Will Reeves: Earn and Play For Free Bitcoin with Fold, Building a Company in a Bear Market
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of 'Coin Stories', Natalie Burnell interviews Will Reeves, CEO of Fold, discussing his journey from a small-town upbringing in the wine industry to building a Bitcoin rewards debit card. They explore the importance of Bitcoin as an on-ramp for new users, the challenges of working with legacy financial systems, and the optimism Bitcoin brings in a bear market.
Takeaways
- 🎙️ The podcast 'Coin Stories' focuses on interviews with leaders in Bitcoin, finance, politics, and philosophy, aiming to educate and entertain without providing financial advice.
- 📈 The host emphasizes the importance of doing one's own research before making investment decisions, acknowledging varying risk tolerances among individuals.
- 🤝 The show is sponsored, and the host is selective about partnerships, indicating a commitment to quality and alignment with the show's values.
- 🪙 The first sponsor highlighted is Swan, a Bitcoin-only company that promotes saving and self-custody of Bitcoin, offering educational resources and financial services.
- 💡 Swan's mission is to educate future Bitcoiners and offers services like IRA tax loss harvesting and private client services, encouraging a daily deposit method similar to dollar-cost averaging.
- 👋 The guest, Will Reeves, CEO of Fold, discusses his background and upbringing in the wine industry, which contrasts with his current role in the tech and Bitcoin space.
- 🍷 Reeves' experiences in the wine industry, including witnessing its corporatization, influenced his understanding of economic dynamics and the value of low time preference.
- 🌱 The conversation touches on the importance of proof of work, the comparison of Bitcoin's growth with traditional industries, and the need for a stable and predictable monetary system.
- 💼 Reeves shares his journey from journalism to politics to tech startups, highlighting a shift from observation to creation and a search for meaningful work.
- 🛒 Fold's business model is based on rewarding everyday consumers with Bitcoin for their purchases, positioning itself as an accessible on-ramp to Bitcoin ownership.
- 🌐 Fold operates globally and has managed to secure partnerships with traditional financial institutions like Visa, demonstrating the growing acceptance of Bitcoin in the mainstream market.
Q & A
What is the main focus of the 'Coin Stories' podcast?
-The 'Coin Stories' podcast focuses on featuring leading voices in Bitcoin, financial markets, investing, political structures, philosophy, and more. It aims to educate and entertain, but does not provide financial advice.
Why did the host choose to partner with Swan Bitcoin?
-The host partnered with Swan Bitcoin because it is a Bitcoin-only company focused on helping people save for their future and self-custody their Bitcoin, rather than trade it. Swan's mission aligns with educating future bitcoiners and offering services like IRA and tax-loss harvesting.
What is Fold and how does it relate to Bitcoin?
-Fold is a company that offers a Bitcoin rewards debit card and a shopping app. It allows users to earn Bitcoin on everyday purchases, providing an easy on-ramp to Bitcoin for people who are new to cryptocurrency.
What was Will Reeves' upbringing like, and how did it influence his perspective?
-Will Reeves grew up in Glen Ellen, Napa, in Sonoma, Northern California, in a family that worked in a winery. His experiences in a small town with close-knit culture and witnessing the economic dynamics of the wine industry influenced his understanding of low time preference and the importance of aligning with one's values.
How did the wine industry's changes impact the local community and Reeves' views on business?
-The influx of corporate conglomerates buying family wineries led to a shift in the local community, with a decrease in local high school population and an increase in second homes. This change influenced Reeves' views on the importance of sustainable, family-owned businesses and the negative impacts of corporate takeovers.
What was the initial concept behind Fold and how did it evolve?
-The initial concept behind Fold was a gift card exchange where users could sell unwanted gift cards for Bitcoin. It evolved into a rewards program and a debit card that allows users to earn Bitcoin on everyday purchases, aiming to onboard the masses to Bitcoin.
How does Fold differentiate itself from other Bitcoin on-ramps?
-Fold differentiates itself by focusing on consumers and rewards programs rather than traders and investors. It provides an easy on-ramp to Bitcoin through everyday purchases and does not require users to go through KYC or set up a wallet.
What is the significance of Fold's partnership with Visa?
-The partnership with Visa is significant as it allows Fold to offer a Bitcoin rewards debit card that operates on Visa's network. This partnership demonstrates that traditional financial institutions can align with and benefit from Bitcoin-focused companies.
How has Fold managed to grow and succeed in a bear market for Bitcoin?
-Fold has managed to grow in a bear market by continuing to build value and demonstrating its reliability and alignment with user and partner incentives. It has also focused on expanding globally and securing strong partnerships in the traditional financial industry.
What are some of the challenges and opportunities that Reeves sees in the current bear market?
-Reeves sees the current bear market as an opportunity to demonstrate Bitcoin's stability and value, especially in contrast to the economic instability experienced elsewhere. The challenge lies in maintaining growth and credibility during a time when Bitcoin's reputation may be less bright.
What is Reeves' view on the role of optimism and building a family in relation to Bitcoin?
-Reeves views optimism and building a family as inherently optimistic actions that align with the ethos of Bitcoin. He believes that fostering optimism, whether through Bitcoin, family, or community, can create a positive environment that contrasts with the broader pessimistic outlook prevalent in society.
Outlines
🎙️ Introduction to Coin Stories Podcast
The host introduces the 'Coin Stories' podcast, which features leading voices in Bitcoin, financial markets, investing, political structures, philosophy, and more. The host encourages viewers to subscribe, like the video, and turn on notifications for new content. They clarify that the podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not provide financial advice. The host also mentions their sponsors and introduces the first sponsor, Swan, a Bitcoin-focused company that helps people save and self-custody their Bitcoin. Swan's mission is to educate future bitcoiners and offer services like retirement planning and tax loss harvesting.
🌱 Will Reeves' Origin Story and Background
Will Reeves, CEO of Fold, shares his origin story, growing up in Glen Ellen and Napa in Northern California. He talks about his family's deep roots in the wine industry and his early jobs in vineyards. Reeves describes the small-town culture and the annual influx of migrant workers during the grape harvest. He reflects on the economic dynamics of the wine industry, noting how small family wineries often struggle with high costs and leverage, leading to consolidation by corporate entities. This background provides a foundation for understanding the principles of low time preference and the importance of proof of work, which he later relates to Bitcoin.
🍷 The Impact of Corporate Takeovers on the Wine Industry
Will Reeves discusses the transformation of the wine industry, particularly in Sonoma, where he grew up. He observes how small family wineries are being replaced by corporate conglomerates, leading to a loss of local culture and community. Reeves highlights the challenges faced by family wineries, including the high costs and long time horizons associated with biodynamic farming. He contrasts this with the corporate approach, which often prioritizes economies of scale and cost-effectiveness over traditional farming practices. This shift has resulted in a decline in quality and a loss of local identity in the wine industry.
🌐 Global Trends in Vineyard Ownership and the Wine Industry
The conversation turns to global trends in vineyard ownership, with examples from Italy and Argentina. Reeves notes the influx of foreign investors, particularly Chinese companies, buying up historic family wineries. He reflects on the impact of this consolidation on the quality and authenticity of wine production. Reeves also discusses the challenges faced by local communities as corporate interests often prioritize profit over local traditions and quality. The discussion underscores the broader economic forces at play, which are reminiscent of the food industry, where a few large corporations control a majority of brands.
🚀 From Journalism to Politics to Startups: Reeves' Career Journey
Will Reeves shares his career journey, starting with his aspirations to become a journalist and his work with migrant workers. He then transitioned into politics, working on Senate campaigns in San Francisco, but quickly became disillusioned with the fundraising aspect and the power dynamics within the political sphere. Reeves eventually found his passion in the startup world, where he could create and build things. He discusses his experiences working at Google and other tech companies, as well as starting his own ventures. This journey led him to Bitcoin and the realization that he could combine his passion for building with his belief in Bitcoin.
🔑 The Genesis of Fold and Its Mission
Will Reeves explains the inception of Fold, starting with a side project of exchanging gift cards for Bitcoin. He saw the potential to use Bitcoin as a rewards mechanism for everyday purchases, rather than just as a trading asset. Reeves recognized the opportunity to tap into the vast market of consumers who participate in rewards programs, particularly women and young people. He envisioned Fold as a way to introduce these demographics to Bitcoin through a familiar and accessible platform. The goal was to create an on-ramp for the masses to start earning and learning about Bitcoin through their everyday spending.
💳 The Fold Bitcoin Rewards Debit Card and Its Appeal
The host and Will Reeves discuss the Fold Bitcoin rewards debit card, which allows users to earn Bitcoin on their everyday purchases. Reeves highlights the appeal of earning actual Bitcoin rather than traditional rewards points, which can suffer from inflation. The Fold card offers a fun and engaging experience, with features like spinning a wheel for additional rewards. The host shares her enthusiasm for the card and its ease of use, emphasizing how it can help people dip their toes into Bitcoin without the need for complex wallet setups.
🤝 Partnering with Legacy Payment Systems
Will Reeves discusses the challenges and strategies of partnering with traditional payment systems like Visa for Fold's Bitcoin rewards debit card. He emphasizes the importance of meeting people where they are, using familiar tools like debit cards to introduce them to Bitcoin. Reeves explains how Fold had to prove the value of Bitcoin to merchants and traditional financial institutions, demonstrating that Bitcoin users are a motivated and loyal customer base. He also mentions the recent expansion of Fold's rewards program globally, despite the bear market, showcasing the company's resilience and growth.
🌳 Building in a Bear Market: Opportunities and Challenges
Will Reeves reflects on the experience of building Fold during a bear market, highlighting the opportunities it presents for value creation. He contrasts this with the frenzied growth of bull markets, where it's harder to lay a solid foundation. Reeves discusses how bear markets allow companies like Fold to demonstrate their credibility and reliability, attracting loyal customers and partners. He also touches on the broader economic context, noting how current economic instability underscores the need for Bitcoin's stability and sound monetary policy.
👨👩👧👦 The Importance of Optimism and Building for the Future
In the final segment, Will Reeves emphasizes the importance of optimism in the face of a pessimistic world. He draws parallels between the stability and predictability of Bitcoin and the act of building a family, both of which represent a belief in the future. Reeves encourages the Bitcoin community to support open-source projects and educators, as well as to engage in optimistic behaviors like starting families and building communities. He concludes by inviting feedback and suggestions for Fold and expressing gratitude for the Bitcoin community.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Bitcoin
💡Financial markets
💡Investing
💡Political structures
💡Philosophy
💡Sponsors
💡Educational purposes
💡Risk tolerance
💡Self-custody
💡DeFi (Decentralized Finance)
💡Rewards program
Highlights
Introduction of 'Coin Stories' podcast featuring leading voices in Bitcoin, finance, and philosophy.
Emphasis on the podcast's educational and entertainment purpose and disclaimer about financial advice.
Sponsorship acknowledgment and introduction of Swan Bitcoin as a partner focused on Bitcoin savings and education.
Discussion on the mission to educate future Bitcoiners and retirement planning with Bitcoin.
Interview with Will Reeves, CEO of Fold, about making Bitcoin accessible and its integration with daily life.
Reeves' personal origin story from a small town in Northern California with deep ties to the wine industry.
Insights into the socio-economic dynamics of the wine industry and its parallels with Bitcoin's financial philosophy.
Reeves' transition from journalism to politics and then to tech startups, highlighting his journey to Bitcoin.
The concept of Bitcoin as a tool for remittance and its use during Reeves' time in Argentina during hyperinflation.
The founding story of Fold and its mission to bring Bitcoin to the masses through rewards and everyday purchases.
Fold's strategy to leverage existing consumer behaviors and traditional financial rails to promote Bitcoin adoption.
The importance of building during a bear market in the Bitcoin cycle and Fold's approach to growth and partnerships.
Fold's global expansion announcement during a bear market and its implications for the Bitcoin industry.
Reflections on the current economic climate and how Bitcoin provides stability and an optimistic outlook.
Discussion on the importance of optimism in the face of global challenges and Bitcoin's role as an 'anti-nihilism' tool.
Encouragement for the Bitcoin community to support open-source projects and educators for long-term growth.
Final thoughts on the significance of community, feedback, and the future of Bitcoin as shared by Will Reeves.
Transcripts
hi everyone thanks so much for checking
out my show coin stories where I get to
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to do your own research before making
any investment decision and be aware of
your risk tolerance I'm able to produce
this show thanks to my sponsors and I'm
very picky about who I choose to partner
with so I hope you take the time to
listen to the ad reads throughout the
show alright now to my first partner
where I buy my Bitcoin Swan I partnered
with Swan because it is a Bitcoin only
company focused on helping people save
for their future and self-custody their
Bitcoin not trade it you can start a
direct deposit to take advantage of
Bitcoin as a savings technology and
learn how to take it off the exchange
Swan's mission is to educate 10 million
future bitcoiners through free resources
and media projects like hard money Swann
also offers retirement planning with an
IRA tax loss harvesting home equity
conversion and a white glove Private
Client Service IU Swan to dollar cost
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I add to my future nest egg and lower my
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10 in free Bitcoin when you sign up head
to swannbitcoin.com Natalie Burnell
welcome back to coin stories I'm so
excited to have with me today will
Reeves he's the CEO of fold and if you
watch my show you know that fold is one
of my main Partners I'm super grateful
because it's one of the best ways to get
people into Bitcoin for the first time
learning about it and earning it I have
an alarm so I can spend my spin my wheel
and not forget and I'm excited to hear
how you built the company thanks so much
for joining me will
you're very good at that Natalie um I am
absolutely happy to be here it's been a
long time coming I think and uh yeah
excited to chat okay so let's let's
start with your origin story because
that's one of the reasons why people
tune into my show is to hear the the
backstories of all the great bitcoiners
so where are you from and tell me a
little bit about your upbringing
I uh come from a place along very close
to the center of tech but and culturally
very far away I come from I was born in
uh Glen Ellen and Napa in Sonoma and
Northern California
and uh to a family that met at a winery
and uh worked at a winery together all
their lives and uh really it was in that
small town where you know have very
close-knit friends and really my first
jobs was a seller rat
um you know pruning Vines digging
ditches really whatever and uh it all
seems like a far cry from where I am
today in technology but uh it certainly
was you know what rooted me what gives
me a sense of place in the world
wait I want to hear more about that
traveled a little bit in that area I
used to live in Sacramento so it was
close by to go to you know Napa Sonoma
Healdsburg but what's it like growing up
because I can only imagine it's it's a
lot of families with Vineyards and
they've been in the family for
Generations I mean what what was your
upbringing there like it's Sonoma was an
interesting place because you know it's
proxates an hour from San Francisco but
uh it is you know when I grew up I
believe the town was a couple thousand
people and it was really made up of
people that worked and ran the wineries
and people that worked at them and with
this really interesting thing that would
happen every year during Harvest where
you'd get an influx of thousands of
people migrant workers coming through
who would actually do the Dirty Work and
hard work of of harvesting the grapes
and they would stay for a couple months
and then move on and there was this
interesting cycle and so the town had a
really
um uh
very close-knit culture but people were
extremely stratified like you said you
had people who owned the Estates and
Wineries and then you know you'd be
playing on the soccer team or baseball
team with their kids and then right next
to you would be kids of those that were
actually working on the on the wineries
picking the grapes you know building and
all these things that brought us all
together but really allowed you to live
a life very much in proximity to you
know all the sides that we see in
society so it was a really great kind of
small town a microcosm for you know what
the rest of the world is yeah microcosm
is a good word because you're right if I
think about you know someone who might
grow up in that area
wine making sounds like a very lucrative
business you know but you don't think
about the fact that it is probably an
even more diverse Community than some of
the areas that I've lived in in big big
cities so what's maybe something that
would surprise people about that
industry or I mean how how involved were
you were you were you ever you know
mixing wines or stomping on grapes oh
yes I I did it all when you're there you
just kind of Pop around to whatever job
is available and so you know I've really
done it all from pruning from uh in the
production wine tasting uh really
everything and your friends are making
wine you know so so cool the the
it's an interesting place because
um uh you're you're able to get into it
like everyone's born into this right
you're just kind of moving on moving
through whatever path you have and uh
when I was young the town was a couple
thousand people uh when I when I lasts
around 18 that was you know 10 plus
thousand people it had grown so fast and
the makeup of the entire town grew it
went from you know small family wineries
to now corporate conglomerates coming in
and buying all wineries because what you
don't know is that people think people
think wineries are very lucrative and
huge businesses but really at the end of
the day it's an agricultural uh Endeavor
and you know when it's a family doing it
you're taking out massive loans and
leverage very similar to what you know
Family Farms maybe in the midwest would
have done and what where this kind of
World Views kind of start to mix is that
creates a lot when you have small
entities taking on a bunch of Leverage
to sustain a lifestyle to do what they
really want to do to build a craft that
you know you plant grapes and you're not
reaping Those Grapes to be able to you
know make wine for almost for years
sometimes three to five years and so
it's extremely low time preference thing
but it requires huge upfront investment
belief but it also creates in a world
where you know there's access to a lot
of easy money and when hard times come
families are put in a really tight spot
and so you saw over kind of my specific
time in Sonoma where these Family Farms
every single year every crisis
especially 08 crisis were just bought up
by Massive conglomerates world you know
producers and now the majority of wine
making in that area is all corporate you
know corporate and so it's it it changed
right in front of my eyes really wow you
know I wanted to ask you about this it
sounds like there should almost be a
chapter of safe's next book called Fiat
wine because it sounds like it's a lot
like the you know the food industry
where you you go to the grocery store
you think you have a lot of choice and
options but actually all of those Brands
supposedly that you see are owned by
like eight companies total and there's
been this consolidation of capital
because of our money being broken
um so that's really interesting because
I I guess I didn't think about it in in
the wine making industry but did that
inform maybe your views or plant a seed
so does speak where you might appreciate
Bitcoin as you came to see you know
behind the scenes how this industry
worked
I think that what it planted was very
fundamental con concepts of proof of
work of low time preference of putting
something that you truly believe in
behind your passion to then uh support
you and your family through generations
you know the winery that I really grew
up working on was a Family Winery that
before them was Winery a family Wineries
and just kind of it was a a passed down
type of thing and
um they farmed in a very specific way
what's called biodynamic farming and
there was there's no way a corporation
would come in and say I'm going to start
a biodynamic farm because number one it
is cost way too much money it produces a
lot less grapes uh most of a lot of the
land that you would normally use to
produce the grapes you're allocating
towards
um Gardens and things to attract certain
pollinators and and help you with pest
prevention so it's just a very from a
you know a corporate standpoint of let's
churn this out economies of scale it's a
very bad bad way to farm from their
perspective it's just totally different
than factory farming but this is one of
the wineries that uh was turned over was
bought by a corporation why because they
wanted to have the mantle of an idea of
a biodynamic family farm that was able
to kind of be a brand that would sit on
top of all their others and give it kind
of a Halo of of this you know organic
biodynamic family yet all those Concepts
were being essentially taken out from it
which is very similar to stuff that safe
would talk about there of you know
things traditional ways of being done
that kind of uh because from a cost
perspective and things starts to get
removed although the the these symbols
and the artifacts remain there and so it
creates a really strange wait is is this
wait the family doesn't run this or it's
not biodynamic they're you know so it's
it it was uh definitely informative
about understanding two things about
Bitcoin both the
um aspect that nothing comes for free
money should not be the production of
money should not be free it also should
be not dependent on you know a small
group of people's decisions on how
that's done we know just like growing
grapes you follow patterns of nature
that are not things that you can change
it's something that you have to follow
and everyone has the same rules so I'd
say from that perspective there is that
and then there's also just the trauma of
seeing your town which is one of the
most fertile beautiful places to grow up
best culture ever to now becoming what
is essentially a husk of its former self
most people are there are having second
homes the local high school
um I believe will have 20 percent of the
student population that it did when I
was there so it's just the idea of
families and everything is just being
evacuated because of the kind of
economic dynamics that that it's that it
that are you know prevailing now
that is so that makes me really sad you
know I I actually not a lot of people
know this but I actually lived and
worked in Italy for a couple of years
and I worked at a television station in
oh this was a long time ago now but we
did a special a series on The Vineyards
of Tuscany and I was like is this my job
this is pretty awesome so all the all
the vineyard owners came and they showed
off their wines
um but what was most fascinating that I
didn't realize I would learn during that
process is that so many of the
of these beautiful wineries across
Tuscany which is known for some of the
rarest and best quality red wines in the
world they were being bought up by
Foreign investors I mean Chinese
companies were coming in and buying what
was once in an Italian family for
centuries and you know I didn't
understand back then right but now I
think about that experience and I think
wow it's happening all over the world
you know the the capital is
concentrating in the hands of a few
people they get to expand to different
Industries and and create these you know
conglomerates and and in my opinion the
quality goes down ultimately at the end
of the day and that's there's something
really sad about that I mean you know
what was once belonging to you know
generations of one Italian family some
someone comes in who may or may not
actually be as invested especially
locally in producing value and jobs and
it's really sad that it seems to be
happening everywhere yeah you know so
the point of you know not only quality
comes down but but you know people you
know I grew up with Vineyards right
behind me and it was in my Vineyard but
when I was family owned you know that
the family is living there too how they
would treat their Vines what they would
treat them with would be something that
they were subject to and I would be
subject to now as that disappears that
line between hey let's it's good to grow
biodynamically because I'm living and
eating here versus now hey someone you
know on the East Coast who now owns this
may make a totally different decision
that would have a different impact and
so you know it's it it's it's been it's
sad it took me a while to you know
especially the winery that my parents
met at that turned over of my friends
all that you know most of my friends
growing up stopped going into the wine
industry they went into growing cannabis
up more more North and so they were kind
of going to their own Frontier but uh
really what's happened to the wine
industry the most the most interesting
things
um is a whole different you know there's
no such thing really as hey I'm gonna
get my plot of land and I'm gonna grow
grapes and then I'm gonna grow you know
make my wine and produce my wine there
now it is I'm gonna go Source grapes
from someone else from somewhere
multiple parts of California and I'll
find a way to produce it myself which
has brought down the cost of cap and the
cost of barrier to entry so you're
getting to see a lot more new influx of
new wine makers coming to the space that
are doing more interesting things so it
it definitely has had bad implications
no doubt especially for a specific place
but it's done interesting things on the
periphery too and you know in France
there's whole you know quote-unquote
terrorist organizations that are all
about stopping these corporate takeovers
of wineries they'll go and blow up
wineries that are you know bought by you
know you know International wine wine
fund you know so why are we not drinking
wine while talking right it's that's a
that's a good question that's a good
question it's almost five o'clock where
I am
um okay well so I want to hear your
Bitcoin journey and your career Journey
so uh you obviously are not running a
Vineyard you're running getting a
Bitcoin rewards debit card and uh and a
really cool app to help people learn
about Bitcoin and start getting in the
game so tell me a little bit about your
Bitcoin journey and how you ended up
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all right that's that kind of starts so
I I initially in out of Sonoma when I
was like what I really want to do I'm
gonna become a journalist I followed
migrant workers and took a lot of photos
it was like oh this is a path people
recognize that this is going great I'm
learning Spanish this is fun it's part
something I care about uh and so I was
you know I went to school and very
quickly said you know I went worked at
the uh this the University newspaper uh
I ran the Berkeley political review I
thought that was exactly what I wanted
and then I get to a point where I get
burnt out on
I think it was being stuck as an
observer and a commentator on things and
I realized that's just not who I am I
need to be I need to be doing I want to
be creating the news and so I was like I
know what I want to do I want to go into
politics which was the worst of my D you
know career detours and so I went to
work for a politician in uh in San
Francisco we were doing Senate campaigns
and
um very quickly there became so jaded
about the whole thing instead of doing
like I wanted to do and you know
creating stories I was begging for money
now it's not too different from what
you're doing at a startup now but anyway
um it was something that very quickly
became this is just this is in a very
quick amount of time I realized how much
I needed to go in a different direction
but there are consequences when you're
begging for money for the most part in a
small business there aren't consequences
when you get elected just just that
caveat it's it's so true it's so true
and the you know not to name names but I
was you know working on uh you know
campaigns where these were power Brokers
of San Francisco that you know Legacy
generations and you know you could be
great granddaughter great grandson and
be like I want to run and be the senator
here and that was a viable path and it
was like not so much nepotism and it
just felt it just felt bad and so I said
okay I need to go back to the drawing
board what the hell do I want to do
um and that is when being in the Bay
Area what else are you gonna do it's
like okay this is wild west of startup
and uh this was the you know birth of
the you know kind of Mobile you know
hyper growth period and there was just
opportunities everywhere and so uh I
started said you know this is something
I can do I can do what I like to do I
like to work with small groups of people
that really care about something uh you
know just muscle something out find a
you know group of early Believers and
then scale something out just make will
it into reality that was what I loved
and loved to do and so after
graduating Berkeley I kind of went in
and out of you know started a couple
startups of my own went into
um a couple that I had joined early in
between Rand stints at you know some of
the big names at Google and and others
and so I just got to see all aspects of
you know Tech and uh uh you know both
from the creating you know your own
concept from zero to one to working on
something that is you know scaling and
you know taking over the world and you
know made some good and bad ways and so
it was a a great experience that you
know allowed me to get there the problem
was what initially had me started
wanting to do journalism was I wanted to
really care about what I did and a lot
of things I was building which I loved
it didn't have that element of oh I love
this I believe in this I'm passionate
about it and so it still wasn't quite
right at that point
so had you discovered Bitcoin along this
journey of working in startups and
starting them yourself
yeah I think
um I I was Bitcoin showed up multiple
times you know as it does to people that
it takes a bit to get there but you know
I uh after at Berkeley I had a couple
interactions uh with people there up in
Sonoma there was a group so I I ran a um
uh was on the board for an organization
that brought services to migrant workers
coming through the valley so we'd say
Let's Get You legal help we've got
someone to be legal medical and we'd
bring people in to help them bring new
you know tools Services help for them
because it was totally marginalized you
know group that would just be
essentially powering this place but was
given zero you know skin in the game for
and so one of this group was a group
from Berkeley who came up and this guy
spoke about Bitcoin as a tool of
remittance back then and so at that
point I was just like it's a tool I saw
it as purely a tool a means of doing
something that wasn't a you know wasn't
much more than that just like a hammer
it wasn't it wasn't the movement in my
head at all or anything
um so I had that I I was fairly involved
in Occupy Wall Street in Oakland and yes
I was at Berkeley so there are a lot of
things going on at Berkeley you know
that uh that brought me into uh when
crossed paths with you know a lot of
different movements and things like this
back then and one of them was uh Occupy
Wall Street and uh so that was one of
the first times that I experienced that
as a tool because if you recall a lot of
uh the payment applications
um paypals venmos were just shutting
down these accounts everywhere and we
were using Bitcoin wallets to pay off
vendors to receive donations and it was
really amazing and so again for me
seeing it as a tool you know not someone
pitching a tool that someone else needed
like they were doing in the micro organs
but to me it was like oh this is this is
great but it was still very much a tool
semi-associated I still didn't quite get
the connection between you know Occupy
Wall Streets tenants and Bitcoin it was
more here's a tool to help you do what
you're going to do there
um and uh I my last year at Berkeley was
down in Argentina and it was with a
family guy I think this is I think it
was three months
after
uh Bitcoin went live and had the first
couple blocks remind I was like down
there in March or April something like
that it was also during one of
Argentina's a write-up uh before one of
their debt restructuring so just
hyperinflation I was going down there
being like well my Dollar's going really
far but wow I had I ended up living with
a family there who uh the I had a big
family dinner one time and I was sat
next to this guy who's a developer there
and he was like you heard of this thing
called Bitcoin uh and he put a lot of
his you know a lot of his wealth into it
and he very much someone who I've you
know kept upped you know kept up with
for a while uh was able to preserve his
wealth away from multiple debt
restructurings in Argentina in a way
that was you know absolutely blew my
mind and so you know so many of these
times were just like
Bitcoin as as a means of storing well
Bitcoin is a means of remittance of an
Unstoppable payment all of the great
headlines and I was still like you know
this is you know it's a kind of cool
thing on the side I didn't realize
this is the thing I need to be working
on this is actually what I need to be
working on it that didn't happen until
much later meeting meeting a friend at a
company I was also working at who was
building Bitcoin companies and Bitcoin
startups and I was realized wait this is
a this is a thing much bigger than these
isolated tools that I had and so it was
um I think the time between my first
interaction 2012 or so uh
actually using it and then actually
started it was you know
six years four years four four to five
years something like that so you know as
they say Bitcoin needs to hit you in the
head like three or four times before you
actually do something about it very true
guilty I first heard about it from from
people in San Francisco while I was
living in Sacramento and I dismissed it
and I wish I could go back in time
because I had more money it was cheaper
and I had like more savings at the time
that I could have put in but anyway we
all get it at the price we deserve
um okay so so let's let's share the
story of fold then
um I would love to hear how you came up
with the idea why you felt that there
was a need in the space for this and
just what was it like building a company
because I think that you know this space
is growing so quickly there is so much
energy and momentum even in a bear
Market people are building these apps
are gonna help onboard people and get us
to that hyper bitcoinization and and
some an app like yours is really helpful
because a lot of people I think want to
dabble a little bit they want to put a
toe in and they want to do it in a way
where they don't have to learn about a
cold storage wallet yet maybe they will
down the road but they just you know
maybe they just want to earn some SATs
by buying their Amazon gift card or
heading to the grocery store so tell me
about you know the origins of fold
now fold has had a couple iterations and
the first time that I you know uh
learned that I could build not only have
this thing that I do and love is build
things but I could do it for something
that I'm really passionate about I was
the first time I saw these two things
come together was working I was
Consulting for Google in the head of
Tech on like on my project was ended up
being my co-founder and he had started a
very you know side thing of hey let's I
you can sell me a gift card and I'll
give you Bitcoin it's essentially like a
exchange like a non-kyc exchange and I
was like oh my God this is this is
awesome you're helping people get
Bitcoin because they don't you know get
all these gift cards that they don't
want and they could sell it to you and
you're going to give them Bitcoin it's
great
um and so I started to think you know
could I work on this we had started to
build a relationship we'd kind of go
back and forth on where this idea could
go
and
to me it was just clear that this idea
of what Bitcoin is was way too big to be
something that was only serving the
small group of people who just already
wanted more Bitcoin and allow them a new
way of getting Bitcoin I needed I was
like this thing is huge why don't more
people know about this why doesn't my
mom have Bitcoin right now you know all
these people in Sonoma who maybe shared
a lot of these things of being
predisposed to Low Time preference you
know long-term investment why aren't why
you know proof of work all this stuff
why these are Concepts that should be
more widely known and really I looked
around the space and all the on-ramps
were about mostly about trading you know
just how to flip to get you know to get
rich and play the you know the gamble
the gamble game and then there was some
about investing more like hey it's you
know allocate one percent of your
portfolio to bitcoin
but really those audiences around that
are already already people who already
invest it's not new people coming into
space it's you know Traders were already
there and they're already being well
served by you know name you know XYZ
going casino and I looked at it and
say how do we how do we access and tap
into a much larger market how do we do
that because at the end of the day fold
is very much like an exchange you earn
rewards and we convert that into Bitcoin
for you
but the difference is instead of
focusing on Traders and investors we
focus on just consumers people who buy
things and people who want to buy things
and
looked at the problem and said well I
think we should work on let's tap into
this let's get more bitcoiners in and
then we'll work on all the other things
that we wanted and so looking at the
opportunity I saw the rewards you know
90 plus percent of American families are
participating rewards programs
um the most of the people who are active
in rewards programs are women and young
people both demographics that are not
well you know have never had seen a
Bitcoin product really tailored to them
that provided value and so rewards very
quickly became a very easy way to think
about onboarding the masses and
um you know with rewards also you don't
need a wallet you don't need to buy it
you don't need to set up you know go
through kyc it provided this perfect
on-ramp in the Bitcoin like you said of
just starting to get a hold of some
start to learn about it have it Be A
Conversation Piece when you're with your
friends at dinner and say I have a
little bit of Bitcoin and then it's it
kind of creates this Snowball Effect and
so that's where the idea of fold came it
was like hey we had this gift card thing
an exchange thing but we don't have the
right end uh end consumer for this idea
who's is much bigger than you know than
it is it's way way bigger for and so we
needed to match match it to something
that was able to capture millions of
people you know that instead of just the
people who are already you know already
knew about it and so that's kind of the
origin of where folds idea fell into
place
well you're so right I mean everyone
wants to earn rewards for just the
everyday purchases that they make and
the ones that I think became the most
popular had to do with travel I
certainly before I got the fold card
um wanted you know my airline miles or
my hotel points and you realize those
suffer from inflation as well because
they're just the company's coins
whereas this you're earning actual
Bitcoin and uh and I have my fold I have
my full card I'm gonna show it because I
carry it with me everywhere and by the
way guys will didn't ask for this
interview I'm just obsessed with this
company and so I wanted to bring them on
because I'm really proud to partner with
you guys and I use this all the time and
it's an easy way to tell people about it
because you spin a wheel and you feel
like you're on Wheel of Fortune which
was always the dream show that I wanted
to get on but I didn't
um but I did want to ask you you know
you you have Partnerships with like the
traditional you know the Fiat payment
rails this is I know that we all want to
Envision a world where we have this
circular Bitcoin economy and everyone's
just transacting in stats but the
reality is that we still have these
on-ramps and off ramps and we have these
Legacy companies like Visa that you know
you have to work with so can you talk a
little bit about that and where are the
two intersect and you know could Bitcoin
obfuscate companies like that it's time
for a quick break to hear these messages
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health insurance costs can be sky high
today and you essentially send money
every month to a massive Corporation the
health insurance black hole as I call it
and if you don't need any health care
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if you do need to go to a doctor you end
up having to pay even more out of pocket
especially if you end up as one of the
20 of claims on average that aren't
covered with crowd Health you you pay a
small monthly fee that goes into an
account that you actually accrue over
time and is yours to use or keep if you
ever leave you can even save that money
in Bitcoin crowd health is all about
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everyone's health care so if something
does happen or you have a doctor visit
crowd health will negotiate down the
medical bill much lower than what
insurance would be and then the
community helps you cover it and in
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for more information you can head to
join crowdhealth.com Natalie and if you
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itrust.capital Natalie Brunell yeah
that's a that's a good and big question
you know uh part of our strategy was to
meet people where they are already right
we're already buying stuff we're already
going to Amazon we're already going to
Starbucks let's make it so that you're
earning Bitcoin every time you you do
that and it's easy to say Bitcoin is you
know it's harder to make the case
against someone brand new that Bitcoin
is a better version of the dollar that K
that creates some a little bit more
education it's really easy to say that
Bitcoin is a better version of a hotel
Point reward Point Airline mile that
they themselves know get devalued and
you know have no value in many cases and
so it's like a it's a perfect thing and
said hey let's change the discussion
right now instead of Bitcoin versus the
dollar and the FED all that stuff hey
Bitcoin versus your reward point it wins
every single time and so uh the job was
just to meet people where they are let's
make it very easy for them let's have
very familiar looking uh you know uh
tools that they can use to start this
journey and so that was a debit card
runs on Visa rails it was was our
Merchant offered networks which is gift
cards and card linked offers soon to be
and these things that people already do
that requires very little change in any
any behaviors at all but to your point
that requires us to go to Legacy Fiat
traditional companies which Bitcoin is
definitely a challenger against them and
say hey Bitcoin is going to be good for
you and here's why and that conversation
has always been very hard for a Bitcoin
company to make number one because early
Bitcoin when Bitcoin was early the only
real use case that was successful was
just trading was just high frequency
let's try to flip it buy coins and trade
back and forth it wasn't really relevant
to you know Mass Market
and so when fold came out the vision was
hey let's create a rewards company that
uh can change people's loyalty they're
gonna if you if you know if Uber comes
to us uh you know you're gonna have Lyft
wanted to come to us too because people
are going to earn Bitcoin by you know
going with Uber and using this thing we
had to prove that out over we had to
prove that over probably over two years
before merchants started to really
understand the power of this that you
know number one bit you know Bitcoin the
people that hold Bitcoin and care about
it is not a couple thousand people it's
tens of millions of people and they are
more motivated than your average
consumer and so they will change their
allegiance their loyalty and full got
all this data around this so that we
could show that someone will who came in
saying I am always you know Allegiant
you know have allegiance to this company
changed immediately when the competitor
comes on board with fold and it was a
really powerful value proposition for
these Merchants because you know before
Bitcoin and adoption in terms of
merchants was always like accept Bitcoin
accept Bitcoin as a payment
and they would do that and no one would
use Bitcoin as a payment for many
reasons number one because not many
people had Bitcoin number two now many
people wanted to spend it and so these
Merchants would say well Bitcoin didn't
help my business in fact it created a
bad PR moment for us and more
complicated
um you know payment uh processing for me
but when you talk about it from a
rewards perspective and say hey I will
bring hundreds of thousands of new
customers to you who will totally become
your most loyal customers that is when
they start to think about this a little
bit more and so we're able to create
these Partnerships from there Visa saw
how fast our Rewards program is growing
we approach them with the idea of
creating the Bitcoin Rewards Card uh
they said great we were the first
company Bitcoin company accepted in
their Fast Track program we brought it
to market the full debit card became one
of the fastest growing debit card
programs ever to launch on Visa and what
it did was it just it it one of these
things those numbers don't lie like we
can talk a lot about you know why or why
not you should or not adopt Bitcoin but
that the world really works according to
show me the numbers show me the money
and this our conversations got easier
and easier number one because we are a
good company that takes care of our
users and our partners we don't do a lot
of the things that unfortunately loses a
lot of credibility for our industry that
we've seen over the past couple of
months but also we bring good business
to those that work with us and so that
is just open doors time and time again
and that's the blueprint we kind of run
on is let's align incentives and just
grow
right I want to talk a little bit about
how you've been growing in a bear Market
as well you've made some really exciting
announcements and you're right we've
seen some of the other companies wash
away in the space there was another
credit card that offered rewards and now
that company's gone and we don't have to
name it but it's gone and so clearly you
guys have been doing something right can
you talk a little bit about building in
this bear market and the challenges but
also the opportunities maybe it presents
for for the industry you know fold has
now gone through a couple Market Cycles
with with Bitcoin bears and bowls and so
we've been able to learn a little bit
how this this works and uh the bear
markets are for creating all the value
that will be used and demonstrated in
Bull markets if you're trying to do that
during a bull market you're way too late
because the growth is is way too fast
bitcoin's growth Cycles during bull
markets bring in millions of people you
know on a daily basis to this new thing
and exposes brand new people so you
really need to make sure that you can
not only survive through a bear Market
but continue to build and
um build the unfortunate part about that
is a lot of bear markets are also the
times when bitcoin's credibility or
reputation is also not as bright it's
not the hot thing anymore and so it's
harder to get these sometimes it's
harder to build and it's much harder to
build when you have to rely on
Partnerships and so building a a
business that has a good reputation in
bowl and bear markets and that says that
we take care of our customers our
customers are aligned with us our
incentives helps us go and in Bear Mark
and say okay there are these there are
this there's this side of the industry
that for whatever reason made these um
business choices that were bad for their
users and bad for their partners
and then there's this side and this is
companies like fold that we we do it
right we show a pathway number one how
to survive but also how to thrive and
our partners Thrive too watch go go ask
you know go ask a Visa or our banking
Partners or anyone else and they will
Echo this sentiment and this allows us
to continue that momentum through bear
markets so one of the things that we
were able to just announce was
that bold um will be uh operating
globally for our Rewards program and not
only that get get help directly from our
Banking and card processing Partners to
move very fast which is something that's
not nothing ever happens fast in the
traditional banking industry so that was
a huge thing to be able to just get
during a bear Market at the same time I
think three weeks before there was a
Forbes article about how Visa is ending
all relationships with you know crypto
businesses right and you know I'm
sitting on this press release being like
well not this one and that's a lot of
being working in this stage of not just
being the example that you would want to
partner with and just continuous to
focus on that because the more you
demonstrate that the more that in bad
times people are going to stick with you
and be loyal so I think it was a it
really was just a you know a
demonstration of years of work really to
get things like that to happen wow for
sure sure well you know having been
through several Cycles is there any
lesson it that makes Maybe This Bear
Market
different that we can learn from
especially for the newcomers I have a
lot of people who watch the show or or
follow my content because they're trying
to learn and they're they're starting
from Ground Zero they're they're just
dipping their toes in and something like
this might be really interesting to them
because they're just they're already
spending the money right on different
things in their lives and now they can
earn Bitcoin back but what's what's
maybe different about this bear market
and what's the lesson that can be taken
away
this is I think this is one of my
favorite bear markets that we've had and
that's because most of bitcoin's bear
markets have been in times when the
greater economy is either doing okay or
doing very very well and so it's always
hard to have you know Bitcoin go into a
bear Market when everything is ripping
and people are like wow look at what a
you know a scam a failure a debt you
know whatever they're gonna throw at it
in this spare Market not only has
Bitcoin been able to sustain a a you
know the a price floor that is just
phenomenal to me with the implosions
across the you know the the economy but
the economy itself is showing why we
need Bitcoin
um from everything from the recent bank
failures that we had and I issues with
fractional Reserve banking to the idea
of living with inflation or just
printing more money to options that we
do not want to have but those are the
options that we get
um waiting on you know just waiting for
you know uh Powell to come out and say
you know which way the wind blows this
day and none of those things are are
present in Bitcoin and in fact Bitcoin
has looked like a damn stable coin
during this whole whole this time and it
has become a you know a Bastion of
stability which it is and that's a hard
thing for people to get in a time when
the economy is doing all right and
Bitcoins you know doing its price
Discovery but in a time when the whole
wrestle economy is shaking and Bitcoin
is remaining steady a mission is you
know blocks are are being mined block by
block uh the monetary policy isn't
changing it's continuing to add add
value that conversation is much easier
to have with new people than it was
previously and so I really like this
bear Market because of that it's
demonstrating the value of that Bitcoin
can bring into people's lives and you
know for where you know I come from I
graduated college in you know around 08
there's been nothing stable about our
Fiat economy and it's like wait let's
really understand that and once you
think about that and really absorb that
you feel how stable Bitcoin is and what
a stable Foundation it can provide for
families for individuals for businesses
and it's it's a hard thing to learn but
I think this bear Market allows us to
get as close as we've ever been
the thing that you you said about Powell
and
and where the wind's going to Blow In
terms of the monetary policy it
literally just made me think of could
you imagine if in nature there was one
person that decided the weather for like
the wine making industry for example and
the these Vines got water these Vines
got sunshine like what it would never
work right you get to pick winners and
losers and yet we essentially have that
in our our system manipulating the base
layer of our entire economy and how we
function day to day I mean it's just
it's just crazy but you and I were
clearly in college around the same time
and
um one thing that I've you know really
noticed and become passionate about is
this idea that our generation
Millennials young people they really
don't have a seat at the table
financially and and wealth accumulation
and generation is very difficult because
um so few people have have the power and
access to Capital and so how do you
catch up how do you get the house and a
lot of people have put off having
families but you clearly have not you're
a new dad you have a beautiful family
Beauty beautiful wife I hope I get to
see her I don't know if you guys are
going to be at the Bitcoin conference
but um but can you share a little bit
about why that was maybe something that
was important for you because really I
mean today and turn on the news right it
shows the worst of society I'm so
grateful not to be in that industry
anymore but it's like no one's having
kids anymore everyone thinks that the
world is gonna you know blow up in a
climate emergency it's like all so
negative and yet there are bitcoiners
who are thriving and and creating
abundance and building families and
teaching their kids about Bitcoin so why
was that something that was important to
you
I think uh whether we're talking about
Bitcoin or
um families or you know just investing
in things that are long-term is really a
symptom of that exactly right we are
living in a time where the end times
seem nigh and are constantly said you
know repeated to you on from all sides
from all from everybody it's uh very
much a uh a pessimist world right now
and to to feel optimistic about
something to find Pathways and friends
and uh practices and behaviors that that
Foster optimism is I think one of the
most powerful things you can do in this
world right now Bitcoin is one of those
things that is a fundamentally an
optimist
um technology and Optimist culture uh
building a family I believe is a is a
inherently optimistic uh statement it's
it's saying leave in this next
Generation I believe it will be good I
believe things may not be good now but
it will be whether it's something that
we do or that our children do it it is a
believing in a future and I think
um you know I think I certainly have
been in places in my life where I have
been over you know part of a nihilist
you know perspective and I think this
world is breeding a ton of nihilism and
so anything that we can do surrounding
yourself with the things that breed
optimism and it's a kind of a cyclical
thing is is a thing that's going to make
your life your own life way way better
and it's something that will just have
an ambient effect on those around you
and so again there's a couple Optimist
Optimist technologies that we know
Bitcoin
child you know child bearing family
creating uh you know building a home
wherever that is in whatever way you can
imagine spending time with your family
um building Community all those things
uh just just are able to double down on
each other and amplify one another in a
way that you know ultimately you can
kind of create a world that feels super
optimistic even though if you look
Beyond a little bit the rest of the
world may not be living in it but
um I I think it's I think it's the best
most you know revolutionary thing you
can do is is to be an optimist these
days I love it yeah Bitcoin is an
anti-nihilism tool maybe there we go
title of this all right well it's been
such a pleasure to talk to you any just
final thoughts or or messages to share
whether it's about yourself your
thoughts on bitcoin or your company
oh man well I think uh
I all I love the Bitcoin Community House
how tight-knit it is how the fact of you
know when you build something you have
an inherent group of people who are
there waiting to try it to give you
feedback and so anything that you want
to see about fold improved like my DMs
are always open but I encourage you to
um not only do the ones that are you
know are the folds of the world or you
know your other sponsors the good our
good friends Swan but contribute to open
source projects download uh you know
open source applications uh use you know
get on Master these things are the the
Bedrock that will allow us to go for the
next 10 to 15 years whereas these
on-ramps now that we have and that are
building fold being one is is incredible
and it will bring new generations of
bitcoiners to the space that otherwise
would not have entered but at the end of
the day we can't forget the projects
that also normally don't get the funding
they need don't get the users they need
so give them feedback use their you know
use use their tools and I think
ultimately will be set up for a good a
good future with a lot of cool new
things to use and then
um the other bit is uh support our
wonderful Bitcoin Educators and uh
creators you've been an amazing
inspiration for us at fold I know
everyone listens to your show on the
team so uh we are very grateful for you
as well well I'm very grateful I'm
honored to be partnered with fold so I
hope everyone does you know get the
app card you can go to foldapp.com
Natalie they'll give you some free SATs
because they're so generous and it's
just I'm gonna I'm actually gonna put my
dinner tonight with Natalie smolenski
one of my favorite bitcoiners another
Natalie in this space I'm gonna put it
on my fold card tonight but well thank
you so so much and and I hope to get to
see you and your family soon we will
thank you so much for checking out this
episode of coin stories again hit like
on the video and make sure that you have
those notifications on so you don't miss
out on any new episodes and I would love
to hear from you if you have suggestions
feedback guest requests please email me
at Natalie talkingbitcoin.com thanks so
much
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