Prof. Glen Jeffrey | Red Light Revolution: Charge Your Cells, Reduce Ageing & Decrease Inflammation

Summary

本视频脚本探讨了红光和近红外光对人体健康的影响，特别是它们对线粒体功能的积极作用。嘉宾格伦·杰弗瑞博士分享了他从研究果蝇到临床试验的科研之旅，解释了不同光谱的光如何影响人体代谢和衰老。他讨论了现代生活中红光缺失的问题，并提出了通过红光照射改善视力、促进伤口愈合和调节血糖水平的潜力。杰弗瑞博士还强调了自然光的重要性，并对未来光疗法在医疗和日常生活中的应用表示乐观。

Takeaways

• 🧬 研究眼睛和光线对健康的影响，特别是红光和近红外光对线粒体功能的积极作用。
• 👨‍🔬 线粒体对光非常敏感，光线可以调节线粒体的活动，影响代谢和衰老过程。
• 🌞 阳光包含了广泛的光谱，人类只能看到其中的一小部分，而现代生活中我们常常缺乏某些光谱，尤其是红外光。
• 🚨 现代建筑阻挡了阳光中的红外光，这可能导致了所谓的“红光饥饿”现象。
• 👓 红光和近红外光可以深入身体内部，刺激线粒体，对健康有积极影响。
• 🦟 实验显示，红光能够改善蜜蜂和果蝇的代谢健康，类似效应在人类中也得到了验证。
• 🩸 红光疗法被发现可以降低血糖水平，可能对糖尿病管理有积极作用。
• 🌡️ 红光疗法的效果似乎是开关式的，而不是剂量依赖性的，短时间的照射就能产生效果。
• 🌅 早晨是使用红光疗法的最佳时机，因为线粒体在早晨最为活跃。
• 📚 市面上的红光设备效果参差不齐，消费者在购买时应考虑具体的波长和能量输出。

Q & A

红光对线粒体有什么影响？

红光能够调节线粒体的功能，线粒体对长波长的光有响应，可以通过充电来改善线粒体的状态，从而有助于减缓衰老过程和改善新陈代谢。

线粒体与衰老有什么关系？

线粒体在调节人的新陈代谢和衰老速度方面起着关键作用。如果线粒体功能下降，可能会导致衰老加速以及与衰老相关的疾病的发生。

红光疗法在临床试验中的应用是什么？

红光疗法正在从学术研究走向临床试验，研究者正在探索它在改善视力、治疗代谢疾病、帕金森病以及黄斑变性等疾病方面的潜在效果。

为什么说我们可能处于“红光饥饿”状态？

现代建筑通常使用阻挡红外线的玻璃，同时室内使用的LED照明缺乏红光光谱，导致我们接收不到足够的红光，这可能会影响我们的健康。

红光对糖尿病人的血糖水平有何影响？

研究表明，通过红光照射可以激发线粒体更高效地工作，从而消耗更多的血糖，有助于降低血糖水平。

为什么红光疗法在早晨最有效？

线粒体有自己的生物钟，通常在早晨激活。因此，在早晨使用红光疗法可以更好地刺激线粒体，提高其功能。

如何选择合适的红光疗法设备？

应选择波长在660至850纳米之间的设备，避免使用低于670纳米的设备，因为其效果可能不佳。同时，应确保设备使用的是LED而非激光，以确保安全性。

红光疗法是否对所有人都安全？

目前的研究显示红光疗法对大多数人是安全的，但使用任何医疗设备之前，最好先咨询医疗专业人员。

红光疗法对于视力有哪些潜在的好处？

红光疗法可以改善视网膜功能，对于视力有积极影响，尤其对于黄斑变性等眼疾患者可能有改善视力的潜力。

如何将红光疗法融入日常生活？

可以在早晨起床后使用红光设备进行短时间的照射，或者在户外活动时，确保有足够时间暴露在阳光下，以获得红光的益处。

红光疗法对于宇航员在国际空间站的健康问题有何帮助？

研究表明，红光可能有助于改善宇航员在国际空间站上经历的线粒体功能下降问题，从而减缓衰老迹象和改善健康状况。

Outlines

00:00

🔬 研究兴趣的起源

本段落介绍了研究者如何开始对红光和不同波长的光产生兴趣。最初是因为被邀请评审一篇关于红光的论文，尽管最初难以理解且持怀疑态度，但研究者最终通过自己的简单实验确认了红光对生物体有实际影响。这项研究在过去12年中从学术兴趣发展到临床试验，特别是研究光对线粒体的影响，线粒体是细胞的能量工厂，与代谢和衰老有关。

05:00

🌞 光与生物学的关系

这段落讨论了线粒体对光的敏感性，尤其是长波长的光如何为老化或病态的线粒体充电，而短波长的光，如蓝光，则会放电。这种光敏性与生物体的代谢和炎症反应有关。此外，提到了人们对于光和生物学之间联系的普遍认识，以及阳光与人造光源（如LED灯）之间的光谱差异。

10:01

👵 红光对衰老的影响

本段落探讨了随着寿命延长，人们在疾病中生存的时间更长，导致线粒体功能下降，从而引起衰老和各种与衰老相关的疾病。现代建筑阻挡了有益的红外光，加剧了所谓的“红光饥饿”。研究者通过实验发现，红光可以改善视力和提高能量，对抗衰老的影响。

15:01

🐝 红光对蜜蜂血糖的影响

研究者通过在蜜蜂身上的实验发现，红光能够通过加速线粒体工作来降低血糖水平。这一发现后来在人类志愿者身上得到了验证，表明红光有潜力用于治疗2型糖尿病。红光通过刺激线粒体在全身范围内产生影响，即使只照射身体的一小部分。

20:03

🚫 对蓝光的警告

这段落讨论了蓝光对生物体可能产生的负面影响，尤其是对线粒体的损害。研究者提倡减少在日常生活中对LED照明的使用，因为它们发出的光缺乏红光，可能对健康产生不利影响。同时，提出了红光疗法作为一种潜在的改善公共健康的方法。

25:03

🌅 红光与皮肤和胶原蛋白

本段落讨论了红光对于皮肤健康和胶原蛋白生成的潜在益处，尽管市场上的一些红光设备可能价格昂贵且效果未经验证。研究者指出，红光疗法应该在早晨进行，因为这是线粒体活动的高峰期。

30:08

🌱 红光对儿童近视的影响

研究者提到了红光可能有助于预防儿童近视的发展，这与中国孩子在室内长时间学习和缺乏户外活动有关。红光的照射可能有助于减缓近视的发展。

35:11

🧠 红光对大脑和帕金森病的潜在影响

这段落探讨了通过鼻腔照射红光可能对治疗帕金森病有益的理论。虽然这种方法听起来不寻常，但研究者认为它可能有助于快速将光线传递到大脑中的深部结构。

40:13

🔍 红光研究的未来方向

研究者表达了对红光研究未来方向的兴奋，包括其对罕见线粒体疾病的潜在影响，以及可能如何改善公共健康。他强调了将研究成果转化为实际应用的重要性，并分享了自己的个人红光使用习惯。

45:18

📚 推荐阅读和个人健康实践

在这段落中，研究者推荐了Nick Lane的《Power, Sex, Suicide》一书，并分享了自己如何通过每天早晨做瑜伽来改善健康。他还表达了对火光与人类进化之间可能联系的研究兴趣。

Keywords

💡线粒体

线粒体是细胞内的一种重要细胞器，负责细胞的能量代谢，被称为细胞的‘能量工厂’。在视频中，线粒体与光的关系被广泛讨论，特别是在红光和近红外光如何影响线粒体功能，进而影响人的代谢和衰老过程。例如，视频提到线粒体对光非常敏感，光可以调节线粒体的功能，而线粒体的功能又与人体的代谢和衰老速率密切相关。

💡红光

红光是视频讨论的重点之一，特别是在670纳米以上波长的光如何对人体产生积极影响。红光能够深入人体组织，刺激线粒体，从而有助于提高细胞的能量产生和减少炎症。视频中提到，红光疗法可以改善视力、促进伤口愈合以及可能对抗与衰老相关的疾病。

💡近红外光

近红外光是波长在700纳米以上的光，它与红光类似，能够深入人体组织并刺激线粒体。在视频中，近红外光被认为在健康方面可能具有更大的潜力，因为它的穿透力比可见红光更强。讨论了近红外光对于改善视力和线粒体功能的潜在效果。

💡代谢

代谢是指生物体内进行的一系列化学反应，用于维持生命过程。在视频中，代谢与线粒体的功能紧密相关，因为线粒体负责调节代谢过程。红光和近红外光能够通过影响线粒体来改善代谢，例如通过提高能量产生或减少有害的代谢副产品。

💡衰老

衰老是生物体随时间功能逐渐下降的过程。视频中提到，线粒体的效能下降与衰老有关，而通过红光和近红外光照射可以提高线粒体的功能，从而可能减缓衰老过程。这表明适当的光照可能有助于维持细胞和器官的健康状态，对抗老化。

💡光敏感性

光敏感性是指生物体对光的反应能力。视频强调线粒体对光特别敏感，这种敏感性是光如何影响细胞功能的关键。光敏感性的研究有助于我们理解如何利用特定波长的光照来改善健康和治疗疾病。

💡LED灯

LED灯是一种半导体发光器件，因其节能和长寿命而广泛使用。然而，视频中提到，LED灯的光谱可能缺乏红光，这可能导致所谓的'红光饥饿'，影响人体的健康和功能。讨论了如何通过改变照明类型来改善公共健康问题。

💡光生物调节作用

光生物调节作用是指光对生物组织产生的影响，包括光如何影响细胞功能和生理过程。视频讨论了红光和近红外光如何通过光生物调节作用改善线粒体功能，进而影响健康和疾病治疗。

💡褪黑激素

褪黑激素是一种在黑暗中分泌增加的激素，有助于调节睡眠-觉醒周期。虽然视频中没有直接提到褪黑激素，但讨论了红光和近红外光对睡眠和昼夜节律的潜在影响，因为这些光类型可能影响人体的内部时钟。

💡光疗

光疗是一种使用光线治疗疾病的疗法。视频讨论了红光和近红外光在光疗中的应用，包括改善视力、促进伤口愈合和可能对抗某些疾病如帕金森病。光疗的潜力在于其非侵入性和低风险，使其成为一种有吸引力的治疗手段。

Highlights

研究者最初因为评审一篇论文而对红光和不同波长的光产生兴趣。

经过12年的发展，研究从学术兴趣发展到临床试验。

红光和近红外光被认为对健康有益，但具体原因尚不清楚。

线粒体对光非常敏感，光可以调节线粒体的功能，而线粒体又调节新陈代谢和衰老过程。

长波长的光可以为状态不佳的线粒体充电，而短波长的光，如蓝光，会放电。

红光可以改善视力，因为它能重新为眼睛中的线粒体充电。

阳光是生命进化的主要能源，包含了从紫外线到红外线的广泛光谱。

现代建筑阻挡了对我们有益的红外线，可能导致了所谓的“红光饥饿”。

红光可以穿透身体，刺激任何细胞中的线粒体。

红光对提高老年人视觉功能有积极影响。

线粒体理论认为，随着年龄的增长，线粒体功能衰退，可能导致衰老和炎症。

红光可能对治疗帕金森病等与线粒体功能障碍相关的疾病有益。

红光对改善蜜蜂的血糖水平显示出积极效果，可能对人类也有类似效果。

红光照射可以作为改善胰岛素抵抗和血糖水平的潜在干预手段。

红光照射的效果不依赖于照射面积的大小，而是像开关一样，存在一个阈值。

红光对伤口愈合有积极影响，可能促进炎症减少。

在国际空间站上，宇航员显示出线粒体功能衰退的迹象，可能与长期暴露在LED光源下有关。

红光可能有助于减少近视的发展，特别是在儿童中。

市场上的红光设备价格昂贵，但实际效果与低成本的LED灯相似。

红光设备应在早晨使用，因为线粒体在下午不响应红光。

研究者提倡回归使用白炽灯，以提供更广泛的光谱光，改善公共健康。

研究者个人实践包括早晨进行瑜伽和使用红光照射。

研究者对未来红光研究的期待包括其在人类进化中的作用，特别是与火光的关系。

Transcripts

[Music]

okay awesome wonderful well where are

you Ben I'm in Oxfordshire where are you

uh I'm at The Institute of Opthalmology

at University College London brilliant

but that that that's where you spend

most of your time these days am I

correctly saying sadly

yes so did your did your research into

the eye uh I guess Spike uh the interest

in red light I mean how did the interes

in red and sort of different wave

lengths of light come about um it came

about originally because I was asked to

review a paper and I looked at this

paper and I thought I don't understand a

word of this and it was one of the first

papers on red light and the next

reaction was I didn't believe it um but

then when I read it I thought these

people that did this research are really

solid they're really solid the

inadequacy is in me um and that's where

it start started to roll and I did a few

simple experiments myself and it

confirmed that something was happening

you know that there was something here

and and really over the last 12 years

this has grown and it's grown from being

um what should we say an academic

interest to us running it all the way

through into clinical trials um so it's

been a it's been an interesting

organic development of of a subject from

me working on flies to now working on uh

working on people and kids yeah it's a

really interesting um field because I

think you have all these uh all these

Health nerds who buy the massive red

lights and near Fred lights but yet

don't quite know why I mean I bought one

back in 2021 and if anyone asked me why

have you bought this I wouldn't be able

to give them an answer um but saying

that when uh my friends come around and

see my red light they think why the red

light why they new infared can we to

start with can we understand the

relationship or could you help us

understand the relationship between

mitochondria and light yeah sure now the

area of mitochondria mitochondria

research is very much the area of kind

of people who are quite Technical

biochemists and so um they they go into

mitochondria they rip them apart they

look at what's inside the

Machinery um I come from it from a

different perspective because I don't

know any

biochemistry um that's not my area so we

tend to treat them as black

boxes um so we do something to them and

something happens and we don't worry too

much about the middle ground I think

that when it comes to biology in general

if you take if you if you take plants

out of the equation and you take eyes

out of the equation people are very

unhappy looking at light and biology

right so if we look about skin cell or

we look at something like that people

are not very very comfortable but one of

the issues at stake here is that

mitochondria are very very light

sensitive and that was known a long time

ago but seems to have got a little bit

lost um and what is critical for us is

that light can regulate what

mitochondria do and mitochondria

regulate your metabolism and they also

regulate your pace of Aging so you know

they do do rather a lot of things and if

we've got a if we've got a spanner that

can actually be used to crack

mitochondria that actually is very very

important so that's how I came in I came

in I am an outsider as far as a lot of

the mitochondrial people are concerned

but know very very few people look at

mitochondria as black

boxes I guess I mean I get the

mitochondri sort of Heavy Hitters unique

lanes and those uh those types I imagine

um the looking at the Black Box I think

is a lovely way to frame the discussion

because you don't need to know the

intricacies of what goes on inside the

mitochondria right as you said something

happens light black box something

happens come out so what is the effect

um of different spectrums of light to

mitochondria okay so I always use the

analogy that let's view mitochondria as

a battery with a charge and it is a

battery and it does have a charge um but

with aging and with disease the battery

runs down you know they the mitochondria

regulate aging so it happens that long

wavelengths of light are mitochondria

respond to them by charging a battery

that is actually in a poor state so it

can be a poor State through aging it can

be in a poor State because of metabolic

disease that's one end of the spectrum

the other end of the

spectrum look at the sort of the short

wavelengths

blue the blue discharges the battery it

reduces the charge on the battery and as

you reduce the charge on the battery you

can imagine like an old car battery as

it runs down it starts to it starts to

leak acid in this case it produces

something called reactive oxygen species

and what that does is it drives

inflammation right so our battery runs

down we get old we don't have the energy

to kick our legs out of bed in the way

that used to and at the same time we

start to get inflammation because the

batter's leaking acid so that's the kind

of the simple basics of it I mean we can

talk a lot about what is it in the

mitochondria that are absorbing the

light um and I think we pretty much

identified that now giving us a sort of

good grounding for me I for me the most

important thing is driving that forward

to an application you know what can we

do do what can we do with people with

mitochondria that don't work very well

what can we do with people who who are

old I mean at the end of the day we all

get old um and many diseases are

embedded in mitochondrial function and

uh so macular degeneration Parkinson's

disease is fundamentally a mitochondrial

disease um so we've got lots of

applications we can move

towards um if we feel secure about them

definitely I I I'm I'm looking at my

script right now and I want to stay on

topic but part of me wants to deviate

and ask let tangents

and sort of the the different imbalances

of mitochondri and what that has

implications for specifically I've read

the book last week called the metabolic

theory of cancer by Thomas sa I don't

know if you've come across it no I

haven't come across that essentially

it's a theory where cancer is a uh is

coming about as a result of the defect

mitochondria um which Downstream of that

um creates all sorts of cancer but we

won't go there yet to frame the

discussion I'd love to understand and

just sort of set the parameters up of um

what different light waves do we get

from the sun because I think when you

say light everyone is used to sort of

the incandescent bulbs that get in the

home the different spectrum of light

they get in the Sun and then from there

maybe we can sort of zoom in on an

infrared and red light yes so sunlight

and I really going to sell the point to

kick off with you've evolved life has

evolved for billions of years under

sunlight light is the energy that that

drives

Evolution um so sunlight you could very

crudely say runs from the ultraviolet

that we can't see you know 350 320

nanometers and then it runs all the way

out to you around 2,000 nanometers so

it's a really wide wide spectrum but we

only see a really small window of that

Spectrum

so we only see from about 400 nanometers

to about 700 nanometers so sunlight out

here we see this bit and because we only

see a small part of it that's the bit we

tend to pay attention to and we don't

pay attention to a lot of the other

stuff now um we've evolved under

sunlight and when we when we and and

Fire Light is very similar to sunlight

in its Spectrum so you could think well

as we've evolved we've got fires uh and

then when we started to um when we

developed light in the built environment

we developed incandescent light bulbs

which are the ones that get hot which

are very Eco unfriendly at the moment um

but they give off a very wide spectrum

of light as well so um even though we've

moved in houses and into and into into

buildings for a period of time we did

have light that was rather like sunlight

and of course that changed when we moved

over to LEDs because they have got an

extremely restricted wavelength of

spectrum that we're exposed to so okay

so that that is a it's really helpful to

know so just to get on the same page for

The Listener who's not familiar with um

all the different implications of light

the sun is almost this sort of cocktail

of different light spectrums we can only

see a a select few spectrums but there

many many many and uh we're born to be

exposed to these different light

spectrums but we spend 92% of our time

indoors bulbs can mess with how we've

meant to be evolved and that can cause

all sorts of issues to my understanding

why so much attention on specifically

the red and near infrared spectrums of

light at the moment um it's because of

you know it's about recharging that

battery we know they recharg the battery

um let's put it into a wider context

which is we're living much longer right

so first of all we're coming under

threat um in terms of Lifestyle because

we're living too long you know if we

were knocking about in the savannah in

Africa we'd probably be you know

probably been making 35 or 40 years

we're not now the average life

expectancy in the UK is about 82 years

so the battery is already in very very

poor condition because of lifespan

extension and then also we're surviving

in disease because medicine is helping

us survive disease so that's putting us

all in a very very difficult situation

so and another thing that most people

don't take into account is that in

modern buildings our glass blocks

infrared light so we're blocking the

sunlight element that is very very

helpful to us which is infrared and we

do that because you want to control the

internal temperature of the building and

if we let infrared light in buildings

get hot so we're inside we're not

getting any infrared from our lighting

anymore we're blocking the infrared

lighting um in our glass in modern

buildings um so we have an an infrared

crisis now Bob Fosbury my colleague

draws the analogy with scurvy uh scurvy

is a disease that you get because you

don't get enough vitamin C you get a

disease because something is absent so

he draws the analogy I think very very

correctly with red light starvation we

are in a situation of red light

starvation so hence this interest in red

light we're all kind of scurrying around

saying red light yeah maybe we should be

getting some red light but at the same

time you're correct we need a rationale

what is the rationale for this what is

our Target what what are our devices

what do we want to do with it um so we

are in a situation of red light

starvation it's a it's a really bizarre

I mean I don't know how you feel about

this because you're so close to it but

this year specifically I've gone from

knowing nothing about light to suddenly

I know I still know nothing but I

understand this crisis and you know feel

I got to do something about it so

spending consciously and and uh you know

reading your papers and speaking to you

if we start with some um uh

understanding of the way wavelengths

between red light so how far can W red

light specifically penetrate the body

well okay so this is this the longer the

wavelength the deeper the

penetration um and this isn't published

yet but it will be published shortly so

um again and my colleague Bob Fosbury

who's fundamentally an astronomer said

Glenn I I I think this red light some of

this red light can go through your body

so we lined up a whole group of

individuals on a sunny day outside the

back of the Institute of Opthalmology

and we got them to take their shirts off

and we put some instrumentation on their

back and we can measure sunlight coming

through your quad now the bit that comes

out of the other end is pretty small

very small but that does demonstrate

that that those deep red wavelengths

which are beyond the range that you can

see about 850 um they're penetrating

your body when you're walking down the

street they're penetrating your body and

clothes don't stop them unless you're

wearing rubber or metal um so those

wavelengths of light penetrating

straight through the body so if you

think about deep organs of your body um

they're being exposed to they're being

exposed to Long wavelengths of light if

you're

outside well it's it's quite hard to get

your head around so yeah it is as a

result it can penetrate the body and

stimulate the mitochondria in any sort

of cell skin you name it right well no

you don't have to pale skins um you know

some of the people we measured it in are

people who you know Africa cariban um so

what what we do with this is you know we

we we work out which wavelengths they

are and they tend to be the longer ones

but we then take people into into

laboratory settings where with those

wavelengths we expose them to those

wavelengths and then we test their

vision and we find that in and vision is

highly dependent on mitochondria and we

find if we expose them to those

wavelengths we recharge the batteries in

their eyes and we can get their visual

function to

improve um so so sunlight is important

for lots of metabolic processes um it's

important

for uh high energy demanding processes

like your visual system uh we know if we

expose um insects to Long wavelength red

light they their Mobility improves so

older flies and older bees become have a

greater degree of Mobility if we pump

their mitochondria up so it has a very

wide effect now if we look at things

like flies flies are very cheap it's

very easy to do experiments with flies

and you can ask them to do things like

can you remember this can you do this we

find that older Flies who have got

memory deficits and have got problems

with uh how they walk around and

understand their world we get an

improvement with long wavelength life so

all of this is seated in the in in the

situation of Aging we get these

improvements in aging flies we get these

improvements primarily in aging

individuals you can get them in younger

ones as well and if you remember some of

the things that some of the unfortunate

things that are happening in public

health now is we have aging populations

but we have an explosion in diseases of

Aging populations such as diabetes

Parkinson's disease and macular

degeneration so so much on tap there so

um would would that be all under the I

guess the bracket of the mitochondrial

Theory of Aging yeah a lot of it would

and then that Theory of Aging which oh

God it's really old now it's terribly

old I don't think the Harmon the I don't

know if Harmon is still alive or not I'd

love to take him out for a drink um yeah

you know there are many theories of

Aging the mitochondrial Theory of Aging

um sticks to the wall really well you

know the basic process that that he

talked about about mitochondria failing

and failing to produce enough energy and

then starting to produce

pro-inflammatory things like reactive

oxygen spe he was spot on absolutely

spot on well there seems to be some

parallels with the ketogenic diet of a

lot of the benefits of the ketogenic

diet for things like cardiovascular

disease Alzheimer's and Dementia um and

epilepsy and things apparently is the

mechanism is down to it makes you more

mitochondrially healthy a quick question

on the eye um when you said that when

they're exposed to red light in the eye

is is the retina really mitochondrial

dense is is there a lots of mitochondria

there or is it just so your photo

receptors in your retina have got more

mitochondria than any other cell in your

body now your your retina burns more

energy than any other part of your body

it burns more energy than your muscles

it burns more energy than your heart it

burns more energy than your liver it is

in

a we talk about it as being on a

metabolic Cliff it is in a very

dangerous situation because if you burn

lots of energy you generate lots of

rubbish

right so that dust bin is filling up

because you're burning lots of energy um

the retina is unique in that respect um

and yeah retina is incredibly energy

dependent and that made life very easy

for me because when I came into this

field I came in as a retinal person and

so my my home territory was completely

fertile for trying to attack this

problem wow okay that makes sense so so

you came to this through the retina

which is one of the most mitochondrial

packed places and then that gives you

this sort of mechanism of red light in

blackbox mitochondria recharged energy

out yeah yeah to be honest with you any

anyone that makes that story more

complicated is pulling wool over your

eyes really well this that that this

music to my ears because I can roughly

understand that at least um so okay so

that's with the retina looking at sort

of other interventions I really enjoyed

your paper on um the effects on insulin

could you walk us through how that paper

came about um and then maybe we just

talk about sort of how how does red

light affect insul okay so um this was

this was down to one of my colleagues

Mike poer and we're beginning to realize

that mitochondria rule lots of other

things and there's lots of things we

don't know about but we know that

mitochondria they themselves demand

energy and that energy is glucose and

oxygen

so Mike and I were on a long drive to go

and do a piece of research somewhere

else and Mike said to me if we make

mitochondria work harder then in theory

um they're going to need more sugar and

the only place I can get it from is your

serum and you know this was a bit of a

revelation it's you you only come you

only have these conversations up when

you you're sitting there and you got a

long period of you know just mind

rolling so I said well I'm not taking a

risk on that um so Mike then said

because we'd always been working on and

off on bees he said well why don't we do

it on

bees sampling blood in bees and but we

had a bit of experience there so what

Mike and I did was we took some bees we

um we gave we gave them a blood glucose

tolerance test which is lots of people

have had them but what we do is we just

starve the be overnight so then you give

the bee a big drop of glucose and of

course the be

goes and it blood glucose level or the

equivalent of blood hemolymph went woof

right and really really high so we did

two horrible things to the bee some bees

we gave them a big burst of red light

and the other bees we gave them a big

burst of blue light so one in one with

the red light we're making their

mitochondria work hard and with the with

with the red light with the blue light

we're slowing their mitochondria down

and it had an a direct effect on their

blood glucose levels so we knew from

that model and everything with

mitochondria if it works in a fly tends

to work in a human so we knew proof of

principle right proof of principle it

worked so then uh we got ethical

permission we got a whole group of

people in and it was a horrible

experiment you know you stick a oxygen

you stick a tube up people's noses to

measure this CO2 because if you're

burning more oxygen you'll kick out more

CO2 we're pricking their fingers every

few minutes and then we're asking them

to drink the most disgusting pile of

glucose you really know who your friends

are when you when you need subjects like

this and lo it came out came out so well

I said to Mike I want the whole lot

replicated let's just put all the data

aside let's start again with a different

group of people let's replicate the

whole thing and we did and was one of

those perfect experiments the

replication came out exactly the same as

in the first the first experiment

so red light can reduce blood glucose by

making your

mitochondria drink more glucose that

they take from your serum now these were

ordinary healthy

people um including some of my relatives

um but Mike has now gone on to do it

with type two diabetics and I have seen

early signs of that data and it looks

great right so and with that we were

shining red light on a region of

people's backs uh for about 15 minutes I

think we could do better I think we can

I think we can give less light um

shorter time periods and get and get the

same effect now a natural question from

this is

Shining Light on a little bit of

someone's back small proportions of body

area why a mitochondria all over the

place consuming more

sugar and the thing is that if you

manipulate mitochondria in one part of

the body the story gets out mitochondria

talking to one another right across the

body we know that from a number of

experiments that been done ages ago

where people would manipulate

mitochondria one bit of an animal and

then they'd see them change the

following day over here no one really

had a great idea what what was going on

but of course you know you you can't

have metabolism changing in one place

not the other so um we did find in in

animal experiments the moment we hit

them with a burst of red

light a signal changes in the blood and

that signal is something called cyto

kindes and they're very often associated

with inflammation but they're also

signaling molecules so mitochondria are

affected by the red light they change

their

metabolism and they leave a message that

goes out and that message goes out to

mitochondria in other parts of the body

that do not receive the red light and

those mitochondria change and come into

line with the ones that were exposed wow

so you wouldn't have to um there

wouldn't be any argument for say the

stomach over the back because it's not

centralized it it spans out for the

whole body body yeah so I had a dream to

I had a dream which we talked about with

the team I said wouldn't it be this was

before all this came out I said wouldn't

it be fantastic if you went to the hole

in the wall to take your money out when

you did that you used your hand as an

ident as an identifier so you put your

hand down as a unique identifier and

then while you were doing that you were

getting a burst of red light while

you're waiting for your money to come

out now that was a dream ticket um

that's not a dream ticket anymore that's

doable that is doable there are other

people in other Lads exposing different

parts of the body and getting effects in

completely different regions right so I

don't have to shine stuff in your eye I

don't have to do something which you're

going to find uncomfortable

awkward we just need to expose one part

of your body and if we wait 24 hours

we'll get it to kick in wow I wonder

what the minimum effective dose is

because the back's quite a big area

right like how I guess my question is

how how much could you shrink that down

what's the threshold where you could

shrink it down to actually get the same

effect really good question um now I

can't answer you in terms of area but I

can answer you in terms of time so if we

go to if we go back to our bees remember

what we find in a bee we very often find

in a uh we find normally finding a human

if I take the time

down um to you know I take the time down

to three minutes fine everything works

as well as if it was 15 minutes if I

take the time down to under one minute

nothing happens now what is interesting

here is this is not a dose respon curve

it's not like I've got a hangover I'll

take 15 Aspirin because it's better than

one this is a switch everything that

people have found in this area indicates

it is a switch so that we are doing

something maybe an enzymes being

released proteins being released and

that is the key thing now when it comes

to um energy the amount of energy you

might need in that red light again that

is coming down so a study that was done

in morefields Eye Hospital on improving

retinal function showed that well they

did an experiment and we gave them the

devices to do it and the devices ran on

batteries and when the batteries came

back I said to them you've not changed

the batteries the batteries are

underperforming um and then when we

looked at the data we found that um they

were getting a result they were getting

a good result

so there we been using let's let's let's

say 8 to 10 millatt per per centimeter

Square just just remember 8 to 10 well

these people who are you know generally

really good were getting a result with

one now the reason they were getting a

result with one was that when they were

administrating administrating the light

there was no blue anywhere it was red

only okay so if you if you start to mix

blue in with it from other sources it

doesn't work as well so all of this now

I can't answer your question about how

many square meters of skin we need but

everything is telling us that what we've

been doing so far has been over the top

we can reduce it

um hopefully hopefully we know the time

we know it's going to be a minute we

know the dose is really quite low when

I'm saying one um uh millatt per cm

squared that really is a relatively thin

bike light you know that is that is not

that great area we'll find out but I

don't know at the moment if you had to

Hazard a guess which would be the most

effective area or would that

be well well when you think about retina

when I'm doing the eye I mean that's an

area like that that's pretty small but

it shouts it shouts at the rest of the

body I think we're probably talking

about maybe 10 square cm

you know it may be the case that if we

if we cut it down further we get an

effect but maybe the effect takes a

little bit longer to kick off that's

quite possible there's so many things

here I I we know it works we know we get

a result we know that the result can

have clinical impact we haven't hunged

down yet the real bottom end where's the

bottom end of all this I don't know that

from a pragmatic point of view if I was

sitting here I'd be saying pragmatic

point of view I don't care

because I'm already giving you something

that's not disturbing your life it's not

inconvenient and I'm getting effect you

know so switch worry as you said it's

the switch it's not the sort of dose

dependent an hour is better than half

hour it's just turning that switch on

yeah just just as you thinking as you're

talking

the most studies ever done in the lab

have been under blue light is that

correct um well when people have been

doing studies with light there have been

a lot of studies on animals done on Blue

Light um hunting out for damage um very

rarely have they defined the exact

wavelength of the light they've used and

the exact energy of the light they have

used people go Blue well blue is a

meaningless term it just happens to be

something that we Define because we see

this and we call it blue in natur fact

you've got to give the wavelength what

is the wavelength length you know if

I've got if I've got an eagle sitting

next to me and I show it one type of

blue it's going to look very different

to that eagle than it will do for me you

know it's it's just that our photo

receptors are tuned in a certain way so

yeah there's been a lot of work done on

Blue Light because there is this this

notion that is correct although poorly

defined that blue light is damaging and

blue light on its own does you very few

favors because it discharges your

mitochondrial

battery so but is there an argument for

surgeries to be done under red light as

a result

is sorry carry on no I was just sorry I

mean I was just more just making these

questions up because I'm F on this

tangent but

the okay go as long as you okay with

that because it just if the history of

the last 100 years most clinical things

be surgeries or scientific studies on

anything have been under one wavelength

of

light I shouldn't say color but I wonder

if there's a um if there's any reason to

actually change the spectrum of light

you might change the outcome in

surgeries or things that could help I

don't know key one here is one of the

early experiments that was done under

red light was a NASA study where they

were doing something under red light

that involved them nicking their

fingers and they found that wound healed

faster under red light now all of the

data that we are currently looking at

indicate

that wounds will heal better under long

wavelength L now if that's a pile of

rubbish worst case scenario is you

bought a red light you

know the belief amongst us is very firm

that um the red light is going to be is

going to help wounds heal and the

mechanism for that is there we can

understand that because it will reduce

inflammation now most of the most of the

lighting in hospitals is now LED

lighting it's very very strong in blue

and it has almost no red in it and that

is a point that needs to be

addressed um and again it's it's minimum

cost absolute minimum cost if we can get

people out of

beds if we can reduce bed blocking by

changing a light bulb if we can reduce

it by

5% the NHS is onto a winner right now

particularly in older people where their

battery the mitochondria are

underperforming if we can get those

older people out of beds in hospitals by

changing a light bulb that's got to be a

winner wow it just seems like such a

such loow hanging fruit for yeah see you

know this El this aging population with

all these diseases and if you can as you

say flip this switch in them and how

they live um it seems like quite a

lowcost solution that has a load of B

your bu yeah so let's get rid of the

blue light here's another great story um

it's a very important story and again it

bounces back to NASA so NASA published

this big paper

um with Lo loads of authors loads of

really big names on it and they said we

have a problem with astronauts on the

International Space Station they are all

suffering they are suffering from

mitochondrial Decline and that is being

presented in two forms one is they're

showing signs of premature aging

remember these people are up there for

for long periods and everything they do

all the day is being monitored so there

suffering from premature aging and

they're suffering from pre-diabetes all

these really fit people look at the

environment they're all under super

harsh white

LEDs now the great thing about the NASA

study was they excluded the obvious

which is no gravity it wasn't something

to do with that and they put it out

there as they put it out really as a

question what is going on but it was a

great experiment because it's an

experiment where you know I can't get

hold of a group of people and put them

under LED lighting 24 hours a day for

months on end but they did it for us and

that was great wow yeah the extremes

teach the best good or bad right in that

extreme environment you

suddenly uh this environment you can

pull those a lessons from so now in NASA

uh in the International Space Station do

they have red lights everywhere or no no

I think that perhaps we should also see

NASA in it wider context

so

NASA is partly run by the military um

you don't get all the stories out that

you want but NASA want to unload

long-term space flight to private

companies so private companies they

would like private companies to be

involved in um sending people to Mars

are they really going to go and tell

everybody that these people they're

sending out to Mars could get

mitochondrial disease because they're

going to be they're going to be out to

Mars for a of a lot longer than the

people on the International Space

Station so we've announced it we've told

the European Space Agency um about it

and they certainly listened um I don't

know if they're doing anything about it

but uh Bob Fosbury who was the person

who uh coined the term about red light

starvation he was a leading scientist at

the European uh space

Association and he is the guy who built

the spectrometers on the James web

telescope so he has a lot of profile

with them um and I'm sure they're

listening but they're not saying a lot

wow okay maybe some first incentives

there that's uh you've got the um as

with health often you've got the the

research and the anecdotal data all sort

of screaming and then you've got public

policy just taking a little bit longer

to to catch up so what you think the uh

the the the Catalyst to to force some

change the catalyst is someone listening

and that is why I'm really happy to talk

to you and I will take off any amount of

time to talk to yourselves and other

people I need a senior civil servant in

the department of health or a

minister in a health department to pay

attention and I would say you know I

would emphasize yet again

we have got ethical approval from

morfield Eye Hospital from University

College there is we've had some people

taking red light on their own bat for

years there is no health problem okay

there is no

downside the only downside to all this

is you got to go and buy a red light now

the red lights that you're seeing you

know that are on the market 100 quid you

know those lights that you're paying 100

for can be can be landed UK at

$12 right because it's Health they're

charging a fortune in fact I had to

exclude and story much told a lovely old

lady from a clinical trial she was great

and I had to say look because of a b c

and d i can't include you and she was

she was bit fed up with me um and she

turned up back on the door about a month

later and she had a battery in her hand

and she had an LED an infrared LED and

she joined it with her fingers and she

held it up in front of her eye and she

said Glenn will it work I was I was

really taking a back and I said well

come and have a cup of

tea and I asked a member of the team to

measure the energy and measure the

wavelength and they came back and they

said that'll work so there is nothing

mystical here there is nothing that

requires high tech there is nothing that

requires a vast amount of money okay as

I say worst case scenario you bought a

battery you bought an LED and I look

like a fool but I don't think that's

going to happen yeah there's this old uh

this old phrase where there's mystery

there's margin

and yeah yeah so you know we're just not

talking about that little old lady in

her vision we're not just talking about

people with Maul degeneration we're

talking about people um we're talking

about diabetic crisis

country has a has a diabet that is

costing us a fortune yeah why don't we

just think

laterally well the market for so my

background's um Health startups and the

market for uh um I guess things to

manage insulin um better and reduce that

glucose Spike or insulin Spike um it's

vast and you more people have continuous

glucose sponsors and um you know I I got

I got pitched a a supplement that

reduces your insulin Spike you take it

with when you take it with food actually

well red light seems to be way more

cost- effective solution than that I

mean just it's just interesting uh an

interesting tool that no one is really

talking about in that Spectrum in that

in that space which is very very

fascinating you know ABS we've got um

we've got a we do talk to we are now

talking very very seriously to

Architects I spend most of my time now

not in the medical school but actually

in the Bartlet School of AR architecture

at UCL they they are firmly they know

what's happening firmly on board there's

also a number of small lighting

companies that are at The Cutting Edge

specialist lighting companies and one of

the people that run one of those

companies um put a patch on his arm

walked around and took red light and he

came back and said Glen this works I

said yeah I know it

works how do we get belief how you know

how many papers have I got to publish

before someone says you know okay

there's something in this there was a

good colleague of mine once said you

know is there much point in publishing

because a lot of people just don't

bother to read it anyway you've got to

make a splash you've got to go in the

media you've got to talk and and and

pick people up that

way well I don't know I mean I've never

published a paper but I imagine it's the

you know you got have the right products

and the right distribution and uh you

know things like this is the

distribution right you got you got got

to talk about it um yeah I mean that's

the wonderful thing about these podcasts

um not necessarily this one or this guy

hosting it at all but it's just reduces

all friction to to to get a message out

um I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about

skin complexion and collagen um a lot of

questions coming in about you know you

see all the red light masks specifically

for way more than 100 100 pounds um is

there any efficacy behind that and sort

of it can upregulate collagen and what

all these companies claim or is that

well

I don't think they know what they're

doing right very few of these companies

actually know what they're doing very

few of these companies will give you any

specific data about their devices and

what their devices are doing I would say

that the evidence in favor of wound

healing and reduction in wrinkles the

evidence is there that something is

going on but when you go and buy your

device and you pay some outrageous

figure like $400 quit they don't know

how much that energy they've got to give

you you know they've got absolute they

don't know the exact wavelengths that

they should be using it's all out there

you can read it even more importantly

one of the one of the key things about

red light devices is your mitochondria

you can only sort of recharge your

mitochondria in the mornings doesn't

work in the afternoon doesn't work in

the afternoon because mitochondria do so

many different things that you know I

say to people look in the afternoon the

mitochondri doing the ironing doing the

dishes doing the other things they need

to do in life so everyone's selling you

these devices and they're not telling

you they don't work in the afternoon wow

so you have to fall in line with the

Master Clock which is you say Kum Rhythm

the the the mitochondria have got their

own clocks the mitochondria kick

themselves into action I think it's

related to perceived Dawn and they kick

themselves into action about half an

hour before perceived Dawn and then when

they're working really hard you can give

them a red light and they'll work even

harder if you catch them at 3 o00 in the

afternoon you can give buckets of red

light and nothing happens and that's

true in a fly and it's true in a human

being wow funny I don't know if there

anything to do with things but it seems

to follow the same dial rhythm of

hormones you know testosterone is very

high and and cortisol very high in the

morning and fluctuates down wonder if

there's a link between I I I think the

link is very much um in your

evolutionary history when you were

waking up or you know in in Africa um

you know um when you wake up you're

extremely vulnerable very vulnerable

you've been vulnerable for a while

you've been you've been asleep you've

probably been snoring announcing your

presence to absolutely everybody the

Tigers the sabertooth tigers have come

along they know where you are your

testosterone has to be high your glucose

levels has to be high and your

mitochondria have to be pumping out ATP

because you need to be in a super fit

State when you wake up in the morning I

think it's all tied into that that makes

yeah that that that makes a lot makes a

lot of sense it's so fascinating where

this field goes and um sorry the wind

was blowing my door open um where this

field goes and uh I don't know what the

next five years look like I mean from a

policy point of view and sort of the

entrepreneurial potential there is here

and you know which one sort of Push It

Forward I don't know um what are you

most excited about in this field

um there are so many things that excite

me so I'll let I'll let you know I'll

let you know about One um and it's

personal okay um we've got children with

a very rare

disease um that is mitochondrial based

and um

one of the parents asked me whether they

whether there was any Theory whether red

light could be used and I said I don't

have ethics to do this I don't know

enough about it I suspect that at this

stage I said I suspect that you're not

going to do any

harm they used red light and there was a

very dramatic effect within two weeks um

when I saw the pictures I you know

people know I I went to the toilet and

burst of Tears um now we now have a

small clinical trial for that it's a

rare disease that excites me and it you

know I roll over in bed and I think I

did something worthwhile today you know

that something really worthwh where else

does it excitement it excites me because

I go into talk to groups of people and I

say you've just not paid attention to

light generally what light is doing we

have to and part of the mission that a

small group of us have got now is let's

remove LED lighting there is something

in L well we know what it is it's an

absence of red light let's go back and

find another way of delivering broad

spectrum light so I am going into

environments where people are

sitting um in rooms without daylight um

and they're sitting there with LED

lighting and we're carrying out quite

sophisticated experiments to test their

their visual function and then I'm

taking the light bulbs out and I'm

giving them old incandescent light bulbs

and I'm going back a week later and

we're reasuring their visual function

and it's better now I'm not measuring

their blood sugars I'm not measuring

anything else but you know it seems to

me that someone W won the Nobel Prize

for LED lighting because we're saving

energy and that was a great bit of

science but we didn't realize the

consequences just didn't realize if we

can get people to go back to a different

form of lighting we're going to improve

it's a public health issue you know it's

it's public health if we condent blood

sugars um if we cond Dent these problems

that are

mitochondrial that are all to do with an

aging population um like Parkinson's

disease like macul

degeneration that's great I mean I I I

will put a I will put a punctuation

point at my career if if we can get

policy makers to pick that one up

because the science is

there I love uh I love your optimism for

that and I hope I hope becomes a becomes

a becomes a thing um the Matt Ridley

wrote a great book of how Innovation

Works and he makes a good argument for

uh entrepreneurship pushes policy faster

than policy can push entrepreneurship

and uh maybe that's the the way way to

do it who knows um what is your personal

practi because obviously you're so in in

in in the literature and you're

publishing literature yourself what is

your personal practice with a red light

look like uh my personal practice and

that of most of my colleagues is well I

mean if you could come in my office

you'd realize that all my lighting is

incandescent lighting um my outer lab

space is all incandescent lighting my

home is incandescent lighting

um I when I get up in the mornings I

will very often turn on a a red light

and Just Bounce It Off the Wall while

I'm getting breakfast or if I miss that

one what I do is I I cycle into work and

I get into the office close the door and

start stripping off the kind of horrible

sweaty cycling gear and then I've got a

red light that again I'll bounce off the

bounce off the wall

and all of us are doing it you know all

of us are doing and the big mistake is

is to suddenly think because I'm

bouncing this red light off the wall I'm

going to I've going to have better

memory I'm going to have better muscle

control I'm going to better this better

that it doesn't work like that it just

it just means that in the long run

things are going to improve things are

not going to go downhill at the same

Pace that they would do otherwise and

there's this I've struggled I've

struggled like crazy to find a downside

I need I need I need some that is a

downside and we haven't found it we

haven't found it at all and the other

thing is you know I um I cycled down the

Holloway road which is a pretty

miserable Road in London but I as I'm

cycling down it I'm facing

south and on a sunny day I'm getting

half an hour of burst of

sunlight and would you say that's

enough I'd say it's a bare minimum bare

minimum you said I have I can I can I

can wield this technology into a

situation and say Here's a light at 850

nmet I've got the I think I've got a

very very good sticking plaster on a

problem the resolution of the problem is

really going outside just going outside

I mean another really interesting angle

on this is that there is a strong

relationship between the development of

myopia in

children and the absence of red light

the Chinese have and I'm I'm unsure of

the mechanism but I do believe the

result and it's clear that if you bring

kids inside spend a lot of time in in in

classrooms if they're doing lots of

close work um you're going to develop a

myopic problem and that's that's

enormous in the Far East Malaysia China

Japan um and the answer there is

sunlight the uh my my stepdad he had a

um retina because he was very very

myopic and classic classic yeah in we we

came across some of the the papers in

prepping for this and actually sort

of would have that would that have

helped um pre-retina detach um by all

accounts yes so it would have helped him

when he was a child and he was

developing the myopia see once you're an

adult my opio is when the eye grows too

long once it's out here

you can't do anything to bring it back

here but you can slow its growth by

making children spend more time outside

in sunlight great study well initially a

great study done by the Chinese showing

that red

light reduces the rate of myopia

published relatively recently the

downside was they used a

laser and you should really never use a

laser on the retina unless you really

have to and the consequence was some of

these children developed retinal lesions

and that's held that is going to hold

the field back there is no reason for

using a laser for all of the things that

we do go and get an LED it's safe it's

cheap um all this technology should be

led based and not laser based yeah if

there's a if there's a downside like

like that why why would you use it and

just a question on near infrared light

um what uh how does it different from

red light and are there other benefits

that that can unlock is that a whole

different field or just so so the

wavelengths that people are using

predominantly um are 670 and above if

you go below 670 the efficacy is reduced

now 670 is defined as near infrared

infrared starts sort of 700 plus okay

but this is just it's nomenclature it's

it's about where we're where we're

drawing borders so um a device at 630

which is red it's not near infrared it's

not going to do you any good bicycle

light probably won't do you any good at

all so you know people want a cheap

version um it is the wavelengths are

tend to be 660 670 up to about 800 850

nanometers you'll stop seeing the red

light at 700 to

750 um because your retina is not

sensitive to it okay so my one I've got

one red light and I can see that and the

near I can't visibly see yeah yeah

that's that's that's pretty and it's

probably the infrared one that you can't

see that's doing it's got the bigger

kick in it in terms of health right I

see okay because it's penetrating your

body

further okay right so we can get deeper

do you have any opinion on um the uh I

guess I don't know what you call the

nodes you can sort of stick up your nose

and they shine a light and yeah I do I

do because I had a colleague doing it

and I thought it was the most bizarre

thing on the planet but he had a longer

track record in in in this area of

research than I did um and he has been

one of the leaders in using red light

Parkinson's disease and he did all the

work on primate models of Parkinson's

disease and his rationale was well if

you stick it up your nose it's going to

get into your brain really quickly and

of course dealing with Parkinson's

disease he's actually dealing with a

deep brain structure that was his

rationale um I can only say that I hope

he washes it when he takes it

out yeah I'm sure don't we all um

interesting uh Dr Jeffy can I just end

with some quick fire questions for you

if you don't mind sure um okay so one of

my favorites what's the most notable

change you've made to your health in the

past five

years um the most noticeable change I've

made uh

doing 5 to 10 minutes yoga first thing

in the

morning oh I needed to hear that okay

you know that's because I'm getting old

I'm really aware that my back is getting

stiff

yeah I think the world needs to hear

that it's uh it's easy to neglect um

yeah and flexibility and it's so boring

but yeah 10 minutes is it's boring it is

terribly boring I find it so dull um

okay and are there any books you can

recommend that don't have to be necess

on lights or mitochondria but that maybe

shape your world

VI oh there's a big big big thick book

called um Power sex and suicide by Nick

Lane um that but that's that's a bit of

a that's a bit of an academic that's a

bit of an academic book but for anyone

who wants to dig there get their feet

into it then I'd do that and to be

honest with you when I go home I don't

read academic

books you know so I can probably give

you a list of novels I'm finding pretty

good but um you know when I look at when

I look around me I say Nick Lan's books

are very good they're extremely good but

um I'm just reading a John lary book at

the moment and thoroughly enjoying it

lovely you need a bit of both right you

need a bit of both do yeah yeah I've uh

yeah I've got Nick Lane's book on my um

my bookshelf and I don't want to start

it until I'm convinced I'm going to

finish it but it is daunting um yes it

really is and you most of his books are

but he heard him speak he seems very um

he comes across really well um and last

question from me if you could know one

thing in your field that you don't know

yet what would it

be okay this is where I'm going tomorrow

okay so when

I when we shine light sun when we shine

long wavelength light on people's bodies

we get all these changes in the in the

cyto kindes all these things are

happening and a physical Anthropologist

from America Nate came in and said tell

me about fire light and I went well

what' you want to know about fire light

and I said and I said oh yeah fire light

fire light's got lot of long wavelength

light in it and he said and I think this

is really great what has fire light got

to do with human evolution is there a

link between Fire Light particularly as

we move north is there a link between

Fire Light improving mitochondrial

function and something to do with human

evolution I find that absolutely

gripping you know Absolut when when

humans came out of East Africa and they

moved North okay fine they went to the

Lebanon and still nice and sunny they

went to Turkey still nice and sunny when

they finally ended up in tooting it

wasn't nice and sunny right it was great

it was miserable and they had to wear

lots of clothing is there a link between

how we advance in human evolution and

our brains Advance with Fire

Light that's that's I I really want to

know that one before I die God I would

love to read that

book I'll give you

yeah um well Dr Glenn Jeffrey that was

unbelievable thank you so much for

wasting your time with with this yo-yo

here there no way I told everybody in

the lab we got to stop doing science and

we got to start talking Because unless

we talk we're not going to get

traction well wonderful well I'm I'm no

doubt The Listener will have a a great

time listening to this conversation so

can't thank you once again for coming on

great thank you very much for your time