Truth in Telecoms, Robert Vis Part 2

Summary

In this discussion, the speaker delves into the challenges faced by messaging companies like Twilio, where traditional revenue models have been upended by carriers demanding a share of profits. The conversation touches on the impact of the Campaign Registry and the diminishing value proposition of messaging platforms. The speaker also shares insights on market manipulations, the future of RCS with Google and Apple, and the inevitable industry consolidation. They express a personal vendetta against certain industry players and predict a significant shift towards direct carrier agreements, rendering traditional messaging companies obsolete.

Takeaways

• 📉 The messaging industry, particularly companies like Twilio, has faced challenges due to carriers charging for messages, which has negatively impacted their business model.
• 💸 Companies that have made significant profits in the messaging industry have done so at a time when the market was more favorable, and some have since cashed out.
• 🚫 The establishment of the campaign registry by carriers in 2020 has further complicated the messaging business model by allowing carriers to charge for messages, thus reducing profitability.
• 🌐 The messaging industry is global, with different regions having different dynamics, and some companies have had to navigate complex relationships with carriers and other industry players.
• 💰 Some messaging companies have resorted to stock buybacks to inflate their stock prices, as seen with Twilio's $1.2 billion buyback in Q2 of a specific year.
• 📈 The speaker predicts a consolidation in the messaging industry, with larger companies potentially absorbing smaller ones, despite their current profitability.
• 🛑 The rise of RCS (Rich Communication Services) and the involvement of tech giants like Google and Apple may render traditional SMS and messaging platforms obsolete.
• 🏆 The speaker expresses a desire to build a brand in the US market, recognizing the potential for growth and the opportunity to differentiate from European markets.
• 💬 There is a significant focus on the future of messaging, with discussions about the role of technology, security, and the impact of fraudulent activities on the industry's reputation.
• ⚖️ Legal actions and disputes are mentioned as a part of the landscape, with some companies facing lawsuits and others navigating complex legal environments.

Q & A

What was the initial business model issue for companies like Twilio?

The initial issue was that companies like Twilio were charging customers per message, which was still cheaper than Europe, but the carriers eventually started charging them for the messages, significantly altering the business model.

What is the significance of the Campaign Registry in the messaging industry?

The Campaign Registry was created by carriers under the guise of stopping spam, but it enabled them to charge for messages, which started a couple of years ago and has been a significant change in the industry.

Why did the speaker mention CCH and their stock situation?

CCH is mentioned as an example of a company that has a large number of outstanding shares, which makes the stock price struggle to increase due to the sheer volume, illustrating the challenges in the market.

What did the speaker suggest about the future of messaging companies and their profitability?

The speaker suggested that many messaging companies have already made their money and the industry is moving towards a point where traditional messaging companies may not be as profitable due to changes in technology and market dynamics.

Why did the speaker mention an activist investor's role in Twilio?

The speaker mentioned activist investors in Twilio to illustrate how they are trying to inflate the stock price through buybacks, indicating the struggles and tactics used in the market.

What is the speaker's view on the role of violence in business?

The speaker is anti-violence and prefers to compete and 'torture' in business rather than through physical means, indicating a preference for legal and strategic competition.

What is the significance of the speaker's decision to leave the Netherlands?

Leaving the Netherlands was a significant move for the speaker as it was a big deal in their home country, and it signifies a transition to building a brand in the US market.

Why does the speaker believe there is no future in the European market for their company?

The speaker believes there is no future in the European market because of the saturation and the challenges in making significant profits there, suggesting a shift towards the US market.

What is the speaker's opinion on the role of RCS and the campaign registry in the future of messaging?

The speaker believes that the campaign registry and the need for intermediaries will become obsolete as RCS and direct connections with carriers and tech giants like Apple and Google become more prevalent.

Why is the speaker critical of certain practices in the messaging industry?

The speaker is critical because they see certain practices, like robotic account creation and kickbacks, as harmful to the industry's long-term health and trustworthiness.

Outlines

00:00

📉 Decline of Messaging Companies' Business Model

The speaker discusses the downfall of messaging companies like Twilio, which initially profited from sending messages and charging customers per message. However, the business model was disrupted when carriers started to charge for messages, leading to a decline in profitability. The speaker also touches on the broader impact on tech companies during this period and the shift to a new campaign registry that allowed carriers to charge for messages, further affecting the industry.

05:03

🏝️ Market Saturation and Entrepreneurial Exits

The paragraph delves into the market saturation and the strategic exits of entrepreneurs who made money and are now enjoying their earnings. It mentions the challenges faced by companies like Cinch, which have a large number of outstanding shares making their stock price struggle to increase. The speaker also discusses their own market observations and investments, as well as the competitive landscape and the strategies of companies like Thoron and Cinch in the messaging space.

10:04

🤝 The Shift in Messaging Industry Dynamics

This section covers the changing dynamics within the messaging industry, including the influence of organizations like MEF and the impact of carriers' decisions on the industry's structure. The speaker recounts personal experiences with industry figures and companies, highlighting the often tumultuous relationships and the strategic moves made by businesses to secure their positions, such as cashing out or going public.

15:06

🚫 The Erosion of Trust in SMS and the Rise of RCS

The speaker addresses the erosion of trust in SMS due to fraud and the rise of Rich Communication Services (RCS) as a potential solution. They discuss the challenges faced by legitimate companies in the messaging space and the role of carriers in the value chain. The paragraph also touches on the speaker's views on the future of messaging technologies and the potential impact of RCS on the industry.

20:09

📲 The Future of Messaging in the Age of RCS and Big Tech

The focus here is on the future of messaging with the advent of RCS and the involvement of tech giants like Google and Apple. The speaker speculates on the potential obsolescence of the campaign registry and the role of aggregators in the face of direct connections to these tech platforms. They also discuss the implications for companies like Cinch and the broader industry, suggesting a shift towards application-side value creation.

25:10

💼 Industry Consolidation and the Role of Established Organizations

In this final paragraph, the speaker predicts industry consolidation and the potential disappearance of certain business models. They emphasize the importance of respected organizations like the GSMA and ITU in the telecom sector and reflect on the speaker's own company's strategy and the broader market trends, including the challenges faced by companies like Cinch and the impact of Wall Street's perceptions on the industry.

Keywords

💡Twilio

Twilio is a cloud communications platform that enables software developers to programmatically make and receive phone calls, send and receive text messages, and perform other communication functions. In the video, Twilio is mentioned in the context of being a company that charges customers for sending messages, which was still cheaper than Europe, indicating its role in the messaging industry and its pricing model.

💡Campaign Registry

The Campaign Registry is a system established by mobile carriers to combat spam and unwanted messages. It allows carriers to charge a fee for each message sent, which is mentioned in the script as a way for carriers to gain a revenue share from messaging services. The registry is portrayed as a significant factor that affected the business models of messaging companies.

💡Messaging Monopolies

The term 'Messaging Monopolies' refers to the dominance of certain players in the messaging industry, potentially leading to unfair market practices. The script mentions a report on messaging monopolies, suggesting an analysis of how a few companies control a large portion of the messaging market, impacting competition and pricing.

💡Stock Buybacks

Stock buybacks are when a company purchases its own shares from the market, typically to increase the value of remaining shares or to make use of cash reserves. The video discusses Twilio's buybacks as a strategy to inflate the stock price, indicating the company's efforts to manage its market valuation.

💡SMS Spoofing

SMS spoofing is the act of sending SMS messages with a fake sender ID. It's a form of identity theft used in scams and fraud. The script touches on this issue, expressing concerns about the security of SMS messaging and the potential for misuse, which is a significant concern for the industry.

💡RCS (Rich Communication Services)

RCS is a communication protocol aimed at enhancing the traditional SMS with features like group chats, read receipts, and better multimedia support. The video discusses RCS in the context of its potential to revolutionize messaging and its collaboration with Apple, suggesting a shift in the messaging landscape towards more advanced and integrated services.

💡Aggregator

In the context of the video, an aggregator refers to a company that consolidates various communication channels or services. The discussion implies that the role of aggregators might be diminishing as direct connections between carriers and platforms like Google and Apple become more prevalent.

💡Interoperability

Interoperability is the ability of different systems or components to work together. The video mentions the importance of interoperability in the context of RCS and its potential to work across different platforms and carriers, indicating a move towards more unified and seamless communication services.

💡Anti-competitive

Anti-competitive practices are actions that unfairly limit competition in a market. The script refers to potential anti-competitive behavior within the messaging industry, suggesting that some companies may be engaging in practices that hinder fair competition and market access.

💡Regulators

Regulators are government agencies responsible for overseeing and ensuring fair practices within industries. The video mentions regulators in the context of the messaging industry, implying that there may be a need for oversight and regulation to ensure fair practices and protect consumers.

Highlights

Twilio and similar companies initially profited from sending messages and charging customers per message, which was cheaper than European rates.

The business model for messaging companies was disrupted when carriers started charging for messages, significantly impacting the industry.

The carriers created the campaign registry in 2020 under anti-spam guidelines, which allowed them to charge for messages, further changing the landscape for messaging companies.

Some messaging companies have already made significant profits, while others like Cinch are struggling due to the market saturation and the number of outstanding shares.

Twilio conducted a $1.2 billion buyback in Q2 to appease activist investors, highlighting the stock's struggle despite such efforts.

The interviewee suggests that the messaging industry is moving towards consolidation, with larger players like Salesforce and Cisco potentially taking the lead.

The interviewee criticizes the Campaign Registry and its association with what they view as fraudulent practices in the messaging industry.

There's a prediction that the industry will shift rapidly with the adoption of RCS and direct integration with tech giants like Google and Apple, making current messaging platforms obsolete.

The interviewee expresses a desire to build a brand in the US, recognizing the potential for growth and the need to separate personal identity from the company brand.

The discussion touches on the challenges of making money in Europe compared to the US, suggesting a strategic move towards the latter for business expansion.

The interviewee shares personal anecdotes about dealing with industry players, including a confrontation with a competitor that led to a deeper involvement in the industry's politics.

The conversation hints at potential legal actions against certain players in the messaging industry, indicating a highly competitive and litigious environment.

The interviewee discusses the importance of creating value for customers rather than focusing solely on short-term financial gains, emphasizing long-term business strategy.

There's a mention of the potential for RCS to revolutionize the messaging industry by providing a direct channel between brands and customers, bypassing traditional SMS.

The interview concludes with a discussion on the future of the messaging industry, with a focus on the need for innovation and adaptation to new technologies like RCS.

Transcripts

essentially companies like twio being

paid to send messages and charging their

customers you know 809 whatever it was

per message which by the way was still

significantly cheaper than Europe but

like free is free um and then I think

what turned for them and they were sort

of double unlucky um one markets turned

it wasn't just twio I mean you know they

were worth 70 billion where many other

companies were worth a gazillion dollars

that that uh in in that time frame so

they H so they had that uh downside and

the carriers finally got smart and we're

like hey why are we not getting you know

any any of this rep share of this of

this message from this brand and they

started charging um too and that those

two things killed the business model but

that that only started in 2020 the

carriers created the campaign registry

and you should go read Allen's messaging

monopolies report they started the

campaign registry under the guidelines

of wanting to stop spam but what they

enabled is now the ability to charge a

half a penny and up to a penny uh per

message through this [ __ ]

registration process through you know an

entity called The Campaign registry so

that didn't really start till a couple

of years ago what my angle is all of

these guys in messaging all anybody's

already made their money youve either

made your money and you're sitting on a

beach like the guys at CCH and they have

900 million outstanding shares you want

to know why their stock could never go

up not because of you or twillo or

anybody else because there's a billion

shares it's like a penny stock right so

I study the markets I watch the markets

and that's what I play and that's what I

watch you can't buy cinch because

there's too many shares it's like Wolf

of Wall Street [ __ ] it you can't it

can't it can't go up right why is twio

doing twio did a 1.2 billion dollars in

Buybacks in Q2 and this year alone and

they did it because the activist

investors are trying to inflate it

didn't even work yeah if they didn't do

the BuyBacks the stock would be 35 right

now right so what I'm say to you is you

got out right there's winners and

there's losers and you know the Cinch

guys they work very closely with thoron

I I remember when Meo uh Meo started

giving him all kinds of problems and

this is when I first did a deal with

Thorson and they literally s me to go

like torture this kid so I met this kid

andreao and they thought I guess they

thought I was a thug because I kind of

talk like one but I'm antiviolence I I

would rather sue you for like a hundred

years and torture you in business then I

just don't I can't even watch UFC

fighting because to me it's inhuman um

I'm going to go meet this kid and these

day was so angry with this guy on on

what he did what he was doing to them

but it was just trivial [ __ ] so they

had their little cabal going those guys

but CCH cashed out Jeff lawon bought the

on he cashed out you cashed in for CCH

they're trying to do they're trying to

do an IPO I mean to poor infit they're

trying to do an IPO right now because

they got $800 million from JP Morgan sub

one Equity they're forced it's the only

way they're getting their money but at

point I think the point of my first

question is you answered it when you saw

this coming and now you're heading to

the big leagues and you're really going

to the big leag you're talking about

Salesforce you're talking about Cisco

now merging and by the way they all have

directs by the way infobus got directs

right now right Cisco's got directs I

mean and I know you're working through

cin but you don't don't view that

because you're giving it away I'm just

trying to

understand uh on your angle on on what

you're doing I guess I guess it's kind

of too early for me to ask you that

question but one more thing before we go

when you decided to leave the

Netherlands it was a big deal right it

was a big deal in your country right and

your brand is huge over there and then I

see you on X and I'm saying to myself

and I listen to you talk because you

separate your own identity from your

country your company you know a lot of

people do that uh and smart

entrepreneurs SM CEOs I'm a fan of of of

real leaders like you are um when are

you gonna start building your brand in

the US like really building it because

you're gonna they're gonna love you over

here because you're never going to make

money in

Europe I mean people I mean I have I I I

thank you for all the compliments but I

have I have so much like okay let me let

me go back one if you don't mind let me

go back on on one uh

day make your make your podcast longer I

I think that look whether it's campaign

registry or

uh like what is what is that mobile

economic for MEF and me meth was a porn

was a porn site right where the guys got

together Allan writes a story about them

meth was started long time ago but

gerchman got involved with meth to stop

Meo and those guys he didn't know what

to do so they

started no gersman is a chairman of meth

all right me's now involved they let

they let they let Meo in and look I know

Andrea I went to go play golf with this

kid I played four days of golf with this

guy Andrea I didn't know him but I knew

him from The Voice days because I come

from voice he used to be a call Trad so

a buddy of mine said look this guy Andre

is a good guy he's just a hustler and he

just out hustled the [ __ ] out of those

guys and created a business however

anybody wants to look at it he's just

making money he'll never be sold he'll

never go public he's just making money

but youo meth meth is just an organized

crime family uh where you pay and you

get your messages across that's all it

is and and and and look it's okay

there's nothing wrong with it it's it's

a catering hall where you go to and you

pay the catering guy to get a voice but

this is my point but this is my this is

this is my point so we've never been a

member of all these of all these

[ __ ] organizations

and you had this whole time period when

like they forced carriers that if you

want wanted to if you wanted to send

across a like it was crazy you would in

order there was like so like we were

asked to be founding member of be we

denied and like and nobody could ever

explain to me what their so what their

sole purpose was combat fraud I was like

yeah but the frauds there are on your

board so like that's kind of crazy like

so we never so so so we we never we we

never and U so so we never participated

but there was this time and it worked

out because I don't know if there's

still relevant but like it at the time

five years ago this was wild you had

like you could not get a car connection

without being a member of MEF and like

we had to fight hard in order to

basically be like hey hold on I'm a m of

G I didn't know this this is pretty bad

that's that's that's what that's what

look that's what they did that's what

the guys C did the guys as C smart these

boys are smart they cash out they made

their money they kick back money back to

soft bank and said here sorry we robbed

you here take your money back and now

they got a$2 billion company they did

what they did but Memphis still the same

way I mean they did a hit piece on my

CEO who was the former Chief counsel

head of cyber security for the United

States Coast Guard you don't get a

higher security clearance and they hire

this this this fat Misfit from commrisk

who they just hired back to write a hit

piece on this guy I mean this is the

kind of trivial stuff we loved it I

don't know if you're sure thear they

pick ited his event because they

wouldn't let a woman on the board

there's a lot of stuff that you need to

know but I think I want to see you

succeed and I want to understand how

you're going to navigate in the US and

also build a brand I think if you can

build your brand because there's nobody

Who's Got a Brand in the industry Jeff

laon went on TV and live oh I love you

I'm GNA give money to the homeless I do

this well as he was robbing the [ __ ] out

of you never talking about how he was

ever gonna make money for his show or

how his company was ever going to be

profitable so I view you as a breath of

fresh air and look I just want to buy I

want to buy in on the IPO to be honest

with you I think I you have to be doing

an IPO at some point and you can't tell

me you're going to do this Europe you

just can't we will never IPO in Europe

but

like my and that will never happen but

like uh for many for many I mean by the

way I mean look at all the I mean I

don't know if you can follow me or next

you see the crazy [ __ ] going on right

now where like they're arresting

founders of platforms I mean look I

don't I'm not I don't we don't know

exactly why he was arrested so let's

start there pav the founder of telegram

so provided that the information that we

do know is true this is because you

wouldn't play ball this is the most wild

we over here in the US no he was

arrested you either play ball look

Google just made an assassination

attempt disappear on their search and

said yeah we met it we messed up so look

it it just it's just a world we live in

Robert but you're still safe over here

no matter how crazy people think it is

right or left it's all the same they all

end up working it out together in the US

but that guy's got a problem he's

screwed yeah yeah he does have it seems

like he has a real he he just he just

hired Quin Emanuel a lawyer who just got

off he was elon's lawyer he was also um

Alec Baldwin's lawyer the guy that shot

the guy in the movie Set they hired uh

his name is Alex I forget his name is

but Quin Emanuel one of my attorneys um

his wife is a partner there I mean he's

gonna fight this thing all the way

through but he's gonna have to play

ballert it's very simple yeah but it's

it's crazy it's crazy it's like it's

like the most the like the most wild

things are happening at the moment so

like on your on your point on United

States and on your point on the future

of the company I mean

one this is a long haul game I think the

problem that people have in this

industry is that they're too short

minded and they're too focused on money

and not focused on creating value for

customers yeah and and telecoms allowed

that because there's a significant

amount of money whether you're on let's

say you know if you divide the industry

into like sort of like three buckets you

have like red bucket which are all the

frauders and all those guys and uh then

you have sort of like the gry line

bucket that are like kind ofish kind of

not like you you know just depends

whether it's Monday or Tuesday and then

you have the uh sort of like people that

are trying to stay on the right right

right side of the line I think between

all of them the problem is 90% of the

industry is between red and gray and

there's only very maybe even 95 or 99 so

it's there's only very few people that

are that are trying to sort of like stay

there and if you want to be on that side

then you need a l then this is a long ha

game because what you're actually

breaking through is interconnectedness

of

like so many different Legacy agreements

and industries and people that is the

reason why you should just take

tinch because I tell you why because you

could buy you can get it for a price

that it would shock you but there's

nothing but there's nothing that tinch

has that I want I think they have the

they have a connectivity platform we

have more I have more I have more

connections than tinch I have a better

platform than ttin you definitely don't

you definitely don't have a better

platform than you don't not not on

messaging connectivities not even close

sorry

sorry I can't

stand look got got German 24 hours seven

humping his own he humps it himself but

but he doesn't make but if if he had if

it was so great it would make more money

like no it doesn't make more money

because he doesn't want to make more

money all he wants to to him it's a

shrine to himself he doesn't care he's

not interested building I think think I

think no but I I look I'll be I'll be

honest before they hate me but like I'm

also serious I think I'm not what I'm

not saying I don't think tinch is

interesting for us because honestly like

with due respect to tinch I think I have

a better platform but like and I have

more connectivity than than tinch Etc

that said that said tinch has unique

assets that are uniquely positioned for

the markets that's why you know we're a

customer they're a customer etc etc so

there's nothing wrong wrong with tinch I

think they're great they're a great

company there's a lotong with TCH I'm

just trying to sell it to you because

you're my last chance IED to sell it I'm

not a buyer the other thing is like it's

like I I it's just like what like you

know these days I mean they could give

it to me for free that's fine but like

you know I'd be happy I know I know I'm

serious like I'm I'm happy to take I you

didn't hear my conversation we were

willing to take stock in a company that

was getting bought I said free I said

free not stock I'm not giving stock

either no stock is

paper you you can give stock look kch

has got value to it it's definitely

value 600 million in cash for spark post

because I didn't want to give away any

stock yeah I don't give I'm not a St I'm

not a stock Giver um that's why I still

control the company that's why I still

so like fair enough it's it's no but but

I think T has unique assets I think a

good buyer for a company like tinac and

by the way many messaging companies out

there no there's going to be no fire

because there's going to be litigation

coming out and that's doing business

with them that is a partner of them I'm

going after them too they owe me9

million point blank blank Point Blank

hey now first you try to sell me

something and then you're gonna sue me

you my last chance you you were my last

chance to sell it so at the end of the

day me and th are not gonna get along

I'm not gonna make a deal with him I

would rather burn the money that he's

trying to offer me which is pennies

compared to what he owes me I saved him

him and his his little sidekick there uh

they basically were fire from their

company I enabled them to do a

management buyout I gave these guys

everything and then they screwed me so

this is personal and cpio partners the

fund that owes them they're also run a

company called wire which competes with

M telegram so they're a PE group out of

Germany that I hate more than I can I I

don't hate dorsy because I understand

the animal right he's just a disgusting

lunatic and he he's not a good guy but

the guys that cpio partners are the most

treacherous PE group and you know pees

right these guys threw out Allan Durk of

wire so you know I was gonna I was gonna

do a post on them and start going after

them hey why don't you tell us what

happened what you did with the guy from

telegram CIO because they play that game

too because they're they're a

competitor of telegram but they're a

competitor of telegram on a corporate

level with governments which is kind of

amazing how a private Equity Group

treacherous cpio Partners so cpio

Partners is in there we're gonna start

sooning I'm gonna file a RICO suit on

them that I'm calling it out right here

and Rico's a bad word right Rico you

know Rico means r icio that not good it

was developed for organized crime they

organized crime I used to I used to look

I used to watch Miami Vice so I know so

look I don't really care anymore you

were their last chance to be honest with

you we're gonna hit the mat I don't care

dorson just tried to have me arrested in

Germany he said he's got a judgment to

put me in jail in Germany for a LinkedIn

post so this is how much of a lunatic he

is um and then he had a

lawyer but these Fe but like I I you

know what I think I you know what I

think I honestly I think

like the the problem is

that even with this is this is my honest

you're going to get my you're gonna get

my Dutch bluntness now like go for it

with the even with the best intentions

I'm assume best intentions I I hear

everything that you're saying uh I'm

going to assume that people are

reasonable people and whatever agreement

they made with you that they that they

have some uh uh dignity to um um to do

that I think the problem now is whatever

the past is there just is it's one of

those things there just isn't there

there there isn't a world where where

it's there's also no like the problem

about m&a also right now is that like

there's no like why in an if you're

somebody crazy like me that's saying the

whole industry is dead um right you

basically get the CEO from Vox solution

called me by the way had an hour

conversation with that guy he's really

smart he kind of pinned the whole AI ke

on the aggregators and Enterprise large

Enterprise which is really an

interesting conversation you should have

a conversation with that guy he's

smarter than people think this is the

CEO of Vox but look you're right right

it's over but but he's but he's but but

he's right of course everybody knows

this robotic robotic autom robotic

accounts creation okay so AIT explains

yeah in like a in like a heartbeat it uh

it's very simple it's basically robotic

account creation on big Brands generates

SMS traffic the SMS traffic somewhere in

the chain in the value chain gets a

kickback from a carrier there is no way

that it otherwise works right because at

some point like people are not doing it

for fun so like you know there there's

money to be made so the only way this

works is that at the end you have a

carrier the carrier has to give some

sort of rev share on that messaging and

if you generate enough robotic accounts

then essentially you will make M you you

will you will make money and there's

almost no way to stop it

because there's like we we we like so so

you so it's like you you just you you

kind of can't get out of it what it will

do is and this is what they don't I mean

they don't give a [ __ ] because they're

the ones they're making all the money at

the moment and but like the what people

don't understand is that what they're

really doing is killing the industry

because it's like this is why if people

think legitimate companies are in this

space like there's no like there's no

benefit to a company like ours or cinch

or any of you know any of the legitimate

PLO or like any of these platforms have

no benefit to this because essentially

the more that this happens the more

distrust there comes to to SMS and you

already have the whole thing on SMS

where you like you know you can spoof

the you can basically intercept the

message if you're close enough to the to

the poll and like do that so it always

had it always had that negative uh

thought already but the benefit of it

was that it was fast and it always

worked so people misunderstand they go

OHS is so unsafe it's so unsafe but if

you know anything about security

security is not about risk exclusion

it's about risk management because

nothing is 100% secure what'sapp is like

you know so like look there there's

products there are products that are

coming out on the identity side that

would make the whole please don't start

talking about please don't start talking

me to me about this one company I I I

not a company it's not a company you

don't even know about [ __ ] there's a

company you don't know about and I'll

tell you Offline that just raised is

doing a huge raise and they've got

identity down to the Sim level to where

because some some companies look for the

mobile phone if you're using a mobile

phone they have no way of De of knowing

if you have a signal aot if you think

you have three bars and they know what

three bars is it means nothing because

they don't test networks down to the the

handset this company's been reverse

engineering it down to the handset and

has been testing with four of the five

biggest operators in the world four the

five biggest mobile operators in the

world are launching with this I'll tell

Will you hate me if I'm critical will

you hate me if I'm critical that doesn't

matter to me because I don't own I don't

okay so so this is so this is my view on

all these companies it's like I've heard

a thousand companies come up with with a

thousand different ways to do this the

problem is it's not about the solution

it's not that's not that's not

irrelevant Brands don't give a [ __ ]

you're going to get completely different

Technologies we talking the banks care

but yeah but they don't but but not but

not really because we have litigation

there there's there hearings going on

right now Australia is trying to say the

banks don't owe the money they're trying

to screw people out of 2.8 billion in

the US there's legislation right now is

coming on and they're G sols

the banks are gonna be liable and if the

banks are liable for the tens of

billions you're G to see Solutions yes

but not but not on a Telo level and the

reason is because not onco level is just

one level one aspect of it it's just s

swap it's all it is it solves s swap it

solves the ability to know if that's

actually you on the handset that did the

transaction it's just one RCS but R RCS

solves that problem WhatsApp solves that

problem Pass Key solves that problem not

entirely and I one more question on you

because look you're a lot smarter than

me you know this I I know this business

by accident so let me ask you a question

how do you see RCS and Google and apple

and and and coming in between the US

with the campaign registry so right now

you're in the US you want to get a

campaign uh you got to register with the

campaign registry what happens because

when I tried to buy the camp no there is

no Campa I'm saying I tried to buy the

campaign registry right right and I

don't know if you know this year I put

public we did press releases we went

after those criminals in Clair in Italy

they got away with Robin Millions

doesn't matter now bottom line is I I

met a senior guy at executive he wanted

to join our board because he told me

Google was gonna buy it the minute they

merg and do this thing with Apple so

apple and R RCS and apple come together

where do you see the campaign registry

why do you need

it you don't

exactly hey you don't no they're trying

to sell it right now for 200 plus

million dollar oh no right the industry

will what this is this is what's going

to happen one day one day they're all

going to wake up like get their get

their sleep out of their eyes it could

be like this and like holy [ __ ] [ __ ]

what happened and the industry will have

moved from left to right overnight yeah

yep there is no need there's no need

there's no need for hubs there's no need

for SMS there's no need for these things

aren't necessary anymore if you if you

are a preapproved or approved brand by

Apple or by Google or by the carrier and

they will probably do like if if you're

there is no there is no they're

bypassing all this technology I mean In

fairness to Google and I've been one of

I've been one of the biggest critical

people on on RCS they all hated me for a

long time because I never never wanted

to invest in it even though we have all

this Omni Channel stuff but I will give

it to them I will give it to them and my

reason was actually very simple it's not

that I didn't believe in the tech the

tech was always really good but I but

you need to distribution in order to

make the tech work so I didn't believe

in the distribution and without the

distribution you you you're not you're

not able to make the tech uh work with

the in with the interoperability with

apple you now have distribution so all

the carriers are playing ball every

single one of them in the most difficult

I mean uh us and I'll give you an

example us and cinch are the only two

companies in the world that are directly

connected to all the Singaporean care uh

carriers and you might think why is

Singapore so important all people don't

know is that Singapore has the highest

amount of messages per person uh in the

world so it has actually very low

penetration in terms of amounts of

people but it has extremely high amount

amount of messages so it's not actually

a small country um uh that that people

think no it's a very it's a very

important country altoe with uh uh money

between China and the US yeah but let

Rob finish let Robert finish so so in so

so what so what you're now getting is

that all the carriers are gonna are

going to play ball and you see it in

Europe you see it in Asia you see it in

the unit in United States it'll take a

little bit a while because RCS only work

on latest phones and updated Etc but

it's a but it's a but at the end of the

day like it's just it's a it's a sliding

scale right like every month every

quarter it will just go up and up and up

and up and the industry will move and

the interesting thing is if you go back

to our pricing strategy this is why

we're giving it away for free because

there is no more money the money is gone

what's going to happen is that carers

why do you need me you need me as an

abstraction layer across many different

channels that's what an aggregator would

say yeah so first you need exraction

layer across all the carriers around the

world well that industry is gone because

now you just have one connection to

Google and like you're you're you're

done so so that's so that's a sort of

Industry too then you have okay but now

you have multiple channels just three

fies WhatsApp other other channels great

but that's not really a high margin

business right because like now again

you're in like a compressing uh

compressing margin uh business in order

to do this so this business doesn't

exist and people will not realize it it

just doesn't exist so what we did is we

moved on to the application side with

all the experience that we have because

I do think that like being in this

industry and understanding all the

channels and all the complexity and all

the different like if you a file has to

be compressed on this channel to this

file size but on that one on that one

and you know there's so if you're a

brand you care about that stuff a lot

and security and and all that sort of

stuff so but it's about what you do with

a channel that's where the value is it's

where the value for us as a company is

the value for the brand is the value

Downstream in all of these like

different connections that was really

great business and I still love it to

death and I I don't want the industry to

die but it will die there is no industry

left and people need to start realizing

this that there is no indry left and

whatever like all these other companies

W Street wall Street's already wall

Street's realized that already they're

done wet of course but this is because

every industry analyst like also like I

don't I don't get a lot of views but

every industry Analyst at least reads

what I say and like it's but it's also

logical they they don't needed it up

because if they actually heard you and

understood you the big play here and the

podcast should read short everybody

which is what I did nine months ago and

I had IND is going all day long on a

free what do I think it's all short one

big short on a I I still be careful

about that like on a free cash flow

basis I would say that where they're

valued right now I don't think is like

they're not crazy overvalued because

it's it's it's the value right now I you

have cash in the bank it's where are

they going so you took a look you take a

look oh yeah you take a five so it's

it's a threee short long is what I'm

saying and and and they got a CFO in

there right now who a b en counter who

spent years working with Jeff emlet who

destroyed our greatest country in

company America GI what I'm on the

record I do not give investment

advice I am not an investment advisor

I'm not an investment advisor either but

look the writing's on the wall um the

whole industry is a short so you're

saying you and

cinch see this com what is cinch gonna

do I can't bad question I hope I hope I

I hope they one day I mean I definitely

hope one day I hope one day when you log

into if I was a cinch customer and I had

to go to that login screen and see 30

different brands to choose from to log

in for because nobody ever uh like

brought all the platforms together I

would just be like maybe they should

focus their first sorry I don't mean to

jab I don't I don't mean to jab them

look they don't care they made their

money you have to understand some these

guys made their money they hired they

they they they I I think I think what's

going to happen which is not something

that I would like but I think this is

what's going to happen my prediction

would be at some point these companies

are going to consolidate and it won't be

us I will guarantee you that I will go

into record and say I'm not buying any

of them I'm definitely not consolidating

with them Ian I don't have the I don't

have the money I don't I'm never giving

them any of my share like this will

never happen but like so I so I won't be

the one but I think if you're a large

public company or still a private

company

um I think what will happen is you will

consolidate into and they will create a

big group and there's some

anti-competitive there so I think the

problem I think the anti competitors at

meth when they wouldn't let you get

agreements that type mean I mean like I

mean like actual Regulators yeah not

fake ones it's funny how me is sitting

here telling us what to do in the US

isn't that amazing except they got

thrown out of the CTI event they thought

they were the gsma and the gsma has been

quite a bit of years but the gsma but if

you talk about look do leg organizations

in the world that we've always been a

member of and that I think are very very

respectful is gsma and itu right

numbering organization on the it side

and the gsma these are respectable

Telecom organizations that understand

Telco that don't go with the wave

they're not like they to like do

anything they also make their money and

they they charge you a lot and like it's

okay but they're respectful they're

respectable or uh respectable

organizations everybody around one more

question so er just this is like these

Awards sorry one more thing