Bitcoin Will Change El Salvador’s Future! | Michael Peterson
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful discussion, Michael Peterson, a key figure in El Salvador's Bitcoin revolution, shares his experiences from the ground up. El Salvador, once plagued by violence and economic instability, has seen a remarkable transformation with Bitcoin's adoption. Peterson highlights how Bitcoin has empowered locals with financial autonomy, spurred economic growth, and improved security. The conversation underscores the potential of cryptocurrency to catalyze positive change in developing economies, emphasizing the importance of community involvement and personal responsibility in driving social progress.
Takeaways
- 🌏 The world is facing numerous challenges such as political instability, food poisoning, and a general sense of darkness, but there are glimmers of hope emerging from unexpected places.
- 🔦 Michael Peterson has been instrumental in sparking a revolution in El Salvador using Bitcoin, an unconventional tool that has gained global attention.
- 🇸🇻 El Salvador's transformation from one of the most dangerous countries to one of the safest has been remarkable, with significant improvements in safety and economic outlook.
- 🏖️ Michael Peterson's work began in El Zonte, a small beach community, which has now become a symbol of hope and change known as Bitcoin Beach.
- 💡 The introduction of Bitcoin has had a profound impact on the mindset of the local population, encouraging long-term thinking and hope for the future.
- 📉 Despite the volatility of Bitcoin, its adoption in El Salvador has provided an alternative to the traditional financial system, offering financial inclusion to the unbanked.
- 🛍️ Businesses in El Salvador have started accepting Bitcoin, leading to a growing ecosystem where Bitcoin is used for transactions and daily purchases.
- 🏘️ The real estate market around Bitcoin Beach has experienced a boom, reflecting the increased interest and investment in the area.
- 👥 There is a growing demand for skilled workers in El Salvador as the economy expands, prompting improvements in the education system to meet the needs of new businesses.
- 🤝 The synergy between government initiatives and grassroots movements like Bitcoin Beach has contributed to El Salvador's progress and global recognition.
- 🌱 The potential for Bitcoin to foster a savings culture even among those with low incomes has been demonstrated, as people begin to understand the value of deferred gratification.
Q & A
What significant transformation has El Salvador experienced in recent years?
-El Salvador has transitioned from being one of the most dangerous countries in the world to becoming the safest country in the Americas, with a significant decrease in violence and an increase in economic activity.
What role did Bitcoin play in the changes occurring in El Salvador?
-Bitcoin was used as a tool to spark a revolution in El Salvador, providing an alternative financial system and fostering economic growth, especially in areas like Bitcoin Beach.
How did the Bitcoin Beach project start and what was its initial impact?
-The Bitcoin Beach project started as a small initiative in El Zonte, a beach community in El Salvador, with the aim of changing the mindset of the youth and providing them with a new perspective on money and saving.
What challenges did El Salvador face before the adoption of Bitcoin?
-El Salvador faced high levels of violence, extortion, and economic instability, with many businesses being forced to close due to the inability to pay extortion fees demanded by gangs.
How did the local community in El Zonte respond to the introduction of Bitcoin?
-The introduction of Bitcoin led to a change in the mindset of the local community, with people starting to think about money differently, understand deferred gratification, and consider the long-term value of their earnings.
What was the impact of Bitcoin on the local businesses in El Zonte?
-Bitcoin helped local businesses by providing an alternative means of transaction, which was particularly useful during the COVID-19 lockdown when traditional economic activities were disrupted.
How did the government of El Salvador get involved with the Bitcoin Beach project?
-The government got involved after recognizing the positive impact of the project on the local community and seeing it as a way to change the country's narrative from one of violence to one of innovation.
What has been the role of President Nayib Bukele in El Salvador's Bitcoin adoption?
-President Nayib Bukele has been instrumental in embracing Bitcoin as legal tender in El Salvador, shaking up the traditional political landscape and pursuing real change, including going after corruption within his own party.
How has the Bitcoin adoption impacted remittances in El Salvador?
-Bitcoin adoption has the potential to significantly impact remittances by providing a more convenient and cost-effective way for Salvadorans abroad to send money back home, although the full impact is still unfolding.
What are some of the challenges faced by the Bitcoin Beach project in terms of adoption and usage?
-Some challenges include volatility in Bitcoin's value, which can affect people's purchasing power, and the need to educate people on the benefits of using Bitcoin and how to manage its volatility for daily transactions.
What is the future outlook for Bitcoin in El Salvador according to the transcript?
-The future outlook is positive, with continued growth in Bitcoin adoption and its integration into the daily lives of Salvadorans, although it is expected to be a gradual process rather than an immediate transformation.
Outlines
🌏 A Glimmer of Hope in Darkness
The script opens with a discussion of global turmoil, mentioning assassination attempts, government coups, and poisoned food, painting a bleak picture. However, it introduces a hopeful narrative emerging from El Salvador, where Michael Peterson is spearheading a 'revolution' using Bitcoin. The conversation highlights El Salvador's transformation from being one of the world's most dangerous countries to a safer one, largely due to the adoption of Bitcoin. Michael shares his experiences from the past 20 years, detailing the escalation of gang violence post-housing crisis and the drastic changes that have occurred, making the once war-zone-like conditions unrecognizable to newcomers.
🔄 From Peril to Potential: El Salvador's Transformation
This paragraph delves deeper into El Salvador's past dangers, including rampant extortion affecting even small vendors, leading to a cycle of violence and economic decline. The discussion shifts to the impact of Bitcoin and the concurrent political changes under President Nayib Bukele, who pursued anti-corruption measures. The introduction of Bitcoin, particularly in El Zonte (Bitcoin Beach), is highlighted as a catalyst for positive change, improving education, safety, and economic outlook. The narrative emphasizes the synergy between government initiatives and grassroots Bitcoin adoption, which has put El Salvador on the global stage.
🚀 The Spark of Bitcoin Beach
The origin story of Bitcoin Beach is explored, starting with Michael and his wife's move to El Salvador for missionary work. Initially focused on community development and youth programs, the project evolved with the integration of Bitcoin, inspired by an anonymous donor interested in fostering Bitcoin circular economies. The donor's vision was to see Bitcoin not just as an investment but as a currency that could change societal dynamics. The implementation began with paying youth for community service in Bitcoin, sparking curiosity and a shift in their understanding of money and savings.
🌐 The Ripple Effects of Bitcoin Integration
The narrative discusses the challenges and successes of integrating Bitcoin into the community of El Zonte amidst the COVID-19 pandemic. The use of Bitcoin as a stimulus during lockdowns helped sustain families and businesses, avoiding economic collapse. The script also touches on the broader implications of Bitcoin adoption, such as reduced remittance fees due to competition with traditional money transfer services. It highlights the gradual but significant shift towards Bitcoin, even among those not directly using it, and the overall economic benefits for El Salvador.
📉 Navigating Bitcoin's Volatility
This section addresses the impact of Bitcoin's price fluctuations on El Salvador's economy and the local response to it. The community's initial reaction to crashes was one of panic, but this was met with education and reassurance from the Bitcoin advocates. The script mentions the adaptation strategies of locals, such as using different wallets to mitigate risks during volatile periods. It also contrasts the challenges of Bitcoin's volatility with the freedom and financial inclusion it offers, especially to the unbanked population.
🏗️ Building a Future with Bitcoin
The script outlines the ongoing development in El Salvador, driven by the hope and energy brought about by Bitcoin and supportive government policies. It discusses the country's shift from high unemployment to a booming job market, particularly in construction and service industries. The influx of investment and businesses has led to a demand for skilled workers, prompting improvements in the education system. The narrative underscores the country's rapid transformation, akin to the early days of Bitcoin, and its role as a testbed for Bitcoin usability and adoption.
🤝 The Human Connection in Philanthropy
The final paragraph reflects on the importance of personal involvement in helping others, rather than relying solely on government programs. It criticizes the lack of personal giving and the sense of entitlement fostered by state handouts. The conversation advocates for a return to direct, human-scale philanthropy, where the joy of giving and the gratitude of receiving are both palpable and impactful. It calls for a mindset shift in the Bitcoin community and beyond, encouraging the use of personal resources to make a difference in the world.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Dark World
💡Glimmering Hope
💡Bitcoin
💡El Salvador
💡Assassinations and Coups
💡Michael Peterson
💡Bitcoin Beach
💡Extortion
💡President Nayib Bukele
💡Lifeguard Program
💡Remittances
Highlights
El Salvador's transformation from one of the most dangerous countries to one of the safest in the Americas.
The unlikely use of Bitcoin as a tool for economic and social change in El Salvador.
Michael Peterson's grassroots efforts in El Salvador, fostering a Bitcoin-based revolution.
The stark contrast between El Salvador's past gang violence and its current hopeful outlook.
The introduction of Bitcoin in El Salvador, coinciding with a shift in political will towards positive change.
The impact of Bitcoin on local communities, including increased high school attendance and college enrollment.
The challenges faced by El Salvador's economy due to extortion, affecting both locals and businesses.
How Bitcoin is being used as a stimulus and lifeline for communities during the COVID-19 crisis.
The importance of aligning incentives for individuals to save and invest in their future through Bitcoin.
The role of Bitcoin in facilitating remittances and reducing reliance on traditional money transfer services.
The influence of El Salvador's Bitcoin adoption on the development of cryptocurrency payment infrastructure.
The emergence of Bitcoin Beach as a model for circular Bitcoin economies worldwide.
The philosophical and practical debate on individual responsibility versus state welfare in societal support systems.
The personal stories of transformation through Bitcoin, from immediate consumption to future planning.
The potential of Bitcoin to empower the unbanked and provide financial inclusion globally.
The call to action for the Bitcoin community to engage in direct community support and philanthropy.
The ongoing evolution of El Salvador's economy and society with the integration of Bitcoin.
Transcripts
in a world that's seemingly going dark
it's bad everywhere you look attempted
assassinations coups on the government
the foods being poisoned and there's no
problem finding bad in this world
there's a glimmering hope there's a
there's a there's a light coming from
the most unlikely place in the world
right now and so rather than focusing on
the dark let's focus on the light and
let's think about a better future now
somebody who's been on the ground boots
on the ground helping to spark that
Revolution if we'll call it that um is
Michael Peterson Michael Peterson
started a movement down there using the
most unlikely tool which is Bitcoin
which is now on the global
stage so U Michael thanks for sitting
down with me hey it's great to be here
with you again yeah yeah it's been a
while since we caught up um The
glimmering Shining hope that we have um
of a little unlikely country uh it's
pretty amazing um hopefully people been
paying attention I mean El Salvador went
from the most dangerous country in the
world to the safest country in the world
you've been down there a long time how
long have you been down there and how
dangerous was it and how has it become a
lot safer yeah so we've been down there
for 20 years and it was actually when we
first when we first bought our place
down there it was kind of on it was
seemed like it was getting better but
then after the housing crisis that's
that's when the gang problem really
started to proliferate and it was for
about 10 years it would go back and
forth between El Salvador and Honduras
as being the highest murder rate in the
world it was literally off the charts
worst than a lot of countries that were
you know officially at War not a title
you want no no it was yeah it was I mean
even in our community elante which is a
beautiful little Beach Community I mean
you would see bodies you know in the
street and it was wow it really felt
like you were in a war zone and it's
crazy how much that has changed now
people who come can't even imagine that
that's what it was
like now I spent a lot of time in Mexico
uh we're building the house in Mexico
right now so we're down there a lot and
you hear a lot about murders and death
in Mexico as well
but from my experience it's never really
like in the towns it's you know out of
town it's the the cartels they're
fighting so you the numbers are there
but you don't see it uh I'm curious I
mean you said you saw the body so that's
that's obviously a whole different story
was it but was it really kind of uh just
the gangs or did it really spill over
into just like regular people no it
really spilled over into the regular
people because the you know unlike
Mexico where it's it's mostly revolves
around drug trade uh there's in El
Salvador it was about extortion and so
it was these the little mom and pop
vendors that were being extorted and so
when they wouldn't pay they would just
execute them and so you would actually
see it you know in the street as you're
you know coming down the street you'd
see the the body there and the police
out there and so it really was something
that you couldn't get away from and it
for foreigners I mean we never really
felt in danger it was one of those
things that you were kind of off limits
as a foreigner because the repercussions
would be much stronger if they were to
kill a foreigner and so and and
foreigners were just seen as kind of
more Troublesome they're more likely to
fight back they're more likely to report
if they're trying to be extorted and so
it didn't affect them directly but you
know you saw it all around you and then
you know you're friends with the local
people in the community so you saw how
it affected them yeah how did it affect
them I mean it holds them back they're
able to plan long term I mean like what
were they kind of the% I mean they so
for one thing most of them their their
goal was to get out of the country that
was primary goal was to you know usually
to come to the US illegally was the the
the main thought the other thing you'd
see you often see people start up a
business and then they would shut it
down right away because they would come
to them and say Hey you have to pay this
much and a lot of times they would make
a rational decision you know is it can
they stay in business and pay this they
looked at it kind of as a tax and so
they would make that decision but a lot
of times the what the gangs wanted them
to pay it just wasn't sustainable and so
you would see these businesses come and
go and shut down real quickly you also
had these weird things businesses would
set up in you know closed neighborhoods
that were behind Gates um and they
wouldn't put up any signage they
wouldn't it was hard to even know you
had to have like an inside track to even
know where the business was because they
were always trying to stay one step
ahead of the gangs W which obviously
makes it very hard to run a profitable
business if you can't even put a sign
out FR yeah so then everything just kind
of continues to spiral downhill I mean
there's less businesses being started
there's less money to go around there's
less jobs people don't have as much
money to spend with other business is
and so it's was like this is spiral that
started oh it was a cycle of Destruction
because then you have the parents
leaving they go to the us so you have
the kids growing up without their
parents around which then become prey to
The Gangs because they don't have any
family there and so the gang provided
family for them so as that as the gangs
grew that made it less and less
profitable to run a business there which
made more people flee so it was kind of
like that's so most people just felt
like there was no future in El Salvador
and I heard that they even prayed on the
kids because of like the age difference
and like kids couldn't really be
prosecuted for Crime so then really
those kids became a big Target oh yeah
it was usually the the 12 13 year olds
that were the trigger men and for one
thing they couldn't be prosecuted as ads
it's another thing you know for them it
was kind of like a video game they don't
understand the repercussions of what
they're doing yeah and so they could get
these kids to to go in and you know just
blast people away without really
thinking about it you know as people get
older even Harden criminals they start
to you know think more about the
repercussions of what they're doing but
as a kid it just seemed a game to them
yeah now now um obviously you know with
with Bitcoin Beach you know that's where
kind of the
world a lot of the world started paying
attention but where did the shift where
do you see now looking backwards where
do you think that shift in momentum
started to go from this downward spiral
the most dangerous country in the world
like what was the spark do you
think I think it was was two things I
mean I think and I think they happened
in a synergistic way so I definitely
give credit to the president buelli he
came in and really was willing to shake
things up um the previous politicians it
had all been about getting in power so
you could drain as much money from the
state as possible and he really shifted
that where he wanted to see real change
come he even people within his own party
that were corrupt he went after them and
he really made people feel like for the
first time that there was potentially
going to be a future in El Salvador um
it happened to be that we had started
the Bitcoin project at that same time
and so they were seeing just the impact
that Bitcoin had has you know it's like
a mind virus it it shifts people's
perspective gives them uh lower time
preference makes them think longer term
and makes them hopeful about the future
and so we were seeing this project that
started as this very small thing in
elante grow and start you know affecting
the the communities around us we started
like a lifeguard program there was the
number of kids attending High School
like tripled people were going to
college it was all these different not
just saving in Bitcoin but all these
secondary and tertiary impacts of
Bitcoin and so while the government was
making these big changes on the national
level there these things happening in
elante and then they embraced saw what
was happening there and said hey let's
combine these forces and so I think it
was you know all of these things coming
together in kind of a magical way yeah
so where there's no hope the people
perish kind of a thing right so when the
president came in and showed that there
was going to be change happening then
people were hopeful for that and then as
well as the Bitcoin thing allowed people
to think more long term and that created
more hope and and also brings in
business and opportunity and they saw
tourists you know people cared about El
salador all of a sudden I mean it really
put El Salvador on the world map when he
made that decision to make it legal
tender
people that was I mean that that kind of
came about I want to get get to that but
I'm just curious because so you were in
the United States and you spent like
half your year in El Salvador and half
your year in the United States kind of a
thing we were there like 9 months in El
Salvador and 3 months we'd come back for
the summers in the US yeah so you were
kind of one in one out and I guess the
question that I'm thinking about or
asking is it seems like um it's sort of
back to the Hope in the air or the
directionality if you will because I try
to think about like the United States is
going in a horrible Direction and things
look very Bleak but at the same time if
I want to shift my perspective it's also
still probably the greatest place in the
world to
live um but but the hope is kind of gone
because we see where it's going so even
though it's still probably the best
place in the world to live it's heavy
because of where we're going where's El
Salvador is still one of the poorest
countries in the world it is right the
services are poor right Etc the roads
are bad Etc but the hope is different
the energy the direction is different
and so really even though the the
current conditions couldn't be more
opposite the directions they're going
are different and that creates a
different energy is that right no 100% I
think that's one thing people miss and
or underestimate is just the the impact
of the animal spirits in a population
like if the population thinks that
tomorrow is going to be better they're
more likely to save they're more likely
to invest in education they're more
likely to um defer current purchases
just for gratification to to more for
investment and to think longer term
where if you think things are going to
be worse in the future you're just going
to live for the day and so I think that
is really what makes a difference
between economies and and countries that
are on the upswing and those who are on
the downswing it's just that perspective
and that that hope that's exactly right
so then you're around people who also
have that and so to your point living
for today versus living long term and so
then it's just the whole culture gets
dragged down so um so you you were there
you've been there for a while and then
um one little sliver of Hope in that
country that you said kind of started at
the same time was then this project in
elante which has now been dub Bitcoin
Beach uh give us the origin of that like
what was the spark for that yeah so we
had you know that elante where where it
started that's where that's where I live
you know my wife and I were were working
um with Mion in in the country we moved
to El Salvador to to work with like a
broad base of different missionaries
there and we were based on the beach
mostly because I like to Surf and so I
wanted to be on the beach and you know
even in elante though there was this
kind of quaint tourist town it the the
gangs ran everything and so we had an
opportunity to start some youth programs
with some local leaders and really start
to try to change the the mindset of the
youth there and originally we were
wasn't involved with Bitcoin I was a
bitcoiner but I wasn't really thinking
that what this so this was probably
2016 that that happened that we started
the the youth programs there and then um
but you know and I was into Bitcoin but
I didn't really you know you think of
that as like a separate world yeah and
there were a lot of times where I was
thinking you know we were trying to
bring money down to to you know buy uh
vehicles for the project or things like
that and it was a headache using the
wire system I was like man if we could
just use Bitcoin it but I never
envisioned that that would actually be a
possibility and so uh in
2019 uh I was introduced to to somebody
that was in early in the Bitcoin space
that wanted to see Bitcoin circular
economies rise up and they heard about
the work we were doing in El Salvador
and they said hey maybe maybe there's a
connection there they were supporting
some other Ministries that we were
familiar with and so I thought hey I I
doubt it's going to you know it would
work but let's let's take a chance and
meet and so how this crazy meeting it
wasn't even the the donor it was his
representative because he wanted to
remain anonymous wow but heard the story
of hey there's somebody there that that
really sees the the Bitcoin that they
have from from early days as not just
the value in the you know the monetary
value but the way using Bitcoin as
currency as it was meant to be used will
actually impact society and so they kind
of challenged us to think of a way to
start a A system that could be began to
pull away from the Fiat system yeah wow
and they've remained Anonymous yeah wow
crazy still there's still a lot of
people that want to do good in this
world that's amazing so um they gave you
a Bitcoin you broke it down into the 100
million Satoshi that are available and
then what I mean you start giving it to
people to say hey I'm going to give it
to you but you need to spend it or you
talk to businesses about buying and
selling it or how did that then get
going yeah so initially we just um used
it in the the projects we were already
doing so we were you know we had been
paying the youth to to clean the river
and the beaches you know mostly just try
to keep them occupied it also gave us a
chance to to walk alongside them and
Mentor them and when I say us I mean
more like the local team members there
that were doing that I tried to remain
behind the scenes as much as possible I
just I'm very much a proponent that
things need to come from the local level
and from people that are in the
community and so we started using
Bitcoin you know to to compensate them
and it was originally we just thought it
would be like you now paying them and it
wouldn't make a difference if we were
paying them in dollars or Bitcoin but we
saw when we just started paying them in
Bitcoin it really changed the way they
started thinking about things because
they became curious about money like
what is money they thought about that
for the first time they they started
considering the cost of spending
something now versus holding it for
later because they understood that this
would most likely appreciate and value
over time and so they they for the first
time understood deferred gratification
and so we saw these things happen this
was on a very very small level when was
happing and then we had um podcaster
Peter McCormack came in and and spent
some time with us and then when he did
some things it it kind of you know
started to blow up we started to get a
number of Bitcoin tourists that that
started coming in and we were able to
expand the programs and then Co hit and
that really gave us the opportunity to
to expand it to the whole Community um
anybody who's worked in in any type of
development work understands that you
know a lot of well- meaning people come
in with projects and wind up doing a lot
more harm than good because you if you
just throw a bunch of money at people a
lot of times you disincentivize them to
work you you can distort the local
economy and actually put local
businesses out of business if you start
providing free services so it's it's
always a balance and so we wanted to be
very aware of that but when Co hit
everything was locked down people were
not allowed to work people were going
hungry and the the businesses were going
out of business because nobody had any
money so it gave us kind of the freedom
to do like a CommunityWide dispersement
of Bitcoin and we started sending
Bitcoin to the like a stimulus very much
like a stimulus it was and probably 90%
of the families were receiving you know
a a a I can't remember how many SATs it
was at the time that we were sending out
but you know it was enough to to buy
maybe half their basic food items for
the month and so it but it wasn't
distortive in any way because they
weren't allowed to work anyways and so
it really kept these families fed and it
also kept the businesses alive and it
made it very easy for us to onboard
businesses because it was the only
currency circulating in the community
and so they were coming rather than us
having to come to them and try to orange
pill them they were coming to us like
Hey how do we how do we get involved in
this and so it really helped supercharge
it and set the stage for you know for
what later you know became this became
aous within the community that the
majority of the businesses are accepting
Bitcoin so was this happening so this
you said like when buale came in and
started changing things was kind of
around the same time so around 2019 is
was when you started kind of the project
there and then right so that was kind of
coming up at the same time yeah so we we
started a little bit before he was
elected because I I remember he was on
the scene it was during it was campaign
season and I remember um actually did
when I did a podcast with Peter I
remember telling him like there's this
new president and I think that there's a
possibility that he could be the first
president to adopt Bitcoin is legal
tender like he has this sense of wanting
to embrace new things everybody thought
it was crazy at the time but I was like
no I see this happening and so it was
funny that that it actually came to be
we were we were definitely swinging for
the fences there how was it that that
became on his map like all of a sudden
was someone from his team alerted him he
wanted to come take a look at it or like
you know did did it just get so big and
it made so much change in the country
that he couldn't ignore it or how'd that
work I think a couple things there was a
Forbes article that came out talking
about the projects and it was probably
one of the first articles about El
Salvador was that was positive that
wasn't talking about the gangs and the
violence and it talking about this new
Innovative project that was happening in
El Salvador by a major publication so I
think that kind of put it on their radar
and then we we really tried to engage
the government from early stages because
we didn't want them to hear rumors like
oh Bitcoin money laundering drug you
know all the negative connotations that
that came with Bitcoin especially in in
the earlier days and so we would be very
open with them we were working with the
ministry of Tourism to promote tourism
through Bitcoin we also established the
country's first lifeguard program they
didn't have any lifeguard program in the
country and there would be probably
about 300 people that would drown each
year you know some of them tourists but
but most of them locals yeah and so we
um brought in a team to to do the full I
think it was 120 hour course with the
international life saving Foundation to
get internationally certified and then
the whole all the beaches and the
surrounding region around elante we paid
these lifeguards I think there was 90
that went through the training we were
paying them in Bitcoin to patrol these
beaches literally saving you know dozens
of lives um just in that region and so I
think they saw like the impact of that
and then we were able to have a meeting
with uh the minister of the economy um
miles Su do you know miles sud yeah so
miles was happened to be in town and so
we got this meeting and and you know we
we thought it' be a brief meeting and
she came in with all her for AIDS and we
sat down for three hours and just really
tried to show how uh adopting Bitcoin
could change the whole narrative about
El Salvador like it was really from our
point of view the only way that they
could flip the the script about El
Salvador from people thinking of it as
as gangs and violence to thinking of it
as this Innovative country that was
Leading The Way with Way Forward and so
and of course we we knew that buelli was
somebody who had you know International
Ambitions he he wants to leave a legacy
I think he wants to go down in the
history books and so we were like hey
this is the way he can go down in the
history books like there's coming from a
small country like El Salvador it's very
hard to to spark worldwide change but if
he is the first one to adopt Bitcoin as
legal tender like nobody else will have
that claim he will be in the history
books and so we kept kind of pushing
from that angle
how much of that impacted it I don't
know maybe there was other things so
it's it's hard to tell but it was it was
definitely on our radar we saw we we
never want to rely on government but
it's much easier if the government is is
going in the same direction of you than
trying to fight you on things yeah you
you know that's uh in in this kind of
space specifically but even just overall
you have that balance of like I don't
want really want to be in politics uh
but if we're called to be good citizens
then that means we are are involved yeah
and so Jordan Peterson says that if you
ABD toate your power then a tyrant is
going to take it every time so it's like
most of us just want to focus on our
family and our business and whatever but
if if we don't take that responsibility
then we get what we get kind of a thing
um so if we're going to you know if
anyone's going to run it hopefully it's
good representatives of that now you
started buying in that started in 2019
so that was sort of coming out of the
bare Market we kind of had this run up
but then in 2020 the price of Bitcoin
the US dollar value of Bitcoin crashed
really heavy um so I'm curious what it
was like for 2019 into 2020 cuz you said
people started thinking about long-term
preference right they probably saw the
value evation of Bitcoin going up the
purchasing power of Bitcoin going up so
they started thinking about saving but
then it crashed in 2020 and and very
dramatically so I'm curious what that
was like and then it started running
back up again um and then it crashed
again so how's the ups and downs been
when you're trying to use it to like
plan your daily food or weekly food kind
of a thing yeah so I think uh you know
they these the people in El Salvador
kind of come into it the same way most
of us have come into it you have to go
through at least one cycle before you
kind of realize you have to get punched
in the face once exactly so you know
when when the first crashes were were
happening you know especially like we
had that big drop off when when covid
was starting um yeah people were
freaking out because we had a lot of
stores that that had been accepting it
and you know they're on you know calling
us at 2: a.m. like what in the world's
happening so we had to just kind of
handh them them knowledge hey this is
what's happened in the past were even in
the early days where we would personally
sometimes like reimburse them for for
their losses so wow you know you just
felt a sense of responsibility and and
it was you know we're not talking about
crazy huge amounts for them it was
life-changing amounts you know for for
us it wasn't you know something that
that was going to be that impactful so
we would walk with them in that but then
also try to educate them and like hey
this is the history of it this is how
well this is normal for Bitcoin but over
the long term this is the direction that
that it moves in so if there's something
that you need to pay next week then yeah
maybe it's better for you to hold that
in dollars to be able to make that
payment but if this is something
longterm it's going to be much more
beneficial for you saving in this but
the other aspect of it is is rather is
the Bitcoin Network kind of separating
that from Bitcoin the the currency the
network for them provided them this
freedom to do electronic payments to you
know have uh basically a bank account on
their phone all these things that they
hadn't had before so there was even with
the volatility the the benefits that it
brought of actually being connected to a
worldwide
Network for a lot of people made it made
it worth it and you know they were very
Innovative they learned to ride the the
waves we would see when uh when strike
came in uh a lot of before that people
were using the Bitcoin Beach wallet when
strike came in they would use the both
wallets and they would they would
basically use them as like a trading
vehicle when they wanted to move the
dollars they would move it into their
strike wallet at that time strike only
you could only hold it as dollars you
couldn't hold it as Bitcoin and then
they would move it back and forth and so
you know they would figure out the ways
to kind of mitigate the uh the risk and
but it's then we have the challenge on
the other side when you have the upswing
people start to get that speculative
fever and they're telling us oh yeah I'm
going to sell my house and to buy
Bitcoin or you know I'm I'm going to
borrow money to buy and so then we're on
the other side like hey no like this is
super volatile you could get wiped out
like just as longterm just steadily
accumulate use it in your daily life as
currency try to keep pulling back and
removing yourself from the Fiat system
but don't become a Speculator
yeah as I mentioned earlier I'm building
a house down in Mexico and I'm really
seeing it firsthand because like the
building materials some are coming from
America some are coming from Europe some
are like so like we're getting invoices
but the invo
are shifting all the time from the time
I get the invoice time I pay because the
because the um exchange rates are
constantly moving around and it's making
me realize for the first time how much
everyone is forced to be a Speculator
you know being on a dollar standard I
don't really realize this but now like
I'm buying stuff in euros and stuff in
dollars and stuff in pesos and like
trying to manage that has been very
difficult and more importantly for them
I see the people in Mexico the people
that are giving the invoices and
importing like it's like almost it's
it's a nightmare for them and and
forcing them to be a Speculator well I'm
how hard has it been just trying to get
them paid too to get money down there
yeah luckily that hasn't been too bad uh
most of them have American bank accounts
I can wire into so my general contractor
has an American bank account uh my main
like appliance guy which was a lot of
money you know they have American bank
so that that's been a little bit easier
um but certainly moving money out of the
country is is difficult um one thing
that U most people don't realize is that
uh there's you know approximately a
billion billion and a half adults in the
world that don't have access to bank in
a lot of them don't have access to
banking because they don't have
permission to join so they don't have
the right documentation or whatever it
is or a sanctioned country um when I
came down to um Bitcoin Beach and uh
tried to get a little program off the
ground that unfortunately didn't work
but um I realized for the first time
that a lot of people in El salador
didn't have access to banking because
they didn't have enough money yeah so
they didn't have enough money to pay the
monthly fee and then Merchants weren't
able to get point of sale or or Merchant
accounts CU they didn't have enough
transactions so like there maybe they
were owed to be in the system but they
couldn't afford it but but that goes
back to the the problems with kyc and
AML they've put this high price on
bringing people into the banking system
so we've locked literally billions of
people out of the banking system because
it just will never be profitable to bank
them it's not that they don't have the
documentation but it it's expensive for
the banks to do all these compliance
procedure so it really makes these
people unbankable yeah and then if they
can't get into the financial system then
they can't get into the world you know I
talk about the invention of the
smartphone it's like now we could learn
anything meet anybody do anything and
like you have kids now that have an
Instagram account could make
$100,000 but only if they can get into
the banking system and so Bitcoin was
able to kind of give that to them yeah
what about uh the remittance thing so I
think about 30% of uh El Salvador's GDP
comes for remittances and so if I want
to send money down there that's very
inconvenient for me Western Union have
to get cash go stand in line the whole
thing but then how do they get it down
in El Salvador or how were they yeah so
they you know they have offices there
that they would go to receive it usually
they'd have to go in person to to pick
it up you know there's fees involved
it's a lot of them don't yeah they don't
have their own vehicles and so they're
riding the bus it's it's definitely very
inconvenient in in a lot of different
ways um but you know that's why there's
so much promise with with Bitcoin yeah
yeah but it's it's one thing you find
with people is people are creatures of
habit and so just because something's
better doesn't mean people are going to
immediately move to it it takes there's
usually a process of them discovering
that especially something very personal
like money people like no I know how to
do this and even though it costs me this
I'm going so they have to kind of be you
know aided along the way and we're
seeing that gradually happen as people
kind of gradually shift to that the
other great thing that we've seen and
and this is something that people people
underestimate and that people that
aren't even using Bitcoin are are
benefiting from El Salvador's adoption
of Bitcoin is Western Union money gram
all these companies see the threat and
so they've all pushed their fees way
down I'd say about they've cut them
probably 50% and they've made the
experience better because now they
realize they're having to compete with
somebody being able to send you know
from their phone to somebody else's
phone and not have any intermediary so
it's really forced them to step up their
game and so now you have literally you
know million plus Salvadorans and and
that are benefiting from Bitcoin that
aren't even using Bitcoin but they're
benefiting from the competition that the
Bitcoin the whole economy is benefiting
I mean now there's more money in the
economy overall right so that's a big
deal now you we talked about not
everyone has access to banking a lot of
people can't afford it because the
expense of kyc Etc um and so one thing I
think about you know in regards to
bitcoin adoption you know from a US
Centric lens move some of your savings
in there we say you know don't invest
what you afford to lose if you can't you
know lock it up for a couple years Etc
but people down there don't even have
money to pay for a checking account so I
think about in these developing
countries and I know you you know have
ties down in Peru and other countries
like that so where people are living on
like five bucks a day like they're not
really saving so I think sometimes like
how does Bitcoin help people that aren't
saving and so you mentioned you know
some people are trying to be speculators
but if there's people that are so poor
they don't really have long-term savings
they can't think about the long-term
value of Bitcoin I mean is it really
even helping them I mean directly as
opposed to indirectly or yeah you would
be surprised and I and I went into this
thinking that same thing like these
people make so little there's no way
that they'd be able to save but at the
same time you look around and there's
you know McDonald's everywhere and
cocacola everywhere and all these
consumer goods that these people are
buying and so even though they're not
making that much money they are making
choices every day where they could
choose to save but it's it for a lot of
it seemed pointless and so buying that
coke was like the you know reward for a
very hard day but when they switch over
to a Bitcoin standard they they really
start realizing the cost of buying that
Coca-Cola because those SATs that
they're going to spend on that are going
to be worth a lot more in the future and
so we saw people that I would have told
you there's no way we can expect them to
save because their salary is too low
started saving and accumulated money and
you would you know see on their phone
you're like what you got like a month's
salary in
like on your phone and before you
usually had your money spent before you
even received it and they're like yeah
I'm saving up for to replace my roof or
to get my teeth fixed and so we've seen
that really
the the thought that a lot of us have
that these people aren't capable of
saving is is untrue like they are
capable they the incentives just have to
be aligned yeah that's good now uh here
we are about four years or so into this
experiment um
there's a lot you know mainstream media
has to your point uh the first time was
talking positively about it we've seen a
lot of pieces come out talk about
negative about it so we've heard both
both back and forth um some reports come
back and say that uh Bitcoin isn't
really being used there there's really
nowhere to spend it it's not as as as
proliferated as people would think it
would be um so we hear both sides of the
story where have we come in four years
like where is it at right now so it's
much further along than I ever would
have dreamed you can you know
it's it just and it really depends on
where your what your expectations are of
my expectation is these things are
decade long Transformations that's it's
not going to happen overnight but
there's many people living in El
Salvador that that only live on bitcoin
they you can you know the major
supermarkets take Bitcoin the you know
we've bought vehicles from dealership
with Bitcoin and not just in Bitcoin
Beach no not just in Bitcoin Beach it's
now if you want to be able to go to any
store you want and expect to use Bitcoin
that's not going to be realistic but you
there's a network of stores like I said
the main supermarkets their version of
Costco accepts Bitcoin and their
lightning payments now so it's super
easy yeah so you know like when we were
buying Vehicles we chose to buy from a
dealership that accepted Bitcoin that we
weren't you know we maybe would have
bought a different vehicle if if the
other dealerships were accepting Bitcoin
but we bought Mahindra pickup trucks
because that was the dealership we
wanted to support the dealership that
was accepting so you do have to make
some tradeoffs if you want to live on a
Bitcoin standard so so for people that
think that like you can use it
everywhere yeah definitely not but the
rate at which it's growing is much
faster and the adoptions much faster
than when credit cards were introduced
to El salador or even into the US you
look at credit cards when they were
introduced how long it took before they
were really taken everywhere I mean it
took decades before it became common for
you to be able to use a credit card at
you know even like a fast food
restaurant or something like that so I
think it just you got have to have
realistic expectations but I think 5
years from now people will be like oh
yeah of course it was obvious all the
time once they adopted it would be you
know be able to use everywhere yeah I
think as the Bill Gates quote that
people overestimate what they can do in
a year and underestimate what can be
done in a decade right and so I say that
all the time with Bitcoin you just you
just expect way too much too soon and
especially to the point you made earlier
about money money is a whole different
thing it's one thing to switch over to a
new social media account it's a whole
different thing to switch over your
money so um from that perspective I see
that now but the other thing I just want
to H real quick was the role El Salvador
has played in in pushing the the tools
and the resources forward because when
Els Salvador made this adoption there
wasn't that many great wallets out there
or point of sale or or even the way to
spend Bitcoin really didn't work that
well and so when El Salvador moved in
that direction all these companies came
in and they continued to develop better
products and it makes it much more easy
to use Bitcoin where now if I spend
Bitcoin a lot of these places it happens
faster than if I try to use my credit
credit card where initially you know
they were still doing things on chain so
you'd be sitting there in the
supermarket waiting for your
confirmation and hoping it made it in
the next block so we're seeing that um
you know Salvador be kind of a
laboratory I think for the world to get
Bitcoin to the usability that it's going
to need to to jump and become the the
uous currency that's used around the
world now again so here we are four
years later um and and there was two
Sparks right so we had B and then we had
Bitcoin and maybe they helped each other
right the Synergy between that um uh
it's gone from the most dangerous
country in the world I guess now to the
safest country in the world which is
safest in the in the Americas in the
Americas okay so not like Luxembourg for
example but in the Americas okay um so
that's a big shift um bu's done a lot
I've seen him announcing like really
trying to recruit people like giving
passports out to philosophers and
thought leaders things like that I've
heard a lot of uh investment capital is
flowing in businesses are flowing in
um I think around elante around Bitcoin
beach the real estate has gone crazy
through the roof uh how much have you
really seen that I mean is that really
noticeable is that a big deal um or is
it just still that hope in the air no
it's definitely a big deal I mean the
you know 10 years ago the the
unemployment was off the charts it was
very hard for people to find work now
the biggest complaint I hear from people
as like we can't find any construction
workers we can't find any restaurant
workers like people are moving their
their way up the the food chain to jobs
that that pay more which those are great
problems to have and so you see
construction booming everywhere I mean
it's it seems like every other lot is a
construction site now and is that just
concentrated in that area though or not
just not just you know elante of course
there's a ton of stuff happening there
and and the prices have gone gone off
the charts but even the rest of you know
that pushes people out as it becomes too
expensive there people move you know up
the coast or down the coast the capital
city is booming now you see all these
countries or these companies kind of
pouring in they're looking for they're
driving the the price of talent up
because there's there's limited talent
in the country and so the education
system now is needing to catch up and to
produce the type of workers that all
these companies are looking for and so
it's it it can be a little
um it can be a little halfhazard at
times like you know companies come in
and they're like oh we can't find the
workers we need and then they but they
these things tend to solve them eles
then the schools step in and start
producing the workers that they need and
so it's it's a messy process but you see
the country just just continuing to to
build up and it's such a small country
it's a tiny country so it's kind of like
a very thinly traded stock a thinly
traded stock moves a really fast even
like Bitcoin when it was small um and so
so El Salvador is a very small country
and so uh you can really swing the
balance of employment or or things like
that pretty quickly um now Mike one
thing one thing that I think can talk
about quite often is that
I feel like this worldview and
unfortunately I see it in the Bitcoin
community and I see it across the world
overall in the United States I should
say um that there's not really this
Spirit of like helping other people and
and when I say that not like holding a
door open for people but like donating
money or time to go help other people
and I feel that that sets people's
worldview so for example I was on a
plane with somebody not that long ago
and you know we having this debate we're
um sitting next to each other and and uh
he telling me that you know he thinks
that the government should continue to
tax people so they continue to fund all
these programs and I'm saying we don't
need the government to take care of
those people we take people take care of
these people and he didn't see that and
then I just asked him this question and
it was kind of personal question I said
you don't have to answer this question
but I'm just curious how much of your
money we're in first class so he's he's
a good he's doing good business how much
of your money do you donate to good
causes or people and he's I said you
don't have to tell me that but he's like
none and I was like do you think that
could change your worldview right like
and so like we're out there helping
you're you were down there helping even
before Bitcoin I'm curious your opinion
on that and and people's worldview and
and and being reflective of their
actions no I think and and you see this
not to make it too political but you do
see it a lot of times it is politically
aligned like people that are more on the
left they view that as the the
government should be taking care of
people and there's been lots of studies
they tend to give much less less to
charity and to be less generous and to
do less stuff on their own where people
that are tend to be more on the right or
more libertarian view it is like hey
this is my responsibility not the
government's and I'm going to do it much
more efficiently and so I'm going to
give of my own time and my own money and
so I I think that for a lot of people
it's they feel like they can kind of
check that box just by voting for
somebody that says they want to give
money to the poor like they can get it
off their their conscience like okay
I've done my deed by voting for the
person that's going to increase taxes of
course they hope it's not on them then
they're going to billion they're going
to find ways to get around it and so
even even the the billionaires that you
hear that like oh no we should raise
taxes they're still employing an army of
people to make sure they're not
subjected to those increases in taxes
and so I think that um yeah I think that
that's something that's really important
and I think that's something we need to
speak openly about that like hey if you
really care for somebody
you should be the one that's out there
doing it making those sacrifices and I
remember even even when it comes to
immigration thing you see people that
are that are talking about like hey we
need to help the immigrants we need it's
like well how many people do you have in
your home right what have you done
personally how are you becoming involved
like the government should do that like
yeah but what about um you know a
nonprofit that I was working with our
slogan was happy people help others and
so I think any parent recognizes that
that some really the greatest joy you
can have is by giving other people joy
and so um maybe there's sort of the
chicken or the egg almost in a sense
where like maybe if they went and helped
other people then they would get the joy
and realize wow that was actually better
and when you rely on the state you short
circuit that whole thing right because
like if I help you I feel really good
about that but you also feel really good
like wow this guy helped me that's
amazing so now both of us get the
benefit of that but if the government
steals my money from me I'm angry and
they give it to you and now you feel
entitled Y and so then you take this
experience that both people could
benefit from and now both people are
angry
about 100% I mean you you fit the the
nail on the head I mean that is exactly
the the problem that we face now and you
take you take that that connection that
human connection away where when people
are receiving money from the government
like you said they become entitled and
they become embittered like wait I
should be getting more this isn't fair
but but when they see that connection
that somebody's actually sacrificing
their hard work to help them it becomes
more real and it they see that they have
to have a personal responsibility to to
respond to that and to try to improve
themselves and so that's what I really
think that that we need to get back to
and that's why I'm so hopeful about the
people in the Bitcoin space as their
resources increase that they can have a
broader impact and go out and I think we
need to challenge people because the the
one issue I see and I see with a lot of
bitcoiners and they have this plan that
down the road in 20 years when their
bitcoin's worth you know $20 million a
coin or something then they're going to
do something it's like no you're missing
all this time in between think of all
the lives that you can impact you can't
go back in time and change those
people's lives and so I think regardless
of the price of Bitcoin we should be
using our personal resources right now
yeah whatever you have your time your
effort your energy your focus you know
whatever it is I mean we all have
something to give even if it's not money
uh we've all been given gifts um and uh
so we'll just announce it here um you
know I tried to come down and help the
community a couple years ago and it fell
through unfortunately uh but I am
planning a trip to go down there and do
some serving opportunities just directly
into the community um we'll bring a a
small amount of people with us if you're
interested in getting down to the
Community Learning about that learning
about what's going on bitcoin but more
importantly giving back to the community
um we'll put a link down in the
description down below if you want to
fill out that form it's going to be a
small group uh we'll be doing trips down
there to El Salvador if you want to come
hang out with us uh let me know in there
um but uh you know again I I mentioned
earlier I know you worked you know some
stuff in Peru and you and I think
there's Argentina and you're starting to
see this pop up all over the place so
maybe just kind of wrap this up but
maybe just
uh what would your advice be to people
who are inspired by this and would like
to go affect change I'd say you really
got to show up and put some some boots
on the ground and understand you know a
lot of people think they you know
understand the situation but you got got
to really be there and and see it and
really feel it and then then you'll
understand how you can best use your
resources whether those or financial
resources or skills you have or or
relationships a lot of times just being
able to connect people yeah and so
that's why I always tell people like
come down to El Salvador see what's
happening there judge for yourself and
see what part you can play yeah and
where can they follow along uh Bitcoin
Beach on Twitter what what what where
can they see what's going on and kind of
check that out yeah follow us on Bitcoin
Beach on Twitter uh we also have a
podcast YouTube uh live from Bitcoin
Beach we do uh you know we working
interviewing different bitcoiners that
are coming through El Salvador but also
once a week we do a Twitter spaces that
we WE Post there that um kind of focuses
and highlights one of these circular
Bitcoin economies that we're working
with around the world so uh this uh you
know whether it's Bitcoin acasi in South
Africa or last week we were talking with
the folks in Uganda that are working
with a an orphanage there and start
starting a circular Bitcoin economy
there we try to highlight these
different things so that's another way
people can become connected with
projects they can become involved with
great all right well that we'll Sig it
off thanks so much Mike thanks Mark
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