The Man Jesus Christ Created the World
Summary
TLDRIn this profound dialogue, the conversation centers on the significance of the Incarnation in Christian theology, particularly its role in theosis and logos theology. The discussion explores the transformative impact of Jesus Christ's life, death, and resurrection, emphasizing the idea that the Incarnation is not just a pragmatic truth but a reality that unites Heaven and Earth. It delves into the narrative of Jesus as the culmination of divine participation, where the divine logos empties itself into humanity, offering a path for humans to become more like God. The cross is highlighted as a pivotal point of convergence, revealing deep mysteries of creation and the essence of reality itself, with the story of Jesus being a profound and multifaceted narrative that continually offers new insights.
Takeaways
- 😢 The emotional impact of discussing the Incarnation with Jordan Peterson, highlighting the profound significance of the concept for understanding the nature of God and humanity.
- 🛑 The Incarnation as a pivotal point in Logos Theology, suggesting that the divine became human to enable humanity to participate in the divine.
- 🕊️ The idea that the story of Jesus, particularly the crucifixion, encapsulates the convergence of heaven and earth, and the divine and human realms.
- 🌐 The challenge of conveying the reality of the Incarnation to secular audiences, emphasizing the need for a gradual introduction to the concept.
- 🔑 The Incarnation as a solution to the problem of whether human intelligence is a projection of divine intelligence or a characteristic of humans alone.
- 🌟 The role of Jesus Christ in creation, with the assertion that his crucifixion was a moment of ongoing creation, according to Orthodox theology.
- 🔍 The importance of the 'eye of the heart' as a spiritual space for encountering God, paralleled by the structure of the cosmos that points towards this convergence.
- 🎯 The narrative of Jesus as the ultimate limit story, one that is so extreme in its irony and symbolism that it could not be fabricated.
- 🛍️ The concept of sacrifice and its culmination in the cross, representing the ultimate self-emptying act of love and the revelation of the world's true workings.
- 🏆 The elevation of the lowly in Christ's ministry, reflecting the divine principle of humility and the reversal of worldly values.
- 🌊 The theological concept of humility as a source of power, with the ocean as a metaphor for God's self-emptying to receive all things back to Himself.
Q & A
What was the emotional impact of the discussion about the Incarnation on Jordan Peterson?
-The discussion about the Incarnation brought Jordan Peterson to tears, as it seemed to be the missing piece that made all of his philosophical musings come together, providing a profound sense of coherence and meaning.
What is the significance of the Incarnation in Christian theology according to the transcript?
-The Incarnation is the central tenet of Christian theology, signifying the belief that God became man in the person of Jesus Christ. It is seen as the recapitulation of everything into the participation of God, offering a tangible reality to the divine-human relationship.
How does the speaker suggest we approach secular people with the concept of the Incarnation?
-The speaker suggests a gradual approach, starting with the story of Jesus, which is seen as the summit of the world where heaven and earth meet, and slowly leading them to understand the profound implications of the Incarnation.
What is meant by 'theosis' in the context of the discussion?
-Theosis refers to the process of becoming more like God, participating in God's uncreated energies of love, compassion, truth, and beauty. It is the divine invitation for humanity to partake in the divine nature by grace.
How does the speaker describe the role of intelligence in the Incarnation?
-The speaker suggests that intelligence, which is a human characteristic, is not a barrier but a bridge to understanding the divine. The Incarnation solves the problem of whether gods are projections of human intelligence by showing that the divine actually uses human intelligence to manifest in the world.
What is the 'eye of the heart' mentioned in the transcript?
-The 'eye of the heart' is a spiritual concept referring to the innermost part of a person where they can encounter God. It is the point within the individual where divine revelation and personal transformation occur.
What is the importance of the Cross in the narrative of Jesus Christ?
-The Cross is the central event in the story of Jesus Christ, symbolizing the ultimate sacrifice and the culmination of God's love for humanity. It is seen as the point where all divine and human realities converge, revealing the deep mysteries of creation and redemption.
How does the speaker relate the story of Jesus to the concept of irony?
-The speaker discusses the irony of Jesus being crucified as the 'King of the Jews' while being rejected and humiliated by the very people he came to save. This irony is seen as a profound revelation of the divine plan, where the lowest point becomes the highest in terms of spiritual significance.
What is the 'limit story' mentioned by the speaker?
-The 'limit story' refers to the narrative of Christ's life, death, and resurrection, which is seen as the ultimate story that pushes the boundaries of human understanding and categorization. It is a story that cannot be fully comprehended or replicated.
How does the speaker connect the story of Jesus to the idea of humility?
-The speaker connects the story of Jesus to humility by highlighting how God, in the person of Jesus, humbled himself to the lowest point to elevate the lowly and to draw all things back to himself. This act of self-emptying is seen as the epitome of divine love and the essence of the Christian understanding of humility.
What is the theological significance of the ocean being the lowest and most powerful body of water?
-The theological significance is that, like the ocean, God's humility allows all things to flow back to him. It illustrates the Christian belief that God's self-emptying love is the source of his power and the means by which all creation is drawn to him.
Outlines
😇 The Significance of the Incarnation in Logos Theology
This paragraph discusses a deep conversation about the Incarnation, the belief that God became man in Jesus Christ. It emphasizes the difficulty of conveying this concept to secular people and the importance of the story of Jesus as the culmination of divine and earthly union. The speaker highlights the transformative power of the Incarnation, suggesting that it allows humans to participate in the divine through God's uncreated energies, leading to theosis, or becoming more like God. The paragraph also touches on the role of Jesus' crucifixion as a pivotal moment in the narrative, revealing the cosmos's interconnectedness and the divine plan.
😢 The Cross: A Symbol of Sacrifice and Divine Reality
The second paragraph delves into the symbolism and significance of the cross in Christian theology. It portrays the crucifixion of Jesus as an unexpected and profound event that encapsulates the essence of reality's self-emptying nature. The speaker reflects on the irony and layered meanings behind Jesus' death, suggesting that it represents both the culmination and the resolution of sacrificial rituals. The paragraph also explores the idea that the cross reveals a deep mystery about the origin of creation, with the story of Jesus being a narrative that continually offers new insights and interpretations, challenging traditional categories and understanding.
😳 The Overwhelming Vision of Divine Reality
In the final paragraph, the narrative focuses on the overwhelming nature of divine reality as perceived through the story of Adam in the Garden of Eden. It suggests that Adam, upon partaking of the knowledge of Good and Evil, was confronted with the vision of the cross and Christ's crucifixion, which was too intense for him to comprehend. The paragraph implies that this vision represents a profound revelation about the nature of God's interaction with humanity and the world, causing Adam to react with fear and confusion. This encounter is presented as a pivotal moment that underscores the intensity and complexity of divine truth.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Incarnation
💡Logos
💡Theosis
💡Crucifixion
💡Divine Love
💡Participation
💡Semiotics
💡Metaphysics
💡Humility
💡Sacrifice
💡Limit Story
Highlights
The conversation delves into the deep emotional impact of discussing the Incarnation with Jordan Peterson.
Incarnation is described as the key to understanding the participatory nature of God and the world.
The Incarnation is portrayed as the summit of the world, where heaven and earth meet.
The challenge of conveying the reality of the Incarnation to secular people is discussed.
The story of Jesus is highlighted as a powerful tool for illustrating the concept of the Incarnation.
The importance of the Incarnation in logos theology and theosis is emphasized.
Engagement with God's uncreated energies is presented as a transformative opportunity for humanity.
The Incarnation is seen as solving metaphysical questions about the nature of intelligence and the human mind.
The role of humans as intermediaries between the invisible principles and the world is explored.
The significance of the eye of the heart as a space for encountering God is mentioned.
The structure of the cosmos is likened to the structure of the human heart, pointing towards unity.
The figure of Jesus Christ is identified as the point where all cosmic and theological elements converge.
The cross is discussed as a symbol of the culmination of divine and human realities.
The paradoxical nature of the cross, embodying both humiliation and divine revelation, is highlighted.
The theological significance of humility and the role of Christ in elevating the lowly is discussed.
The story of Jesus is described as a narrative that defies conventional storytelling and challenges categories.
The cross is presented as revealing a deep mystery about the origin of creation.
Timothy Patitsas' image of Adam seeing the cross in the Tree of Life is cited as a powerful theological insight.
The conversation concludes with reflections on the profound impact of the Incarnation and the cross on understanding God's relationship with humanity.
Transcripts
you know one of the conversations I saw
you had with uh with Jordan Peterson
after
um you know some of the experiences he
had
um uh medical problems that you had a
conversation with him and he came to
tears thinking about again this
participatory and like this logo stuff
which it seems like he has his finger on
most of it but when it comes to it
literally incarnating that it was an
actual historical person that God became
a man and it's not some pragmatic truth
we live by but it's a reality
I remember you telling him that and it
brought him to tears because it's the
only thing that makes all of what he's
talking about come back together because
that's what the Incarnation is it's the
recapitulation of everything back into
the participation of God yeah and I mean
that's the hardest thing it's like it's
the hardest sell for for secular people
because
people are so ruined like we're so
ruined you know and there's a way like
the way that I tend to try to do that is
I tend to go slowly and try to point
show people the story of Jesus because
it's
you know we can say that like Jesus the
Incarnation is the is the summit of the
world right it's the place where Heaven
and Earth meet it's the place where the
Divine logos you know empties himself
into in all these terms they sound so
weird but it's it's really there in the
story right Jesus's story is a crazy
story where everything collapses and
everything is United and everything is
you know and it and it's uh it's an
amazing thing it just you just kind of
especially for secular people you just
kind of have to bring them in slowly
because the sort of the crucifixion will
just shatter you once you start to see
it like for what's actually going on in
that story it's a it's a crushing story
every it's like everything is there like
the whole Cosmos is in that story right
no I couldn't agree more
um can we speak a little bit more than
about
um the Incarnation
um and why this is so essential for this
logos Theology and for what we were
talking about theosis because we're
called to participate hate in God and by
the grace of God in the engagement with
his uncreated energies if we as created
entities which are limited can engage
with these uncreated energies of logic
and reason and love and mercy and
compassion and truth and beauty and
honor and Glory we can become more and
more like God this is the gift of God's
Incarnation this is the opportunity that
we're all called to
um you know and then the cross again we
could get into the semiotics of it being
this point in which this all this stuff
fully comes back together uh could you
speak a little bit to the importance of
the Incarnation regards to all this
logos theology
I mean the Incarnation is the key
and it's a key it really is a key it's a
key in terms of story it's a key in
terms of understanding because one of
the things for example like even if you
take Union Union ideas right there's a
sense in which we have this problem
which is that
you know intelligence seems to be the
seems to be the characteristics of
humans and so even in the old world they
would ask questions sometimes like are
the gods do they exist are there project
are there a projection of us like a
projection of our own psychic our
psychic uh thoughts and our own
structures of mind you know and so
there's actually a legitimate concern
about that a legitimate question but
that gets solved in the Incarnation
because it's it's in some ways you could
say
it's this is a crazy thing but it's
totally Orthodox by the way is to say
that the man Jesus Christ created the
world yes
and like say maxman says crazy things he
says you know when Christ was on the
cross he was creating the world
and so it's like yeah it's like that
that solves people don't realize just
how many problems that solves even in
terms of metaphysics and in terms of
understanding you know the nature of the
world and how we don't have to deny
the fact that intelligent categories uh
mirror through the my the human mind
it's actually not a problem it's
actually a role it's actually what we're
there for that's what God created us is
to be that intermediary that
intermediary space between the invisible
principles and the the indefinite aspect
of of the world and so but that
culminates right so it's like the whole
structure is like the structure that
points and points and points and so just
like in you let's say there's a there's
that noetic aspect
you know where it all comes together and
you have that space the eye of the heart
where you can encounter God all the
cosmos also has that same structure it's
like it points it points it points right
and then when when the figure of Jesus
Christ appears it's like that's it
that's the point that's that point where
it all comes together and it's
objectively it's objectively real in the
story you can see why it's real in the
in the way that Jesus interacts with
people what he's doing all the different
prophecies that he's kind of bringing
together towards the cross
uh but then it's the surprise man the
surprise of the Cross like what who
could have expected that right who could
and then but when it happens and you
realize that this is it like this is the
only way that it can be real and it's
what it has to do with what we talked
about in terms of the logi like reality
can only be fully real if it's
constantly emptying itself
if it's constantly empty and emptying
itself both in some ways like towards
God but then also even higher identities
always have to kind of empty themselves
to give themselves to the lower
participation right because you know you
can't have the pure cup you only have a
mitigated version of that and so the cup
gives itself right it kind of gives
itself towards its participation with
his particulars right like oh that's
what it is that's what this whole
sacrifice thing from the beginning has
been like these these people kind of
trying to figure out like why do we you
know we're sacrificing these animals
we're sacrificing people like what are
we doing you know what is this thing
we're doing
and the cross just resolved it all it's
like yeah that's actually how the world
works right the cross the cross ends
that that process in a sort of uh
profane way and brings it all back
together in a single person which
recapitulates that as as you and uh
Jordan Peterson talked about the limit
Story I mean the the story of Christ
which isn't a story it's a reality but
it's you couldn't write something that
is more to the limit of categories that
you can't you just cannot I I like I
would dare anybody to do it you could
only maybe do something similar in the
wake of the story of Jesus but right
think about think just about what's
going on like do you think about the
cross like think about
here's Jesus
innocent crucified as a criminal
on the cross with the sign above his
head that says he's the king that which
is ironic
but is not ironic ultimately it's like
this weird thing where it's like it's
irony and it's a double irony and a like
a triple irony it's as if the whole
world is being like turned in this
tumbler where you know you it all just
collapses right King of the Jews but the
Jews then are killing him for claiming
that he's or fulfilling the Prophecies
of the Old Testament and so this whole
thing and then being humiliated he's God
incarnate but then he's naked in front
of his mother I mean the whole thing is
you you literally could not write
something that was more limit in every
Dimension and I love what you're talking
about the sort of
um dissension on high to the lowly
places and that's what the logi is doing
and that's why Christ was concerned with
the prostitutes with the poor with the
sick with with the people the lowest
people of society because and that's why
the the last will be first
um you know the lowly will be elevated
this is the reality of God this is you
know I had father turbo on and he was
talking about we did a whole stream on
the Theology of humility and one of the
biggest takeaways I had on that he says
he said why why is the ocean the most
powerful body of water it's because it's
the lowest body of water yeah all other
bodies of water flow back into the ocean
that's what God is God had to Humble
himself as the Lola so that everything
can return back to him and it's like wow
that makes so much sense yeah it's it's
a no it's a
yeah the story of Jesus is just it's
just crazy it's a crazy story you know
you can never get to the end of it every
time I I go back every posca I just
especially during this uh some of the
service like especially the services of
lamentation those Services they did just
Crush you you know there's some like
there's some what is it that sentence it
says talks about Jonah kind of Jonah but
referring to Christ it says Jonah
Jonah came out of the fish as if from
the bridal chamber and it's like came
out of the monster as it came out of the
monster as if from a bridal chamber so
can you have images like that anywhere
else like this crazy contraction of like
of yeah anyways and it's weird because
then you see in scripture where he talks
about the idea that you know the lamb
that was sacrificed before the
foundation of the world and so the cross
is actually revealing something like
it's not just an answer to sin it's
revealing a very deep mystery which is
actually or very origin of of creation
itself right
um Timothy patita has a wonderful image
in his book The the uh the ethics of
beauty
where he kind of he you know he's kind
of he's speculating obviously but his
speculation is quite powerful he says
one of the things he has this image
where when Adam took the fruit of the
knowledge of Good and Evil
and he and he was able to see the tree
of life right so it's like it worked
right it's like if you take the not the
the the tree of the Naja good and evil
then then you have access to the tree of
life then when he came to the tree of
life he saw the cross and he saw Christ
on the cross and he couldn't handle it
right it was it was way too much is like
that's not what he thought he would see
there you know and that's one of the
reasons why he freaked out and covered
himself and ran away basically because
it was just too much to deal with
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