Nandrolone with TRT - Nandrolone for TRT and HRT HR - addition of deca to hrt
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of 'Balance My Hormones,' Nelson Virgil, a prominent figure in the TRT community, discusses the clinical use of nandrolone, an anabolic steroid. He highlights its FDA approval since 1962 for anemia treatment and its off-label uses, including HIV wasting and joint pain in men with low testosterone. Virgil emphasizes the importance of shifting the stigma around nandrolone and other FDA-approved compounds, advocating for their broader acceptance in clinical practice. The conversation also touches on the challenges of accessing these treatments in different healthcare systems and the role of compounding pharmacies in the US.
Takeaways
- 💉 The speaker has a personal connection with nandrolone, having used it alongside testosterone for many years.
- 📚 Nelson Virgil, an author with a background in the TRT community, discusses the clinical use of nandrolone and its effects.
- 🏥 Nandrolone was approved by the FDA in 1962 for the treatment of anemia and has been used off-label for other conditions since then.
- 📊 Recent studies from Houston have shown nandrolone to be effective in reducing joint pain in men with low testosterone.
- 💊 Nandrolone is legally prescribed in the United States through compounding pharmacies, as it is no longer available as a brand-name drug.
- 🚫 The anabolic steroid control act in the 1990s made nandrolone illegal for non-clinical use, but it is now seeing a resurgence in clinical applications.
- 🤔 There is a debate about the long-term use of nandrolone due to its potential to decrease HDL cholesterol and increase blood pressure.
- 🌐 The speaker suggests that activism for men's health could help improve access to hormones and treatments like nandrolone.
- 💼 The compounding industry in the United States has played a crucial role in making nandrolone and other hormones more accessible.
- 💡 The speaker expresses concern about the potential loss of access to nandrolone and other treatments if the compounding industry is over-regulated.
- 🌟 The script concludes with a call for continued education and activism to ensure men have access to the hormones and treatments they need.
Q & A
What is the significance of nandrolone in the speaker's personal experience?
-The speaker has a special place in their heart for nandrolone due to its role when they started testosterone therapy. They did not start with testosterone alone but with nandrolone, which is also known as Deca in the bodybuilding world.
Why does the speaker want to shift the perception of nandrolone from bodybuilding to clinical use?
-The speaker aims to reduce the stigma associated with nandrolone and other FDA-approved compounds, emphasizing their clinical benefits and合法 uses beyond bodybuilding, such as for treating anemia and other conditions.
When was nandrolone approved by the FDA, and for what purpose?
-Nandrolone was approved by the FDA in 1962 for the treatment of anemia.
What is the current status of nandrolone's legality and prescription in the United States?
-Nandrolone is legally prescribed in the United States, often through compounding pharmacies, for various off-label uses, including joint pain and conditions like HIV wasting and cancer.
What recent research has been highlighted regarding nandrolone's effects on joint pain?
-A recent study from Baylor College of Medicine showed a dramatic decrease in joint pain for men with low testosterone after treatment with nandrolone.
Why is the availability of nandrolone through compounding pharmacies significant?
-Compounding pharmacies provide access to nandrolone by prescription, despite it no longer being available as a brand-name pharmaceutical product, making it more affordable and accessible for patients.
What are some of the potential side effects of nandrolone mentioned in the script?
-Potential side effects include a decrease in HDL (good cholesterol), increased blood pressure, and water retention, which can be detrimental to the kidneys.
How does the speaker view the future of nandrolone's clinical use in the United States?
-The speaker sees a positive trend, with growing data supporting its use and more doctors prescribing it legally for clinical purposes, despite the challenges from regulatory bodies.
What is the role of activism in advancing men's health and access to hormones like nandrolone?
-The speaker believes that activism can help raise awareness and push for better access to hormones needed for men's health, similar to how activism advanced HIV treatments and awareness.
What challenges do doctors face in prescribing off-label medications like nandrolone in countries with national healthcare systems?
-Doctors in countries with national healthcare systems may face bureaucratic restrictions and guidelines that make it difficult to prescribe off-label medications, even when there is evidence supporting their use.
How does the speaker suggest maintaining access to nandrolone and similar compounds in the United States?
-The speaker suggests protecting the compounding pharmacy industry and the self-pay or cash-based healthcare system, which allows for more flexibility in accessing off-label prescriptions.
Outlines
💉 Nandrolone and Testosterone: A Personal Journey and Clinical Insights
The speaker begins by sharing a personal connection to nandrolone, a medication they started using alongside testosterone. They discuss the historical use of nandrolone, branded as Deca-Durabolin, in bodybuilding and clinical settings since its FDA approval in 1962 for anemia treatment. The speaker highlights the shift from the stigmatized view of nandrolone in bodybuilding to recognizing its clinical applications, especially in HIV wasting syndrome. Recent studies from Houston show promising results in reducing joint pain for men with low testosterone, which aligns with the bodybuilding community's long-held beliefs about nandrolone's benefits. The paragraph concludes with the speaker's anticipation of nandrolone's expanding clinical use beyond HIV-related conditions.
🛒 The Availability and Prescription of Nandrolone in the United States
This paragraph delves into the availability of nandrolone in the United States, primarily through compounding pharmacies due to its discontinuation by major pharmaceutical companies. The speaker explains the process of how nandrolone became accessible again after the HIV crisis and the role of compounding in making it available for off-label prescriptions. They also discuss the clinical use of nandrolone in conditions like HIV, cancer, and anemia, and the importance of proper dosing to avoid side effects such as erectile dysfunction and decreased HDL cholesterol. The speaker emphasizes the growing trend of nandrolone prescription alongside testosterone to counteract the latter's suppressive effect on endogenous testosterone production.
🌍 International Perspectives on Hormone Therapy and Access to Treatment
The speaker and a guest discuss the differences in hormone therapy access and activism between the United States, the UK, and Europe. They touch on the challenges faced by doctors and patients due to strict guidelines and the bureaucracy of healthcare systems like the NHS. The conversation highlights the slower adoption of new treatments and the potential impact of cost on the availability of therapies like nandrolone. The speakers also express concern about the lack of activism for men's health and the need for more open-mindedness among medical professionals to evidence-based practices.
🏥 The Role of Compounding Pharmacies and Self-Pay Systems in Hormone Therapy
The speaker underscores the importance of compounding pharmacies and self-pay systems in the United States for the advancement of hormone therapies. They discuss the challenges faced by the compounding industry due to regulatory restrictions and the significance of these pharmacies in providing affordable and accessible treatments. The paragraph also addresses the impact of insurance companies denying coverage for certain prescriptions and how the self-pay system offers an alternative for patients. The speaker advocates for the protection of compounding pharmacies and the self-pay option as crucial for the future of hormone therapy.
🚨 Concerns Over Long-Term Use of Nandrolone in Hormone Replacement Therapy
In the final paragraph, the speaker shares personal concerns about the long-term use of nandrolone in conjunction with testosterone replacement therapy. They discuss the potential side effects, such as decreased HDL cholesterol and increased blood pressure, and the importance of finding the right dosage and duration for treatment. The speaker emphasizes the need for ongoing monitoring and the individualized approach to hormone therapy, acknowledging the complexity of balancing benefits and risks in clinical practice.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Testosterone
💡Nandrolone
💡TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy)
💡Anemia
💡Off-label use
💡Bodybuilding
💡HIV wasting
💡Anabolic steroids
💡FDA (Food and Drug Administration)
💡Compounding pharmacies
💡Men's health activism
Highlights
Nandrolone decanoate, also known as Deca, has a special place in the speaker's heart due to personal experiences with testosterone.
Nandrolone was initially used for clinical purposes such as anemia treatment, approved by the FDA in 1962.
Off-label use of nandrolone is legal in the U.S. if supported by evidence or studies.
Nandrolone was used in the 1990s for HIV-related wasting disease, particularly in South America.
Anabolic steroid control in the 90s made nandrolone illegal for non-clinical use.
Recent studies show nandrolone can significantly reduce joint pain in men with low testosterone.
Nandrolone is gaining recognition in the U.S. for uses beyond HIV wasting, thanks to research from Houston.
Nandrolone is available in the U.S. through compounding pharmacies due to its discontinuation by major pharmaceutical companies.
Doctors in the U.S. are increasingly prescribing nandrolone alongside testosterone to prevent side effects.
Nandrolone's clinical use is expanding, including for conditions like cancer and joint pain.
The speaker advocates for less stigma around the clinical use of anabolic compounds like nandrolone.
Nandrolone can improve cardiovascular health and has been used by the speaker for 20 years without severe side effects.
High doses of anabolics, including testosterone, can have negative effects like increased hematocrit and decreased HDL cholesterol.
The compounding industry plays a crucial role in making nandrolone and other hormones accessible at lower costs.
The speaker discusses the importance of activism for men's health and access to necessary hormones.
The speaker expresses hope for a future with less stigma and more access to hormones for men's health.
The impact of bureaucracy and healthcare systems on the prescription of hormones like nandrolone is discussed.
The speaker shares personal experiences with nandrolone, including dosage and long-term use.
The potential benefits and risks of long-term, low-dose nandrolone use in TRT are debated.
The importance of the self-pay system and compounding pharmacies in the U.S. for hormone access is highlighted.
Transcripts
that alone has a very special place in
my heart
okay when I started testosterone I
really did not start to start to learn
alone when I started testosterone with
nine Berlin nandrolone the brand name is
is there a gravel in in the bodybuilding
world aquatic data can nandrolone
be used clinically alongside trt find
out next
[Music]
alright so welcome to another episode of
balance my hormones we're here with a
special question time with nelson Virgil
he's the author of several books and has
a very big background in the TRT
community so we're very honored to have
Nelson with us today
I know Stan how are you hey hey guys how
you they I know Cynthia thanks I guess
whilst we're talking about the
nandrolone maybe we can talk about you
know your experiences in the TRT world
with nandrolone being used
IATI and some of the of the effects that
iran has a very special place in my
heart
okay no he's for obvious reasons I was
when I started testosterone I really did
not start the starter alone I start to
start from with not alone and alone the
brand name is is they can travel in and
the bodybuilding world they call it
theta okay we don't call the deck
anymore because there is nandrolone
and to be honest with you there the term
deca kind of a controlling kind of turns
me off because I'm trying to shift the
clinical world to the clinical use of
the Underland or the bodybuilding and
there's nothing wrong with very building
my way I'm I'm kind of a hobby of the
bodybuilder but I want to shift the
stigma of not only nandrolone but other
other compounds that are FDA approved
the FDA in United States approved
nandrolone
in 1962 most of you guys you definitely
I'm too young I was I was probably three
four years old and 1962 for the
treatment of anemia and
it has been used since then of label and
off-label means doctors can prescribe it
legally in the United States if there is
some evidence some studies that show
benefits or something else that was not
approved for and so we started getting
obviously in the in the early 1990s HIV
data with wasting disease in my country
I'm from Venezuela I remember when I
used to when I was growing up you would
give their two old men that had you know
frailty that were very frail you were
given back up that's that's what he was
prescribed back then at least in in
South America so here obviously the
anabolic steroid control at in the 90s
made all this crazy stuff you know
nandrolone illegal for non clinical use
so obviously we know what happened then
it was kind of crazy and still but we're
going through all that
yes but nandrolone is opening up united
states they use of nano known as a
prescription as a as a legally
prescribed product and I'll show some
data real quick because I it really is
is growing here in United States I never
thought I would see the day so I did
we're not alone was gonna be used beyond
HIV wasting I wanted to push it for
cancer wasting oncologists who haven't
been really open-minded some of them
have and we have very little some later
but it is opening up from one big reason
and it's it's basically show the
nandrolone basically we started to see
data from Houston I mean Houston has
become kind of a mecca for research to
from with the folks from from Baylor
College of Medicine dr. relief showed so
it's a friend of mine call back and some
others so I'm very also very lucky to be
Houston because I talk to them directly
we share a lot of information but
they've done a Studies on that alone
they can wait for a joint pain in men
with low testosterone these are men that
we're taking testosterone
they're complaining about a lot of
showing pains a lot of these guys are
going to the gym obviously some of us
you know tend to have issues with even
with shoulders or you know hips whatever
so they actually found really and this
is a very recent I think it was 99 2019
trying to get the date - yes 2019
published and they saw a dramatic
decrease in pain and joint pain this is
actually a measure of pain aroma chroma
toid arthritis pain scale and this is
the this axis and here so different
degrees of that but here in the total
you can see before treatment and after
treatment pain was dramatically reduced
and that's something that the
bodybuilding community has known for a
long time that Becca
not alone has been always known to
improve you know joint aches and even
flexibility sometimes for those that are
having issues so I'm glad to see they
folks at Baylor being unafraid about
this and actually really trying it out
on min so we're starting to see a lot
more data on this and a lot of a few
doctors I will say a lot prescribing it
legally not alone in the United States
is available through compounding
pharmacies
why because what son back in the days it
was he was played like so welcome first
they may take a drug Lin and they
eventually faced it out it was I think
they they probably got scared with
anabolic steroid control at etc etc and
other more expensive treatments for
anemia like Ipoh came out and obviously
Pharma always wants to the more
expensive option for profits so and I
don't know what's dropped in the middle
of our HIV crisis it was dropped meaning
no more another known even brand name or
company so I rushed to compound in
Foreman since I say listen you have to
save us we need our neither look for way
see and they started making it so that
was my first contact with compounding
now I'm very good relationships with
compounding pharmacies and the
compounding industry right so anyways it
is not available to like a brand-name
Pharma but it is available by
prescription through compounding here in
the United States so many doctors are
already prescribing it with testosterone
because not alone like any anabolic
shuts down your own testosterone
production your own endogenous
production so you don't want to
obviously have erectile dysfunction and
sexual dysfunction after a few weeks of
three days and then some people say well
there's a number long is known for
having nandrolone big or you know where
yeah yeah yeah and you know I really I'm
not one of those that believes that I
you know they may be some truth and
somehow but if you don't do it with the
proper dose of testosterone you may have
very tell this function like anything
else on a bar which is auction alone is
another legally prescribed anabolic for
clinical use we used to read or in HIV
and some cancer and some pediatrics and
burn patients it's also being described
there's a brand name their source of
compounding so in the States we believe
it or not things are moving forward when
it comes to getting this stigma out of
the clinical use of these compounds I
don't know whether this is a trend that
we're seeing worldwide because the data
is actually being presented by good
respected medical schools so I think it
is gonna get better when it comes to
less stigma more access I lived in the
States and and I don't know hopefully
maybe my next book should be about
nandrolone in you know clinical use of
nandrolone instead of hiv-related
I seen I don't know expanding at least
the United States because it's also good
for building muscle as we all know it
increases it like any anabolic any it
decreases sex hormone-binding globulin
and increases obviously free
testosterone which you know we know free
testosterone tends to be the most you
know important or active metabolite of
testosterone or portion of testosterone
and
the benefits I'm biased I use another
loan for I don't know 20 years weekly my
cardiovascular system is good my
prostate is good in HIV you used it for
a long time many people higher doses
then I prescribe now 200 milligrams a
week is the dose I used to use 400 and
you know I don't know anybody had died
of a heart attack hey I'm not getting
coffee I think all anabolics even
testosterone a higher doses tends to
have a negative effect not only on
hematocrit which is the portion of blood
the regular cells percent or portion of
your blood that makes your blood thicker
either higher doses of testosterone or
nandrolone or any anabolic decreases HDL
which is a good cholesterol and increase
blood pressure what a retention which is
not good for the kidneys
there's no liver toxicity thank God on
injectables except winstrol but we don't
have that legal here in the United
States so there are ways to do to use
these compounds I had lower dose maybe
100 milligrams see each other and 50
million on testosterone and alone a week
and I don't know obviously not for a
long term even though I did use it for a
long term and back then I was really
terrified about loosing weight more than
now so I see I see a trend and the trend
is positive here in the states the
government has in the DEA hasn't gotten
involved in this kind of use and
hopefully they want I think what we have
lacked in the United States and around
the world this activism for men's health
in HIV we were active we were tearing
things down we were tying ourselves to
you know to two fences we were blocking
traffic we were dying obviously that
degree of of desperation will probably
never be present in Miss health activism
but I really dream
before I die I'm a 61 year old man that
we will reach a day where we're gonna
have activism around men's health about
around access to hormones that we need
about you know other things that but
obviously we are we are experiencing
right now but we don't speak up because
nobody has taught us how to do so I see
it a lot in the states I see it in other
countries where men are very frustrated
and and doctors don't seem to be
changing their mind so I think in a way
I'm not saying that we need something
desperate to be activists but there's no
reason by men's health and women's
health obviously year so that's a
separate issue that and you don't know
there a lot of we're really good women's
activist for women's health activist so
anyways I'm getting and getting off so
it's a good point is because I even in
the UK like you we talk about it this
study comes out let's just say they do a
few on Europe as well they do a few good
studies on the benefits of something
like nandrolone or or you know even just
testosterone and things like that and
then a patient maybe presents with said
evidence you know the doctor the the
even of a doctor is is really open to
like changing their practice through
evidence and things like that the
scrutiny of like the bureaucracy that
covers the gmz for example covering
doctors as an example and things like
that if if they if doctors and
particularly with that NHS which is
massively overpowering further practice
in the UK and Europe anyway but if they
if they're they not are they're not
following guidelines so guidelines have
now become rules so even in America
where you're pushing forwards is much
easier for a doctor to go hey great new
study by this person you know really
good outcomes I could justify this you
know against the board if I was
questioned because of the new evidences
come out that takes years I mean look
how far we know just getting CRT in
hormone therapies in the UK you know
it's way behind the US and even if a
doctors like the best doctor that's so
so minimal to it they you know they
got this restriction abate they'll be no
sword of Damocles about their hair just
waiting to be caught up on it so it's
really difficult even in that in the
actual field of medicine just to get the
basics of things so I think even if
nandrolone for example is one of those
things where maybe it becomes you know
more mainstream I think it's gonna be
even more delayed can't be positive I
think it even be more delayed coming to
the UK what do you think Mike do you
think yeah I think part of it is the
cost as well I mean we were told even
about two RT being available in the UK
to most men on the NHS was they they saw
the mistake they made with HRT for women
and they didn't want to go down that
huge potential cost so they've actually
lowered to very low standards you know
even giving trt so I much doubt they
would prescribe nan alone for really
anything other than what's on the
package insert the package leaflet so
that which is usually I think bone
fracture or osteopenia or osteoporosis
but um you know you need to talk about
the mail there the access from male
health mean even mental health if you
look at suicide rate for men you know I
think it's worldwide they even in the UK
and Europe it's it's really like mental
health has been cut in the NHS which is
our main supply of you know sort of
medical care it's just massively cut so
you're missing out on all of these
things and you know I think you're right
there is something missing but
fortunately we you know we've got the
ability in the UK and like I think other
healthcare systems in Canada where we
can offer private health care to it to
our patients but unfortunately the the
regulator's also on to what's good for
the NHS make big try to make it the same
for the private sector yeah what has
really changed things here in the states
and he's fortunate is an unfortunate
thing is that all of this progress most
of our progress in the hormone field has
happened because we have a dual system
we have the insurance system which as
you well know in the UK here in the
states is very complicated because
discussion political discussion for many
years and we also have the bit self paid
or were a field this has the self paleo
or the cash basis field which is is
where all the progress is happening so
unfortunately for you to have access you
definitely have to have the cash is not
super expensive but it's it's there and
also the fact that we have a very strong
and they're trying to dismantle and I'm
go against them a compounding industry
that the FDA and the DEA unfortunately
all of them mostly the FDA and trying to
put more and more restrictions and you
know there's some issues there anyways
I'm gonna get into that but we do have a
strong compounding industry where things
can be sold lower prices and obviously
and on a cash basis on our self pay
basis and that has made a humongous
difference when it comes to off-label
prescriptions meaning prescriptions
where dr. Shah prescribing legally but
it wasn't approved for that purpose but
there's some data behind it
so without the compounding industry this
would not have happened without axis
because nan-oh long as I said was
abandoned even in the middle of the HIV
crisis that we had abandoned by Pharma
and then compounding picked it up the
same thing with HCG ACG has is a brand
name also in the states like it is
everywhere else but compounding makes it
all cheaper they're trying they're now
basically is successfully trying to shut
down that part of the compounding
industry and we're obviously fighting
here and that's why it means health
activist items that I have to do this
year and so an testosterone also
testosterone
we have many brand names many Pharma me
testosterone products and they're
covered in my book but the main ones
they're sauce or injections and creams
are made by compounding out a lot
cheaper price so what's happening here
in the states as the insurance companies
are denying prescription or coverage
payment for prescriptions of
testosterone for men that do not qualify
meaning if you have 350 nanograms who
you guys use that no mores there I think
it's probably a
I don't know so here they they just
don't want to cover so doctors can or
and patients can reach with the same
prescription a compounding pharmacy and
they will get it they will get the
product so if it wasn't for that
flexibility we would be in a really
different shape in the United States so
that has been something that most men in
the states don't know how lucky we are
and I need to educate men that hey we
cannot lose that option so we need to
actively protect the company Pharmacy as
long as a compounding pharmacy is
following the rules safety and sterility
rules one compounding pharmacy was
responsible for the death of many many
people with meningitis because they
didn't have to reality this is a chorus
coracoid steroid for in fact for
Hospital use then meningitis in in in
people died so honestly oh this FDA
changed the regulations but without the
compounding industry I would not be able
to talk about nandrolone HCG and that's
for so or whatever it is else that we
talk about so hopefully in the UK it
could be a movement where you guys have
a parallel system of a strong
compounding industry and in a mimic what
we're doing here you guys have something
we do not have is the national health
care system which obviously the states
is trying to get to I don't know what
anything it's a plus you have to go
broke you guys don't go broke like we do
here when we get sick but at the same
time if you want to get anything that
off-label for that system I'm sure you
get shut down and you said and for
obvious reasons but having a parallel to
systems where people can move to if they
the system is not working for them is
the way to go but hey we're talking
about politics
move on to the next question
do you just quickly last bill matter do
you think there's a place for long term
low-dose nandrolone with CRT I know
somebody's gonna ask I really believe
you know they
tl I don't do not alone anymore there's
a good reason why I mean I am really
concerned about the HDL drop in
cholesterol high density yeah I am so
and I do my blood pressure goes up I'm
borderline or with some blood pressure
and I've tried many blood pressure
medications they all give me fatigue or
IDI or something so I'm right now on
nervous but they blood pressure I think
everybody reaches I believe I should
have a graph on that a barrier at wall
every man has a wall when they come TRT
or nitrile or anything when it comes to
dough see you can they hire the doors it
doesn't really mean you feel better and
people are finding that out yes higher
the dose more hematocrit more blood
pressure problems more more as I said
the HDL issue so when you had another
loan to testosterone you're also adding
an androgen that would cause more of
that even the same thing with HCG when
you add HCG to testosterone you can even
you know you can add on to those typical
androgenic side effects so the dose and
the duration has to you guys that's what
you guys do obviously you have known in
clinic you are the duration of 19 or so
men long some people are really good at
a hundred milligrams a week with an HDL
of 35 to 40 here which is not bad and a
blood pressure is normal and as a matter
of grid that that's a requirement to go
to block the nation every three months
and then you know you could to go so
there are many variables as you well
know that's what you
ok so ok thanks for watching mr.
imbalance more hormones hopefully the
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