The Narcissism Doctor: THESE Toxic Patterns Are Signs You're Dealing With A Narcissist

Summary

In this insightful conversation, Dr. Romany discusses the complexities of narcissism and its impact on relationships. She clarifies the difference between narcissistic personality traits and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), emphasizing that while many people exhibit narcissistic traits, a formal diagnosis of NPD requires a professional assessment. The discussion delves into the patterns of narcissistic relationships, which often begin with an idealized phase called 'love bombing' before descending into a cycle of manipulation, invalidation, and emotional abuse. Dr. Romany highlights the importance of recognizing when a relationship is unhealthy and the challenges of disentangling oneself from such dynamics. She also addresses the process of healing from narcissistic abuse, which involves understanding one's own value and establishing boundaries. The conversation underscores the significance of empathy and self-compassion in healing, while also acknowledging the potential for growth and change in individuals with narcissistic tendencies, though such change is often a long and difficult journey.

Takeaways

• 🚫 **Narcissism vs. Narcissistic Personality Disorder**: Narcissism is a personality style, not inherently a disorder, whereas Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a formal diagnosis given by a licensed therapist after observing consistent, pervasive patterns of narcissistic behavior across various relationships.
• 🌟 **The Allure of Narcissists**: Narcissists are often attracted to individuals who can provide them with 'supply,' which can include physical attractiveness, status, praise, or simply being a nice person who offers validation.
• 🔄 **Consistent Patterns in Narcissistic Relationships**: Relationships with narcissists often follow a pattern that includes an idealized beginning, manipulation, invalidation, gaslighting, rage, blame-shifting, deceit, and eventual discarding once the narcissist no longer finds the relationship useful.
• ⏳ **The Role of Time in Narcissistic Relationships**: Over time, the dynamic in a narcissistic relationship can shift from a seemingly positive connection to one that is increasingly negative and emotionally draining for the non-narcissistic partner.
• 🧲 **Trauma Bonding**: Individuals in relationships with narcissists can experience a form of trauma bonding, which involves alternating between positive and negative experiences, leading to intense emotional attachment despite the harm being caused.
• 😔 **The Impact of Narcissistic Abuse**: Survivors of narcissistic abuse often report feelings of anxiety, sadness, self-blame, and a loss of sense of self, which can result in a struggle to regain their identity and autonomy post-relationship.
• 🤔 **Justification and Cognitive Dissonance**: People in narcissistic relationships may justify the narcissist's behavior due to cognitive dissonance, finding it difficult to accept the inconsistency between their expectations of the relationship and the reality they experience.
• 🌱 **Healing and Growth**: Healing from a narcissistic relationship involves relearning one's own needs and desires, regaining self-confidence, and building a support network of validating relationships.
• 🔗 **The Challenge of Change for Narcissists**: While change is possible for narcissists, it requires a significant amount of humility, self-awareness, and a commitment to therapy and personal growth that many may not be willing or able to achieve.
• 🤝 **Support Networks**: Having a support network that can provide validation and counteract the effects of gaslighting is crucial for individuals recovering from narcissistic abuse.
• ❌ **The Myth of Forgiveness and Healing**: Forgiving a narcissist is not a prerequisite for healing. It is possible to empathize with a narcissist while also recognizing the harm they have caused and maintaining boundaries.

Q & A

What is the difference between a narcissist and someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)?

A narcissist refers to someone with a maladaptive personality style characterized by traits like entitlement, grandiosity, and a lack of empathy. Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a clinical diagnosis given by a licensed therapist who identifies consistent and pervasive narcissistic patterns across various relationships and situations.

Why might a person be attractive to a narcissist?

A person may be attractive to a narcissist because they can provide 'supply' to the narcissist, which can include physical attractiveness, status, praise, or simply being a nice person who offers validation and admiration.

What is the initial phase of a relationship with a narcissist often called, and what are its characteristics?

The initial phase is often called 'love bombing,' characterized by intense attention, gestures, and seeming attunement to the new partner. However, this attention can later be used against the person, as the narcissist may exploit vulnerabilities they learned during this phase.

What are some common traits or behaviors exhibited by someone with NPD in a relationship?

Common traits and behaviors include manipulation, invalidation, minimization, gaslighting, rage, blame-shifting, deceit, betrayal, lying, infidelity, and neglect. The narcissist seeks supply and validation, showing little interest in the other person's needs or reality.

Why do people often struggle to leave a relationship with a narcissist?

People struggle to leave because of attachment needs, societal pressures, and the trauma bonding that occurs due to the intense emotional cycles (good and bad) created by the narcissist. Additionally, empathetic individuals may be more prone to making excuses and justifications, hoping to maintain the relationship.

What is the impact of narcissistic abuse on a person's psychological well-being?

The impact includes feelings of rumination, regret, anxiety, sadness, self-blame, self-doubt, hypervigilance, social anxiety, dissociation, sleep problems, and neurovegetative symptoms of depression. However, most survivors do not develop clinical depression.

How does empathy function in the context of a relationship with a narcissist?

Empathy can function as a survival response, where the individual tries to be as kind and good as possible to win over the narcissist. This can lead to confusion and shame after the relationship ends, as the person questions why they were so nice to someone who was abusive.

What is the role of forgiveness in the healing process after experiencing narcissistic abuse?

Forgiveness is not a necessary component of healing. Some people may find it beneficial, but for others, it can be harmful, especially if it involves repeatedly forgiving a repeat perpetrator. The focus should be on healing and self-preservation rather than granting forgiveness.

What is radical acceptance, and how does it play a role in the healing process?

Radical acceptance is the absolute acceptance that the narcissist's behavior is not going to change in a way that would result in a healthy relationship. It is about recognizing the reality of the situation and making decisions based on that understanding, which can lead to a profound sense of grief but is a crucial step in healing.

What are some strategies to help someone rebuild their sense of self after a relationship with a narcissist?

Strategies include focusing on basic physiological needs and preferences, seeking support from trusted others who can validate experiences, trying new activities to build self-efficacy, and gradually working towards understanding one's identity, values, and purpose.

Can a narcissist ever heal or change?

While change is unlikely, it is not impossible. A narcissist may experience some degree of change if they engage in therapy with a skilled professional, demonstrate humility, and commit to years of dedicated work. However, the harm caused to others is often not fixable, and expecting a narcissist to change is generally not a healthy approach.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Understanding Narcissism and Its Impact on Relationships

The first paragraph discusses the attraction of narcissistic individuals to those who provide them with 'supply,' which can include physical attractiveness, status, praise, and validation. It emphasizes the importance of recognizing when a relationship with a narcissist is becoming unhealthy and knowing how to disengage. The speaker also invites the audience to join a community focused on health and wellness, and clarifies the difference between narcissism as a personality style and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which is a more severe and chronic condition recognized by a therapist's diagnosis.

05:02

😐 The Cultural Awareness of Narcissism and Its Challenges

The second paragraph explores the cultural shift in awareness and dialogue surrounding narcissism. It suggests that narcissistic traits have likely always been present but are now more openly discussed and identified. The paragraph also addresses the negative consequences of public shaming and the complexities of diagnosing NPD. It highlights the importance of clear communication and understanding the nuances of narcissistic behavior in various relationships.

10:02

😟 The Allure and Danger of Narcissistic Relationships

The third paragraph delves into why people are attracted to narcissists, noting that it's not necessarily due to a lack of self-esteem but rather a range of factors that provide 'supply' to the narcissist. It outlines the consistent pattern of a narcissistic relationship, likening the narcissist to a volcano with shame and insecurity as its bubbling lava. The paragraph explains how narcissists use various tactics to maintain control and supply, including manipulation, invalidation, and deceit.

15:03

😔 The Trauma Bond and the Struggle with Leaving Narcissistic Relationships

The fourth paragraph discusses the concept of the trauma bond that forms in narcissistic relationships, which leads to a cycle of blame and self-justification. It explains how the narcissistic person's behavior can fluctuate between idealization and devaluation, causing confusion and a sense of loss when the relationship ends. The paragraph also touches on the primal human need for attachment and how it can lead to self-devaluing behavior in the face of abusive or unattuned relationships.

20:05

🧐 The Psychological Impact of Narcissistic Abuse and the Role of Empathy

The fifth paragraph examines the deep psychological effects of narcissistic abuse, which include rumination, regret, anxiety, sadness, and self-blame. It highlights the role of empathy in these relationships and how it can become a survival response, leading to a state of hypervigilance and dissociation. The paragraph also discusses the importance of maintaining empathy while healing from the abuse and the challenge of differentiating between empathy and forgiveness.

25:07

😢 The Journey of Healing from Narcissistic Abuse

The sixth paragraph focuses on the process of healing from narcissistic abuse. It emphasizes the importance of not amputating one's empathetic nature but rather learning to be more discerning. The paragraph discusses the challenges of maintaining empathy while disengaging from a harmful relationship and the complex emotions that arise, such as pity and guilt. It also addresses the concept of forgiveness in the context of narcissistic abuse and the personal decision-making involved in forgiving or not forgiving the abuser.

30:08

🤔 The Role of Radical Acceptance and Grief in Healing

The seventh paragraph introduces the concept of radical acceptance as a crucial part of healing from narcissistic abuse. It defines radical acceptance as the complete acknowledgment that the narcissistic person's behavior will not change in a way that would result in a healthy relationship. The paragraph also discusses the grief that follows this acceptance, as it involves letting go of hopes and narratives attached to the relationship. It highlights the importance of resilience and flexibility in coping with the grief and moving forward.

35:09

😌 Rebuilding Identity and Self-Worth Post-Narcissistic Abuse

The eighth paragraph discusses the process of re-establishing one's identity and self-worth after leaving a narcissistic relationship. It emphasizes the importance of reconnecting with one's physiological and emotional experiences, making small decisions, and gradually rebuilding a sense of self. The paragraph also touches on the significance of having a support system that validates one's experiences and the concept of turning to trusted others for affirmation and anti-gaslighting.

40:10

😕 The Internal Struggle and Oscillation in the Healing Process

The ninth paragraph explores the internal struggle that survivors of narcissistic abuse face as they oscillate between progress and feelings of loss or confusion. It discusses the importance of embracing this oscillation as part of the healing process and the role of an individuated self in overcoming the internalized voice from the narcissistic relationship. The paragraph also highlights the need for external validation and the process of relearning and rebuilding self-efficacy.

45:10

😇 The Potential for Change in Narcissistic Individuals and the Survivor's Journey

The tenth paragraph considers whether narcissistic individuals can change and heal. It acknowledges that some narcissistic people, shaped by adversity, may make progress if they engage in therapy and work on personal growth with humility. The paragraph also addresses the reality that the harm done to others by narcissistic individuals is often not easily repairable. It advises against waiting for a narcissist to change, as it can lead to a loss of self and potential. The conversation concludes with a message of hope and affirmation for survivors, emphasizing their value and the importance of their gifts to the world.

50:12

📚 Promoting Awareness and Support for Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse

The eleventh paragraph serves as a call to action for readers to seek out resources and support for dealing with narcissistic abuse. It promotes Dr. Ramy's book as a source of knowledge and insights for understanding and healing from narcissistic relationships. The paragraph encourages readers to follow Dr. Ramy on social media for further guidance and to share their experiences and takeaways from the conversation to help others who may be in similar situations.

55:14

🌟 Embracing Difficult Feelings and the Importance of Motivation

The twelfth and final paragraph shifts the focus to the broader topic of dealing with negative emotions and the concept of motivation. It suggests that motivation, like any other emotion, can fluctuate and should not be forced. The paragraph ends with a teaser for an upcoming interview with Dr. Julie Smith on the subject of embracing difficult feelings, hinting at further valuable insights for listeners.

Keywords

💡Narcissism

Narcissism is defined as a personality style characterized by traits such as entitlement, lack of empathy, grandiosity, and a constant need for admiration. In the context of the video, it is discussed as a maladaptive and rigid style that often leads to difficulties in forming healthy relationships. The video emphasizes the distinction between narcissism as a style and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which is a clinical diagnosis.

💡Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)

NPD is a formal psychiatric diagnosis given to individuals who exhibit a pervasive pattern of narcissistic behaviors. It is mentioned in the video that not everyone with narcissistic traits receives this diagnosis, and it requires a professional assessment. The script highlights that the presence of NPD doesn't necessarily correlate with the severity of narcissistic behaviors, as some undiagnosed individuals may exhibit more severe traits.

💡Supply

In the context of the video, 'supply' refers to what narcissistic individuals seek from others, such as physical attractiveness, status, praise, or admiration. It is a core concept as it explains why narcissists are attracted to certain people who can provide them with these needs. The video suggests that being a nice person and offering praise can inadvertently make one attractive to a narcissist.

💡Trauma Bond

A trauma bond is a strong emotional attachment between an abused person and their abuser, often observed in narcissistic relationships. The video describes this bond as resulting from the alternating pattern of kindness and cruelty, which can lead to intense emotional highs and lows, making it difficult for the victim to leave the relationship.

💡Gaslighting

Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation where a person makes someone question their own reality or sanity. The video discusses it as a tactic used by narcissists to invalidate and control their victims, leading to confusion and self-doubt within the relationship.

💡Radical Acceptance

Radical acceptance is the process of fully acknowledging and accepting the reality of a situation, particularly in the context of accepting that a narcissistic person's behavior is not going to change. The video emphasizes its importance in the healing process, as it allows individuals to make decisions based on this understanding and move forward without hoping for a change in the narcissist's behavior.

💡Empathy

Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. The video explores the complex relationship between empathy and narcissistic abuse, where survivors often retain their empathetic nature even towards their abusers. It is distinguished from forgiveness, with the video suggesting that one can empathize with a narcissist without forgiving their actions.

💡Forgiveness

Forgiveness is the act of pardoning or ceasing to resent. The video discusses the debate around whether forgiveness is necessary for healing from narcissistic abuse. It suggests that forgiveness is a personal decision and not a requirement for recovery, challenging the common notion that one must forgive to heal.

💡Healing Journey

The healing journey refers to the process of recovery and self-discovery that survivors of narcissistic abuse go through. The video outlines various stages of this journey, from radical acceptance and grief to rebuilding self-identity and self-worth. It highlights the importance of support systems and self-efficacy in facilitating this journey.

💡Humility

Humility is the quality of being modest and humble, which the video suggests is an essential ingredient for a narcissistic individual to begin a potential healing process. It involves recognizing one's flaws and accepting that one is not superior to others. The video implies that humility can counteract the grandiose self-image often seen in narcissism.

💡Individuation

Individuation is the process of distinguishing oneself as a unique individual, separate from others. In the context of the video, it is a crucial part of the healing process for survivors of narcissistic abuse, who often have to rediscover their own identity after it has been suppressed or invalidated in the relationship.

Highlights

Narcissistic people are attracted to those who provide them with supply, such as physical attractiveness, status, praise, and may be drawn to kind and praising individuals.

It's important to recognize when to disengage from a narcissistic person before the relationship becomes too toxic.

The distinction between a narcissist, which is a personality style, and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which is a clinical diagnosis.

The prevalence of narcissism in history and how it's often associated with significant figures who have made substantial impacts, both positive and negative.

The cultural shift in discussing narcissism and how social media and platforms have facilitated a broader conversation about it.

The pattern of a narcissistic relationship often begins with an idealized and seductive phase, known as love bombing, before shifting to a more manipulative and devaluing dynamic.

The concept of 'supply' in narcissistic relationships, referring to the attention and admiration that narcissists seek and feed off.

The impact of narcissistic abuse can lead to feelings of worthlessness, self-doubt, and a loss of identity for the victim.

The necessity of radical acceptance in the healing process, which involves acknowledging the unchanging nature of a narcissist's behavior.

The role of grief in the healing journey, as letting go of the hope for change in a narcissist involves mourning the loss of the expected relationship.

The importance of re-establishing self-identity and autonomy post-abuse, which includes regaining trust in one's feelings and reactions.

The potential for healing and growth for survivors of narcissistic abuse, emphasizing the rebuilding of self-worth and self-confidence.

The challenge of narcissistic individuals in recognizing and accepting their own ordinariness and the need for humility in the healing process.

The difficulty for narcissists to maintain changes in behavior, often reverting back to their original patterns when under stress.

The advice against waiting for a narcissist to change, as the likelihood is low and the cost to one's own well-being is high.

The transformative power of empathy in healing from narcissistic relationships, while maintaining boundaries and self-protection.

The book 'It's Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People' as a resource for understanding and recovering from narcissistic abuse.

Transcripts

narcissistic people are attracted to

people who will give them Supply

physical attractiveness status praise so

you just being a nice person and

praising someone could actually be what

makes you attractive to them so people

may think well does that mean I have to

stop being me I'd say no they may be

attracted to you and you may be

compelled for a minute but the key is

then to know how to get off the carousel

before it starts going too fast before

we jump into this episode I'd like to

invite you to join this community to

hear more into views that will help you

become happier healthier and more healed

all I want you to do is click on the

Subscribe button I love your support

it's incredible to see all your comments

and we're just getting started I can't

wait to go on this journey with you

thank you so much for subscribing it

means the world to me the number one

Health and Wellness podcast J shett J

shett the one the only J

shett I want to start off Dr Romany by

again clarifying terms because I think

we're living at a time where there's so

many terms on Tik Tok and YouTube and

social media and often they transpire

into how we talk to our family members

friends yes what is the difference

between a narcissist and narcissistic

personality disorder so let's start

there because this is already muddying

the water so much right so narcissism is

a personality style right there's lots

of different personality Styles out

there certainly narcissism is a more

maladaptive personality style because it

puts people at odds with other people

it's not good for their relationship but

it is a personality style and in of

itself it's not a disorder there is

something called narcissistic

personality disorder which is when a

person is presenting with these various

narcissistic patterns we've talked about

the low and variable empathy the

entitlement the grandiosity the

arrogance the Envy the admiration and

validation seeking that whole laundry

list the egocentricity all the

selfishness all that stuff right so all

of that is happening it's chronic it's

pervasive it shows up in their life and

various on a whole bunch of different

relationships the difference is they

actually go to a therapist office who's

licensed and trained to issue a

diagnosis and that therapist determines

like yep I'm seeing these patterns

they're consistent they're across

situations and they may assign them that

diagnosis the vast majority of people

who have this personality style are

never going to be in a practitioner's

office who's going to make that

determination and it gets tricky right

because to call something a disorder

raises a whole bunch of issues

personally Jay if I ran the world I

think we'd get rid of this diagnosis I

think we get nothing out of it it

doesn't I don't even think it helps the

clients a lot of clinicians don't issue

it because it feels stigmatizing there's

a whole host of reasons I think it

shouldn't be but it is right now here's

what you've got to remember when we look

at narcissism in the world right so

there's people out there who are

narcissistic they might be mildly

narcissistic and a little bit more

emotionally immature and just sort of

selfish and shallow all the way up to

severe where it can be malignant and and

it can be uh coercive and manipulative

and all of that and there's all the

stuff in between this book is really

focused on the in between right so most

people aren't dealing with someone

coercive that's and many are and that's

a much more severe issue that is

probably beyond the scope of the

book but most people who are dealing

with the mild

narcissism they're frustrated and

annoyed but they're not

devastated and hurt like we see in that

sort of middle level of narcissism right

so the difference is literally that sort

of mechanical point they weren't seen by

someone and I don't know that any listen

I'll be honest with you if I met someone

at a dinner party and they start telling

me their life I might even think in my

head I've got a hypothesis clinically

what's happening in no Universe we

occupy would I ever say to that person

even if I talked to them for two hours I

think you have generalized anxiety

disorder I think you have bipolar too I

just wouldn't say it right it's not the

setting it's not the situation I might

strongly suggest say hey you should talk

to someone right so what get where it

gets interesting is the mistake a lot of

people make is number one they assume

that if a person has narcissistic

personality disorder that their

narcissism is more severe not

necessarily there are people out there

with NPD narcissistic personality

disorder whose narcissism actually is

not as severe as people who were never

diagnosed because they never went into

that situation so you see what I'm

saying so there's people out there who

are malignant narcissistic people

they're never seen by anyone we can

speculate we could spitball we' say yeah

it's probably the case but that person

with NPD May simply seen a clinician the

other piece though here too is that what

it's doing is it's creating this very

sort of strange space where people are

saying these are the patterns I'm seeing

in a partner parent whomever I think

they might be narcissistic and the

internet as it does is very quick to to

shame that person who do you think you

are how could you think this about

someone and this person has probably

already been really hurt really

devastated by this relationship is now

being shamed for sharing like I think

this might be what's happening it's also

creating this s really painful space so

suffice it to say I think in the public

conversation about narcissism we should

only call it narcissism getting into the

Weeds on NPD is really getting on this

sort of subtle clinical point and it

just creates it it makes a lot of noise

here so we're not able to have the clear

conversation that these personality

styles are harming the people who are in

these

relationships yeah it makes a lot of

sense why do you think it is that all of

a sudden it seems at least culturally

that more people are interacting with

narcissists like you'll be talking to a

friend and they'll be like oh God I'm so

glad I just got out relationship with

the narcissist or I'm struggling I'm

healing as your book teaches you how to

like I'm healing from this relationship

I had I think they were narcissistic

like why is it all of a sudden we're

feeling this kind of awareness in

culture has it always been there has it

increased what what's happened it's

always been there J I think as long as

there were people it has been there and

I always say to people open up a history

book I'd say about 75% of the people

they've written about in that history

book were probably quite narcissistic

narcissistic people make history they

and in fact honestly they often are

responsible for some of the greatest

Innovations we've ever known doesn't

make them nice people and I'd say let

them innovate just don't go on a date

with them you know that's really what

we're talking about here so there is an

outof the-box to them there's a fantasy

that they live in that they often feel

compelled to create so you better

believe that they've always been there I

don't know that we would have had the

leaps and balance we've had in some ways

without that right so that said it's

always been there but we never had a

name for it remember psychology is a

field in its infancy what's it been

around 1507 25 years so it's it's

evolving and so this concept of talking

about someone's personality in this way

maybe since the late 1800s we've even

been having that conversation people

have been doing narcissistic stuff to

Partners children family members since

time

immemorial we just didn't have a name

for it I think at some level because

until recently I think almost all

cultures were probably much more author

itarian patriarchally patriarchally

organized I think we're seeing sort of

bigger conversations around that so I

think there was almost a strange sort of

universal radical acceptance that some

people are just really jerky and let's

just follow what they're saying and and

so we didn't we just didn't even think

of it that way but we see history books

of Kings who were ogres and Invaders who

were horrific and these were not nice

people they were the narcissists of

their time now to your other question

why are we talking about it like even 10

years ago a person wouldn't have said my

partner my boy you heard it that's what

I mean but they would have said first of

all we didn't have the platforms but if

they did talk about they're such a jerk

why do they keep doing this to me I

can't figure this out everyone has

always been having the conversations we

didn't we're using different languaging

now and if anything we now have a

construct we and and we Now understand

this hangs together the point of this

book was really to say there are people

with these personalities they're out

there the way they show up in

relationships is pretty consistently the

same and instead of blaming yourself and

wondering what you could do it's not you

yeah it's really them and they're having

their process and their journey and

probably not going to get the help they

need to defend it against it but rolling

up and turning your life into a human

sacrifice to please or win over or prove

something to an unwinable over person I

have watched people waste lifetimes

doing this you know and it's even

particularly compelling if it's her

parent but even if it's a long-term

intimate relationship with some

especially if they got into the

relationship young so this has always

been a thing yeah no that's that's that

makes a lot of sense and I appreciate

how our vocabulary evolves with time and

as that expands and extends it allows us

to Better Label and understand things

and I know that this book is primarily

about the relationship a narcissistic

relationship and then the healing

Journey but before we dive into that I

wanted to ask you a question how do you

stop attracting a narcissist like is

there a way to not attract a narcissist

Dre I wish I could say yes and here's

where I want to actually give my props

to everyone's listening out there who

has attracted a narcissist you know why

you attracted a narcissist because

you're attractive and what I mean by

attractive is you may be physically

beautiful it may be your physique it may

be your something you know it may be

your social status it may be that you

could do something for them what's

attractive to them may not be attractive

to the rest of us you're attractive to

them because you're attractive because

you may have power of some kind in the

world when I say power I don't mean like

you're a leader I mean you're

self-possessed many people who get into

these relationships we have this

mistaken assumption that the people who

get into these relationships are

Shrinking Violets who have low

self-esteem absolutely not I I've got to

tell you some of the people i' seen get

into these relationships I'm like woo I

should have your self-esteem they there

there they're strong and they're they

know who they are and they're saying

this thing dismantled me Brick by Brick

I was really well put together when I

met this person right so this isn't

about a person who doesn't have

self-esteem it can be but it's

definitely not an absolute narcissistic

people are attracted to people who will

give them Supply what is supply for

every narcissistic person might be a

little different but it's usually

physical attractiveness status praise so

you just being a nice person and

praising someone could actually be what

makes you attractive to them so people

may think well does that mean I have to

stop being me I'd say no they may be

attracted to you and you may be

compelled for a minute but the key is

then to know how to get off the carousel

before it starts going too fast good

answer good answer I'm like it it makes

a lot of sense and again it's not you

it's not you it comes back to that which

I like to walk me through the consistent

you talk about narcissism being

consistent walk me through the

consistent pattern of a narcissistic

relationship so that anyone who's

listening can because I think like

you're saying a lot of us sometimes feel

scared to admit that we might even be

with a narcissist because it's it's

scary to accept that and admit that and

have that realization because we think

it's something to do with us we think

we've wasted time there can be a sunk

cost bias of I thought I had a future

with this person so walk me through the

pattern of a narcissistic relationship

let's just talk briefly

it helps us understand the pattern they

have traits things like I talked about

the entitlement the lack of empathy the

grandiosity the arrogance the

selfishness I want you to think of a

narcissistic person as a volcano and

that volcano has got this bubbling lava

and the lava for the narcissistic person

is shame and insecurity so they want to

be able to plug the top of that volcano

right and that plug is all this stuff

the entitlement the grandiosity I'm

perfect I'm great it's this so it it

keeps all that stuff under WS that's not

a conscious process right so but every

so often in life something's going to

push that lid off to the side which

might be feedback a criticism somebody

ends a relationship with them whatever

it is something their day doesn't go the

way they want they get stuck in traffic

and they're late to something they don't

get the table they want in a restaurant

whatever it may be that nudges that man

hole cover over and the lava starts

spilling out and that lava is their rage

and their anger because their shame has

been shown all of this is unconscious so

all these patterns in the

relationship the way they show up in the

narcissistic person is

manipulation invalidation of the other

person minimization of what another

person is going through uh gaslighting

rage and

reactivity uh future faking which means

promises are made and broken just to

keep a person sort of on the hook um

there will be uh blame shifting they

won't take responsibility they'll always

blame the other person which is why

people in these relationships always

tend to blame themselves there's a lot

of Deceit betrayal lying infidelity

there is neglect over time they just

give less and less and less to the

relationship and the person in the

relationship is trying to make do on the

tiniest tiniest bits of being noticed

that's how they show up in the

relationship everything in the

relationship is about them getting

Supply and validation they have

absolutely no interest in the needs

wants and honestly subjective reality of

the other person in the relationship

over time the other person gets almost

is considered an inconvenience if you

want something you're an inconvenience

much like this cup Cup's convenient when

I want to drink from it but the cup all

of a sudden said hey can you take me to

CVS on the way home like what cup you're

a cup don't tell me that so they view Us

in that sort of objectified lens all of

these dynamics mean that over time in

order for the relationship ship to work

the other person has to entirely

sacrifice themselves and buy into the

reality system of the narcissistic

person but that doesn't all happen

overnight oftentimes at least in an

adult narcissistic relationship whether

it's an intimate relationship or

friendship that early phase is very

idealized and seductive it's called love

bombing but it's really this phase where

they're winning not only winning you

over with gestures and tactics but with

Attunement and atten or seeming

Attunement and attention they pay pay

intense attention to you but you realize

afterwards is some of that intense

attention was them learning things about

you that were going to be turned around

and used against you down the road

that's often a point of Devastation for

a person who says I was vulnerable with

this person I told them things that i'

never told anyone before and then six

months in I was being shamed and

humiliated and and you know it was being

used to sort of destabilize me there is

a point where that love bombing phase

then starts heading into a place where

there's 10 good things one bad thing oh

one bad thing everyone has a bad day

nine Bad Thing nine good things one bad

thing over time though that ratio pretty

much comes to like maybe one to one so

now you're having as much difficult

challenging stuff and then these little

sprinklings of good things happening

that's the origin of the trauma bond

that back and forth good bad hot cold

I'm here I'm not here is where people

will often find themselves falling into

a cycle of justifying blaming themselves

because it was so great it was great for

two or three months so how did it not

become great maybe I'm doing something

so the person will literally it's almost

like you know when you open a bag you

know you're trying to find something in

a bag and you take everything out of the

bag chaotically and it's all in the

airport on the ground and it was that

one little like your headphones that's

what people in narcissistic

relationships do they open the bag that

is themselves and pull everything out

trying to figure out what is wrong with

me why did go from baby where can I take

you to dinner I'll take you anywhere to

what like please stop interrupting me

and you're you're thinking what just

happened and so basically once the

narcissistic person almost feels kind of

confident they've got your supply

whether it's a promise maybe you live

with them maybe you've really committed

into a long-term relationship you said I

love you or whatever that they've got

you where they want you then there're

sort of almost narcissistic folks are

also very novelty seeking they kind of

get bored easily so you being around

from time to time they'll be into you

but then from other times they won't

they do like they do like the idea that

someone's a constant source of supply

and then over time there can be a real

process of discard they just really it

can feel like they just don't care at

all anymore basically what they do is

they no longer fulfill the roles and

responsibilities of what it means to be

in a close relationship which is empathy

compassion kindness Attunement

self-awareness these are the respons

responsibilities we have in a human

relationship and they do not fulfill

them I even hate putting them as

responsibilities I think that they come

automatically for healthy person and

then if you do decide to leave or even

if they decide to leave you start to

enter potentially a cat and- Mouse game

of hoovering where they'll pull you back

see how you're doing sometimes they'll

even figure out oh they're happy now let

me go see if I can SP spin that around a

little bit wow wow I mean those

patterns sound so

painful and they found they sound so

strenuous and stressful and you know

heartbreaking in so many ways why what

are the

excuses that people keep telling

themselves and what

justifications stop us from healing I

mean it go even more foundationally on

that why do we justify right when you

think about one of the most Primal human

needs needs it's attachment we need

other people we are not meant to be solo

acts human beings are tribal we we

evolved in social groups our brains

didn't change that much we still need

our people we need love we do we need

connection and people say what about the

narcissist I said they need it more than

anyone they want all the Supply right so

we need to be together but that

especially in a child that need for

attachment is everything and if a child

has an unattuned parent or even an

abusive parent the child doesn't have

the option to say I think I'm going to

split up with them and see what I'm

going to go on parent hinge and see if I

can find someone new right doesn't work

like that the child has to hold this

parent in esteem which means the child

then needs to devalue themselves what am

I doing wrong how could I be more and

the child really learns how to be

everything that parent wants and needs

to the detriment of their own needs

right this is our back story all exactly

so now let's just jump that to adulthood

right so the child comes up with all

kinds of fantasies but in adulthood they

may be things like everyone has a bad

day relationships are tough I'm no

picnic myself they've been working

really

hard we did have a good weekend they did

tell me I love you I mean I could go on

for the next two hours about all the

justifications I've heard right so the

justifications are not not only

proliferate they come easily and Jay

they're reinforced by the world right

because the world will say oh

relationships are tough maybe they're

just having a bad day right so now what

you're saying is completely in line with

sort of what the prevailing wisdom would

be and you do that enough every time

these really invalidating destabilizing

things that cut to the core of your

identity happen the people who tend to

get more stuck in these relationships

quite frankly are the more empathic

people while narcissistic people are

attracted to people who are whatever

Supply attractive they are to them the

people who get stuck are the people who

are more vulnerable to trauma bonding

and who have more empathy and as a

results are more likely to make those

excuses and justifications right they're

going to be more open to the idea that

there's there's always different ways to

there's another point of view that's

what empathic people do and that's how

it happens but in a trauma bonded

relationship and it's also about

cognitive dissonance right that we don't

like we don't like the tension of

inconsistency within ourselves so we're

always trying to make it fit and how do

we relieve that tension and make it fit

we justify then we can maintain the

status quo and human beings are also

homeostatic creatures we like the stat I

want to keep living here I want to keep

having this routine I don't want to find

a new place to put my toothbrush I don't

want to wake up in a new place even if

you kind of might want to over time many

survivors will say I don't even care if

I wake up in you know in a random place

as long as I'm not waking up here but

how much terribleness had to happen to

the person in that period of time and so

it's a person is just getting sort of

slowly distanced from their true nature

the longer a person is in a narcissistic

relationship the more they literally

have to abandon

themselves that's what I wanted to touch

on actually where you got to is you know

what is the impact of narcissistic abuse

like how because I think often we also

think like oh yeah well you should know

that you know he was a waste of time or

well look what look what she did to you

like you should should be aware like you

know it's it's almost like we assume

that it should logically make sense to

someone that they should be happy that

they're now away from this person but

often with people who've been with

narcissistic people especially

empathetic people they're still saying

well I hope they're okay I hope that

person's okay like I know they're

struggling what is the impact of someone

who's experience narcissistic abuse on a

deep scientific psychological level like

what what is actually going on for them

so what we're seeing pretty consistently

across and now I can say now thousands

of people we've looked at who have

experienced these relationships is

consistently we see a problematic level

of rumination regret anxiety sadness

self- blame

self-doubt a um a sense of

hypervigilance a a social anxiety that

comes from it and I want to put a pin in

that hypervigilant piece because I want

to come back to that in a moment an

interesting sort of mild dissociation

where a person has become dissociated

from their needs their wants and their

true nature because that has been so

consistently invalidated in this

relationship you see problems with sleep

you see you see the neurovative stuff we

see in depression like the changes in

appetite you see problems with

concentration what's interesting though

about survivors of narcissistic abuse is

that some of them may actually develop

clinical depression but most don't and

what I'll see is these are folks when

they are surrounded by healthy supports

therapists friends they're animated

they're Lely they don't seem like a

person who's under that heavy weight of

depression right so it is really the

when the relationship is present it's

taking its toll and it is why so many

survivors of narcissistic abuse are able

to roll up and be terrific parents

despite what's happening you see what

I'm saying because it's not a tra it's

not a mental illness it's a normative

reaction to this but even with that

hypervigilance there's a lot of of talk

about how nice survivors of narcissistic

abuse are we recently did an Instagram

live about this and it was just me sort

of yammering on about something I'd

heard that day I was really struck by

the strength it had in our community

because we talk about empathy empathy

empathy and survivors but one thing I'm

really seeing in my in I'm again so many

clients now at this point and other

people telling their stories is that the

empathy is almost functioning as a bit

of a trauma response like let me be as

kind as possible let me be as good as

possible POS and so it gets very

confusing for you like am I empathic am

I trying to survive and is my empathy

literally like this this trauma is a

survival response to try to like it's

almost like that Fawn response we talk

about that Fawn trauma response where I

am going to be what this this harmful

person needs me to be so I can win them

over and I will be okay right so and

then after that though there's shame why

was I so nice to this person they were

terrible to me like what's wrong with

with me and something I really try to

focus on with survivors is to say this

empathic responsive compassionate part

of you is beautiful we've got to heal

you and not lose that does that make

sense so this isn't an amputation this

is very much about we've got to keep

this here pull the shame off of it but

allow you to become more Discerning wow

and that's the trick in doing this work

with clients and for an individual who's

healing

themselves yeah wow I mean that analogy

you just gave of it's not an

amputation that's really interesting

because I think we would think that when

something's that toxic and abusive you

just want to cut it out get rid of it

move it away but but that's not what

you're saying no and and in fact you

know this is one of the things I really

take umage and I'm frustrated with Tik

Tock and and places where people are

giving Quicky

advices it's almost as though if you

have empathy for the narcissistic person

you're foolish and absolutely not they

are in their fashion there's there's

something not quite right there and

they're not even anywhere close to

addressing it my goal for folks is you

want to have empathy for them and Ian if

you don't want to I get that too for

what you've been through but if that

empathy for you them is something you

want to maintain yes I still need you to

disengage can you disengage from someone

and still empathize with them I believe

absolutely yes wow yeah and that's and

that's a hard balance for the people in

your life that love you to see that

because it can be really really

challenging to see someone you love feel

empathy to someone who's hurt them

really bad correct and it's also even

for yourself and this is where it can

bring up complicated emotions like pity

and guilt right and I try and again the

the work of healing is that pity is that

these mechanisms inside of you that

attend and attune and care about other

human beings are still working which we

want those to always remain

online but that you ensuring that you

pull yourself back from a harmful

situation the world needs you we need

your whole you not the version that you

had to create to remain in this toxic

relationship and that Balancing Act of

retaining empathy when you've been so

hurt by someone that's some of the

hardest work of healing I see people do

it every day and it's really quite

beautiful but a lot of them think have I

become a bad person because I'm I'm so

angry at this person and in fact a big

point bring up in the book and I'm going

to sort of Jump Ahead here is I actually

don't know that forgiveness always has a

place in these relationships and this is

a complicated conversation a lot of

people say forgiveness is all good and

I'm like slow the no no stop the presses

it's absolutely not and there's a whole

body of scientific research that

suggests that repeatedly forgiving a

repeat perpetrator actually harms the

forgiver there's no win in that and so

in what way in it it lowers their

well-being it can result in negative

mood symptoms

I mean of course you keep do you keep

doing this cuz I think forgiveness is is

a very personal decision but it's also

not a necessary one to heal and I think

that the message a lot of people get is

well if you're gon to if you don't

forgive them you're never going to heal

the hell you're not and I'm going to be

very Frank with you Jay there's some

narcissistic people who harmed me

immeasurably I don't forgive them and I

heal just fine it comes back to the you

can't just say the cliches to people and

hope they'll move on and be okay with it

and it can be really hard for that

individual to again either rise or lower

themselves down to either of those like

I know someone who's been through

something recently who's dealing with it

with empathy and I know for them their

friends and family are like how can you

be empathetic to this person and so

they're dealing with it that way or

you'd have the opposite in your case

where you're saying I actually don't

want to be empathetic towards them I

don't want to forgive them and your

family is saying well you should be but

I do I here's where it gets interesting

I empathize with them yes don't forgive

them right okay so you encourage

maintain those two states simultaneously

and I think that again one of the big

exercises in the book and I think it

might be one of the most important ones

is something I do have been doing with

clients for a long time which is the

multiple truths exercise because it's so

easy to say write all the terrible stuff

and I do tell people to record all the

terrible stuff but I said like let's

just be I want you to write everything

you feel for this person and a person

might write this is my mother I hate her

she had a tough backstory she was

terrible to us children she lives alone

I feel sorry for her I wish she would

change I know she won't change this is

literally the stream of Consciousness

for a Survivor you look at that and

right there it's manifest why survivors

are so confused but I absolutely believe

and not everyone does some people say I

have no empathy for this person but I

think it's quite possible and this is

where everyone say no that's not

possible if you empathize with them

you'd forgive them I say I understand

why they are the way they are I even

kind of understand why why they did what

they did what they did was

unforgivable and so I do I wish them no

ill will in fact if good things happen

to them so be it if bad things happen to

them so be it so there's a mild

indifference to it but it wouldn't be a

loss I mean I don't think again there's

so many forms of empathy and empathy is

its own complicated conversation but I

don't think that the not forgiving is a

lack of empathy because forgiveness

really reflects the harm it's done to us

and people say no no no it's a gift for

you too M yeah and I'm not giving them

this gift because I know they would do

it again if I let this person back in

they would do it

again I love that distinction between

empathy and forgiveness really important

to understand another word that a whole

chapter is dedicated to radical

acceptance Define that for us so that we

can understand how that's used because

again even looking at the difference

between empathy and forgiveness it's so

interesting to me just how subtle and

specific healing looks like as opposed

to this almost abstract Journey that's

often painted of healing being like you

move from this stage to here where it's

you know right yeah so so radical

acceptance is it's it's I have to say

there's one there's two probably two

essential ingredients to Healing you're

going to go through radical acceptance

you're going to go through grief and

then it's sort of people are going to go

on different paths but radical

acceptance is the absolute acceptance

that these patterns are not this

person's behavior is not going to change

at least not significantly enough to

make this into healthy relationship that

this Behavior affected you and as long

as you're in the purview of this

Behavior as long as I keep doing this to

you it will keep hurting you because

some people have said to me they say I

radically accepted they're not going to

change how come when they say these

things to me it still bothers me I'm

like because it's hurting you it's still

hurtful just because you understand why

it's coming out of them you you didn't

just become a piece of concrete like you

still have a soul and a heart and a

psyche that can be hurt so some people I

think thought radical acceptance was

like a magic pill that if I take this

the narcissistic person will never

bother me again and so all of that

partic but the key element of it is this

is not going to change and all decisions

from that point forward have to be made

on that basis by definition narcissism

is like I said a maladaptive personality

style but it's also a rigid personality

style the less healthy the personality

the less uh flexible that it is so very

healthy people have extraordinarily

flexible personality so the core of

mental health is flexibility it's almost

like physical health right a person

who's physically healthy has a lot of

flexibility in their muscles and Joints

a mentally healthy person has a lot of

flexibility in their psyche how do we

Define flexibility in our psyche I would

say it's it's an adaptability it is a

self-awareness and awareness of others

it's the ability to engage in novel

problem solving and not get stuck on a

singular solution it's the capacity to

be able to self-regulate and to self

sooth those are some of the things I'd

file into that sort of that flexibility

I'm not just saying it's like sure I'll

go anywhere you want I'm not saying it's

the it's the I'm game for anything but

when things when there's disappointment

there's the capacity to cope with it

it's a lot of coping a lot of resilience

is in that flexibility piece right that

is the core of Health I have worked with

people who have survived severe trauma

it's I and but the the ones who really

are standing in a different it's that

flexibility right and you think about it

if a tree is flexible it'll Bend With

the Wind if it's not it's going to snap

if the wind is too hard that would

really be the best sort of an analogy so

narcissism is this sort of maladaptive

rigid style there's very little

self-reflective capacity for the

narcissistic person very little

self-awareness for the narcissistic

person and very little awareness of the

people around them there is little

motivation to change most grandiose

narcissists subject objectively think of

themselves as great people if you ask

them they'll say I'm a great guy like

I'll help anyone I'll do anything for

anyone I'm I'm just a cool person they

believe it having just cheated on their

girlfriend two nights before that

they're able to maintain what almost

feels like a delusional self schema

those things are not amenable to change

and and again the nice thing about being

an old lady is you I've been doing this

so long that I've seen cases 15 20 years

and when I tell you that there's been

some interesting things they've learned

abouts in some cases they had

co-occurring conditions addiction is a

great example the addiction is managed

like they've been sober for many years

but that core personality they are

definitely not fit for an intimate

relationship at least not one where

someone's not going to get hurt so that

radical acceptance of the all of

it that moment is the penny drop moment

because now people see the path forward

very different this is no longer once

the kids grow up it's going to get

easier this is no no longer when he gets

the promotion things are going to get

better this is no longer when the

grandkids come my parents is going to

calm down this is this is it and I've

sat with many clients and said I'm going

to put something to you and I'm going to

say if I were to tell you this is it

this is never going to change how would

that affect the decisions you make most

clients will say can I tell you next

week because that's a lot to take in but

the challenge with radical acceptance

Jay is that I wish I could say it's h

and the light comes in the window you

know couple things is that radical

acceptance doesn't mean you're signing

off on this it doesn't mean you're

giving into it doesn't mean you're

agreeing with it it's not that it is

you're seeing it absolutely and

painfully clearly you know what happens

after you painfully and radically see

something the grief comes over you like

a tsunami because this is your mom the

mom you always thought one day we're

going to have the moment or your dad

where you're like one day they're going

to get me or the part partner we're like

we are going to grow old together and

it's going to be okay you're giving up a

narrative you're giving up a hope you're

giving up a life story you're giving up

things you held on to since you were a

child that's Devastation and I tell

folks now we're going to hold on tight

because grief is the most human of

experiences there's it's one of other

than life other than being born and

dying I don't know of any other

Universal Human Experience other than

grief all human beings lose

right we lose something or someone and

we all have a very similar experience

internally we we we grief and that's why

we have rituals right but ultimately we

go through a period of grief and I think

in this Modern Age we think we're better

than grief we think we can Soldier

through oh I can make my grief go like

this nobody gets to make their grief go

quicker right it grief is grief and that

grief actually leads People Jay to say

okay this feels terrible maybe I should

go back back into the relationship maybe

I made a mistake maybe I'm not seeing

this clearly maybe I'm the problem maybe

I'm the narcissist and so the holding on

during the

grief understanding what's happening

within you that the loss isn't just I'm

not talking to my partner anymore or I'm

distanced from my mother or I'm getting

a divorce but the grief is how much of

yourself you lost in this relationship

when people have to dive into that some

they say I'm kind of glad they're gone

but oh what what just happened to me

yeah yeah it's the grief of the life you

once had the thought you going to have

you thought you could have the grief of

the loss of the person that you lost

while you dissolved into this

relationship and and I've seen that from

the people I know not people I would say

these are people that I know in my life

but I've seen just that dissolving of

one's identity like completely clueless

even if they've disengaged to I don't

know who I am anymore and and I don't

know what to do anymore and I don't know

whether I was confident or whether I was

bubbly or whether I was extrovert or

introvert like I just don't know yep and

what's the first step when you're

feeling I don't know what where do you

where's where's the starting point I

tell folks we're taking you back to

basics and it's little things like I'll

say three times a day set a little timer

if you want I want you to just when that

little notification comes up want you to

stop and say how do I feel right now am

I cold am I hot am I hungry am I thirsty

like physiological functions figure out

where you want your thermostat and move

it and see like oh I I I'm feeling 60 68

this is nice people don't even know that

I'll say what do you want on your pizza

you'd be amazed how many people are

flumix by that question they say well he

always wanted what do you want on your

pizza and they'll say and they'll catch

themselves this isn't meant to be silly

this is how even these these sort of

loow hanging questions become a place

where a person is now being able to

recreate a subjective Focus they were

told for years you can't be hungry you

just ate you can't be cold I'm warm

you're not tired you got plenty of sleep

that's what they were told so when

that's done to you not just once but

hundreds if not thousands of times just

that initial process and part of what I

write about in the book is just you keep

reorienting to yourself and you ask

yourself a few times a day like what's

the

I'm actually feeling a little bit cold

and that's okay even if everyone else

has a bathing suit on it's okay wow it's

just bringing that person back into

their body into their body because

that's our most physical tangible way of

knowing how we feel and because we've

gone so far away from understanding how

we feel that's going to be the easiest

way same with what do you want in your

pizza it sounds silly but it's not it's

well let's get these basic decisions

right let's get these really amateur

decisions right rather than thinking who

am I what is the goal of my life like

but you work up to that and when you ask

people who am I like I don't know I'll

say what what do you stand for tell me

something that's important to you and

they will really say no I've never

thought in these levels I mean your

focus for so many people's meaning and

purpose right to me that's when we're

getting into the latter stages of really

this you know this individuation and

this autonomy of what is Meaningful to

you what is purposeful I remember a

client once saying to me we're talking

about meaning of purpose and she said

are you kidding me what's meaningful and

purposeful she said I just want to get

to a day where I don't think about them

and I said great then that's that's

where it is right now and over time

we're going to build on that but that

can feel very Out Of Reach for people

like in fact in my healing program this

month it's it's going to be meaning and

purpose month and even I as I construct

that curriculum I'm realizing like I

want I a lot of the usual conversation

about meaning and purpose I'm almost

having to have the conversation point

you know point two of what it means when

you're

going through this and someone who's a

survivor of narcissistic abuse but then

it's also the willingness to turn to

trusted others I'm going to give you a

silly example of something that happened

today I had a very problematic call

today right with someone and I had to

put the call on speaker because someone

was helping me with something in the

house and I had to be I she was doing

her work quietly but it wasn't a

confidential call it was it was a

business thing and the call went

terribly the person was very

disrespectful very dismissive and I've

been through narcissistic abuse in many

ways and shapes and forms in my life so

my first tendency was am I being too

sensitive am I being too demanding am I

being ridiculous that's what I was

thinking and at one point the lady who

was help helping me out she kind of

looked at me rolled her eyes I rolled my

eyes and she looked back at me and she

said yeah and I got off the phone and

the person who was helping with

something else she had nothing to do

with this call and I closed my eyes and

the person said the person in the room

with me said yeesh that was absolutely

ridiculous and I looked at her and I

said say more and she said I can't

believe how dismissive that person was

she didn't even do the basic and Jay I

felt whole because my inner experience

which I still doubt after all these

years and I've come a long way but my

inner experience this person outside of

me who I know cares about me said it

wasn't okay how she talked to you and

each time that happens we have a micro

adjustment of that was on point I I read

that situation correctly and then I was

emboldened to make a stronger decision

and decide not to go into to do what

this person was asking me to do was like

a speaking thing and I'm like no I don't

want to do that but that other person's

presence yeah having that safe space and

this is so a big part of the healing

then becomes building up safe validating

anti-gas lights as I call them in your

life people who see you and say that

wasn't okay or are you okay or that was

disrespectful they did not speak nicely

to you whatever it is most survivors are

so used to being spoken to badly they're

like well business as usual but to have

that this is why people go into therapy

and so then I was able to take the much

Bolder leap of no I'm actually going to

end up going to the other meeting but

thanks I don't know that I would have

had that kind of Courage this is what

healing is you build up those people

even if it's one or two people giving

yourself permission

to to put I call it the 9010 inversion

most of us put 90% of ourselves into our

most toxic relationships and 10% into

the giving reciprocal loving ones that

run easily I said flip the math I want

90% into those good relationships and

phone it into the toxic ones yeah that's

so true and and it's it's interesting

because I think that kind of answers the

next question I was going to ask but

this idea of I think when someone's

going through that healing Journey

they're almost oscillating between like

well to I know myself again oh I don't

know who I am anymore I feel like I know

what I want on pizza oh my gosh I have

no idea you know so I feel like they go

through this what I I think that partly

answers that you need these people in

your life who are constantly reminding

you and as you said anti-gas lighting

you what else can someone do when

they're kind of oscillating between that

I think I'm making progress I'm not sure

anymore I think I'm making progress I'm

lost again how do you what do you find

in that period embrace the oscillation

right because it is it's calibration

right you're you're sort of it's like a

child wobbly on their feet when they're

learning to walk you're you're learning

this again and so that wobbliness is you

it's the it's their internalized voice

and your individuated self kind of

having a little bit of an argument and

sort of view that indiv that part of you

that's trying to individuate like say

you got this and that's an old voice and

that old we can just sort of say you

know you're you're actually not welcome

here anymore like you could just step

out thank you and the but it's the

individuated voice and the internalized

the narcissistic internalized or the

gaslighted internalized voice and

they're they're going they're still

fighting it out and we feel as though am

I aren't I just like today anyone

watching that call I mean but said this

was not okay and the the person it was

almost like the emperor not wearing any

clothes right that this person was

saying this Emperor is naked go away

Romany go away and so I think that that

initially we need those voices a lot

more and there'll still be times when we

we will T because I think there's

certain trigger situations that kind of

remain pretty consistent for survivors

for a long long time we do hold it

internally and we were told too Jay many

survivors are told they're up if they

want to achieve a goal do you really

think you're going to pull that off like

I think you're reaching a little too

high so they were minimized and

trivialized for wanting to do something

that they still hear that inner voice of

don't be ridiculous you're never going

to be able to do that and they make that

voice their own instead of trying to

learn like that kind of that was an

unwanted visitor so let's see if you can

sort of treat it that way and we can

even think about if you look at trauma

Theory we talk about the protector

persecutor kind of a model that the

persecuting voice in a strange way is

doing this really messed up way of

keeping you safe because it's telling

you like in essence it it's the that

persecuting voice is that voice is

telling you you're going to fail so you

don't try and when you were in the

narcissistic relationship and you failed

they would humiliate and shame you right

or tell you it was going to happen but

if you can say that okay I see what

you're trying to do persecuting Bo I'll

be fine if this doesn't go well because

it'll be on my terms and if you really

have done radical acceptance even when

the narcissistic person rolls their eyes

and says oh big surprise you have to

keep coming back to this is a them thing

this is not a me thing not saying it

doesn't hurt this is a carousel that

really takes a toll on people but it can

be done but that oscillation starts to

become a little less oscillate the more

people have these validating voices

people build up what we call efficacy

the the idea that they're able to do

something right so the first time we

able we're able to do something

successfully from make a cake or change

the oil in our car uh use a drill and

put something in the wall the that what

it does to the psyche is remarkable so I

tell survivors keep keep trying new

things because the more efficacy you

build that also helps Foster

individuation so I'm like grab the drill

if you put a few holes in the wall but

the picture goes up you're going to feel

really good about the picture going up

try to make the difficult sule you may

burn a few but when it's made great I

did try to do this with bread I still

have not successfully raised a loaf of

bread so it's my last neurotic wound but

I think that when we find some people

learn and other people do all kinds of

interesting things I see like some folks

I've worked with learned languages and

they learned how to play a musical

instrument and but they'll say this

feels so good because back in the day I

would have been made fun of for this

those who are able to get out will say

it's so interesting to do this and that

confidence starts jumping into other

areas of their life yeah I mean it's

really a rehabilitation of right self

identity self-worth self-confidence self

acceptance you're almost teaching

yourself to do things again in order to

feel whole right absolutely but you know

what you it's interesting see use

rebuild for a lot of people it's a build

because if this happened to them in

childhood their individuated identity

never got to form at all wow so this is

a build yeah it's a build it's from

scratch Dr Romy this is you know so

informative I I'm thinking of so many

people right now who I know are going to

benefit from our conversation today

because it's almost like I feel like the

more and more I'm speaking to people the

more and more I hear about people de

with this in their lives but I want to

ask you one last question and it's this

idea of can going back to that empathy

point that forgiveness point for the

person who's healing from the

narcissistic person for them can the

narcissistic person ever

heal so it's a listen I I do believe in

human potentiality I'm I'm probably

never going to bet on the psychopathic

or narcissistic horse in the race but

might might they at least come in the

top five maybe and what I mean by that

is part of this is an understanding the

origins of narcissism right some

narcissistic folks their personality

development was very much shaped by

adversity trauma neglect loss chaos

attachment moons

right that

subgroup if they are willing humbly to

engage into the work of growth they do

excellent trauma informed worth work

with a with a

therapist and then get beyond the trauma

informed work and are able to reflect on

how they they're able to create that

schema of how they're they affect others

right to pull it's almost like you're

pulling away um the you're pulling open

Gates and say there's people out there

see this thing you're doing they're

being affected and it it's really

opening the schema out of how they're

desperately trying to protect themselves

to how other people are getting hurt and

I have it's interesting I I work with a

narcissistic client once for many many

years and I I I sort of cut back my

practice and I've had one or two of them

Reach back like oh can I work with you

I'm like you know I've really kind of

shut up shot but they you know what they

said though one one in particular said I

am I'm screaming at my girlfriend and I

know it's not okay now he's still

screaming at her not so good but he does

know he's like I know it's not okay and

she may leave me and I probably deserve

it I and he's like you taught me that

wow he's still screaming

on that part but humility is such a big

part of this right and and the I

honestly think the antidote to

narcissism is humility and humility

means we're not perfect we have flaws

and it and we are and it's not all a

fantasy and that we're and honestly the

hardest thing for a narcissistic person

to accept is that they're ordinary we

you're ordinary I'm ordinary everyone in

this room is ordinary and we're

simultaneously special but we're just

people right and so if that for them not

to be the most special person means

removing the camp off the volcano which

is terrifying for them in if in a way

they're almost terrified by their own

rage you need one very skilled therapist

to guide someone through that Journey

you know and so and they have to keep

showing up and for about almost 60 to

70% of narcissistic folks drop out of

therapy prematurely and it usually

happens when the rubber meets the road

and the work starts getting really

vulnerable that's when I've lost clients

and so we have to go very very gently

into that forest with them and but

unfortunately if we go too gently and we

never get there then we're sort of doing

a lot of Naval gazing so it's just

finding that kind of balance and and and

you know they can do a lot of spiritual

bypassing that kind of stuff like you

you can't just you can't aphorism your

way through this you're G to have to do

this painful work face up to that

vulnerability that's I I've seen some

narcissistic people make a little bit of

progress but the way I put it is this

There's Hope for them to make some

progress but the harm they've usually

done to another person usually it's not

super it's not really that fixable and

so many people will say and a fear of a

lot of people in narcissistic

relationships is what if they change for

the next person they're not going to

change for the next person right what if

they what if it all changes overnight

this is not an overnight this is years

and years years and years of committed

work to this like I said I've seen micro

changes and not enough to have probably

consistently affected other people's

relationships and they still personality

is like a rubber band we can pull it out

so all of a sudden Romany the introvert

could become Romney the extrovert for

one night only and then when we get home

the rubber band will go back to its side

the narcissistic person on a good day

with a good therapist might get

stretched out a little bit seem a little

bit more tuned aware do some empathic

adjacent things but as soon as the first

time stress comes into the picture

rubber band goes back to its original

size yeah that's what I was going to ask

you as as the last question that came

from that was what would you say to

someone who says I'll wait for them to

change you then you're waiting for a bus

that's never going to come you're

waiting for a submarine to show up at a

bus stop basically and and in the

process it's not even just as that may

not come you will lose yourself in the

process and to me that sort of Soul

death that sort of loss of self is it's

it's just not okay and and listen you

and I both know this cultur we both come

from a culture where remaining in a

marriage no matter what the conditions

are is very much a sort of a symptom of

the culture and this is where I've

probably seen it most pointedly of

people who really some folks would find

a way whether through their spirituality

or other relationships with their

children or others in their Community to

sort of create a meaningful space

outside of that problem atic

relationship but others it was like

watching a fruit die on the vine and

it's to me one of the most horrific

things to witness is the potential of a

human being being lost to this to this

kind of invalidation and I shudder to

think how much potential creative

potential um knowledge wisdom that

people have held back because it

invalidated this book is a love story to

every Survivor and saying to them please

bring we need you we we need all of your

gifts in this world because you have so

many listen the fact that you endured

this relationship is already a gift but

so all the stuff you kept behind the

gate open those Gates so we can see all

this beautiful stuff that you could

bring into the world Dr Romany thank you

so much the book is called it's not you

identifying and healing from

narcissistic people it's available right

now go and grab your copy today we have

just touched on the tip of the iceberg

of the insights and the knowledge that's

within this book please go grab your

copy and if you don't already follow Dr

Rony on Instagram and YouTube make sure

you go and subscribe and follow and I

want to see what resonates with you from

this conversation so tag both of us I'd

love to see if you've been affected by

any of this if you know a friend or

family members benefiting from the book

I'd love to see your takeaways and Dr

Ramy thank you so much again for this

very thoughtful very very insightful

conversation and I love your

step-by-step approach and also the

ability to Define and clarify things so

well for us so I always feel better

prepared to talk to people even who may

mention it to me friends family members

whatever may happen and kind of guide

them in the right direction towards a

therapist or the support that they need

so thank you so much thank you Jay thank

you yeah thank you if you love this

episode you'll enjoy my interview with

Dr Julie Smith on unblocking negative

emotions and how to embrace difficult

feelings you've just got to be motivated

every day and if you're not then what

are you doing and and actually humans

don't work that way motivation you have

to treat it like any other emotion some

days it will be there some days it won't