Truth in Telecoms, Robert Vis Part 1

Summary

In this episode of 'Truth in Telecoms,' the host engages in a candid conversation with Johnny, the 'viz,' discussing his unique views on various topics and his journey in the telecom industry. They delve into the evolution of Bird, reflecting on the company's strategic shift from SMS to CRM, prompted by market changes and the need for innovation. The discussion also touches on the challenges faced by companies like Twilio and CSE, the impact of fraud and corruption in the industry, and the importance of adapting to technological advancements. The conversation is filled with humor and insights, offering a behind-the-scenes look at the telecom world.

Takeaways

• 😀 The host expresses admiration for 'the viz', appreciating his unique views on various topics and his rarity in the industry.
• 💬 The conversation touches on the importance of having a strong online presence and the influence of social media, as 'the viz' is followed for his opinions on platforms like X.
• 🎤 There's a humorous exchange about nicknames, with 'the viz' being a local nickname that reflects the culture of giving nicknames in certain regions.
• 📈 The discussion highlights the significant market capitalization loss in the telecom industry, with companies like Twilio, Cinch, Bandwidth, and Ring experiencing declines.
• 🚀 The guest, Robert, is praised for his company's successful transition from SMS to CRM, escaping the downfall of the SMS market at the right time.
• 🤝 There's a mention of past business dealings and the strategic importance of humor and relationships in the industry, as well as the impact of one individual, Allan, on significant industry events.
• 📱 The conversation delves into the evolution of the telecom industry, with a focus on the shift from APIs to CRMs and the need for an abstraction layer for brands.
• 💰 The script criticizes certain industry practices, such as prepayments to carriers and the funding of corruption in the gateway business, which is seen as detrimental to the industry's health.
• 🌐 Robert discusses the global ambitions of his company and the necessity to move beyond SMS to remain competitive and innovative in the changing landscape of telecommunications.
• 📉 The script reflects on the decline of the SMS market and how it was affected by factors like fraud, the desire for cheaper prices by brands, and the carriers' strategies, leading to a loss of interest from investors.

Q & A

What does the speaker admire about 'the viz'?

The speaker admires 'the viz' for his unique views on various topics such as climate, free speech, Europe, and more. He also appreciates that 'the viz' is not afraid to voice his opinions, even if they put him in the minority.

Why did Allan get a haircut?

Allan got a haircut because 'the viz' showed up, as mentioned by the speaker, implying that 'the viz' has an influence or a level of respect that prompted Allan to make a change in his appearance.

What is the significance of the name 'the viz'?

The name 'the viz' is a nickname that originates from the speaker's local culture where everyone has a nickname. It is not something that was created but is a common practice in the area he is from, reflecting old European traditions.

Why does the speaker believe that CRM is becoming more important in the telecom industry?

The speaker believes that CRM is becoming more important because APIs are becoming less important as businesses prefer to focus on their core business rather than managing multiple APIs. CRM provides an abstraction layer that simplifies the complexity for brands.

What does the speaker think about the state of the SMS industry?

The speaker thinks the SMS industry has seen better days. He mentions that it has become less fun due to increased fraud, carriers raising prices, and brands wanting lower prices, leading to a less profitable and more corrupt industry.

Why did the speaker decide to transition his business away from SMS?

The speaker decided to transition his business away from SMS because of the industry's shift towards multiple channels and the need for an abstraction layer like CRM. He also saw the writing on the wall with the decline in SMS's importance and the corruption within the industry.

What does the speaker think about the role of fraud in the telecom industry?

The speaker believes that fraud has been detrimental to the telecom industry, as it has led to an unsustainable business model where carriers raise prices, while brands demand lower costs, creating a corrupt ecosystem.

Why does the speaker consider the industry's move towards CRM a positive development?

The speaker sees the move towards CRM as positive because it allows for a more customer-centric approach, providing brands with a single point of contact for multiple communication channels, which simplifies their operations and aligns with their core business focus.

What is the speaker's opinion on the role of customer behavior in shaping the telecom industry?

The speaker believes that customer behavior has been a significant factor in shaping the telecom industry, as they are demanding more sophisticated solutions that go beyond traditional SMS, pushing the industry towards more integrated and multi-channel communication platforms.

Why does the speaker mention the importance of abstraction layers in the telecom industry?

The speaker mentions the importance of abstraction layers because they allow businesses to focus on their core operations without getting bogged down in the technical complexities of managing multiple communication channels and APIs.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Welcoming Remarks and Industry Insights

The speaker warmly welcomes the audience to 'Truth in Telecoms' and expresses gratitude for the guest, 'the viz', who is known for his unique and bold opinions on various topics like climate, free speech, and Europe. The speaker admires the guest's views and aligns with them on many issues. There's a light-hearted moment about Allan getting a haircut, and the conversation shifts to discussing the evolution of the telecom industry, specifically mentioning the progress of 'Bird' and how it has moved from being associated with the criminal SMS industry to being recognized by major players. The speaker also humorously addresses the competitive nature of the industry, referring to a 'sexiest man alive' contest and the camaraderie among industry professionals.

05:00

📱 Telecom History and Legal Battles

The discussion delves into the history of the telecom industry, with the speaker recounting his experience with Iris Wireless and the strategic move of selling to two German entities. There's a mention of a podcast with significant viewership and the impact of exposing illegal business practices that led to the firing of a notable industry figure. The speaker also touches on his interactions with various industry players, including those from CSE and John Wick, and shares anecdotes about legal battles, highlighting the complexities and the personalities involved in the telecom sector.

10:01

🚀 Transition from SMS to CRM and Market Dynamics

The speaker reflects on the transition from SMS to CRM, triggered by changes in the market and customer behavior. He notes the rise of fraud in the industry, the desire for brands to seek the lowest prices, and carriers to maximize their profits, which led to an unsustainable business model. The conversation also covers the shift towards multi-channel solutions and the decline in the importance of APIs as businesses sought to focus on their core competencies. The speaker observes the loss of market capitalization in the industry and credits the move away from SMS as a timely decision, aligning with the changing landscape.

15:02

💸 Corruption, Market Saturation, and Strategic Shifts

This section discusses the corruption within the industry, particularly in the firewall sector, and how it has impacted the market. The speaker is critical of practices that involve money laundering and the negative impact on the SMS pricing. He also addresses the saturation of the market and the need for companies to innovate and compete on a global scale. The speaker shares his experience with the German company he sold his assets to and their struggles in the market, emphasizing the importance of strategic business decisions and the avoidance of unethical practices.

20:02

🌐 Global Expansion, Market Fragmentation, and the SMS Industry's Future

The speaker compares his entrepreneurial journey with that of Jeff Lawson, the founder of Twilio, highlighting the different paths they took due to market conditions and regional differences. He discusses the challenges of global expansion, the fragmentation of the European and APAC markets, and the necessity of building an abstraction layer to operate effectively. The conversation also covers the low margins in the SMS business and the strategic decisions that needed to be made to stay competitive. The speaker concludes by emphasizing the need for innovation and adaptation in the face of an evolving industry.

25:03

📉 The Downfall of High-Valued Companies and the Shift to SaaS

In the final paragraph, the speaker discusses the downfall of high-valued telecom companies and the shift towards SaaS as a business model. He critiques Twilio's business practices and the broader industry's transition from consumer messaging to application messaging. The speaker also reflects on the industry's past, including the role of P2P messaging and the changes in carrier practices that affected the business models of companies like Twilio. The conversation ends with a call to read more about the campaign registry, indicating a deeper dive into the industry's evolution.

Keywords

💡Truth in Telecoms

This is the name of the show where the conversation is taking place, suggesting a focus on honest and transparent discussions about the telecommunications industry. It is the context in which the entire dialogue unfolds, with participants discussing various aspects of the telecom sector.

💡Viz

In the script, 'Viz' appears to be a nickname for a person who is highly respected by the speaker for his unique views and opinions on various topics. It is used to denote someone who is insightful and influential within the industry, as the speaker mentions following 'Viz' on a platform where he shares his perspectives.

💡Bird

Bird is mentioned as a company that has made significant progress, transitioning from a focus on SMS to engaging with larger players in the industry. It is used as an example of a successful pivot in business strategy, which is a central theme in the discussion about adapting to changes in the telecom industry.

💡CRM (Customer Relationship Management)

CRM is discussed as a transition point for the company Bird, moving from a focus on SMS to broader customer relationship management solutions. It represents a shift towards more integrated and comprehensive services that are increasingly important in the telecom and technology sectors.

💡Fraud

Fraud is mentioned as a significant issue that has impacted the SMS industry, leading to increased costs and a negative impact on the integrity of the sector. It is used as an example of the challenges that the industry faces and how these can affect business models and strategies.

💡API (Application Programming Interface)

APIs are discussed as becoming less important over time, with businesses needing to focus on their core activities rather than building on top of numerous APIs. This reflects a broader trend in technology where the initial excitement around APIs has given way to a more strategic and selective use of these tools.

💡Market Cap

Market cap refers to the total market capitalization of companies in the telecom industry, which has been significantly reduced due to various factors discussed in the script. It is used to illustrate the financial impact of changes in the industry and the challenges faced by companies operating within it.

💡SMS (Short Message Service)

SMS is the central focus of the discussion, with the script exploring its evolution from a high-margin business to a low-margin, commoditized service. The decline in SMS profitability is tied to various factors, including fraud, changing customer behavior, and the rise of alternative communication channels.

💡Wall Street

Wall Street is mentioned in the context of the financial performance of companies in the telecom industry, particularly those focused on SMS. It is used to highlight the disconnect between the industry's perception of its value and the market's actual valuation of these companies.

💡Globalization

Globalization is discussed as a key strategy for the company Bird, emphasizing the need to operate on a global scale to be successful in the competitive telecom industry. It is used to illustrate the importance of international expansion and the challenges of navigating different markets and regulations.

💡Innovation

Innovation is implied as a necessary approach for companies in the telecom industry to stay relevant and competitive. The discussion suggests that companies must be willing to disrupt their own business models and embrace new technologies and strategies to succeed in a rapidly changing market.

Highlights

Introduction of the podcast and acknowledgment of the guest, 'the viz', for his unique views on various topics.

Discussion on the importance of having one's own opinion and the rarity of such individuals in the industry.

Mention of the guest's influence on Allan's decision to get a haircut, highlighting the guest's impact.

The guest's transition from being known as 'fish' to 'the viz', reflecting a change in reputation and identity.

A humorous take on the prevalence of nicknames in certain regions, particularly in the guest's hometown.

Praise for the guest's business acumen, particularly in the area of SMS and CRM.

Reflection on the guest's past business moves and the strategic sale of assets to German investors.

Discussion of the competitive landscape in the telecom industry and the various players involved.

Anecdote about the guest's involvement in the industry and the humorous side of business dealings.

Mention of the significance of Jean Lou, the founder of Haywire, and his impact on the industry.

Analysis of the decline in market capitalization for companies in the telecom space and the reasons behind it.

The guest's perspective on the changing dynamics of the telecom industry, including the rise of fraud and its impact.

Insight into the guest's strategic decision to move away from SMS and towards CRM solutions.

Discussion on the importance of customer behavior and how it influenced the guest's business decisions.

The guest's commentary on the state of the SMS industry and the shift towards multi-channel communication.

Critique of the industry's reliance on APIs and the shift towards more abstracted solutions like CRM.

Final thoughts on the future of the telecom industry and the guest's role in shaping it.

Transcripts

excellent welcome to truth in telecoms

I'm not sure whether we're doing a

beauty contest on this but Johnny how

are you well well first of all you know

I want to thank the viz which I knew he

would show up because he's a viz he's

the only guy in this industry there's

very few guys on his level of balls I

mean if you have if you have a chance to

follow him on X which not a lot of

people do because not really a lot of

people follow him on X he has his own

opinion on things and I I quite follow

him there and he he he has really unique

view on life and on whether it be

climate or whether it be free speech or

whether it be Europe or whether it be a

lot of things I I find him I I I uh I

admire his views and and agree

unfortunately for uh myself with him in

a lot of ways because we're we're kind

of like in the [ __ ] minority on a lot

of things uh so I want to thank the viz

um and and yes look Allan just got a

haircut because the viz showed up I as

everybody knows I've been screaming to

Allan to get a haircut for months he

gets a haircut and look how handsome he

is so now he gets thrown in to the

sexiest man alive uh sexiest man and SMS

contest um so uh yeah I mean so look

this thank you so much for for uh

accepting my bait thank you thank you

thank you for my new nickname yeah what

the viz yeah you know you know F

actually means fish so um it's it's been

uh I mean it's been like how long have I

not been in school but like forever

like 25 years or something but 25 years

ago uh people uh yeah people in school

used to call me fish fish the fish they

called you the fish yeah but keep keep

it keep it the viz don't change the fish

I hate it the viz is AOL look I grew up

literally 10 miles from where that

orange guy is running for president here

lives and people don't understand where

I'm from everybody has a nickname it's

just it's like the Queens Long Island Bo

and you don't have a real you just have

a nickname so it's not something that he

created it's just something that if you

come to this neck of the woods people

just have uh nicknames it's a lot of

Italian um old European um just just a a

mix and it's just a a nickname as the

thing but the viz is like I mean how can

not how can you not be the viz I mean

it's like it's like right there in front

of you it's like too easy but uh I want

to dive into it Robert and and the first

thing I want to do is I want to talk

about how uh you know shocking some of

your progression progressing that as far

as where you've taken Bird right now so

you know I noticed something when I

posted yesterday an old friend of mine

Jean Lou Who founded Haywire many years

ago I don't know if you know Jean he's

at

Salesforce I don't know Jean but I know

Haywire okay so Jean founded Haywire my

partner Rick Joyce who was my partner at

TCR acquisition he was also the attorney

at um Venable he was Jean's lawyer he's

also the former Chief Council head of

cyber for the US Coast Guard because we

were involved in that whole campaign

registry in Saturday he used to

represent him and John he would just

tell me how brilliant Jean was and then

I met Jean at the ctia conferences that

we had when I when I had one of the

three hubs so I would be sitting there

as Iris which was me and one carrier and

then I'd have coverse and I'd have sap

and I'd have the mobile operators and

you'd have you'd have you know Doug

Gardner from twio and you'd have the

guys from zip Whip and it'd all be a lot

of fighting and I got very friendly with

Jean but jean went to to Salesforce Jean

had a lot Jean had a lot of patents too

like thoron but he had patents that he

actually monetized and he sold this

company to Salesforce and became the

principal architect of mobile so I still

keep in touch with Jean and he popped

up and he doesn't pop up at all but he

popped up when bird came up and CRM so

I'm saying to myself well Jean's got to

be maybe concerned because without Jean

Salesforce does not go to mobile he he

is he was the smartest guy in our

industry from a technical standpoint and

I'm going back a decade you know what I

mean so I think you're on you're on

Jean's radar So you you're gone from

like the criminals in SMS to the big

boys

so congratulations I mean you know you

guys don't get enough credit for being

so funny it's just like you know it's I

I read all your posts and I'm like I

don't know sometimes whether they're

like or not because I start fighting

with everybody in the industry if I like

too much but

like I still need I still need some of

them you know like it's not over yet but

um uh but at the but at the same time

it's freaking hilarious you know we

gotta laugh Alan and I have been around

I'm 58 I've been around you seen too

much and if you don't laugh I mean

what's the point of life you know if you

don't find humor I mean I'm the guy in

the industry I took an asset called Iris

Wireless and suit cerse didn't really

know the value of it but obviously as we

know twio paid 750 million for a

minority state in cers to get the same

access that I had and I'm the dumbest

guy in the world I use it to restructure

these two Germans in Germany who by the

way I'm like the only guy in the world I

I gotta find the two dumbest people in

Germany I mean Germans are so smart

altogether I find the only two morons uh

in the whole country uh it's it's quite

amazing but we got to have fun I have

fun a lot more than Allan uh look we've

had some kind of audiences I mean we did

your podcast you got 5,000 views which

doesn't sound like a lot but it's a lot

and you got that when we were banned

yeah but we were doing podcast with 70

plus thousand views when Allan got Jeff

Lawson fired from twio that was Allan by

the way just so you know he got Allen

fired when he exposed the fact that the

minority Stak he bought in twio in cerse

was kind of illegal because you don't

buy a minority stake in a company with

public shareholders money uh when

there's another $2 billion doar and debt

behind it and nothing In fairness I like

cerse though you know why I like coverse

I like look I love CSE John Wick I just

did a whole podcast on John Wick go read

watch my podcast on John Wick I fought

cers I I had them beat they settled with

me I wasn't stupid enough to go all the

way to trial with them because they're

owned by the carel group and tinch found

out the hard way tinch got pass a motion

to dismiss just so you know how they

lost these idiots and then they went to

curse I literally went to got to the

access to the chairman of uh Carlile

literally the CEO of carile who a friend

of mine and said go settle this they fly

to Germany they try to settle with the

Germans because thoron had them in court

um and the Germans asking for $100

million in new agreements so they fly

back and all of a sudden tinch finds out

what America is all about and the judge

that ruled in their favor oh retired and

they nominated a magistrate Church in

Tampa and he overruled and then tinch

went from winning to losing and spending

N9 million dollars doing it because they

thought they could do whatever they want

here and you really can't but C look you

have to like cin you don't have a

choice well what's your choice you you

you you know and you're look John Wick

go welome my podcast on John Wick I mean

I go back with John Wick he's a

gentleman I nobody could talk about him

the way I talk about

him why do you like C of us I I you know

I don't um so uh I'm we're less close to

them than you might think but like you

know you know what I think it is a lot

of these companies are made you know

there's there's management there's

owners um and there's a lot to be said

for them and honestly I don't I I'm not

like trying to chicken out I honestly do

not know enough about it to to to Jud to

judge there but there are some really

good people at cerse so when I say I

like them I would argue the folks that

we deal with on the account management

side and the the the the Sales

Management side and the procurement side

and the routing side and you know I I

always hear from the team how well they

work with them so that's more what I

mean with there's a there's a new

there's a new breed at cerse so going

back a decade when they tried to [ __ ]

me being the third asset and look I just

restructured a company I couldn't spell

text messaging Robert I I come from the

coin C industry excuse my language and I

restructured this company wiped out $30

m in debt and then they had this crazy

CEO who decided like oh no I'm not gonna

give you a new agreements like what do

you mean they're Auto renewed the last

14 years you have to you know uh and

then I restructured it and and took him

on a court nobody thought I would beat

him and I went and found Rick Joyce and

we beat him um I was just a [ __ ] and

didn't really know the value it's funny

after I sold the company to to the

Germans I sold my assets actually I get

in touch twio gets in touch with me and

tells me well we want to buy it I'm like

well you can't you got to go to Germany

they flew to Germany uh T twio put a

deal on the table for the Germans that

would have been worth 800 million doron

turned it

down now you could buy Thorston for the

for for the amount of money that Jeff

Lawson spends at his hair

products right see this is what I mean

you but we have 20,000 but there's

20,000 other people that laugh at us

just the ones that don't laugh at us or

the ones that don't like us which are

the kind of the criminals and the Shady

basses that are running around so we

just call stuff out for what it is

number one we don't care number two

everybody's a [ __ ] nobody's really

dangerous oh they're dangerous no

they're not they're SMS people what

dangerous so they they may pay some

people off in different countries how do

that make them dangerous they may run

artificially inflated traffic and enjoy

when people get spammed but that doesn't

make him dangerous although thoron trap

has legitimately dangerous and I'll get

to a story about him later but yeah look

CSE is really good people John Wick we

fought toe-to-toe we're still friends to

this day although he hides from me now

uh we've been friendly I tried to sell

him tinch again a couple of years ago I

did a podcast if I was on your wrong

side I would be hiding too that is not

that is not like let's be honest here no

listen there's no wrong side it's not my

wrong side it's it's the song of right

and quite frankly nobody scared you

don't nobody scar you okay at the end of

the day and you know that so but but

back into what you're going with CRM

because you really got out because

there's over I think it's 110 billion

dollars in Market cat has been lost

between twio cinch bandwidth ring

central blink you could throw in the CMS

you could throw in a few smaller ones

over $10 billion dollars in market cap

that has been wiped out to Wall Street

Wall Street is completely dead on the

word CPS gone there's no more money uh

Allan knows it was sponsorship the other

organization know it was sponsorship so

it's amazing how you got

out right in time and on our last

podcast you talked about the transition

that you made a couple of years ago when

did you see that coming because the

stock prices were still up when did you

see that this was going to be a disaster

it's a disaster I mean it's it's it's a

it's a it's a it's a few different

things like

so just like first principles on the

whole topic like is the world still

today what it was in the past or is it

not and I think that world change

started way before stock prices were uh

were were uh were Sky High um and there

were many different indicators um fraud

accelerated whether it was I AIT or any

type of fraud but fraud is really bad

for an industry because essentially

ultimately as a provider you don't you

can't really do anything so you have

like so the problem you have is that

Brands want the cheapest price so

they're at some level responsible for it

um at the you have the carriers who want

the highest price so most carriers

started the end of life strategy you

know two three I mean I started in 2011

so two three years in we were already

sort of seeing the first first signs of

that um and then a lot of fraud so you

have carriers raising price SMS price

has gone like this you have Brands who

want SMS price to go like that and so

you're basically and fraud is also going

like this so it just it just became an

industry that wasn't as much fun as it

used to be yeah I think secondly um you

know Telecom people got a little lazy um

I used to joke to people and people said

like what kind industry are you in and

like is it fun it sounds so boring

because it's all Technical and blah blah

I was like well the thing you got to

understand about the telecoms industry

is that every conference people are

quite fun like people like to have a

good have a beer have a drink you know

uh talk to each other do business um

it's actually quite a quite quite a fun

industry to sort of be in the other

thing I always said is and if you look

at everybody's shoes you'll notice that

people are making money in this industry

and it doesn't matter whether you work

at a carrier or anywhere else because

everybody's sort of like dressed nicely

or has nice shoes or you know people are

not not people people people are not um

um cheap the best were the really big

companies where they had all these

expense accounts so you could drink for

free that was kind of like the was my

first people wonder how I bootstrapped

the company well I drank a lot on other

people's bills um so I think for us and

then and then it was ultimately customer

Behavior so customers were starting to

ask for different kind of solutions and

whether that was multiple channels or

whether that was more so there's like

the the so in like the tofa sort of

critical notifications industry you saw

customers who really wanted to move to

multiple types of channel uh channels

and we started in 2016 already with this

with a Omni Channel API way before the

industry sort of uh caught in um

conversations API um uh fun fact almost

everybody copied our name and our code

uh which is fine they can do whatever

they want we'll talk about patents later

but they can do whatever they want but

um but it's quite complex because every

single channel has their own way of sort

of doing things and then obviously from

a brand perspective you don't want to

you're abstracting all that complexity

so you don't really want to make make

all of these decisions so we saw that

Trend and then we saw a software Trend

which goes beyond the Telecom industry

which is just that apis are becoming

less important yeah so 2010 to 2020

everybody was API this API that you saw

all the companies go like this and I

think what people are finding out is

that most businesses need to focus on

their Core Business and their ability to

build on top of all these apis was very

cool and selling to all the developers

and it's but it's like and but at the

end of the day this is not really what a

brand wants because a brand needs to

focus on their core and so they need an

abstraction layer which is the

application or what we now call CRM the

other last thing that I would say is and

this is sort of been like a thing that's

been if you look at the Tam of our

industry it's because it's so

aggregation Le everybody has their own

little trick or firewall or like sort of

thing that message just goes around so

if you accumulate the revenue of all the

companies what people aren't realizing

is that in effect the actual originating

revenue from a brand is actually much

less than what it is and it's painful

like I create like like I create I I

mean I started in 2011 I recreated a

mobile core I have every secp provider

we have mobile network codes we're we

have our own mnc's in multiple countries

like I love this industry I can go deep

on S I can go deep on Telco talk all day

long so I love it and but at the end of

the day my my job is not to just love my

industry my job is to work for customers

they pay me so you know and so that was

the other Trend that I sort of saw that

like people were just not the industry

wasn't as big so if you want to Pro so

if you want to build a company that

truly is global and that truly sort of

innovates and wants to compete with the

great at one level which is still our

company's ambition then there was just

no way we could stay in in SMS forever

and I never wanted to get to the

firewall industry I think that is all

the firewall

people should be it's it's not firewall

it's money money laundry yes fill in the

blank so like it's just it it's it's one

of those things does it make money yes

it does and I've had multiple people on

my team who forever were like why are we

not doing this you know because if we

would do this we would do such a good

job and we could do it like you know

legitimately but I never wanted to get

into that industry because it's the

biggest corruption in the world correct

you basically get a carrier you get a

carrier who with relatively good

intentions just say I want you to block

my network because you know I'm getting

all these free messaging in from all

these Brands and I want you to block

them then the almost all provided a few

legitimate ones but almost everybody

that went into that industry were also

the dodgy ones in the industry who went

to brand and they just said oh we'll pay

you a million up front or we'll do this

or we'll do that and the carers went oh

yeah thank you you know so thank you for

doing it the second they did that the

price of SMS went from and what they

often did is they often locked in the

price with the carrier so they said your

weighted average price is I don't know

one cent two cents three cents four

cents and anything else and they would

charge folks like us 12 cents yes um uh

uh for that brand and at the same time

they would look inside the traffic and

then go oh you know this brand and this

brand and this brand that sounds

interesting how about I go directly to

the brand and I tell them you know

you're using you know bird or any other

provider but actually you should be

using us because they're using us so it

just it just creates and that was a

whole Trend and then Brands realized

that that didn't work and they went back

to you know because they didn't want

first they wanted they thought oh we'll

manage 20 providers or 100 and then they

were like okay we really don't want to

do that and then they sort of went back

to the indry so all these things

together

just you know made us drop pricing to

zero in the SMS space it made us you

know be honest about what our space is

actually about they actually they enable

they enabled you to make the turn so the

corruption in the industry where it was

going and the death enabled you to shift

your business so you should be kind of

thankful for those criminals and short

short minded shortsighted thinkers I

mean look twio prepays over

least of a hundred million I know a year

more uh on on on operators deposits in

different countries and then they bury

it in their [ __ ] and we can get into

twio lers I'm just not a fan we never

just for for for what it's worth also on

the records we've never prepaid for any

any anything it's just and actually not

as much from like a uh I don't actually

have an issue with no my point being is

they're they're funding the corruption

of the Gateway deals they just funded

tinch right for ATT Mexico they fund

other operators they put the money up

front how do I know I was involved in

selling tinch for three and a half years

I've talked to all the providers I

watched CCH not meet their numbers in

Pakistan and have to give the money back

I've had con I've I've learned the whole

business because I've been stuck with

these Germans which I had no interest in

being in this industry I mean I when I

sold my assets at Germans I basically I

went and played golf for three day three

years every single day and then it came

time for them to pay me more money and

then all of a sudden I got involved in

well we're gonna and then they lost the

cerse they didn't listen to me uh they

got killed over there but Thorson didn't

really care because Thorson's the only

guy in the industry that doesn't care

about making money that's why he's the

smartest guy in the industry Thorson

just wants to build his company and then

get buried in sand over centuries and

then he can come out he could be like

king thoron T thei and he'll be like a

pharaoh where people could come and see

all his patents on the wall in 3,000

years from now because he's insane but

that's why he's smarter than everybody

because he doesn't care about money and

he he's not answering to investors like

you're answering to investors he's not

answering to customers like you're

answering he's not actually building a

business he's I met with him a few

months ago and all he said was well

Johnny here I'll give you three and a

half million and then I'm gonna buy out

cpio for a dollar in three years but

you're gonna pay me 7even million if you

talk and here's a new agreement and if

you don't sign this I'm GNA cancel your

agreement I'm like first of all you

still can't cancel agreements you owe me

millions and millions of dollars you

lunatic and but that's when it real it

really hit me like he just doesn't care

I mean he blew deals with soprano stench

GMS 14 months although I don't think GMS

was so much of his fault until the end

because Yuri spent about 14 months

combing his hair to each side of his

head deciding whether or not he wanted

to buy it because we had such a

dysfunctional we had such a

dysfunctional situation with cypio and

them he he didn't know and and look we

we tried to sell tinch to GMS we were

willing to give take stock from GMS

although I got some cash and they were

getting bombed because all their

employees are in Kev that's how bad we

wanted to get away from him and he bait

and switched them pulled their pants

down made Yuri spend all kinds of money

on on you know due diligence and give me

this report and whatever that may be and

ended up falling through but uh at the

end of the show I want to try to sell

your tinch actually I want to try to

give you tinch all I want is a pair of

clogs really cool clogs I know you guys

got them clogs over there and if I can

cut that deal with you after the show

but I

mean t a part of our so let me let me

say that I'm biased in saying this I'll

be honest well then I tell you right now

they're a partner of yours because they

have to be but but I'll be but I'll be

but I'll but I'll but I'll say something

on it um it's funny because stop right

there why don't you buy

him I'll I'm gonna get there um I'll get

there I'll get there I'll get there I'll

get there I we looked at them but it's

um you didn't look at them you didn't

look at them when we were running a

process you looked at him with nicoline

Thorston where they were giving you

smoking mirrors you were not involved in

the process I know the I know the CEO of

anyways it's I can't talk about that I'm

under confiden right but like it's um

it's um the the the problem I mean when

I say I looked at them any let me not

even get into it but like we didn't get

very far let's put it that way because

we we backed out very quickly um and I

had like one of the worst calls in my

life with somebody at that team that I

was like I'm never I just never I just

don't even want to I don't even want to

go into a process with you I won't say

who it is but I will I was literally

came out of that call I remember calling

my team and I was like who is this

person why anyways I I think this is you

know his name is copsy no no but like

it's you know what when I started bird

um and we started as mobile tulip which

was kind of our first name we went from

mobile tulip to message bird to bird um

and um uh tinch was like the golden

company this was the company that had it

all figured out it was super hard to get

a connection to them um that's when I

got suck in they had all the nice Deals

they they had they had all the um they

they had all these things I think the I

think what happened is and you see that

a lot of this industry and like look

after I came on your podcast and we

lowered price and you know you saw the

whole battle with one of our competitors

yeah um you know they went they went I

mean it's wild right like they went they

went and accused us of fraud I was like

this is like the craziest thing in the

world come to America that's what people

do they backed yeah they backed out and

I mean they backed down out of it very

quickly because they were like probably

not worth fighting with us but like it's

um um and imagine I know all these

people right it's like I always I've

been to I've been to drinks with like we

all know each other from a very very

long um um time and like the problem is

it's really hard to disrupt your own

business yeah that's just a hard thing

to do because you have to disbelief your

own beliefs and when you love something

and I say that with love and I actually

say that with love to tinch to cinch to

all of these people these are all people

that I know well and they're all people

that I know truly love their product

some might be smarter in business some

might be this some might be good-looking

or bad looking but like at the end of

the day these people do truly love the

technology because SMS has something

magical it's something magic about like

doing an API call and like receiving

that message on your phone it always had

that magic and it sort of sort of always

will and if you get into like the weeds

of like routing and all the complexity

you know it's comparable to like option

trading where like you're doing spot

pricing and all that sort of stuff to

actually get through a price point that

a brand um uh really really wants to

have I think the problem they all had is

that they didn't want to disrupt their

own industry they were too in love with

their own story and that killed them

because the industry moved on it just is

what is like I don't I love my industry

I would love to spend when I talk to my

team every on the on the carrier side

who still reports to me is like I love

to getting into the weeds I can get

weeks distracted of my business and just

get into the weeds of like what's going

on but like at the end of the day it it

will die a slow death and it and it

won't die like fact is still around too

it's always gonna be around but it's

dead as far as Wall Street is concerned

and I don't I don't think you noow but

but everybody who cashed in I mean look

at the people who cashed in who cashed

out right you cashed into your own

company right so you're you have a longl

lasting Talent you re-engineered your

your your company you've taken you know

about a billion plus dollars into the

company and you've got partners that

believe in you right other companies

have all cashed out I mean i' I'd love

to explain to you how twilio was a 70

billion dollar Ponzi scheme they never

said they were a cpass company all they

said on Wall Street with Jim Craner is

we're a SAS company we're a SAS company

all they ever said and people I live

right here in New York made more money

when it was going down than it went up

yeah because they shorted that thing

from 450 to 40 bucks a share because

there's nothing but to had the like if

you think about also the differences of

how we started our company right like

Jeff started a little earlier than us

with voice but like we roughly start at

the same time on actually on SMS like

the the difference was that like I'm a

Dutch entrepreneur from Netherlands

which has 17 million people right so if

we were going to go Global the only or

if we were going to make any money the

only way to do that was to go westico

Global the second thing is that you know

Europe is very fragmented APAC is very

fragmented so we had to build an

abstraction layer across all of that

fragmentation from uh day one um and the

third thing is that SMS was a low margin

business when I started it so like when

I started I was late right 2011 is late

you know if you go back 10 years you had

all the gray routes and all the free

stuff and all all that

stuff ss7 but that's another

conversation you you just didn't have

the app so you didn't have as big as a

market but you kind of had and you had

that whole wave before of like sap

buying mobile 365 and like you know so

you you had a whole wave before sort of

me Christian uh

uh I hate that I I now blank on his name

now he will hate me even more uh the

three founders of cinch um uh uh Robert

how can I this is hilarious how can I

forget Robert he has the same name he's

a finalist in the sexiest man Robert

Christian it's a you gota add Christian

then too Christian's pretty sexy but

like um you know it's um uh we all start

sort of at the same time but we all but

that was already past it was already

sort of P past um past that wave of um

uh of what people were doing but um

twilio on the flip side they had the

benefit of back B back then just

utilizing P2P Roots period of here uh

basically consumer messaging versus ADP

which is application messages which is

the kind of an industry that we're that

that we're in um so they had the benefit

of being able to utilize P2P for a2p uh

which was the same in Europe and APAC 10

years before I started the business but

that had moved on to different platforms

and separation of basically uh a19 and

all the there so that was their benefit

the reason that they were able to do

that because they were able to pay

nothing or even receive money because

the way that it sort of worked is that

you had the carriers the carriers

outsourced their hubs you had three

different hubs um that carried most of

it you had a few more but that carried

most of the traffic and essentially what

would happen is the hubs would pay um uh

people to uh connect to them versus

charging a fee because essentially

because they were a third party Hub they

were able to get money from the carrier

so this all started with essentially

companies like fio being paid to send

messages and charging their customers

you know 0809 whatever it was per

message which by the way was still

significantly cheaper than Europe but

like free is free yeah um and then I

think what turned for them and they were

sort of double unlucky um one markets

turned it wasn't just twio I mean you

know they were worth 70 billion were

many other companies were worth a

gazillion dollars that that uh in in in

that time frame so they so they had that

uh downside and the carriers finally got

smart and were like hey why are we not

getting you know any any of this ref

share of this of this message from this

brand and they started charging um too

and that those two things killed the

business model but that that only

started in 2020 the carriers created the

campaign registry and you should go read