Thomas Sowell and Jordan Peterson on why Marxism is so appealing

Summary

In this thought-provoking discussion, the speaker explores the enduring appeal of Marxism, tracing its roots to the mid-1800s and its influence on contemporary ideologies, particularly in educational settings. They delve into the utopian vision of early communists, the dark side of resentment and envy inherent in Marxist thought, and its evolution into post-modernism and identity politics. The conversation also touches on the speaker's personal journey from Marxism to skepticism, influenced by government experience and the realization of self-serving government agencies.

Takeaways

• 📚 The speaker reflects on the enduring nature of Marxism, noting its roots in the mid-1800s and its influence on modern ideologies, especially in educational settings like college campuses.
• 🌏 The early communists, particularly the Russians, are described as having a utopian vision, which the speaker contrasts with the darker, resentful aspects of modern Marxism.
• 👑 The speaker mentions the crumbling of old European aristocratic structures and the aftermath of a terrible war, suggesting these as fertile grounds for the rise of Marxism.
• 🔮 Nietzsche's prophecy about communism, which foresaw the death of hundreds of millions, is highlighted as a remarkable insight into the potential consequences of such ideologies.
• 💔 The script touches on the human spirit's 'cane-like' element, where envy and resentment are justified by the belief that those who have more acquired it unjustly.
• 🌱 The speaker criticizes an anti-human ethos within environmentalism, comparing it to the genocidal spirit that can underlie some Marxist ideologies.
• 🏛 The resurgence of Marxism is attributed to unexamined resentment and a biased education system that omits the history of brutal regimes, such as those of Stalin and Mao.
• 📉 The speaker's personal journey from being a Marxist in his twenties to questioning the ideology is outlined, with his experiences in government and academia playing a pivotal role.
• 🏛️ The influence of Milton Friedman's economic theories and the realization of government self-interest are cited as turning points in the speaker's ideological shift.
• 🌐 The script discusses the transformation of Marxism into post-modernism and identity politics, indicating a strategic shift in its influence rather than a decline.
• 🏢 The speaker warns of the infiltration of mid-level bureaucracies by ideologies that may not have the public's best interests at heart, advocating for vigilance against such power shifts.

Q & A

Why does the speaker believe Marxism has been so influential, especially on college campuses?

The speaker suggests that Marxism has been influential because it offers a utopian vision that can be attractive, especially in times of social and political upheaval. It also appeals to the resentful side of human nature by suggesting that those who have more have stolen it from others.

What does the speaker attribute the dark side of Marxism to?

The speaker attributes the dark side of Marxism to a philosophy of resentment and a pathological anti-human ethos, which justifies envy and actions to level the playing field, often under the guise of virtue.

How does the speaker connect the environmentalist movement with the resentful philosophy of Marxism?

The speaker connects the environmentalist movement with Marxism by pointing out that some environmentalists view humans as a cancer on the planet, which is a genocidal sentiment that aligns with the resentful philosophy of Marxism.

What does the speaker identify as a major factor contributing to the resurgence of Marxism?

The speaker identifies the biased education system, which often omits the history of brutal regimes under Marxism, as a major factor contributing to its resurgence.

Why did the speaker initially find Marxism appealing?

The speaker found Marxism appealing because it seemed to explain the world around him, particularly the stark contrast between wealth and poverty he witnessed during his early years.

What event or realization led to the speaker's change in perspective on Marxism?

The speaker's perspective changed after working in the federal government, where he realized that government agencies often act in their own self-interest rather than for the public good.

How does the speaker describe the transformation of Marxism in contemporary times?

The speaker describes the transformation of Marxism into post-modernism and identity politics, which has taken a new strategic approach by infiltrating mid-level bureaucracies.

What is the speaker's view on the effectiveness of government in addressing social issues?

The speaker believes that government is not the answer to social issues, as evidenced by his experience with the minimum wage setting in Puerto Rico and the self-interested behavior of government agencies.

What was the speaker's approach to determining the impact of minimum wage increases in Puerto Rico?

The speaker attempted to find a factual basis to test the competing theories about the impact of minimum wage increases by seeking statistics on the amount of sugarcane standing in the field before hurricanes hit.

How does the speaker describe the reaction of his colleagues when he suggested collecting sugarcane statistics?

The speaker describes the reaction as shock, as if he had stumbled upon something that could ruin the status quo of the government agency's self-interest.

What does the speaker suggest is the primary motivation of government agencies?

The speaker suggests that government agencies are primarily motivated by their own self-interest, which includes maintaining their positions and income, rather than serving the public good.

Outlines

00:00

📚 The Resurgence of Marxism in Education

This paragraph delves into the reasons behind the enduring appeal of Marxism, particularly in academic settings like college campuses. It suggests that the initial communists had a utopian vision that was less reprehensible than modern Marxists, who are driven by resentment and a pathological anti-human ethos. The speaker criticizes the lack of education about the atrocities committed under communist regimes, attributing the resurgence of Marxism to unexamined motives and biased education that omits historical context.

05:02

🏛️ The Impact of Mid-Level Bureaucracies on Ideological Shifts

The speaker discusses the transformation of Marxism into post-modernism and identity politics, highlighting the influence of French intellectuals. The focus is on how this ideology has infiltrated mid-level bureaucratic structures, such as school boards and professional societies, often through mandatory adherence to principles of equity, diversity, and inclusivity. The paragraph emphasizes the complacency of ordinary people towards these bureaucratic influences and the challenges of combating them.

10:02

🔄 Personal Journey from Marxism to Realization

In this paragraph, the speaker recounts his personal journey from being a Marxist in his twenties to realizing the limitations of government intervention. His experience working in the federal government, particularly studying the effects of minimum wage laws in Puerto Rico, led him to question the self-serving nature of government agencies. The speaker's epiphany came from observing how these agencies prioritized their own interests over the public good, aligning with the predictions of Milton Friedman.

Keywords

💡Marxism

Marxism is a social, political, and economic theory originated from the works of Karl Marx, focusing on the struggle between social classes and advocating for a classless society. In the video, the speaker discusses the enduring appeal of Marxism, particularly on college campuses, and contrasts early communists' utopian vision with the darker aspects of the ideology.

💡Classical Liberalism

Classical Liberalism is a political philosophy that emphasizes individual liberty, limited government, and free markets. The video script contrasts Marxism with classical liberalism, suggesting that Marxism has had a more profound and lasting impact on certain societal structures, despite its historical challenges.

💡Utopian Vision

A utopian vision refers to an idealized concept of a perfect society, often free from social and political problems. The speaker mentions that early communists had a utopian vision for society, which was part of Marxism's appeal, even though it was not necessarily a good thing due to its unrealistic nature.

💡Czarist Regime

The Czarist regime refers to the period of Russian history under the rule of the Romanov dynasty, which was characterized by autocracy and social inequality. The script uses the Czarist regime as a comparison to the communist regime, suggesting that despite its flaws, it was preferable to the latter in certain respects.

💡Nietzsche

Friedrich Nietzsche was a German philosopher known for his critique of traditional morality and the development of the concept of the 'will to power.' In the video, the speaker cites Nietzsche's prophecy about the dire consequences of communism, highlighting the philosophical depth of the discussion.

💡Resentment

Resentment is a deep and often unacknowledged feeling of discontent stemming from perceived injustice or unfairness. The script identifies resentment as a driving force behind the resurgence of Marxism, suggesting that it appeals to people's envy and desire to level the playing field.

💡Environmentalism

Environmentalism is a social and political movement that advocates for the protection of the environment and the sustainable use of natural resources. The speaker criticizes an extreme form of environmentalism that views humans as a 'cancer on the planet,' linking it to the resentment and anti-human ethos found in certain Marxist ideologies.

💡Mid-Level Bureaucracies

Mid-level bureaucracies refer to administrative bodies that operate below the highest levels of government but still wield significant power over individuals. The script suggests that Marxism has transmuted into influencing these mid-level bureaucracies, indicating a shift in the way Marxist ideologies exert influence.

💡Identity Politics

Identity politics is a political approach that emphasizes the interests and perspectives of particular social groups, often based on race, gender, or other identities. The video discusses how Marxism has evolved into post-modernism and identity politics, reflecting a strategic adaptation to contemporary societal structures.

💡Milton Friedman

Milton Friedman was an American economist known for his advocacy of free-market capitalism. The speaker mentions taking Friedman's course and how his experience in the federal government influenced his shift away from Marxism, illustrating the practical lessons learned from observing government self-interest.

💡Self-Interest

Self-interest refers to the tendency of individuals or groups to act in ways that benefit themselves, often at the expense of others. The script uses the example of the U.S. Department of Labor to illustrate how government agencies may act out of self-interest rather than the public good, challenging the utopian vision of Marxism.

Highlights

Marxism's rooted ideology and its comparison to classical liberalism and other ideologies.

The utopian vision of early communists and the philosophical differences with contemporary Marxists.

The crumbling of old aristocratic European structures and the impact of war on the rise of communism.

Nietzsche's prophecy on communism and its potential deadly consequences.

The appeal of Marxism to the human spirit's resentful and envious nature.

The connection between Marxism and a pathological anti-human ethos in environmentalism.

The genocidal implications of viewing humans as a cancer on the planet.

Unexamined motives of resentment driving the resurgence of Marxism.

The biased education system's role in the prevalence of Marxism, particularly in universities.

The lack of awareness about historical events like the Ukrainian famine in the 1930s.

The transformation of Marxism into post-modernism and identity politics.

The strategic takeover of mid-level bureaucracies by Marxist ideologies.

The impact of complacency on the spread of Marxist influence in administrative structures.

Personal narrative of the speaker's journey from Marxism to rejecting it in his twenties.

The influence of Milton Friedman's teachings on the speaker's ideological shift.

The experience of working in the federal government and its role in the speaker's disillusionment with Marxism.

The realization of government agencies' self-interest over public welfare.

The importance of challenging the complacency towards mid-level bureaucrats' power.

Transcripts

[Music]

why

is it do you think that uh oh here we go

that marxism is such a rooted

ideology compared to things like

classical liberalism or all of these

other

ideologies that we see like this thing's

been around since the

mid-1800s and it's taken

over almost everything especially

college campuses

why do you think that is well

that's a good question i mean i think

the the first communists let's say the

russians

let's say for the sake of argument they

were much less reprehensible

philosophically than today's

marxists and the reason for that was

well they had a utopian vision

and not that that's necessarily good

thing but they didn't necessarily know

that it was a bad thing

right and so and the old aristocratic

european structure was crumbling and

there had been a terrible war and

you know the czarist regime was well

compared to the

communist regime it was heaven on earth

but you know it had its problems

and so there and

even as nietzsche said you know that

that communism would be worth it as an

experiment but he also said this was in

will to power that hundreds of millions

of people would die as a consequence

which is one of the most

remarkable prophecies i think that have

ever been uttered by anyone ever

okay so it's attractive it's utopian but

then there's the dark side of it right

which means

everyone who has more than you got it by

stealing it from you

and that it really appeals to the

cane-like

element of the human spirit right

everyone who has more than me

got it in a manner that was corrupt and

that justifies not only my

envy but my actions to to level the

field

and so to speak you know and and to look

virtuous while doing it

and so there's there's a tremendous

philosophy of

resentment that i think is driven now

also by a

a very pathological anti-human

ethos that you also see at the base of

of much of the environmentalist movement

like it's not like we're not doing some

stupid things to the planet like what

we're doing to the oceans for example is

reprehensible beyond comprehension

but you know i've heard environmentalist

state quite straightforwardly that human

beings are a cancer on the planet

it's like if someone says that to you

you know you should move away from that

person

very very quickly because that statement

is

genocidal in its in its spiritual

origin and so i think there's a there's

a

there's a whole cluster of unexamined

motives of resentment

that primarily drive the the resurgence

of the marxism

but it's also a consequence of the poor

the

the biased education that that that that

our our children receive

you know they know a bit about the

second world war about the nazis

but they don't know anything about what

happened in the soviet union in china

like often in universities and i teach a

personality course it's like

that's not where you should be learning

about the six million ukrainians who

died of starvation in the 1930s but most

of my students have never heard of any

of that it's like what the hell

we fought a whole cold war about that we

damn near

annihilated the planet because of it and

all of a sudden it's well

it's an inconvenient for the

neo-marxists to notice that

that the regimes of of stalin and mao

were brutal beyond comprehension so how

about if we don't talk about it you know

so

there's lots of corruption that's

driving this but a huge part of it

is resentment and like i think the worst

emotions are resentment the worst

actions are

resentment deceit and arrogance and you

get those three working together boy

you've got a force that you better be

careful with

do you think it's dying off or going

away do you think marxism is dying off

or going away at all or do you think

it's getting stronger

i think that what's happened is that

it's it's transmutated into

this post-modernism and identity

politics which was really

really devious really devious

and that was a consequence of the french

intellectuals mostly aderada and

foucault but but

it's not going away what's happened

instead is that

it's taken a new strategic tack and it's

one that no one really envisioned what

it's doing is

taking over the administration of

mid-level bureaucracies

everywhere so it's not so much a threat

at the highest level of political

organization

but that isn't necessarily where much of

the

the power over individuals resides it

resides in these smaller political

uh structures some political structures

like

like school boards for example or or in

canada right now our law society in

ontario has made it mandatory for

lawyers to

produce a statement of principles that

they provide a template for they tell

you what your damn statement of

principles should be

and they're basically equity diversity

and inclusivity statements

and if you don't write out your

statement of principles

declaiming your agreement with these uh

principles and simultaneously

essentially admitting that you're a

racist

then you don't get your license so we're

fighting a big war about that right now

in ontario we might even win it looks

like we might win you never know

but but and it's also partly because

ordinary people are too complacent

about the mid-level bureaucrats who rule

over them you know

we're willing to allow those relatively

small positions of power

to be taken over by groups that are very

good at doing that sort of thing and

we need to wake up to that because it's

seriously not good

and it's very difficult to fight back

against so you've also written that

throughout your twenties

you were a marxist yes what did that to

you

was that fair harvard's work no heavens

no that was uh when i was uh

20 years old that was when i first came

across some stuff by marx

and what he said seemed to explain the

world around me

and one of the reasons is that like many

kids

then and now they don't really get any

alternative explanation

and so it's like you have to have a

candidate to be the candidate

so what was uh you grow up in harlem

you went to howard before going to

harvard

yeah so you're largely in a in a black

world an african-american world

when you say marx explained the world

around you

does do you mean to say that he

explained the world of segregation no

no but for example my first job uh was

as a western union messenger

i was 16 years old my first full-time

job

and i used to on some evenings come home

instead of taking the subway which was a

nickel in those days

i would splurge and take the fifth

avenue bus which was 15 cents

if i was feeling you know you've gotten

a good tip

yeah yeah and uh so so it was we'd start

off from 23rd street and go all the way

up fifth avenue play

past all the gla glittering places and

we would turn left at 57th street

and go out past more glittering places

including carnegie hall

right and then we turn up uh at round

columbus cycle up

broadway and then out to riverside drive

all the fancy stuff there

and then uh at 135th street we'd come in

off a viaduct

and immediately there'd be the tenements

and of course this is where i lived

and i went what is this and uh

uh marx seems to

seem to explain that got it

so what what converted you

you graduate from harvard a marxist

you remain a marxist throughout your 20s

and you've written that you had a summer

job

in washington in 1969 like 1960.

1960. i beg your pardon in 1960 that

helped to or that well to just change

your view of the sound you cannot

explain that uh i mean i was still a

marxist after taking

milton friedman's course uh but

but one summer in the government was

enough to let me say you know this

government is really not the answer i

mean that is

milton friedman didn't cure you but the

federal government is what federal

government did not

say the federal government doesn't do

anything

so what was it in about the job well uh

uh one

my job was to look look at to study

minimum wage

uh setting in in puerto rico and of

course there

and i discovered that as they kept

raising them department of labor or

you're collecting statistics for

something yeah employer report report

right uh and and i i noticed that as

they kept raising the minimum wage the

employment kept going down

and of course economics was saying that

was why but the

there were two theories the uh uh um

the the unions and uh said that uh the

reason was going down was that uh there

were

hurricanes came through a series of

hurricanes uh during the time they

collected the data

and that uh destroyed the sugar cane in

the field

so there was less required to be

processed

and so the question is which of those is

right and i

and i thought i'd been trained to

chicago that if there are two different

theories

there must be some factual thing that

would be different at least in principle

so i spent the whole summer trying to

figure out what

what how would i test this and finally i

came in one day and announced the little

group there in the office

that i have it that what we need are

statistics

on the amount of sugarcane standing in

the field before the

before the hurricane came through and

i'm waiting for the congratulations and

i can see look of looks of shock

in the room like this idiot has stumbled

on something that will ruin us all

you know and i realized

i was concerned as to whether this law

was beneficial or not beneficial to

low-income people

they were concerned because this law was

providing one-third of the income of the

u.s department of labor

and once you begin to see that the

government agencies have their own

self-interest quite aside from what

whatever they're theoretically supposed

to be doing so they were behaving

precisely as a

neo-classical precisely as milton

friedman would have predicted

they were in pursuit of their own

incentives that's right they didn't want

they weren't trying to they were not

trying to establish justice on the face

of the earth they were trying to hold on

to pretty good jobs

yes got it

[Music]

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