How is the "Gay Gene" alive? Evolutionary Biologist Richard Dawkins Explains

Summary

In this thought-provoking script, the discussion delves into the possibility of a genetic basis for homosexuality, challenging the Darwinian notion of natural selection. Addressing the persistence of 'gay genes' in the gene pool, the conversation explores various theories, including the 'gay uncle' hypothesis and the 'sneaky male' theory, while contemplating the implications of genetic determinism on societal acceptance and individual responsibility. The dialogue also ponders the future impact of technological advances on the transmission of such genes, highlighting the complexities of nature versus nurture debates.

Takeaways

• 🎤 The speaker is embarking on a North American tour across 10 cities, which they anticipate to be their last due to their age.
• 📚 They will be promoting their new book, 'The Genetic Book of the Dead', and signing copies of their 19 published books.
• 🧬 The script discusses the existence of genes related to homosexuality and the evolutionary puzzle they present, given that they seemingly do not contribute to reproduction.
• 🤔 It explores various theories to explain the persistence of such genes, including the 'gay uncle' hypothesis which suggests that these genes may be passed on through nieces and nephews.
• 🧍‍♂️ The 'sneaky male' theory is mentioned, which posits that individuals with the 'gay gene' might have been more successful in reproduction by being trusted with females by dominant males.
• 👶 The third theory discussed is that genes may manifest differently based on environmental conditions, suggesting that the 'gay gene' might have had a different expression in different environments.
• 🌐 The speaker emphasizes that homosexuality is not a choice and is likely determined by biology or genetics, which is supported by various studies and observations.
• 💉 There is a concern that if a 'gay gene' is identified and can be detected prenatally, it could lead to selective abortions and discrimination against the LGBTQ+ community.
• 👨‍👨‍👧‍👦 The script touches on the importance of the 'gay gene' for political reasons, as it could help in securing rights for the LGBTQ+ community by showing that homosexuality is not a choice.
• 🧬 The discussion also includes the potential ethical implications of genetic determinism and the responsibility of individuals for their actions, regardless of genetic predispositions.
• 🔬 Twin studies are mentioned as evidence supporting a genetic component to homosexuality, although it is noted that the effect is not 100%, which is a common misunderstanding about genetics.

Q & A

What is the main purpose of the speaker's North America tour?

The speaker is embarking on a North America tour to speak in 10 different cities, which they anticipate to be their last American tour, as they are 83 years old and find travel increasingly irksome.

What is the significance of the 'genetic Book of the Dead' mentioned in the script?

The 'genetic Book of the Dead' is a book by the speaker that will be published during the tour, and it will be one of the 19 books they will be signing at the events.

What is the primary topic of discussion in the script regarding homosexuality and genes?

The script discusses the existence of genes for homosexuality and the puzzle of how such genes could be passed on through generations despite not contributing to reproduction, from a Darwinian perspective.

What are the 'gay Uncle' theory and the 'sneaky' theory, as mentioned in the script?

The 'gay Uncle' theory suggests that genes for homosexuality could be passed on through relatives that the gay individual helps take care of. The 'sneaky' theory posits that individuals with the 'gay gene' might have been bisexual and used their perceived non-threatening nature to gain the trust of dominant males, thus finding opportunities to reproduce.

How does the speaker address the concern about the potential decrease in homosexuality if gay people do not reproduce?

The speaker suggests that as acceptance grows and technology advances, gay people are finding alternative ways to have children, such as through artificial insemination or agreements with friends, thus still passing on their genes.

What is the 'byproduct' theory mentioned in the script in relation to genes?

The 'byproduct' theory suggests that a gene may have multiple effects, and the effect we observe (e.g., homosexuality) might not be the primary reason the gene is selected for by natural selection. It could have another, unseen advantage.

What are the ethical implications of discovering a 'gay gene', as discussed in the script?

The script raises concerns that if a 'gay gene' is discovered and a method to detect it in the womb is developed, it could lead to an increase in abortions, as some parents might choose to terminate pregnancies to avoid having a gay child.

How does the speaker respond to the argument that homosexuality is a choice?

The speaker refutes the idea that homosexuality is a choice by pointing out the lack of a common background among gay people and the innate sense of being gay that many individuals report.

What does the script suggest about the role of environment in determining sexual orientation?

The script suggests that environment does not play a significant role in determining sexual orientation, as gay people come from a wide variety of backgrounds, and the speaker believes that sexual orientation is more deterministic.

What is the relevance of twin studies to the genetic basis of homosexuality, according to the script?

Twin studies are mentioned as evidence supporting a genetic basis for homosexuality, as they show a greater likelihood of identical twins being the same in sexual orientation compared to fraternal twins.

How does the speaker view the current state of research on the genetic basis of homosexuality?

The speaker is optimistic about the future of research, believing that scientists will eventually find a definitive genetic component to homosexuality, despite the current lack of a conclusive 'gay gene'.

Outlines

00:00

🎤 Final American Tour and Genetic Book Release

The speaker, at the age of 83, announces their final North American tour across 10 cities from September to early October, hinting at retirement with the phrase 'quit while you're ahead.' They anticipate this to be their last visit and will engage in Q&A sessions and book signings for their 19 published works, including a newly released 'Genetic Book of the Dead.' The speaker also addresses the complex issue of genetic inheritance of homosexuality and Darwinian selection, suggesting that while it appears counterintuitive, there are plausible explanations for the existence and persistence of such genes.

05:01

🧬 The Puzzle of Homosexuality and Darwinian Selection

The script delves into the question of how homosexuality could persist despite the apparent challenge it poses to Darwinian selection, which typically favors genes that contribute to reproduction. The speaker, Richard Wayne, discusses the possibility of 'gay genes' being passed on through alternative means, such as the 'gay uncle' hypothesis, where homosexual individuals may contribute to the survival of their relatives' offspring, thus indirectly passing on their genetic material. The 'sneaky male' theory is also introduced, suggesting that bisexual males might have used their perceived non-threat to dominant males to mate with females, thus propagating their genes.

10:01

🤔 The Complexity of Genetic Determinism and Environmental Influence

This paragraph explores the idea that genes are not deterministic and can express different traits under varying environmental conditions. The 'gay gene' may manifest differently depending on factors such as bottle-feeding versus breastfeeding. The speaker argues against a simplistic view of genetic determinism, suggesting that the same gene could have different expressions in different environments, and that the concept of a 'gay gene' is contingent on specific cultural or environmental triggers.

15:02

🏳️‍🌈 Societal Acceptance and the Future of Homosexuality

The discussion turns to the impact of societal acceptance and technological advancements on the genetic continuation of homosexuality. With increasing numbers of gay people starting families through artificial insemination and other alternative methods, the speaker suggests that the genetic lineage associated with homosexuality may continue even without traditional reproduction. The conversation also touches on the potential ethical and societal implications of identifying a 'gay gene,' including the risk of selective abortions and the misuse of genetic information to absolve individuals of responsibility for their actions.

20:03

🔬 The Search for the 'Gay Gene' and Its Implications

The script addresses the ongoing search for a definitive 'gay gene' and its potential implications for the understanding of sexual orientation. The speaker argues that while there is strong evidence pointing towards a biological or genetic basis for homosexuality, including twin studies and behavioral patterns, the discovery of a specific gene could have both positive and negative consequences. On one hand, it could bolster support for LGBTQ+ rights by demonstrating that homosexuality is not a choice, but on the other, it could lead to genetic discrimination or even eugenics.

25:05

👬 Twin Studies and the Genetic Basis of Sexual Orientation

The final paragraph focuses on twin studies as evidence for the genetic basis of sexual orientation. It explains that identical twins are more likely to share the same sexual orientation than fraternal twins, suggesting a genetic influence. The speaker refutes the argument that because the genetic influence is not 100%, it must be insignificant, comparing it to the genetic influence on handedness. The paragraph concludes with a critique of 'ex-gay' programs and ministries that claim to convert people's sexual orientation through prayer and other methods, highlighting the harm these practices can cause.

Keywords

💡Homosexuality

Homosexuality refers to sexual attraction towards individuals of the same sex. In the video, it is a central theme, with discussions exploring the potential genetic basis for homosexuality and how it might persist in the population despite not being directly involved in reproduction. The script mentions that 'there's a fair bit of evidence to suggest that genes for homosexuality exist,' indicating the ongoing scientific inquiry into the nature versus nurture debate.

💡Darwinian Selection

Darwinian selection, or natural selection, is the process by which certain heritable traits become more common in a population due to their contribution to reproductive success. The script discusses the paradox of how 'genes for homosexuality are unlikely to find themselves in the Next Generation' through traditional Darwinian means, as it seems counterintuitive that traits not contributing to reproduction would be preserved.

💡Genetic Determinism

Genetic determinism is the idea that an individual's traits, behaviors, and even identity are determined by their genetic makeup. The video explores this concept in the context of sexual orientation, with the speaker asserting that 'it's genetic or biologically determined' and discussing evidence such as hand patterns and birth order that suggest a genetic component to being gay.

💡Gay Uncle Theory

The 'Gay Uncle Theory' hypothesizes that genes contributing to homosexuality might have been passed on because individuals with these genes, such as a 'gay uncle,' could help care for their siblings' offspring, thereby indirectly promoting the survival of their genetic material. The script uses this theory to explain how 'the gay gene was passed on in the bodies of the children who were being protected by the gay uncles.'

💡Sneaky Theory

The 'Sneaky Theory' posits that individuals with a genetic predisposition to homosexuality, possibly being bisexual, could have been trusted by dominant males to not mate with their partners, thus allowing them to pass on their genes indirectly. The script mentions this theory to illustrate a potential mechanism for the propagation of 'gay genes' in a prehistoric social structure.

💡Environmental Influence

Environmental influence refers to the impact of external conditions and experiences on an individual's development and behavior. The video discusses the possibility that 'genes are not that deterministic' and that the expression of a 'gay gene' might manifest differently under various environmental conditions. The script contrasts this with the deterministic view that 'if you got the gay gene, you are gay no matter what.'

💡Birth Order

The birth order concept in the script suggests that the likelihood of being gay may be influenced by the number of older brothers one has, with the youngest brothers being more likely to be gay. This is an example of a statistical trend that points towards a potential biological influence on sexual orientation.

💡Twin Studies

Twin studies are a type of research methodology often used to investigate the influence of genetics versus environment on various traits. In the context of the video, twin studies are mentioned to highlight that identical twins are more likely to both be gay than fraternal twins, suggesting a genetic component to sexual orientation.

💡X-Gay Ministries

X-Gay Ministries, a play on 'ex-gay,' refers to organizations that claim to help individuals change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual, often through prayer or other religious practices. The script criticizes these ministries as harmful, mentioning that they employ 'weird' methods and can 'destroy families and ruin lives.'

💡Byproduct Theory

The byproduct theory suggests that a gene may have multiple effects, and the observed trait (in this case, homosexuality) may not be the primary reason the gene is selected for in evolution. Instead, it could be a secondary effect of a gene that is beneficial for another purpose. The script uses this theory to propose that the 'gay gene' might be beneficial for an entirely different function that we are not yet aware of.

💡Ethical Implications

Ethical implications relate to the moral considerations and consequences of scientific discoveries or theories. The video touches on the potential ethical dilemmas that could arise from identifying 'gay genes,' such as the possibility of selective abortions or the misuse of genetic information to absolve individuals of responsibility for their actions. The script warns of the 'absolute horror situation for the gay and lesbian community' if such technology were to become available.

Highlights

The speaker anticipates this to be their last American tour, with events in 10 different cities and book signings.

Discussion on the existence of genes for homosexuality and their transmission despite not directly contributing to the next generation.

The 'gay Uncle theory' is proposed as a possible explanation for the genetic transmission of homosexuality.

The 'sneaky theory' suggests that individuals with the 'gay gene' may have been able to pass on their genes by being trusted with the females of the group.

A third theory posits that genes may manifest differently under various environmental conditions, not strictly as 'gay genes'.

The impact of societal pressure on the expression of homosexuality and the possibility of a decrease in homosexuality due to changes in societal norms.

The potential for genetic research to influence societal and legal attitudes towards homosexuality.

The ethical implications of identifying a 'gay gene' and the potential for misuse in prenatal screening and selective abortions.

The role of technology in facilitating alternative family structures and the continuation of genetic lines for the LGBTQ+ community.

The debate on the determinism of genes in relation to behavior and the potential for genetic predisposition to be used as a defense in legal contexts.

The importance of distinguishing between different types of genetic influences on behavior, especially when considering moral and legal responsibility.

Evidence from twin studies suggesting a genetic component to sexual orientation, despite not being 100% conclusive.

Critique of 'ex-gay' ministries and the harm caused by attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation through prayer and other methods.

The broader implications of genetic research on human behavior and the potential for such knowledge to reshape our understanding of identity and morality.

The complexity of genetic expression and the possibility that genes related to homosexuality may have had different adaptive advantages in the past.

The ongoing search for a definitive 'gay gene' and the belief that such a discovery will further the understanding and acceptance of homosexuality.

The potential societal and political changes that could result from a greater scientific understanding of the genetic basis of homosexuality.

Transcripts

[Music]

I shall be spending the whole of

September and the first week of October

in North America speaking in 10

different cities from Dallas to

Vancouver I am 83 years old and travel

is more irksome than it was the maxim

quit while you're ahead has recently

received a welcome boost and I

anticipate that this will be my last

American tour my swans song my final

bow there'll be a Q&A at every event and

I'll be signing any or all of my 19

books including the genetic Book of the

Dead which will be just

published this will probably be your

last opportunity to tell me how

profoundly you disagree with everything

I've written and said or the reverse if

that is the case either way I look

forward to seeing you

[Music]

[Music]

there's a fair bit of evidence to

suggest that genes for homosexuality

exist not surprisingly one of the

commonest questions I get asked is how

do such genes get passed on darwinian

selection is of course all about the

survival of genes and on the face of it

genes for homosexuality are unlikely to

find themselves in the Next Generation

it is a puzzle but it's one that we can

I think answer

oh you must be way hello I'm

Richard Wayne this program is about

Charles Darwin and uh as a darwinian one

of the commonest questions I get asked

is why are there gays why doesn't why

doesn't it die out um in in by natural

selection because if you if you've got a

gay gene you're less likely to reproduce

it than if you if you're heterosexual

um this is only a problem if it's

genetic for a start so there's got to be

some genetic uh contribution to whether

one is gay or or not I think the

evidence is pretty convincing that there

is yeah I think the evidence is pretty

clear C certainly it doesn't seem to be

upbringing why people are gay for

example the only thing gay people have

in common is that our backgrounds have

nothing in common and I think almost

every gay or lesbian person would say

they didn't choose to be gay they always

knew they were and when their friends

were attracted to the opposite sex they

were attracted to the same sex so I

think to me it's really clear card it's

it's genetic or biologically determined

now we don't have all the answers yet

and the question is from a darwinian

standpoint how does this occur well I I

think nature is pretty smart in that if

you still have 90% to 95% of the the

population heterosexual and reproducing

uh there's room for people who aren't

reproducing and whether it's because uh

set up people to be Warriors and go out

or or they're set up to uh be to be in a

situation to take care of their parents

and people as they get older and maybe

that's what the contribution to Nature

is okay I mean it's not good enough to

say maybe 95% is enough natural

selection is a much more uh stringent

selector than that if there if there are

5% uh who are genetically gay then we do

need a better explanation than just

saying oh well 95% is enough enough now

you started to come on to something that

might actually work when you said maybe

looking after I mean I I I can think of

three I suppose possibilities um one is

the so-called gay Uncle the theory where

where you you look after your nephews

and nieces or other relatives and that

makes sense in a in a wild ancestral

human where perhaps the sort of Butch

men went out hunting and um and left

their their children in charge of in the

charge of not only the mothers but also

uncles I mean maybe the brothers of the

of the so that that that means that that

the gay gene was passed

on in the bodies of the children who

were being

protected by the gay uncles so that

that's that's one possibility right and

that's one that makes a lot of sense I

think that uh you I think it does

explain uh why the gay gene was passed

on and I think there 's a lot more we're

going to learn about that the second

theory is the so-called sneaky

Theory which is the idea that uh the

males who possess the gay gene many of

them may not have been wholly homosexual

they may have been bisexual uh in now in

that case again go back to our scenario

of the um dominant males going off

Hunting and leaving behind um the women

and children in the charge of other

males uh and if there were other males

who were known to be sexual then

the dominant uh males would have trusted

them uh not to meet with the females I

mean they we're imagining a situation in

which the dominant males are very

possessive about their females perhaps

harim holders and so being gay would

have been a pretty good certificate that

you can you can safely leave your your

women with me now if they were bisexual

uh that would have been a false

assumption and once again we now have a

way in which the gay gen could have been

passed on right I mean it does make

sense in that in that way because uh

they could go off and be more trusting

and we see that today where Straight

friends just love that they won't let

their their wives hang out with uh uh

other straight guys they get too close

but if you're gay oh it's great go out

and have a good time and it doesn't seem

to be that jealousy so that that

definitely makes sense both uh

historically and also contemporarily

well now I mean it's hard seems like it

would make a lot of sense it's hardly a

good gay right slogan but but it it

actually is uh it does make sense from a

biological I mean you you see that the

way the argument is going obviously that

that that it could be that uh

that males in our wild ancestors who

possessed the gay gene that they that

they that they got their genes into into

the Next Generation by by using that

that strategy and being gay was or at

least being by bisexual being gay was a

very convincing way of lulling the

suspicions of the dominant males that's

interesting the question with that

theory remains for today though if

people were doing that back then and

then in more modern terms the 50s 60s

and 70s we had people pressured into

getting married and reproducing with

their genes uh what happens for the next

gener few Generations when gay people

are just simply coming out and they're

not having sex with the opposite sex are

we going to see a decrease in

homosexuality well uh it we might do I

suppose on that on that theory but it

would probably take longer than the

couple of decades that we've that we're

playing with now so um I I think perhaps

a more serious objection might be uh I I

don't know what percentage of men are

bisexual as opposed to purely homosexual

and perhaps you know that I I don't know

that but it seems to me that there were

a lot more women that are bisexual I

can't think of really too many guys they

start out as

bisexual and they usually come out as

gay later now there are men who were

bisexual but I just think it's a smaller

percentage than people might think just

from from my experience having met in

being in the gay community and running

organizations were meeting thousands of

people over the years I can't think of

too many people to hop back and forth no

and and you couldn't imagine yourself I

mean you you you couldn't couldn't

imagine being bisexual not in my wildest

dreams I couldn't imagine that and if I

would I'd be happy although it would be

quite distracting but uh yeah it's just

something I could not imagine right okay

and the third theory that I I suggest is

a is a rather more um esoteric one is

that when we talk about a gene for

something or other a gene for anything a

gene for x a gene for being aggressive a

gene for um having blue eyes a gene for

being gay uh it doesn't always have to

be a gene for that thing it's a gene for

that thing under the right

environmental conditions so for example

the gay gene that that manifests itself

now in an urban environment in

homosexual tendencies might in a very

different environment out on the African

plains have manifest itself in another

way genes are not that deterministic

they can show themselves in one way

under one environmental circumstance in

a different way under another one so

just just just as an example of that

suppose that bottle feeding is the

environment this is a purely

hypothetical thing suppose bottle

feeding is the Environmental

circumstance that means that the gay

gene manifests itself in gay Behavior

but if you're breastfed and please don't

imagine I'm I'm I think that's true it's

just a it's just an example but if your

breastfed it doesn't well before bottles

were

invented that means that the gay gene

would never have have manifested itself

in gay Behavior at all it would have

manifested itself as something quite

different I mean maybe the ability to to

be good at tracking animal prey or

something of that sort once bottle

feeding came in it changes the

manifestation of the gene so what this

theory is saying is that there's really

no such thing as the gay gene there's

the gay gene given that the the cultural

or environmental circumstances are right

and before that it wasn't a gay gene at

all so there was nothing to stop it

getting passed on because it was good

for something quite different in those

days yeah I mean the only question I

would have with that would be that gay

people come from every environment

imaginable whether it's somewhere very

liberal whether it's in London or New

York City where you can be openly gay or

in places like Iran where you're going

to get beheaded yes or or hung and

people are still gay under all

circumstances so I I would well what

you're putting there is an argument um

that that that it is more deterministic

than I'm making out there an argument

that if you got the gay genene you are

gay no matter what and that's what I

that's what I believe I think people can

certain pressure can hide their behavior

and we see that in the United States

right here you have people who are who

are out and open when they're living in

a in a bigger city in New York in San

Francisco and say they have to go home

to take care of a parent in rural

Alabama and they're not so out anymore

so I think the social pressure would

determine how it plays out more than

anything and I think we've seen gay

people every society all the way from

from the cave to Alexander the Great on

by I just think it's I think it's it's

something that is more deterministic

from my experience it couldn't change

under any circumstances and the only

thing that would change it uh would be

for example if I went to Saudi Arabia

today they were going to ahead me oh I'd

be saying I'm really straight right

about now yeah yeah yeah um I suppose

one thing I'm actually quite curious

about is

is why isn't the percentage more I mean

what about ancient Athens and Sparta I

mean why why was it so much more common

indeed more or less Universal well I

think that uh that's that's a good

question but I just think that people

culturally were going to experiment but

I think ultimately they were going to if

they were straight they were going to be

with a woman or wanted to eventually

well I think they were they probably all

I mean not all but I mean they they they

viewed women as different they were for

reproducing and and I I think that that

that's right or and so it was a sort of

um they were all the ones we're talking

about were were

bisexual um yeah okay so so do you think

I mean but today for example yeah you

don't see I don't see this the

heterosexuals that go to San Francisco

they're prob the gayest spot on Earth

are still straight my friends that are

straight there I don't see much hopping

over and and and because of the

environment I see people being just

being able to be who they are I don't

see environment influencing that in any

way and um or we' see San Francisco

would all of a sudden go from you know

25% G to 35 and 40 we don't we don't see

that we don't see that can I turn to

another topic which is um obviously I

mean the question of whether there are

gay genes is is is controversial by the

way when we talk about gay genes it

doesn't have to mean the particular one

that that that's you know on the ex

chromosome that's passed down the female

line I mean any any genetic tendency to

be gay uh could be what we're talking

about um do you and do any of your

friends take some kind of consolation

from this I mean is that is politically

speaking or soci speaking or even

morally speaking is is the gay gene a

good thing from your point of view a gay

gene is a double-edged sword and the

reason is Americans if you pull them and

you can show that homosexuality is

inborn they support gay and lesbian

rights across the board I mean it's very

robust and very dramatic they think it's

a choice like what you're going to eat

for breakfast in the morning what shirt

you're going to wear they vote against

gay rights so it's very important to

show through a gay gene it's not a

choice that will help us politically

tomorrow and have dramatic results the

problem comes if they can find out in

the womb they can see in advance if

somebody's going to be gay I think you'd

have absolute disaster you'd have mass

abortions taking place yes there's no

doubt in my mind that you'd have

conservatives because of religious

points of view having abortions even

though they say they're against abortion

uh and you'd have a lot of liberal

parents simply doing it because they

think life would be easier or they'd

want grandchildren I think it would be

our night may come true so I never

thought that so I want I want for

scienti for both science and for

political reasons I think it would be

the most amazing thing in the world if

they discovered a gay genene but if they

can also pair it with the technology to

see in the womb whether a child's gay

it's going to turn into absolute horror

situation for the gay and lesbian

community no doubt about it for me yes

what what would be interesting though is

if homosexuality has been advaned

genetically by this sneaky Theory

uh what does that mean for the future

when you have gay people suddenly not

getting married suddenly not having sex

with the opposite sex at all do that

mean there's going to be a decrease in

homosexuality perhaps our Saving Grace

however genetically is going to be that

as there is more acceptance and there's

technology to reproduce we are having

children we are starting families at

record numbers so we are still moving

our Gene forward uh whether it's through

the artificial in insemination uh or

some people just choose with their

friends to do to have children uh

especially with women now working into

their 30s and they all of a sudden go oh

my God I don't have a child and they go

to their gay best friend and say would

you like to have a child and so we're

seeing alternative ways of spreading the

gene in the future well yes I mean uh

artificial insemination um could be sort

of the ultimate sneaky F the yeah the

scientific sneaky

try to say that 10 times yes that's

right uh well well yes I mean technology

I mean and civilization is having all

sorts of effects and human reproduction

is changing so rapidly the whole

environment is changing so rapidly if

you start asking the question what

effect is this having on natural

selection it's having all kinds of

effects I mean the existence of

contraception uh is of course in in

principle having huge effects I mean

there should be natural selection

against any tendency to use uh

contraceptives doing um heterosexual sex

uh if it what we could speculate that if

if condoms had been around for for a

million years we should shrink from them

as though it was a tarantula or a

scorpion or something because it has the

same kind of effect upon your future

reproductive prospects I think the point

is that all these speculations are

speculations for a rather longer term

future than we're used to dealing with

when we think in terms of decade to

decade changes in changes in passion so

if if there were were any tendency for

gay genes to be decreasing for the

reason that that you suggest we probably

wouldn't see it as an evolutionary

effect until long after our

grandchildren are dead right and of

course it be hard even to recognize that

over we used to thinking in such short

increments of time I mean I think we're

talking about contraception we're

finally seeing for example in Europe the

decrease in younger people in certain

countries and we're seeing the Decades

of that um are as actually changing the

demographic uh po population right now

then there's a theory we could call the

byproduct Theory genes have multiple

effects and the the effect that you

think it well you may be looking at one

of the effects of the Gene and so you're

asking a question about what is the

darwinian survival value of that effect

little do you know that the Gene's

having some quite different effect maybe

some internal effect in in the

biochemistry of the body which is what

its real Advantage is and so you're in a

sense asking the wrong question when you

say uh it could be that you're asking

the wrong question when you say what's

the biological advantage of having a gay

gene the the right answer might be oh

that's not a gay gene or any

incidentally a gay gene what it really

is is a gene for making such and such a

chemical uh we left with a problem why

don't why don't we all have it in that

case and so it's got got to be a bit

more complicated than that uh but

nevertheless the byproduct theory is one

of the first theories that would that

would occur to a darwinian mhm it just

seems to me that they're going to find

something more definitive because gay

people matter where they are in the

world are under incredible pressure

specifically in in conservative areas to

conform unbelievable pressure even at

the expense of their lives yet they

still come out as gay I I think you're

going to find for example the recent

study with the fruit fly where they

changed one into a lesbian fruit fly

with one gene splice I really believe in

my heart they're going to find something

similar with gay and lesbian people it

is such a natural part of our existence

it's it's so

um in born most of us would say that I I

don't think you're going to find it to

be as a result of some alternative uh

secondary trait it's intrinsic to who we

are and and and so I think that theory

is going to be the one that falls by the

wayside of all of them okay that's

interesting um on the question of uh

responsibility and and that you were

saying that uh society would tend to be

very sympathetic to gays if it was shown

that definitely is a gay gene that of

course is is it has a special force if

it's if it's a deterministic thing which

you just implied that it is that if

you've got the gay G and you're gay and

that and that's that um now it's a

slight risk to to play that card when

dealing with um

responsibility um being gay is of course

nothing to do with being criminal or

anything else but one could imagine

somebody could discover uh a gene for

for some criminal Behavior a gene for

theft or a gene for kleptomania or

something and then you could imagine

people going to court and saying uh well

it wasn't me your honor it was my genes

and

um do you see the kind of difficulty

that that might come never not talking

about gayness now but just just in

general if one starts using the the

alleged deterministic qualities of genes

to absolve one of any kind of

responsibility I think we're going to

have to take each case uh separately

because they're probably going to find a

genetic component alcoholism and and

kleptomania and a number of things so

then the question you ask is okay then

what's wrong with with kleptomania well

you're stealing something from somebody

else you're hurting them abut

homosexuality on the other hand you're

not hurting anybody and so you're going

to have a situation politically where

you have a religious extremists in my

opinion on one side who are trying to

love everything together and saying that

kleptomania and murder is the same as

homosexuality and then you're going to

have the vast majority of people who

aren't uh brainwashed into that sort of

of fundamentalist thinking who are going

to say wait a second don't compare

murder and kleptomania to homosexuality

that's just plain incoherent yes I mean

in any case uh we don't have to bring

genes in you could imagine that somebody

could show that the reason you're

kleptomaniac is because of your

environment of course it is of your

environment and your and your genes I

it's not my fault your honor it's my

environment and uh uh there's no

particular reason to single out genes

for absolving one of responsibility

anyway right and and there're it's going

to be a real these are opening ethical

questions that we've never had to deal

with before and it's it's going to be

absolutely fascinating but also scary as

we go into the future and we learn more

about ourselves and in a sense play

quote God and be able to see how we got

here who we are uh the the small the

little things we only dreamt about or

saw in science fiction are now going to

be playing out on the world stage in in

political Arenas yeah it seems to follow

from the theory of Darwin a natural

selection that if anything is widespread

in a species it must be good for

something or natural selection would

have got rid of it uh and this seems to

raise a problem it's one of the

commonest questions I get asked what why

does gayers survive of course it's only

a problem if it's genetic if it's if it

were purely environmental we wouldn't

have a darwinian problem but it's

because it's genetic that we have to

explain as darwinian how it is that gay

genes uh survive in the population so

for a darwinian it becomes a very

important question is it as a matter of

fact

genetic are there gay

genes and um I think we probably both

looked at the evidence for this what

what's your assessment of the evidence

on on gay genes well first I have to

look at the environmental theories it

said that people are gay because how

they were brought up because they have

distant same-sex parents or they didn't

play sports for example and those are

patently absurd they don't stand the

test of scrutiny uh gay and lesbian

people come from every environment

imaginable we come from very

conservative backgrounds and very

liberal backgrounds we come from very

close families and broken families just

like heterosexuals so that it doesn't

seem to be a cause and effect that those

who push the environmental Theory uh

like like to say on the other hand we're

seeing over the past 15 years many

studies coming out that show many

interesting things for example lesbians

hear music more like a straight man uh

than than many women they have hand

patterns lesbians that resemble uh

heterosexual men there were there were

seem to be genes that at least point in

that direction right now we we also see

for example that birth order the more

Brothers you have uh the the more likely

you are to be gay as as a youngest

brother yes as a youngest brother the

more likely you are to be gay so I think

if you put all of this together there is

a foundation pointing strongly in the

direction of a biological or genetic uh

um determination of sexual orientation

and I believe it's going to play out

where we see it's going to be definitive

at some point when we have the knowledge

there were religious conservatives in

America that will argue well we haven't

shown there's a gay gene therefore there

isn't one and it has to be environmental

and that's crazy that's like saying

before we discovered the world was round

that it was kind of round our flat

because we just hadn't come to that

point of Discovery Well that's not true

we're just not there yet there's a lot

we don't know but that doesn't mean it

points to environmental there is no

cause and effect when it comes to how we

are raised or our family relationships

that would point to that what about twin

studies the twin studies show that the

more that identical twins are much more

likely to be gay than uh fraternal twins

or well strictly speaking what you mean

is isn't it that if you're gay and

you're an identical twin your twin is

likely to be gay if you're heterosexual

and you're an identical twin your twin

is likely to be heterosexual and that

resemblance is greater for identical

twins than for fraternal twins uh yeah

the twin studies do Point genetic uh

however people might argue well that if

it's not

100% uh that means that genetics can't

play a role well as far as I know there

were left people who were left-handed

and right-handed who were brothers or

sisters and we have one that's

right-handed one that's left-handed and

nobody suggesting that they're

left-handed because of their bad

upbringing it doesn't have to be 100%

anyway that's that's completely

completely illogical it's it's it's

enough that it's a statistical effect

and that's that's a very key point

though because people think if genetica

has to be statistically 100% And that's

the main argument that we hear over and

over again from the religious right in

America particularly in the South yes

that point Cuts both ways I suppose

because if you are worried about

responsibility as they are um they could

say well if it's not 100% that means we

could train you to be heterosexual and

what we have in America is we have a

robust uh um xgay industry when I mean

xgay there's people who say they can

help you pray away the G if you just pay

them enough money and we see more than

100 Ministries in this country they have

an elaborate uh tour of conferences and

symposiums around around the nation to

try to convert people from gay to

straight and they do all kinds of weird

things like have men drink sports drinks

and call each other dude so they'll be

more masculine or they have you wear a

rubber band on your wrist and when you

see someone who's attractive you snap

the rubber band um or they have

exorcisms that's a very popular thing

here in America we have exorcisms in

these so-called xkay Ministries so

you're right I mean they are trying to

make that argument and then they're

saying since you can change we're going

to have these programs to help you do so

and it's hurting a lot of people

destroying families and ruining lives

there's a famous case of a well-known

preacher in in Colorado who who uh was

converted back to being heterosexual by

prayer Ted Haggard prayed away the gay

in only a couple weeks he's the exhibit

a of what's wrong with these programs in

the B case the genes for working as a

sterile worker are passed on because

copies of those genes are in the

reproductive individuals say the queen

and so the queen is passing on genes for

being a worker a sterile worker under

other environmental conditions so the

gay Uncle Theory would be that in a

primitive human

society an uncle would look after his

young nephews and nieces and he wouldn't

have any children of of his own but he

look after his young nephews and and

nieces and the genes that the nephews

and nieces get from their father father

say who is the brother of the gay Uncle

the the father passes on to his

offspring genes for under some

circumstances being being a gay uncle

and the final Link in the chain of

argument is that a family that has a gay

Uncle actually managed to produce more

children than a family that doesn't have

a gay Uncle because there's more hands

to feed the young and look after them

protect them and so on I think it makes

a lot of sense I think that there

there's a very narrow interpretation of

why we are here on Earth is as human

beings and I think there's a lot of

explanations of why we're here we're not

just a bunch of we're not viruses that

are we just simply all of us just simply

reproducing there's no other aspects of

life there are many things that people

do to to perpetuate the species other

than just simply have sex and reproduce

and I think that's an an excellent

example of how these genes can get

passed on yeah yeah let's say perpetuate

the genes rather than perpetuate the

species we're talking talking Darwinism

good thank you very much sure thank you

discussion excellent thank you for your

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