EMDR and Ego State Therapy with Robin Shapiro
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful video, psychotherapist Robin Shapiro discusses Ego State Therapy, a method for healing trauma and dissociation by connecting and differentiating neural networks within the brain. She explains its integration with EMDR and somatic therapy, emphasizing the importance for therapists to understand ego states, particularly when working with clients experiencing dissociation. Through practical examples and personal anecdotes, Shapiro illustrates the transformative impact of this therapeutic approach on both clients and practitioners.
Takeaways
- π§ Ego state therapy involves working with the neural networks in the brain to differentiate or connect them in helpful ways.
- π€ Luna Medina Wolf and Robin Shapiro discuss the integration of ego state therapy with EMDR and somatic therapy for treating dissociation.
- π Robin Shapiro is an author and expert in psychotherapy, known for her user-friendly interventions and humor.
- πΆ Ego state therapy can involve bringing a younger part of oneself into the present to show them a safe and successful life.
- π©ββοΈ Every therapist should have training in trauma-focused therapies like EMDR and ego state therapy due to the prevalence of trauma.
- πββοΈ A case example demonstrates using ego state therapy to help a client who nearly drowned, illustrating the therapy's practical application.
- π€ The integration of EMDR, ego state therapy, and somatic therapy can provide a comprehensive approach to healing.
- π₯ Ego state therapy is not limited to trauma specialists; it can be used by any therapist to work with various dissociative conditions.
- π Shapiro emphasizes the importance of dual awareness in EMDR sessions, which ego state therapy can facilitate, especially in cases of dissociation.
- π The script mentions phone consultations with therapists seeking guidance on handling dissociative ego states during sessions.
- π The interview concludes with an invitation for community members to engage with the speakers, highlighting the interactive nature of the discussion.
Q & A
What is Ego State Therapy?
-Ego State Therapy is a method of differentiating and connecting different neural networks in the brain, which represent various aspects of a person's experiences and learned behaviors, in a purposeful and potentially helpful manner.
How does Ego State Therapy relate to EMDR therapy?
-Ego State Therapy can be integrated with EMDR therapy to work with clients who have dissociation. EMDR requires dual attention, and Ego State Therapy can help ensure that the client's 'adult' ego state is present and aware during the session, which is necessary for successful EMDR processing.
Why is it important for therapists to be trained in both Ego State Therapy and EMDR?
-Therapists should be trained in both to better address the needs of clients with trauma, as they complement each other in reaching and healing different aspects of a client's experience. EMDR can help process traumatic memories, while Ego State Therapy can help differentiate and integrate various parts of the self.
What is the significance of the 'adult' ego state in the context of trauma therapy?
-The 'adult' ego state is crucial in trauma therapy because it represents the part of the client that is aware of the present reality and safety. This awareness is necessary for dual attention in EMDR and helps in grounding the client during therapy sessions.
How can therapists work with clients who have recently experienced a traumatic event?
-Therapists can use Ego State Therapy to help clients differentiate their current safe state from the traumatic event. For example, they might guide the client to mentally rescue their past self and reassure them of their current safety.
What is the role of somatic therapy in the integration with Ego State and EMDR therapies?
-Somatic therapy can be integrated with Ego State and EMDR therapies to address the body's experience of trauma. It helps in recognizing and processing the physical sensations associated with traumatic memories, enhancing the overall therapeutic process.
How does Ego State Therapy address dissociation in clients?
-Ego State Therapy helps clients recognize and communicate with different parts of their ego state that may be dissociated due to trauma. It allows the therapist to work with these parts to promote integration and healing.
What is the difference between Ego State Therapy and Internal Family Systems (IFS)?
-While both are forms of ego state therapies, IFS has a specific approach focusing on a 'Self' part that oversees other parts, whereas Ego State Therapy may take various forms and does not necessarily emphasize a central 'Self' part.
How can therapists handle unexpected dissociation during a session?
-Therapists can use techniques from Ego State Therapy to ground the client and bring back their 'adult' ego state. This might involve asking questions that the adult part would know, such as personal details or professional experiences.
What is the importance of recognizing and working with different ego states in therapy?
-Recognizing and working with different ego states is important because it allows therapists to address the specific aspects of a client's experience that may be contributing to their distress. It helps in tailoring the therapeutic approach to the client's unique needs and experiences.
What can therapists expect to learn in Robin Shapiro's training on Ego State Therapy?
-In Robin Shapiro's training, therapists can expect to learn how to identify and work with different ego states, including how to apply this approach to basic trauma, couples therapy, personality disorders, and other therapeutic situations.
Outlines
π§ Introduction to Ego State Therapy
The video script introduces the concept of Ego State Therapy, emphasizing the brain's neural networks and how they store our experiences and learned behaviors. Robin Shapiro, an expert in psychotherapy, is interviewed to discuss the integration of Ego State Therapy with EMDR and somatic therapy, especially for clients with dissociation. The conversation highlights the importance of differentiating and connecting neural networks to facilitate healing. Luna Medina Wolf expresses her enthusiasm for Robin's approach, which she experienced firsthand during a training session.
π©ββοΈ Ego State Therapy and Trauma Specialists
Robin Shapiro suggests that every therapist should have training in trauma-related therapies, including Ego State Therapy, EMDR, and somatic therapy, as they complement each other well. She shares a story of a client who experienced a near-drowning incident and how Ego State Therapy was used to help him process the trauma. The narrative illustrates the practical application of Ego State Therapy in a non-EMDR context, demonstrating its standalone utility in trauma work.
π€ Integration of Ego State, EMDR, and Somatic Therapies
The conversation delves into the integration of Ego State Therapy with EMDR and somatic therapy. Robin explains her background in movement therapy and how it influenced her approach to therapy. She discusses the importance of the body's role in EMDR and how she enhances this with additional somatic techniques. The integration is shown to be beneficial for reaching different aspects of a client's experience and promoting holistic healing.
π Handling Dissociation in Therapy
Robin addresses the challenge of working with dissociation in therapy, particularly in the context of phone calls from therapists seeking guidance during sessions. She recounts a personal experience with a client who dissociated during a session and how she managed to bring the client's adult ego state back. The discussion underscores the necessity of being prepared to handle dissociative episodes and the importance of having a strong foundation in Ego State Therapy.
π Prevalence of Dissociation and Ego State Therapy
The script explores the prevalence of dissociation, from PTSD to personality disorders, and how Ego State Therapy can be applied in these scenarios. Robin discusses the different levels of dissociation and the importance of recognizing and working with various ego states. She also touches on the differences between Ego State Therapy and Internal Family Systems, another form of therapy that deals with ego states, highlighting the unique aspects of each approach.
π Upcoming Training on Ego State Therapy
The final paragraph discusses an upcoming training session led by Robin Shapiro, focusing on Ego State Therapy. The training aims to provide therapists with a clear understanding of ego states and how to work with them in various therapeutic contexts, including trauma, couples therapy, and personality disorders. The session is intended to enhance therapists' ability to create functional and adaptive ego states in their clients, fostering healing and growth.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘Neural Networks
π‘Ego State Therapy
π‘Dissociation
π‘EMDR
π‘Somatic Therapy
π‘Dual Awareness
π‘Trauma Specialist
π‘Personality Disorders
π‘Internal Family Systems (IFS)
π‘Derealization
π‘Anxiety-Provoking Part (APP)
Highlights
Eagle state therapy involves differentiating and connecting neural networks in the brain to help with various experiences and memories.
Robin Shapiro has been practicing ego state therapy since 1982 and has integrated it with EMDR since 1993.
Ego state therapy can be used to bring a younger part of oneself into the present to show them a safe and successful life.
Every therapist should be a trauma specialist due to the prevalence of trauma in clients.
EMDR, ego state therapy, and somatic therapy are complementary approaches for dealing with trauma.
A case example demonstrates using ego state therapy to help a client recover from a near-drowning experience.
Dual awareness is necessary for EMDR to work effectively, especially in cases of dissociation.
Ego state therapy can be used to work with different levels of dissociation, including PTSD and personality disorders.
The integration of ego state therapy with EMDR and somatic therapy can yield better results than using them separately.
Robin Shapiro discusses her experience with phone consultations for therapists dealing with clients who dissociate during sessions.
The importance of identifying and working with the adult ego state in a client to ensure safety and progress in therapy.
The prevalence of dissociation in clients, even in those who do not explicitly present with dissociative disorders.
Differences between ego state therapy and Internal Family Systems (IFS), another form of therapy focusing on parts of the self.
Robin Shapiro's training in August will cover various aspects of ego state therapy, including working with trauma, couples, and personality disorders.
Highlighting the role of healthy ego states in therapy and how they contribute to a client's overall functionality.
The training will also address how to create the most functional part of the client in executive control for various aspects of life.
An invitation for community members to participate in an open conversation and ask questions related to ego state therapy.
Transcripts
brains are full of neural networks
for everything we've learned how to do
and for
all of our experience even the ones we
don't remember
you know are
way too young to remember
and eagle state therapy is a way of
differentiating
and or connecting these different
networks in choiceful
and hopefully helpful
ways
in this video luna medina wolf and i are
talking with robin shapiro about ego
state therapy
robin explains what ego state therapy is
why emdr therapists need to know
how to work with ego states and how emdr
ego state therapy and somatic therapy
integrate when working with clients with
disassociation here's the interview with
robin shapiro
[Music]
okay then hi everybody and thank you for
joining us i'm really excited because we
have robin shapiro in the room i'm going
to give you a quick intro about robin
shapiro even though probably
most if not all of you know her already
but robin shapiro relishes on doing
psychotherapy and spreading the word
about healing trauma dissociation and
disrupted attachment through clinical
consultation
workshops conferences in her five books
of course you can see two right here in
the background the one we're talking
about today
and um there's also the
trauma treatment handbook and doing
psychotherapy a comprehensive trauma and
attachment inform book for beginning
therapist
robin is known for her user-friendly
interventions humor and warmth she has
been
practicing ego state therapy since 1982
and mixing it with emdr since 1993.
she lives in seattle with her really
sweet and amazing husband doug plummer
and i'm really excited because i
attended her training in october of 2020
and it really transformed my ability to
work with trauma and association it
really did like completely i felt so
renewed after attending and training and
therefore i decided to continue hosting
her for this amazing training about
this book is the eager state
interventions that we're going to talk a
little bit about today
um
so
robin tell us
what is eager state therapy
well
our brains are full of neural
networks for everything we've learned
how to do and for
all of our experience even the ones we
don't remember
you know are
way too young to remember
and eagle state therapy is a way of
differentiating and or connecting these
different networks in choiceful
and hopefully helpful
ways
um
in fact all of you might
just go inside
right now
and
find that kid part of you inside
that maybe wasn't doing great way back
when
and bring that kid up to now
show him your
you at your work
doing a great job with a client
show them where you live now
show them the people in your life who
adore you when it hasn't gone bad
yeah
that's right
and you tell this kid
that it's your job your adult job to
take care of this child
keep them safe keep them around loving
sweet people who may or may not be like
the ones you grew up with
and um
let that
kid know that they live up here now
with you forever
okay
and hug that kid in
and that
is the basis
of rego estate therapy but there's a
whole lot more you can do with it
yeah and i love that i love holding my
child in holding that ego state in and
my therapy self is always the kindest
one of all of my parts so it's
fascinating when that happens right
can you tell people do you have to be a
trauma specialist or a trauma therapist
to utilize estate therapy
well i think every therapist should be a
trauma specialist because
that's who walks in the door
so i think that people should know emdr
ego state therapy
and some form of somatic therapy
because they mix really well we got two
nods here from my
people
because
they're all different ways to reach in
and deal with that so i think
first of all every therapist should
get training in these things
secondly
you can still do ego state therapy if
you don't have training in other dramas
because there is
there are several ways to work with
trauma
with eagle state therapy
even if something
happened last week
there's a story i i
tell a lot in the training
i had a guy who could not do emdr
when he almost drowned two weeks before
he was
a college student
he
went swimming in the middle of the night
with a bunch of drunk students
and the the moon went away
cloud went in front of it so he was down
under water and he didn't know which way
it was up
and he started swallowing water his
friends managed to fish him out
and bring him back to life i mean he
literally died and they brought him back
to life
and he could not take a shower after
that he was having
flashbacks if he went to sleep he had
horrible nightmares and somebody
that he knew
sent him to me
and we couldn't do emdr because he
couldn't settle down enough to even know
he was safe right now
so i asked him the question are you
safe right now this minute
aside from
a little bit of water in this
water glass is there any water in the
room that is drowning you
right am i going to beat you up or hurt
you i don't think so okay so look around
notice right now
and how long has it been it's been like
a week and a half
okay and this guy was a jock he was a
runner for the university
and i said all right i want you to take
your strong body
back a week and a half
and fish that idiot
out of the water
and
pull him
right up to here
before he drowns
right up to here
and show him around
no water you lived another week and a
half you made it
okay
now i want you to he's here
good
now i want you to look back there again
and
notice if
this guy
is
safe
you're safe right now look back there in
the water what feeling is there
terror
okay
grab that guy out of the water pull him
up to now
through that week wasn't the most fun
week in half of your life but
show all the way all the way up to right
now
let him know he's here we did this about
four times
and
and you could just see his body go like
this
and then he's
i said how are you doing he said
it's over
nice to think about getting in the
shower i could do that
he was a swimmer too i said think about
jumping in the pool
i could do that
i said and he says i'm such a
idiot i said i know
what did you learn from this
and he said
not to go get drunk and get in the water
ever again and never to swim on a dark
night
yes
okay
so you're not an idiot anymore are you
no and then because he was
i said go with that
and we did a little bilateral empty our
stuff
and he was like
ah
and um
so that was good
yeah can you guys hear that beeping
sound
yeah robin and i i have a question for
you um you mentioned
the the emdr the somatic piece and the
ego state piece
and
i i know i
i am great believer in in the three
approaches mdr is my main modality but i
integrate a lot of parts work
in somatic work and i think the sum is
bigger than the parts you get more when
you integrate these three
then what you would have if you just
you know hypothetically have have them
as separate modalities i'm wondering if
you can talk a little bit about that
these integrations
okay
so
i was a student of what we call movement
therapy back before there was somatic
therapy
about 40 some years ago
and
um
when i went to therapy about
44 years ago 43 years ago
um
i got ego state work i went back
and
i didn't bring the kids up to now like i
just did
but i went back and um
basically yelled at my parents
and took care of my younger self
and
it was
and so i learned how to do that and then
i took some trainings and it was part of
the hypnotic training that i was doing
back then
so i had both of those from the
beginning
so then
about 13 years later i learned emddr
and it was always mixed up
for me
emcr has a component
of the body stuff
in that you ask
what's your emotion and where do you
feel it
but i will
throw in
more stuff during it
and what i find
and like many people
it all goes together i wanted to pull
another
book off this you wanted to show a book
robin you want to go ahead and tell us
the book
one of the nicest books about therapy
i happen to have written the forward to
it
emdr therapy and somatic psychology
it's by ariel schwartz one of my
favorite people in
olive therapy and barbara mayberger who
i also adore they wrote it a lovely book
about therapy but also bringing these
two things together
and they have a little legal state work
in here too
of course
yeah
ariel schwartz is going to be our guests
in june and june 17th we're gonna have i
think you will love her yeah we we love
her already and we have she has a new
book um so we will
we'll talk about that book
and if you're on facebook
but you should print her she has the
best
photographs
of her beautiful boulder colorado yeah
from colorado yeah and we were talking
about that that integration you showed
us um
arielle schwartz and barb mayberger's
book and we were talking about that
integration of
the somatic work so we are a community
of emdr therapist so robin can you talk
a little bit about that integration of
ego state into emdr when is it required
when do you use it how does it help
well
if you have to have it if you are
working with the id people you have to
because
otherwise
you don't know what part of the person
you're talking to
and emdr only works if there is a dual
attention
okay
and if you do not have
the adult
living in 2022
who knows
that it's safe who knows it hasn't been
sexually abused for
25 years
or whatever
you know and has a job doing whatever
you know and
seven children
you know
if you don't
have that
you can't clear things people who try to
do
emdr with just
this dissociated kid part that's stuck
in the trauma
it can't work because
there's no
now now
and so
one way that some people do it is
they'll bring that kiddo that it
happened to up to now
sit it on the lap or right next to
the
um adult
here now part to watch a movie of the
bad thing that happened
and
they'll both get bilateral
you know
[Music]
so that's
that's a very simple way i learned many
many years ago
but
there has to be the
dual awareness
in every emdr session
and that's one way to get it with
big dissociation
there's other kinds of dissociation
there's the derealization
where am i
what's
what what's going on i'm just still kind
of shut down completely
you know and you have to be able to do
the work to get
the here and now and
from that old
associated state and hold both
to get that state moved
yeah i'm curious robin in the book you
write that occasionally you're getting
phone calls from
consultees who are in the middle of a
session with a client who dissociates
and
they
don't know what to do with with these
ego states what do you what do you tell
these people what do you tell your
counselees who have a client's will
these are not my consultants these are
like strangers
who know that i work with i have gotten
phone calls from people in other states
who i didn't know
but they know i know something about
dissociation and equal states
and this is before i even wrote books
you know
and i got
i get this call
and i do what i did when i met my first
did client in my office
the woman on the our third date
she
i asked her something about her
childhood
and this 37 year old woman
said
were you
where is this
and i said how old are you
for
and you don't know who i am no i'm robin
and she looked really scared and i said
i'd never hurt anybody oh
um i talked to this part for a while and
then
because i had trading in clinical
hypnosis i had kind of a clue
and i said
on the count of
four we're going to both clap our hands
at the same time and your grown-up part
is going to come back in the room and i
was like please please
and
you know one two
three
four
and she was back and i said
wow that was weird what are you talking
about
that kid part that kid that showed up
what are you talking about
obviously the id
both parties didn't know each other
and
i was in my 20s i had never i've been
trained in cognitive behavior therapy
in college you know
the other stuff i learned outside of
there and it was like okay and i
explained to her look at the clock how
did all that time pass i explained to
her what happened
i got a
i started buying books going to
trainings got a
consultant that i kept for about 30
years
david kayla wonderful guy and i'm still
he's retired but
i'm still in a group with people i've
been in the group with for 30 years we
just don't have
we just don't pay anybody to delete it
now
you know
to talk about these cases but man that's
what you do if somebody shows up
you find their adult i often if they
have kids i'll ask them
when's your kid's birthday and the adult
will come back or um
you know
they're a therapist how long have you
been in practice what kind of clients
you work with and it's like
you might just get that
adult part back then
yeah
yeah
so
you know with that being said right like
working with association as emdr
therapist do you think what percentages
of the client that come into our office
would be with some level of dissociation
well if you
believe
that one way of looking at it ptsd is a
form of dissociation
it is primary dissociation
where
you push away
the bad thing that happened you try not
to think about it or
go by that street where you had a car
accident or anything
and you've got
your what they call the amp
apparently normal part goes to work
takes care of business
and then you have the bad dreams and the
flashbacks
and that goes with the emotional part
then you have the next level of
dissociation which is
of your personality disorders
those folks they don't dissociate so
that they completely forget
unless they also have bid
but they have different parts
so
your narcissistic person
is going to have that part
that
i'm wonderful i'm great i never
make a mistake don't argue with me
you know and let me charm you
and then underneath that the part they
don't want to deal with at all
is the part that holds all the shame
that they're busy trying to fight
against
and your borderline is going to have
that you can't go on vacation what am i
going to do
no i don't want to end the session right
now i need to stay here another five
hours you know
you've got that part you've got the
you you're going on vacation you don't
care about me
and then you've got the
you're going nobody cares about me
the dorsal vagal part i'm going
then you have your dids with a whole
bunch of different parts
including
the amp that functions in front
hopefully most people have that
and then the different ages that are
tied
to different things that hold the
memories or hold the different roles
they had to not deal with the memories
and those are all considered
dissociation
so um i know a lot of people always ask
what is the difference between doing ego
state therapy with this kind of clients
or doing ifs can you touch on that a
little bit yeah internal family systems
is a form of ego states
i have had a little training in it
and i really admired the guy who
invented it whose name is out of my
brain right now dick schwartz nicki
schwartz yeah
and
um
but he has a very particular way
of doing it that's different than mine i
rip off just about everybody else
you know to do it and try to give credit
when i know where i ripped it off from
he does his own particular thing
and he has
a part i think the self that he really
is sort of like the anp
that he really
has and
he does
the trauma work differently he just has
a self
with different parts very strongly i
actually have like rescues and
stuff like that but there are
20 kinds i'm making that number of ego
state
therapies out there
and we all make it different if the
client's in front of us as if we're
smart
and his is a very particular part
and a lot of people
do really good work with it
and the person who writes about emdr
and that is joanne twombly
and she's really brilliant
yeah so so robin we want to um
shift our conversation to open our
conversation to our community members
and to invite them to turn their videos
on
uh and we'll do that in just a couple of
minutes
uh so they can have
an opportunity to ask you some questions
or maybe we'll do a little demo but
before then i wanted to ask you you have
a training in august
uh if you can tell our you know our
community members who are listening or
people are watching it online not at the
time of the recording
what is in the training how is it
helpful to therapists what are you
teaching in in this training
okay i teach very clearly
what
what are ego states
and how to work with them
for just basic trauma
for um
kind of figuring out what part of you is
up
how to work with in couples therapy with
it
how to work
with people who are abused with it
um
how to work with personality disorders
especially
borderline and narcissists
with it
i talk about the healthy ego states
too
interchangeable choiceful adaptable
socially engaged
profession
mom caregiver work
playful nerdy kids that we may have
fun
activated
ones tired parts
and what it's for understanding for
client and therapist
i'm looking at
my powerpoint from that right now
creating the most functional part of the
clients in executive control
for work relationships all parts of life
healing trauma
and how to work with the id it's
mandatory for work with different levels
and
um
i also talk
about
some other uses of it and
that are kind of obscure
but people run into
okay robin shapiro thank you so much for
your time
okay and then we're gonna see
everybody
[Music]
you
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