Orson Welles - Interview (July 27, 1970)

Summary

The script shows a 1971 interview between talk show host Dick Cavett and legendary filmmaker Orson Welles. They discuss Welles' unconventional childhood traveling through Europe, his early successes in theater and film, impressions of historical figures like Hitler and FDR, his military experience during WWII, opinions on violence in American culture, advice on filmmaking, and more. Their quick-witted banter touches on various topics from Welles' work to Cavett's interview style, revealing two intellectual yet humorous personalities.

Takeaways

• 😀 Orson Welles was a child prodigy - called the boy genius, directing on Broadway at age 22
• 😮 Met Hitler as a child but he made no impression at all - had no personality
• 🤔 Doesn't like his films excerpted - always sees things wrong with them that he would change
• 😟 Was drafted repeatedly in WWII despite back problems due to Hearst's vendetta against him
• 🤨 Doesn't think any history can be fully accurate - it's an 'improved version of what happened'
• 😐 Felt closest to and most impressed by George Marshall out of all the famous people he met
• 😉 Used to joke around and mock Harry Cohn who bugged his office at the studio
• 🙂 Recalls fun times performing Shakespeare and even actors wandering into the wrong plays mid-scene
• 🤯 Claims everything good and bad is true about America - too big for generalizations
• 😢 Distressed that violence has always been part of the American story, from stealing land to now

Q & A

What was Orson Welles known as when he was young?

Orson Welles was known as the 'boy genius' when he was young, similar to Mozart, Keats and Paul Anka.

What did Orson Welles think of Hitler when he met him?

When Orson Welles met Hitler, he said Hitler made so little impression on him that he can't remember anything about their interaction. Welles said Hitler had no personality whatsoever at the time.

Who does Orson Welles consider the greatest man he ever met?

Orson Welles considered George Marshall the greatest man and greatest human being he ever met. He admired Marshall's kindness and gentleness with people regardless of their status.

What did Harry Cohn do to help Orson Welles with his musical?

When Welles was struggling to get his musical "Around the World in 90 Days" on stage, he called Harry Cohn asking for $47,000 and promising to make a film adaptation of a book for Cohn. Cohn sent the money, allowing Welles to open the show.

How many films would Orson Welles grab to save for posterity?

When asked which films he would save on an ark, Welles cheekily said he would grab "Grand Illusion", "La Règle du jeu", and "Something Else" - avoiding having to definitively pick only a couple films.

What happened with the musical score for Welles' musical?

The composer for Welles' musical wrote an entire score that was never used. Welles said "not one note of which was ever heard on radio or indeed on the lips of anybody wishing to whistle their way up the aisle out of the theater".

Why was Welles repeatedly drafted during WWII?

Welles believes he kept getting drafted because Hearst had people on his draft board who wanted to hassle Welles over his film Citizen Kane's portrayal of Hearst.

How did working with Mike Nichols go for Welles?

When Mike Nichols directed Welles, Nichols quickly sensed that Welles admired and respected him. This put Nichols at ease about working with the legendary filmmaker.

Can an exciting, pornographic film also be a narrative masterpiece?

Welles argues that a pornographic film, focused on sexual excitement, inherently works against narrative form and masterful storytelling - so while it could be exciting, it could not achieve masterpiece status.

What happened when Welles said he was a Brigadier General at the draft board?

After claiming he was a Brigadier General at the draft board, the sergeant made Welles pick up cigarette butts naked as punishment, to Welles' embarrassment.

Outlines

00:00

🎬 Introduction and Monologue

Dick Cavett opens his show with a lively introduction, acknowledging the enthusiasm of the audience and making light-hearted comments about the pages' difficult job. He humorously mentions a new invention from England, a self-destructing plastic, and makes a joke about its potential uses. Cavett then shifts to a more serious note, expressing excitement about having Orson Welles as his sole guest for the evening, highlighting the uniqueness of the show. He introduces a film clip from 'The Lady from Shanghai,' directed and starred in by Welles, setting the stage for the night's special guest.

05:01

🌟 Welles' Early Achievements and Introduction

Cavett continues by praising Orson Welles for his early achievements in film and theater, including directing 'Citizen Kane' and his involvement in numerous Shakespearean roles. He references Welles' impact on the film industry and the high regard in which he's held by peers. Welles is introduced to the audience, leading to a discussion about his experience doing two shows in one day, the nature of live and taped television, and the comedic potential of bleeping out words during broadcasts.

10:03

🎭 Welles on Film and Personal Anecdotes

Orson Welles discusses his discomfort with watching his own films, specifically criticizing the soundtrack of a particular scene. He shares amusing stories about Hollywood studio head Harry Cohn, including finding a microphone Cohn had hidden in his office. Welles also narrates a desperate financial situation resolved by Cohn's unexpected generosity, further humanizing the often vilified studio mogul and highlighting the complexities of their relationship.

15:04

📖 Welles Reflects on Biography and Childhood

Welles talks about the prospect of writing his biography, preferring to share memories and anecdotes rather than a detailed account of his life. He shares fascinating insights into his early travels in Europe and his childhood, emphasizing his independence and the unique experiences that shaped him. Welles recounts his early exposure to influential and historical figures, contributing to his rich and varied life.

20:09

🌍 Welles' Encounters with Historical Figures

Welles recounts his experiences with notable figures, including a non-encounter with Hitler that highlights the future dictator's insignificance at the time. He also mentions his relationships with Roosevelt and Churchill, sharing personal anecdotes that reveal the characters of these historical giants. Welles' storytelling provides a vivid glimpse into the interactions between major 20th-century personalities.

25:09

👥 Welles on Fame, Identity, and Impressions

Welles discusses the peculiar nature of fame and how it affects personal interactions. He expresses his dislike for being treated differently due to his celebrity status, preferring genuine conversation over altered behavior. The dialogue shifts to Welles' criticisms of a film scene, emphasizing his perfectionist nature and his desire to remember his works as better than they might have been.

30:10

🏆 Welles on the Greatest Figures He's Met

Orson Welles reflects on the most impressive individuals he's encountered, naming George Marshall as the greatest human being and leader he's met. He shares a touching story about Marshall's kindness, contrasting it with other public figures' inability to connect on a personal level. Welles' admiration for Marshall's character and humility shines through, offering a rare glimpse into the qualities Welles values most.

35:13

🎥 Cavett and Welles Exchange Roles

In a humorous twist, Orson Welles and Dick Cavett reverse roles, with Welles questioning Cavett about his career and experiences. This segment lightens the mood, showcasing their rapport and Welles' wit. Despite Cavett's attempts to maintain some personal mystique, Welles playfully probes, highlighting the camaraderie between the host and his distinguished guest.

40:14

🤔 Welles on Film and Personal Preferences

Welles shares his views on the possibility of creating a pornographic masterpiece, distinguishing between a work that's purely stimulating and a true cinematic masterpiece. He also humorously addresses a hypothetical scenario of choosing films to save for posterity, showcasing his deep appreciation for cinema and its artistry. The conversation reveals Welles' critical thinking and his humorous, yet insightful, perspective on film and creativity.

45:15

📽 Final Thoughts and Anecdotes

The segment concludes with Welles recounting a hilarious and humbling wartime experience related to his honorary military rank. He reflects on the absurdity and irony of the situation, providing a poignant commentary on fame, identity, and the randomness of life's experiences. This closing story encapsulates the essence of Welles' storytelling prowess, blending humor with deep reflections on human nature and society.

Keywords

💡comedian

Dick Cavett and Orson Welles have careers as comedians. This relates to a central theme about comedy, entertainment, and show business. Examples of comedy appear throughout their banter and storytelling.

💡Childhood

Much of the interview focuses on Orson Welles' unusual and exciting childhood, including travels to Europe and Asia, which shaped his worldview and creativity. His adventures show his early brillance and opportunities.

💡theater

Theater, plays, and acting on the stage come up frequently, given both men's backgrounds in live entertainment and Welles' start as a theater prodigy in Broadway plays.

💡movies

Movies and cinema are discussed extensively since Orson Welles pioneered new film techniques (Citizen Kane) and directing styles that were revolutionary.

💡innovator

Welles is depicted as an innovator and pioneer in theater, radio, and movies who did groundbreaking early work and influenced many later artists and directors.

💡controversy

Some of Welles' work like Citizen Kane and War of the Worlds radio broadcast stirred controversy for innovative styles or challenging powerful figures.

💡genius

References to Welles' genius appear in the intro and his reputation as a child prodigy. His wide-ranging talents and creativity established his legend.

💡politicians

As a globally traveled youth, Welles met world leaders like Roosevelt and Churchill, revealing his access to the elite circles of power.

💡radio

Welles pioneered theater-style drama on radio, as the War of the Worlds broadcast showed, using an entertaining story to alarm listeners.

💡magic

Illusions and magic tricks were an early passion that developed Welles' showmanship, imagination, and ability to suspend belief.

Highlights

Welles was called the boy genius in his early career, like Mozart, Keats and Paul Anka.

Welles says he met Hitler when he was a child but Hitler made no impression on him at all.

Welles lived in Peking as a child and describes the luxurious lifestyle his family had there.

Welles traveled alone in Europe from a very young age, which he found terribly romantic.

Welles says Marshall was the greatest human being who was also a great man that he ever met.

Welles discusses his friendship with Winston Churchill and anecdotes about their meetings.

Welles says everything people say about America, good or bad, is true because it's so big and diverse.

Welles tells a story about being drafted repeatedly in WWII despite bad health due to Hearst's influence.

When asked about other late night hosts, Cavett says he feels uncomfortable since they're in competition.

Welles believes you can make an exciting, arousing pornographic film, but not a pornographic masterpiece.

Welles names Grand Illusion and Citizen Kane as the two films he'd save if limited to a few on the ark.

Cavett describes Welles as a legend, pioneer and hero to people in the business.

The famous hall of mirrors scene from The Lady From Shanghai film clip.

Welles on his friendship with Cornelia Lunt, a fascinating Civil War hostess in her 90s.

Welles tells an amusing story about falsely claiming to be a brigadier general when drafted.

Transcripts

but Dick Cavett show with special guests

Orson Welles ladies and gentlemen Dick

Cavett

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

what a great audience that sign outside

beautiful girls dancing is working I

think very nice to see you and please be

nice to our pages would you they they

have a hard job it's not easy saying sit

down stupid to 500 people ever know very

nice to see how you been reading about

that thing that they are I've invented

in England that plastic self-destructive

both substance that they can make things

out of it will actually destroy itself

after a time which is very important

it's gonna make bottles and cans and

Bobbie Rosengarten records out of it and

it's really good joke of course they

were the it destroys itself in the

sunlight that's the interesting thing

can you imagine guys saying I have a

special swimming suit I made for you my

dear I picture myself that they've made

a tray of it and you're sitting at a

barbecue with a very hot tray full of

food and you suddenly have an almost

religious experience anyway you're gonna

listen I don't want to I could convulse

you with the monologue tonight but I

don't want it I don't want to waste time

we we have only one guest tonight as you

may know and ABC is very glad about that

they figured it somewhere there is a

foot sore tired family with no place to

sit down and they have rented out my

extra chairs tonight so we only have our

one guest you understand and I guess you

know who the guest is because we have

one guest you do not need to conserve

your laughter however it's a gentleman

who has many well he started first many

years ago he was called the boy genius

so the way that Mozart and Keats and

Paul Anka have been and I think that

instead of the monologue since this is a

very special show and I know that you

came many of you just to see him tonight

I would like to open if we can with a

piece of film that we found and those

are you film students know this movie

very well it's the end of the lady from

Shanghai and it's one of the must be one

of most difficult things to to film you

really don't need to know the plot this

is toward the end and it is when the

hero is in a fun

house and it's an unforgettable thing if

you ever saw this piece of film at an

impressionable age you can never forget

it and here's that clip from lady from

Shanghai made by our guest and he's in

it let's take a look at that I know I'd

find you two together

if I hadn't Elsa I might have gone on

playing it your way you didn't know that

but you did plan for you to follow thank

you

I presume you think that if you murder

me here your sailor friend will get the

blame and you'll be free to spend my

money

well yeah you aren't the only one who

wants me to die these mirrors it's

difficult to tell you are aiming at me

aren't you I'm aiming at you lover cost

killing you is killing myself it's the

same thing but you know I pretty tired

of both of us

[Music]

moving back with mr. well is after this

message

my first guest tonight and only guest is

unique they there is no one quite like

him I guess he is an actor a director a

writer he has been a magician and a

number of other things that as you all

know at 22 he was producing directing

and starring in Broadway and actually

three plays in his own repertory company

he set the film industry on its ear when

he made Citizen Kane frighten the

country with the radio broadcast War of

the Worlds which he thought was merely

an entertainment which a lot of people

took seriously this is and before he was

thirty he had directed as you know

Citizen Kane which many people still

think is when the finest films ever made

and it's on everybody's list of the best

films he's played just about all of the

interesting roles in Shakespeare he has

made 45 films people fall over

themselves trying to describe him

Charlton Heston was unreasonably and

just said probably the greatest

theatrical talent this country has ever

produced Kenneth Tynan once said when if

you've ever met him and later when you

were bored and you tried to think of the

one person he would like to have walk

through the door it would be Orson

Welles I don't think anyone has ever

called him an average kid from Kenosha

Wisconsin with that stories from do us

in the business he's a pioneer and a

hero and to people who are not in the

business he's a legend but he doesn't

like to be treated as that so will you

just welcome the gentleman please Orson

Welles

that's more than I got you did two shows

today that's true how do you know that I

came in when they won the last show was

still on oh yes no it's not a terrible

secret I shouldn't have to vote no not

at all

they know about tape out there and sin

in television land I think by this time

most people know I'm barely caught onto

the idea myself I still think everything

is live I wish it were

do you miss don't you yeah although I

don't know if I I don't know if the

audience is that aware I mean when

you're sitting and watching the thing is

when you bleep or bloop or whatever it

is every third word out of some of your

guests the audience must know something

is happening no sense there could be

that agile no there is a thing you know

that they have a use though on live

television where the user like a

six-second tape delay or something so

although it's live it's a little bit on

tape and they can push a button and if

you stay like being a little pregnant

it's less serious

no it's it's actually running through a

tape machine and if you were to say a

dirty word now I think I don't try it

but I would have a chance to push the

button knowing that the sound would be

erased a little head and then player is

that but that's how I see I'm special

this is a special thing yeah they have

done some shows like that is that the

principle of what happens when they when

they run back certain plays in a game

and show it to you instant replay

instant replay I don't know we way out

of our depth both of both of us you're

quite a get on to something your

questions are good the fact that I don't

have the answers is the hard part I like

something you said one time a lot of

things you said but I remember I found a

quote in which you had said I I like

people to talk to me but I hate it when

they talked to Orson Welles and I know

what you mean by that be sure I think I

do any sure because they they put I

don't mean just me I'm sure you know

what it is if they talk to Dick Cavett

they put on that funny hat that goes

with talking to Dick Cavett and they

aren't themselves yeah you know just

because they've seen you on a screen

larger little you have a kind of

identity for them that

makes them come on a little differently

than themselves and is kind of a drag

could you go easy on the larger little

part I didn't mean that I was talking

about screen on the size of the screen

yes and I don't like talk about wide

screens myself you know I think we leave

this whole territory develop yes I don't

think what people look like has anything

to do with what they're listen I want to

ask you about that piece of film that we

saw I know that you hate to have your

films excerpted and I was coyly turning

my face to the wall all during it yeah

that's interesting I don't know why is

it because it can't possibly tell any of

the story and it just out of context

it's a little no it's because I can't

possibly fix it and I always see things

wrong with it and I'd rather look back

on these films as being much better than

they were that scene for example then

would you would you change anything

about that now well I know what I

changed from listening to it which is

the awful soundtrack that may have been

our project no no it wasn't it's very

cool because what happened what happened

was that after the my version of it

which got it's one preview Harry decided

to fix the music and he got a theme song

which we then had Rita sing this was in

the early days of theme songs it's when

people sang them on screen instead of

having combinations Dinard into your

ears all through the story I wants to

while somebody came on said well since

I'm waiting for the leading man I think

I'll sing a song and they sang a song so

we put that in please don't kiss me or

love me or something or other yeah not a

bad song really and Peggy Lee was quite

good in it off scene because she was

read his voice for that although Rita

sang quite a lot of her own songs in her

own musicals but at Harry Cohn Swim

Peggy Lee or somebody like that would be

brought in to sing part of it I never

understood that anymore and I understand

instant replay but the point that I'm

laboring towards is that

Harry Cohen decided that the theme song

would be nice in a sort of symphonic

version under the shootout at the in the

mirror scene so instead of just hearing

the crash of glass echoing and nothing

else except ricocheting bullets and

glass you have all through it which kind

of losses up the proceedings but it made

him happy yes it made him happy yeah he

is one of the most interesting

characters and he warmed him because he

you no one ever apologizes for saying a

rotten thing about a man who is dead

because they always refer to him as the

unlamented Harry Coney my lament him do

you yeah I liked him I really did it

because he was a monster yeah but they

all were are almost all of them those

guys who ran their own stores in those

old days of Hollywood but he came on as

a monster and he could never be as bad

as his first impression so everything

was a pleasant surprise after that you

know he snarled at you as you came in

the door you know like that and you

could gradually throw him a little

goodies and he would quiet down and

start lashing his tail and I did get to

be quite fond of in spite of the fact

that he bugged my office he really did I

think he bugged everybody's office but I

one day I found a microphone behind a

picture and discovered that this led up

to Harry Cohen's own office so he could

tune in so at the those days I had a

radio show and I'd begin every day at

the office I'd say well good morning

everybody this is mercury productions

bringing a beginning in other day's work

we hope you'll enjoy it we play the

theme and then in your own in the office

for his benefit and then the end of the

day I'd say well that winds up another

day at the mercury tune in tomorrow

[Laughter]

we when he was alright you know it was

alright because he had tremendous

courage how so

well if he believed in something he

would go the distance what gamblers

described as going the distance which is

a great quality in a showman yeah and I

was eternally grateful to him for what

he did for me because I had a musical

only a few doors away from here around

the world 90 days and I had to open in

Boston I had a lot of costumes waiting

did I tell you this story a lot of

costumes waiting in the in a railway

station which couldn't go from the

railway station to the theater about

eight blocks away this was in Boston

where we were opening unless somebody

paid Brookes costume company $47,000 and

we didn't have $47,000 because

originally we had a producer called Mike

Todd who had gone broke and I had done

that terrible scene in movies where he

said come on kids

you know George Murphy used to always do

that and you know Gene Kelly people like

that say come on kids we'll get the show

on anyway you know that terrible thing

and I did that I heard myself speaking

these terrible corny lines and there I

was stuck with $350,000 worth of show

that I had to get on somehow and a lot

of things happen trying to get get it on

can I tell one story parenthetically

before getting to that sure the man who

wrote the music was called ported and

everybody said don't have cold parted

because he's written out and in fact

he'd written a couple of not very

successful shows just before that I said

nobody with all that genius could

possibly be written out and I did the

show with him and he wrote a complete

score not one note of which was ever

heard on radio or indeed on the lips of

anybody wishing to whistle their way up

the aisle out of the theater and the

next show he wrote was Kiss Me Kate

so you see I'd had a little bit of bad

luck and stuck in Boston with a musical

without a single song and needing

$47,000 before curtain time I found

myself in the box office

trying to think of who could send me

this money and I thought Harry Cohen who

I hardly knew and I called him up on a

long-distance phone I said Harry Cohen

this is Orson Welles I've just read a

book and I turned to paper back around

which the girl had in front of her was

selling tickets and I said it's called

something or other wasn't lady from

Shanghai then just this buy it and I

won't make it for you if you'll send me

$47,000 in two hours and he did she and

that's how the picture was made if no

book had been lying there so he's he's

lamented as far as I'm concerned that's

good I will wait for a moment we have

message we'll be right back are you ever

going to write may I call you Orson

again oh my goodness wouldn't it be

ridiculous if you didn't all right are

you ever gonna do a biography of

yourself well I don't think of biography

because nowadays there's a if you buy

somebody's life story they expect an

awful lot of the sort of material that I

don't tell anybody

hmm you know much less who ever would

have the price of a book I think once

privacy is invaded enough without doing

it to oneself but I would like some time

to write a book of with with memoirs an

awful pompous word but on subjects that

interest me and about people I've known

and liked rather than and disasters and

pleasures that I've had and all that but

not a one two three ABC you know one

sunny morning in Kenosha chubby little

one you know

I dunno you know your childhood though

does interest me I really envy it the

idea I never got to Europe until my

present age and a lot of people don't

ever get there and the thought of a

child being taken there over and over as

a kid when was the earliest you went

well I I spent my I've spent my whole

life kind of gypsy around my father

lived in Peking for quite a long time

and I spent five or six years there are

the greater part of those years he

stayed in Peking just because the living

was easy there you know he liked to live

oppress very good a very grand way and

he was born with a lot of bread and cast

it on the waters and it failed to return

and the only the only way he could

really live it up was in Peking where

you could have 400 servants and give

dinner parties with gold plate and have

columns of ice with trees of orchids

frozen into them for a mere pittance

relatively speaking and that's that's

what brought us to Peking and I was I

was sent to Europe at a very early age

on trips first with other little boys

and then by myself totally without any

guidance the idea was you've got to

learn to be on your own that had

happened to my father when he was about

10 well then he did it to me at 10 was

the first time I actually traveled alone

in Europe with just so much money tied

into my genes and there I went you know

did that seem romantic and terribly

romantic yeah terribly romantic what

seemed even more romantic to me were all

the expensive hotels and restaurants I

couldn't afford to get into on the

amount of money they thought I should

learn to get along on can you remember

and seem a bit picturesque

can you remember meeting people then

that you realized later the significance

of if you know what I mean I mean no

because I think I realized then he did

yeah people told me and I was very

impressed by by great people and

interesting people as a kid I was very

interested in older people

unlike most young people

are indeed that is odd for a kid you

didn't have little friends that you

played with I said I had little friends

who if they were big enough chased me

around the block and little friends who

if they were meek enough I bullied but

it was always pretty much of a battle

and a contemporary scene and I was

always scared of teenagers why I hated

them before I was in my teens I thought

they were insane yeah and after I I

spent all my teens pretending not to be

in my teens but in my 20s and avoiding

that age and it's only recently since

the teenagers have become the rulers and

sovereigns of the world that I've

changed my opinion

but until until this very latest

generation I have been a very strongly

of the conviction that there are periods

during one's adolescence one one is

feverishly insane well said that that's

been changed however now yes certain

sympathy now with any more than sympathy

I'm grateful to them even for their

fever we have a message and we will be

right back after talking with Orson

Welles I guess I just can't get over

that childhood of yours the little

scraps I've read about it sitting at

tables at your age with people who were

well in other countries for one thing

but sometimes world leaders I suppose or

were there any world leaders yes the

world leader that that really came to

nothing as far as my memory is concerned

was Hitler I was being escorted this I

went twice through the through the

puroland Austrian German hiking country

once with a with one teacher and once

with another and one of the two teachers

was it turned out a sort of a budding

Nazi and there was a big Nazi rally in

near Innsbruck in the days when the

Nazis were just a very comical kind of

minority party of nuts that nobody took

seriously at all and except my hiking

companion this gentleman and his

knapsack and he wrangled a place at the

table with the great men of this tiny

little party of cranks and I remember

very well afterwards Stryker was the

leader of the big anti-semitic campaigns

and two or three other well-known people

to this day the man sitting next to me

was Hitler and I he made so little

impression on me that I can't remember a

second of it gee he had no personality

whatsoever

wonder fun he was invisible wonderful

under hypnosis it would come at do you

know I think there was nothing there

that anybody'd remember did you had five

thousand people yelling seeker Isle Isle

Hitler that's the point of the story

that there wasn't anything to remember

what about those films that were made

about him by Lanie riefenstahl very good

films are they they often hear that they

they are awfully well made yes is she

alive yes

have you met her no I haven't met her

but she's living I think in England

there's someplace like that and yeah and

hustling around trying to get you know

to flog a documentary here and there you

know almost any subject

I never met Stalin I would I never met

Stalin but I Roosevelt I knew very well

and Churchill and lots of during

childhood and then use of course yes

very lucky that respect what age were

you when you were orphaned well my

mother died when I was six and no seven

and my father died when I was 15

beginning of my 15th birthday then I ran

away tried to stay out of school a lot

of Harvard I had a scholarship and

desperate not to be educated I went into

the theater it made it I wasn't educated

what if you what if you were now I mean

what if you wanted to go to school what

would you have any idea what you want to

study now that's a good question

everything I guess but yeah if I wanted

to be a to study seriously you know and

get good at a subject I think it would

be anthropology don't you think that's

fascinating so yeah yeah yeah I I don't

know maybe I would do it or maybe

philosophy yeah I never very much I'm

suspicious of philosophy I have a grille

Philistine doubt about it's worth you

know but anthropology seems to me to be

just that its beginnings and philosophy

kind of at its end and we're at the end

of this segment but we will be right

back is that too I'm too contrived we'll

be back

who else stands out from that that time

in your life in it what phases come to

mind

you mean famous ones sure or infamous

yes famous or any of that well we had

sicko Gruber but I you know um you do

you know you know wonderful people that

that aren't famous I guess one of the

most remarkable people I ever knew was

somebody called Cornelia Lunt and Alfred

Lunt used to pretend to be her cousin

they weren't related at all they loved

each other and she was when I knew her

in her middle 90s and had been a hostess

of great importance although very young

in the civil war in America and knew

intimately all the great names of the

civil could tell you all about what

Lincoln said and what my

great-grandfather Gideon Welles said to

his secretary may be in the cabinet she

great kind of rocontour on the civil war

that she went over to London where she

was at the American Embassy and where

she knew everybody in England all those

fabulous people that seemed to have been

dead for 200 years you know in the

Victorian age and it was you could only

get her to tell about these things with

great difficulty she didn't go on and on

like I do you had had to drag it out of

her and she was delicious

she was an old lady but when she gave a

big party sat on a little stool and she

gave you a big chair if you can imagine

an old lady like that she was very

beautiful

must have been not so beautiful when she

was young but one of those people that

old age glorifies and she had a little

bill and when she wanted everybody to be

quiet so she could say something she'd

ring her bill

and then we don't be quiet and she'd

make her little statement then ring it

again and everybody could talk she's one

of the great people I've known you know

as great certainly as as Churchill or

Roosevelt or George Marshall and I

suppose Marshall is the greatest man I

ever met

really yes I would think what would you

admire what about him above everybody

else human being I think he's the he's

the greatest human being who was also a

great man well I was ever privileged to

meet have you known something that were

can I tell a little story about him

certainly we'd been campaigning for

Roosevelt not George Marshall but some

of the rest of us and one of our rewards

when he got in again one of those many

times that he did was to go to a big

party a very big brass and sit on the

Dyess and be treated as though we were

part of the High Command just for one

night and there were all these

tremendous names from the Second World

War two or three civilians Truman the

vice president who was playing the piano

we were rather embarrassed about that

because he didn't seem to be awfully

good on the piano and we didn't know

that he was going to be a great

president you see that's he didn't look

as though he did either but he and my

said they're only about four or five

civilians all the rest were tremendous

brass dripping with gold braid and

medals and everything else and it was in

the Mayflower Hotel in Washington and a

door opened and GI more innocent looking

than anything you could possibly imagine

and younger than anything you could

dream of stuck his head in at the moment

when General Marshall happened to look

toward the door

and the boy looked at him he said gee

general Marshall can I come in and say

hello to you Marshall said yeah come in

and Marshall didn't know anybody was

watching this wasn't a grandstand play

I was in a position my camera was angled

so he didn't know he was getting

photographed to anybody's film of memory

yeah and he took the boy aside away from

everybody and sat down with him and I

heard as he went that the boy had been

away from home was when the boy

recognized Marsha was somebody like a

family now this was the commander there

all holy Allied forces and he sat with

this boy without any grandstanding at

all and just put him at ease and made

him feel at home again for half an hour

and left all the rest of us he was that

kind of film wonder what the difference

is between two men like that and the

ones who are impressive publicly but

couldn't be bothered to talk to anyone

that isn't important two of them were

flat well I I don't know those those

kind of people are all second-rate who

can't be bothered at all ever but there

are those who can't be bothered

sometimes you know and that's you had a

feeling with Marshall that if it were

possible to be bothered he would let

himself be bothered he was a tremendous

gentleman you know an old-fashioned

institution which isn't with us anymore

okay you almost never want to ask anyone

the question who impressed you the most

and it's wonderful to have a guest who

can give you the answer well I never do

know the answers to those kind of

sergeants you know but I just happened

to know that one of course I was

immensely impressed with Churchill and

but but he was quite another thing you

know he was he had great humor and great

irony he went to see me when I played

Othello on the stage in London and I

heard a low murmuring in the front row I

thought he was talking to himself and

then he came backstage afterwards and

sat down in the dressing room and said

most potent grave and unseen your

masters and began the halls of Othello's

part which he had memorized and

including the cuts which I had made

which he read with a good deal of extra

emphasis

then a few years afterwards I happen to

be in Venice trying to get some money

for a movie

during the festival and poor Churchill

had been right after the war there's you

know crest of the greatest victory that

any single man had ever presided over in

modern history was voted out of office

quite properly probably but it was a

tragic blow for him and there he was in

the hotel at the Lido with Clemmy his

wife alone and he'd go swimming out in

the beach one day at lunch I came in

with a Russian businessman I was trying

to hustle for some money for this

picture and as we passed mr. Churchill's

table mr. Churchill saw me and made that

little gesture and the Russian went out

of his mind this is a White Russian not

a red Russian this is a this is a you

know hustling semi Armenian Russian when

he saw that mr. Churchill not only knew

me but gave a rather special

acknowledgment it was clear to me that I

had the money for my picture so the next

morning I was out swimming in the beach

and I fire and I found myself paddling

in the water right next to mr. Churchill

and I hadn't gone up to speak to it

there we were in the water and I had

known him on and off during the war in a

humble capacity and I said missus and he

had come backstage to see me and I said

mr. Churchill I think you ought to know

what you did for me and I told him about

how this acknowledgment had meant so

much to me with my financier and that

day at lunch I came in with the Finan

see again and mr. Churchill rose and bow

that is good pretty good

that's good we'll be back after this

message you've lived all over the place

and all over the globe and then you for

as a long time when you'd went out in

this country then you suddenly came back

oh what opinion do you have of some of

the generalizations that are made about

the country that there's a Oh something

violent in the American character for

example or that there is other countries

I think there is don't you I think there

always has though yeah I think it's part

of our whole story I think the one thing

that is generally true the one

generalization which is true about

America is that everything is true about

it it's impossible to say anything that

isn't true good or bad our enemies are

right our friends are right yeah it's an

awful big country an awful lot of

different kinds of people in it and

violence always has been part of our

story it is you know I've seen it in my

own lifetime long before this period and

we certainly read about it in history

that's the way we won in the country and

stole it away from the Indians and all

the rest of it is it I wonder why it

should be though there's any reason why

the English if if they had had Indians

in England before they were Englishmen

there we had some Indians and Indians in

India yes they did didn't they and they

had those kind of folks all over and

they in some places they brought the law

and justice and I've talked to people in

other ex-colonies nice people when you

mention the British burst into tears of

anger literally tears of rage about our

nice English cousins so the bad things

are true about them they burnt the roofs

off of the Irish and starve them out

into the cold there's nothing nothing

that you can think of that the English

didn't do to that Island right next door

to them to the Irish over a period of

seven hundred years and we're English

then we added a lot of other violent

mixtures to the brew I think man is a

crazy animal

I think we are all so I think we're all

so marvelous people divine in our

potentialities you see there you are you

can say anything with passion and get a

hand but but seriously I think

everything is true about people just as

it's true about America we can do

anything anything vile and anything

great and all the generalizations are

true and all of them are boring as you

must certainly have noted in the line of

your work I'm gonna ask you about your

work could I interview you I know that

good idea I suppose is it important well

let me tell you it's frightening to meet

a legend and I know that it must be

upsetting for you too and I I know that

half your life has been spent wanting to

know about me so shoot well it seems

like that's true because I've been

watching you an awful long time well and

uh and with great pleasure as millions

of other people have been doing I think

that deserves a little applause Oh No

but really really really I would like to

know more about you and I bet there and

millions of people who don't know much

about you except as you appear in the

course of your conversation now there

was the other night on the shore not the

other night some weeks ago I heard you

say to my distress that you had once

been enacted oh yes I'm always sorry to

hear anybody that I admire has been

enough

there are those who were more

immediately distressed than you were

that night yes I was one of the I guess

in the annals of the theater I guess

probably one of the one of the top three

second murderers in Richard the third

that was that your only rule yes and

unfortunately it wasn't even in the play

Richard the third a III was in a

repertory thing this actually have

anyone that I committed the awful sin of

being in repertory and coming out and

doing a line from the wrong play not

just one line but it certainly you've

done that you're you're you're a veteran

because we've all done that have you

done that oh my goodness oh my goodness

yes we even had a gag of it by the way

you said something wrong when you

introduced me you said and this is a

parenthesis that I'd produce three plays

in my repertory company and then went to

to Hollywood and in fact we did dozens

and dozens of shows I had one OK at one

time we had a repertory in which we were

our proposition our idea was to do a

tragedy which was danton's death and

another night forest by Labiche and we

had famous actor from middle europe

playing in the tragedy and he didn't

have any part in the forest but every

night of the forest he used to come in

during the big door slamming thing

dressed up his robe spear look around

sit a stake and run out again in the

wrong play

but show the right spirit not America

but but we've all wait you know in

Shakespeare you're going to the wrong

lines all the time because of the rhythm

sure you stop thinking for a miniature

in another play

I saw another actor do it one tennis at

Stratford Connecticut but he came on and

he started the Merchant of Venice right

in the middle of the council scene in a

fellow and and it's pretty hard when the

Council of Cyprus breaks up laughing and

giggling and the seriously and it's very

very you began isn't that excuse me if I

press on with this that's alright you

won't learn anything when did you go

straight while you were asking that

question that startled me no I'm kind of

a male Garbo mr. wells I I like to

preserve a great deal of mystery about

myself and I'm so easy

[Laughter]

we we have a message we'll be right

we'll be right back

see this amazing Cuse me I don't think

we should let you weasel out of this

crisis

you know you sit there you sit there

night after night for 90 minutes at a

time

drunk with power Helton people with

questions and a few simple little

requests for information and what do we

get

you know the second murder that's right

now what did you do after after leaving

the boys after leaving the boards well

and I was a comedy writer for a while I

wrote for that I'm Jack Paar and others

nob that uh that brings me to a question

you mentioned Jack Paar and then you say

and others yes I do were the others I'm

learning how to do this Jerry Lewis

ringabel

a rather dim gong

I'm gonna go sound like no fat no no

calories not it's funny but the same

delivery no no no really I'd like I'd

like to press on with an embarrassing

question really you know among tenors

for example yes among newscasters among

Shakespearean actors even among

politicians there's very little

reluctance to discuss the competition

but why among you fellows who sit saying

will you welcome please a sweet singer

of songs and and when did you stop

beating your wife and all the rest of it

why do you why do you fellows shrivel up

your heads get like little walnuts

when anybody ever mentions for example

Johnny Carson or Merv Griffin oh yeah or

David Frost

well what is this reluctance to mention

even the names all right that's a good

question we do you know you're all like

that it isn't just you and an official

reason and not express even an opinion

on them because I think it's because you

are in competition with them in a sense

although those guys are both friends

when you mentioned I worked for the

minnow and you feel kind of funny

talking about somebody's doing sort of

the same thing you do and I think that's

why none of us ever mentioned the other

jerks the other fellas oh you you've

trapped me mr. wells

I know it's interesting I don't feel

that I have no

you you're a sly one

you strip me bare I see I'm getting

nowhere with that line well you know

what it makes me uncomfortable because I

feel that I'm here every night and so

are they and you're not you see

I see so you don't want me to go on with

this well you know will remain this

mystery forever yeah I feel like I'm a

thinly wrapped enigma there isn't really

there may not be that much there to know

but I you know while you're here I feel

obligated to all those people

particularly the film buffs who who

expected me to ask you certain questions

but then you're probably tired of a lot

of those I never answer yeah I never

answer I'm not because I have because of

naughtiness it's just that I I don't

know the answers to most of the

questioned Jerry Lewis yeah and I caught

him on on one of your friends shows I

guess we call him your friend yes I

caught them on one of your friends shows

in fact he was on interminably one of

your friends shows yes and I feel that

what he did for Myra Breckinridge I

ought to do for Jerry Lewis

he really has a way of coming on as a

great thinker which should be stopped

why I mention him though and I'm not

going to mention him much longer because

I would hate to do for him what he did

for my regret later why I mention is

because he said the sort of thing that

you hear from film buffs and you don't

expect hear from Jerry Lewis he actually

said on The Tonight Show yeah

well the secret of authenticity and

complete autocracy and autonomy is

autonomy and cinematic integrity or

words to that effect now those are the

kind of questions that the film buffs

like to ask and that I guess Jerry Lewis

answers cuz he teaches he teaches how to

make movies in a school among other

things I believe that was that was a

thought he dropped several times and my

bitterness about him stems from the fact

that here's a rich fellow who has plenty

other things to do except come on with

that kind of dialogue this really too

much of it you there's many long words

you know they're too many long words in

the world nowadays and the younger that

people are the longer the words are have

you noticed that it's a very funny thing

they have a wonderful new hip language

which is really our old Harlem language

that I used to know when I was running a

theater up there with a few new phrases

and they're great and very colorful but

everything else is terribly long nobody

says I see a thing a certain way they

say I envisage it

nobody says under 30 I would like to

think up an idea they say I have

conceived something or this is my

conception or not or I this is my

relationship everything is four or five

syllables long there's a veracity in

what you're saying

[Laughter]

do you have any recurrent dreams

[Laughter]

I think we'll take a break

[Laughter]

two can play at this game we'll be back

it was good I wondered am I one thing I

read about you that I found a little

surprising was that you check me on this

did not like solitude I loved solitude

then they were wrong you bet but aren't

they always wrong I guess so have you

been badly misquoted but I think

everybody is and everything I don't

think history can possibly be true

possibly I'll tell you why because we

all know people get things written about

we know that their lies would have

written we I told a story to buck Henry

last year in Guaymas and he told the

story that he thought I had told him to

a newspaper that I read the other day

and it bears not the slightest

resemblance to what I said now that's an

intelligent man a year later meaning me

well and that's the you know the Gospel

according to buck Henry and it's a

totally apocryphal imagine what nonsense

everything else is I know it is do you

want to clear it up now how about that I

don't like solitude no no no the story

no it isn't worth going into our lap

isn't it isn't all that good a story

yeah when you were in that film and it

seemed I must have improved it maybe

that's why I was just talking history is

an improved version of what happened

no not necessarily only a buck Henry

writes it I guess I think what about

when you're on a film like that where

somebody else is directing and they do

tend to be in all of you as much as you

don't like people to be and might Mike

Nichols making that film he said it it

would probably he was worried about the

fact that he would know that you working

just as an actor we're also thinking

about the direction at the same time can

you calm somebody down about that in his

case he was put at his ease almost

immediately when he sensed as he must

have sensed since he's an immensely

intuitive man that I enormous Lee

admired it and so how could he have been

anything but comfortable what do they

mean when they say you know they someone

said about you had worked with you in a

film he not only knows if he's in the

shot he knows so much about movies he

knows if he's in focus is this possible

well I know what I know what where the

camera is cutting

I know what I know what what's in the

shot and what isn't from from a working

a long working acquaintanceship with

lenses and the camera you know I'm I'm

at ease in that respect you have to

learn that if you jump back and forth

it's not all that miraculous sounds

great but isn't all that wonderful so

you really can't tell if you're if

you're yelling it's not that hard to do

is it nitpicking or annoying when people

ask specific little questions about film

like in Citizen Kane and people remember

it's nitpicky oh no sorry that was rude

I beg your pardon

cheap and easy again that's an issue no

I was gonna say that everybody remembers

it was it everybody remembers that one

scene where you suddenly cut to a

cockatoo screeching just before it was

to wake up the audience it's the entire

significance of the cockatoo I just

can't get a pic I can't get a

pretentious answer out of you we will be

back after message stay where you are

this is an album Orson Welles the

beginning of the president and it goes

from FDR up to the current time and mr.

Welles was very sensitive well it kind

asked me not to even mention it in the

comical in intention good good what does

it mean that you were a brigadier

general once now there's a question well

you weren't my war memorized ooh I'd

like that

well I used to be drafted every month

all during the war oh and I was drafted

every month and thrown out the same day

because of a bad back and a lot of other

things but drafted every month because

the draft board contains some Hearst

people and Hearst was after me because

of Kane and this was a good way to

needle me so right up to the end when

there were you know just the bottom of

the barrel was lining up you know

dressed like they do at the end of the

first act of hair waiting to shuffle off

into oblivion there I was I was a

familiar

figure I may say in the draft Department

and during the course of the war I was

sent on several totally idiotic missions

of one sort and another in a civilian

capacity but when you car flew over or

near enemy territory as a civilian they

give you sort of a semi official title

so that if you're captured highly

unlikely situation you will be treated

by the rank that your documents say you

have and several times I was a major and

I made chicken colonel and once as a

joke somebody made me Brigadier General

which wasn't that unusual sometimes kind

of faintly well-known people got to be

Brigadier General on a piece of paper in

case you were captured well here I am on

the draft board right near the end of

the war once again we're all lined up

and for some reason the sergeant says

all right anybody who's ever been in the

army or have held any rank please step

forward

about ten of us step forward he says all

right anybody what to rank anybody above

the rank of Corporal not left about

three yeah

he says above the rank of Sergeant and

that left me now you know the rest of

this pie had been up for several nights

and them I wasn't at my best

I didn't think and he says what was your

rank and I said brigadier general and he

said all right down on your hands and

knees and pick up all the cigarette

butts general and I spent the rest of

the day naked picking up cigarette butts

Oh for having been a general that's my

and my war service

none of that was captured on film

luckily no yeah we didn't make those

kind of movies then I wondered only have

two minutes left

has anyone ever made a pornographic

masterpiece I think it could only be a

masterpiece of pornography but not a

masterpiece which was pornographic if

you understand what I mean other words

if what you're after is to excite people

sexually / excite them or stimulate them

then it should be possible to make a

film which is exciting and is therefore

a masterpiece of excitation but you

cannot make a film masterpiece which is

pornographic because the material is

antipathetic

to the film you can get as dirty as you

want but not also excite people because

exciting people during the course of a

story exciting them sexually is changing

the subject so completely that you have

no more narrative form there goes my

project I just been thinking for now

someone asked about the other day and I

was curious about it we have a minute

left if we were loading on the ark now

and you could grab four or five films

not your own but other people's to save

on the ark for posterity

what would you grab to death quick

another answer another question

oh yeah oh another girl you to film me

two films yeah two films two films

grantee Luciana Renoir yeah and

something else

[Laughter]

I'll never do that to you again we will

be back after this massacre local

station

Thank You dick I think I ought to say

explain for our viewers that something

else of course is the film directed by

James Cruz with Radha la Roca Korean

griffith there is a something else look

it up oh you've stunned me and I'm sorry

I grabbed you with that question like

that something we'll all look Brenda New

Zealand and something else gee thank you

for being here this is really a pleasure

and I feel very lucky to graduate from

at all thank you please come again

[Applause]

he'd pull their hopes on Republic

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