The Lambs' Q&A with Film Critic David Thomson

Summary

Film critics David Thomson and Foster Hirsch engage in a thoughtful discussion about the past, present and future of film directors. They analyze the careers of legendary directors like Scorsese and Tarantino, debate the problematic legacy of controversial figures like Woody Allen, and explore how shifting cultural norms are impacting creative expression. While they disagree on various directors, they find common ground discussing cinema's role depicting the American experience. They remain optimistic about film's future, even as streaming and other forces transform viewing habits.

Takeaways

• 😊 David and Foster have different opinions on some directors and films, but appreciate discussing cinema openly
• 🎥 David believes high quality TV series now surpass movies for cultural impact
• 😢 David worries people may not return to theaters post-pandemic, threatening film culture
• 👀 David had to reconsider some comfortable assumptions when writing the book to adapt to current cultural standards
• 😠 David refuses to dismiss great directors like Allen and Polanski despite their personal controversies
• 🎭 David argues cinema must explore romance and sexuality freely even if it makes some people uncomfortable
• 🎒 David selected Scorsese and Tarantino's latest films to show the crisis in America's relationship with cinema
• 📽 David highlights excellent work by minority directors, wanting to judge them as just directors, not minorities
• 🎞 David explores how being an outsider to American culture shaped his perspectives on its cinema
• 🤔 David and Foster debate favorites like Howard Hawks but appreciate discussing different opinions

Q & A

What does Thompson say initially drew him to film and shaped his lifelong passion for cinema?

Thompson says that from a very young age, around 4 years old, his parents took him to see films which had a huge impact on him. Even when he was terrified by a film, he still wanted to go back and be frightened again, so he developed an 'obsessive, compulsive relationship with the movies'.

How does Thompson compare the quality of recent TV/streaming series to recent theatrical releases?

Thompson feels that in recent years, the long-form streaming and TV series have been more impressive and involving than most of the films playing in theaters. He thinks we may be developing a habit of staying home to watch high-quality series rather than going out to theaters.

What two recent films does Thompson critique, and why does he find them problematic?

Thompson critiques Martin Scorsese's The Irishman and Quentin Tarantino's Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. He found them both overly long, expensive vanity projects that didn't have much cultural impact. He also feels they represented missed opportunities to make truly meaningful films.

How did Thompson's perspective as a Brit impact his view of American culture and cinema?

Having grown up in the UK, Thompson saw America as a land of culture, creativity and idealism. He says that as an outsider, he may have a more critical view of the 'American romance' than someone born in the US would have.

Who are some of Thompson's favorite directors that he wishes he could have included in the book?

He wishes he could have included Max Ophüls, French documentarian Chris Marker, Michael Powell, Elia Kazan, and Douglas Sirk. He explains why each would have brought something unique to the book.

How does Thompson address the challenges of writing about cinema amidst shifting cultural norms and cancel culture?

He admits feeling pressure not to offend or say certain things, but refuses to completely outlaw discussing filmmakers like Allen or Polanski based solely on their controversial personal lives. He warns of the dangers of letting 'illiberal forces' dictate such prejudices.

Why does Thompson argue against throwing out all of cinema because it has encouraged some 'bad' people?

He says most directors have been 'tough, ruthless, selfish' people with bad personal track records, but we can't discount the whole art form because of that. People are complex, and even people who've done bad things can create great art.

What are Thompson's critiques of both Triumph of the Will and Leni Riefenstahl?

While an extremely skilled visual stylist, he calls Riefenstahl's confidence in telling the Nazis how to stage events for her 'breathtaking'. He says Triumph is terrifying post-1945 but wonders if it was truly more propagandistic than many American films of the era.

Why does Thompson argue against biblical films, and what does he say often happens to even the biggest hits of the genre?

He dislikes nearly all biblical films, feeling the Bible is better left as a book to read. He argues that even massive biblical hit films like Ben Hur fade from memory quickly and aren't being watched anymore, showing their lack of lasting impact.

What does Thompson say the purchase of MGM by Amazon signifies about the film industry's future?

He says it shows the primacy of back catalog & streaming over theatrical releases. While Amazon may still fund films, their main incentive is to exploit MGM's library across their streaming platform over the next decade.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Introduction and background

David Thompson provides background on himself - born in London in 1941, moved to the US in 1975 to teach at Dartmouth, then moved to San Francisco as a freelancer. Has loved movies since childhood. Foster introduces David, praises his writing and perspective as an outsider providing critical view of America.

05:03

😟 Concerns about the film industry today

David chooses to end the book discussing Tarantino and Scorsese's recent films, which he found problematic. David prefers quality TV over recent films, sees streaming as the future. America needs a great film about its racism crisis. Film culture may be shifting away from theaters.

10:03

😊 David's writing process and omissions

David wishes he could have included chapters on Max Ophuls, Chris Marker, Michael Powell in the book. Notes some directors he personally likes but understands why they weren't included. Wanted to bring attention to some lesser known quality films and directors.

15:04

😏 David's perspective as a foreigner

David discusses his lifelong fascination with America and its culture from afar in London. Still feels like an outsider in some ways, is more critical of the country now. This shapes his perspective writing about American film.

20:05

😖 Discomfort discussing marginalized filmmakers

David felt uncomfortable having to categorize female and minority directors separately. These groups likely make the most interesting films now. Wants to be able to discuss them without labels, but understands the awkward necessity currently.

25:06

😳 Evaluating difficult directors and censorship concerns

David refuses to censor Allen and Polanski despite their personal controversies. Most directors have bad personal track records. But understands many now find even Belle de Jour unshowable. Could threaten fantasy in film.

30:07

😡 Defending Riefenstahl and Hawks

David explains including Riefenstahl by arguing Triumph of the Will, while terrifying, uses fascistic imagery also used in American film. Foster pushes back, disturbed. Also discusses heated disagreement on Howard Hawks appreciation.

35:07

🤔 The difficulty of modern censorship

David empathizes with Foster's struggle teaching a course on Allen and Scorsese. They discuss how to engage students who demand censorship. Need to argue against illiberal forces taking over film interpretation.

40:09

😴 Films that have not aged well

David lists films like Gentleman's Agreement, Marty that seem stale and dated now but were acclaimed in their time. Some exceptions like Gigi remain fresh to Foster. Films made for the moment, date quickly.

45:10

🙂 Hitchcock done right

Foster praises David's Hitchcock chapter for evenly praising his genius, not getting distracted by hype. David can't wait for Foster's upcoming book to scrutinize Hitchcock's 50s work.

50:11

😆 Totally opposing views on Hawks and Land of the Pharaohs

Foster explains his love for Land of the Pharaohs shows how much he disagrees with David on Hawks. Also can't stand Bringing Up Baby and Hepburn. David finds their oddcoupling delightful and promises to rewatch Pharaohs.

55:12

🎬 Discussion of the future of film

Questions from the audience on topics ranging from MGM purchased by Amazon, more diversity in casting, superhero movies, streaming helping independent films. David provides interesting perspective shifts happening.

Keywords

💡director

A director is the creative leader who oversees and orchestrates the making of a film. This video focuses extensively on famous film directors like Martin Scorsese and their works. It analyzes their styles, influences, flaws, and contributions to cinema.

💡auteur

An auteur is a filmmaker who imposes a strong personal creative vision on their films. The video praises Scorsese as the archetypal American auteur who defined a generation of filmmaking.

💡streaming

Streaming refers to the technology of delivering film and video content over the internet to be viewed online. The speakers discuss how streaming is changing viewing habits and poses an existential threat to traditional theatrical film distribution.

💡me too

The Me Too movement against sexual abuse and harassment is discussed as having influenced cultural attitudes and making many older films seem outdated or problematic now.

💡political correctness

Political correctness refers to using language and depicting content that does not exclude or offend groups based on race, gender, sexuality etc. The speakers admit to grappling with political correctness norms while writing about films.

💡editing

Editing is the process of assembling raw footage into a coherent film narrative. One speaker mentions arguing with his editor about meeting political correctness standards in his writing.

💡representation

Representation refers to the depiction in media of groups based on race, gender, sexuality etc. There is much discussion about the historical lack of representation of women and minorities among famous directors.

💡cancellation

Cancel culture refers to boycotting public figures due to questionable personal behavior or beliefs. There is apprehension expressed about classic films being "cancelled" because of their directors' biographies.

💡censorship

Censorship is the suppression of content considered immoral or politically unacceptable. The speakers strongly oppose censoring controversial old films, while debating how to address their problematic elements.

💡provocation

Provocation means stimulating strong reactions, especially anger or controversy. One speaker praises directors who boldly provoke audiences and push social boundaries through their films.

Highlights

I chose those films simply because, as I was writing the book, they were the two, I thought most impressive

For several years I have felt, that the things i could see on, television long form series, streaming series everything from say, the wire which was one of the early, versions, to underground railroad playing now, which i think is a masterpiece, i found those series, many of which went on years and many, many hours, i found the more impressive more, involving, than the movies playing in the theaters

Our movies have to try and deal with, this they have to try, and find a new kind of american dream a, new kind of american hope that we can, believe in

Just don't think that everything is, going to be a continuation of what we, have, today

Sooner or later most people do something, they're ashamed of, but i'll be i'll be entering too, judgmental and puritanical a period

Biblical films are the end of the road, for me, and and i there's none of them i like

Try finding, someone who's seen ben hur lately

I didn't get him i don't get it i, like, land of the pharaohs and the thing, bringing up baby drives me wild, i i i i can't i can't tolerate it

If if howard hawks, ideal woman is lauren mccall, he and i don't have the same tastes

I have great, deal of trouble with superhero films

I prefer films made according to narrative, structures that are not nearly as, popular today

Christan bale is my, favorite actor i, i i follow what he does, devotedly

The son of a long deceased member, who was called the dentist of broadway, and we got a file of got a lot, hundreds of pounds of stuff but he sent, the records for one of his patients, archie leech, so we have when 20s, so we have cary grant's dental records

If i'd had known tonight you were such a, cary grant fan i want to hold them up on, the, zoom but uh yeah you can see his teeth, and everything

Really do yourselves a favor and buy, this delicious book, a light in the dark a history of movie, direct of, of movie directors published by knock, the best there is so it's beautifully, produced, it's a superb book really delicious

Transcripts

take away magda

okay well welcome everyone and i'm so

thrilled uh

first of all i have to thank foster

because foster

helps me a great deal without him i

don't know how i could put this together

and um uh mark barron who has helped me

in the past he's been invaluable

and tonight's guest is david thompson

and i'd love to introduce him

and david are you okay i don't

i don't let me see if i can i'm waiting

to be introduced

okay and tell us about yourself and then

uh

foster will take over well i was born

in london as the bombs fell in 1941

i came to this country uh in 1975

i taught at dartmouth then i moved

to san francisco and i've been a

freelance

ever since and since the age of about

four

uh i had to see movies my parents took

me to see

henry v the olivier version

i was terrified at it i couldn't

understand it

i had to be taken out in tears but as

soon as i got into the lobby i said

take me back take me back i want to be

frightened again

so i have this kind of obsessive

compulsive relationship with the movies

and i think most people of my sort of

age do

and i've been extremely lucky and that i

have just about

managed to make a living talking about

them writing about them

and teaching them and that kind of thing

and here i

am your guest i'm very happy to be here

and i'm very pleased to be conducting

this interview i'm a huge fan of david's

work

we do the same thing we're competitors

but i don't feel that way at all

he is unique in what he does and this

book

is that we're talking about tonight a

light in the dark

a history of movie directors it is

written with such

snap and verve and energy

and david makes writing seem so easy

just flows off the page

what i love about of the writing is

like me david is a very opinionated guy

but he presents his opinions in a way

that

is very open you realize that he would

be

open to argument and discussion he's not

set

in other words here it is and no

discussion no he this is my opinion do

you have a different opinion

let's argue which is which is wonderful

he invites you to argue

off the page and as you read the book i

think you'll find

that sometimes you will want him and

that that's just terrific

so at any rate i want to start uh david

actually with the end of the book

yeah i'm not not at the beginning you

end

what is in a sense a very good

overview of the history of film

directors

with two recent films uh tarantino's

once upon a time in hollywood and martin

scorsese

the irishman which bring us up to date

to recent movies

you have serious reservations about both

films

why did you choose to end the book with

those

two films in particular well

um first of all great to see you again

foster and thank you for your

introduction and thank you for having me

and

thank you for being who you are um

i chose those films simply because

as i was writing the book

they were the two

[Music]

i thought most impressive uh

in a way most portentous films that were

available

at that time i finished writing the book

sort of as they came out and as you

indicate

uh while they clearly are the work of

extraordinary

directors who have done great things in

the past

scorsese especially i would say

um i found them both

very problematic and

they for me embodied what i find to be

a great dilemma that we face

looking at our screens now which is that

for several years i have felt

that the things i could see on

television long form series

streaming series everything from say

the wire which was one of the early

versions

to underground railroad playing now

which i think is a masterpiece

i found those series

many of which went on years and many

many hours

i found the more impressive more

involving

than the movies playing in the theaters

and i think it's very interesting to ask

ourselves whether

now that we're feeling better about

ourselves our health

our cities are we gonna go back

to the theaters or have we picked up

an alternative habit that of staying in

our own room which has many advantages

which seems a lot cheaper than going to

the movies and watching

the new series that come along

very variable in quality but when

they're good

i would contend they're absolutely

extraordinary and here we are

at a great crisis

in america's relationship with racism

and it cries out for a masterpiece film

a film that everybody can watch

and feel terrified by

shattered by but enormously interested

in

and the film comes along on long-form

television

and you cannot really conceive

that underground railroad would have

been done

for theaters and i think that indicates

that the culture of watching

storytelling on screens is moving

on to a new format but in a way your

selection of those

two films by masterful contemporary

film directors and the two films you

found somewhat lacking or disappointing

or dare i say not

completely relevant was that accidental

or symptomatic of a

larger turn in the fortune of the motion

picture

well it's a fascinating question and i

can't give even

an opinionated definitive answer to it

but i mean if you take scorsese who i

think was about

75 when he made the irishman

an enormously distinguished career

several great films

he was for a long time

the american auteur the american film

director that young people were probably

most likely

to name and

he sort of got the idea that the

irishman was going to be

his swan song it would be the gangster

film to end all gangster films

he developed extraordinarily expensive

technology so that he could play with

the characters ages

and he spent about 200 million dollars

on it

well the film didn't get that money back

or anything like it

and i really don't believe in movies

that cost that much anymore i think

there is a degree

of vanity and pretension in a venture

that big i much prefer the idea that

someone might make something simply

something small like nomad land for

instance which

you know obviously cost a tiny fraction

of that

and which i think made a deeper impact

on a lot of people because it showed

them a kind of life

that they had not really seen on screen

before whereas we had seen

the irishman before that's what i

thought i thought it was

very accomplished it is but i had seen

it before

if not literally then figuratively

nothing new for the director and so my

feeling is though it's just a year or

two old

it's already sort of dropped from

consciousness

not well remembered from a year or two

ago

no and in other words it didn't have the

impact on the culture that let's say

taxi driver and raging ball had once

upon a time those were films

they're still there people still look at

them but they were films that

made an enormous immediate impact in

of 75 and 81 whenever they came out and

they were relevant they were for the

moment taxi driver

i saw a taxi driver very soon after i

had come to america when new york was a

pretty new place for me

and i knew being in a packed theater

watching it

in manhattan that the overlap between

the atmosphere of that audience and that

film

was uncanny and very important and very

valuable and i felt the audience felt

that too

that was not the case with the irishman

which is almost

quaint or easy or from the past

though very very accomplished absolutely

i agree with you completely

i hope that's not the only time we will

agree all evening no i want to go back

and ask another maybe unusual question

as an early one for our discussion

you your book is in a sense it's called

the history of movie directing

but in writing this enormous subject in

a

relatively trim a number of pages

not not more than 300 pages you had to

eliminate a lot

yes in on reflection are there directors

you wish you had included and i hope

there will be a part two to

uh to the book but did you make any

omissions

that now strike you as

perhaps the wrong choice or you regret

well i don't know about the wrong

choices because i think all the people

who are in the book deserve to be there

but of course a lot of other people

deserve to be there too

um i was talking to a friend only a

few days ago and he said you know the

chapter

i miss the most because i know what he

means to you

would be max office and max office

who worked in so many different

countries

never very happily never very secure in

his career

a traveler another kind of nomad

um made some of the most beautiful

poignant films ever and i would love to

have included him in the book

i would love to have included a

documentarian

and i think it would have been

the frenchman chris marker that i would

have put in there probably

uh there are many others that i would

love to

have put in there i i'm very fond of

michael powell

a director i knew well personally

and i felt that omission um

i could do several more volumes in this

ilk if if the publishers would allow me

and we'll have to see about that

now you you you don't uh

discuss my own two personal favorites

which is fine because then there's more

room in my book for me but that

is uh my two favorites are kazan and

douglas cirque

yes i i gather you don't mention serp's

name at all but i gather you do respect

kazan

oh i i think kazan is one of the

all-time great directors

of actors and and he

he was the figurehead in the late 40s

into the 50s and 60s

for a whole new way of acting in

american films the influence of which

is still with us and very important in

that way i would love to have written

about him

i knew him a little bit he was a very

tricky person

personally uh and and um

he did not like some things i wrote

about him but i would love to have

written about him properly um douglas

circ you mentioned

and and you know douglas circ

in many ways is the germanic

director who came to america and

had really the most successful career

more successful even than fritz lang and

even lubitsch uh cirque made a certain

kind of american movie

that on the face of it it's very hard to

believe a german had made them because

they are so

understanding of america i know in your

coming book on the 50s you're going to

go

crazy on cirque and you will say this

much better than i can

but from the moment he arrived here in

the early

40s as a filmmaker he was doing things

differently he was doing

things that no one else seemed to want

to do

he made a couple of some very

interesting check off adaptations which

are not well known

but then when he was at universal in the

50s and teamed up with

almost the least likely star rock hudson

he made hudson's career and he made a

certain kind

of romance about america

that they work as romances but they've

got a

quite subtle critical sense to them

there is there is the sense in his work

that we're looking at america through

the perspective of an

outsider he's not one of us and indeed

after his masterpiece imitation of life

he left us never to return yes

that film was such a hit he could have

called the shots and made

15 more melodramas but he left

he was an outsider and he saw us

critically and you just feel that in the

films

but i want to focus that now on you

you're not american born

and i felt in rereading your book

that you mention america

and see america from

somewhat of an outsider's point of view

that is you didn't grow up seeing movies

in america you talk about

seeing movies in london yes is is that

at all an accurate perception

absolutely you obviously you live here

but you're not

you're not born american um

i was in love with america from a very

early age

i'm not certain how far it went but i

believe

that my mother had a romantic feeling

for an american airman who gave me

a leather flying cap which was one of my

most treasured possessions and it was a

sort of emblem

of america and as i grew older

america to me meant jazz

crazy about jazz it meant hemingway

fitzgerald falkland those kind of

writers

and it meant the movies and i was

i yearned to come to america i didn't

really think about coming to live here

but i yearned to be in america because i

just felt from a distance

that the culture had an idealism and an

ease and a

fun and a space england was so cramped

you know

and i i wanted to be in

those places and i came much too late

but i did come eventually

and i'm still here i'm an american

citizen

most of you will not have chosen to be

an american citizen i

did however

i'm fairly alert to what's going on and

the america i dreamed of from afar and

loved from afar and loved when i came

here

it's not the same america that we have

now and

um there is a part of me now that

would certainly contemplate

going back to england for at least

extended visits i

i'm i'm like cirque if you like i i've

become

much more critical of the american

romance than i was

around and that that does filter into

this book

i think so that criticism filters into

the book

yep but it enriches it because you're

looking

at american movies and you write mostly

but not entirely about american films

from slightly detached perspective

or perspective different from somebody

born here

yeah your viewpoint would be different

from mine for instance

i no i cannot i cannot i can imagine

that but you know you said something

earlier about cirque you said

he was an outsider i have the feeling

that uh america has become more and more

a country about

outsiders i don't feel

that many people are really at home here

anymore

i think that's part of the malaise part

of the

pain and difficulty of it and i don't

know how that's going to get worked out

it's a very very big problematical area

but some way or another

our movies have to try and deal with

this they have to try

and find a new kind of american dream a

new kind of american hope that we can

believe in

and the reason i stress underground

railroad

dark dark as it is is that is telling a

message that

we need to attend to

speaking of that i i felt at

in two chapters in the book you

you say it and you certainly suggested

that you were uncomfortable even even

having to write

the chapters and that is the chapter on

women

female directors and the chapter on

minority filmmakers that those

categorizations

themselves make you uncomfortable and

they

work they describe a kind of

marginalization

while they there's an attempt to

overcome it they almost

emphasize it my rug those two chapters

gave you some discomfort

just in terms of the labeling i mean not

discomfort because i didn't want to talk

about those

directors discomfort that

one sort of is obliged to take them on a

separate chapters i mean

we should not need to separate women and

men directors

one reason we do is because the movies

hollywood laid down a culture for us

in which superior powerful man

gazed at and fantasized over

women that is one of the chief reasons

why

being female in america is so difficult

and why being

a female filmmaker is so difficult

and same applies to people of

color i think that

almost by virtue of the difficulty

those categories that people find

themselves in now they are probably

going to make the most interesting

films i mean clearly underground

railroad

could not have been made by a white

director

for a long time we lived in a film

culture where

no black director would have had the

opportunity to make a film like that

you know because it's a big film it's

like 10 hours at least

um that's changing and that's good and

that's great

but i want to be able to talk about

barry jenkins

as a film director not a black film

director because that is

that is bringing in the framework of a

kind of ghetto that i want to shatter

and throw away

he is a film director a great film

director i think

but at the moment we're still dealing in

terms of those categories

absolutely and we and there's enormous

awkwardness because of it

and you know i i think that many film

writers i'm sure it's happened to you

too

have been told by editors i don't think

you can quite say that or i don't think

you could do that

you know because there are so many

delicate feelings out there

well there are so many delicate feelings

because we've behaved so badly

for so long and we've got to get over

that

and you know films

have always been about attractive people

about romance with an element of

sexuality in them

and that should not be denied you can't

look at a douglas cert film you can't

look at written on the wednesday

without knowing that robert stack

rock hudson dorothy malone are very

attractive people

they're very uneasy unhappy people but

they're very attractive people

now to say somebody in a movie of

whatever sex whatever gender choice

is attractive is a problematic thing

these days

to what extent did you find yourself

writing

under the ages of cancer

culture and all of the other identity

politics that we're struggling with now

to what extent did you find yourself

censoring

your own sentences and not allowing

yourself

to say things you might have said three

four

five ten years ago oh it's

is that a fair question it's absolutely

fair question and it's there

and i had talks with my editor on the

book

in which he said you know you tend as i

did

you tend to talk about a film director

as a he

it's very simple to change that and it

is

and that kind of change needs to be

made and it needs to be made on not just

sentences about filmmakers about

sentences about

every walk of life in this country and

it's it's a long

hard slog to get that done and there are

a lot of people who resist it and object

to it and are

very insecure over it but yes i felt

that

i felt that pressure and i i simply

don't believe

there is a a writer on film

these days who doesn't feel that kind of

pressure

did you feel at any moment

why am i writing about white men

at a time when white men are being

pushed off their

pedestal of cultural power most of your

book is written about the wonderful work

of

white male directors starting from

with dw griffith and fritz long and

and genre war going right up to martin

scorsese and

quentin tarantino that's your subject

yes

men have made most of the great films

that is that is a

historical fact well it it's it

certainly is and i

i tried to do what i could to leven that

and

and you know i mean you say that

the chapter on black directors felt a

little uneasy uncomfortable

i know what you mean there was another

way in which i love doing it and which i

welcome doing it

and i love being able to talk about a

director like carl franklin say

who is not widely esteemed not nearly as

widely esteemed as he could be and

should be

part of those chapters for me the

pleasure of it is

bringing some names forward and some

film titles that

the audience will not know readily

and saying you know that's a film that

you should

uh seek out a girl who walks home

alone at night by anna liliamo a film

that cost about fifty thousand dollars

black and white

wonderful film uh i made a

a pitch for that and and for other films

too but you

you david you were very frank in those

two chapters you said some of the work

of female directors i was asked to write

about i don't like their work

well i do like their films and you said

i know spike lee is important but i

don't have a strong response to his work

i trust carl franklin i mean

it's part of being opinionated that i

have as much right to say

i didn't like a film was that i do like

it though and i think

you know anyone who's a historian like

you a teacher

you know how necessary it is

to let students know let your readers

know that while you love

these films you really don't like those

films so much so that

you are one of the great authorities on

otto premanger a great director another

man who could have been in the book

and otto preminger i think

i'm sure you think is a lot better than

stanley kramer

a director with whom he could be

compared because they'd take on big

social political juice and perimeter is

just streets ahead

you know that's my opinion i think it

goes too

far more sophisticated yes absolutely

but

i did notice with the me too culture

did in there was a discomfort

when you were writing about lewis

boomwell

who would certainly not pass the me to

test at least in terms of his subject

matter i don't know about his private

life

but his subject matter yeah you

do describe some delicious scenes in

bloom well

well these foods would not pass the

current litmus test

there's a i certainly felt this while i

was doing the book you asked about a

particular moment

i knew that i had to do lewis benoit

because

he's almost the inventor of surreal

cinema

and a personal favorite

and i knew i had to write about bel de

jour which probably

one of his two or three favorite films

for me

and i started writing about bel du jour

and i realized that i was

falling into the sexual fantasy that the

film is based upon

and i realized and it was quite a

shocking realization that a film that

was made in what 1966 i think

um i don't think that film could be made

today

i think it's still a masterpiece i think

it was an extraordinary event when it

played in 66

i don't believe that bunuel were alive

today

and if catherine de niro was still the

age she was in that film

i don't think they'd be allowed to make

that film

or that it would play in our theaters

now that

that is a really shocking

disturbing thing because that could

threaten to take away

the the fantasy roots of film

altogether and and

i don't know how we're going to work

that out it's a huge

approach if we submit romance and

sexuality

to the litmus test of political

correctness

we may throw the whole thing out the

window nothing will be acceptable

foster i have a serious fear

that the thing you and i probably love

the most

could be thrown out the window i think

that i think that we're in a culture

that could say well you know

i don't think we need the movies we're

going to move

and and you know we have to remember the

movies came out of nowhere

for centuries in our history we didn't

know what they were

we didn't know what a photograph is and

a lot of what we're talking about comes

from the nature and the origin

of the photograph itself the thing that

you can hold up in your hand as a piece

of reality

and dream about it and just as

films came into being i seriously

believe

they could go out and be the automobile

you know i mean america for decades

believe the automobile was as vital as

anything else in the society i think

it's quite possible

we can see it now the automobile could

go

and you know it's not that there won't

be substitutes for it

but transportation in the broadest sense

but the damage the automobile has done

to us

it may kill us more surely than all the

wars put together

so you know this

this enterprise we're in can be

overtaken by

change quicker than you can imagine and

we're talking about

the pandemic and people not going to

theaters and people

may not ever return to theaters in the

same number as before

out of the habit good as you're saying

good good material on tv

better than what you pay 15 or 20

dollars for at the theater

i was mentioning beforehand not very

tactful of me i went to see

i'm ashamed to admit godzilla in 3d

because i love 3d i hated the movie

there was nobody in a big theater

three people i went to see the father

recently in san francisco film i like

very very much

and i went with my wife and there was

one other person

in the theater and you know people are

saying oh i can't wait to go back

to theaters in fact it's been possible

to go back to theaters for some time

people are not going

and they're not going we're not going i

was delighted

throughout the book you have a wonderful

balance between telling us a

little bit about the biography of each

of the main directors you write about

and the connection between biography and

work

to what extent does it become a

challenge

in the current moment to give the

director

a pass on being a good person in order

to be able to

discuss his work what if the director is

a monster

i think most people would have said

fritz long was not a nice guy

he you even intimate he may have killed

his first wife

he made some great movies does one thing

have any impact on the other

can't we appreciate his films and say he

wasn't a very good person

well look we we have two directors at

least

alive more or less working

or ready to work polanski

and woody allen um

i think they both had extremely variable

careers

but i believe both of them

made some great films and i

personally refuse to

outlaw them on the grounds of what we

think we know about them

i i've always thought that woody allen

is a

dark secretive person i i think in the

same way polanski is a dark

outrageous person uh

i've lived enough in the world of film

to know that most directors are tough

ruthless

selfish and with a pretty bad track

record

personally and i

will not throw the whole nature of

cinema

out because it has encouraged some bad

people

it's deeply vexing problem um and

and i mean i don't i suspect

in new york at the moment a theater

showing a woody allen film would

probably

be picketed even one of woolly allen's

great films and there are

i think there are there are a number

here absolutely great films

and this is a man who has not been

charged and convicted

of anything uh he may have behaved

strangely

i i think that what happened with sunni

was a

pretty tasteless move i i will leave it

at that

uh but i've got to tell you i know

a lot of film directors who behaved as

badly in the past and no one ever

noticed or spoke about it because the

climate was completely

different but does it does that

knowledge that we think we have

force us or compel us to re-evaluate the

work

in the light of personal revelations

i would say fundamentally no i think it

can enrich

your understanding of the work take

howard hawks

howard hawkes made films that were

universally found to be entertaining

howard hawks was a chronic womanizer

uh if you knew every detail about how he

treated everyone he had

sex with it's when it comes to i think

you'd be

horrified the films are still hilarious

brilliant smart and i'm not going to say

they're not

just because of that possibility that

private side to it

people are people and

sooner or later most people do something

they're ashamed of

but i'll be i'll be entering too

judgmental and puritanical a period

we certainly are we're losing a sense of

humor even a sense of

balance or proportion i agree with you

entirely and

and i mean a lot of what you're talking

about

is generally described as the liberal

interpretation of these

people's lives don't forget

what that prejudice could look like

if it was taken over by illiberal forces

and then your room you're reminding

yourself

of the way in germany in the 30s and in

the world controlled by germany later

people were outlawed with maximum

prejudice

because people disapproved of how they

behaved

very very dangerous territory very

dangerous

yes to bring it to a very personal

moment

i had offered a course casually for next

fall

at the college called city boys

the new york films of martin scorsese

and woody allen

great question want to take it well no

and my

my chair in consultation with my chair

she said and i

said myself i feel i've made two errors

i can't call it city boys

because that will offend some people the

boys

he said yep that should be taken out and

i said i think

woody allen would cause dissension i ask

students and some of the students said i

would pick at your course

if you open it yes yeah i'm not offering

the course

well i'm sorry happening yeah but i mean

what do

what do you do with those students how

how do you talk to them do you do you

enter into an argument with them about

it

i i tried to tactfully i should

i did try to do tactfully yeah i tried

to be sensitive i said

i don't think that's fair but we're not

going to offer the course now because i

didn't we have enough controversy

but uh at school obviously i didn't want

to go into that

well you know it's so interesting um

roman polanski

is is as verboten

as woody allen in in many respects he

has

a film his most recent film which i've

not seen

which you can't see in this country

because he's roman

polenski at the same time

within the period we're talking about a

book came out on chinatown the making of

chinatown a very good book i thought

bestseller i mean you know

it's a schizophrenic attitude because i

think most people who've seen it

know that chinatown was a fabulous

film a wonderful portrait of la and of

america at a certain time

and yet i don't know that you could play

it in a movie theater

for those reasons very bizarre situation

now not that i want to fall into being

guilty of what i'm accusing

others of but i did have a difficult

moment

at one point in the book yeah with you

yeah when you i perceived it

as a defense of laini riefenstral

i understand she is a powerful filmmaker

but i feel she used her art in the

service of evil

and that she was guilty

um i mean we're playing out the

the issues we've just been talking about

i

i drew lenny riefenstahl in

to the part of the book where i was

talking about female directors and one

of the reasons i did was because

it's not only that she was a most

remarkable cinematic stylist

she made a film in

which she told the nazi party

how to stage its rally so that she could

make the film

she wanted that's breathtaking

nerve and confidence and goal

you know i mean not many people messed

around with those guys

when they wanted something she did

i think triumph of the world is a

terrifying film

although it's impossible for me

not to see it in a post-1945

feeling we know what that led to

therefore we immediately say well

the film is evil i'm not sure the film

is evil

i'm not sure the film is so different

from a number of films that were made in

america in the 30s

and that are being made now because

there is a fascistic

element in the celebration of force

and uniforms and guns that has always

been there

in film i understand exactly what you're

saying about trump

the will um

i would say though on the other hand and

i suspect you'd agree

that historically culturally every

angle you can think of we have to keep

looking at triumph with the will

yeah oh i agree i would never want to

silence to understand

what happened show it to classes all the

time

yeah never never dream of censoring that

film or laney reference troll

while saying i don't approve of her but

i would never censor her

no if you feel i was defending her then

i

i take that very seriously and and uh

you may well be right and i made a

mistake i didn't mean to defend

her i've tried to say what i was trying

to do

but you are a very sensitive and smart

reader and if you were offended and

troubled i take that seriously

maybe i need to go back and

but i do want to talk about our our uh

very decided difference over howard

hawks whom you love

i really appreciate your love i've

re-read with great relish your chapter

you communicate exactly what it is you

like about him

if i tell you that my favorite howard

hawks film is land of the pharaohs

you'll know where i stand with regard to

howard hawks

yes i don't get him i don't get it i

like

land of the pharaohs and the thing

bringing up baby drives me wild

i i i i can't i can't tolerate it

why does it drive you wild because i

mean you know it's fabulously

written it's beautifully directed and

organized

you know cary grant and catherine

hepburn are

god she gets on my nerves she does

did she always get on your nerves or

just in that i don't think so my

favorite

katherine hepburn performance is

suddenly last summer

oh wow well we do have big differences

i find her so shrill and so i find it

forced

yeah um and if if howard hawks

ideal woman is lauren mccall

he and i don't have the same tastes i

think

he idealized nearly every woman he ever

met

but what about you but you i i love the

chapter because your

your passion for this director comes you

explain it so clearly and crisply with

such

verve i just don't share the enthusiasm

but what do you think of land of the

pharaohs which i love

i i'll tell you about me and land of the

pharaohs i have not seen it since it

came out

okay see it again in a beautiful scope

screen

i will i will it's written by william

faulkner after all

well okay we'll take that with a grain

of salt i think but yeah

and we look at it again yes i do now you

do you have a list of

films in one chapter

and i was fascinated by the list of

films that have dated

and become stale and don't work anymore

but they were very acclaimed during

their time

including gentleman's agreement um

going my way marty um

gigi ben hur bridge on the river kwai

the quiet man

and some of that list i would couldn't

agree with you more

but i must defend gigi ben hur

and bridget on the river why i think

those hold up

and they do what they're supposed to be

doing okay musical a great epic and a

great warfare

well we are a perfect odd couple in many

respects

can't change your mind about it but you

make the point that all of those films

are so settled in this point of view

that they're again there's no ambiguity

or mystery or room

for discussion they're so clear about

what they're going to be doing

i've also got to say that that um

i don't want to offend anyone but

biblical films are the end of the road

for me

and and i there's none of them i like

and you know um

that we have a bible as a book to read

that's fine

but i i really do not like the way it's

been turned into so many

terrible films and um you know

it's very interesting as you know benjo

was a huge hit when it came out

it won so many oscars you try finding

someone who's seen ben hur lately

uh i i think a lot of the films that are

in that list

gigi may be an exception i don't know

people who see bridge on the river kwai

anymore uh gentlemen's agreement i

equally i i i don't know i may be wrong

but i i think i think films are made for

now

always and they date very fast

and what's so wonderful about the medium

is that some of them

are still fresh 100 years later

some some some retain their freshness

and the two of us could agree that

they're still great

there are those films there are those

films a big thing

there are those films i i was very happy

with your

chapter on hitchcock which seems to me

very fair you

you praise his genius for what it is not

more not less

and don't allow the the rhetoric the

meteor rhetoric to interfere

with the best of the work i can't wait

for your book because obviously

hitchcock is at his best in the 50s

absolutely and i make that point

i'm sure and i really want to see what

you're going to say

and i will get you a show and i will

hold your feet to the fire

okay okay uh

marge i think we can open the floor to

questions from the house

great thank you so much um

one question i had for david is out of

the news

what do you make of mgm getting bought

by amazon

and what does that mean for films

well it's a sign of the time so to say i

mean for

foster and me and for many others

mgm was like the flagship of the golden

age of hollywood

and to have it passing into this kind of

ownership

is it's sad it's inevitable

i mean what it really means is the

reason they have

bought mgm is that they are buying the

library

of films and particularly tv shows

that uh mgm possesses

which will then pass into streaming

through amazon's platform and that's why

they've done it

it's amazing that they're putting as

much money as they are into it because

that indicates they think

people are going to watch these films

and shows for

at least 10 years to make a profit for

them

and you know one has to respect the

people at amazon on

making that kind of decision because

that's what they're good at

um i think it will

be a little less likely that amazon

makes

interesting movies which they like to

say they're in the business

of doing i think they're going to peddle

that library

very hard and they're going to make more

product

that will go into that library in the

same way

thank you a question from freddie tv

movies are showing more international

married couples

do you see this expanding into more

widescreen movies

it better i watched the pelican brief

again recently if you remember the film

in which

denzel washington and julia roberts

are in partnership to solve a crime

it's it's a routine film but it's okay

it's watchable

but it cries out

for those two to at least kiss

at the end they've become pals they've

they're fond of each other the audience

i think is begging for it

and whenever that film was made 1990s

sometime i can't remember exactly

it was deemed that they should not do it

the there's a hug but that's it

and for god's sake you know

we've got to get on with life as a

reality

yes there should be more and more

interracial marriage which will of

course lead to more and more interracial

divorce

because we cannot believe and kill

ourselves that america

is simply content with marriage but yes

more more and susannah has a really good

question the old

who do you want to have dinner with

three directors living or dead who would

you want to

oh three directors living or dead

okay well i would say jean renoir the

frenchman because i think he was one of

the warmest most humane

people i'm gonna go for howard hawks

and i think i'm gonna go for jane

campion who is

the female director of the last decade

that i've been most

moved and excited by so i would go for

those three

any questions anybody from the floor

uh ted asks what do you make of super

films

um are they targeting their only

marketable demographic

here's what i feel i think the medium is

super

and i don't think the heroes need to be

super

i like i like films about people who

remind me

of me not

stick figures born and dressed in

armor all their lives i i i i have great

deal of trouble with superhero films

thor though kenneth branagh had

great reaction did very well

oh a lot of these films are going to do

very well you know

uh there's no question about that and

and

i feel myself pretty archaic

in my tastes uh i i i

prefer films made according to narrative

structures that are not nearly as

popular today

you know uh mark x asked

do you think the streaming world will

change the type of films that get made

and will

open up more to the independent

filmmaker

i think that

i think it's always hard for the

independent filmmaker and i think that

when someone like

amazon is throwing that kind of money

around

you know that people who are ready to

make a film for next to nothing like the

fifty thousand dollars we talked about

those people are gonna have a harder and

harder time

having their films seen on the other

hand

the internet is a place where it's more

and more possible to see

strange rare cheap low-budget

independent

difficult films so the culture is

shifting all together

it's all part of the way that screens

are everywhere

there's a screen down the road at the

multiplex of course

but there's a screen in your hand your

telephone

is a screen and who it may not be long

before that telephone is actually

embedded

in your hand it has become such a vital

part

of your life and your being so

the changes are going to be

extraordinary and and

and just don't think that everything is

going to be a continuation of what we

have

today uh catherine asks you can

recommend

your favorite screen actors to us

my favorite screen actors uh at the

moment

i would say christian bale is my

favorite actor i

i i follow what he does

devotedly in the history of the movies

kerry grant would join that company um

among actresses i'm crazy about margaret

sullivan an actress who's not

that well known these days um

i love betty davis quite fond of nicole

kidman even

i want to tell you a funny cary grant

story yes

we have a we got a donation to the lambs

from the son of a long deceased member

who was called the dentist of broadway

and we got a file of got a lot

hundreds of pounds of stuff but he sent

the records for one of his patients

archie leech

so we have when 20s

so we have cary grant's dental records

[Laughter]

you should treasure them

if i'd had known tonight you were such a

cary grant fan i want to hold them up on

the

zoom but uh yeah you can see his teeth

and everything

i suspect when he came to america

because he'd been pretty poor in england

his mouth was completely redone

that's a measure of what happened to

people who wanted to be film stars

well this lamb um he was a dentist who

was right on 42nd street and he was the

first

person to take a space in the brand new

empire state building

yeah and he treated everybody and so he

saved this record because

he and carrie were longtime friends yeah

yeah

probably violate some privacy laws today

but everybody's dead soon

so when you come visit the lambs i will

lay that on youtube

kevin i have i have three brief

questions

okay sorry for uh for david i i wanted

to mention

david that uh i was interested in the

book that you give

great pride of place to um

bonnie and clyde as a really watershed

movie

has an enormous influence on american

filmmakers

after the 1967 date do you hold to that

strictly this is a really important

turning point

if people was to do a book about the 10

most important american films

that would be there that would be one of

them it changed

so much and and it brought young people

into filmmaking in a new way

it it fused sex and violence

and and it it made our attitudes to

violence much more complicated

so but but yeah and it's still a

knockout film

i think that's that's not one of the

dated pieces that hasn't grown

no not

yes absolutely i i was interested in

your chapter on nicholas ray

that you say none of his films was

perfect they were

all flawed and yet all interesting

among the flawed works is there anything

that gets close to being almost

completely right

well i i think i'm deeply fond

of all that of cause i think it's got

some problems but i

i still watch that film um i love in a

lonely place

i love bit of victory i love they live

by night his first film

so i i'm fond of a lot of them but

johnny guitar

you see johnny guitar for me not so much

no

i think it's really overdone but um you

know

other people love it i think it's his

best film

you write in the orson welles chapter

that he

he was a director who courted failure

he didn't want to have a successful

career failure was

his way of being he wouldn't have known

how to do

this i i did not like the filmmak

at all uh i thought it was pretentious

and fussy and overdone

i thought it had no real story i thought

it made a huge mistake in that

it didn't really follow how citizen kane

was

written that is a great story

so i found the film very disappointing

and and

i think the general public did too it

got lots of nominations

but people didn't go to see it in a big

way

no they didn't and most people most

people had no idea who mank was

well there you are they were the name of

the film might have been unfortunate or

too limiting

there was a very good book recently by

sydney ladinson stern on the triple

brothers yes very good read that book

don't say no i have read it i've

interviewed i know you

okay my i just want to tell all of you

folks out there

really do yourselves a favor and buy

this delicious book

a light in the dark a history of movie

direct of

of movie directors published by knock

the best there is so it's beautifully

produced

it's a superb book really delicious i've

read

re-read every word for our second

interview

every word and i enjoyed every minute of

it

i have a huge thank you to you for your

kindness center

and to the lambs and every lamb or sheep

that was in the room thank you for being

there

thank you

thanks everybody have a good evening

thank you thank you very much david

thanks for joining us tonight thank you

so much