Rick Rubin & Elon Musk Hack Their Brain Like This - Andrew Huberman

Summary

In this wide-ranging conversation, neuroscientist Andrew Huberman discusses insights he gained while spending time with producer Rick Rubin. He noticed Rubin's habit of sitting still and thinking deeply, similar to practices by other accomplished thinkers. Huberman hypothesizes that deliberately calming the body while activating the mind can access the 'supercomputer' of our unconscious and yield creative insights. He contrasts this stillness with active movement like long runs, which also facilitate creative thought. Whether still or active, limiting external inputs allows internal ideas to emerge. Huberman shares his curiosity about how practices probing the unconscious mind may gain traction alongside meditation and rest as means of boosting creativity.

Takeaways

• 😀 Rick Rubin has a practice of spending time sitting/lying still and thinking
• 😯 Andrew Hickey's podcast provides very contextual history of rock music
• 🧠 Combining psychedelic therapy with stillness allows the mind to be very active
• 🏃‍♂️ Long runs/walks allow the body to be active while the mind wanders
• 💆‍♂️ Deliberately pairing stillness and mental activity provides unique access to creativity
• 😌 Musicians like drummers have constant inner rhythms providing creative substrate
• 📱 Overuse of phones provides sensory input that limits internal creativity
• 👂 Great ideas come from limiting external inputs and generating internal thoughts
• 🧑‍🔬 Combining body stillness and mental activity may access the unconscious mind
• 😴 REM sleep paralyzes the body while the mind remains very active

Q & A

What practice does Rick Rubin regularly engage in to generate ideas?

Rick Rubin has a practice where he spends a good amount of time just sitting and thinking or lying down and thinking. This allows him to access his unconscious mind and come up with creative ideas.

What podcast does Huberman recommend for learning about the history of rock music?

Huberman recommends the podcast 'A History of Rock Music in 500 Songs' by Andrew Hickey which provides context about what was happening in society and culture during different music eras.

What is the concept Huberman raises about divorcing mind and body function?

Huberman talks about two contrasting states - body completely still while the mind is very active versus body being very active while the mind is more passive. He hypothesizes that deliberately entering these states can access different aspects of cognition and creativity.

What other accomplished thinkers practiced forms of divorcing mind and body function?

According to Huberman, people like Elon Musk, physicist Richard Feynman, Einstein and psychiatrist Carl Hart also practiced forms of body stillness while the mind was active to generate ideas.

What role does Huberman believe the unconscious mind plays in creative thinking?

Huberman cites psychiatrist Paul Conti's concept of the unconscious as the 'supercomputer of the brain'. He believes these mind/body separation practices allow greater access between the conscious and unconscious, allowing more creative ideas to emerge.

What critique does Huberman make regarding phone/computer use and creativity?

Huberman argues that while phone use keeps the body still and mind active, all the input is coming from external sources. True creativity requires self-generating ideas internally and limiting outside sensory inputs.

What example does Huberman give of rhythmic activities aiding creative thinking?

Huberman discusses how his friend, musician Tim Armstrong, is constantly tuned into rhythms which allows him to always noodle on song ideas in his head. Rhythmic activities like this free up mental space for creativity.

What practice is Huberman now personally engaging in?

Huberman has started a daily practice of sitting still for 20 minutes with eyes closed, letting his mind think linearly about topics or generate ideas more spontaneously to access his unconscious.

What is the potential Huberman sees for using psychedelics therapeutically?

Huberman believes psychedelics like psilocybin could be a reliable avenue for entering these mind/body separation states and accessing unconscious creative cognition, but only in an approved clinical context.

What is Huberman's main hypothesis about these practices?

The key hypothesis is finding ways to deliberately limit sensory input while keeping the mind active allows accessing deeper levels of cognition and creativity from one's own unconscious.

Outlines

00:00

😊 Discussing the value of stilling the body and activating the mind

Paragraph 1 discusses the practice of stilling the body and activating the mind, which Andrew has observed smart people like Rick Rubin, Carl di Roth, Elon Musk, and Richard Feynman do in different ways. He describes an example of noticing Rick doing a form of this during their vacation. Andrew sees value in contrasting this still body/active mind state with the opposite active body/less directed mind state achieved during exercise.

05:01

💡 Hypothesizing connections between stillness, unconscious cognition, and creativity

Paragraph 2 puts forth an hypothesis that bringing the body into stillness, like in REM sleep or deliberate thoughtful states, allows the unconscious mind to engage more in our mental dialogue and lead to new ideas and ways of structuring thoughts. Andrew cites respected figures like Paul Kati to lend credence to the notion that the unconscious is a supercomputer and stillness permits greater access.

10:03

😃 Comparing methods for achieving productive mind states

Paragraph 3 draws comparisons between different methods that can achieve productive mind states conducive to creativity - such as psilocybin, meditation, walking, rhythmic movement, and limiting external stimuli. It highlights musicians' constant internal rhythms as a substrate of creative work. Andrew reflects on how phones provide raw creative materials but limit self-generated ideation.

Keywords

💡REM sleep

REM sleep refers to the rapid eye movement stage of sleep when the brain is very active. Dr. Huberman hypothesizes that when the body is still and the mind is active during REM sleep, meditation, or psychedelic therapy, it allows greater access to the unconscious mind which can generate new ideas.

💡stillness

Stillness refers to a state when the body is motionless in order to quiet external sensory input. Dr. Huberman notes that practices like meditation often involve stillness to access aspects of cognition and the unconscious mind. He recommends trying periods of stillness combined with conscious directed thinking.

💡unconscious mind

The unconscious mind contains thoughts, memories, and impulses outside of our conscious awareness. Dr. Huberman hypothesizes that combining bodily stillness with an active mind provides greater access to the creative potential of the unconscious.

💡cognition

Cognition refers to mental activities like thinking, reasoning, and information processing. Dr. Huberman is interested in techniques that change cognition by altering the relationship between bodily activity and mental activity.

💡psychedelic therapy

Psychedelic therapy uses psychedelic compounds like psilocybin to alter consciousness and cognition. Dr. Huberman notes the stillness of the body and activity of the mind during some psychedelic experiences is similar to meditation and REM sleep.

💡sensory input

Sensory input refers to signals received from the external world by our senses. Dr. Huberman suggests limiting sensory input through stillness allows more capacity for internally-directed consciousness and creativity.

💡linear thinking

Linear thinking involves directing one's thoughts in an orderly, logical progression. Dr. Huberman tried 20 minutes daily of eyes-closed directed linear thinking on specific topics as a stillness practice.

💡flotation tanks

Flotation tanks contain skin-temperature saltwater that provides sensory deprivation during floating. Physicist Richard Feynman used flotation tanks combined with stillness to generate ideas, much like meditation.

💡addiction

Though not directly referenced, addiction involving excessive dopamine is an underlying theme. Practices that limit external triggers and engage disciplined inner-directed cognition may help overcome addiction.

💡creativity

Fundamentally, Dr. Huberman is interested in how purposely manipulating physical and mental states can enhance creativity by accessing the normally unconscious mind. Stillness and consciousness allow creativity to emerge.

Highlights

Rick Rubin has a practice of spending time sitting and thinking or lying down and thinking

Elon Musk, Richard Feynman, Einstein, and others have practiced forms of divorcing mind and body function temporarily and deliberately

Two interesting mind-body states - body still, mind active vs body active, mind not directed

The unconscious mind can take over more of the mind-body dialogue when the body is still

Deliberate stillness can access different aspects of unconscious and cognition

Paul Kti says the unconscious is the supercomputer of the brain

Predicting rise in prominence of body still, mind active states for creativity

20 minutes a day of eyes closed sitting and thinking without external inputs

Great ideas have also come from walking and thinking

Musicians are often in a rhythmic headspace which may relate

Creativity comes from limiting sensory input and generating ideas internally

First significant highlight text

Second notable highlight text

Transcripts

this is why I'm such a fan of taking

some space from all action this is

actually something I learned from Rick

Ruben um you know I'm fortunate to call

him a close friend we we communicate

pretty much every day and I went and

spent a week with him abroad this summer

it was the worst time to travel and I

decided to go over to where he was in

Europe and just spend the week with him

we had no plan and um uh first of all on

the way over there there was nothing to

watch on the plane but there was this

Tom Petty documentary I turn it on I'm

not a huge Tom Petty fan but it was

interesting enough and then Rick Rick is

in the documentary and he's in the

documentary lying down doing the

interview typical like typical meaning

unusual for most people typical because

it's unusual for Rick to be lying down

um and I thought okay so get there I I

know his family well and I love them and

and it was really wonderful it was

beautiful it's a beautiful part of

Europe but you know I noticed so we had

this habit of of we would tread water in

the pool and listen to podcasts in the

morning um um and there's a wonderful

podcast by the way that uh we should all

be aware of I think is a history of rock

and roll in 500 songs by Andrew hickey

super nerdy it's like a getting a like a

graduate degree in rock and roll it

talks about the music but also what's

happening in like organized crime how it

impacted record sales very contextual

very cool I'm very into that lately and

I'm and this show on Netflix have you

seen Spy Ops yes which is very good

right because it's not just like shoot

them up type stuff it's it's really

about how spy operations uh let me put

it this way it can teach you a lot about

history International history and and um

geopolitical history um so um I go over

there and we do some Treading Water

listening to um podcasts I learn about

this history of of rock and roll in 500

songs podcast um we talk about a little

bit and then I noticed that you know

Rick has a practice I hope he doesn't

mind me sharing this um because I'm

about to um you know Rick has a practice

he has many practices but one of them is

he'll spend a good amount of time you

just sitting and thinking or lying down

and thinking and I it didn't occur to me

at the time

but later after I returned I thought

back to our first guest episode of my

podcast I host a guy named Carl di Roth

who's probably the the finest

bioengineer on the planet he's also a

fully active clinician psychiatrist he's

got five children he's one of these

phenoms you know that seems to be able

to do everything he's a true genius um

he went to school with uh Medical petera

and Paul kti they were all in the same

class yeah um and I know him very well

he's a colleague of mine at Stanford and

um and everyone knows he's he's a super

he's a super he's like the Michael

Jordan of Neuroscience um except he's

still active um and that is not a

statement about personality just in

terms of of successful hit rate and Carl

described a practice that he does after

he puts his kids to sleep of where he

sits deliberately sits completely still

and forces himself to think in complete

sentences and this set off a light in my

head when I realize Rick does a form of

this and Carl does a form of this if you

read the new Elon Musk book they talk

about Elon doing a form of this the

Great Richard feeman physicist Nobel

Prize winner talked about going into

flotation tanks and doing a form of this

Einstein did a form of this so what are

we talking about so I'm a neuroscientist

but I'm certainly not smart as any of

those

guys what we're talking about is body

still mind active now I've become in

increasingly curious about psychedelic

therapies um one of which is and by the

way only in a clinical context Etc

legality Etc not in kids Etc but the

practice is essentially um macro doil

ayin but with the eye mask on completely

still mind very active Okay contrast

that to a different Behavior SL protocol

that I'm very familiar with which is I

like to to do long runs or rocks on

Sunday body very active mind not

directed at anything in particular

sometimes I'll do it without a book or

podcast sometimes they do it with a

combination of

both many people talk about swimming or

in the shower or um cycling some sort of

rhythmic movement drumming the great Joe

Strummer was really big on campfires he

you know I was going to mention this

earlier but I'll mention it now that as

an alternative to alcohol consumption

get your friends together around a fire

by the way the fire light this light

from fire does not disrupt the Circadian

system this has actually been shown

candle light Moonlight fire light as

bright as it is it's just very low Lux

so that's where great things happen

independent of alcohol right around a

campfire that's it goes way back in our

lineage so there these two states of

mind and body that I find fascinating to

the point of being intriguing to the

point of having modified what I do now

because they they are the inverse of one

another body completely still or close

to completely still mind very active

could be wasil cybin but that's not the

protocol I'm recommending I'm talking

about some very very smart extremely

accomplished people who all did the same

thing the other is body very active mind

isn't still but is not deliberately um

channeled to any particular linear kind

of story or something like

that there's a state in sleep where our

body is literally paralyzed and the

brain is extremely active it's called

rapid eye movement sleep so I'm s of

raising a FL for this potential protocol

practice I don't have any peer-reviewed

science to support what I'm about to say

but I have enough examples of extremely

accomplished people now in front of me

to realize that there's something

special about divorcing mind and body

function temporarily deliberately

sitting there and just thinking and

recently I had a conversation with the

great Paul kti and the addition of the

words the great in front of him are

appropriate here he's I I believe based

on my observation of his clinical work

and and uh intellectual Acumen that he's

the finest psychiatrist of our age

clearly integrating from so many

backgrounds has worked with a ton of

interesting people coming on the podcast

in December amazing I and he's just

phenomenal right um not just about

trauma but about everything personality

types narcissism gaslighting I mean

people throw those terms around like

crazy proba will tell you what it

actually means okay what those terms

actually mean but the ability to think

and to access the unconscious Paul

refers to the unconscious as the

supercomputer of the brain for the UN

the unconscious mind and the conscious

mind are always in a dialogue but here's

the theory here's the the hypothesis

that when we bring our body into states

of Stillness in REM sleep in these

deliberate states that I just described

that these other people actively engage

in and have for a long time that the

unconscious mind can start to take over

a larger percentage of that conversation

and we have access to new ideas new ways

of structuring thought Etc and I don't

think one require psilocybin to do it

but I do think that is one Avenue into

it reliable um that's reliable it also

carries certain hazards right uh because

it's it's like being put on a mental

rocket ship to some extent it's not like

DMT but um very little control over

where one's cognition goes although

there is some in there um anyway I just

wanted to throw this up on the wall

because it's always fun to talk about

new things and kind of what's coming

what I think is coming next I think if I

were to make a prediction I think in the

next two years you're not just going to

hear about meditation non sleep deep

rest um something I'm a big fan of Yoga

Nidra hypnosis but also whatever we want

to call this you'll probably come up

with a better name than I can body still

mind active states to access different

aspects of our unconscious and cognition

and I must say that we do this with the

phone sorry I just uh because I realized

you were about to say something and when

you speak you say interesting things and

I learned cosplay laring Lear don't put

those ones as the most interesting oh no

you say many no there's no well in terms

of new terms new terms yeah yeah

Newcastle yeah sorry those weren't the

most Concepts I but I'm learning is the

point I wasn't I wasn't being sarcastic

um that when we sit and we're just

scrolling yeah we're we're we're more or

less body still mind active but guess

what none of it's coming from within

it's all coming from the outside so

whether or not it's Sil cybin in the IM

ask or or Carl sitting their eyes closed

deliberately still thinking or Fineman

in the in the salt equilibration chamber

you know the the float flotation tank or

or Rick lying there thinking whatever it

is he happens to be thinking whatever

amazing album he's going to now you know

help produce more Einstein I

mean you know we can think of the phone

and the scrolling as as lending itself

to less ability to focus in ADH but just

the real crime the real insult to

humanity for me made the real cost is

what about all the creative imagination

of things that come from inside that

could be generated by by people in that

time so I I'm I've started doing a

practice of 20 minutes a day of just

sitting and eyes closed typically

sometimes it's right as I wake up but

usually it's not and just trying to

think about certain topics and hold

those topics in a kind of a linear way

or sometimes just letting stuff geyser

up anyway um some people might think of

this as like completely um wacko Woo new

Agy stuff but the list of names I I read

off there people that do that and have

been doing this for a long time and

attribute this practice as one of the

major sources of their best ideas is a a

non-trivial list when I think about that

there's a few different ways that are

slightly similar uh the number of people

who've had great ideas whilst walking

and attribute an awful lot of their

success to walking and thinking I that

you're talking body still mind active

but it's like body mostly still it's not

exactly like or or perhaps there is a

unique way to access this too maybe it's

a different channel to a different brain

State maybe it's a different channel to

the same brain State like I love doing

long rocks and long runs on Sunday

that's my goal on Sunday get out as much

as possible into the nature and just

move in some sort of repetitive way like

a mu all throwing on a ruck sack cuz

petera got me into that um sometimes

it's with other people sometimes alone

sometimes I listen to a podcast

sometimes I don't sometimes in Audi book

sometimes I don't but something about

about motor rep

ition uh so this is not sets and Reps

this is not restacking the play this is

you know minimum amount of cognition re

freeing up mental space to do other

things yeah could be on the row so again

I think different people will do it

differently I've been hanging around

with a lot of musicians lately um I've

become good friends with one of my

favorite musicians songwriters Tim

Armstrong lead singer for rancid

transplants he and Travis Barker did

transplants and you know it's it um and

you know it's clear that musicians

especially drummers but other musicians

well they're always in a rhythm in their

head there actually Tim and I the other

day we we went someplace and we walked

out he's like did you hear that like do

you hear what he's like you didn't hear

that I was like well he's like you know

they had the news on and the radio on

and you know he's so tuned into the

audio environment I'm not right I'm not

that audio um oriented more visually

oriented but you know people who have an

internal Rhythm that they're they're

they're they're noodling on something in

their head I mean this is this is the

substrate of creative work right and I

and again the phone isn't evil but the

moment you're taking in sensory input

from that includes things that have

already been creative uh excuse me

created you're yeah you could argue that

those are the macronutrients that you're

going to combine for your own creative

thing the gems in the internet so

studies scientific studies for me are

interesting things on YouTube but

there's also just the raw materials of

creative work that come from limiting

sensory input and just going inside

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