Katie Debates Antizionism With Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro

Summary

This detailed discussion explores the complex relationship between Zionism, Judaism, and anti-Semitism, with a focus on the political and ideological nuances that distinguish these concepts. The dialogue delves into how Zionism utilizes propaganda to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, a stance supported by notable figures and reflected in various public statements and writings. The conversation further examines the implications of conflating Jewish identity with Israeli nationality and Zionism, highlighting the importance of decoupling these notions for a clearer understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The discourse also addresses the role of Jewish and Israeli voices in the broader conversation about peace and justice in the region, emphasizing the need for critical examination of Zionism's foundational ideologies and its impact on both Jewish and Palestinian communities.

Takeaways

• 😊 There is disagreement on whether anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, with some arguing that opposing Israel's right to exist is inherently anti-Jewish
• 😕 Zionism is seen by some as contradictory and illogical in claiming to represent all Jews worldwide
• 🧐 Propaganda and conflation of Judaism with Zionism are viewed as key to Zionism's success
• 😠 Critics argue Zionism illegitimately claims Jewish identity, history and trauma to justify itself
• 😟 Israel's self-definition as a Jewish state is seen as undemocratic by critics
• 😕 Critics argue left-wing Jewish anti-Zionism actually reinforces the conflation of Jews and Israel, helping Zionist propaganda
• 🤔 There is debate around whether Jewish voices criticizing Israel are counterproductively playing into narratives linking Jews and Israel
• 😠 Critics argue the conflict is nationalist, between Israelis and Palestinians, with Jews uninvolved
• 😟 Jewish state ideology is seen by critics as the core issue enabling conflict and oppression
• 🤔 There are calls for scholarship and advocacy exploring paths for Israel to become a normal civic democracy

Q & A

What is the main contradiction that Rabbi Shapiro sees with Zionism?

He believes the main contradiction is that Zionism claims Israel should exist as the nation state for Jews, similar to how Japan is the nation state for Japanese people or France is for French people. However, unlike those examples, not all Jews live in or have nationality in Israel, so it does not make sense to equate Israel with being the nation state for all Jews globally.

How does Rabbi Shapiro explain the propaganda behind the equation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism?

He explains that pro-Israel advocates like Netanyahu and others insist that to be against the existence of Israel as a Jewish state is to be against the existence of Jewish people overall. By equating the two, they aim to defend Zionism by attacking critics as anti-Semitic.

What does Rabbi Shapiro say is the key to defeating Zionism?

He believes the key is to decouple the concepts of Zionism and Judaism—to make clear that Zionism does not represent all Jews globally, and that one can support Jewish identity and culture while still opposing the political ideology of Zionism.

What does Rabbi Shapiro see as the core problem with Israel claiming to be the 'Jewish State'?

He sees it as making Jews worldwide into human shields for Israel, as they can then be blamed or attacked over the actions of Israel. He thinks Jews should completely distance themselves from this identity, as Israel has no right to claim it represents Jews.

How does Katie disagree with Rabbi Shapiro's view on leftist Jewish critics of Israel?

Katie feels Jewish critics play an important role in opposing Israel's actions and shifting public opinion, even if indirectly reinforces the linkage of Israel with Jews. Rabbi Shapiro sees them as 'Jane Fondas' who encourage Zionism despite good intentions.

What does Rabbi Shapiro say should be the focus of scholarship and discussion regarding Israel/Palestine?

He believes the focus should be on how to transition Israel away from being a Jewish state to a normal democracy that represents all its citizens equally, using historical precedents of countries abandoning discriminatory ideologies.

What security issue does Rabbi Shapiro say is used as an argument against a one-state solution?

He mentions that many Jews argue a single democratic state would pose a security threat. So he believes research is needed to either provide historical examples showing this is not the case, or else describe possible security mechanisms to mitigate concerns.

What does Rabbi Shapiro see as the litmus test for whether someone is truly anti-Zionist?

He argues that if someone would still oppose Israel even if there was a two-state solution that brought peace and Palestinian happiness, then they are truly anti-Zionist. If they would be satisfied with that, then he believes they are actually just focused on Palestinian rights, not opposing Zionism itself.

Why does Rabbi Shapiro argue against Jews supporting Palestinians 'as Jews'?

Because he feels it reinforces the linkage between Jews/Judaism and Israel/Zionism promoted by Zionist propaganda. He thinks Jews should oppose Israeli policies simply as human beings and Americans, while Israelis or Israeli-Americans would be the meaningful allies for Palestinians.

What does Katie feel she needs to think more about regarding Rabbi Shapiro's perspectives?

She seems conflicted between seeing the short-term value of Jewish critics in opposing Israeli human rights abuses, versus Rabbi Shapiro's argument that in the long-term this linkage inadvertently helps sustain Zionism. She wants to weigh both perspectives further.

Outlines

00:00

😐 Discussion on Zionism being contradictory, propagated through tremendous propaganda

The first paragraph discusses how Zionism is contradictory and doesn't make sense. It talks about how Zionism has worked through tremendous propaganda and the claim that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. It presents the Zionist formulation that Israel is to Jews like what France is to the French, and argues that you can't separate Jews and Israel under Zionism.

05:00

😮‍💨 Some 'anti-Zionists' are just pro-Palestinian rights, not truly opposing the ideology

The second paragraph continues on Zionism and anti-Zionism. It suggests many 'anti-Zionist' activists and groups like Jewish Voice for Peace aren't really anti-Zionist, they just care about Palestinian rights. If Zionism didn't harm Palestinians, they'd be okay with Israel. True anti-Zionism opposes the ideology itself beyond just Israel's actions.

10:03

😵‍💫 Urgency of conflict leads to lack of time for real scholarship and effort to resolve

The third paragraph argues the urgency and constant conflict related to Israel/Palestine means there is never time for real scholarship and effort towards a solution. The author argues that all the effort currently put towards one/two state discussions should go towards making Israel a normal democracy.

15:04

👀 Core problem is Israel claiming to represent all Jews globally

The fourth paragraph states the core problem is Israel claiming to represent Jews worldwide, using them as 'human shields' to justify its undemocratic actions. The solution is to force Israel to act like a normal democracy, not an ethnostate for Jews.

20:04

😡 True anti-Zionists would still oppose Israel even if it made peace with Palestinians

The fifth paragraph argues true anti-Zionists would still oppose Israel even if somehow the conflict was resolved and Palestinians were happy. Because Zionism is an ideology, not just opposition to Israeli actions. It claims Jewish supremacy and exceptionalism.

25:05

💭 Lack of serious scholarship on transforming Israel into a normal, democratic state

The sixth paragraph critiques the lack of serious scholarship providing historical precedents and studies on how to transform Israel into a normal democracy like other countries. It questions where are the efforts to convince Israelis and Palestinians this is viable.

30:06

😒 No need to use Jewish identity to advocate for Palestinian rights

The seventh paragraph continues the debate, arguing there's no need to use one's Jewish identity to advocate for Palestinian rights. This only reinforces the perception Jews are the combatant against Palestinians when the conflict is really Israelis vs. Palestinians.

35:06

🤔 More thinking required on utility of Jewish criticism of Israel in both short and long term

The final paragraph concludes Jews criticizing Israel likely helps in short term by easing accusations of anti-Semitism against non-Jewish critics. But in the long run it may reinforce Zionism's claim to represent all Jews globally. More thought is required to weigh these factors.

Keywords

💡Zionism

Zionism is the ideological movement that supports the establishment and continued existence of Israel as a Jewish homeland and nation-state. It is a core part of the debate in the video, with the guests discussing how Zionism conflates Judaism and Israel, using one to justify and speak for the other. The video calls this 'identity theft'.

💡anti-Zionism

Anti-Zionism opposes the Zionist ideology and the notion of Israel as a Jewish nation-state. The video argues that anti-Zionism is often wrongly equated with anti-Semitism by supporters of Israel. It calls for clearly distinguishing opposition to Zionism from prejudice against Jewish people.

💡propaganda

Propaganda refers to media and messaging intended to influence attitudes and advance a particular agenda, like promoting Zionism. The video claims Zionist propaganda tries to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, and conflate Israel with all Jews.

💡identity

Identity relates to groups people identify with, like nationality, ethnicity, or religion. The video critiques Zionism for conflating Jewish identity with support for Israel - hence the term 'identity theft'.

💡democracy

Democracy means rule by the people and equal rights for citizens. The video argues Zionism is incompatible with democracy because Israel claims to be both Jewish and democratic, privileging one identity.

💡human rights

The video advocates fighting Zionism partly to support Palestinian human rights and stop their oppression. This seems a bigger concern than ideological objections to Zionism.

💡activism

Activism means taking action to achieve political or social change. The video debates how Jewish activists critical of Israel may inadvertently reinforce the conflation of Jews worldwide with Israel.

💡solidarity

Solidarity refers to mutual support between groups struggling for a common cause. The video questions whether Jews can stand in true solidarity with Palestinians given the power dynamics.

💡nation-state

A nation-state joins a cultural or ethnic group with a sovereign country. Zionism established Israel as the Jewish nation-state. The video argues this inevitably discriminates against non-Jewish citizens.

💡colonialism

Colonialism is when an external power seizes control of a place and people. The video describes Zionism as a colonialist project, with Israel founded through occupying Palestinian land.

Highlights

Zionism conflates Judaism with Zionism, anti-semites do it to delegitimize Judaism; zionists do it to legitimize Zionism

Anti-zionism is not anti-semitism; Israel tries to equate the two through propaganda

Israel insists if you believe it should not exist, you're an anti-semite; but anti-zionism is opposition to the ideology, not Jews

Many 'anti-zionists' just oppose Israel's actions, not the ideology itself; they'd be fine if Palestinians were ok with Israel

The core problem is Israel claims to represent all Jews worldwide, making Jews targets

Israel weaponizes the Holocaust to justify oppression while claiming to prevent another one

Focus should be on scholarship and discussions on making Israel a normal democracy, not a Jewish state

Jews allying with Palestinians reinforces the perception that Jews worldwide are combatants against Palestinians

Israel has no standing to speak or act in the name of all Jews; they should be viewed as a separate state like China

If Israel made peace with Palestinians but still claimed to represent all Jews, it would still be problematic ideology

Zionism causes identity theft by claiming Israel as the nation state of all Jews worldwide

The solution is a one state democracy of Israelis, not a Jewish state

More scholarship is needed on convincing Israelis and Palestinians that a one state democracy is viable

Jewish allies of Palestinians reinforce propaganda that it's Jews worldwide against Palestinians

The conflict is between Israelis and Palestinians; Jews shouldn't be dragged into it

Transcripts

that's the thing with Zionism it's

contradictory the whole thing doesn't

make sense now how did it work the way

it worked is through propaganda the way

it worked is through tremendous

propaganda they insist that anti-zionism

is anti-Semitism Netanyahu wrote in his

book and aor liberman has an article on

Israel's own website you know we have.

goov they also have the same type of

thing Israel minister of for Ministry of

Foreign Affairs website and um Dan alone

said it and even Ben Shapiro no relation

to me thank God also said it he they

said the following uh if you want to

know what Zionism is a nutshell by the

way this is a very good formulation they

said anti-zionism is anti-Semitism

meaning that if you believe Israel

should not exist you're an anti-semite

and here's why Japan is to the Japanese

what France is to the French what Israel

is to the finish that uh equation it

should be what Israel is to the Israelis

right but it's not but that's without

Zionism with Zionism France is to the

French what Japan to the Japanese with

israels to the Jews now and just as you

can't say I want I'm in favor of having

a Japanese people but I don't want Japan

to exist you can't say that I I'm in F

favor of having having a French identity

in the people without France so too you

cannot say I'm in favor of having Jewish

identity without Israel that's Zionism

that's what they want you to say that's

what they want you to think yeah that's

what they want you to think and that's

why anti-zionism to them is

anti-Semitism and it's the conflation of

Jews and Zionism so we can all agree I

think we have enough people that agree I

don't have to convince anybody that

Judaism is not Zionism and conflating

the two is anti-Semitic there are two

types of people that conflate Jews with

zionists

zionists conflate Judaism with Zionism

anti-semites do it in order to

delegitimize Judaism by claiming that

it's Zionism and zionists do it in order

to legitimize Zionism by claiming it's

Judaism now we want to decouple that

that's the way to get rid of Zionism

very simple get decouple that but here's

a conversation first for the

Palestinians yeah and I've had this

conversation okay Mr pal Mr Palestinian

you you agree that you're your enemy

over here is not the Jews it's Israel

correct 100%

and the Jews have nothing to do with

this here's a question if so why are

Palestinians so happy when they find

Jewish allies jvp Jewish Orthodox Jews

let them find Israeli allies if France

is having a a war with Italy and there

are Italian people on France's side

that's meaningful for France every war

it works that way here if the issue is

if there's a war between Israel and the

Palestinians then the Jews Jewish voice

for peace doesn't make any sense sense

if there were Israeli voice for peace

that

would but we don't but they don't have

they don't have that there so what the

other Jews are trying to say is you

don't get to speak for all of us and if

you want to do that fine but we're going

to say we're Jews and we say never again

for Palestinians either right so here's

here's the problem with that when uh

Russia bombs Ukraine or Ukraine bombs

Russia they no the Jews aren't saying

that you don't get to speak for us

meaning if you go and you say Okay

Israel doesn't get to speak for us we're

saying never again for Palestinians too

does that mean that Israel is like

Ukraine to the Jews it's like China what

does it

mean that we don't want we don't like

this particular thing you're doing in

our name does Israel have standing to

speak in the name of the Jews just this

thing is bad or Israel is like China to

the Jews it's a different country it's a

different people you see right it would

be like CH if China were founded on

Jewish trauma no but Israel is not

founded on Jewish trauma said that they

were if they said that they were as

oppos it was founded on

colonialism but it was founded on

Zionism and if the Chinese would say

they really represent the Jews you think

that people would be fighting no they

wouldn't if R said believe them but no

but right so the answer is not to say

look when I was a kid people were

fighting against the Vietnam War

Americans uh protesting against it right

that doesn't mean that they believed

America is not their country that means

on the contrary because America is my

country therefore I feel a

responsibility now here's a question for

the leftist Jews let's say there would

be a two-state solution and everybody

would be happy Palestinians would be

happy and the Zionist would be happy

Israel would have 5% of their land and

the Palestinians would have

95% the Zions would have a little piece

in the negative right question is the

jvp happy sure why

not that's here there's the problem even

if the Palestinians are not in the line

of fire Zionism is the same Zionism it

still claims to represent the Jews it's

still the same ideology so these people

are not anti-zionist they are they are

just Pro Palestinian they don't like

that the zionists are harming

Palestinians but if the Zionist would

not harm Palestinians they would be okay

with Israel if the Palestinians are okay

with Israel well maybe it's a maybe it's

a triage and I mean I don't know what

they would say to that but maybe

certainly you can think that well the

biggest priority right now is to stop

doing this in our agreed so here's the

answer if the biggest priority is to

stop doing this in our name the zionists

love when there are leftwing Jewish

organizations doing this because they

tell people it's part of their

propaganda that these leftwing Jews they

agree that Israel is a Jewish State the

Jewish state they're just protesting

against it in the same way that

Americans protested against the war in

Vietnam so we have to get rid of that

what we need to do is we need to say

look we have nothing to do with with

this we Israel has no standing to speak

in the name of the Jews and this that

they are doing things in the name of the

Jews is just Insanity it's just like I

don't know like I think of the black

Hebrews speaking in the name of the Jews

they got into a fight with the

Palestinians nobody's going to say okay

don't do it in our name Jews have to

completely sever themselves from Israel

from Zionism in such a way to say look

if the Palestinians want allies there

are plenty of Israeli Americans to have

his allies which would recalibrates the

entire picture Israel versus

Palestinians Jews are not involved if

there's an Israeli that's not Jewish

Katie Hamas killed non-jews also at the

music festival right Tai Tai workers

right Tai absolutely and there was even

a Muslim woman with the head scarf that

they they are after Israelis that's what

they're after they're out there to to to

sure they didn't want to kill the the

Thai people but is so that your telling

me that they were after Jews or they

were after Israelis Israelis I doubt

that they're angry at Thai people if

people are saying they're anti-semites

they hate Jews it has nothing to do with

Israel the answer needs to be no they

hate Israelis has nothing to do with the

Jews or but but is that true or is that

not true the problem Israelis has

conflated it so even the when they say

the Jews they mean Israelis that's

absolutely true so the Jews but if a

Palestinian knows the difference between

Jews and Israelis who does he think his

enemy is Israeli exactly so if the

enemies are Israelis and if they know

the difference and if they their enemies

are Israelis and even if it's Jews it's

because they think Jews are Israelis it

should be our job to decouple the two to

tell everybody Jews are not Israelis we

have nothing to do with this Israeli

Americans if they want to side with the

Palestinians those are meaningful allies

but Jews it's one step forward and two

steps back because it reinforces the

perception

that it's Jews just like Americans

fought against the Vietnam War Jews are

fighting against the Israeli War I

understand what you're saying but

there's a calculation like there is a

calculation that needs to be made

because the question is which is more

important to the extent that I think

that people

are more open to Jews criticizing Israel

now that's problematic but it's more

open than what more open that

Israelis no I'm talking about Americans

how about Israeli Americans there are

plenty of Israeli Americans okay there

not enough of I'm if if you convince me

that if I stop talking about Israel and

Palestine that I'd be able to find like

replacements for all the Jews who were

talking about Israel Palestine then yeah

but but barring that to the extent that

I think it is making a difference in

other words for me what's more important

is helping Palestinians that's more

important to me than in the long run in

the long run Katie the help for the

Palestinians and for the Israelis and

for everybody in the world is to

separate Jews from zionists right that's

the whole problem over here but in the

meantime if we just jumped ship if we

just stopped then the only people

speaking in the name of Jews would what

about Americans what about no we we

should

say we should say we should say Israel

cannot speak in the name of Jews they

have no standing and they're talking is

like China right if somebody asks me

they've done it so many times who side

are you on Israel or the Palestinians I

said why are you asking me because I'm

Jewish I'm insult maybe they're asking

you because you talk a lot about Zionism

but that's not what if they ask me that

that's fine but if they come over to me

in the street and they come over to me a

guy did in Midtown Manhattan with a cell

phone he didn't speak English he was

using Google translate and he he tells

me uh encouragement for your country and

I tell him my country you mean America

you see but this is what happens I say

that if you don't want Israel to speak

in the name of the Jews and I don't it's

bad for us it's bad for it's bad for all

the Jews it's bad for the Palestinians

it's bad for everybody because so long

as Israel is able to say it's the Jews

that are fighting they are in a much

stronger position against the

Palestinians

correct yeah so if we but they won't but

but but it's like it's like you're

encouraging unilateral disarmament

because we don't have time to re-educate

people about the lack of connection

between in other words we we should chew

gum and walk at the same time yeah but

you see the problem is remember what I

said before that this whole the whole

success of Zionism that people don't

have time to think about anything yeah

there's that's the problem and your

previous guest just said we need a

conversation we need scholarship we need

all of this if we don't have time for

this forget it last 70 years my lifetime

I've heard this all the time there's Six

Day War there's yam Kiper War there's

this war there's that war there's never

any time to do anything right and and

therefore but each time every Jew gets

out there and says Jews for peace or in

whatever text they use that reinforces

with Israeli propaganda uses that to

reinforce the perception that the Jews

are the combatant against the

Palestinians and these Jews are like the

Americans like what like Jane Fonda

these are the Jane fondas of of the

Americans we don't want that we want to

decouple it so why can't we just say

look Israel has nothing to do with the

Jews you want to speak you want to be an

ally the Palestinian as an American as

Katie go right ahead fine but but to say

je as Jews what you're doing is you're

reinforcing Zionism and and therefore we

need to say if somebody wants to be on

the Palestinian side let them be on the

Palestinian side if somebody wants to be

on Israel side let be on isra I hear

what you're saying but I have a question

how many Jews I don't know this is not a

rhetorical question because I don't know

the answer what percentage of Jews live

in Israel about 50 so about 50% right so

okay depends who you consider a Jew it's

not so simple but let's say about

50% I

mean given that don't you think we do

have to do like get some heavy lifting

even if to explain but I'm saying we do

have to do heavy lifting we should be

running around telling everybody that

the Jews this is this is identity theft

that's what it is when they say right

okay when the war's over then you'll

have time identity theft we Israel has

nothing to do with the Jews the Jews

have nothing to do with Israel I'm an

American I don't like when Jonathan po

goes around saying that Jews should spy

for Israel let the let him say that the

Israeli Americans should spy for Israel

that's also wrong but at least it's not

at least it's it it it identifies who's

really the combatant over here so long

as they have this smoke screen that it's

the Jews then you have the Holocaust

then you have 2000 persecution could you

say we are going to speak out against

people who weaponized the Holocaust to

perpetuate more genocide we could say

that we PE weaponizing the Holocaust is

bad I wrote a whole chapter about it the

whole idea of fine 100% you could do

whatever you want you could speak about

whatever you want all I'm saying is that

non-jews could do the same thing

the Holocaust is not only the Jew don't

own the call self-loading as opposed to

anti-semitic which is a little bit

better right but all of this is not

worth it because it encourages Zionism

the idea that the Jews look how Biden is

talking look how it's the Jewish State

the Jewish that's the problem as you

cannot have a Jewish State and a

democratic State both that's the problem

correct fine if you cannot say have a

Jewish State and a democratic State and

if that is the core of the problem and I

believe it is and I think you agree

if you agree then the solution is to

make sure that no it's only a Jewish

State because people say it is if all

the if the Jews in the world and the

non-jews in the world would all say you

know they say that they're a Jewish

State that's like American Manifest

Destiny that's like the Aryan race

that's some the sun it's like a sun

theology it's like some crazy theology

but so long as we say no Jews having a

responsibility to speak up about about

what Israel does I say we chws our

responsibility speak up and say Israel

has no standing to speak in the name of

the Jews even if they do something good

I if and I say that if there was a

two-state solution and everybody was

happy the Palestinians and Israelis were

happy Israel would still be the same

Israel and I would be just as opposed to

it because it still claims to be the

nation state of the Jews Jonathan po

would still say what he says Zionism

would still be Zionism it's just that

the Palestinians would be out of the

picture so somebody that would be happy

with that doesn't really care about

Zionism and Jewish state and those

things that are really bad that's just

really an excuse to say okay stop

killing Palestinians yeah my anti

Zionism is mostly shaped by not wanting

people to be ethnically cleansed in the

name of it and the ethnic cleansing that

went into it like if Jews founded a

place and they wanted to have a

Theocratic thing and live somewhere and

make their own country as long as they

don't claim they're my country

that's a different story but but if even

if the Palestinians end up with 95% of

the land they're happy Israel still

claims they're your

country that 5% all right that's yeah I

would but that would be that would be

and that's the core of the problem

that's why there's a problem why doesn't

Israel just Annex the whole thing and

make the Palestinians citizens well they

can't have a non-jewish majority this is

the entire Crux of the matter is Israel

a democracy or is Israel a Jewish State

or the Jewish

State now the fact that there's no

country in the world that acts like

Israel in terms of their being the

Jewish state that they make us their

citizens they're using us as human

Shields I don't know why that doesn't

bother people it should bother them very

much aside from the idea of the thing

going on with the Palestinians and if we

attack I think the Crux of the matter to

say look no Israel You're Not the Jewish

State you need to act like a democracy

that you claim you are rather than say

you know what I don't like the genocide

as a Jew that's the as a Jew I'm

speaking against the genes what that

means is okay let's say I'm a Christian

I'm not Jewish all right let the Jews

deal with this why should I have to

speak up no it doesn't work that way

well because For Better or For Worse

people have been browbeaten into

listening to a certain voice and I deal

the way that I deal with this conflict

you're talking about is that what I

don't want to do when I say as a Jew ABC

as a Jew XYZ what I don't want to

suggest is if you're not a Jew you don't

have a valid point of view I don't want

to suggest that if you're not a Jew if

you're a pal Palestinian saying this

you're an anti-semite but I still am

happy to serve a utilitarian role

because I think I hear what you're

saying there's a side effect of that

utilitarian role in the long term you

are strengthening inadvertently the

ideology that's causing this whole

problem but it depends on which part of

the ideology right because for you the

worst the worst part for you is the

ideology that Israel is the Jewish State

the worst it's not a question of the

worst that's the core of all the

problems we all agree on that all saying

is if you want to stick up for the

Palestinians go right ahead but why do

you have to do it as a Jew do you admit

that that probably works propagandistic

even if you're saying in the long run

it's not worth it do you at least see

that there is some immediate value to it

I think the same value that Jane Fonda

had with the Vietnam War which was

marginal and it depends who you ask

right star power exactly they're all

that's a star power and you're a star

too so they they all you know there in

every war there are people that are on

on both sides the question is whose war

is this whose war is this moves I I I

totally go what you're saying but I do

think that like Craig mber who was at

the UN who resigned he said how inspired

he was by seeing what happened in Grand

Central Station um I I think here's the

thing here's the thing I think that

there are people who if a non-u says

something they will and I don't mean

like cynical zionists I mean like people

who don't understand that much maybe are

really Guided by fear or really

brainwashed they will take what a Jew

says about Israel more seriously or

they'll consider it with a more open

mind than they will a non-jew because

they they not not justifiably but they

think see everything as anti-semitic I

agree with that but and therefore if

given a choice as a Jew to speak you can

either say I don't like this particular

thing that Israel is doing in my name

versus Israel is not a Jewish State

altogether the fact that they are

speaking in the name of the Jews and

doing things in the name of the Jews is

wrong period not this particular thing

the fact that they are doing anything in

the name of the Jews they have no

business claiming to be the Jewish State

and therefore anything they do whether

they're committing genocide or or

charity in the name of the Jews is wrong

it's just identity theft you will be

fulfilling your that that uh that

benefit people will have that you're a

Jew talking but instead of just focusing

on one thing and coming across like Jane

Fonda you can come across like you would

if you somebody would tell you well why

don't you join the Hebrew the black

Hebrews he would say black Hebrews

they're not me what do you want from me

and and the same it would have the same

effect sooner or later but wouldn't

encourage Zionism we could accomplish

the same thing and more I I think that

see that's the question if Israel would

be happy and the Palestinian would be

happy would you still have a problem

with Israel I would forget about which

is the worst problem for a second would

there still be a problem I think a lot

of the uh anti-zionist activists aren't

really anti-zionists they're just anti

this particular thing Israel's doing

they're Pro they're Pro Palestinian

human rights they're Pro Palestinian

human rights but that's not really

anti-zionist and if we're going to

separate because if you'd have Zionism

without the Palestinian human rights

issue would you have a problem with that

so if you would not have a problem with

that if you have the state in the Middle

East claiming to be the state of the

Jews and the entire thing just the

Palestinians took over all of Egypt or

all of Gaza and all of the West Bank and

they're all happy let's say they're

happy right every you the International

Community rebuilds all the hospitals and

all the roads and it looks like a scene

out of the Jetson it looks like one big

Dubai all right and they're happy and

Israel's happy everything's okay no not

everything's okay because I still have a

Target on my back for whoever is going

to be Israel's enemies whoever it may be

I'm still being dragged into it Jonathan

poot is still telling people I have dual

loyalty that's Zionism Zionism is an

ideology it's not just colonialism it's

an ideology at that caused the

colonialism and because today if there's

a American Indian American a Native

American out there he could become an

American citizen he's as American as me

but you still will never be Jewish

you'll never be a national of that

country unless you're Jewish that's

Zionism right that ideology has got to

go in a peaceful way with no casualties

or minimal casualties that ideology once

that ideology is gone and Israel becomes

a normal country like all other

countries that becomes the country of

its citizens not the country of the Jews

guess what everything falls into place

right that that if you're talking about

scholarship and you're talking about

about uh discussions I think that needs

to be the discussion is is how do we get

Israel to become what Japan is to the

Japanese Fran is to the French Israelis

to the Israelis how do we move to that

one state how do we get to one state how

do we one state what Israel is to the

Israelis how do we get there from

Israelis to the Jews but it's not just a

question of one state to solve the

Palestinian problem if the Palestinians

would say I want two states right right

well luckily it doesn't seem like they

do so I think we have fine or let's say

the Palestinians will be willing to say

we're willing to be Israeli Citizens

We're converting to Judaism how's that

all the Palestinians will say we're

converting I know it's a theoretical I'm

just giving you a mind experiment yeah

would everybody be okay with this I

would not be okay with this because

Jonathan poed would still be saying what

he's saying and there would just be more

zionists out there not less right

Zionism is an ideology that's noxious

for everybody in the world including the

Jews and that's the core problem of

everything that we're seeing over there

what kind of country says that they

they're the states of other people and

if it's my country then it's not the

country of the Palestinians it's two

sides of the same coin it's either the

country of the Israelis or the country

of the Jews that is where our Focus

needs to be if you want to have a

discussion that's where the scholarship

needs to be Zionism is an ideology it's

not just like settler colonialism

colonialism that uh England wanted to

make an Empire when they freed the

slaves they had the same discussion you

can't free the slaves it's danger to all

the whites right they're going to you

know what they did to the slaves they

went to Africa kidnapped them took them

put them in Chains and they made him

into slaves but you know what if

you it worked how did it work how

where's the scholarship to figure out

how Israel can become a normal country a

democracy like anything else where are

the historical precedents for situations

I'm not a historian but there are people

who are where are the papers where are

the studies about this how in the world

can this work

how give me historical precedence go to

the Jews there are plenty of Jews that

would say one state will be great but

it's dangerous security reasons right

okay where's the evidence that it would

or wouldn't be a security problem what

if you go to the Palestines you tell

them look you know what Gaza is not Gaza

is not going to be free it's a question

of one Democratic state or nothing why

would you would you accept that or not

yes or no where are the studies where

are the surveys where's the effort all

the effort that's put in now to

discussing one state two State red state

blue State that's what I call it should

be put into discussing how to make

Israel into a normal democracy like

everything else but I don't see that

happening isn't I thought that that is

what most one state solution people want

like pet who we both that's fine moo

wants that but my question is where are

the studies to show the to address the

question the only obstacle to that one

state solution besides sism is the

security issue the same thing that

Thomas Jefferson said don't don't free

all the slaves because of a security

issue fine I want to see historical

precedents I want to see surveys AFA

South a I want to see I want to see

journals and and uh scholarship

convincing people that you know what it

would be a good idea it's doable even if

you have United Nation's forces put a

tank on every street corner uh my guess

last week you should be on with him I

should bring you both on together he

wrote a piece at foreign policy called

one the one two state is dead there will

be a one state I think but yeah there

there are a lot of Scholars who do that

but the the Orthodox Community is not a

monolith right because there are

Orthodox Jews who are

zionists those are the modern Orthodox

um okay they they're called modern

Orthodox but uh you won't find an

Israeli flag in any Orthodox School

except for the modern Orthodox they call

them they're like Zionist Jews someone

in the in the in the chat asked does

rabbi Shapiro's views on Zionism differ

from Rabbi yur David Weiss I'm not 100%

sure what Rabbi right what Rabbi David

Weiss's views are but I as opposed to

the Nur karta think that the N karta

like the left-wing zionists encourage

Zionism because why would a guy with a

beard imp payus that has no interest in

human rights issues anywhere in the

world go say an American if he's Israeli

is one thing an American go say

no fly a Palestinian flag and say okay

I'm an ally the Palestinians and why

would the Palestinians want a Jew as

opposed to as an Israeli all I

understand the answer to all these

questions but the side effect of all of

this is Zionism that's what it is that

these are the Jane fondas these are the

Jane fondas and just like with Jane fer

they said no you want Americans to get

killed remember the the story with her

with the tank yeah stupid of her to do

it but she didn't want anybody killed

whatever okay it's the exact same thing

happening with these people these jvp's

and the NAT caras they're the Jane

fonders of this uh conflict and the same

thing is happening but the problem is

it's not a Jane Fonda because Jane Fonda

was an

American right and it was American

fighting in Vietnam these people are

Jews they're telling people that they

are the Jane fondas but they're not

they're giving people the wrong

impression let Israelis if they want to

support the Palestinians I want to see

ivp Israeli voice for peace in America

even if there aren't enough there are

some there right Israelis in Israel

there are plenty of Israelis I'm GNA

have to I'm gonna have to become an

Israeli just so I can be an effective

anti-zionist Jewish advocate for

Palestinians then go ahead you don't

have to be Aliah you don't have to be

Jewish but you are not the and you said

you weren't sure if Hamas is after the

Jews or Hamas is after Israelis I think

they're after Israelis I just don't I

mean no actually I know they're after

Israelis because they said their problem

isn't with Jews it's with israelies okay

so there you go so if that's the case

why tell people that hamas's problem is

with Jews in other words okay hamas's

problem with Israelis I know that but

people are are taking the allies of the

Palestinians the Jewish allies are the

Palestinians and using that to promote

the idea that they are the Jane fonders

of of this conflict but they're not

they're not um Palestinians and they're

not Israelis that's who the conflict is

between and that's what everybody needs

to understand yeah okay but now now it's

also it's with the help of the United

States obviously so if you're saying

Americans oh there you go as an American

that's another story then AVP say

American Voice for peace and there are

plenty of Americans more than there are

Jews why don't you see why don't people

do that AVP but why is the Jay over

there every time there's a j involved

with I and P right yeah but aren't you a

little bit doing what you're saying you

shouldn't do because you're all because

you're saying you're

F China and they have no right to speak

in my name and I don't like Zionism

because it claims no different than

black Hebrews and no different than

Christian supersessionism that they are

the forces of the Jews but they're not

I'm claiming they're a joke what they

say that they're they say they're my

country it's not true it has nothing to

do with me it's China to me Israel is to

me like China there are Jews in Ukraine

they are Jews in Israel I don't fly a

Ukrainian flag I don't fly an Israeli

flag I don't fly a Palestinian flag I

don't fly a Russian flag I'm a American

as American and the next guy I fly

American flags if America has a fight

with Afghanistan if I'm on Afghanistan

side I'm gon to protest against the war

but as an American not as a Jew wouldn't

make any

sense and I say we need to bring the

public to a place where this makes as

little sense that Jews should be flying

Palestinian Flags or Israeli

flags as it would if they would be

flying Afghani Flags or American flags I

hear you with the Israeli flag and I

know you're going to disagree with me

but I still think that if for if you're

a Jew who and this is why it kind of

goes back to what it means to be a Jew

I'm not religious as you know my Jewish

identity and maybe this is just a sub

genre of identity like Woody Allen right

not that he's a moral Authority right

now obviously but in in what in Annie

Hall he meets that girl and he's like oh

Central Park West socialist summer camp

I don't remember what school very strike

oriented family so I am that stereotype

okay but Katie do you need to be an a

Jew to be that stereotype you could be

an American and you could

uh you could protest for social justice

as an American yeah you can the

Americans fought against taxation

without representations these guys were

Puritans you don't have to be a Jew for

that and if somebody does that does that

make them Jewish forget about your

identity for a second I'm saying that

why do you need to use your identity as

a Jew in order to promote those causes I

don't need to and I certainly when I was

growing up I never really did I didn't

even think of myself as very Jewish and

other people like you're even if you are

Jewish let's say you're the most Jewish

person in the world but why does that

jewishness have to it gets in the way

of Israel Palestine because you're not

Israeli you're not Palestinian as an

American as a human being you can be on

whatever side you believe Justice is but

as a Jew you don't add

anything okay and you ret and you

subtract I

think ah what what's the equation that

we're talking about the equation is

Israel is to the Jews what Japan is to

the Japanese no I mean when you say you

you don't add but you subtract well I'm

saying the the to the to the uh

elimination of Zionism from the face of

the

earth I don't know because you don't

think that having Jews be anti- Zionist

helps create a world in which Zionism

can be defeated more but you're not

anti-zionist you're anti- uh oppression

of the Palestinians that's the point F

you don't think that having Jews who are

pro Palestinian and critical of Israel

makes it easier for Israel to become one

state I think Israelis Israelis would

one Jewish State yes no I don't mean

Jewish State I mean one state has

nothing to do with Palestinians then say

Israel should become one state and not a

Jewish state if Israel would be at peace

again if the Palestinians would be happy

would you be doing this with the same

forget the same Gusto would you be doing

this I don't know exactly so if you

wouldn't be doing that then the point is

not one state the point is stop the

oppression of the Palestinians well they

go hand in hand maybe what if there's a

two-state solution theoretically that's

the question in other words if there's

two-state solution Palestinians are

happy you'd be happy even though Zionism

would be very strong Zionism would be

very strong with one in what in what

case two State solution Palestinians get

all of the Middle East except 5% of the

negative desert which becomes

Israel that's Zionism same thing just

Israel smaller and there's no palesi

Zionism no it has strong Army it says

it's the state of the Jews Jonathan Pard

saying that ktie Halper is uh loyal to

Israel and his dual C dual loyalty same

thing's happening just one thing is

different Palestinians aren't uh aren't

unhappy all right I have to think about

it more

okay uh I could keep talking but do you

have you have another I have another

podcast and I'm late they're gonna kill

me yeah thank you for this though we'll

have to continue this yes uh it was

great being here Katie yeah you too

thank you thank you so much please come

back though because I have a lot more

questions thanks okay that was great wow

fascinating discussion so much to think

about I didn't know it was going to go

in that direction I I agree and I also

you know not to you know just blow smoke

here Katie but um I can't recall another

instance on like your mainstream news

where I've I can't recall a pundit ever

being like I need to think about this

for a while and like and I I agree like

I I it's so much to take in that I can't

speak absolutely on what I think and

everything but I just think that that

speaks to how awesome the conversation

was yeah that it's something that I have

to think about because a lot of the time

I very quickly like know what I'm

thinking and everything and yeah really

appreciated discussion yeah and I also

feel like I've been told by people thank

you for what you're doing I don't mean

this in a self uh congratulating way

sure but I think I think it makes it

easier for anti- zionists who are not

Jewish to be surrounded by to not be the

to not have it so that the only

anti-zionists are not Jewish voices I

think it is a good buffer right no I I

agree like and I was thinking and again

I might evolve on this but I was just

thinking like in the short term Here and

Now

yes I can see the utility in that but

long-term big

picture I also see what he's saying

right too and that's something that

again that's what I need to like think

about to like Square in my own head but

someone said I do think it's dangerous

to disengage as Jewish allies your

Palestinian comates have vocalized their

support in the wake of smear campaigns I

I'm not GNA that's not that's not what

I'm thinking about I guess to me to me

it's clear that there like I said this

is triage like the immediate goal is to

stop the literal Massacre of

Palestinians so I'll do whatever it

takes and I don't I don't know if this

makes sense it was just a random thought

that I had uh written a few minutes ago

but I was thinking aloud like maybe

there is some utility in using your

jewishness in opposing what Israel is

doing simply

because uh Israel and the powers that be

are using jewishness right to justify or

you know excuse everything that Israel

is doing but then that's kind of like

fighting fire with fire and I don't know

if that makes I don't know I don't know

but I do care more about

Palestinians than I do I mean there is

some self-interest in this too in that I

don't want Israel when it commits

heinous crimes the first level is I this

is as a as a person and look I'm I'll be

real when I say as a Jew that's also

propagandistic I'm I'm totally honest

about that I mean it's true my Jewish um

identity was very much founded on never

again for anyone and I would argue that

historically speaking part of the reason

that there is a tradition of leftist

internationalist secular Jews is because

of anti-Semitism and because of a

diaspora tradition and because not

having a state ironically that itself to

internationalism but to me the most

important thing is if I were if I were

Buddhist I would say as a Buddhist stop

what Israel is doing but I I do feel

like then after that level and that's

the first level right

is the I don't want while Israel does

heinous things that will increase

anti-Semitism I want the world to know

that not all Jews I don't want to be a

moving Target right anti zionists so

yeah all interesting things I understand

where he's coming from but look the

truth is I know that people appreciate

it when Jews because the more Jews

criticize Israel the harder it is to

portray anti- Zionism as anti-Semitism

and the easier we're making the lives of

people who are out there and vulnerable

like again in the short term because you

know just talking about like us

mainstream media traditionally speaking

it seems like when people speak out like

that the go-to reply would be you know

you're an anti-semite or blah blah blah

and then having someone who is Jewish

doing that or leading that at least

potentially hopefully makes that smear

more difficult or not

effective

though still doesn't take away from me

not seeing what he's saying in the

larger picture

right anyway yeah

yeah I'm but I'm super glad that he said

he would be coming back because yeah

really interesting yeah finlen shapir

discussion would be interesting I mean I

also disagree with him on what makes a

Jew that's another thing but I

definitely enjoy talking to

him