Explaining the Fall to Atheists
Summary
TLDRIn this discussion, Jonathan Pedro explores the concept of the Fall and how it relates to human experience and perception. He argues that the notion of being 'fallen' is embedded in everyday experiences and critiques of religion. Pedro delves into the philosophical and theological implications of the Fall, examining the gap between human desires and reality, and how this gap is reflected in secular and religious thought. He discusses the story of Adam and Eve as a framework for understanding this gap and emphasizes the importance of purpose and sacrifice in overcoming the suffering associated with it. Pedro concludes by highlighting the need for consciousness of this gap and the role of Christ in bridging it.
Takeaways
- π The concept of 'the Fall' is difficult for secular individuals to grasp, but it is deeply embedded in the human experience of a gap between the ideal and the real.
- π Jonathan Pedro introduces the symbolic world and invites viewers to become members for community engagement and exclusive content.
- π€ The Enlightenment critique of Christianity by figures like Voltaire is itself a form of Christian criticism, highlighting the inherent gap between ideals and reality.
- π Gnosticism posits that the world is inherently evil and that salvation lies in escaping to a higher spiritual plane, which raises questions about the origin of morality and purpose.
- π The existence of a 'gap' between our current state and our ideals challenges both nihilistic and theistic worldviews to explain the source of our moral sense and aspirations.
- π§ββοΈ Jordan Peterson and others discuss the idea that existence is bound in purpose, with reality presenting itself through a hierarchy of identities and purposes.
- πββοΈ The human experience is characterized by a constant movement towards closing the gap between our current state and our desired state, which is perceived as suffering in the pursuit of purpose.
- π Dante and classical philosophers describe the human condition as a journey from lack to fulfillment, driven by desire and the perception of purpose.
- π The act of self-consciousness and the knowledge of good and evil from Genesis are related to the problem of perceiving our distance from the good and the need to bridge that gap.
- βοΈ Christ's path, as understood in Christian theology, involves embracing suffering and sacrifice as a means to close the gap between our current state and our ultimate purpose.
- ποΈ The story of the Fall in Genesis is presented as a way to understand the inherent human condition of perceiving a gap between our state and our purpose, and the moral implications of this perception.
Q & A
What is the main topic of the transcript?
-The main topic of the transcript is the concept of the Fall, as it relates to human existence, morality, and the gap between our current state and the higher purposes we aim for. The speaker discusses how this concept is difficult for secular people to understand but is deeply embedded in everyday experiences.
Why do secular people struggle to understand the notion of the Fall?
-Secular people struggle to understand the notion of the Fall because it involves accepting a metaphysical idea that the world is somehow inherently flawed or distant from its intended purpose. This concept is challenging for those who don't believe in a higher intelligence or purpose governing the world.
How does the speaker relate the Fall to everyday experiences?
-The speaker relates the Fall to everyday experiences by explaining that people constantly perceive a gap between what is and what should be. This gap manifests in their moral judgments, desires, and actions, reflecting the idea of being distant from a higher purpose or state.
What criticism does the speaker mention about Voltaire's view of Christianity?
-The speaker criticizes Voltaire for using a Christian framework to criticize Christianity. Voltaire identifies gaps or failures in Christianity based on his sense of what should be, but this sense itself is rooted in Christian values, leading to a kind of circular criticism.
How does the concept of the Fall explain the gap between human aspirations and reality?
-The concept of the Fall explains the gap between human aspirations and reality by suggesting that humans are in a state of distance from their intended purpose. This distance creates a sense of suffering or lack, which drives human actions and desires as they try to bridge the gap.
What role does self-consciousness play in the perception of the Fall?
-Self-consciousness plays a crucial role in the perception of the Fall because it involves becoming aware of the gap between oneself and the ideal or good that one aspires to. This awareness leads to a sense of duality and distance, which is central to the experience of the Fall.
How does the speaker connect the story of Genesis to the concept of the Fall?
-The speaker connects the story of Genesis to the concept of the Fall by interpreting the knowledge of good and evil as the beginning of human self-consciousness and awareness of the gap between their current state and the ideal. This awareness introduces a sense of distance and suffering, which is a key aspect of the Fall.
What does the speaker suggest is the solution to overcoming the gap created by the Fall?
-The speaker suggests that overcoming the gap created by the Fall involves a conscious acceptance of suffering and a willingness to sacrifice lower purposes for higher ones. This is exemplified in the path of Christ and the martyr, where suffering is embraced as a way to move closer to the ultimate purpose.
How does the speaker describe the relationship between suffering and purpose?
-The speaker describes the relationship between suffering and purpose as intrinsic to human experience. Suffering arises from the gap between one's current state and their desired goal, but it can also be a source of joy if it is aligned with a higher purpose and seen as part of the journey towards that purpose.
What is the significance of the tree of life in the speaker's interpretation of the Fall?
-In the speaker's interpretation, the tree of life in Genesis symbolizes the ultimate good or purpose that humans perceive only after gaining knowledge of good and evil. The act of eating the forbidden fruit reveals the gap between humans and this ultimate purpose, leading to the experience of suffering and the need to bridge that gap.
Outlines
π€ Understanding the Concept of the Fall
In this introduction, the speaker discusses the difficulty many people, especially those with a secular mindset, have in understanding the concept of the Fallβthe idea that humans and creation are somehow 'Fallen.' The speaker emphasizes that this notion is deeply embedded in everyday experiences and even in critiques of religion. The purpose is to explore and provide examples to help the audience grasp the significance of the Fall in human existence.
π§ The Gap Between What Is and What Should Be
The speaker delves into the concept of 'the Gap'βthe perceived distance between the world as it is and how it ought to be. This gap is present in secular critiques, such as those during the Enlightenment, which often fail to recognize their inherent moral assumptions. The speaker questions the origin of this gap, contrasting a meaningless, purposeless world with one created by a loving God. The Gnostic perspective is introduced, where the world is seen as intrinsically evil, further complicating the understanding of this moral and existential divide.
π― Purpose and the Experience of Suffering
This paragraph explores how human existence is inherently tied to purpose, and how our perception of reality is shaped by the constant pursuit of goals. The speaker connects this to the concept of the Fall, arguing that the experience of a gap between our current state and our desired state is a form of suffering. This is illustrated through everyday examples, like going to the store, where the gap creates a sense of discomfort or 'suffering' until the goal is achieved. The paragraph highlights how this dynamic of purpose and suffering is central to human experience.
π The Cosmic Struggle for Purpose and the Role of Self-Consciousness
The speaker examines the broader implications of the gap on a cosmic and existential level, questioning the ultimate purpose of life and how this purpose is often elusive. The concept of a 'God-shaped hole' in humans is introduced, representing the constant yearning for a higher good that remains just out of reach. The Fall, as described in Genesis, is interpreted as the awakening to this duality and the recognition of our distance from the good we seek. The speaker suggests that this awareness of the gap is intrinsic to human self-consciousness and underlies the moral and existential struggles we face.
π Embracing Suffering and Sacrifice for a Higher Purpose
This paragraph discusses the Christian perspective on bridging the gap, particularly through the example of Christ, who embraced suffering and death for a higher purpose. The speaker argues that by willingly accepting suffering, rather than resisting it, individuals can transform their suffering into a path towards greater good. This idea is exemplified by the martyr, who sacrifices all lesser goals for the ultimate purpose. The paragraph concludes by linking this sacrificial attitude to everyday life, where even the discipline of learning or training involves suffering towards a meaningful goal.
π³ The Fall and the Refusal to Suffer
In the final paragraph, the speaker reflects on the Fall of Adam and Eve, interpreting it as a refusal to embrace suffering and the consequences of their actions. By eating the fruit, they became aware of the gap between themselves and the good, but instead of accepting the suffering necessary to bridge this gap, they sought to avoid it, leading to the complex history of human suffering. The speaker ties this back to the idea that the gap is a fundamental part of human existence, affecting not only moral choices but every aspect of moving towards a purpose.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘The Fall
π‘Gap
π‘Telos
π‘Self-consciousness
π‘Suffering
π‘Martyrdom
π‘Gnosticism
π‘Enlightenment
π‘Moral Sense
π‘Christ
Highlights
The notion of the Fall is difficult for secular people to understand, but it is deeply embedded in everyday experience.
The concept of Fallenness is often found even in secular criticisms of religion.
There is a perceived gap between what should be and what is in the world, a central theme in understanding the Fall.
Gnostic thinking posits that creation itself is evil and that one must escape the world to a higher spiritual state.
The idea of a cosmic Fall is crucial to explain the moral and existential gap between the ideal and the real.
The question arises: if the world is meaningless, where does our moral sense come from?
Voltaire's criticism of Christianity exemplifies how even Enlightenment thinkers operate within a Christian moral framework.
Existence is bound in purpose, and our perceptions are structured by a hierarchy of purposes.
The experience of distance from our goals, even in mundane tasks, reflects the structure of the Fall.
The story of Genesis is a powerful way to understand the existential and moral gap within us.
Self-consciousness brings awareness of the gap between good and our current state, which is a key element of the Fall.
Suffering can be transformed into joy when it is directed towards a higher purpose.
The martyr's willingness to sacrifice all proximal goals for the highest purpose is an ultimate example of this transformative suffering.
The narrative of the Fall in Genesis highlights the consequences of refusing to suffer purposefully.
Secular critics of religion often unconsciously rely on the good they perceive, but they fail to account for it within their worldview.
Transcripts
one of the things that it is very
difficult for people to understand is
the notion of the Fall the idea that
humans that the world that creation is
somehow
Fallen uh it's very difficult for
secular people to understand that but I
do believe in fact that people
experience that every day and that it is
in fact the idea of being Fallen is in
fact deeply uh knitted into the very
structure of their experience everyday
experience uh you know even in their own
criticism of religion this this
structure of fallenness is inserted so
what I want to do is I want to look at
all of that uh think about it and
hopefully give you some examples that
will help you understand why we talk
about the notion that creation that
humans are fallen and what that means
this is Jonathan Pedro welcome to the
symbolic
[Applause]
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it is truly appreciated now one of the
issues of the Fall one of the things
that makes it difficult for people to
understand what the fall is is a
criticism that I brought to many of the
secularist is that in some ways they
struggle to see their position they to
see where they are and you know and you
see that for example in the
enlightenment you can see that in
volta's criticism of Christianity in
some ways he criticizes Christianity for
not doing what he thinks that should be
done for not doing the good that he
thinks that should be done and he sees
the Enlightenment and kind of
Enlightenment the movement towards
Enlightenment as doing the good things
in the world that should be done now the
problem with that type of thinking is
that if you say that you nonetheless
have this sense that there's a gap that
there's a gap between what you think
should be and what is in the world and
that Gap is very particular it's very
strange because if the world is Fallen
like I mean not even I won't use the
word Fallen yet if the world is
meaningless if the world doesn't have
toos if the world isn't Bound in higher
intelligence and purpose and reason then
where does the gap come from why do we
have this sense of the distance now on
the other hand if on the opposite side
if the world is created by God by a
loving God and you know that it is full
of meaning and Tails and purpose then
why is there a Gap then you know and
this is of course something which can be
explained by the notion of the Fall now
the the gnostics they perceive that
right you can see that in Gnostic
heresies and Gnostic thinking where
people notice the difference between
what they think they should be and their
current state and so what they have to
posit is that the world itself is born
in some evil that creation itself is
evil that the world itself is
intrinsically fallen and that we have to
escape the world into some higher sphere
to some spiritual state in order to be
able to escape the reality of the world
now this of course is uh also a problem
because then why does the world exist so
you have to posit that the world is evil
in itself and that the cause of the
world you know wherever it is if you
imagine some dark uh you know Fallen God
H is the cause of the world but you
still keep putting the problem further
back at some point there has to be some
kind kind of cosmic fall which accounts
for The Gap now can the God only be evil
and this is something that you can see
or can the world just be dark
meaningless and without purpose and that
again that causes the problem that I
mentioned at the outset which is if so
then where does our moral Sense come
from if the origin of all things is
simply dark and you know uh nihilistic
ultimately or evil or E either way you
want to think about it then where does
our sense that something is wrong and
that we should do good where does our
capacity to judge morally come from now
this of course is the problem with Vol
himself this is what Tom Holland has
pointed out in his book Dominion that
ultimately what voler does is he does a
Christian criticism of Christianity he
uses his his kind of taken for granted
Christian point of view and criticizes
Christianity with it and so we have to
be able to account for this Gap now this
is really the a good way to understand
it now if if people struggle to go with
the story of the fall of Adam Adam and
Eve that we find in scripture or the
fall of the angels that we find in more
kind of extra biblical sources as the
cause for The Gap and and a way to enter
into an explanation of the Gap then you
nonetheless have to account for that Gap
and this is a serious problem you have
to be able to understand why it is that
we experience the difference
now a good way to understand it is that
in terms of
our existence our existence is bound in
purpose this is something that we've
been talking about all the time like
with Jorge Jordan Peterson talks about
the idea that and and I've talked about
this myself and John drai talk about
this which is you know this kogai idea
that what you see in the world are
purposes like what you see in the world
is are paths towards action and so every
identity that you perceive is put into a
hierarchy of identity and a hierarchy of
purpose and things appear as obstacles
or Tools in order to get to your purpose
and so the very structure of the way
reality presents itself seems to have at
least the possib
of the fall in it and what do I mean by
that what I mean is that if we see the
world in Telos if we see the world
through purposes that is you know I have
certain purposes that are important to
me as a human and I establish my map of
the world the identities that I perceive
in that hierarchy first of all then all
my perceptions all my identities are
participating in the sense of distance
from purpose and so you can see how that
is akin to the fall which is the
perception that there is a gap between
my state and the state that I want to be
and this is of course what Dante
describes in the The Divine Comedy the
way that even classical philosophers
talk about the the relationship the
motor of Aros right the motor of desire
which moves us in our lack towards the
Ts that presents itself to us and we
find rest in that movement so of course
it sounds very abstract at the outset
but it's very very practical which is
that you know I have to go to the store
to go
shopping I see the door and now I
experience the my I experience my
purpose as a kind of suffering that is a
very small suffering but it's a
suffering that is in the sense that I am
now not in line with my purpose I have
to cover the gap between what it is that
I'm aiming at in my current state and
you could say that that is a definition
of suffering because you're not in the
your control of the situation right the
aim that you have is not manifested in
the world there's a gap between that so
you suffer and that suffering it's a
very small suffering but it is a
suffering of Desire that I suffer the I
suffer my distance from the door and now
I move towards the door and once I reach
the door then I am absolved like I am
healed I find rest from that suffering
now of course that suffering you could
say or that desire is embedded in more
and more desires so that you know I'm
always kind of moving from purpose and
Tails and desire into other purposes and
taow and desires
um and so our very perception of reality
and our very engagement with reality
seems to account for The Gap that's
distance between my state and the state
that I'm looking for now of course we
can see that in a proximal way right
which is you know I need to go to the
store and then I have this this little
process of let's say covering the fall
and moving towards the light moving
towards the reason and then finding rest
in that in that purpose but of course uh
you know all of these are you can also
see it in a more kind of abstract way
which is what is the purpose of my life
what is the purpose of my you know uh
the purpose of of of my job you know is
it just to make money but then why am I
making money if it's you know if I if I
want to have pleasure but then that
pleasure is serving what purpose exactly
there seems to be something in us which
is constantly let's say yearning and so
you could describe it in many ways you
could talk about the whole the
god-shaped hole in the human being and
that god-shaped ho is that Gap it's the
gap between the good that I perceive
even in intimation these higher Goods
that I perceive and my state of distance
between the two now the story of Genesis
is in my you know opinion is in my
perception the best way to understand
understand this Gap you know
because it is to become conscious of the
distance you could say that the the
knowledge of Good and Evil is in some
ways to become conscious of the Your
Existence in a kind of duality of inside
and outside a duality of me and the
purpose there's this duality of of of
the fact that I see the good and
identify myself in the place of bad and
now I have all of a sudden I'm in this
weird position where I have to cover
that distance and so this this it's the
act of self-consciousness itself which
is related to this problem of all of a
sudden seeing myself and seeing my
distance to the good that I am that I
pursuing and so the description of of
one of the facets of the description of
the fall in
Genesis is related to the
very a very desire to explain that
distance within us and to make it and to
help people understand that it's related
to self-consciousness it's related to
Duality it's related to the perception
of good purpose Telos reason and bad
which is distance sinfulness you know
the the missing the mark being far from
The Mark being far from the thing that
that I'm aiming at right it's the
distance between the two and this is of
course exactly described in Genesis
now the question is how do you uh cover
the Gap and this is of course what
Christ comes to show us but it's not a
very pleasant one at least at the outset
it doesn't seem very pleasant is that in
some ways we have to say yes to the
dying we we have to say yes to the state
of death that we're in yes in the sense
that we have to die on purpose instead
of dying per in you know on accident we
have to sacrifice everything towards the
aim that we have and that in that
sacrifice the suffering will become more
than suffering it will be a kind of
attractor a kind of thing that sucks us
into the good that we're aiming at and
and we will find a type
of joy in the suffering not a kind of
masochism not a enjoying of the
suffering but a joy in knowing that that
we
suffer in order to come closer to the
purpose that we're aiming at and that
definitely seems to be the the path that
Christ takes and the the path of the
Martyr you could say of course the
Martyr is an extreme version where all
of a sudden the Martyr has to all their
proximal goals all their little goals
right the goal of feeling my B belly the
goal of having a family the goal of
doing this and that and they end up
let's say being willing to suffer all
the lack of those little goals in order
to be able to reach the highest purpose
you know and then you realize that once
you realize that you realize that you do
that all the time actually that in fact
that structure of being willing to
suffer in purpose towards proximal goals
is something you do right that people
who train or people who learn to write
or people who learn anything when you're
learning you are suffering I mean it's
we have to be careful how we take this
suffering in the sense that we are we
are sacrificing our time and energy and
there's a kind of of a pain that is
submitted to a a higher purpose but if
we know what the higher purpose is and
we're moving in that higher purpose uh
you know with a kind of consciousness of
our solute of our situation which is a
consciousness of the distance between
the two then that suffering can be a
kind of joy and even the discipline of
learning something the kind of sacrifice
that you put into the higher things can
become a type of like a type of glory
and a type of joy and that's what we
ultimately see of course in the Martyr
as the ultimate example which is
everything his whole life everything
about them they're willing to sacrifice
and to give up all these proximal goals
in order to look at the highest goal uh
and you could say that in the fall of
the Garden of
Eden this is particularly true because
Adam and Eve when they eat the fruit of
the knowledge of Good and Evil they have
access to the tree of life and so they
perceive more far more before they ate
the fruit you know it's like they
couldn't see the tree of the of of life
this is of course the way it's presented
in St Ephraim the seran especially you
know that it was a kind of barrier for
the tree of life and once they took the
the the apple of the knowledge of Good
and Evil then they saw the good and then
they saw it from the position of
distance and then had to cover that
distance in pain and they refused to
suffer they refused to die at that
moment and that brought about the entire
Loop of human history and everything
about it but Jesus uh seems to show us a
different way but for sure what's
important to understand is is that the
very the image of the fall of course
there's a moral element to it you know
because we usually experience that in
moral in Morality terms like we see the
good that we want to do and then we
realize that we're not doing it and we
see the consequences of not doing it and
so we suffer from our sinfulness because
we can't get to the good we want you
know but this is true of everything it's
not just true of moral questions it's
true of all aspects
of of moving towards purpose every time
you move towards purpose you will have
that problem of the gap between where I
want to go and where I am and no matter
how much of a secularist you are even if
you refuse to accept the story version
the mythological imagery and the the
this the image of the falling of the
Angels because of Pride the image of the
taking of the fruit for for one self um
you still have to be able to account for
that and then that causes a problem
because usually what happens when people
don't try to account for it is they end
up being a a kind of critic of religion
critic of Christianity you know a Critic
of of of the religious aspect or Mor
moralistic aspect of the world while
ignoring their own position not knowing
that they are unconsciously perceiving
that good that's calling them and
they're using the light of that good to
criticize the failures of the current
the current models but uh but then they
don't try to account for that and they
don't try to make it part of their their
worldview and they don't have a way to
make it part of their worldview because
if we're just a bunch of random you know
whatever particles hitting each other
and that and there is no sense uh that
there is a structural relationship
between our state and what we're
perceiving as being
good then yeah then we're diluting
ourselves and so this I know this was a
little difficult but I've been thinking
about this for a long time so please
tell me if uh if this is clear in the
comment section I would love to see what
your thoughts are because I'm trying to
refine this argument obviously and then
hopefully you know if there are ways to
improve what I'm saying I will try to
take another path to this and try to get
it even clear and better but I'm really
on the edge of my thinking with this
this is this is really kind of pushing
my thinking as hard as I can and and you
know as as much to the edge as what as
what I can and so I thank you for your
attention I thank you for your support
and I will talk to all of you very soon
byebye
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