Why Snakes Are Associated With the Demonic and Lies | Jonathan Pageau & Fr. Andrew Damick

Summary

The script explores the symbolic association between dragons and lying, drawing parallels to serpents in mythology and scripture. Dragons, ancient and powerful beings, symbolize chaos and deception, much like demons in various religious texts. They embody agelessness and otherworldliness, posing a threat to human narratives when misunderstood or misinterpreted. The narrative delves into the nature of lies, deceitful spirits, and the challenge of resisting their influence, urging caution in engaging with ancient myths that can disrupt contemporary beliefs.

Takeaways

• 🐉 The association between dragons and lying is deeply rooted in the symbolism of serpents, often depicted as twisty and deceptive creatures.
• 📜 The serpent in biblical scripture is related to the concept of the sea monsters like Leviathan, symbolizing chaos and deception.
• 🌀 The snake's twisting nature is connected to the idea of lies, which deviate from a straight path, representing untruth and manipulation.
• 👅 The expression 'forked tongue' refers to the snake's duality, speaking two things at once, further linking it to deceit.
• 👿 Demons, often associated with serpents, are seen as deceivers, leading mankind away from truth and into rebellion against God.
• 🧩 There's no consistent system for categorizing demons or understanding their names in scripture; they are inherently deceitful and chaotic.
• 📚 Dragons, often depicted as ancient beings, symbolize the long-standing presence and influence of demonic forces in human history.
• ⚔️ Rejecting the influence of dragons or demons is crucial to not falling under their spell, emphasizing personal resistance to deception.
• 🌍 The concept of ancient beings like dragons and giants represents chaotic forces from a time before human order, which can destabilize and devour the present world.
• 🚨 The script warns against becoming too entangled with ancient myths or stories not part of one's own tradition, as they can lead to confusion and destruction.

Q & A

What is the main symbolism associated with dragons according to the script?

The main symbolism associated with dragons is connected to the serpent or snake, often representing deceit and the twisting of truth.

How is the concept of the serpent related to lying in the script?

The serpent is related to lying because of its physical attributes; it is twisty and bendy, which is used metaphorically to represent the twisting of untruth.

What is the connection between the serpent and the sea monster in the script?

The script suggests that the word for serpent, 'tannin', is connected to the sea monsters and the notion of the great sea serpent, the Leviathan.

What does the script say about the idea of truth and the serpent's role?

Truth is likened to an arrow hitting a target, while the serpent is the one that deviates from the straight path, embodying the concept of lying.

How is the concept of a forked tongue related to the serpent in the script?

A forked tongue represents the ability to speak two things at once or have two sides, which is likened to the serpent's dual nature and its association with deceit.

What is the difference between lying with a twisted purpose and lying for a 'mighty purpose' as mentioned in the script?

Lying with a twisted purpose is inherently negative, while lying for a 'mighty purpose' might be framed in a more positive light, such as a saint confessing to sins they haven't committed to prompt another to confess their actual sins.

How are demons depicted in relation to lying in the script?

Demons are closely associated with lying as they are depicted as deceitful spirits that aim to lead mankind into rebellion against God.

What is the significance of the age of dragons in the script?

Dragons are often depicted as ancient beings, symbolizing the long-standing presence and influence of chaos and deceit in the world.

How does the script connect the ancient nature of dragons to the concept of chaos?

The ancient nature of dragons is associated with chaos because they represent a time before our own, disconnected from our personal stories and thus having a destabilizing effect.

What is the primary lie that demons tell according to the script?

The primary lie that demons tell, as per the script, is that they do not exist, and that any thoughts one has are purely their own.

What is the importance of personal rejection when encountering a dragon in the script?

Personal rejection is crucial when encountering a dragon to avoid falling under their spell, signifying the importance of not accepting the lies they may represent.

Outlines

00:00

🐉 Dragon Symbolism and the Connection to Lying

This paragraph delves into the symbolic association between dragons and lying, drawing parallels with the serpent or snake symbolism found in scriptures. The dragon's twisty nature is likened to the act of lying, as it represents the deviation from the 'straight' path of truth. The serpent's forked tongue symbolizes speaking two things at once, which is a common trait attributed to liars. The discussion also touches on the concept of truth as a target and the serpent's ability to manipulate and deceive. It further explores the purpose behind lying, distinguishing between lies told for a 'mighty purpose' and those told with a twisted intent. The paragraph concludes with the acknowledgment of demons' association with lying, as they are depicted as deceitful spirits in both scripture and related literature.

05:01

👹 The Deceptive Nature of Dragons and the Importance of Rejection

The second paragraph focuses on the modern perception of demons and their primary deception—that they do not exist and that intrusive thoughts are merely one's own. It emphasizes the importance of recognizing that not all thoughts are self-originated and the role of demons in perpetuating certain thoughts to manipulate individuals. The paragraph also discusses the encounter with dragons, particularly in a one-on-one context, and the necessity of personal rejection to avoid being ensnared by their influence. The discussion extends to the significance of the dragon's age, drawing a connection to ancient beings and the chaos they represent due to their existence before our time. It warns of the potential for these ancient narratives to destabilize one's own story, using the example of Egyptology's impact on Christianity. The paragraph concludes with a biblical reference to God's judgment on the gods of Egypt, reinforcing the need to distance oneself from such ancient, chaotic forces.

Keywords

💡Dragons

Dragons in the video are symbolic of ancient, chaotic forces that are often associated with deception and danger. They are depicted as ancient beings with great power and a tendency to deceive, similar to demons. The concept of dragons in the discussion is tied to the idea of resisting falsehoods and manipulative influences that seek to overpower or destabilize individuals and societies.

💡Lying

Lying is central to the symbolism of dragons in the video, representing the twisting of truth. The serpent, often seen as a precursor to the dragon, is used to illustrate how lies are spread—by twisting the truth in a way that misleads others. The idea of a 'forked tongue' is mentioned, highlighting how deception can take multiple forms and lead to confusion and chaos.

💡Serpent

The serpent is a key symbol related to dragons, representing the beginning of deception in scriptural terms, as seen in the story of the Garden of Eden. The serpent's twisty, bendy nature is contrasted with the straightness of truth, making it a natural symbol for lying and manipulation. This imagery is used to explain how untruths can take many forms and lead people away from the truth.

💡Chaos

Chaos in the video refers to the disorder and confusion that arises from ancient, pre-existing forces like dragons and serpents. These forces are seen as destabilizing because they exist outside of the structured story or order of our current world. The chaotic nature of these beings can 'devour' or disrupt the established order if not carefully managed or understood.

💡Ancient Beings

Ancient beings, such as dragons, serpents, and titans, are depicted as existing before human civilization, representing primordial chaos. Their age gives them a sense of power and danger, as they are disconnected from the human story and can therefore disrupt it. These beings are often associated with deception, manipulation, and the undermining of human order.

💡Demonic Beings

Demonic beings are discussed as entities that deceive and lead humans into rebellion against God. They are closely associated with dragons and serpents, embodying the same qualities of deception and chaos. The video emphasizes that demons have been misleading humans for millennia and are expert liars, which makes them particularly dangerous.

💡Truth

Truth is portrayed as a straight path or arrow, contrasting with the twisting nature of lies and deception symbolized by serpents and dragons. The video highlights the importance of adhering to truth and rejecting the twisted logic or manipulation that these chaotic beings represent. Truth is seen as a goal or purpose that must be maintained to resist deception.

💡Forked Tongue

The concept of a 'forked tongue' is used to describe how deception can occur by speaking two things at once or presenting multiple truths. This imagery is tied to the serpent and dragon symbolism, where a single being can mislead by presenting conflicting or twisted information. The forked tongue represents the duality and confusion inherent in lies.

💡Rejection

Rejection is a key concept in resisting the influence of dragons and demons. The video emphasizes that to avoid falling under the spell of these deceptive beings, one must actively reject their lies and manipulations. This personal act of rejection is necessary to maintain one's connection to truth and avoid being overpowered by chaos.

💡Monstrous Quality

Monstrous quality refers to the terrifying and destabilizing nature of ancient beings like dragons, serpents, and titans. These creatures are monstrous because they are not part of the current human order and have the potential to disrupt or destroy it. The video discusses the importance of keeping a distance from these ancient stories to avoid their potentially harmful influence.

Highlights

Jonathan explains the association between dragons and lying by linking dragons to serpents and snakes, emphasizing the symbolism of twisting and bending, which is related to deceit.

The symbolism of the dragon is connected to the serpent or snake, which is associated with lying due to its twisty and bending nature, representing untruths.

In scripture, there is a relationship between the word for serpent (tannin) and sea monsters like the leviathan, which are connected to the notion of the great sea serpent.

Jonathan draws an analogy between the straightness of a tree and the twisty, bendy nature of a snake, explaining how the serpent's twisting motion symbolizes the distortion of truth.

The phrase 'forked tongue' is highlighted as another example of how snakes symbolize lying, with their ability to speak two things at the same time.

Jonathan discusses the concept of truth as an arrow hitting a target and contrasts it with the serpent's twisting movement, which represents lying and manipulation.

There is a distinction made between lying with a twisted purpose and framing facts in a certain manner for a greater good, as seen in ascetic writings where saints confess sins they haven't committed to help others confess.

Jonathan mentions that demons are closely associated with lying, as seen with the serpent in the Garden of Eden, emphasizing their role in deceiving mankind.

A discussion is brought up about the inconsistency in the names and identities of demons in scripture and related literature, pointing out that they are deceitful spirits, making it difficult to sort them out.

The ancient nature of dragons is highlighted, noting that they are often depicted as beings that have existed for a long time, similar to the way mankind has encountered demons.

Demons are described as bodiless and ancient, having afflicted mankind for thousands of years, making them experienced and expert liars.

In pastoral work, it's important to recognize that not all thoughts come from oneself; some may be planted by demons who know one's susceptibilities.

The discussion touches on Tolkien's dragons and how encountering them requires a personal rejection to avoid falling under their spell, representing the need to reject the lies they present.

The concept of the 'ancient dragon' is linked to the mythologies of giants and titans, representing chaos and the power of destabilization when dealing with stories from times before our own.

A warning is given about becoming too engrossed in ancient myths, such as Egyptian mythology, which can lead to confusion and the distortion of one's own cultural and religious narratives.

The Exodus is mentioned as an example where God judges the gods of Egypt, calling His people out of the Egyptian story and into their own, symbolizing the need to leave behind the chaos of ancient stories.

Transcripts

i'd love to hear jonathan's take on the

association between

dragons and lying so thoughts on that

yeah the it's funny because the way that

the question is phrased is perfect to

understand the relationship between

dragons and lying

the symbolism of the dragon a lot of it

is really

connected to the symbolism of the

serpent or the symbolism of the snake

and you see it in scripture there's a

relationship

of course between the word for serpent

in some

cases tannin and the notion of the sea

monsters the idea of the

the leviathan is also connected to the

notion of the great sea serpent

and so it's really it's a very intuitive

thing to understand

that the snake is the twisty the snake

is exactly

that bending that's one of the reasons

why the snake

is the one that lies to us because

there's imagine the tree which is a

straight and then imagine the snake

which is bendy and turns

and that's the turning of of

untruth let's say you can imagine truth

as an

arrow hitting a target and then you can

imagine the serpent

as the one that takes that moves from

left to right

and takes twisty ways in order to get

what it wants

and so there's an in and we even use

this notion also

and it's also about the one and the many

so right we say a forked

tongue this idea of speaking two things

at the same time or

having two sides at the same time and

that's also the snake because the snake

can be

in two places at the same time in his

own body and so there's a very intuitive

connection to the way that

snakes present themselves to us and the

relationship

of that to to lying and to manipulating

and of course there is a difference

between and it has to do with purpose

and this is why also you know when you

talk about

the idea of let's say of of

slightly frame of framing facts in a

certain manner in order to reach a good

goal let's say or in order to attain a a

mighty purpose you know you even see

saints in in ascetic writings of uh

fathers who confess sins that they

haven't done in order to

get the other person to confess a sin

that they really have you see this kind

of behavior

where it's really towards the the the

health of the person truth as a as a

purpose as a goal

um and then if the purpose is to twist

and bend

then that is mostly what the lie is it's

mostly

a twisted purpose in the end

yeah and i'll add that demons of course

are closely associated you know

there's the demon that is the serpent in

the garden

um and demons are closely associated

with lying i mean that's that's

that's what they do is they deceive

right because they're trying to lead

mankind

into rebellion against god and

i i once asked i'm going to try not to

bring him up three times because if you

bring up father stephen deyoung three

times

in a podcast episode then he appears but

yeah but but i was having this

conversation with him

about demons and names for demons that

are given in scripture and in some of

the

literature that surrounds scripture and

informs scripture and i said so

this one is another name for satan and

this one is another name for the devil

and satan and the devil are not

necessarily the same

person and like which you know he said

look

it doesn't work out you can't there's

not a system

there's not a system that's a good way

that's really helpful to say that

there's not a system there's not a

system

you can't say that just because for

instance uh in the book of jubilees

there's this demon

named mastama who seems to be kind of

chief of demons

um who might be satan who might be the

devil and again

those are not necessarily the same

person although in some sources they

seem to be the same person

and i said i said well how do you like

is there some key to all of this some

you know that can figure it out he said

he said

these are lying deceitful spirits

why would you think that there's going

to be some easy way to sort them out

you know like this is their actual

reality so

of course the way that mankind has

encountered them over the centuries and

the millennia

is not going to be consistent it's not

going to be in any way that we can make

sense of

yeah you know and and so you know

dragons it's interesting how dragons are

often depicted in in

almost any literature is is one of the

things that they that's really

characteristic of them is

age typically that they're usually

depicted as ancient beings

yeah right and isn't that the way that

mankind has encountered demons i mean

demons

are compared to us bodyless and so

therefore they don't get old and die

the same demons have been afflicting

mankind for how we don't know how long

you know thousands of years and over

that time they've appeared in many ways

and done lots of different kinds of

things i mean they're very experienced

and they're expert liars and it seems in

our day that the primary lie is

i don't exist the thoughts that you're

having are just you

that seems to be the main lie that they

tell these days uh

you know and you know in in the pastor

work that i've done i've often

had to say to people just because you

have a thought doesn't mean it comes

from you

yeah there's not you know it's not a

flaw that you have

that you keep having this thought it's

that in many cases that the demons know

that you're susceptible to this thought

so they're going to keep saying it until

you accept it

you know and the key is not to accept it

even if you accept it in the past

you don't have to accept it and i think

that's one of the things that you can

see for instance

in um with tolkien's dragons we're going

to talk about them

you know individually but um is that

there is this rejection that has to

happen

that the way that a dragon at least the

ones that tend to when people encounter

them one-on-one

right i'm not talking about when the

dragon comes and just destroys your town

uh although that happens too but uh you

know when you encounter one-on-one there

has to be this this personal rejection

that has to happen

in order to kind of not fall under their

spell

right and i think that that's that's

part of the lie

you know that that um we we accept what

the dragon says

on some level we we believe it or want

to believe it or think that we have no

choice but to believe it

yeah you know um and and therefore he

overpowers us

there's also something important to

understand in terms of the age of the

dragon the idea of the ancient dragon

it's also related

just like in the mythologies of giants

and you know the mythology of the titans

for example in greek mythology and in

different

cultures have this idea of these ancient

beings that are there before

our time and the before our time is

really important

to understand what these creatures are

to us you know because they like i

talked about how they are

chaos and there's a sense in which

everything that is before

our time is somewhat chaotic because

it's not connected to you

it's not part of your story it's some

weird story from some

other time from time before you sometime

very far away

and so because of that it has that

monstrous

quality to it and it also has that kind

of

it has the that power of the dragon

because it

it because it doesn't it's not part of

the story you're in

it can have a destabilizing function

right it can

devour your world if you're not careful

with it you know and you see that

you see it you see you saw it happen

very very explicitly in

the kind of egyptology madness you know

where people

became obsessed with egyptian mythology

and uh it wasn't our story and people

didn't understand those stories they're

not connected to your story

and then the these weird egyptian myths

started to like devour

our stories and not long after you had

people

somehow claiming that christianity is an

egyptian

religion or all this kind of nonsense

that you you hear all over the place

because it's these ancient ancient

stories which are before us

and you have to keep them at a certain

distance from you just like even like

when we

you know i study greek myths and i study

ancient mythology i find them

interesting

but i have to be careful because they're

not my story they're

they're we can just look at them from

afar and be

be find them interesting and see some

connections but you have to be careful

not to jump into it because it's a

dangerous beast to play with right

and you know it's notable that in the

exodus

that god says that he has judged the

gods of egypt

you know so on the one hand he's

defeating actual demonic beings and

calling

his people out but he's calling his

people out

you know they're not part of that

egyptian story anymore

they have to come out they're now israel