The Difference Between Iconography and Idolatry | Alex O'Connor & Jonathan Pageau

Summary

The speaker delves into the human fascination with creating icons versus idols, highlighting the difference where icons lead to higher participation, while idols capture attention for their own sake. They discuss how secular society is filled with idols, such as advertising, which can be seen as a form of idolatry, promising fulfillment but often failing to point towards a higher good. The conversation also touches on the potential dangers of excessive focus on things like sex and alcohol, which can become 'gods' in people's lives, overshadowing other important aspects and higher goods.

Takeaways

• 😇 The script discusses the human tendency to create icons and the distinction between icons and idols in religious and secular contexts.
• 🏛 In Christian theology, an icon is seen as a conduit to the transcendent, leading to higher participation, whereas an idol is self-contained and does not point to anything higher.
• 📺 The secular age is filled with idols that capture attention and demand worship, often serving as false promises of fulfillment, like advertising that suggests material possessions can satisfy desires.
• 🐄 The Old Testament story of the golden calf is used as an example of idolatry, where people created an idol to gather around and satisfy their immediate desires.
• 🍺 The script suggests that substances like alcohol and behaviors like excessive sexual focus can become idols when they capture one's attention to the extent that they overshadow other aspects of life.
• 🎤 Worship is described as the highest point of attention, something that does not fit into a higher good and becomes the ultimate focus of one's devotion.
• 🔍 The concept of 'worship' is explored, questioning what it means to worship something and whether it is possible or appropriate to worship objects or even people.
• 🌐 The speaker argues that certain things in the world are more likely to capture our full attention, potentially becoming idols, and that this can be dangerous if it prevents us from focusing on higher goods.
• 🍲 The script uses the example of cooking and family meals to illustrate how activities can be part of a larger, meaningful context that points towards higher goods, such as love and community.
• 🧬 An evolutionary perspective is introduced to discuss why humans might be predisposed to focus on certain pleasures, like sex, and how modern technology can exacerbate this tendency in ways that are not conducive to long-term well-being.
• 🌐 The importance of embedding pleasures within a framework of higher goods is emphasized, suggesting that this is necessary for maintaining the true pleasure and value of these experiences.

Q & A

What is the main topic of discussion in the provided transcript?

The main topic of discussion is the concept of iconography and the distinction between icons and idols in the context of secular and religious societies.

Why do humans seem obsessed with making icons according to the transcript?

Humans are described as being obsessed with making icons because they serve as a 'ladder of participation', pointing towards higher, transcendent values or ideals.

What is the difference between an icon and an idol as explained in the transcript?

An icon is something that points to the transcendent and leads to higher participation, while an idol captures attention and keeps it within itself, not offering a path to a higher good.

How does the speaker relate the concept of idols to modern society?

The speaker suggests that modern society is filled with idols, such as advertising, which asks for attention in a way that is purely subservient to the thing itself, often promising to fulfill desires without pointing to a higher good.

What is an example of an idol from the Old Testament mentioned in the transcript?

The golden calf is an example of an idol from the Old Testament, which was made when Moses was away and the people needed something tangible to gather around.

What does the speaker mean by 'worship' in the context of the discussion?

Worship is described as the highest point of one's attention, where there is no higher good. It is the point of attention that does not fit into a higher good and is solely focused on the object of worship itself.

Can a microphone be an idol according to the transcript?

The transcript suggests that it would be difficult to worship a microphone because it is not something that naturally captures full attention in a way that could become an end in itself, unlike substances or behaviors that can become addictive.

What is the speaker's view on the role of technology in relation to idols?

The speaker believes that technology can afford unlimited access to stimuli, such as sexual stimulus, which can overpower a person and become counterproductive to evolutionary goals, leading to issues like a decline in population and sexual dysfunction.

How does the speaker connect the concept of icons and idols to evolutionary biology?

The speaker suggests that an obsession with the act and pleasure of sex, which can be seen as an idol, is counterproductive to evolutionary goals, which include the rearing of children and family relations ensuring the continuation of the species.

What is the speaker's view on the necessity of constraining pleasures like eating and sex into higher goods?

The speaker argues that pleasures need to be encased and constrained into higher goods to maintain their value and prevent them from becoming overwhelming idols that can lead to a loss of pleasure and focus on something more meaningful.

How does the speaker describe the relationship between icons and the infinite Transcendent?

The speaker describes icons as existing in one's life because they point to something higher, such as Christ in the case of St. John the Baptist, and ultimately to the infinite, invisible Transcendent.

Outlines

00:00

🗿 The Role of Icons and Idols in Society

This paragraph discusses the human tendency to create and venerate icons, which are seen as representations that point towards the transcendent, as opposed to idols, which are self-contained and do not offer a path to higher participation. The speaker differentiates between the two by explaining that icons, like religious icons, serve as a ladder to the divine, while idols capture attention and demand worship for their own sake, often seen in modern advertising and material possessions. The paragraph also touches on the dangers of idolatry, where objects or concepts become the center of one's life, overshadowing the pursuit of higher goods.

05:01

🔮 The Impact of Sexuality and Modern Technology on Evolutionary Goals

The speaker reflects on the overwhelming nature of sexuality during youth and how it can distort one's perception of the world, organizing experiences solely through a sexual lens. They contrast this with the evolutionary purpose of sex, which is not solely about pleasure but also about the nurturing and continuation of offspring. The paragraph further explores how modern technology provides an unprecedented access to sexual stimuli, which can be counterproductive to evolutionary goals. The speaker argues that pleasures like sex and food must be integrated into a broader context of higher goods to be truly fulfilling and not become enslaving idols that detract from one's pursuit of transcendent values.

Keywords

💡Iconography

Iconography refers to the artistic representation of sacred subjects or symbols, especially in religious contexts. In the video, the speaker discusses how humans have historically been obsessed with creating icons, which are symbolic images that point beyond themselves to a higher, transcendent reality. This concept is central to the theme of the video, as it explores the human tendency to create and venerate images, whether religious or secular.

💡Secular Age

The term 'secular age' is used to describe a period or society in which religious faith and institutions are less central to daily life and public discourse. The speaker mentions the secular age to contrast it with the traditional religious context, suggesting that even in a secularized society, people still create and are influenced by 'icons' and 'idols', albeit in different forms.

💡Icon vs. Idol

The distinction between an 'icon' and an 'idol' is a key concept in the video. An icon is seen as a conduit to the transcendent, leading to higher participation, while an idol is self-contained and seeks to capture attention without pointing to anything beyond itself. This distinction is crucial to understanding the speaker's argument about how modern society is filled with idols that demand our attention without offering a path to higher meaning.

💡Transcendent

Transcendent refers to something that goes beyond the ordinary or material world, often associated with the divine or infinite. In the script, the speaker uses the term to describe the ultimate reality or higher power that icons traditionally point towards, in contrast to idols, which are self-absorbed and do not lead to any higher good.

💡Idolatry

Idolatry is the worship of idols, or the excessive devotion to anything other than the divine. The speaker uses this term to critique modern society, where advertising and material goods can become the focus of our attention and desires, effectively becoming modern-day idols that we 'worship'.

💡Participation

Participation, in the context of the video, refers to the idea of engaging with or being part of something greater than oneself. The speaker contrasts this with the self-contained nature of idols, arguing that icons should facilitate a form of participation that leads to a higher, transcendent reality.

💡Golden Calf

The 'golden calf' is a biblical reference used in the video to illustrate the concept of idolatry. In the script, the speaker recounts the story of the Israelites making a golden calf while Moses was receiving the Ten Commandments, symbolizing their turning away from the transcendent to focus on a tangible, material idol.

💡Worship

Worship, as discussed in the video, is the act of giving one's highest attention or devotion to something. The speaker explains that worship should ideally be directed towards the transcendent, but in modern society, it is often misdirected towards idols, such as material possessions or personal desires.

💡Sexuality

Sexuality is discussed in the video as a natural human drive that, if not ordered correctly, can become an idol that captures one's full attention. The speaker argues that while sex is good, it must be integrated into a larger context of higher goods to avoid becoming a destructive force in one's life.

💡Evolutionary Biology

The speaker briefly touches on evolutionary biology to explain why humans might be naturally predisposed to focus on sex. However, they argue that an overemphasis on the act of sex itself, without considering the broader context of relationships and family, can be counterproductive to evolutionary goals.

💡Technology

Technology is mentioned in the video as a factor that can exacerbate the problem of idolatry by providing unlimited access to stimuli that can overpower an individual's ability to focus on higher goods. The speaker uses the example of pornography to illustrate how technology can contribute to a decline in population and other negative consequences.

Highlights

Human's obsession with making icons and the problem of idolatry in the scriptural tradition.

The difference between an icon and an idol in Christian theology.

Icons as a ladder of participation towards the Transcendent.

Idols as things that capture attention purely for themselves.

Advertising as a form of idolatry that tries to capture your desires.

The story of the golden calf as an example of idol worship in the Old Testament.

The concept of worship as the highest point of attention.

The difficulty of worshiping a mundane object like a microphone.

Alcohol and its potential to become a God for some people.

Sexuality as something good that needs to be ordered properly.

The evolutionary perspective on why people become obsessed with sex.

The importance of constraining pleasures like sex and food into higher goods.

How technology provides unlimited sexual stimulus that can overpower a person.

The negative consequences of excessive pornography consumption.

The need to embed pleasures into higher participation for them to remain good.

The danger of viewing the world solely through the lens of sex.

The challenge of directing worship towards the Transcendent instead of immediate pleasures.

Transcripts

well humans we were talking earlier

about iconography humans

seem obsessed with making icons they

love making icons and in fact in the old

scriptural tradition part of the problem

is that you know Moses pops up to the

mountain and comes back down and then

they've made a new icon it's like they

can't stop making icons all the

time that doesn't go away just because

we don't believe in God anymore uh you

know Society is secularizing and all

that what do you think are the icons of

the the secular age yeah well so there's

a way I think there's a it's especially

in Christian theology like what we'll do

is we will separate the difference

between icon and Idol and the difference

between an icon and Idol is that the

icon affords the Transcendent that is it

is pointed to it is of it is not

something which stops at itself but

rather leads up towards higher

participation so it's like if I

encounter an image of St John the St

John the Baptist well the image of St

John the Baptist only exists in my life

because he pointed to Christ and that

image of Christ only exists in my life

because he pointed to the infinite

invisible Transcendent and so that is

the way that icons function there

they're a kind of ladder of

participation the idea with of about

Idols is that in some ways they are

factitious they try to capture it all in

in themselves right they try to kind of

capture your attention and keep it

within its sphere they don't the idol

doesn't offer itself up to a higher

participation and so I would say that in

our world now we are surrounded with

Idols constantly that is we we are

constantly asked to give our attention

to things in ways which are purely

subservient to the to the thing itself

right advertising itself has a form of

idolatry to it because the the

the sometimes advertising can be

pointing to a higher good but most of

the time it's not most of the time it's

just like by this thing it will

accomplish all your desires I will give

you what you want if you get this thing

and so there's a sense in which if I can

just get that then I will get what I

want and that's the way in which you

know Idols are represented in uh in the

Old Testament if you look at that story

of the the the calf the the golden calf

for example right it's like Moses goes

up to get the Revelation people down

here were like well we need something

here we need something to kind of gather

us together they make this golden calf

and then they have an orgy basically

it's like the the the the the idol

affords you your desires so that's why

it's related to you know that's why it

can be related to anything that you give

your your attention to Too Much whether

it's you know porn whether it's alcohol

we all the classical things that that

can capture you and can can become your

God for all intents and purposes uh but

I mean would it be would it be right to

say that pornography or alcohol are

Idols I mean and and the thing that

people do with Idols is they worship

them and I suppose another thing that

I'm a bit unclear on is what it means to

worship something can I can I worship

this microphone uh can can I worship you

could drink you yeah it would be a

little ridiculous that is the worship is

the best way to understand worship is

you could say that it is the highest

point of your

attention right it is the it is the

point of attention in which there is

no there is no higher it doesn't fit

into a higher good so a good ex like

it's this is not woo woo like I I want

to be careful people to think like oh

here what's Jonathan talking about right

so it's like you're making food and

you're cutting the onions right you give

attention to that but that attention is

bound in the recipe that you're making

and the making of that recipe is bound

in the fact that you're going to sit

together as a family and

and that sitting together as a family

and eat is bound into the love of the

Family itself as a as something which

provides you know and then you can keep

scaling that up all the way up to the

highest good which is the the the

infinite Transcendent and

so there are some things in the world

that are more in danger of capturing our

attention fully and you know and it's

just by the nature of who we are it's

obviously a microphone it would be

difficult for you to worship a

microphone it' be harder but but alcohol

is the good it's fine but it it can

become a God and we know people for who

it does become a God and it does kind of

take over their lives and it's the same

with I wouldn't say pornography but I

would say sex let's say sexuality is

obviously something good and but it has

to be ordered in a certain way for it to

not become something that traps you and

kind of uh takes over your your

attention so that you can't think of

other things and you can't you can't uh

let's say put your attention into high

you know and you everybody knows it like

especially if you remember when you were

I mean I I'm older now but when I was 19

or whatever right it was really

difficult to think mean you think about

sex all the time it was just would take

over your your your your your field of

experience you would see the world

through through the lens of sex right

you would notice things and things the

world would kind of organize itself in

that in that way and that's that can be

dangerous because that's not actually

how the world works it's the world isn't

only made of sex it's made of all kinds

of other things have to fit together

towards towards higher Goods I mean

there's of course a sense in which it

makes sense as an atheist uh thinking

about evolutionary biology why people

just become obsessed with sex in this

way I mean it is the mechanism by which

things are are created it seems less

natural to me in other words to suppress

that in order to focus our attention on

what the religious will say is really

the creative power here this is the this

is the real force that we should be

focusing on why is it such a in other

words if worship is is supposed to be

directed towards the Transcendent and

and God then why is it such an unnatural

experience of so many people why is it

so difficult well it it'd be interesting

to even take your your the way that you

say sex I think that even using

evolutionary structures being obsessed

with the Act and the pleasure of sex is

actually counterproductive to The

evolutionary goals uh because the the

survival of this species is not bound up

only in the orgasm like there's a

there's a whole buffer around that which

has to do with the rearing of shelding

especially in terms of of human the how

humans uh deal with children there's a

whole structure around that has to do

with the rearing of children and the the

the famili relations just which will

assure the continuation of of your line

whatever however you want to think of it

and so the buffer around sexuality is

already a constraint on the pleasure of

sexuality uh you know one of the

problems that we have now you could say

is that technology in some ways affords

something which was impossible in an

ancient world right affords unlimited

access to insane amounts of of uh of

stimulus of sexual stimulus that in some

ways overpowers can overpower a person

in a way that is not conducive to

evolutionary questions and the proof of

that is that that a pornography leads to

decline in population to some extent it

leads to to erection problems it leads

to all these these these difficulties

that that will not bring about the

continuation and so the the the

religious is is the highest point of

understanding that the smallest good

that I feel whether it's the pleasure of

eating the pleasure of sex these

different Pleasures have to be encased

and have to be constrained into higher

goods and to some extent for you to even

have those right if you want sexuality

to be pleasure and not just a master

that that kind of overwhelms you it has

to be kind of it has to be bound into

these higher goods and the same with

food is if food is just if you just eat

food for pleasure at some point you will

no longer have pleasure eating food if

you only have sex for pleasure at some

point you will no longer have pleasure

in sex in order for the thing to be good

it has to be kind of embedded into these

higher participation yeah if it no

longer

points towards something more or or is

done in the in the in the in the with

the sort of attention focus towards

something else and something more

then I suppose like you were saying a

moment ago it becomes an idol rather

than an icon it it becomes an end rather

than a window through which to to look

at what really is beautiful and and true

um fascinating