The Second Most Essential Exercise for Managing Anxiety and Anxious Thoughts - Anxiety Course 15/30

Summary

This video script offers practical advice on managing anxiety and overthinking through mindfulness. It explains why traditional worry suppression can backfire, referencing the 'White Bear Experiment' to illustrate the paradox of thought suppression. The script introduces Nick Wignall, an anxiety expert, who simplifies mindfulness practice for viewers, emphasizing it as a muscle-training exercise rather than a quick fix. He provides a straightforward method to focus on breath and redirect attention, advocating for longer practice sessions to achieve significant results and change in brain structure, ultimately leading to reduced anxiety.

Takeaways

• 😌 Overthinking and worrying are common issues, but they can't be easily 'turned off' as they are deeply ingrained responses.
• 🤔 Four cognitive skills discussed in previous videos can help with anxiety: challenging negative thoughts, cognitive defusion, dropping the struggle with anxiety about anxiety, and scheduled worry.
• 🧠 Mindfulness is a powerful tool to decrease anxiety by managing the perception of danger that triggers anxiety responses.
• 🎯 Mindfulness is often misunderstood; it's not just a coping strategy but an exercise to retrain the brain to be less anxious.
• 🛑 The 'White Bear Experiment' illustrates the concept of thought suppression, showing that trying not to think about something can make it recur more.
• 🔄 The more we resist worry, the more our brain focuses on it, interpreting it as a threat and thus increasing worry.
• 💡 Thoughts are uncontrollable, but we can control our attention and choose what to focus on, which is key to managing worry.
• 🌟 Mindfulness practice involves focusing on the sensation of breathing, noticing when the mind wanders, and gently bringing attention back without judgment.
• 🏋️‍♂️ Mindfulness should be approached like physical exercise, starting small but gradually increasing duration to build mental 'muscle'.
• 🕒 For effective mindfulness practice, aim for longer sessions (20-30 minutes) rather than short ones to see significant progress in managing anxiety.
• 🌱 Being gentle and non-judgmental with oneself during mindfulness practice is crucial for building a healthier relationship with one's thoughts and emotions.

Q & A

What are the four cognitive skills discussed in the previous videos to help with anxiety?

The four cognitive skills discussed are challenging automatic negative thoughts, cognitive defusion, dropping the struggle with anxiety about anxiety, and scheduled worry.

What is the concept of thought suppression in psychology?

Thought suppression is the phenomenon where attempting not to think about a specific thought or image actually leads to its increased occurrence, as demonstrated in Daniel Wagner's White Bear Experiment.

Why is it counterproductive to resist worry?

Resisting worry can be counterproductive because it signals to the brain that the worry is significant and should be attended to more, thus increasing the frequency of worry.

How can mindfulness practice help in managing anxiety?

Mindfulness practice helps by training the brain to control attention better, allowing individuals to shift focus away from anxiety-inducing thoughts and towards the present moment or more productive activities.

What is the common misconception about mindfulness as a coping strategy?

The common misconception is that mindfulness should be used as a quick fix to feel less anxious in the moment, rather than as a consistent practice to strengthen the ability to control attention and manage anxiety over time.

What is the recommended approach to mindfulness for attention training?

The recommended approach is to sit down, relax, close the eyes, and focus on the sensation of breathing without altering it, while gently bringing the attention back to the breath each time it wanders.

Why is it important to practice mindfulness regularly and for longer periods?

Regular and longer mindfulness practice helps build the 'attention muscle,' making it stronger and more capable of handling anxiety and worry, similar to physical exercise building physical strength.

What is the recommended duration for starting mindfulness practice?

It is recommended to start with short sessions of 2 to 5 minutes, gradually increasing to 10 minutes, and then to 20 to 30 minutes within a week to see significant progress.

How should one approach mindfulness practice to maximize its benefits?

One should approach mindfulness practice with the mindset of exercising a muscle, not expecting immediate relaxation but being prepared for the challenge and seeing the value in the difficulty.

What is the role of gentleness and self-compassion in mindfulness practice?

Gentleness and self-compassion are key in mindfulness practice to avoid self-judgment and to foster a positive relationship with oneself, which is crucial for long-term adherence and benefit from the practice.

What are some potential benefits of mindfulness practice beyond reducing anxiety?

Beyond reducing anxiety, mindfulness can improve attention control, foster self-compassion, and lead to a better relationship with oneself, enhancing overall mental well-being.

Outlines

00:00

😖 Overcoming Overthinking and Anxiety

The speaker introduces the topic of overthinking and anxiety, expressing the difficulty of simply 'turning off' worry. They mention four cognitive skills previously discussed in videos to help with anxiety: challenging negative thoughts, cognitive defusion, dropping the struggle with anxiety about anxiety, and scheduled worry. The speaker emphasizes the importance of mindfulness practice as the most effective way to control attention and decrease anxiety, despite its difficulty and common misunderstandings.

05:04

🧠 The Paradox of Thought Suppression

The paragraph delves into the concept of thought suppression, referencing Daniel Wagner's 'White Bear Experiment' to illustrate how attempting not to think about something can lead to an increase in thoughts about it. This paradox is related to chronic worry, as the resistance to worry can make it more persistent. The speaker suggests that understanding this mechanism is key to overcoming the cycle of worry.

10:06

🤔 Training the Brain to Focus

The discussion shifts to how to train the brain to choose what to focus on. The speaker uses the analogy of training a dog or a child to emphasize that controlling attention is an exercise that requires practice. They introduce the concept of mindfulness as a training method, correcting common misconceptions about its use as a quick-fix coping strategy rather than a long-term skill development.

15:07

🌬 The Basics of Mindfulness Practice

The speaker outlines a simple approach to mindfulness for attention training, which involves sitting down, relaxing, and focusing on the sensation of breathing without altering it. They acknowledge that distractions will occur but emphasize that the practice lies in noticing these distractions and refocusing on the breath, viewing the process as an exercise to strengthen the ability to control attention.

20:10

🏋️‍♂️ Committing to Mindfulness for Progress

The speaker argues against the slow and gradual approach to mindfulness, suggesting that longer and more consistent sessions are necessary to see significant progress in reducing anxiety. They compare mindfulness to physical exercise, where the initial discomfort is part of building strength. The goal is to increase the duration of practice to 20-30 minutes to truly challenge and develop the attention control 'muscle'.

🕵️‍♀️ The Benefits of Mindfulness Beyond Anxiety Reduction

The final paragraph highlights the additional benefits of mindfulness beyond anxiety reduction, such as fostering a kinder relationship with oneself. The speaker advises being gentle with oneself during practice and emphasizes that mindfulness is an exercise, not just a feel-good activity. They encourage viewers to start with short sessions and gradually increase the duration, aiming for longer sessions to experience the full benefits.

Keywords

💡Overthinking

Overthinking refers to the act of excessively analyzing or dwelling on a thought or situation, often leading to anxiety or indecision. In the video's context, it is one of the cognitive issues discussed that can contribute to anxiety. The script mentions that overthinking is hard to stop because it's not simply a switch that can be turned off, indicating its complexity and the need for strategies to manage it.

💡Anxiety

Anxiety is a feeling of unease, worry, or fear often without a specific cause. It is a central theme in the video, with the script discussing various cognitive skills to help manage anxiety. The video aims to provide methods to decrease anxiety by altering the perception of danger and through mindfulness practices.

💡Cognitive Skills

Cognitive skills are the mental processes used to interpret and understand information. The script outlines four cognitive skills that can help with anxiety: challenging automatic negative thoughts, cognitive defusion, dropping the struggle with anxiety about anxiety, and scheduled worry. These skills are presented as techniques to manage overthinking and worrying.

💡Cognitive Defusion

Cognitive defusion is a psychological technique that involves changing one's relationship with their thoughts, reducing their emotional impact. The script refers to cognitive defusion as one of the skills that can help an individual detach from their anxious thoughts, thereby reducing their influence.

💡Scheduled Worry

Scheduled worry is a technique where an individual sets aside a specific time to worry about their concerns, rather than letting them interfere with daily life. The video script suggests that this practice can drastically decrease the amount of time spent worrying, as part of a broader strategy to manage anxiety.

💡Mindfulness

Mindfulness is the practice of being fully present and engaged in the current moment without judgment. The script emphasizes mindfulness as an effective way to retrain the brain to be less anxious. It is presented as a skill that, despite its difficulty for some, is essential for managing attention and decreasing anxiety.

💡Perception of Danger

The perception of danger is the cognitive interpretation of a threat or risk, which can trigger an anxiety response. The video script explains that the most effective way to decrease anxiety is to stop constantly perceiving danger, as this perception repeatedly triggers the anxiety response throughout the day.

💡Thought Suppression

Thought suppression is the act of trying to prevent certain thoughts from entering consciousness, often paradoxically leading to an increase in the frequency of those thoughts. The script references the 'White Bear Experiment' to illustrate this phenomenon, explaining why trying not to worry can actually make worry more persistent.

💡Attention Control

Attention control refers to the ability to manage and direct one's focus. The video script suggests that learning to control attention is key to reducing anxiety, as it allows individuals to shift their focus away from worries and towards more productive or positive aspects of their lives.

💡Worry Cycle

A worry cycle is a pattern of repetitive, anxious thoughts that can trap an individual in a loop of worry. The script discusses the importance of breaking this cycle through mindfulness and attention control, to prevent the escalation of worry into chronic anxiety.

💡Non-judgmental

Non-judgmental refers to an attitude of acceptance without evaluation or criticism. In the context of the video, being non-judgmental is crucial for mindfulness practice, allowing individuals to notice when their mind wanders without self-criticism, which helps in retraining the brain to focus better.

Highlights

Overthinking and worrying are difficult to stop because they are deeply ingrained responses to perceived danger.

Four cognitive skills discussed previously are challenging negative thoughts, cognitive defusion, dropping the struggle with anxiety about anxiety, and scheduled worry.

The most effective way to decrease anxiety is to stop the constant perception of danger that triggers the anxiety response.

Mindfulness practice is a powerful tool to control attention and decrease anxiety, but it is often misunderstood.

Mindfulness is hard for many, including the speaker, but its effectiveness makes it a necessary skill to try.

Nick Wignall, an expert in anxiety, explains the difficulty of stopping worry due to thought suppression and the White Bear Experiment.

The more we resist thoughts, the more our brain presents them, making chronic worry hard to overcome.

We cannot control our thoughts, but we can control our attention and what we choose to focus on.

Worry can create a cycle of rumination that makes it difficult to break free from negative thought patterns.

Mindfulness is not about avoiding feelings but about training the brain to shift attention away from unhelpful thoughts.

Mindfulness should be practiced as an exercise to strengthen the ability to control attention, not just as a coping strategy.

The basics of mindfulness practice involve focusing on the sensation of breathing and gently refocusing when distracted.

Mindfulness training can change the structure of the brain, improving the ability to focus and reducing anxiety.

Starting mindfulness practice should begin with short sessions and gradually increase to longer durations for better results.

The goal of mindfulness is not to feel relaxed but to exercise the brain's ability to focus and redirect attention.

Common difficulties with mindfulness include self-judgment and expecting immediate relaxation; gentleness and patience are key.

Mindfulness can lead to a kinder relationship with oneself and improved self-compassion.

Transcripts

[Music]

Okay. So you want to stop overthinking, or you  want to stop worrying so much. You really want to  

stop being anxious all the time, but when someone  tells you, "Stop worrying," it's super annoying  

because if you could just turn it off, you would.  It's just not that easy. Now, in the last four  

videos we've talked about four cognitive skills  that can help with anxiety. One is challenging  

your automatic negative thoughts. The second one  is cognitive defusion. The third is dropping the  

struggle with anxiety about anxiety. And the  fourth one is scheduled worry. And hopefully  

you're using these skills, um like the scheduled  worry practice. And if you're like me, this  

practice has decreased your worrying drastically.  But how do we manage overthinking and worrying  

throughout the day? How do we get good at defusing  from our thoughts or shifting our attention from  

anxiety about anxiety to the stuff we care about  in the present moment? The single most effective  

way to de decrease anxiety is to stop worrying  and to stop bringing to mind the perception of  

danger all the time. It's the perception of danger  that triggers that anxiety response over and over  

again throughout the day. And the single most  effective way to learn to control your attention  

is through mindfulness practice. But most people  don't understand how mindfulness really works.  

They misunderstand how to use it. So in this  video you're going to learn a super practical,  

straightforward way to use mindfulness to retrain  your brain to be less anxious and to get back to  

living the life you value. And just, you know,  mindfulness is super hard for me personally. It  

is not my favorite skill. It's just so effective  that you've got to try it. So in this video you'll  

learn how to do it even if it's really hard  for you too. Okay. So we're going to learn  

how to actually use mindfulness. But I'm going  to be honest with you; I'm kind of a novice at  

mindfulness. I've used it on and off for a decade.  But I really wanted to bring in an expert for this  

video, so I've invited Nick Wignall here to really  teach us how to do mindfulness the right way. Nick  

Wignall is an expert in anxiety. He's treated  hundreds of people with generalized anxiety  

disorder, and he's an excellent teacher, and also  my friend. So hey, Nick. Thank you for joining us  

today. You bet. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm  so I'm so grateful that you're um here to teach  

us and um bring all your wisdom. So um talk to  us about why is it so hard to stop worrying? Oh,  

man. Um yeah, worry is really tough because  there's a lot of reasons, like there's all  

sorts of causes of worry and situations that that  that make worry difficult. But I think one of the  

biggest things that is very counterintuitive but  that is key for overcoming um chronic worry is,  

there's there's a a concept called thought  suppression in the kind of research on psychology.  

There's this famous psychologist, Daniel Wagner  was his name, um and he did this famous experiment  

that's called The White Bear Experiment. And what  he did was he had two groups of people, and he  

showed them both a picture of a white white bear.  One group he said, "Whatever you do for the next  

20 minutes or whatever, do not think about a white  bear." And the other group he didn't say anything.  

And then he, basically at the, he he measured  how often did people in both groups think about  

the white bear. Guess what? The people who tried  really hard not to think about the white bear,  

their minds were constantly bombarding them with  images and thoughts and white bears all over the  

place. So there's this very counterintuitive thing  with a lot of thoughts where the more you resist  

them, the more your brain throws them at you.  So I think one of the reasons why we have such  

a hard time not worrying so much is because we,  understandably, we resist worry so much. We try so  

hard to stop worry or to escape from it or to get  rid of it. And counterintuitively, what that tells  

our brain is, "Oh, yikes, this thing is really  bad, so we're going to be more attentive to it,  

and we're going to keep reminding you of it,"  because it thinks worry is dangerous. So I think  

fundamentally, like on a mechanics level, that's  a big part of why chronic worry especially is so  

tricky to deal with. Yeah, like our brain, it's so  paradoxical. Like we wish or we've been told even,  

"Oh, you can control your thoughts. You can  control your brain." We can influence our brain  

to a massive degree, but the minute we try and  tell it like, "Okay, you can't think about this,  

or this is, it's threatening to think about  worrying, like it'll harm you if you think about  

worrying," all of a sudden your brain's like,  "We're going to pay a ton of attention to that."  

Absolutely. And it's good to remember, to a large  extent you cannot actually control your thoughts.  

You can control your attention, what you choose  to focus on or not. That doesn't mean it's easy,  

right? It's, sometimes it's hard. And we'll get  into that more. But I think that distinction  

is really, really important, that - Yeah, I  think that's so important because even, you  

think about someone who's depressed, and they're  like having a bad day, and they start thinking  

all these negative thoughts, and they're like,  "Oh my gosh, I shouldn't be thinking this. I'm  

so bad for thinking this. What's the matter with  me? Why am I thinking this? And all of a sudden  

they're like trapped in this like rumination  cycle, basically, that makes things worse. So,  

yeah. Yeah, and it's the same with worry,  right? We get trapped in these cycles. I  

like to tell people that what's really helpful  to me is, your thoughts are going to talk to you  

all the time. You don't have to talk back. You  don't have to get into a conversation with your  

thoughts. You can if you want, if it's helpful,  right? Yeah. But if a worry pops into your head,  

it's so easy to just automatically assume, okay,  I should keep talking to this and elaborating on  

this. And and while that can often be tough not to  do, it absolutely is possible to set boundaries on  

that that chatting with our unhelpful thoughts  and decide no, it's there, it's talking to me,  

but I'm choosing not to talk back. Yeah. Awesome.  So how can we train our brain to be able to choose  

what we put attention on? Well, the first thing, I  love you bringing up, bring up that term, you use  

that word "train." How do we train our brain?  Because the way to think about this really is,  

it's about training. It's about exercise. Just  like you would train a dog not to pee in your  

house, right? You potty train a dog. Or just  like like you would train kids to learn how  

to play piano, right? Learning how to control  your attention and not get caught up in worry,  

it's a training exercise. Um so the the basics is  when you have that distracting thought, whatever  

it is - in our case we're talking about a worry -  it's about acknowledging, "Hey, there's a worry,"  

right? "A thought, and my brain is talking at me,"  but having the presence of mind to say, "That's  

happening, but I don't actually want to do that.  I don't want to continue elaborating on that worry  

or having a conversation with that worry, and I'm  going to practice moving my attention." Remember,  

attention is like a spotlight. Think about like  old movies in prisons, right, where there's a big  

spotlight on the - Yeah - prisoner, you know,  like up on the wall. That's your attention,  

and you can shift it. Now, it's hard. Your brain  thinks something's wrong, so it's going to tend  

to kind of pull you back to the worry. But with  practice you can get better. Like a muscle, you  

can get stronger at pulling it away from a worry  and putting it onto something more productive or  

helpful. Okay. And and so the way to think about  it, though, is that's it's a muscle, and like all  

muscles, the way you get stronger is you exercise  them regularly. So how do you do - what is that  

exercise? There's a lot of ways to do it. A really  - arguably the most effective way to do it is what  

I call mindfulness training. Now, mindfulness,  big term, right? Super big term. Yeah. Now,  

we we just touched on mindfulness for a second.  We're going to come back to it. You're going to  

teach us how to do it. But um what do you think  people get wrong about mindfulness? Because this  

is like probably the buzziest word in psychology  of the last decade. Oh my gosh. Other than

narcissism. Okay. So here's the thing. What  you get wrong about mindfulness, the big one,  

is, what they ultimately want is to worry  less and feel less anxious or less stressed,  

but they think about mindfulness as a coping  strategy, this thing you do - okay, I'm super  

stressed and anxious. I'm going to like open up  my tool belt of coping strategies, and I'm going  

to do mindfulness real quick and then hopefully  that'll make me feel less anxious. Yeah. They use  

it like a Band-Aid or a way to avoid a feeling  and replace it with a different feeling. Yeah.  

100%. And while it's so understandable, because  when you're feeling really anxious, it's awful,  

right? You really, you just don't want to feel  anxious anymore. The problem is when you try to,  

when you avoid something, including your  anxiety or worry, or try to get rid of it,  

you might get some temporary relief - this is  why people keep using coping skills, is because  

they're they're addicting, frankly. They give you  temporary relief. But long-term you're training  

your brain to think that worry and anxiety are  bad, which means they're going to show up more,  

like those white bears, right? They're going  to keep showing up even more intensely and  

frequently. So I believe when it comes to  how can mindfulness be useful for anxiety,  

what people get wrong is they think about it  as a coping skill. What they should be doing  

is thinking about it as an exercise, something you  do when you're not anxious or worried so that when  

anxiety and worry pop up you are stronger and  better able to deal with them in a helpful way  

so that you don't end up super anxious and worried  in the first place. Yeah. So what we're doing is  

training our brain to be better at shifting its  attention, and that - they've shown that that can  

literally change the structure of people's brains.  So, I I mean, I think it's a little bit annoying,  

but sometimes people talk about like your muscles  in your brain, right? Like they imagine your brain  

like doing weightlifting because what's happening  is when you practice or when you exercise this,  

it's it's literally shifting what your brain  is focusing its energy and attention on,  

and sometimes in a physical way. Like they can  they can see this in in brain scans, people who  

are really good at mindfulness. Totally. Yeah. So  so how do we practice it? Like what is the basic  

mindfulness practice, the exercise that you  would recommend people try when they want to  

train their brain to be better at choosing where  they put their attention? Totally. So I'll give  

you my little uh formula. There's a very simple  approach to mindfulness for attention training,  

for building this muscle that allows you to take  control of your intention instead of letting it be  

controlled by your worry and anxiety. And so here  here's what it is. It's so simple. You sit down,  

you relax, you close your eyes (if you're  comfortable with it; you don't have to),  

and you focus on the sensation of breathing.  You're not deep breathing, you're not doing  

diaphragmatic breathing, you're not doing anything  special. You're literally just sitting there and  

you're focusing on how does it feel to breathe?  Not, you're not thinking about breathing - "Am I  

doing it right? Am I doing deep bre" - you're just  like, "Oh, like hmm, that's interesting. Like the  

bre, air feels cool when it's coming in through my  nose, and it feels a little warm when it's coming  

out of my mouth." It's a very descriptive  exercise. You're just noticing or sort of  

describing what breathing feels like. That's it.  Yeah. Now, inevitably, what's going to happen is  

you're going to get distracted, and that's okay.  You're going to end up thinking about the bananas  

you forgot to get at the grocery store or some  terrible thing in politics that's happening or  

whatever it is. Right? Or, really commonly, am I  doing this right? You're going to start thinking  

about the practice, right? Like, "Oh my God, I'm  so distracted. I'm not - " So the first thing is,  

that's totally normal. When you get distracted you  go, "Oh, I'm distracted. That's fine. I'm going  

to refocus my attention back on my my breath, on  what it feels like to breathe." Yeah. And you're  

going to do that, and you're going to notice  how you're breathing. And then inevitably,  

literally two seconds later you're going to get  distracted by something else, and you're go, "Oh,  

I'm distracted again." Yeah. But you're going to  try. You're going to be as non-judgmental with  

yourself as possible, and and just say, "Huh."  Like, "All right, I got distracted again. That's  

okay. And actually, it's a good thing because  it allows me to practice the essential skill  

that I need to get better at controlling my  attention." Which is, number one, noticing,  

being aware of when you're getting distracted,  right? So in terms of anxiety it's like, oh, like,  

anxiety has hijacked with my worry. I'm being  controlled by my worries. I don't want to do that.  

I want to be focusing on my kids that I'm playing  with right now or the conversation I'm having with  

my spouse or whatever it is, right? Yeah. Yeah.  So notice, mindfulness, when you get distracted,  

it it teaches you to more quickly notice when  you're distracted, and then it gives you the  

opportunity - it's an opportunity; it's not bad  that you're distracted. The distraction gives you  

the opportunity to practice shifting your focus  back onto something you care about instead of  

letting it be controlled by something else. So  this is like the mind-blowing thing, you have  

to get distracted. This would not be a helpful  exercise if you didn't get distracted. People  

get so down on themselves for like, "Oh, I got so  distracted. It was a bad session." No. Nonsense.  

It's a really good session. That's like saying,  like, "The the weights were really heavy when I  

was working out. It was a bad session." They're  supposed to be heavy. Like you can be proud of  

like being a little sore. Like you're like, "Oh,  I'm so sore cuz I just really lost attention a lot  

this exercise." Like. So that's that's it. That's  the whole thing. You pay attention to your breath,  

you get distracted, you notice that you're  distracted, you refocus back on your breath.  

That's it. And you do everything non-judgmentally.  You're not being critical with yourself. You're  

not thinking about why this is happening or  what you should be doing differently or - it's  

just very, very simple. It's it's like exercise,  and you do it. And we can talk a little bit more  

about logistics for how long do you do it and when  you do it and all that kind of stuff, but I just  

want to really get across the idea that it does  not have to be and really should not be any more  

complicated than that. That's it. Love it. I love  it. I love it. And mindfulness training has been  

shown to be very effective at treating anxiety and  depression, right? I have found this really simple  

approach to mindfulness the most effective for  that specific goal. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to grab  

my poster just to illustrate what we're doing, and  then we're going to come back and you're going to  

explain people, explain to people like what, how  to implement this in their daily life. So one sec.

Great. Look, Nick, I got a poster made. Whoa.  Look at it. Props, you got props. I'm so proud of  

myself. I used Staples, you know. So when people  are in like their default nervous system mode,  

they're in a state of safety, they experience  a stimulus, which they interpret as dangerous,  

like, oh, someone jumps out at you from a tr -  when you're on a trail, and your brain's like,  

"Oh my gosh, it could be a bear," and that's  what triggers the anxiety response. But the  

reason people have anxiety disorders is, right  here, all day long they're having these worries  

pop into their brain. They're like, "Oh my  gosh, what if I fail that test?" "Oh my gosh,  

what if - I have that email I have to respond  to." "I don't do good at work," or whatever  

it is. We - "I need to do this, and I need to  do that." and those worries all day long are  

triggering this fight/flight/freeze response.  So when people are engaging in mindfulness,  

they're bringing their attention to noticing those  worries and maybe redirecting their attention,  

or they're noticing those worries and redirecting  their attention to like, hmm, other things around  

them or thoughts, like, "Oh, everything's going to  be okay." And that interrupts this anxiety cycle  

because, all of a sudden, instead of believing  something's dangerous, you're like, "Actually,  

I'm safe right now, here in the present moment.  I'm safe enough." And you go from stimulus back  

into the parasympathetic response. That's how I  think of this, at least. So. Yeah. Totally. I,  

so I would say two things on that. Yeah. This  this ability to to let go of and shift your  

attention off of something unhelpful, like worry,  and onto something productive or or helpful, like,  

you know, the conversation you're in or the work  you have to do, whatever it is - Yeah - it's it's  

helpful on two levels. A, in the moment,  you're going to worry less, and therefore  

you're going to generate less anxiety, right? So  it's actually really, it's hard, but it's helpful  

just literally in the moment. You will you will be  less anxious. Right. It's also helpful long term,  

though, because what it does is it it teaches your  brain. When you stop getting obsessed with those  

worries every time a worry comes - each time  you you have a conversation with your worry,  

you're giving it attention and you're reinforcing  your brain's tendency to throw those worries at  

you. If you put boundaries on them and you say,  "Okay, I hear you talking to me, but actually I'm  

not going to reinforce that with attention.  I'm going to go on my way and do something  

else," over time you teach your brain to throw  fewer worries at you, which it getting - which  

helps get you out of that cycle long term. And  that's the real magic of learning to control your  

attention and getting stronger at that ability,  which mindfulness is one way um to do. Yeah. And  

I I think - I I love that. Okay. So if someone  wants to practice mindfulness, how do they do  

it? Okay. So I have another hot take on this.  Most people are way too slow and gradual when  

they work into mindfulness. It's tempting to think  with anything difficult - and a lot of people have  

a really hard time with mindfulness - I'm one of  them - in part because they think it, they think,  

"I shouldn't get distracted" or "It should be  easy. It should be relaxing." Yeah. Nonsense.  

It's a workout. It should be hard. Getting  distracted helps you build that muscle. We  

covered that already. The other mistake, though,  I see is that, people, you're going to get more  

benefit just - so imagine this: you decide, okay,  I'm going to start lifting weights because I want  

to get stronger, right? But you only lift weights  for five minutes a day. Now, that's nice, right?  

And I'm sure there's some benefit. Better than  nothing. Better than nothing. Absolutely. Right?  

But but here's the thing. For, to stay motivated,  to really be able to lift weights significantly,  

progress is the most powerful motivator. You got  to feel like you're making progress. You got to  

feel like you're getting stronger. Yeah. You got  to look at your biceps and go like, actually,  

hey, they're a little bigger, right? Yeah. Like  I'm looking, I'm looking a little better. I'm  

lifting stronger. That, long term - Yeah - that  progress is is what's going to motivate you to  

keep going and make this a really consistent and  effective practice. So what happens is if you go  

too slow and too small for too long, you lo, you  lose motivation, and you just give up because  

you're not getting anything out of it. Mm. So  mindfulness is the same way. It doesn't mean you  

can't start small. You should start small, right?  So this exercise I described, do it - set a timer  

on your phone for five minutes - two, do it for  two minutes, right? Do that for a day or two. But  

pretty quickly jump up to 10 minutes for another  day or two, okay? Then relatively quickly go to  

20 and 30 minutes, because you will get so much  more out of this if you're in the 20 to 30 minute  

zone than if you're in the five minutes zone. And  I know that sounds hard. Like Emma, it looks like  

you're having a panic attack over there. Yeah.  That sounds really hard for me, and I'm going  

to try it. And I'm gonna like film the results. So  yes, but like the thought of sitting still for 20  

minutes for me is like, oh my gosh, that sounds so  hard. Yeah. And of course, everyone's different.  

Take this with it. But what I want to get across  is this general principle that if you want to  

stick with this long term and see the benefit  of it - Yeah - you have to see results from it,  

and you're you're just not going to see results  if you're only doing 5 minutes a day. Like it  

might be nice, and you might get some benefits  from it, but if you want to put a serious dent  

in your anxiety by really learning how to control  your attention, like 5 minutes a day is not going  

to cut it. I'm just going to be straight up. All  right. It's not going to do it. Okay. It's got to  

be more than that. So is it 30 minutes? I don't  know. Maybe it's maybe it's 15 or 20 minutes. But  

the point is it's got to be a significant thing  if you want those muscles to get stronger. But  

the good thing is, after the initial hump it's  not like you have to grin and bear it the whole  

time it. You will enjoy it more. Huh. You will  feel yourself getting stronger. Okay. And it so  

it will become a more enjoyable thing. It's like  if anyone out there is a runner - I I had, there,  

this, I - we have this family friend who was a  triathlete. And I I never used to like to run.  

And she used to see, she always said ,"How, well,  how far do you run?" I said, "I don't know. Like  

a mile." She was like, "Nobody likes running the  first mile. Like it's awful. Your body's like, 'I  

don't want to do this,' you know. You always feel  bad. You never feel good until you start getting  

to higher mileage, like three, four, five miles,  and your body accepts, 'Hey, this is something  

new,' and you kick into a different gear."  Mindfulness training is exactly the same way.  

Everybody feels crappy the first five minutes,  which is why you need to push through and quickly  

get to a place where you're doing 20-, 30-minute  sessions. Okay. So I I I love this. And I know a  

lot of people really really benefit from this. And  I'm going to try it. And if I come back - because  

I'm gonna I'm going to record my progress on this  - if I come back and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I  

enjoyed a 20-minute, like a 20-minute mindfulness  session," I'm gonna I'm gonna like buy you lunch  

to anywhere you want to go. Fanciest place you  want to go. Arizona. All right. Remember, though,  

it's all about expectations. Okay. Right. This  is not a coping strategy to feel relaxed. Yeah.  

The goal isn't to feel - if you went out of,  if you went out of a workout and felt relaxed,  

you'd actually be disappointed. You'd think,  "I probably didn't get a very good workout in,"  

right? Yeah. Yeah. You want to feel like, "I'm  sweaty. I'm kind of nasty. I'm stinky. I'm like,  

I'm sore." Yeah. Yes. A good workout. And I can  totally get that when it comes to like physical  

exercise. Like I really enjoy exercise, and I love  a good, hard exercise. So we'll go see if I can do  

do this. I'm I'm gonna do it, Nick. I'm gonna  give it, I'm gonna give it my best. I believe  

you, Emma. I believe you. So so do that, so a  couple minute, start with two or five minutes,  

do that for a couple days, up to 10 minutes couple  days, and then get to 20 or 30 within a week. Yep.  

Exactly. And do do you have to sit cross-legged  and hold your fingers like this and say,  

"Ohm"? [Laughter] It doesn't matter. I mean,  you can if you want. No. Doesn't matter. I mean,  

if you're doing this late at night, you don't want  to be laying on your bed because you're just going  

to fall asleep, right? But whatever. The, these  are the kind of details that don't ultimately  

matter for this type of mindfulness. Okay. Just  find someplace comfortable - Okay - and get to it.  

Great. Okay. And the goal of this is to exercise,  not to just feel good. Exactly. It's an exercise,  

not a coping strategy. Great. Okay. Awesome. Do  you come across any other like common worries  

or difficulties people have when they start  mindfulness? Hmm. Gosh. The big one is just - it's  

it's wild to me how judgmental people are of  themselves with mindfulness. I don't know where  

this comes from. But the thing to really keep in  mind is that you just really want to be gentle  

with yourself. Like think about how you are with  like a best friend or, you know, with your kids  

or like - There's no reason you shouldn't treat  yourself trying something new and difficult with  

the same level of gentleness that you would  you would approach, you know, someone else,  

a good friend or someone who was trying something  to - You' be like, "Dude, that's awesome. That's  

super hard. I know it sucks, like parts of  it suck, but like good for you. Like that's  

so great." Like why can't you extend the same  attitude to yourself? You can. You're probably not  

in the habit of doing it, but you absolutely can.  And I think that's probably another ultimately  

maybe even more important benefit that you can get  out of mindfulness training -Yeah - is that it it  

teaches you to be kinder um and to have a better  relationship with yourself, which is just like,  

the, that's everything. That's like the core  of everything. Yeah. So be gentle. I think  

gentleness is like the key word when it comes to  mindfulness training. Okay. So so we're going to  

get out there, go to - start with five minutes  a day, let yourself notice your breathing,  

not try to change it, not try to think about  breathing, practice noticing, and you're going to  

lose track of what you're -you're going to, your  mind is going to wander. That's normal, natural,  

and to be expected. Gently bring it back with  love and compassion. Bring your attention back to  

your breath, and then do that over and over again  until your timer goes off. That's the main idea,  

right? That's it. Okay. And remember, look, this  is not the only way to lower your anxiety. I've  

just found that this is a particularly effective  way, especially if you struggle with getting lost  

in conversation with your worries. If if if  if you can do this, this is such an effective,  

concentrated dose of working through chronic worry  and anxiety. It's just so effective, so it's at  

least worth giving it a really good shot, I think.  Yeah. I love it. I love love it. Well, I'm going  

to try it, and I'm going to come back and tell  y'all how it went. I'm really looking forward to  

my big steak lunch that you're going to buy me.  Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited. It's going  

to be, it's going to be awesome. So thank you  again, so much, Nick. Really appreciate you taking  

the time to be here today. Of course. Thanks for  having me on. I always love chatting with you,  

Emma. Yeah. And for all of you out there, you  can find more of his teaching. You can sign up  

for his newsletter and see some of his articles  at his website, nickwignall.com. Cool. Well,  

thank you. Really appreciate it. Have a good  one. Of course. See you. Okay. All right.

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