The secret to more sleep - do less. With the UK No.1 Sleep Expert Stephanie Romiszewski

Summary

In this episode of the Patient Paradox podcast, sleep expert Stephanie discusses the nuances of sleep disorders, distinguishing between chronic insomnia and occasional sleep issues. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining a consistent sleep-wake cycle and minimizing behaviors that can perpetuate sleep problems. Stephanie also shares insights from her work at Re:Sleep, a digital health company focusing on evidence-based strategies to improve sleep health, and addresses common misconceptions about sleep, including the impact of technology and the role of personalized sleep solutions.

Takeaways

• 📝 The importance of sleep hygiene and language around sleep was highlighted, emphasizing the impact of the previous conversation with Stephanie on personal sleep habits and business ethos.
• 🔄 The podcast addressed the difference between short-term insomnia and long-term sleep issues, noting that behaviors and cognitive biases can perpetuate sleep problems over time.
• 🌊 Stephanie used the analogy of sleep being like a river, flowing and changing due to various life variables, to normalize sleep problems and reduce associated stress.
• 🛌 The conversation touched on the idea that worrying about sleep can exacerbate sleep issues, as anxiety and stress can override physiological sleep drives like melatonin production.
• ⏰ Stephanie advised anchoring wake-up time as a key strategy for improving sleep, as it helps reinforce the body's internal clock and sleep-wake cycle.
• 💡 Light exposure after waking up and avoiding it before bedtime was recommended to reinforce the body's natural rhythm and support the wake-up anchor.
• 🚫 The podcast warned against changing sleep behaviors as a coping mechanism during stress, such as going to bed early or spending more time in bed, which can disrupt the sleep-wake cycle.
• 🤝 Stephanie shared insights about her digital health company, re sleep, which focuses on treating chronic insomnia through evidence-based protocols like cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I).
• 🌐 The discussion highlighted the multidisciplinary approach of re sleep, which includes live events, group experts, and sleep coaches to provide consistent support and personalized care.
• 🧘‍♀️ The role of personalized medicine in sleep health was underscored, with Stephanie noting the need for individualized solutions rather than a one-size-fits-all approach.
• 🚫 Stephanie expressed concerns about the lack of sleep education among healthcare professionals and the potential negative impacts of this knowledge gap on patient care.

Q & A

What is the main focus of the 'Patient, Paradox' podcast?

The 'Patient, Paradox' podcast focuses on sleep and related topics, including sleep hygiene and the science behind sleep, aiming to educate listeners on how to approach language around sleep and improve their understanding of sleep issues.

Why was the episode with Stephanie re-recorded?

The episode with Stephanie had to be re-recorded due to technical difficulties that occurred during the initial recording session.

What is the difference between an insomniac and someone with occasional sleep issues?

An insomniac typically experiences long-term, chronic sleep problems, while someone with occasional sleep issues has disrupted sleep that is temporary and often related to a specific stressful period or event.

What is insomnia in medical terms?

Insomnia, from Latin 'no sleep', refers to very broken and interrupted sleep that is unexpected and affects day-to-day functioning.

How does anxiety and stress affect sleep?

Anxiety and stress can increase cortisol levels and reduce physiological responses like melatonin production, which can override the body's natural sleep drive and disrupt the sleep cycle.

What advice does Stephanie give to someone struggling with sleep?

Stephanie advises not to worry about sleep, to anchor a consistent wake-up time, and to ensure light exposure after waking up and avoid it before bedtime to reinforce the body's internal clock.

What is the purpose of the digital health company 'Re:sleep'?

Re:sleep is a digital health company that retrains people to sleep healthily, focusing on those with chronic insomnia or long-term sleep problems, using evidence-based protocols like cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I).

How does Re:sleep support its clients?

Re:sleep offers a multidisciplinary approach with support from experts, group experts who have experienced insomnia, and trained sleep coaches, providing live events, human interaction, and personalized guidance.

Why is it important to have a consistent wake-up time according to Stephanie?

A consistent wake-up time is crucial because it helps to anchor the body's internal clock, defining when one should feel wakefulness and sleepiness, and supporting a strong sleep drive throughout the night.

What is the role of light exposure in relation to sleep as discussed in the podcast?

Light exposure, especially after waking up, reinforces the anchoring of the wake-up time and helps to define the body's internal clock, promoting better sleep quality.

How does Stephanie define 'revenge bedtime procrastination'?

Revenge bedtime procrastination is the act of staying up late to use one's phone or engage in leisure activities as a form of self-compensation for the lack of personal time during the day, which can negatively impact sleep.

What is the significance of REM sleep and why is it often interrupted?

REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep is a stage of sleep where emotional and memory processing is believed to occur. It can be interrupted by various factors such as stress, stimulant consumption, or external disturbances, and is more sensitive as one gets older.

Can alcohol consumption affect sleep quality?

Yes, alcohol can affect sleep quality. Initially, it may induce a sedative effect, making one feel sleepy, but it can disrupt sleep later in the night, leading to more awakenings and less REM sleep, which can contribute to a hangover and reduced sleep quality.

What is the role of environment in sleep and does Re:sleep consider environmental factors in its program?

While environmental factors like room temperature, noise, and light can influence sleep, Re:sleep primarily focuses on behavior and light exposure related to the body's circadian rhythm rather than specific environmental modifications.

How does Stephanie view the use of sleep tracking devices and their impact on sleep perception?

Stephanie believes that while sleep tracking devices can provide data, the way people interpret and react to this data can be problematic. They may focus too much on achieving 'perfect sleep' and become anxious about normal sleep fluctuations, which can actually exacerbate sleep issues.

What does Stephanie suggest about the future of sleep technology and how it could be improved?

Stephanie suggests that future sleep technology should focus on providing insights into long-term sleep consistency rather than night-to-night variations, and it should avoid numerical representations that can induce anxiety, instead empowering people with a better understanding of their sleep patterns.

Why do some people believe that they need more sleep than others?

Some people believe they need more sleep due to various factors such as hormonal changes, stress levels, and lifestyle differences. However, it's important to recognize that individual sleep needs can vary significantly, and what feels right for one person may not be suitable for another.

What is the impact of caffeine consumption on sleep, and should it be a focus in sleep disorder treatment?

Caffeine can have a significant impact on sleep, especially when consumed close to bedtime, as it is a stimulant that can disrupt the sleep cycle. While it is an obvious factor to address in sleep disorder treatment, the focus should be more on behavioral changes rather than specific dietary fixes.

What is the role of nutrition in sleep, and does Re:sleep consider nutritional fixes for sleep issues?

Nutrition can play a role in sleep quality, particularly the timing of meals and potential deficiencies that might affect sleep. However, Re:sleep primarily focuses on behavioral changes and does not currently offer nutritional fixes as part of its program.

Why do people in certain professions seem to suffer from sleep disorders more than others?

There is no clear pattern indicating that people in specific professions suffer more from sleep disorders. Sleep issues can affect anyone regardless of their profession, and various factors such as stress, routine, and individual differences contribute to the prevalence of sleep disorders.

What is the relationship between perceived sleep quality and actual sleep health?

Perceived sleep quality does not always align with actual sleep health. People may feel they have poor sleep due to normal sleep fluctuations or arousals, which may not necessarily indicate a sleep disorder. It's important to understand that some level of sleep disruption is normal and not always a cause for concern.

How does Stephanie view the current state of medical information dissemination and its impact on health?

Stephanie believes that the current state of medical information dissemination is lacking, with people not being taught critical thinking skills to properly evaluate the information they receive. This can lead to misunderstandings and unhealthy behaviors, contributing to the paradox of increasing sickness despite medical advancements.

Outlines

00:00

🎙️ Podcast Introduction and Sleep Hygiene Discussion

The podcast begins with an introduction to Stephanie, a guest who has previously appeared due to technical issues that necessitated a re-recording. The hosts express gratitude for her return and delve into a discussion about sleep hygiene, acknowledging their shared interest in the topic. They reflect on the insights gained from Stephanie's previous episode, particularly regarding sleep language and scientific understanding. The conversation aims to differentiate between chronic insomnia and occasional sleep issues, with Stephanie emphasizing the normalization of sleep problems and the importance of maintaining a consistent sleep-wake cycle despite life's variables.

05:01

🌙 Understanding Insomnia and Sleep Behaviors

This paragraph delves into the distinction between short-term and chronic insomnia, highlighting the importance of recognizing sleep problems as normal rather than suffering in silence. Stephanie explains that while triggers for sleep issues are common, it's the perpetuating factors, often our own behaviors, that turn short-term insomnia into a long-term issue. She discusses the impact of anxiety and stress on sleep patterns, noting how cognitive biases and changes in behavior can disrupt the natural sleep cycle and physiological processes, such as the production of cortisol and melatonin.

10:02

⏰ Advice on Sleep Patterns and Behavioral Changes

The conversation shifts to advice on maintaining healthy sleep patterns, with a focus on not worrying about sleep and keeping consistent wake-up times regardless of sleep quality. Stephanie stresses the importance of anchoring wake-up times to align with the body's internal clock and the benefits of light exposure post-waking to reinforce this cycle. She also cautions against changing behaviors as a coping mechanism during stressful times, which can inadvertently exacerbate sleep issues.

15:05

🛌 The Work of Re Sleep and Chronic Insomnia Management

Stephanie introduces Re Sleep, a digital health company focused on retraining chronic insomniacs to sleep healthily. She explains that the company works with individuals suffering from long-term sleep issues, not just insomnia, and discusses the challenges faced by this demographic. Re Sleep employs evidence-based protocols, specifically cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I), adapted to suit the needs of their clients, emphasizing the importance of consistency and patience in addressing sleep disorders.

20:07

🧠 Psychological and Physiological Aspects of Insomnia Treatment

This paragraph explores the multifaceted approach Re Sleep takes to address insomnia, considering both psychological and physiological aspects. Stephanie discusses the need for behavioral changes, attitude adjustments, and the acceptance of new sleep patterns to prevent future issues. She also touches on the importance of a multidisciplinary team, including sleep coaches and peer support, to provide comprehensive and personalized care.

25:08

🚑 The State of Sleep Education and Healthcare System's Role

Stephanie criticizes the lack of sleep education in medical schools and the resulting inadequate care patients receive for sleep issues. She discusses the pressure on doctors to prescribe medication due to a lack of knowledge about sleep disorders and the potential negative impacts of this approach. Stephanie also addresses the feelings of isolation experienced by patients and the need for a more personalized and understanding healthcare system when it comes to sleep issues.

30:08

📱 The Impact of Technology and Sleep Associations

In this paragraph, the discussion turns to the impact of technology, particularly the use of phones before bed, and how it affects sleep quality. Stephanie explains that the brain associates the use of phones with daytime activity, which can disrupt the natural sleep cycle. She also touches on the concept of 'revenge bedtime procrastination' and the idea of replacing phone use with other activities, such as reading, to improve sleep.

35:10

🌗 Dreams and Sleep Quality Misconceptions

The conversation explores the relationship between vivid dreams, REM sleep, and sleep quality. Stephanie clarifies that everyone dreams and that waking up during a REM cycle can lead to remembering dreams, which might be mistaken for poor sleep. She also discusses the impact of stress and stimulants on sleep interruptions and the importance of understanding that sleep patterns naturally change over time.

40:11

🛌 Environmental Factors and Sleep Aids

This paragraph examines the role of environmental factors in sleep, such as white noise machines, fans, and sleep masks. Stephanie suggests that while these aids can be comforting, they are less influential than an individual's behavior and sleep drive. She warns against becoming obsessive with sleep rituals and emphasizes the importance of a balanced approach to sleep hygiene.

45:11

🧪 The Role of Functional Testing in Sleep Management

Stephanie discusses the potential role of functional testing in understanding sleep issues, particularly for women whose hormonal changes can affect sleep. While Re Sleep does not currently use functional testing, she acknowledges the value of personalized medicine and the possibility of incorporating such testing in the future to better understand and address individual sleep needs.

50:11

💑 Sleeping with a Partner and Individual Sleep Needs

The final paragraph explores whether sleeping with a partner is beneficial and the impact of shared beds on sleep quality. Stephanie notes that individuals may have different circadian rhythms and that sleeping alone might be more conducive to restful sleep. She also mentions research suggesting that couples who sleep separately may have better relationships and emphasizes the importance of personal beliefs and expectations in sleep habits.

📊 Sleep Tracking and Technology's Future in Sleep Health

In this closing paragraph, Stephanie discusses the pros and cons of sleep tracking and the potential future of technology in sleep health. She notes that while sleep trackers can provide valuable data, the interpretation of this data can lead to anxiety and misconceptions about sleep needs. Stephanie advocates for a more holistic and consistent approach to tracking sleep and believes that technology can play a significant role in personalized sleep solutions.

🤔 The Paradox of Advanced Medicine and Increasing Illness

The podcast concludes with a reflection on why people are becoming sicker despite medical advancements. Stephanie suggests that the overload of information and the lack of critical thinking skills may contribute to this paradox. She emphasizes the need for better education and understanding of how to process and apply the vast amount of health information available, particularly in the context of sleep disorders.

Keywords

💡Sleep hygiene

Sleep hygiene refers to the practices and habits that are conducive to sleeping well on a regular basis. In the video, it is mentioned as an area of personal interest for the hosts and a topic that was explored in a previous conversation with Stephanie, indicating its importance in understanding and improving sleep quality.

💡Insomnia

Insomnia is a sleep disorder characterized by difficulty in falling asleep, staying asleep, or both, and is often associated with daytime fatigue, anxiety, and low mood. The script discusses the difference between short-term and long-term insomnia, and the importance of addressing behavioral factors to prevent the escalation of occasional sleep issues into chronic insomnia.

💡Cognitive biases

Cognitive biases are systematic errors in thinking that occur when people process information in a way that is biased towards certain preconceptions. In the context of sleep, the script mentions how cognitive biases can lead to unhelpful behaviors, such as spending more time in bed when not sleeping well, which can exacerbate sleep problems.

💡Cortisol

Cortisol is a hormone that plays a key role in the body's response to stress and in maintaining various bodily functions. The script explains how anxiety and stress can increase cortisol levels, which can interfere with the body's natural sleep-wake cycle and the production of sleep-inducing chemicals like melatonin.

💡Melatonin

Melatonin is a hormone that helps regulate the sleep-wake cycle. It is naturally produced by the body and can be influenced by light exposure. The script notes that stress can reduce melatonin levels, which can disrupt the ability to fall asleep.

💡Sleep drive

Sleep drive, also known as the sleep pressure, is the body's internal pressure or urge to sleep that builds up throughout the day and is released during sleep. The script discusses how anxiety and behavioral changes can override the sleep drive, leading to difficulty sleeping.

💡Circadian rhythm

The circadian rhythm is the body's internal clock that regulates the cycle of sleep and wakefulness. It is influenced by various factors, including light exposure. The script mentions how the circadian rhythm can affect sleep patterns and the importance of aligning behaviors with this natural cycle.

💡Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I)

CBT-I is a form of therapy that helps individuals change thoughts and behaviors that prevent them from sleeping well. The script discusses CBT-I as an evidence-based approach used by re:sleep to treat chronic insomnia by establishing new sleep patterns and addressing the perpetuating factors of sleep problems.

💡Sleep restriction therapy

Sleep restriction therapy is a component of CBT-I where the time spent in bed is reduced to more closely match the actual time spent sleeping, with the aim of increasing sleep efficiency. The script mentions how re:sleep modifies this approach to make it more sustainable and comfortable for individuals with chronic conditions.

💡Anxiety and sleep

Anxiety can have a significant impact on sleep quality, often leading to insomnia or exacerbating existing sleep problems. The script discusses the relationship between anxiety and sleep, noting that anxious thoughts can override physiological processes and disrupt the sleep-wake cycle.

💡Functional testing

Functional testing is a type of diagnostic test that assesses how the body's systems are functioning. While not directly related to sleep in the context of the script, it is mentioned as a potential area for future exploration in understanding how various bodily functions, including hormones, might affect sleep.

💡Nutrition and sleep

Nutrition can influence sleep quality, with certain foods and eating habits potentially affecting sleep patterns. The script mentions the timing of meals in relation to sleep, suggesting that eating too close to bedtime can disrupt sleep due to the body's need to metabolize food.

Highlights

The discussion emphasizes the importance of sleep and sleep hygiene, highlighting the hosts' personal interest and the impact of previous conversations on their perspectives.

The podcast addresses the difference between short-term insomnia and long-term sleep issues, explaining the transition from occasional sleep problems to chronic insomnia.

The guest, Stephanie, explains the meaning of insomnia, dispelling myths and discussing the impact of anxiety and stress on sleep patterns.

Behavioral changes due to sleep anxiety are identified as perpetuating factors that can worsen sleep issues, overriding natural sleep drives.

The advice is given to maintain a consistent sleep-wake cycle and avoid changes in routine as a strategy to prevent short-term sleep issues from becoming long-term.

The significance of anchoring a consistent wake-up time for aligning the body's internal clock and supporting healthy sleep patterns is discussed.

Light exposure after waking up and avoiding it before bedtime is recommended to reinforce the body's natural sleep-wake cycle.

Stephanie introduces re:sleep, a digital health company that retrains people to sleep healthily using evidence-based protocols.

The program at re:sleep focuses on cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I), aiming to change brain patterns contributing to sleep issues.

The importance of a multidisciplinary approach in addressing sleep disorders is highlighted, with various experts providing support.

Stephanie discusses the challenges of traditional healthcare in providing personalized care for sleep disorders and the advantages of technology in this area.

The podcast touches on the lack of sleep education in medical schools and the resulting inadequate care for patients with sleep issues.

The idea that women may need more sleep than men due to hormonal changes and higher mental load is explored.

The concept of 'revenge bedtime procrastination' is introduced, discussing the impact of phone usage before bed on sleep quality.

The relationship between vivid dreams, REM sleep, and sleep quality is examined, with insights on why we remember dreams and the implications for sleep health.

The effects of alcohol on sleep cycles and the potential for increased dream recall and disrupted sleep are discussed.

Environmental factors and their impact on sleep are considered, with advice on creating an optimal sleep environment.

The role of technology in sleep tracking and the potential future developments in personalized sleep technology are explored.

The podcast concludes with a reflection on the paradox of advancing medicine and increasing sickness, attributing it to information overload and a lack of critical thinking skills.

Transcripts

[Music]

Stephanie welcome back to the patient

Paradox podcast thank you for those that

don't know we recorded this episode

probably four or six weeks ago and there

was some technical difficulties and

we've had to re-record so we're very

grateful not to get your time once but

to get it twice and appreciate you

coming back on yeah and you're you're

such a busy bee obviously so we really

appreciate it but I was actually saying

to Fergus this morning I'm grateful that

we get to have another conversation with

you because well first of all like I

we're both like really into sleep and

sleep hygiene and things like that just

personally um but we learned so much

from the last episode with you even just

in terms of like how to approach

language around sleep and um and just

generally learned more about the science

of it and uh over the last couple of

weeks have been subconsciously like

looking at or even how we think about

sleep um and how we we communicated I

suppose in our in our other business

ethos as well um is important um so we'd

love to start I think straight go

straight in

and ask you Stephanie so like a lot of

the people that we see or speak to

daytoday within our business business

ethos um most of our customers are

actually struggling with their sleep

it's people who are you know

insomniacs um and have trouble I suppose

falling asleep or staying asleep um and

then we do also have customers who it's

more like occasional sleep issues like

they might be going through a stressful

period And they're they're

experiencing um trouble sleeping can you

define fine like you know what is the

fine line between the two between an

insomniac and someone who just has like

occasional sleep issues sure and thank

you for that lovely introduction I'm so

glad you guys have hopefully been

calming down about sleep and being very

positive I like that we definitely lost

we definitely lost some sleep after we

found out the episode we're back on

track we're back on

track

um so essentially what is the difference

between essentially what you're asking

is more what's the difference between it

being quite a long-term chronic problem

and just the occasional issue and would

we Define those things a little bit

differently well I definitely think it's

a good time to understand that we do

need to normalize sleep problems because

they are totally normal and none of us

are going to be able to avoid them so

that is something that we should 100%

understand our expectation should be

that sleep is like a river it's going to

e and flow and and there's nothing we

can do about that because there are too

many variables in our lives that are

going to affect it but does that mean

you have to suffer with a chronic sleep

issue no it doesn't and I would say the

only difference because you can get

short-term insomnia and long-term

insomnia what does insomnia even mean

well generally in Latin it literally

means no sleep but that's not really

what it is it's very broken um and

interrupted sleep that you're not

expecting that is affecting your day to

day and you can't avoid that in the

short term but absolutely what we do

tend to find is um most people think

that they have a particular trigger that

has started their sleep problem and that

would be true but the perpetuating

factors so the things that make it go

from shortterm to longterm are usually

our own behaviors because we start

worrying about the fact that we're not

sleeping so it's really interesting most

people aren't really focused on you know

what whatever is going on in their lives

like they're stressed they're more

worried about the fact that they can't

sleep and then they start changing all

their behaviors because we have a lot of

cognitive biases in sleep we think we

have some logic around I didn't sleep

well therefore I should spend more time

in bed for example that's one of the

worst things when you're not sleeping to

do and unfortunately the change of

mindset so getting more anxious and

stressed and that narrative around

worrying about sleep and what it means

and the change in your behavior is going

to move you away from your normal sleep

weake cycle and it's also going to move

you away from the right chemicals being

produced at the right times of day

because anxiety and stress have the

ability to increase your cortisol levels

and reduce things like that

physiological response to going to bed

like your melatonin levels for example

so they can override your sleep drive

your anxiety and the way that you think

has the ability to override your

physiological processes I think that's

really important to understand so I

guess what I'm trying to say is that

it's totally normal to have short-term

sleep problems I know sometimes they can

be really significant depending on what

you're going through but in order to

avoid them becoming long-term it's about

actually doing nothing focusing on just

getting through that stressful time um

and not moving away from your normal

sleep wake cycle not changing up your

behaviors and counseling activities not

going to the gym and you know lying in

excessive or trying to go to bed early

and you know anything else that you

might do as a coping strategy or as a

way to uh you know to preempt what might

happen tonight all those things need to

not be done so it's about avoidance of

these things rather than adding anything

in okay yeah that's so interesting

because I think as Amy said most of our

our customers we speak to are struggling

with their sleep we know there's a sleep

epidemic going on and I was always very

the one question I had that I was

interested to ask you was people are

hearing you know you should eat this you

should take this as a supplement you

know you should have this in your room

but if you were to meet someone on the

on the street and give them a you know a

30 second one minute piece of advice on

what they should do what should it be

and is it this is it this Behavior

avoidance is it as simple as that

changing your behavior so I guess I'd

give them two pieces of advice the first

one would be please don't worry your

sleep's always going to be there even if

it's not reaching your expect

expectations it's impossible to make

sleep go away which is a big fear for

most people and then the second thing

I'd say is there are two very key things

that you can do around your sleep the

first one is anchoring your wake up time

so trying to get up around about the

same time each day because your body and

a lot of the physiological processes are

run by an internal clock a 24-hour cycle

for some of your physiological processes

and when you get up in the morning

unlike any other behavioral timing like

even the time you go to bed is not

important compared to that getup time

because that's when your brain says Ah

she wants me to start her day therefore

I should be feeling wakefulness right

now and also it helps to Define when you

should be feeling sleepiness and the

ability to get through that whole night

with a nice strong sleep drive and then

as a caveat to that rule I would just

say that light exposure just after you

get up and avoiding light exposure

before you go to bed will only reinforce

that anchoring so that would be the

advice I would give and I would just

leave it there that's it if people just

did those key things everyone would be a

hell of a lot better I love that simple

free yeah I think that's what everyone

wants and it's so simple to stick in

your routine kind of trust trust what

you've been doing when you have been

sleeping well and try not to deviate too

much from it when things go arve for a

while um so in terms of the work you're

doing at re sleep which is your digital

health company that's as you say

retrains people to sleep healthily who

are the people you are working with in

re sleep and how are you going about

training them to to sleep better so

we're working with people that have a

chronic insomnia problem and some people

wouldn't even Define it as insomnia per

se they would just Define it as a very

chronic sleep problem these tend to be

people who have problems with actually

broken sleep and not being able to sleep

so the reason I say that even though it

might sound really obvious is that there

are people that have hypersomnolence

issues and there are a whole other set

of other Sleep Disorders so for example

sleep apnea makes people very

excessively sleepy during the day they

might still have a bit of broken sleep

at night but in general their

opportunity to sleep is great and they

are excessively sleepy during the day so

they are falling asleep it's not just

feeling fatigue they're falling asleep

so we're actually dealing with those set

of people that no matter how much they

try they can't get the sleep they expect

at nighttime so those are the people

we're working with and there are more

common it does affect certain

populations more than others but I have

to be honest we see all sorts of people

coming through to our program so

effectively it can be for anyone who

just has had a chronic sleep problem

that's been happening for over three

months that tends to be the point where

these behaviors and patterns become

incredibly ingrained and then what we're

doing is we're sticking to incredibly

evidence-based Proto that we know of in

sleep medicine so one of those is called

or combination of those is called

cognitive behavioral therapy for

insomnia or CBT might sound like CBT for

depression or anxiety it's actually I

don't like the term I wish we had not

come up with this term for cbti or the

or or really behavioral sleep medicine

because it it's confusing for people

ultimately what we're doing is we are

treating the insomnia as a brain pattern

that needs to be changed essentially or

we need to create a new pattern um and

uh we do this in a variety of ways

because as you can imagine insomnia is

not just a physiological Condition it's

a psychological one as well so we can't

just give you the physical things that

we know are going to increase your sleep

Drive which we do and fill in all those

gaps at night that you're currently

having we also need to work on your

attitude and the narrative and we need

to help you accept and commit to a a

variety of different sort of um

attitudes around sleep so that you don't

have this problem in the future because

fixing it right now is one thing and

making sure it doesn't come back is a

whole other thing so we stick to very

evidence-based strategies it's wonderful

it 100% works when you do it and the

reason I created re sleep is because

there were other online programs out

there there were books there were PDFs

you could learn how to fix your insomnia

yourself and what I was Finding is just

like weight loss it was really hard

because it requires you to be consistent

over time and it requires your patience

because unlike most of society or or the

things in society that we're sold this

isn't going to be a very reactive

process you're not going to do one

Behavior one night and then suddenly see

the results in two or three days you're

going to have to consistently really

work on your behavior we have to

regulate your behavior and your

consistency and you effectively a bit

like a robot have to ignore what is

happening with your sleep which is

probably going to go up up and down and

all around before people join our

program they're used to changing things

up as soon as they don't see the results

that they want freaking out when sleep

might even look slightly worse in the

short term before it gets better but

what we've done is we've tried to create

a program where there is a lot of

support a lot of ways you can ask

questions so lots of human interaction

and we have various types of experts so

you have me so we do lots of lives which

work really well it's not just speaking

to someone you know um that you can't

see we actually do live events so that

you can see me and we can talk to each

other you have group experts so people

who've already been through this and who

have had insomnia understand the trauma

of insomnia and understand what you're

going through because even better than

me they're going to be able to support

you and you might even trust them better

than you would trust a clinician and

then we've got lots of sleep coaches

that we've trained up who can help you

over email just because I think when

you're doing something a bit like physio

it's all very well going to see an

expert once a week but it's in the

moment where you're doing the exercise

where you really want to ask the

question and just be like am I doing

this right and for me specifically is

this how I should be doing it and often

we make a lot of compromises on the

program so there is a part of cbti which

is called in its very traditional term

sleep restriction therapy which sounds

utterly barbaric to me um and it's not

even restricting your sleep it's

restricting a bit of your bedtime that

you're not currently using and what we

did is we found a way to do this which

actually makes the process far more

sustainable and comfortable and that

helps people for example with chronic

conditions who can't just follow a

pedantic textbook a protocol that is for

the average healthy person who just

needs a bit of discipline we're looking

at people here who have all sorts of

things going on in their lives and we

want to help them um and so we created

re sleep and it's been wonderful it's

actually been amazing I have learned so

much more about this condition by

talking to these clients and my users

and I feel like we created the product

together and we continue to to build on

it every day it's such an amazing

approach to have a multidisciplinary

team around your clients and I think

that's really important for for any

health condition really is um it it

brings a a layer of accountability and a

buddy that you can ask the questions and

it's very different to what

people are used to experiencing in the

traditional Healthcare System um like

one thing that we've kind of learned

over the last while is even from

speaking to doctors ourselves is how

little they actually spend uh learning

about sleep in in college and that's

just crazy to me because it's such a

foundational element of our health and

then you probably have clients with re

sleep who have gone into their GP and

and spoken to them about maybe the

issues they're having and it's a

15minute consultation and then they're

sent home I mean yeah it's no longer

personalized care it feels like

personalized care because you get to go

and see a doctor but actually with

technology we can make it far more

personalized and far more regular I did

a piece of research a couple of years

ago and uh we just asked all the medical

schools in the country how much

education they were giving to undergrad

graduate medical students and the median

was something like an hour and a half

and to be honest I don't necessarily

trust that that is what it was because I

think there was a lot of guess work they

freely admitted that it was subsumed

heavily into other areas like neurology

um which is fine but not really because

sleep is something we do for a third of

our lives so we do need an an an

understanding about it and just giving

out sleep hygiene advice if you don't

really understand what that is and what

what it does and whether it's even going

to help someone who's a problem sleeper

which it doesn't then you're making the

problem worse and there's a bit of

research out there showing how much um

patients are feeling uh just very um

isolated so they go to the doctor and

they actually end up becoming more

isolated from society and more lonely

because they feel like they're not being

listened to and that's not the doctor's

fault because there there's lots of

research showing how pressured they feel

to give that person medication because

they don't know what else to do and

they've even resorted to unlicensed

medication just because they know it has

sleepy effects not understanding that

this idea that you can reset your sleep

is complete nonsense and I hear a lot of

people say that who come on to re sleep

they're like you know I've been given

drugs to reset my sleep and I'm like oh

God it's not to poo poo drugs by the way

because in certain circumstances drugs

can be really helpful in short-term

situations where you're anxieties are

getting the better of you you are going

through something else and what you

really need right now is just not to

have to worry about your sleep and if

you are someone who worries about your

sleep then having some medication to

cope with that absolutely fine but is it

going to help with your chronic

condition overall probably not so

there's so much education that needs to

be done I mean I would even argue that

the epidemic has been caused by you know

a lack of Education disseminating sleep

knowledge in a very scare Monger way you

know everyone seems to think they're The

Chronic sleep deprivation sufferer and

it's like well you can't be because

otherwise we'd all be dead by now and

that's not what I'm seeing in clinics so

there's something else going on here and

then this idea that you're made to feel

quite lonely and isolated from society

and even when you speak to your friends

and family you know they say things like

oh I don't know I that seems crazy to me

I just hit the pillow and I'm gone and

that's horrible to hear it's a bit like

saying to a depressed person why can't

you just be happy you would never do

that because we've been educated now and

I think that's the next stage we need to

start the education in sleep

medicine so I heard recently that women

need more sleep than men is this true it

is it is true okay and why is that not

really sure but it does make sense we go

through a lot of different changes in

our lives like our body's drastically

change you know going through menopause

going through pregnancy there is so many

um there are so many things that we do

have to go through um I would even argue

I mean when I think about it I'm like

you know all this research that comes

out about the mental load for example

and you know your brain is your brain is

busy processing in REM sleep that's what

it does or at least that's the best

theory that we have that we are

emotionally processing stuff in REM

sleep and if you think about back in

caveman days when you know we weren't

processing that much at all you know not

even as much as a a Netflix episode you

weren't getting that information and now

think about how much information you're

processing in the day and if your mental

load is high there's a lot going on

there so you know I mean is this

something we really need to I I don't I

I think about it in relative terms

because the reality is everybody needs a

different amount of sleep there is no

like you there's no regulation to follow

here um and I think that's really

important the individual differences are

incredible and I think that if we don't

by teaching everybody that we all need

eight hours that's the perfect sleep we

are causing other types of

illnesses um bit like clean eating you

can't you can't do that 100% of the

time yeah that makes sense and I I

recently saw it was actually uh Dr solah

is a psychologist that we had she's from

Sol wingas and she's from the UK and we

had her on our podcast a couple of weeks

ago but I saw she put up a post on

Instagram last week and I was like

that's me so I have I've a pretty like

pretty good quality sleep um I've never

thankfully had any issues with sleep

unless I'm going through like a

stressful period or whatever but one

really bad habit I do have is going to

bed and I'm on my phone for I'm probably

scrolling for like 45 minutes to an hour

um but I know the minute I put my phone

down I'll be sleep I'll be asleep within

like three to five minutes like it's

it's not a problem but it I'm sure it is

a problem um so I'd love to actually

just selfishly understand a little bit

more about that like solah posted on

Instagram she defined this as Revenge

bedtime

procrastination I love that I love it

let's Rebrand it I like it I like it a

lot um so it's interesting in my head

I'm I'm thinking of a few different

things here so first of all of course

you being connected all of the time your

brain very much Associates that with a

daytime activity and having uh daytime

chemicals to keep you going

um so continuously being on that phone

and the light exposure you're getting

from that phone is really telling your

brain in a variety of different ways

that you don't want to be sleeping right

now however there will be some people

that can just go to sleep afterwards so

is does that mean that what I'm saying

is not real no it's probably just that

you're actively restricting yourself

from sleep that you probably could be

happening having if you weren't on your

phone that's not everybody some people

do it as a consequence because they

can't sleep right but if you're someone

and I even find myself doing this

sometimes if and I can't take my phone

to bed with me anymore there's no way I

have no self-control over it so I have

to leave it outside the bedroom but if I

do it I do notice that I will extend my

wake time and I'm going to bed later

than I usually would and I don't have a

sleep problem therefore I'm actively

restricting myself from the sleep that I

could be getting and restriction will

always override any other habit that you

have so even if you're uh having extra

light exposure if you're restricted from

sleep it's that drive that is going to

be more influential on you and so

therefore you fall asleep quicker when

you put it down um but loads of people

will be listening and this is why

medicine needs to become more

personalized I can't give advice that is

for everybody because some people will

be doing as a consequence of not

sleeping and when they put that phone

down they will not get to sleep but I

think the very people that this lady is

describing is like me and you the people

that are just it's there and so you're

on it and then suddenly before you know

it it's that gambling thing isn't it

where they're not showing you a funny

video often enough so you're scrolling

further to try and find it again or

something similar which is worrying um

but that's how he works so yeah get get

rid of those phones get so uh was uh she

was actually posting that she's

committed to reading Eight Pages of her

book a night as a substitute for her

phone um so I must ask her how that's

going um

so in terms of dreams so sometimes I

will wake up in the morning and I had a

really Vivid dream and I default to

telling myself I had a bad sleep and the

nights where I I don't I know everyone

dreams every every night but the nights

where I don't wake up uh remembering any

dreams and I I I believe I've slept the

whole night through I'm like I had a

really good quality sleep sleep a really

good night's sleep is that the case like

do vivid dreams correlate to to good or

bad sleep are they healthy so it's a

it's always a complicated answer so

first of all we all dream we all have

bad dreams good dreams and we can

sometimes have nightmares now when you

wake up from a dream or a nightmare a

bad dream um you're probably especially

if you can remember it in graphic detail

you probably at some point woke up in

the middle of a REM cycle so that's a

stage of your sleep where we believe you

do a lot of your emotional and memory

processing um and so that was probably

interrupted now when we look at sleep as

a whole like let's say we're doing a

full-on sleep study a polysomnography on

you and we have a look at your sleep we

will see some arousals during the night

but it's just that when they happen to

be in REM sleep that's normal by the way

to see arousals that you won't even

remember but we'll see them and that

doesn't mean anything is wrong

necessarily it depends when the

interruptions are and what what's going

on sometimes you might get interrupted

in REM sleep it happens more as you get

older because REM sleep is an incredibly

sensitive period of your sleep and it

happens more often in the second half of

the night so as we get older we become a

bit lazy in terms of our Cadian Rhythm

and it's actually we become more uh sort

of morning types we want to go to bed

earlier and get up earlier and part of

that is because sleep becomes more

sensitive it's just harder to keep

yourself asleep when you've got all

these medications and illnesses and your

your sleep in general has just becoming

more sensitive and REM sleep is just in

general more sensitive so that stage can

be interrupted more and then you're more

likely to remember your dreams or even

for someone who's young um and you have

a van that drives past for example in

the middle of the night that doesn't

usually drive past and it just so

happens you're going through a REM cycle

you might wake up in that cycle and that

can make you feel really knackered even

if all of your sleep around it was

actually really good so does it always

have to mean that you had a bad night no

but also it's this idea I've been

thinking about this a lot recently this

concept of time and how time is very

much a human construct and the thing is

you can have eight hours of really

really good sleep uh really really bad

sleep and you can also have 20 minutes

of really really good sleep um and I

think really what I'm trying to say is

sometimes you can wake up in the night

and you can feel like it's morning

because you woke up in a light stage of

sleep and feel absolutely fine and okay

let's start the day and then you look at

your clock and you're like oh actually

I've got four hours left before I have

to get up and you can go back to sleep

in those cases it's just that you did

wake up in a light stage of sleep

doesn't mean there's anything wrong or

anything like that and similar REM

Interruption if it's not happening too

regularly does it mean anything's wrong

no something probably just woke you in

that stage it is true that extra stress

extra consumption of um things like

stimulants like caffeine can definitely

exacerbate this um and you might notice

that you are dreaming more graphically

and if you're sleep sleep is generally

just broken you're not looking after it

very well then you might notice that

this is happening to you and other

people might notice other things like

just interrupted sleep or sleep

paralysis or night terrors or something

else and then just to caveat all of it

yes it can be a sign of more significant

Sleep Disorders it's much more rare but

it can be a sign when it is very it

happening all of the time um and you're

really exhausted it's starting to affect

your day um it can be a sign of other

things as well so the answer is never

simple but the real ity is we're always

dreaming um we can't not dream and every

now and again all of us are going to

remember a dream graphically and if it's

happening to you more often than not at

the moment then there are things you can

do just to look at your environment and

what you're putting into your body and

just being a bit consistent with your

sleep behaviors and you might even

notice you can get it to be a bit better

but you're never going to avoid it

because you just can't stop

interruptions at night yeah and I do I

do also find that it's worse um after

I've drank alcohol is there is there

something when I say worse I mean I'll

wake up uh with a hangover probably uh

but I'll also reflect on my sleep and

maybe say like I feel like I was nearly

Dreaming or thinking the whole way

through my sleep yeah is that like your

is are you stuck in a particular stage

of sleep or what's going on there yeah

it's harder to have REM sleep um when

you're when you have alcohol it's very

easy to get interrupted um so in the

first part of the night probably feel

like this is very simple terms you'll

probably feel like you it's a bit of a

sedat response so you'll feel a bit more

sleepy for having that glass of wine but

then your body Burns it off and then you

have a bit of a wake rebound now whether

that to you looks like you're going to

be wide awake from 3 o'cl in the morning

that's me by the way that's definitely

me with alcohol but other people won't

be like that they will just have very

interrupted sleep all the way through

the night and then part of that hangover

in the morning is not just dehydration

it's because you haven't been going

through your sleep cycles the way you

usually would and there's nothing really

to worry about but of course not to do

that on a very regular basis we do know

that alcoholics have worse mental health

and worse sleep because they're not able

to enter REM for as long or even at all

when they go when they're just

constantly on alcohol the entire time

okay makes sense from from an an

environment perspective then so as Amy

said we we've tried everything are in

the process trying stuff so like right

now we have a white noise machine in the

room a fan well we turned off the fan

now because it's too cold sleep masks

you know we've we've tried it all do are

any of these environmental factors are

they any of them form part of your

program are any of them evidencebased do

you advise on it there it's

not again complicated answer it's not

that they're not evidence-based if you

have a bad mattress for you specifically

it is going to interrupt your sleep but

the reality is when you have broken

sleep if as long as you've looked at all

the obvious causes like for example

you're just freezing cold because the

temperature in your room is not quite

ideal for you or you're too hot but if

you can't see those things very clearly

then it's unlikely that it is your

environment that's causing problems and

you probably will get more influence on

your sleep by changing your behavior and

nothing to do with buying products or

doing anything like that the only thing

that I would say that has almost as much

influence as your own behavior is light

um and light at the right time and that

is because we have uh evolved on this

particular planet and it has a very

specific light light light dark cycle um

and it's fascinating I think how we

react how we are dial creatures we're

not very nocturnal at all we don't cope

well um in the dark but does that mean

you don't really have to think about

your environment you can't just I mean

to a degree I mean you can find people

all over the worlds that are sleeping in

the harshest environments and they are

sleeping you know they are sleeping but

if you move from an environment that you

are comfortable with and you move to

another environment that's not so

comfortable then yes it is worth looking

at your environment and just making sure

that there's nothing obvious that is

impacting on your sleep but when people

go to all these lengths I find it very

obsessive and ritualistic and it just

makes them go off into OCD land and then

they're thinking if I don't do this

particular thing even though my sleep's

not that good even with it but if I take

it away surely my sleep will be worse

and then you end up being obsessed with

all these things during the day and

quite neurotic about it which only makes

your sleep worse and then when I speak

to people about this they often say yes

but sometimes it works and I'm like

that's not how it works when it

sometimes works it's because you have a

strong sleep Drive something about your

behavior was very much in line with your

Cadian rhythms everything was working

well for you that day and that's why it

looked like that breathing exercise or

that perfect duvet that you bought

yourself this morning had an effect um

when actually it's probably more to do

with something physiological about you

or your behavior um so yeah it's an

interesting one it's just not to get too

head up about it yeah I think there's a

distinction as well between like you and

I like we both have pretty good quality

sleep and yes we love these things but

we're not like totally Reliant or

obsessed on them H all that I'm will

never give up I will never give up the

white noise machine as

long people yeah I mean I some people

find that such a comfort though and and

there is you know especially if you're

living in an area that is noisy or you

have tinitus or there is something else

that you can't sleep with noise is a

great way consistent noise is a great

way to offset that so there's nothing

wrong with anyone's ways of sleeping

like I said before it has to be

personalized we need to start thinking

within the Realms of personalized

medicine on that you're you're

mentioning personalization and

personalized all the time which I'm

totally in agreement with I I actually

did some functional testing a couple of

weeks ago to get like a a bigger picture

on my hormones and what's going on um

not for Sleep reasons for other reasons

um but it was so interesting so a lot of

my hormones they're all over the place

but we're working on it um it's all good

but my melatonin levels were probably

the only thing on the results chart that

was optimal um which wasn't a surprise

to me because my sleep is quite good

thank God but

um I'm interested to know does

functional testing ever come in to re

sleep and your program uh do you

ever go go about that with any of your

clients I or that's interesting it's

something that we're looking at in the

future but not necessarily for the type

of client that we're currently treating

so for example with insomnia because we

understand that it's less to do with the

trigger and more to do with the

perpetuating factors um we don't really

need to do things like sleep studies in

order to prove that insomnia is there so

it's much more taking a medical history

and understanding that better I think

when it comes to functional uh testing

and sleep in terms of very specifically

because there's lots of different types

of tests you can do for different Sleep

Disorders um things like insomnia I

think there might be a case for it in

the future because especially for

females we are not there's not enough

studies and there's not enough

information research tests out there

right now to help people understand how

their hormones affect them and if that

information can help someone I always

think education is or or knowledge is

power so you know I do think think that

there is a lot we could learn about our

sleep cycles and our hormones and how

that might affect us on a regular basis

but only not because I think suddenly

you're going to need to take all these

new uh supplements in order to fix your

sleep but maybe to change our

expectations and help us understand when

people go through menopause for example

for sure even going through re sleep can

still help their sleep if they've had

the problem for longer than three months

however they also need to understand

that their expectations of sleep need to

change because their bodies are in a

different mode completely so I think a

lot of people that come through the

program for example they will look at

their sleep when they were 25 years old

or when they had absolutely zero sleep

issue and they will expect that they

should be able to get back to that but

what they're not taking into

consideration is how old they've got for

example the environment they are now in

internally and externally so internally

we're talking about new illnesses

chronic conditions that might have come

up changes in the body but also also

externally the environment you're living

in your schedule your work all these

things have an impact so we a lot I got

asked today actually on one of our Lives

you know what can we expect our sleep to

look like after the program and all I

can say is that we can 100% not you will

not have your chronic insomnia if you

follow it and you are consistent with it

but what does that mean it doesn't mean

your sleep is going to be perfect on the

other end of it it also doesn't mean

it's going to look like it did when you

were 25 years old that's important so I

think expectations are really important

and that's why I'm all about normalizing

sleep issues and helping people

understand that your sleep's going to

look different from the next person but

your sleep is also going to look

different from a few months or years ago

when your body was in a completely

different

place yeah I think that's that's a a

really important thing to highlight is

how we do we do evolve as we age and are

not only like biologically but like our

our circumstances our lifestyle change

um and sleep requirement obviously

changes as well yeah in terms of

sleeping positions what is there an

optimal sleeping position to be in I I

always avoid when I get asked to go on

the radio or something and talk about

sleeping positions unlike go and speak

to someone who's a back expert but the

reality is no everyone's going to be

different again it really depends on

your body um and what illnesses or you

know ailments that you have going on um

but there isn't any position that you

know and to be honest even if there is

you try and keep yourself in that

position all the way through the night

how dare

you one key the big question I want to

ask for couples really is it actually

beneficial to sleep with your partner I

mean in the same bed because I even feel

sometimes when you're gone away in

business or wherever you're gone I sleep

better less disturbances when you talk

to a lot of people they're like oh yeah

I always sleep better when by myself I

know the queen had her own bed and then

there's this guy at the moment Brian

Johnson I don't know if you've come

across him he's trying to I think what's

this uh tag like try forever he's trying

to live forever anyway and he he goes to

bed he's had like a 100% sleep score for

I don't know six months in a row he has

to go to bed before 8:30 so he can't

meet his friends but he always sleeps in

a bed by himself as well so is there any

studies done on that so there's a couple

of things there so first of all we're

not creatures that were designed to or

or evolved to sleep with another

circadian rhythm because we're all if

you think about it we all have a

slightly different 24-hour cycle they're

not exact in each person and there's

going to be so many things that

determine that so actually most people

will probably sleep better on their own

and and I as I understand it there is

lots of research out there showing that

couples who sleep separately tend to

have more sex and better marri marriages

so it really depends also on your

expectations um it depends on your

expectations because if you're if you

believe that you will have a bad

marriage because you don't sleep in the

same room with somebody or you you know

bad things will happen to you then of

course your your whole belief system is

going to be different and it's going

your belief system is also going to

impact how well you sleep so you know

there's a physiological aspect here and

then there's this psychological aspect

and and how you believe um because that

changes everything about you and your

behavior um as for getting I mean on a

slightly separate note as to getting a

perfect sleep score and doing everything

you can I mean it is true just like

clean eating if you've got enough money

and enough time and you devote enough to

it and you you know your sole purpose is

to get the best sleep of your life then

you probably will be able to get

something I doubt it is 100% sleep score

that's only what he was tracking on and

what is that based on like you know yeah

logical here um you can't it's it's

impossible to have completely 100%

perfect sleep all of the time but you

can get probably close to it if you

throw enough resources at it but the

reality is we're living in an age where

technology has advanced far quicker than

our brains and that's why I say because

when you just look at physiology your

sleep expectations from a young adult to

the day you die are not supposed to be

different but that's assuming nothing

happens to you and your environment is

exactly the same for the entire time you

know the illnesses and medications you

get given don't affect you that's not

that doesn't happen so there's not

really much Point speaking in those

terms you can still have a happy life

you can still have good sleep you can

still live a long time and not get

Alzheimer's and just live a little bit

more averagely rather than Perfection

which doesn't exist in the science

anyway often makes people sick and end

up with other issues like we said before

yeah you touched on sleep tracking there

um and I know it it gives me more

anxiety than helps really with tracking

um two questions really like do you

think tracking is good or or bad and

have you thought about what the future

looks like for technology and sleep and

where my play a bigger part um so first

of all with tracking it I the way I see

now is not good or bad it's just not

something that we are very good at

coping with right now we don't

understand it enough so first of all

there's the idea that a lot of sleep

trackers aren't very accurate so that's

an issue in itself for all very black

and white reasons but what if they are

completely accurate what if they can

prove that actually most of the time

they are super accurate that's an issue

because for example insomnia is not

based on the fact that your your

physiology is broken actually there's a

whole side of it that's to do with how

you feel about your sleep and your

perception of what's going on this is

incredibly important because when you're

looking at a normal sleep you will see

arousals during the night for example

but if your sleep tracker is telling you

exactly how your sleep went and your

perception is that that isn't normal or

it's not or you want to make it better

because anytime that anything mentions a

numerical figure we love to put a value

on it so we want to make it better so if

you're given a a percentage then you

know you're going to naturally try to

make it better or keep it there the

whole time I think in the future it

would be wonderful to

see uh tracking in a way that is much

more around consistency and less and not

even looking night to night looking at

averages over a longer period of time

and not in a numerical way so that would

be interesting finding different ways to

see that consistency and from your

Baseline to now how you are but not in a

way that we're used to I think that

could be amazing um and I think

technology is going to play a part in

sleep because technology is just the way

we're going you can't hide away from it

or keep telling everyone is bad because

it's it is here it's already here so I

definitely think there is room for and

in terms of personalized medicine I mean

in re sleep we've certainly made it work

for us so that we can reach more people

um and yes the traditional sense you

could see an expert once a week but you

see them once a week they can't see you

once a day or talk to you when you need

them uh you don't get that support um in

fact a lot of people who work in

medicine are super overworked and aren't

be going to be able to give you the time

anyway and then when you have a full-on

consultation you never take it all in

anyway so there are so many things wrong

with that model um that technology is

something that we can 100% use to make

it better when we are fixing Sleep

Disorders a lot of the time we do need

to use some sort of tracking in order to

help it's just that that is incredibly

different from just tracking your sleep

in general and that's where I think it

can become a problem so I don't think

tracking per se is an issue it's just

the way that we at the moment look at it

um and I definitely think there's room

for doing something amazing that could

really Empower people and make people

feel good and that is not going to be a

night toight tracker that's going to

look very

different you mentioned there I think um

that Healthcare practitioners are often

those that struggle with their sleep I I

think I looked up on that um and I was

curious to know are there particular

Industries where you do see Sleep

Disorders more commonly well it's really

biased for me because obviously I've got

so I've got a private clinic and I see

quite a lot of different types of people

and as that clinic has grown I've seen

quite high-profile individuals so I'm

always quite surprised about the type of

person and I see from a premier league

footballer to um to poit politicians we

see a lot of politicians um and then I

see a lot of investment bankers and

lawyers and accountants and people who

have actually very structured roles and

are super disciplined and are not my not

necessarily incredibly anxious but then

I'm I'm super shocked when I I always

surprises me when somebody comes along

who seems to get it has got it all

sorted like they are successful in every

meaning of the term but the one thing

that defies them and I don't mean that

they've got broken sleep I mean that

they equally get as traumatized and

stressed about sleep and I I you know I

think we need to do more research into

this because there is something about

sleep and I don't know if it's just

because there is a real lack of

Education around it like false education

around it but but we really we really

feel it's such a personal thing to us we

we like to blame sleep for everything

sleep is so important to us it's like

the second topic of talking after the

weather for at least people in England

um but then you know going back to who

who suffers more I mean I also have an

occupational health clinic um at the

Royal Deon and exitor um and um I see

lots of different types of uh Health

Care Professionals from surgeons to

doctors to nurses so I guess the point

I'm trying to make is that it doesn't

discriminate um and it can because

there's so many different types of it

you can get someone who's retired and

for sure part of the reason is because

they've lost a routine that was actually

really helpful for them to stick to some

very consistent sleep behaviors but

equally you'll see someone who's an

investment banker who just doesn't have

enough time for anything and has a very

specific schedule that can't change

who's who's got incredible anxiety and

stress over it um so yeah I can't give

you an answer to that until it comes out

I don't know my my experience is all

different yeah that makes sense um so I

asked about uh functional testing within

re sleep um and something just came up

in my head there as well was really

around like nutrition fixes and like do

you guys ever explore this or look at

this um like I'm sure I don't know if

this has ever happened but if someone

came into your clinic and was consuming

a lot of caffeine before bed like that's

an obvious that's an obvious fix but

does it actually play that much of a

role in your process with re sleep so at

the moment it doesn't and the simple

answer to that is there's absolutely no

evidence that any kind of additional

food supplementation of any kind is

going to fix a chronic sleep problem

however and there's a caveat to this

because obviously we're getting a very

specific type of insomnia person come

through to us we don't actually see

people who are excessive excessive

caffeine drinkers because most people

who are excessive caffeine drinkers most

people who would would want to do

something about it they sort of know

they know what they can do and they

understand what the issue is so we don't

really get that come through but in the

future like I said we are going to start

looking at sort of opening up who re

sleep could be for and if we do see

people with specific type of

deficiencies that we can help with then

we absolutely will start to look into

that but it is just so rare like unless

I mean if you've got a chronic condition

which really affects your gut for

example that is absolutely going to

impact your sleep we can still help you

from a very sleep behavioral perspective

to make that process much more

comfortable for you and really almost

reverse engineer it so fix your sleep to

help you deal with the chronic condition

but you're absolutely right there will

be elements for that very specific

person that might might come from

actually we need to supplement your diet

with this specific thing and that is

probably going to help you with your

sleep because the deficiency is so big I

think that that definitely makes sense

especially in regards to the types of

people you see in your practice who do

have chronic sleep issues um I guess for

ourselves like I know nutrition does

impact my sleep in that like if I eat

too close to bedtime like I'll probably

be tossing and turning yeah that's the

biggest one for me the time restricted

eating and I know if I have my last meal

before half six like I'm going to

pretty much sleep better yeah yeah I'd

say like 90% of the time that's going to

be a good night sleep that's one thing

I've just noticed but um it it makes it

to me kind of inherently makes sense

that if you're trying to digest a load

of food this why I always think the

Spanish have got a completely arss like

in terms of they eat up until you know 1

in the morning and then I don't know

they sleep later you see so you're

you're absolutely right in terms of the

timing of your sleep sorry your food

rather than what you're eating that

actually has way more impact just like

some of the other the timings of your

other behaviors and it's because your

appetite regulating hormones and your

metabolism works on this 24-hour cycle

as well so of course when you do things

is going to impact what happens to you

but also because your sleep weake cycle

is on the same 24-hour cycle you've got

to have a point where you're allowed to

sleep and you can't metabolize and sleep

well at the same times we're not we

again we haven't evolved to do that very

well so you're absolutely right in that

eating you know too close to bed time is

going to force your brain to make a

decision do you want to sleep well or do

you want to metabolize your food or not

even make a decision try to do both and

then obviously it doesn't end very well

but the opposite is true as well I see a

lot of people who are trying to do

various types of diets where they might

not eat hours before they go to bed and

then they can have sleep disruption

because they get hungry and the body

feels like it should need it needs

something something and you're trying to

get it to sleep and therefore again

wrong signals at wrong times that's why

eating at quite consistent times in

terms of your Cadian rhythms is quite

helpful because then your brain gets

used to when you want to feel hungry and

when you want to feel full which also

helps understand the other points where

it's allowed to make you feel awake and

when to feel sleepy and actually sleep

so you're absolutely right the timing of

your behaviors is all but again that

just comes down to me that is under the

umbrella sleep behaviors the timing of

your behaviors is so important you can

influence your physiology so much with

your behaviors which doesn't require any

money that's what I'm always trying to

tell people so don't waste all their

money yeah so I think the summary of

this podcast is like when it comes to

sleep disorders if anyone is listening

that does have a sleep disorder is the

approach is behavior-based um we'll

share Stephanie links to to re sleep and

so people can connect with you and

follow you

um but before we we wrap up we do always

ask our guests um a question and that

question is really the premise of the

podcast and what Fergus and I are trying

to answer um and it is the in a world

where medicine is becoming more advanced

why are people becoming more sick so do

you agree with that and if so

why I want to know what I answered last

time because remember at all what did I

say last time I actually I actually

don't remember either well we don't have

it to to

compare you can fre I can just throw

whatever I want ask me this question

again so that I can be really clear in a

world where medicine is becoming more

advanced why are people becoming more

sick so okay I think partly it's because

we haven't really understood how to how

to take in information so the more

information we seem to be in a place

where we can get a lot of information

but we don't really know how to take

that information a bit like sleep

tracking we we really don't know how to

digest that information in a way that's

good for us and therefore it starts to

make us do other behaviors that might

not be so good for sleep for example

when we're not very educated and I guess

that comes down to the fact that a lot

of medicine is not being disseminated in

quite the right way perhaps because when

when it comes to critical thinking a lot

of us aren't taught in schools how to do

critical thinking so most of us aren't

taught that when we're looking for

evidence of something you can't just go

online and type something in and you're

going to get the right answer you'll get

an answer but does that mean it's the

right answer no and even when you're

looking at a research study who has

funded the research study how is the

research study done how many studies are

there is that the population of people

that you need to be looking at there are

so many things you need to take into

consideration and it honestly blows your

mind when you look into it because then

you start to worry about looking at

research and and taking you know the

information from the research it's the

best thing we have but it could be

improved dramatically and there's lots

of biases in research in terms of who's

doing the res so many things so I think

probably we're in an age where we've

just started to get so much more

information but perhaps we're not using

it quite the way that we need to our

brains haven't quite caught up with how

much technology and information that

there is available so I guess that would

be my main answer I feel like I had

another I had something else last time

but I've completely forgotten what it is

but that is probably my how I feel about

it right now and you know what most of

our guests have said the exact same

thing um it doesn't matter if they've

come from like if they're a nutritional

therapist or a breath work facilitator

like everyone is really highlighting the

the information that exists and the

technology behind that as well just

driving that on um but Stephanie thank

you so much again for your time we won't

do it we won't do it a third time unless

you want unless you

want oh no it was lovely thanks guys

yeah I really enjoyed it and also I just

know this is going to be such a helpful

resource um to our community so we're

really excited to share this and H get

this this episode live and as I said we

will um make sure to share all of your

information with our community as well

thank you so

much thank you