Leadership Lessons From the Prime Minister of Canada | Justin Trudeau | TED

Summary

In this insightful conversation, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau discusses his approach to leadership, emphasizing the importance of connecting with people genuinely and the challenges of navigating divisive political landscapes. He reflects on his experiences, from overcoming preconceptions due to his father's legacy to dealing with criticism and polarization. Trudeau also touches on his commitment to service, the necessity of compromise in politics, and the balance he strives to maintain between his personal life and the demands of his role.

Takeaways

• 😌 Justin Trudeau emphasizes the importance of being genuine and having real conversations to put people at ease, rather than focusing on superficial interactions.
• 👨‍👧‍👦 Trudeau's childhood experiences, growing up with his father as Prime Minister, influenced his understanding of service and the impact of small acts of representation.
• 🔮 He was surprised to find that the less visible aspects of the Prime Minister's role, such as being a voice for the community, were more impactful and aligned with his previous experience as a teacher.
• 👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 Trudeau acknowledges the challenge of dealing with disapproval and dislikes by focusing on service and the meaningful difference he can make, rather than seeking popularity.
• 🧘‍♂️ The Prime Minister discusses the need to detach from external perceptions and to find constructive criticism or praise, regardless of the emotions they elicit.
• 👶 Trudeau had to navigate childhood experiences of being disliked due to his father's political position, learning early on to separate personal identity from external opinions.
• 🤔 He reflects on the empathy needed to understand those who express extreme hatred or polarization, and the importance of serving all Canadians, even those who dislike him.
• 🌟 Trudeau admits to moments of self-doubt and the impostor syndrome but found authenticity and hard work helped to overcome these feelings and earn his place in politics.
• 💪 He believes in the necessity of surrounding oneself with a strong team and empowering others, highlighting the importance of collaborative leadership.
• 🔄 Trudeau is committed to continuous self-reflection on his leadership, ensuring he remains fully invested and motivated to serve the people to the best of his abilities.
• 🌍 The Prime Minister discusses the balance of addressing global crises while also focusing on domestic issues such as poverty, climate change, and reconciliation with Indigenous people.

Q & A

How does Justin Trudeau approach meeting new people and putting them at ease?

Justin Trudeau focuses on getting through people's preconceived notions or nervousness to have real conversations quickly. He aims to make people comfortable in being themselves during their interactions with him.

What surprised Trudeau the most about the Prime Minister role that he didn't expect growing up?

Trudeau was surprised by the importance of the 'little things' in the Prime Minister role, such as being a community's representative and making a difference in people's lives, which he likened to his previous experience as a teacher.

How does Trudeau deal with the fact that millions of people may disapprove of his decisions or dislike him personally?

Trudeau acknowledges that being liked or disliked comes with the job and isn't the main focus. He emphasizes service and making a meaningful difference. He also detaches himself from people's perceptions, seeking constructive criticism even when it's not intended that way.

What was Trudeau's initial career aspiration and how did it evolve into politics?

Trudeau initially wanted to be a fireman, astronaut, or prime minister like his father. However, he later strayed from politics, realizing his differences from his father. It was through teaching and connecting with people that he found his path back to politics, different from his father's intellectual approach.

How does Trudeau handle criticism that feels particularly painful?

Trudeau tries to empathize with the critic, understanding what in their life might have led to such a reaction. He also reminds himself that as the Prime Minister of all Canadians, he needs to focus on making their lives better regardless of their opinion of him.

What does Trudeau think about the necessity of confidence to hold the Prime Minister role?

Trudeau believes that confidence comes from understanding the job and the ability to bring together a strong team. He emphasizes the importance of being able to mobilize and inspire people, rather than seeing oneself as the top of a hierarchy.

How does Trudeau manage the feeling of being an impostor in his role?

Trudeau was aware of the impostor syndrome throughout his life but didn't feel it when he was elected as an MP. He attributes this to working hard to overcome people's expectations and earning their trust and support.

What does Trudeau believe is the key to being a good leader?

Trudeau believes a good leader is one who ensures every team member performs at their best, especially in crucial moments. He emphasizes lifting up everyone around, rather than just being the one at the top giving orders.

How does Trudeau approach the idea of quitting his role as Prime Minister?

Trudeau admits to regularly checking in with himself about his commitment to the role and its responsibilities. He believes in being honest about one's ability to serve and lead effectively, and currently, he feels fully committed to his role.

What does Trudeau see as the biggest challenge in his role as Prime Minister?

Trudeau sees the ongoing crises and progressive work, such as lifting kids out of poverty, fighting climate change, and working with Indigenous people, as significant challenges. He emphasizes the importance of not being complacent and staying focused on these issues.

How does Trudeau ensure that he is making decisions that are in the best interest of all Canadians?

Trudeau focuses on the best available science and expert consensus to make decisions. He also considers the willingness of Canadians to support these decisions and looks for ways to nudge the country in the right direction, even if it's not the absolute optimal solution.

Outlines

00:00

😌 Personal Approach to Connection

Justin Trudeau discusses his personal method of connecting with people by quickly getting past preconceived notions to have genuine conversations. He expresses his disinterest in small talk, preferring to engage on topics of substance. Trudeau's approach is influenced by his family history, particularly his father's legacy as Prime Minister, and his desire to make people feel comfortable being themselves in his presence.

05:02

🌟 The Unexpected Aspects of Leadership

Trudeau shares insights on the surprising elements of his role as Prime Minister, including the impact of being a community representative even when not in power. He likens his role to that of a teacher, emphasizing the importance of making a difference through small, meaningful engagements and empowering people. Trudeau also addresses the challenge of dealing with public disapproval and the importance of focusing on service rather than popularity.

10:02

🤔 Navigating Public Perception and Criticism

In this section, Trudeau speaks to the reality of public service and the inevitable criticism that comes with decision-making. He acknowledges the distribution of public opinion and the importance of not seeking popularity for its own sake. Trudeau discusses the necessity of detaching from personal emotions when faced with criticism or praise, focusing instead on extracting constructive feedback. He also reflects on his early experiences with public perception due to his father's political career and how he learned to manage external opinions.

15:02

🔥 Handling Personal Criticism and Empathy

Trudeau delves into his personal strategies for dealing with intense criticism and polarization. He emphasizes the importance of empathy, trying to understand the experiences that lead individuals to harbor negative sentiments. Trudeau discusses the distinction between his role as Prime Minister for all Canadians and the personal challenge of separating others' opinions of him from his own self-perception, especially when it concerns his family or team.

20:03

🏆 The Evolution of Political Ambition

Trudeau reflects on his journey into politics and the evolution of his ambition. He initially saw himself in politics later in life, after establishing a separate identity from his father. However, through his work as a teacher and youth activist, he discovered his strengths in mobilizing and inspiring others. As he became more involved in politics, he recognized his ability to rebuild and lead the Liberal Party, despite initial hesitations about taking on such a significant role.

25:03

🤷‍♂️ Overcoming Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome

Trudeau candidly discusses his lifelong experience with impostor syndrome and how he managed to overcome it, particularly on his first day as an elected MP. He credits his hard work and authenticity during his election campaign for earning the trust of his constituents, which in turn alleviated his self-doubt. Trudeau emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself and not being complacent, despite the challenges and pressures of his role.

30:04

🛠 Balancing Work and Personal Life

In this segment, Trudeau talks about the importance of maintaining a balance between his work and personal life. He highlights the need for self-care, such as getting enough sleep, exercising, and spending time with family and friends. Trudeau stresses that being a whole person with a range of experiences and emotions is crucial for staying grounded and effective as a leader.

35:05

🗣️ Encouraging Open Communication in Leadership

Trudeau addresses the challenge of creating an environment where team members feel safe to speak truth to power. He emphasizes the importance of representing one's community and ensuring that MPs are not just voices of the Prime Minister but also advocates for their constituents. Trudeau discusses the need for basic interpersonal skills to accept criticism and create a space for diverse opinions within his team.

📚 The Role of a Teacher in Policy Communication

Trudeau reflects on his tendency to revert to his teacher roots when explaining policies, which his team advises against. They encourage him to focus on conveying confidence in the plan and the vision for Canada's future rather than getting lost in the details. Trudeau acknowledges the struggle to balance his teaching instincts with his role as a leader communicating a broader narrative.

🇨🇦 Embracing Canadian Identity and Adaptability

In this final paragraph, Trudeau discusses the Canadian identity, highlighting the country's adaptability and agreeableness. He touches on the idea of 'as Canadian as possible under the circumstances,' which reflects a pragmatic approach to life's challenges. Trudeau also shares his thoughts on leadership advice, the importance of being true to oneself, and the need for leaders to bring people together in a time of division.

Keywords

💡Ease

In the context of the video, 'ease' refers to the comfort and relaxation that Justin Trudeau seeks to instill in people when he interacts with them. It is about overcoming preconceived notions and nervousness to foster genuine conversations. Trudeau mentions that he learned to put people at ease throughout his life, which is a skill he uses in his political career to connect with individuals beyond their initial apprehensions.

💡Preconceptions

Preconceptions are pre-existing beliefs or judgments formed before getting to know someone or something. In the script, Trudeau discusses how people have preconceptions about him due to his father's legacy as a prime minister. He aims to move past these preconceptions to have authentic interactions, which is a significant theme in his approach to leadership and communication.

💡Representation

Representation in the video script denotes the act of serving as a voice or advocate for a community or group of people. Trudeau speaks about his role as a Member of Parliament, emphasizing the importance of being a community's representative and making a difference in people's lives, even without being in a position of direct power.

💡Service

Service is a core concept in the script, referring to the dedication to helping others and making a meaningful impact on people's lives. Trudeau clarifies that his motivation for entering politics and serving as Prime Minister is rooted in a sense of service, rather than a desire for popularity or personal gain.

💡Polarization

Polarization is the process or result of dividing into opposing groups or factions, often with strong differences in opinion. Trudeau discusses the challenges of dealing with polarization and the toxicity in political discourse, and how he tries to approach criticism with empathy and a focus on service.

💡Impostor Syndrome

Impostor Syndrome is the feeling of inadequacy and fear of being exposed as a 'fraud' despite evidence of success. Trudeau admits to experiencing this throughout his life and career, especially in roles where he felt he had to live up to expectations. However, he describes overcoming this feeling through hard work and earning the trust of his constituents.

💡Leadership

Leadership in the video is portrayed as more than just holding a position of power; it involves inspiring, mobilizing, and organizing people. Trudeau emphasizes the importance of lifting up team members to perform at their best and creating an environment where everyone can contribute effectively to the mission.

💡Authenticity

Authenticity is the quality of being true to oneself, regardless of external pressures or expectations. Trudeau stresses the importance of being authentic in his role as Prime Minister, from campaigning to policy-making, and believes that this authenticity is key to earning and maintaining the trust of the people.

💡Compromise

Compromise is the concept of finding a middle ground or a solution that accommodates different viewpoints or interests. Trudeau discusses the necessity of compromise in politics, especially in a diverse country like Canada, and how it is a part of the process to build consensus and move forward on important issues.

💡Diversity

Diversity refers to the range of differences among people, including but not limited to race, ethnicity, gender, and beliefs. Trudeau highlights the importance of embracing diversity in his team and in the country, as it enriches the perspectives and solutions to the challenges faced by Canada.

💡Binary Bias

Binary Bias is the tendency to view issues as having only two opposing sides or solutions, often oversimplifying complex realities. Trudeau and Adam Grant discuss the need to avoid binary bias and consider a 'third point of view' to foster unity and find common ground in a divided society.

Highlights

Justin Trudeau emphasizes the importance of breaking through preconceived notions to have genuine conversations.

Trudeau learned to navigate his father's legacy and the expectations it brought, aiming to make people comfortable in being themselves.

He discovered the impactful role of a community representative even without being in government, relating it to his experience as a teacher.

Trudeau discusses the inevitability of disapproval in his role, suggesting that indifference would imply irrelevance.

He acknowledges the challenge of detaching personal emotions from public perception and criticism.

Trudeau's approach to leadership involves surrounding himself with a diverse team of talented individuals.

He admits to feeling the 'impostor syndrome' throughout his life but overcame it through hard work and earning trust.

Trudeau reflects on the necessity of regularly checking one's motivation and commitment to leadership.

He shares insights on maintaining a balance between personal life and the demands of being Prime Minister.

Trudeau highlights the importance of allowing team members to voice their communities' concerns without fear.

He admits to struggling with the shift from being a teacher to a leader, focusing too much on policy explanation.

Trudeau discusses the challenge of navigating divisive issues while maintaining a cohesive vision for Canada.

He emphasizes the need for political courage, which sometimes involves making tough decisions and standing firm on principles.

Trudeau's decision-making process involves seeking expert consensus and balancing it with public readiness and policy coherence.

He reflects on the art of compromise and the importance of finding common ground in politics.

Trudeau advises his future self to be patient, recognizing that achieving the right outcomes may take time and incremental steps.

Transcripts

Adam Grant: I'm actually curious about this idea of putting people at ease.

How do you think about doing that when you show up?

Justin Trudeau: I don't, I don't think about it.

Being able to just try and get through people's preconceived notions

or expectations or nervousness

to try and have a real conversation as quickly as possible

is just something that I guess ...

I guess I learned how to try to do throughout my life.

Talking about the weather always sort of bored me,

but actually having real conversations about things that matter

was what I always wanted to do whenever I'd meet anyone.

And people would come at me with a certain amount of preconceptions

because my father was prime minister

and there's a known factor around me

that getting them to a place

where they could actually be comfortable in being themselves

quickly became something that I wanted to see and do

in all my interactions.

AG: Mission accomplished.

JT: There you go.

AG: This is something of the family business.

You got to see the Prime Minister job up close long before you took it.

What surprised you the most that you didn't expect?

JT: Yeah, my first 13 years of life growing up with my dad in this role

was the international summits, was the speeches,

was the people coming up to him in restaurants

for the rest of his life saying,

"Thank you for doing this." "Thank you for doing that."

And it was always the big things.

The little things were the things I didn't see as a kid that really matter.

When I first got elected, I wasn't leader,

I wasn't even on the government side.

I was just a simple backbench MP

discovering the ways in which being a community's representative,

being their voice here in Ottawa,

being in service of people,

even if you're not in government, even if you're not in charge,

actually makes a difference.

And discovering that

made this job a lot more like what I knew professionally,

which was being a teacher.

It's those little moments,

those engagements, that explaining things,

empowering people that was key for me.

AG: So it almost sounds like there are aspects of the job

that are better than you expected.

JT: As a little kid, you know, I wanted to, I guess,

either be a fireman or an astronaut or a prime minister like my dad.

But, you know, they were all unreal.

And then I went through a long stretch of not wanting to go into politics

because I knew how different I was from my father,

and he was a very successful prime minister.

And it wasn't until later that I realized that there was a path

through being a teacher, around process, around people,

around connection with people.

It was very different than my father's more intellectual approach to politics.

AG: How do you deal with the fact that no matter what you do at work,

millions of people are going to disapprove of your decisions

and probably dislike you as a person?

JT: First of all, I mean,

the line is, no matter what you're doing, you know,

30 percent like you, 30 percent hate you,

40 percent are completely indifferent to the fact that you even exist, right?

I mean, you don't get into this job because you want to be popular

or you want to be liked, or if you do,

you're in for a rude awakening

because that's not what this job is all about.

That's not what this life is all about.

This is about service.

This is about feeling you can actually make a difference

that is meaningful in people's lives,

in the direction of the country,

in how your country has an impact on the world.

The fact that there are people who approve of what I'm doing,

there are people who disapprove of what I'm doing

is all par for the course.

And if nobody had any opinion on me, positive or negative,

it would be that I wasn't doing anything consequential.

So you do need to have a little bit of pushback if I'm, you know,

raising taxes on the wealthiest as I am right now.

If they weren't pushing back, I'd say, OK,

maybe I'm not doing it enough.

But the other piece, on a personal level,

I was about seven years old the first time I remember

some kid coming up to me in the schoolyard and saying,

"My parents didn't vote for your dad.

So I don't like you."

And I had to sort of adjust to the fact that that had nothing to do with me,

who I was.

It was everything to do with external perceptions

and everything to do with them and I had to learn to put that aside.

But then a few years later,

as I got a little more active at going with my dad to different places,

I'd go to these rallies where everybody loved him

and therefore everybody loved me.

And I also had to learn to put that aside, that it was no realer.

The people who loved me automatically

than the people who disliked me automatically.

And getting a really strong sense of self and being able,

when you get criticisms or congratulations,

to reach below the emotions of that and say, OK, well,

what is the nugget of useful criticism that I can actually take constructively,

even if it's not meant that way in the slightest?

Did I really go a little too far here,

or did I really not take into account the concerns of this community there?

Well, certainly reasonable criticism out there,

whether it's constructive or not, you can find that.

And similarly, if people say, "Oh, you're awesome,"

Why exactly?

Is it just how it makes you feel?

So being able to sort of detach yourself from people's perceptions of you

is really, really important in a job that is, you know,

requires a certain amount of popularity for people to vote for you,

but you cannot allow that to drive you or even define you.

AG: What do you say to yourself

when the criticism feels particularly painful?

Is it just, "Well, that's my avatar they're reacting to, it's not me?"

JT: More recently, when I see people, you know,

really over the top in the kind of the hatred and polarization

and toxicity that is just par for the course

in so many democracies now,

my instant pivot is, OK

so what happened in their lives to lead them to that place?

I try to go for a place of empathy, of, well, what can I do,

even if they'll never give me credit for it

to make sure that their life is less bad?

And sometimes I can't imagine how to do it.

But other times, like I have to go to a place of reminding myself

and it's not hard because it’s in me.

I'm the prime minister of 40 million Canadians,

not just the millions who voted for me.

I'm for everyone.

And therefore, no matter how much they dislike me,

I still have to try and think about what I can do

to make sure that them or their kids or their community is doing better.

And that exercise sort of detaches a little bit

from what their actual opinion is of me.

It gets harder when it goes to my family or some of my team members,

where I'm not as able to detach it, because that's, you know,

you're coming after my people.

Come after me all you're like, I put my name on a sign,

I'm standing here for election, I'm doing it.

I'm welcoming it.

But for others, it makes it harder.

AG: Now I'm curious about just the confidence it takes

to want to do this job in the first place.

It used to seem to me to be something that required

an unusual level of ambition,

maybe even arrogance or narcissism, some would say.

And then over time, I've started to see

you just have to think that you could do this job better

than the other viable candidates.

You don't have to think that you're capable of doing a perfect job

running one of the most powerful countries on earth.

How do you think about that tightrope?

JT: I guess it's not something I think about too much now,

because I spent so much time thinking about it over the years.

I only saw myself getting into politics,

you know, when I was younger, I thought,

OK, maybe I do politics one day,

but it'd be much later,

once I've gotten out from under the weight of my last name

and historical expectations.

And, you know, once I've proven myself in business or written a few books

or started a school or done things that are really meaningful,

and then I can go in on my first name.

But in my 30s, I was very much a youth activist.

I was doing environmental stuff.

I was a teacher through my 20s.

And I learned from working with young people,

who had no connection to my father,

that I had things worth saying.

And as I sort of got, you know, pulled in, a little bit indirectly,

into partisan politics,

I realized, I'm actually good at the things my dad wasn't great at,

which is the campaigning, the handshaking, everything.

I learned that it was very much my maternal grandfather's side,

who was, Jimmy Sinclair, was a great retail politician, he loved it.

As I discovered that I was good at pulling people together

and mobilizing them and organizing and inspiring

and building a great team,

I got more and more into politics

and every step of the way,

I was somewhat hesitant to take the next step.

My father's party, the Liberal Party, reached a total nadir,

like, we were down to 35 seats in the 300-plus seat House.

We were on our way to oblivion when I came in as leader,

and it was an opportunity to rebuild from scratch.

But then as I looked around at who else could be leader,

I realized, oh wait, nobody gets how hard the work is going to be

or the work that needs to be done,

and I can sort of see that clearly.

So I'm sort of going to be the one who does it,

because it's going to take an incredible amount of work

that I think I can do better than others.

And turns out, I was pretty good at it

in terms of rebuilding the party.

AG: You mentioned feeling hesitant to take a leadership role.

Some of our PhD students at Wharton have shown that a feeling of reluctance,

of saying, "I'm not sure if I want this"

actually can lead to more effective behavior

when you're at the helm,

because you don't think you know all the answers.

You don't think you have to make every decision yourself,

and it may actually lead you to empower other people more

to learn from other people around you.

JT: Oh, yeah, no, absolutely.

Being a good leader,

if I was going to be any good in this job,

I had to bring around the most brilliant,

successful, smartest, most driven people I possibly could to build the team.

And I sort of understand that I come to it

with an ability to bring people together

and mobilize them and create a big vision.

But leadership for me was never

about being the one at the top of the pyramid,

you know, barking out orders.

A good leader is someone who's figuring out

how every member of the team can be at peak performance

in the most important moments,

and that idea of lifting up everyone around you

is the way I sort of fell into this leadership role.

AG: One of the risks of surrounding yourself

with people you think are smarter than you

is that sometimes you feel like an impostor and you wonder,

do I really belong here?

Has that affected you over the last eight years at all?

JT: I was very aware of the impostor syndrome all my life.

As a teacher, I kept waiting for someone to knock on the door

and say, "This was a terrible mistake, we're pulling you."

Or any time I was giving a speech on environmental responsibility,

I was expecting someone,

"You never actually finished your graduate studies in environmental geography.

What are you doing?"

I was very aware of that.

The first day I walked onto Parliament Hill as an elected MP,

after what was a very tough election for our party,

but it was good for me in 2008,

I searched for that impostor syndrome.

I said, OK, here it's going to come.

And it wasn't there.

And for the first time in my life,

and I think it was because I worked so hard on the ground for the two years

to sort of overcome people's name recognition expectations of me,

like, all my opponents then and pretty much since,

have said, "Oh, it's just an accident of history

that he's in the role he is.

He's expecting everyone to vote for him because of his last name.

And that'll catch up with him sooner or later."

Or, “He won’t get elected the first time.”

And I worked the ground,

I went door to door right across the district.

I got to all the different community organizations,

and I earned their support in that election.

And people actually came out,

put a little X beside my name and said,

"No, we definitely want you to go."

And I'm like, OK.

People actually chose me through a process of saying,

we're trusting you to be our voice in Ottawa,

and we're making that choice deliberately.

And I'd also run in a very authentic way about who I was and what I was.

And I felt that people knew what they were getting

when they voted for me in my district.

And so I didn't feel that impostor syndrome,

and I haven't since.

I keep saying, look, I will continue to serve.

I'll continue to do the best I can

and try to do it in as authentic a way as possible,

way that is true to me with all the strengths and flaws

that I have as any individual does.

AG: Well, what you're describing

tracks with the evidence of impostor thoughts --

JT: I'm so glad to hear that.

AG You would otherwise have to change the way that you think.

JT: Because that's what psychologists do so well,

they make people change the way they think.

AG: We do that for a living and it always works.

JT: You're so successful, exactly, exactly.

AG: Thank you for respecting my profession

every bit as much as I admire yours, Prime Minister.

I think that, in all seriousness,

one of the surprising benefits of those impostor thoughts

is they create a gap between what you think other people expect of you

and what you feel capable of.

And that leaves you motivated to close the gap, which you did.

Do you ever worry that not feeling like an impostor makes you complacent?

JT: No. There's no ability to be complacent in this job.

Not when you're still charged up about it.

The challenges, particularly in this time,

that continue to get thrown at us,

all the range of crises that are hitting right now all around the world,

our democracies, but also our countries,

combined with all the steady progressive work

that we need to do of, you know, lifting kids out of poverty

and helping with 10-dollar-a-day child care

and delivering the fight against climate change

and creating good jobs through a greener economy.

And, you know, working with reconciliation with Indigenous people.

There are so many big things we have to keep doing

while there's war in Ukraine, conflict in the Middle East,

you know, climate change hitting the world,

backsliding of democracies, foreign interference, you know,

rise of autocracies, there's all this going on.

There's no complacency in this job.

AG: You're describing some of the many things

that make this one of the hardest jobs on earth.

And it's unbelievable to me that it comes with so little training.

But here you are, doing this job every day.

How do you deal with the ongoing thoughts about,

"Do I want to keep doing this?"

I know you've gone on record

saying you think about quitting approximately every day.

JT: Yeah, I think that's part of a process

where if you're going to be honest about doing a job like this,

that has the responsibilities and the impact that it has,

you have to check,

maybe not every day,

but you have to check that you're up for it,

that you're all in every given day

because people out there,

the 40 million people that I am directly responsible for serving

deserve a leader that is focused on them with everything they have

every single day

and that sort of check on, you know, am I able to do that?

Am I motivating my team to do that?

Am I driving that forward?

Am I fully all in,

even though I've been in it for a few years,

even though it's harder now than it was before,

even though my opponent's getting traction for all the wrong reasons.

All those different things, if they're enough to make you say

"yeah, no, maybe" then you shouldn't be doing it.

I learned this being a teacher

where I would, you know, work hard all day,

come home absolutely exhausted,

but so excited about what the next day was going to bring.

When you find a job that charges you up like that,

where you are deeply excited about doing it,

no matter how hard it gets,

and aware of the awesome responsibility and impact that you get to have,

then it's sort of intellectually honest to check yourself,

check in with yourself regularly.

AG: How often do you actually think about quitting?

JT: These days, not at all.

There was a moment last year,

as I was facing some difficult moments in my marriage

where I really wondered, OK, is there a path?

And I just realized that that's not me.

There is so much to do still.

And the stakes are ...

higher in some ways for our democracies than ever before.

The need to try and hold things together in a rational discourse

around doing things that are meaningful

and are going to nudge the arc of the moral universe forward

matters so much

that I couldn't be the person I am,

the fighter I am,

and say, yeah, no, this particular fight I'm walking away from.

No, I can't do that yet.

AG: You look like you're having fun in your job

more often than I would expect, given all the stressors of the work.

But I also, I don't want leaders to have too much fun.

And I think about some evidence

that guilt-prone leaders are actually more effective

because they're more likely to think about mistakes they made

and try to right wrongs as opposed to,

you know, just sleeping well every night.

Talk to me about what guilt feels like in this role,

because I don't like being responsible for four people, let alone 40 million.

JT: Anytime you see me having fun,

I'm connecting with people.

Like, I'm doing things where people are having genuine interactions

and that's real.

The work I do here at this desk, the debates in chamber,

the things like that, that can be a bit of a grind.

I mean, that's sort of the solitary work

or the teamwork around the cabinet table,

you know, figuring things out, wrestling with big decisions and stuff.

That's not always fun.

You've always got to think about the opportunity cost,

what the consequences are,

and just being aware of the weight of these decisions is fine,

but also not putting on yourself a level of ...

Expectations to be perfect all the time.

I mean, so many politicians spend all their time saying,

"I can't make any mistakes."

If you can be authentic,

and the one thing that I tend to fall back on is,

I think Canadians have a pretty good sense of where my values are,

what I'm trying to fight for.

I'm trying to build a more inclusive,

positive society in which everyone has a fair chance

and where, I'm sure, do some suboptimal things in this policy or that.

But when a crisis hits, when a challenge hits,

I'll, as we all do,

revert to our core values and our core instincts.

I think that's important.

In regards to sleep, that's one of my rules.

I sleep about eight or nine hours every night.

I exercise as much as I can,

I eat well, I play well with my kids, with friends,

you know, getting that balance of being a real person and not saying,

for these years that I am prime minister,

I have to be only prime minister and focus only on that.

I mean, that's a route to madness.

It can still be me that finds joy even after difficult moments

and getting that balance

of allowing myself to be a real whole person

with good days and bad days and successes and challenges

I think grounds and uplifts you at the same time.

AG: I imagine one aspect of your job

that's harder now than it used to be

is getting people to speak truth to power.

You come into office,

you were peer with a lot of the people that you've brought in,

and now anybody you hire has to look at the prime minister.

How do you make it safe for people to speak up?

JD: I want to focus on making sure people were their community’s voice in Ottawa,

in Parliament,

instead of being Parliament's voice in their communities.

We sit in 338 seats in the House of Commons,

where each of us, including me,

represents a very specific district.

And our responsibility is to vote

and speak for the people,

our peers who elected us to come and sit in this House.

And anchoring my team,

all the MPs,

in their responsibility to speak for their community,

even if that's, you know,

concerns with something I'm doing

is really, really important.

That actually leads not to negative consequences for them,

but to me saying, OK, because I heard you on this one,

as we move forward on this policy

that I know isn't going to be really popular

in some parts of your community,

I'm going to say that I know it's not going to be popular,

or we're going to bring in this mitigation,

or we're going to try and adjust this,

and creating a space where people can share with me their concerns

in a way that I'm not going to fly off the handle at them

or belittle them,

just basic interpersonal ability to take criticism

and, you know, put people at ease

when they're telling you something they think you don't want to hear,

which, maybe you don't,

is part of being a leader that actually pulls together diversity.

And you cannot run or serve a country like Canada

unless you're ready to fully embrace diversity.

If you can't model that amongst your team,

then how are you going to do right

by a country that is as variegated as we are?

AG: Well, I'd love to know what your team is pushing you to improve at.

How are you trying to grow as a leader?

What feedback or notes have you gotten lately?

JT: I've been on a kick lately of just saying,

"Look, if we could just explain what this policy actually is,

if we could show the charts and the graphs,

and if I could just sit down and talk through

why this is the right policy

and how it's actually going to help,

and everyone will get it and they'll agree and then we can move on,

and there won't be this debate over whether putting a price on pollution

that puts more money back in people's pockets is a good idea or not,

because everyone will see.

If I could just explain it enough and use the right charts."

People are like, "Boss, you're not a teacher anymore."

My team, my MPs will come to me and say, "No, no,

we just need you to get out there and talk about the world we're building

and reassure people that you've got the plan

and you're confident in it

and you're projecting it,

and we're going to get to that better place,

and you're going to reassure them,

and you're going to connect with them

and stop it with the explaining."

And that's one that I've had a lot of trouble with.

And I think my team finally said, "OK, fine,

we'll make you do lots of podcasts instead,"

where I do get to do, as one of our mayors once famously put,

politics in full sentences.

AG: I have a clear vision of what the meeting looked like

after you left the room.

"PM is trying to show PowerPoint again.

How do we get around this? Podcasts!"

JT: Exactly, exactly.

It was pretty much it, I said no,

I even wrote a script for an explainer video where I can do this.

And it was like, "God, OK, we'll try."

And they've done little bits of it and some of them work a bit,

but it's still me trying to be a teacher,

as opposed to me being the leader

that is telling the story of where Canada goes.

AG: Well, that, I think, is a good segue to the lightning round.

Are you ready for this?

I have a bunch of rapid-fire questions.

First one is, who's a leader you admire who's no longer alive?

JT: My dad.

AG: That's an easy one.

Anyone you're not related to that you would add?

JT: Lincoln's appeal to the better angels of our natures

is one that I always go back to

as he handled a divided country

in the most challenging ways.

You know, I think to him, every now and then.

AG: I feel a little bad that you chose an American leader.

JT: No, you shouldn't.

America has provided some of the best leaders

the world has ever seen.

AG: OK, so one of my all-time favorite Canadian contests

was to come up with an equivalent

of "as American as apple pie" for Canada.

JT: And the answer in Canada was

"as Canadian as possible under the circumstances."

AG: You have done your homework.

JT: Yeah, it's a classic Gzowski piece.

AG: What does that mean to you?

JT: Oh, God, that's a good question.

I think it means that we're people who understand compromise

and reality.

That things don't always go towards our ideal.

There's no manifest destiny like there is in the United States.

It's a sense of, you know, we're going to figure this out.

We're going to roll up our sleeves,

we're going to figure out how to get along,

and solve the problems given the tools we have.

AG: Basically it's a slogan for Canadian agreeableness

and adaptability.

JT: You know, saying sorry after someone bumps into you

is a way of, you know, easing that dynamic as well.

AG: Touche.

What's the worst piece of leadership advice you've been given?

JT: Try to be more like your dad.

AG: Why was that bad advice?

JT: Because I'm not him.

And people say, "I like the way you did that,

It was just like your dad."

I'm like, "I have to be careful of that."

Growing up with parents who are very successful or take up a lot of space,

you know, forces you to be very deliberate

about what you're choosing to take from them,

what you're choosing not to.

And then you have to deal with all the expectations.

All my life, people said, "Your dad was prime minister,

Do you want to be prime minister, too?"

My kids are going through it now, too.

"Two generations.

Are you going to be the third generation?"

And it's like, "I'm a teenager.

What the hell do I know?" Right?

And learning how to be grounded in who and what you are

and unapologetic about it

and not trying to be something you're not ever

is hugely important.

AG: What's something you've rethought lately?

JT: Rethinking all the forces that ended up leaving Canadians ...

Divided or grumpy post-pandemic.

During the pandemic, we scrambled to try and do everything we could.

We delivered a 500-dollar-a-week income replacement for low-income people.

We brought in a 75 percent wage subsidy that kept people on the payrolls.

We encouraged and, you know,

created conditions in which everyone was encouraged to get vaccination.

We had a higher double-vaccination rate than just about any of our peer countries.

We had a less bad pandemic than just about any of our peer countries.

And yet, some of the lingering impacts of those policies

continue to divide Canadians.

And I'm still trying to figure out how to bring Canadians back together.

And it's something I'm grappling with.

AG: What's a book you read recently that you loved?

JT: "The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue,"

which is a lovely story of a young woman who was born in, like,

17th-century France,

who made a Faustian bargain and lived forever.

But anyone she met would instantly forget her the second she walked past.

And what kind of a life is that when you actually can't have a lasting impact

on anyone around you?

I read almost only fiction on my downtime

because I read so much nonfiction for work.

AG: What's the question you have for me?

JT: Well, you give advice to leaders of all different types

on how to adjust

and how to lead today,

given social media, given post-pandemic world, all that.

Would you give the same advice or different advice to political leaders

as you would to other types of leaders

and what would be your best advice

on how to create cohesive communities

in this time of division?

AG: I think I'd say both.

I give some of the same advice,

because I think there are aspects of leadership

that generalize regardless of what environment you're in.

At the end of the day, you have to make good decisions.

You have to get people to respect your integrity and your competence

and your care and want to follow you.

And so I guess my most basic message to leaders in any environment

would be put your mission above your ego.

That's an easy one.

Things I would say differently to political leaders,

although I actually think

that the business world has become more like this in recent years,

our political leaders have to care a lot more about constituents

and their opinions and their approval ratings.

And I think that now we're actually seeing

that leaders are facing that kind of pressure in other environments as well.

In terms of your question about how to bring people together

and create community,

I don't think anybody has easy answers.

And as a social scientist,

I've been wracking my brain on it for the last few years

and reading everything I could find.

And I think probably the most useful thing that I've come across

is a lot of people are very quick to slip into binary bias:

good versus bad, us versus them.

Pick your least favorite version of it.

The way that we normally try to fight that is we try to build up,

"we're good, they're bad."

And I think a better solution is to say we actually need a door number three.

We need to ask, OK, if these two views are dividing people,

what's the third point of view

that actually the silent majority might hold?

And that seems to me at least to be a good starting point

for thinking through this.

JT: No, listen, I love that.

And I've been reading on a phenomenon

that says the majority actually starts to think it's in the minority now

because those minorities are so loud, you know,

there's so much noise out there that people start questioning

that goodness and thoughtfulness of the silent majority.

I think I'm someone who got into politics to try and pull people together.

And it is so easy

to fall into sort of

divisive rhetoric

or ...

or even position.

Then you have to be careful with this, too.

I mean, I made the decision early on in my leadership

that I was only going to have pro-choice MPs.

That members of Parliament needed to be willing to stand up

for a woman's right to choose.

And a lot of people accused me of being divisive on that

because I was excluding, you know,

parts of the population from being able to run for our party.

And traditionally our party had had both sides of that debate,

both pro-choice and anti-choice.

And that is a position that,

on the one hand, is somewhat divisive, right?

Because I am saying, no,

you don't get to take away a woman's right to choose.

But at the same time, it's one that I believe

is the right position in absolute terms.

It's empowering an individual woman to make whatever choice she wants.

If she wants to be anti-abortion, she can do that.

If she wants to start a family, like, she gets that choice.

But it's portrayed as a binary situation

that has caused me to really think about the nature

of you know, taking a clear position on a thorny issue

versus trying to accommodate as many different viewpoints.

And obviously, in many situations, you want to bring people together

on, you know, protecting the environment is good.

And, you know, growing the society for everyone is good.

But sometimes there are sharp lines to be drawn.

And navigating the difference in those moments

is something that is fraught with extra peril

in a time of polarization

and such amplification of divisions online.

AG: When you navigate these kinds of decisions now with your team,

how do you actually go about thinking through the different options?

What does your decision process actually look like?

JT: Well, I try to anchor myself in trying to find out

what the actual right decision is, first and foremost.

What is the best science

or the most up-to-date science on it?

What is the consensus?

What are the experts saying?

Can we find experts to disagree with each other

and try and pull from them their points of disagreement,

to find if there is a position

that actually you can build some sort of consensus around.

And then you look at, OK,

now that we know what the optimal answer is,

does this fit in with both where people are

and where people are willing to go?

And, you know, does it fit into the rest of what we're doing?

Because, you know, you could have the absolute right answer

for something that is, yes, the absolute intellectually,

academically, best solution for a given problem.

But if you look at it and say,

but Canadians won't be able to support it,

it's too much of a step, it's too much of a leap,

then can you figure out a half-measure that nudges us in the right direction?

So next year or next mandate or next leader

or next prime minister can complete that work.

And that's the art of the possible.

One of my favorite prime ministers,

other than my dad, was Wilfrid Laurier.

He was turn of the century.

He was a French Canadian, our first French Canadian prime minister

ruling over a majority English Canada.

And he understood the need not to just anchor in your own identity

and be unflinching on it.

But that political courage actually sometimes involves

and usually involves compromise and putting water in your wine

and finding common ground

and bringing together a cohesive vision that we can all get behind,

even if it's not optimal for either side.

And that idea

of trying to find the best way to come together in our differences,

to agree on a path forward,

continues to be the elusive goal of Canadian politics.

AG: That's a nice challenge, actually, to rethink compromise.

I've long been allergic to it

because it seems like both people are leaving unhappy.

But I think what you're saying is that you actually care

about the other person's happiness, too.

JT: Well, politics shouldn't be win-lose because fundamentally,

we all sort of agree on the same things.

People should have good jobs and give meaning to their lives.

They should have opportunities to advance.

They should have a clean environment.

Everyone should have a chance to succeed.

We should be, you know, not at war with neighbors

or people on the other side of the world.

Everyone sort of knows what the ideals are.

Lots of disagreements about how to best organize ourselves to get there.

But the more you can get down to those basic principles

of let's try and figure this out together,

and can we find a way that nudges us forward in a meaningful way,

well, that does require finding that middle ground,

that common ground.

AG: I feel like most of the time we get asked,

what's the advice you would give to your younger self?

But I want to flip the question and say,

if you can give advice to Prime Minister Trudeau

a year or a decade down the road,

what guidance would you give to the wiser, older version of you?

JT: Be ...

Be patient with yourself.

Allow that sometimes it takes time to get to the right answer.

And "perfect is the enemy of the good"

matters as a principle.

That taking meaningful steps forward

are sometimes more transformative and lasting

than trying to change everything all at once.

AG: Thank you.

JT: What a great conversation, thank you, Adam.