Stephen Fry: "An Uppy-Downy, Mood-Swingy Kind of Guy" | Big Think

Summary

In this insightful transcript, Stephen Fry shares his personal experiences with bipolar disorder, discussing his diagnosis, the challenges of living with the condition, and the societal stigma attached to mental health. He compares moods to weather, uncontrollable and real, and addresses the highs and lows of manic depressive episodes. Fry also touches on the complexities of medicating children with bipolar symptoms, highlighting the potential risks and benefits of early intervention.

Takeaways

• 📝 Stephen Fry was first diagnosed with a possible mood disorder at fifteen, but only learned about it later in life.
• 🌈 He describes his condition as psychothymic, also known as 'bipolar light' in America, which is a milder form of bipolar disorder.
• ☁️ Fry compares mood to weather, emphasizing that it is real and uncontrollable, and should be acknowledged rather than denied.
• 🔄 Bipolar disorder involves both depressive and manic phases, with the manic phase characterized by high energy, optimism, and sometimes reckless behavior.
• 🚫 The public often finds the manic phase more difficult to handle than the depressive phase due to its disruptive nature.
• 💔 Fry has had several suicide attempts, highlighting the severity of the depressive phase in bipolar disorder.
• 💊 He discusses the use of substances like cocaine and alcohol as a means to self-medicate and manage his mood swings.
• 🎬 Stephen Fry made a documentary called 'The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive' to explore his condition and raise awareness.
• 🤔 He addresses the stigma associated with mental health and the difficulty society has in discussing and accepting such conditions.
• 👶 The script touches on the controversial topic of medicating children with bipolar disorder, noting the potential risks and benefits.
• 🧠 There is a debate about the impact of early intervention with medication on a child's developing brain, with some arguing it prevents further issues, while others see it as potentially harmful.

Q & A

When was Stephen Fry first diagnosed with a possible mood disorder?

Stephen Fry was first diagnosed with a possible mood disorder when he was about fifteen, although he was not aware of it at the time.

What is the term Stephen Fry uses to describe his mood disorder?

Stephen Fry refers to his mood disorder as 'psychothymic,' which is also known as 'bipolar light' in America.

How does Stephen Fry compare mood to weather?

Stephen Fry compares mood to weather by stating that both are real and cannot be controlled or wished away, and that one must learn to treat moods like the weather.

What does Stephen Fry believe about the relationship between depression and external circumstances?

Stephen Fry believes that depression is not about reason or external circumstances, but rather something that happens internally, similar to weather.

How does Stephen Fry describe the manic phase of bipolar disorder?

Stephen Fry describes the manic phase as a state of elevated mood where one can be grandiose, extremely optimistic, creative, energetic, and may engage in behaviors such as going without sleep, being sexually promiscuous, or becoming a shopping addict.

What challenges does Stephen Fry face when dealing with the manic phase of his bipolar disorder?

Stephen Fry mentions that the manic phase can be frustrating for people around him, as he may be unmanageably annoying, constantly talking, and unable to sit still.

What are some of the risks associated with the manic phase of bipolar disorder according to Stephen Fry?

Stephen Fry states that the risks of the manic phase include the potential for dangerous behavior, such as substance abuse, and the inevitable crash that follows the high.

How did Stephen Fry cope with his mood swings before understanding his condition?

Before understanding his condition, Stephen Fry coped with his mood swings by using substances like cocaine and alcohol to intervene with his moods and energy levels.

What impact did Stephen Fry's bipolar disorder have on his career?

Stephen Fry's bipolar disorder had a significant impact on his career, with instances of him running away from commitments and having to confront his diagnosis publicly.

What is Stephen Fry's view on the stigma surrounding mental health disorders?

Stephen Fry believes that the stigma surrounding mental health disorders is a major problem, as people are uncomfortable discussing it and often avoid those who suffer from such conditions.

What is Stephen Fry's opinion on medicating children for bipolar disorder?

Stephen Fry finds the practice of medicating young children for bipolar disorder to be tricky and expresses concern about the impact of powerful drugs on a developing brain.

Outlines

00:00

🌦️ Understanding Bipolar Disorder

Stephen Fry discusses his experience with bipolar disorder, initially diagnosed as a teenager. He describes the condition as a mood disorder, akin to weather, which cannot be controlled or reasoned away. Fry emphasizes the importance of recognizing the disorder and treating mood swings like changes in weather. He also highlights the dual nature of the disorder, encompassing both depressive and manic phases, each with its own set of challenges and behaviors. The manic phase can be characterized by grandiosity, extreme optimism, and high energy, while the depressive phase can lead to feelings of worthlessness and self-loathing. Fry also touches on the societal stigma associated with mental health disorders and the difficulty in managing the manic phase, which can be more frustrating for those around the individual than the depressive phase.

05:05

💊 Medication and Mental Health Stigma

Stephen Fry continues his discussion on bipolar disorder, focusing on his personal struggles with substance abuse as a coping mechanism. He admits to using cocaine and alcohol to manage his mood swings, which he describes as a temporary fix that ultimately leads to further complications. Fry also delves into the broader issue of mental health stigma, noting how society often reacts with discomfort or avoidance when mental health conditions are mentioned. He shares his experience of making a documentary about manic depression, which he believes helped to break through some of the stigma and increase understanding. Fry then addresses the controversial topic of medicating children with bipolar disorder, expressing concern over the use of powerful drugs like Ritalin and antipsychotics in young children. He acknowledges the potential benefits of early intervention but also the risks associated with the developing brain, highlighting the complexity and controversy surrounding this issue.

Keywords

💡Bipolar Disorder

Bipolar disorder, also known as manic-depressive illness, is a mental health condition characterized by extreme mood swings that include emotional highs (mania or hypomania) and lows (depression). In the script, Stephen Fry discusses his experience with bipolar disorder, highlighting how it affects his mood and behavior, and he emphasizes the importance of recognizing it as a mood disorder akin to weather, which is beyond one's control.

💡Psychothymic

Psychothymic is a term used to describe a milder form of bipolar disorder, often referred to as 'bipolar light' in America. It is characterized by less severe mood swings than classic bipolar disorder. Stephen Fry mentions that he believes his condition is psychothymic, suggesting a less intense experience of mood swings compared to full-blown bipolar disorder.

💡Mania

Mania is a state of abnormally elevated or irritable mood, which is a key feature of bipolar disorder. Fry describes mania as an elevated mood that can lead to grandiose thinking, extreme optimism, and high energy levels. He also mentions behaviors associated with mania, such as not needing sleep, being sexually promiscuous, or engaging in compulsive shopping.

💡Depression

Depression, in the context of bipolar disorder, refers to a state of low mood and aversion to activity that can affect a person's thoughts, behavior, feelings, and sense of well-being. Fry discusses the depressive phase as a part of bipolar disorder, noting that it is as real and uncontrollable as weather, and it is not a result of external circumstances but an internal condition.

💡Mood Swings

Mood swings are rapid changes in mood from one extreme to another, which is a defining characteristic of bipolar disorder. Fry uses the analogy of weather to describe his mood swings, emphasizing that they are real, uncontrollable, and not necessarily linked to external events.

💡Stigma

Stigma refers to the negative attitudes and discrimination associated with mental health disorders. Fry talks about the stigma surrounding mental health disorders and how people often avoid discussing them, which can further isolate those who suffer from such conditions.

💡Ritalin

Ritalin is a medication commonly used to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Fry mentions the use of Ritalin and other powerful antipsychotic drugs in the treatment of children diagnosed with bipolar disorder, raising concerns about the potential risks and ethical considerations of medicating young children.

💡Suicide

Suicide is the act of intentionally causing one's own death, often associated with severe depression. Fry discusses his personal experiences with suicide attempts, highlighting the severity of depression as a component of bipolar disorder and the need for understanding and support.

💡Cocaine

Cocaine is a powerful stimulant drug that can cause intense but temporary feelings of happiness and energy. Fry admits to using cocaine and alcohol as a way to cope with his mood swings and the challenges of bipolar disorder, illustrating the common but harmful practice of self-medication among those struggling with mental health issues.

💡Dick Cavett

Dick Cavett is a renowned talk show host known for his work in the 1960s and 1970s. Fry mentions having dinner with Cavett and discusses how Cavett's career was affected by his struggle with depression, emphasizing the broader impact of mental health on professional and personal life.

💡Mental Health

Mental health refers to the state of an individual's psychological and emotional well-being. Throughout the script, Fry discusses the importance of acknowledging and addressing mental health issues, particularly in the context of bipolar disorder, and the need for societal acceptance and support.

Highlights

Stephen Fry was first diagnosed with a possible bipolar condition at age 15, but only learned this later in life.

Fry identifies his condition as psychothymic, also known as bipolar light in America, which is a milder form of bipolar disorder.

Fry compares moods to weather, emphasizing their reality and uncontrollability.

Depression is not a choice or a result of external circumstances, but an internal condition like asthma or measles.

Bipolar disorder involves both depressive and manic phases, with the manic phase characterized by extreme optimism, creativity, and energy.

Manic phases can lead to risky behaviors such as promiscuity, shopping addiction, and substance abuse.

Fry discusses the frustration and danger of manic phases for both the individual and those around them.

Fry had multiple suicide attempts due to the severity of his depression.

Substance use, including cocaine and alcohol, was a coping mechanism for Fry to manage his moods.

Fry's substance use was a way to avoid confronting his moods and the inevitable crash.

A mid-nineties crisis led Fry to confront his bipolar diagnosis and seek medical help.

Fry created a documentary, 'The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive', to explore his condition and raise awareness.

Fry emphasizes the importance of societal acceptance and understanding of mental health to reduce stigma and improve coping strategies.

Fry discusses the challenges of diagnosing and medicating children with bipolar disorder, noting the potential risks and benefits.

Some experts argue for early intervention with medication to prevent the brain from developing harmful pathways.

Fry expresses concern about the use of powerful antipsychotic drugs in young children, given the potential impact on brain development.

Transcripts

Question: Can you discuss your  experience with bipolar disease?

Stephen Fry: Yes. I was first diagnosed actually  not to my knowledge as being possibly bipolar when  

I was about fifteen. I didn’t know this until much  later when I made a documentary about my life as  

a manic depressive or someone with bipolar  disorder, whatever you choose to call it,  

an uppy-downy, mood-swingy kind of guy. In fact,  technically I believe the correct diagnosis for  

my condition is psychothymic, which is like  also known as bipolar light in America, which  

is rather nice and makes it sound like a variety  of cola, but bipolar disorder is a mood disorder  

rather than a personality disorder such as that  might mean to anybody, but I think we all kind  

of get what that is. To me mood is the equivalent  of weather. Weather is real. That’s the important  

thing to remember about weather. It is absolutely  real. When it rains it rains. It is wet. You get  

wet. There is no question about it. It’s also  true about weather that you can’t control it.  

You can’t say if I wish hard enough it won’t rain  and it’s equally true that if the weather is bad  

one day it will get better and what I had to learn  was to treat my moods like the weather. On the one  

hand denying that they were there and saying  I can’t… I’m not really depressed. Why should  

I be depressed? I’ve got enough money. I’ve got a  job. People like me. There is no to be depressed.  

That’s at stupid as saying there is no reason  to have asthma or there is no reason to have the  

measles. You know you’ve got it. It’s there. It’s  not about reason. You don’t get depressed because  

bad things happen to you. That’s getting pissed  off and annoyed. That’s reasonable. Someone hits  

you in the face you go ow, you know that’s… but  depression is something that happens like weather  

to you inside you and it’s not about… It could  be triggered by something unfortunate, but it  

isn’t… You know it’s not enough to talk yourself  out of it by saying but I shouldn’t be depressed  

because I’ve got people who are nice to me, which  is frustrating for people outside. They go, “Don’t  

be depressed.” “Everyone loves you.” “You’re  really happy.” “You’ve got a good life.” I know.  

That is what is so depressing. I can’t help it.  So but once you… It’s not a solution, but anyway,  

it’s very important at least to get that stage  of it out of the way is to recognize it as a mood  

disorder as something that is akin to weather,  but the nature of manic depression or bipolar  

disorder is it is bipolar. It is two poles. It’s  not just depression. The point is that there  

is this other side to it. You have a depressed  mood. You have an elevated mood that is mania,  

which is the manic side of manic depression and  these are hypomanic or hyper manic states in  

which you can be grandiose. You can be absurdly  extreme in your optimism and your creativity and  

your energy. You can go for ages without sleep.  You can be sexually promiscuous. You can be a  

shopping addict, but people have different ways  in which they’re elevated moods are expressed and  

they talk nineteen to the dozen. They can’t stop  thinking, their mind races. They think they can  

solve the problems of the world. They think they  have a unique insight. It can be a very blissful  

and exciting and extraordinary state of mind to  be in and then comes the crash. The problems of  

it are manifested in tens. One is that people,  most people outside family and friends are more  

annoyed, are more uncomfortable at the manic  phase than the depressed phase. The depressed  

person you can deal with because all they want  to do is just sit there and they want to be in  

dark in the bedroom sleeping and not doing any  work and just hating themselves and as long as  

they’re not you know really considering suicide,  as long as the pain isn’t that bad then you can  

manage them whereas a person in an elevated state  is unmanageably annoying. They won’t stop talking.  

They won’t stop shaking their knees up and down  and getting excited and talking about things and  

changing things and re-tidying rooms and oh, like  that. So you know it can be a very frustrating for  

people around you. At its worst it can be very  dangerous. Obviously suicide is the down side of  

depression. I had several suicide attempts in my  life, but also really and this always sounds like  

a feeble excuse, but it is true. The most natural  way you would attempt to cope with something  

inside you that is affecting your moods and your  energy levels is to intervene with chemicals to  

help and because medical science hasn’t come up  with pharmaceuticals that do particularly well you  

tend to reach for the chemicals that are outside  the Pharma counter, i.e. narcotics and alcohol  

because they can guarantee your mood more or less.  They like, like the condition itself will store up  

a big crash or big reverse, but you just keep  at it and you keep getting drunk, keep getting  

wired and you’ll stave off the inevitable  disaster of being alone with your moods.

So for a long time I was I suppose dependent is  the word on cocaine powder and naturally when you  

take a lot of cocaine powder you tend to take a  lot of alcohol with it as well, so for many years  

really I never went out without at least four or  five grams of cocaine powder on my person and I  

would ingest it intranasally as was the fashion  through the use of some sort of straw or rolled  

up currency note and managed to get by on it.  I never did that when I was working. I didn’t  

do it onstage or on while filming or anything. It  was a way of ending… As soon as you… Because work  

provided its own high, but as soon as I finished  work that was it. I was out. I was in clubs and  

things. I can’t believe it now. I don’t know  how I managed to do it. It’s just extraordinary,  

but I did and anyway, then I had a bit of a  disaster in the mid nineties. I was in a play  

and it just all went wrong and horrible and I ran  for the hills as it were. Well actually I ran for  

Belgium which are not hills at all. I ran for the  low countries and through Belgium went to Germany  

and I was… and so declared missing by the British  for awhile and then I was found and it was all  

very ghastly, but it sort of made me confront the  whole business of this diagnosis and I saw doctors  

and things and they confirmed the diagnosis and  then a few years later when I was back on a more  

even keel and more used to dealing with things  and a little bit more clear about myself I made  

a program about… called Manic Depression and Me  or The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive was the  

proper title. And in which I… It was two one hour  films in which I went around America and England  

actually and talking to people with the problem,  talking to doctors, talking my own history and  

my own condition and it was really interesting  because it was considered something of a success  

this program and something of a breakthrough  and because aside from all the problems I’ve  

spoken about one of the major problems is not the  person who suffers with the disease. It’s with the  

rest of the world and mental health disorder  and its stigma. People just are terrible at  

coping with it, other people. They don’t  like anyone mentioning it if possible.

I had the great pleasure of dinner last  night here in New York with Dick Caveat,  

the talk show host of the sixties and seventies,  a brilliant talk show host. Look him up on YouTube  

if you don’t know his… the show he… I mean he is  absolutely wonderful, but his career was pretty  

much stalled in many ways by his fight with  depression and he has written about it superbly  

and he talked about it and we were chatting  about it last night and it is that problem of  

you know say to someone I’ve got a broken leg  or I’ve got diabetes, particularly if you say  

diabetes and asthma say, which are both chronic  conditions that won’t go away. People go, “Oh,  

do you take insulin or do you take that little  wheezer thing for your asthma?” You go, “Yes.”  

If you say I’ve got a mental health condition  they go, “Oh, do you?” “That’s nice.” And they  

want to be somewhere else. They don’t want to be  anywhere near you and I can understand that. Of  

course I can understand it, but you know that  it’s like six degrees of separation I think.  

You know that you know all six of Kevin Bacon  or whichever. I don’t think that you’re ever  

more than three or four steps away from someone  close to you who has a mental health problem and  

I think the more we accept that it is us, it  is part of being human then the better we are  

because then we can start concentrating on the  things that matter in terms of coping with it.

Question: What do you think about medicating  children who appear manic depressive?

Stephen Fry: It’s a really… It’s a really tricky  business that of diagnosing children. On the one  

hand it is very good if the diagnosis is sound and  you believe in it to spot the early signs of what  

could be a very difficult growing up for a child,  on the other hand, to give Ritalin or powerful  

antipsychotic drugs to a child as young as four  or five. I spoke to a professor of psychiatry at  

Stanford University. He is one of the leading  people in his field who is quite prepared to  

diagnose very young children as being bipolar,  not just ADHD and things that we’re used to in  

children and his point is that non intervention  is not a neutral act. Not giving someone drugs  

when you’ve diagnosed it is in itself allowing  the brain as he would put it to toxify itself,  

that whatever is happening as the brain  is forming if it is forming in a bad way,  

bad pathways, bad neural signals are being sent  and they’re creating bad pathways as it were or  

you know bad demands for you know because  let’s face it. We don’t really understand  

that balance between hormone… if you  like or hormone and neurotransmitter,  

but that’s his argument is that nonintervention  allows the brain to build itself badly,  

but it’s a heck of a thing to give a child as  young as… Well as young as ten or even as young as  

fourteen frankly some of these powerful drugs when  the brain is still growing. I find it tricky and  

certainly in Europe it’s considered outrageous,  but it happens a lot in America, but then you  

have more mad people. No, I mean sorry. You  have a bigger population and better scientists.