Patriarchy Hurts All Of Us — Including Men | Hear Me Out
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of 'Hear Me Out,' host Celeste Headley discusses the complexities of gender identity and politics with Robin Dembroff, a Yale philosophy professor. They challenge the traditional view of patriarchy, arguing that it's not a simple 'men vs. women' dynamic but a pervasive system affecting everyone, including men. The conversation explores how societal expectations of gender perpetuate inequality and harm across various groups, emphasizing the need for a nuanced understanding of gender as a fluid and socially constructed process.
Takeaways
- 🗣️ The podcast 'Hear Me Out' with host Celeste Headley discusses the complexities of gender identity and politics, especially during Pride Month, where there's been backlash against brands for supporting fluid gender identities.
- 🏳️🌈 Gender fluidity is not a new concept and has historical roots going back to the Iron Age and Copper Age, challenging the binary view of gender as simply a tug of war between two sexes.
- 💬 The guest, Robin Dembroff, argues that gender is not a noun but a verb, emphasizing that it is a process of constant social regulation and classification rather than a fixed identity.
- 👥 Dembroff posits that patriarchy is not just about men having power over women but is a system that oppresses everyone, including men, by enforcing rigid and harmful gender standards.
- 🚷 The podcast highlights that gender inequality and harm are systemic issues that affect various groups differently, and should not be oversimplified to a binary men vs. women issue.
- 👮♂️ Dembroff discusses how the concept of 'real men' is used to uphold a small group of elite men in power, often at the expense of others who do not fit these narrow definitions.
- 🤔 The conversation challenges the traditional understanding of patriarchy, suggesting it is not a system that benefits all men but rather a complex structure that perpetuates inequality.
- 🔍 The discussion emphasizes the importance of critically examining the ideas of manhood and womanhood that are internalized and how they affect behavior and societal expectations.
- 👗 The script touches on the backlash faced by public figures like Harry Styles for challenging gender norms, reflecting society's struggle with gender nonconformity.
- 💔 Dembroff shares personal anecdotes to illustrate the fluid and context-dependent nature of gender perception, arguing against the fixed categorization of gender.
- 🌐 The podcast concludes by encouraging listeners to be aware of the gender dynamics at play in everyday life and to question the impact of these dynamics on individuals and society.
Q & A
What is the main argument presented by Robin Dembroff in the podcast 'Hear Me Out'?
-Robin Dembroff argues that the concept of patriarchy is more complex than simply a system that benefits men over women. Instead, they propose that patriarchy is a system designed to keep the most elite and wealthy men in power over everyone else, affecting all genders and social groups differently.
How does Robin Dembroff's perspective on gender differ from traditional views?
-Robin Dembroff suggests that gender is not a noun but a verb, meaning it's an ongoing process of classifying and holding people accountable to certain standards, which can differ across contexts and individuals, rather than a fixed identity assigned at birth.
What is the term 'gendering' as used by Robin Dembroff?
-'Gendering' refers to the process of classifying individuals as either a man or a woman and then holding them to certain societal standards based on those classifications, which are internalized and can vary among different people and contexts.
How does Dembroff explain the impact of gender on men of color and those with disabilities?
-Dembroff explains that historically, ideas of manhood have been weaponized, particularly against men of color and those with disabilities, to push down the majority of men and to justify various forms of discrimination and inequality.
What does Robin Dembroff mean by 'real men'?
-'Real men,' according to Dembroff, refers to a small group of institutional elites who most closely approximate society's most powerful ideas of what men are and should be, and this group is often used to justify and reinforce economic and social inequality.
How does the podcast episode address the issue of sexual harassment in the workplace?
-The episode suggests that sexual harassment and discrimination in the workplace are more complex issues than a simple binary of men versus women, affecting different groups of people in various ways and highlighting the need to look beyond aggregate statistics to understand individual experiences.
What is the historical context of the term 'patriarchy' as discussed in the podcast?
-The term 'patriarchy' originally referred to household power dynamics where the male head of the household held power over women and children. However, in the 1960s, radical feminists expanded the term to describe systemic gender inequality and harm throughout all aspects of society.
How does Robin Dembroff respond to the argument that testosterone makes men more prone to violence?
-Dembroff recommends the book 'Testosterone: An Unauthorized Autobiography' by Rebecca Jordan-Young and Katrina Karkazis, which debunks the idea that testosterone inherently makes men more violent, suggesting that such beliefs are not scientifically supported.
What is the role of gender in the economic struggles faced by white working-class men, as discussed in the podcast?
-The podcast suggests that during times of economic crisis, white working-class men may double down on traditional ideas of manhood to shore up their sense of self, which can lead to discriminatory attitudes and policies against other groups, as a way to cope with feelings of economic emasculation.
How does the podcast address the issue of chivalry and traditional gender roles in modern society?
-The podcast encourages listeners to question the blueprints for manhood and womanhood they have internalized, suggesting that awareness of the impact of these roles on social interactions is essential before addressing larger questions of change.
What is the significance of the listener email shared at the end of the podcast?
-The listener email serves as an example of the diverse opinions and perspectives on the topics discussed in the podcast, illustrating the complexity of issues like reparations and the importance of considering various viewpoints in these conversations.
Outlines
🌈 Introduction to Gender Politics and Backlash
The episode begins with host Celeste Headley introducing the topic of gender identity during Pride Month, highlighting the controversy surrounding brands like Bud Light and Target for supporting gender fluidity. The show aims to delve into the complexities of gender politics beyond the traditional feminist versus patriarchy narrative. Guest Robin Dembroff is introduced as challenging the binary view of gender and patriarchy, arguing that gender is a verb, a regulatory process affecting everyone, including men, in a patriarchal society.
🏳️🌈 Dismantling Binary Views of Gender and Patriarchy
In this paragraph, Robin Dembroff expands on the idea that gender is not a fixed identity but a fluid process of classification and regulation that varies across contexts. They challenge the binary understanding of gender and patriarchy, suggesting that the latter is not merely about male dominance but a more intricate system affecting everyone differently. Dembroff emphasizes that gender standards are influenced by various factors, including race and class, and that the concept of 'real men' at the top of the hierarchy is damaging to both men and women.
🔍 The Complexity of Gender Dynamics and Intersectionality
The conversation explores the intricate dynamics of gender, discussing how gender inequality and discrimination are not experienced uniformly across different groups. Statistics about workplace harassment and wage gaps are highlighted to illustrate the complexity, with a focus on how black men and women face unique challenges within the societal structure. The discussion underscores the importance of understanding the multifaceted nature of gender and its intersection with race, class, and other social factors.
📚 Historical and Academic Perspectives on Patriarchy
This section delves into the historical and academic evolution of the term 'patriarchy,' tracing its origins from household power dynamics to a broader systemic societal structure. The influence of radical feminists in the 1960s and the subsequent contributions of black, Chicana, and lesbian feminists in the 1980s are acknowledged for their role in shaping the understanding of patriarchy as a system that perpetuates gender inequality beyond the household, affecting all aspects of social life.
🤝 Navigating Gender Hierarchies and Intersectional Inequalities
The discussion continues with an examination of how gender hierarchies are constructed and maintained, using the historical example of North Carolina's post-Reconstruction era to illustrate how societal standards of manhood were manipulated to exclude black men from political power. The conversation highlights the interconnectedness of gender with race and class, and how these dynamics play out in various social contexts, including within the African-American community.
💪 Challenging Traditional Masculinity and its Societal Impact
The paragraph addresses the societal implications of traditional masculinity, including its role in perpetuating violence and aggression. It also tackles the misconception that men are universally benefited by patriarchy, emphasizing instead that the system serves to maintain the power of a small, elite group of men. The conversation touches on the importance of questioning and redefining individual concepts of manhood and womanhood to promote positive self-actualization and interpersonal relationships.
🤔 Philosophical Reflections on Gender and Real-World Applications
In the final paragraph, the conversation turns to the practical implications of the philosophical discussions on gender. The host and guest consider everyday social interactions, such as chivalry, and the importance of being aware of the internalized gender expectations that influence behavior. The guest encourages introspection and a critical examination of the blueprints for manhood and womanhood that individuals have internalized, advocating for a more conscious and respectful approach to gender dynamics.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Gender Identity
💡Patriarchy
💡Cisgender
💡Transgender
💡Non-Binary
💡Gender Fluidity
💡Real Men
💡Incels
💡Racial Dynamics
💡Systemic Inequality
💡Social Constructs
Highlights
The discussion explores the complexity of gender identity and politics, challenging the traditional binary view of gender.
Backlash against brands like Bud Light and Target for acknowledging fluid gender identities during Pride Month is highlighted.
The argument that gender is not only a social construct but a verb, constantly in action between individuals, is presented.
The idea that patriarchy is not just about men versus women but a more nuanced system affecting everyone, including men, is discussed.
Robin Dembroff's personal experience with androgyny and the fluidity of gender perception is shared.
The historical context of gender fluidity, dating back to the Iron Age and Copper Age, is mentioned.
The impact of societal perceptions on the workplace, such as the gender pay gap and the portrayal of men as weak, is examined.
The conversation delves into the complexities of gender dynamics, including the intersection with race and class.
The concept of 'real men' as a small group of institutional elites who benefit from societal gender norms is introduced.
The role of gender in perpetuating economic and social inequality, particularly against men of color and those with disabilities, is discussed.
The evolution of the term 'patriarchy' from household power to a broader systemic societal arrangement is explained.
The argument that gender inequality is not a binary issue between men and women but a more complex interplay of power is presented.
The historical example of North Carolina's 'best man' campaign to maintain white elite power through gendered standards is cited.
The discussion addresses the misconception that testosterone is the cause of male aggression and violence.
The potential for redefining masculinity and femininity on an individual level, beyond societal expectations, is encouraged.
The conversation concludes with a call for awareness and reevaluation of internalized gender norms and their impact on daily interactions.
Transcripts
this is hear me out I'm your host
Celeste Headley you're no doubt aware of
the hot button issue that is gender
identity during this pride month we have
seen backlash against Brands like Bud
Light and target for recognizing and in
that way tacitly supporting the fact
that gender identities exist and are
fluid but a fluid gender spectrum is
just another layer on the cake of
complicated gender politics in our
country for a long time we've thought of
this stuff as feminism versus patriarchy
but our guest today argues that it's
much much more complicated than that
they argue that not only is gender a
verb not a noun but that everyone hurts
in a patriarchal society including men
you can start to see that the way that
gendering actually works is not to lift
men up and push women down gender is a
very complex regulatory process that is
constantly happening between us and
every single person that we encounter
Robin dembroff joins us on today's
episode of hear me out stay with us
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we're back on hear me out a podcast from
Slate I'm Celeste Headley before pride
month ends we want to chat about another
Hot Topic in this country gender
politics sure a big part of lgbtq plus
identity is often sexuality but it's
often also related to gender identity as
a reminder
sex is what you're born with gender is
how you identify so if your gender
identity matches the sex you were
assigned at Birth you are cisgender I'm
cisgender if not you might be
transgender or non-binary or gender
fluid or any number of identities that
are all grouped together under the queer
umbrella gender fluidity is not a new
thing there are examples of non-binary
humans going back thousands of years to
the Iron Age and even the copper age but
if gender is fluid it's more difficult
to frame it as a tug of war between two
Sexes lgbtq plus rights are under attack
throughout the country and in some ways
the binary is being enforced more
aggressively than ever there are still
those who say despite all evidence to
the contrary that women are not
disadvantaged in the workplace that
there is no gender pay Gap and if a
woman is a breadwinner she's
emasculating the men in her life but if
she stays at home she's lazy and men are
still seen as weak when they express
emotions that are not either anger or
courage and windsing or Harry Styles
wears a dress on the cover of Vogue
pundits angrily declare that masculinity
is dead Harry Styles please stick to
Armani menswear or at least pants you
look ridiculous and the pearls are a
really bad look
the United States is still very much a
patriarchal society and sometimes that
basic truth is interpreted to mean that
while the rest of us struggle cisgender
men have it made so long as they conform
to gender expectations so no ballet no
watercolors gentlemen fighting the
patriarchy to make this country safer
and more Equitable for all of us
requires knowing what we're up against
so what if the patriarchy isn't Men
first everyone else lasts and instead
patriarchy is everybody's enemy
including men Robin denbrough an
assistant professor in Yale's philosophy
Department joins us to make that
argument hi Robin hi thank you for
having me
I'm really excited for this conversation
because as a non-binary person
I suspect you have thought about this in
ways I have not
um tell me your argument in a nutshell
to begin this you as I understand it
believe that patriarchy
um hurts men equally to an equal degree
that it hurts women
is that right yeah before we get to that
question I think we need to start a few
steps back so I actually want to go to
something you said in the intro when you
said sex is something you're born with
and gender is something you identify as
I actually think the picture is much
more complicated so to tell you a little
bit about me that helps you understand
my perspective on gender I grew up as
someone who is very androgynous from as
early as I could remember like my body
stayed the same as I moved between
various contexts whether it was at the
grocery store at church with my family
on a sports team but the way people
gendered me changed drastically
depending on what space I was in and
even which person I was talking to some
people saw me as a boy other people saw
and treated me as a girl and yet other
people would ask is that a boy or a girl
right to my mother's great dismay and so
what that taught me is that yes there
are physical features that we're born
with that are certainly relevant to
understanding how gender operates in our
world but how you get categorized as
male or female or as a man or as a a
woman is itself a set of social
standards that can differ across people
and differ across contexts and what that
constant moving taught me was that
gender is not a noun gender is a verb
gender is gender ing it's the process of
classifying each other as either a man
or a woman and then holding that person
accountable to certain standards that
we've internalized which again differ
quite a lot across people in context for
what's expected of you as a man or as a
woman so hold that part fixed right that
gender is gender Inc gender is some is a
form of Regulation that we do to each
other that we do to ourselves all the
time and that institutions like the
state and financial markets do to us and
so then when you add to that that the
standards for what it takes to classify
someone as a man or a woman and then the
standards that they're held to as a man
as a woman thoroughly integrate things
like Notions of capital racial meanings
meanings of disability all of these
sorts of things you can start to see
that the way that gendering actually
works is not to lift men up and push
women down gender is a very complex
regulatory process that is constantly
happening not only between ourselves and
ourselves but between us and every
single person that we encounter and the
way that that process works is not to
create a binary hierarchy the way that
process works is to push down women but
to many various degrees depending on how
well they approximate powerful ideas of
what women should be which are white
which are wealthy Etc they push down the
majority of men and we can see this
historically how ideas of what manhood
is have been weaponized particularly
against men of color against men with
disabilities against queer men and what
this process actually does is lift one
very small group to the top which is a
group I call real men which is the group
of institutional Elites who most closely
approximate our most powerful ideas in
our society of what men are and what men
should be describe that group this tiny
first of all I totally get that there
are some some among our listeners who
are are maybe not keeping up here we are
talking about gender and sexuality and
Society in ways that are maybe new to
some people and that's okay that's okay
totally all right because all the things
that you're talking about are to some
people very new ways to think about it
and
in many ways that's exactly why you're
talking about it that this way because
we've all been trained in a certain way
to view gender and sexuality and society
and culture and
um this is kind of the work that you do
is saying it doesn't have to be thought
about this way so that's okay if you're
you're feeling like you're lagging
behind it's all right but can you
describe this group that you'd call the
real men what does that look like I
think that real men are in effect the
billionaires the wealthy male
billionaires of the world who have
amassed the world's wealth and used many
different kinds of ideas to justify and
reinforce that economic and social
inequality and gender is one of their
main sets of ideas that they use to
justify that inequality and to create
division against everyone below them so
that they don't actually address the
income and social inequality okay so
with that said
um in terms of clarifying what is meant
by gender let let's go to the argument
about patriarchy
and what I asked was whether the simple
description of your view is that
patriarchy hurts men to an equal degree
that it hurts women is that accurate I
don't think that the group's men and
women have the kind of uniform
experiences of gender that would allow
us to make that kind of comparison so
for example it's true that white men
earn more than white women in the
workplace but white women earn more than
both black men and Hispanic men in the
workplace right they're median hourly
wage is actually higher so when we talk
about the groups men and women we're
talking about groups of people who have
such vastly different experiences of
being a man or of being a woman that I
don't think it makes sense to use those
two groups as a men versus women
comparison so you don't think that it's
at all useful
to talk about gender even as a research
topic to to talk about sexual harassment
or sexual discrimination in the
workplace oh I absolutely think we
should talk about those things I just
think that we are not getting the
picture right if we pretend that sexual
harassment and so on only affects women
or affects women equally or affects men
equally right actually the statistics
about who experiences these things in
the workplace in prison all these
contexts is much more complicated than a
binary picture would suggest
that's sort of like the the issue with
any statistics right I mean no no
statistic refers to an individual they
always refer to averages I mean in order
to get any kind of picture of a of a
demographic you're you're going to get a
picture of an unreal person I mean we're
identifying Trends right so when we talk
about
uh Trends within the workplace or over
studying any kind of discrimination or
Prejudice we're always talking about the
aggregate
we're never talking about specific
people that's sort of the nature of the
study right yes you have to aggregate to
do studies but what I think is true of
gender is that the way gender Works
which is a form of again controlling or
regulating People based on our ideas
about manhood and Womanhood those aren't
ideas that create a binary hierarchy
actually you know one of the most I
think victimized Group by those ideas in
our country is black men I mean and
obviously black women I'm not I'm not
trying to do a comparison here but the
fact that more than one in four black
men are incarcerated in our society is
not a irrelevant question to the
question of what gender does in our
society the positioning of black men as
hyper masculine as Predators as
criminals all of these things in order
to justify a carceral system that takes
them out of the workforce and gives an
economic surplus in doing so to White
working class men that's that's part of
the way gender works it also has to do
with the competition of manhood between
white men of color and the fact that
white men are trying to hold on to their
place as higher in the hierarchy of
manhood than men of color so what I'm
saying is that the Dynamics of gender
are not something that happen only
between men and women and nor do they
happen only in One Direction between men
and women see for example the history of
white women being complicit and taking
part in lynch mobs against black men
right those are gender dynamics that are
happening between men and women but
actually the power Dynamic is flipped
because of the way that gender works
yeah I guess we'll take a break in just
a few minutes but I wonder
I wonder how much of that is patriarch
you know you're the professor here so I
want to be clear here when we talk about
patriarchy we're talking about a system
in which
the father or the the the the male
head of a family or group is the most
powerful in a group or in which the men
hold power in in a group of humans and
women are excluded from it or a
community where it's organized on on men
having the power is that what we're
talking about when we talk about
patriarchy so here I think we have to go
to the history of the term patriarchy
originally the term patriarchy within
academic study meant what you're talking
about a form of household power that
comes from Greco-Roman tradition of
giving a man in a household power over
the woman or women and children in his
household but what happened in the 1960s
and what gave us the notion of
patriarchy we have today is that radical
feminists said hey gender hierarchy
gender inequality gender harm doesn't
only happen in the household this is
something that happens in every sphere
of life and so they took the term
patriarchy and they said let's use this
term instead to talk about the
arrangement of our society that creates
that kind of inequality and harm and a
systemic way throughout every part of
our social experience
so how does that new version of
patriarchy relate to what you're talking
about
um in terms of the the racism placing
white women for example higher on the
levels of power than black men I think
it's helpful here actually to go back to
that intellectual history because I
think the intervention that you know in
the 1960s mostly white middle-class
feminists who were saying this the
intervention that they made was to say
hey inequality in the world isn't a
biologically determined outcome of how
big our genitals are right this is
something that happens because we have
social meanings and ideas of Womanhood
that devalue women and that's why these
things keep systemically happening to
women people who are classified as women
which again the same person can be
classified as a woman in one context and
treated as such and not in another but
let's set that aside then what happens
is and then in the 1980s you get black
and Chicana and lesbian feminists who
come along and say those ideas of
Womanhood that you all have been
treating as homogeneous actually aren't
my experience of being a woman in this
world is very different than your white
middle class cisgender straight
experience of being a woman in the world
and gender is not irrelevant to that
it's because ideas of female Beauty are
white it's because the ideas of
motherhood and wife Hood as an
achievement of Womanhood immediately put
into question the Womanhood of lesbians
you know all of these aspects of
Womanhood create hierarchies between
women and that was the point that they
made and the real intervention I hope
that we can all make now you know 40
years later is to see that the same is
true of manhood there are very gross
inequalities and harms that exist
between men and understanding the ideas
of manhood are actually very integral
for explaining those hierarchies
okay we're going to take a break uh we
are speaking with Robin dembrov of
Yale's philosophy department and we're
talking about
whether or not patriarchy hurts
everybody not just females in our
society and we're going to continue
talking about gender politics in just a
moment you're listening to hear me out a
podcast from Slate I'm Celeste tedley
we'll be right back
[Music]
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bone-in ribeye beef kebabs and New York
strip steak round out your barbecue with
plant-based proteins sliced cheese soft
buns and all the condiments plus sales
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don't forget the pie either get grilling
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and we're back this is hear me out a
podcast from Slate I'm Celeste Headley
and with us today is Robin dembroff from
Yale's philosophy Department talking
about battles over gender and who gets
hurt the most and whether anybody gets
hurt the most and as I understand it and
it's it's rare that I get this far into
the conversation Robin when I don't
and I don't entirely know if I have a
full grasp on on what um your argument
is because I I've tried a couple times
to
um articulate it and I I get corrected
rightly so so let me try again it sounds
as though you're saying that the
patriarchal society in which we live in
you're not disputing that we live in a
patriarchal society the patriarchal
society in which we live in hurts
everybody pretty equally is that
accurate I think maybe I should be clear
that I think that the notion of
patriarchy that people are going to come
into this show listening to it with is
not the view of patriarchy that I have
and that's very integral in the same way
that when we discovered that the you
know the sun doesn't rotate the Earth we
had to change our concept of earth right
to one where the Earth rotates the sun
in fact I think that the notion of
patriarchy as a system that benefits men
over women actually doesn't get the way
that just gender Works in our world
correctly it doesn't actually get at the
lived reality of how gender creates
systemic inequality and harms between
groups of people and when we actually
look at what is that system what is the
system that creates systemic gender
inequality and harm it is not a system
that puts men over women it's a system
that actually is designed to keep the
most elite and wealthy men in power over
everyone else
but it's it's really difficult for me to
get away from the fact that
um
everyone else I mean yes it is correct
that everyone else includes black and
brown people it includes
um members of the lgbtq plus Community
absolutely but there are specific
um prejudices and there are specific
discriminations that apply to those who
are seen in society as female I mean
there are specific things that relate to
somebody who is Black for example but if
you say let's look at the
African-American experience in the
United States there is a different
experience among black women than there
is for black men
um and so it's hard for me to to think
that we're we're talking about sort of
that we can set aside the gendered
experience of patriarchy because there
very much is a difference between the
female experience of patriarchy as
opposed to the male experience
absolutely I 100 agree with you that
there is a difference what I disagree
with is that that difference is one that
always benefits men over women I also
just think that that's not the right
it's not a men versus women process so
let me tell you a story actually this
might help during Reconstruction in
North Carolina white wealthy Elites at
the time had their power challenged by
the fact that now black men or citizens
and could vote yeah and so what they did
was they they intentionally created a
campaign around what they called the
best man and they said the best man is a
meritocratic ideal it's just like the
the goodest man right the real man yeah
and you have to be a best man in order
to deserve to hold public office and
then what they did was they described
the best man in this campaign as things
like economically successful charity
leaders in their religious Protestant
communities they created standards of
Merit of manhood that encoded race that
encoded class and this allowed them to
say that black men were not deserving of
political enfranchisement because they
were not the best men and what I'm
saying is that that is true at so many
different levels of our society when we
actually subject to scrutiny our ideas
about what men and women ought to be
like
and how they get treated as men and as
women we start to see that what we might
have thought were separate
discriminations like race or like class
those are actually built in to the way
that we treat each other as women and as
men
there's so much true in what you're
saying but I will say this in that
within say for example the
African-American Community there is so
much sexism there is so much
gender discrimination between black men
against black women and going back even
to the days just after the Civil War and
you know even as recently as as the the
Civil Rights protests that came from the
organizational skills and history of
black women's organizations and of
course all that we know in terms of
History where these black men who step
forward and in many cases refused to
allow women to take leadership positions
um there is so much gender
discrimination among that community that
it's very difficult to ever separate
that out is that what you're saying is
that
I definitely don't think we should
separate that out right the ways that we
do gender is patriarchal gender to each
other which includes the kinds of things
that you're talking about but also
includes right white women falsely
occlusing black men of rape in order to
get them lynched right these are all
part of the way that gender works and
punching down is one of the most Central
practices of masculinity right like
manhood in a patriarchal society is
about having power over women and having
power over other men and this kind of
punching down in order to solidify one's
own status as a man is something that
men are taught to do in a patriarchal
society what I don't think we should
conclude from that is that therefore
what this entire system creates when we
look not just at the relationships
between black men and black women or
white men and white women but we
actually step back and look at how
gender constructs the relationships
between all sorts of different groups we
start to see that when we narrow into
just these kind of very small
comparisons we're missing the bigger
picture about the actual structure of
inequality that this system creates
okay so we're going to take a break real
quick but I I would be remiss if I
didn't address what is going to be on
some of our listeners mind which is the
issue of testosterone which they're
going to say makes men more prone to
violence and more aggressive behavior
and therefore
um makes a difference in the way that
they encounter not just women but
everyone else in society what's your
response to that I would uh suggest that
people read the book called
testosterone an unauthorized
autobiography by Rebecca Jordan young
and Katrina carquestis which completely
debunks that it's a really good book I
recommend it also
um I I'm celestead we are listening to
hear me out and we are talking to Robin
dembrov from Yale's philosophy
Department we're talking about gender we
will be back to talk about this more in
just a moment stay with us
thank you
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we're back we're talking about the
patriarchy and with us is Robin dembrov
from Yale this is hear me out a podcast
from Slate and it's time to talk about
the elephant in the room and by elephant
I mean Joe Rogan and his buddies so I I
have to ask this Robin because as soon
as I was doing research for this episode
and I I put in there who suffers the
most
in a patriarchal society some of the
very first things that came up were blog
posts from members of the incel
community right these were
articles from Men Who feel they are
victimized by feminists
um that they are the biggest victims of
what's called erroneously called cancel
culture that cisgendered heterosexual
white men are uh being targeted that
they are being discriminated against and
so as soon as I put in that thing of
that men suffer from patriarchy that is
the first thing that came up what is
your response to this idea that talking
about men as suffering from this at All
Leads Credence to that kind of argument
I think we need to look at the
Historical patterns because what you're
describing is completely predictable and
it's happened at many points of History
before when we are in times of economic
crisis white men who are used to an
economic and so masculine advantage over
men of color start doubling down on
heteronormative ideas that Shore up
their idea of man who good they start
doubling down on ideas of men of color
and immigrants being hyper Predator
rapists and criminals that allow for
laws and policies that economically
discriminate against those groups
there's this vacuum of a need for an
idea of manhood in those moments because
our ideas of being a provider being a
breadwinner and being in economically
independent are so wrapped up in our
ideas of manhood that the kind of moment
that we're in right now where even white
working class men are struggling to make
a living right even then and when you
hit that moment that's when people like
Joe Rogan show up because they're here
to offer those men who are now feeling a
certain kind of fear of economic
emasculation new solutions to their
insecurity
so I I want to um relate to you
something that I was told by a family
member an older white family member who
said he doesn't get why there's this
effort to make it seem like his
personality has been forced on him in
other words he is a very much
emotionally moved by John Wayne movies
you know the the idea of honor and
Country and stoicism and courage in the
face of fear and you know
self-sacrificing that very traditional
idea of masculinity
he doesn't see that as being imposed
upon him
he sees that as who he is
and he feels as though this Progressive
idea of masculinity is trying to take
that away from him what's your response
to that do you feel like speaking
English was imposed on you me personally
yeah yes I mean yeah because you had to
speak it in order to survive yeah or
like to yeah that's what I would say
about masculinity it might not feel like
it's being imposed because you have to
learn it just to navigate the world like
we have to learn language but that
doesn't mean that we didn't learn it
from the world and that doesn't mean
that there was a really there is clearly
especially with masculinity in some ways
a really robust system of enforcing of
policing of punishing people who don't
do the things that are expected of them
or don't have the kinds of bodies that
they're expected to have in response to
that kind of system so what I would say
to someone like that is of course there
are positive traits that one can
associate with their own idea of manhood
and I encourage all men to instead of
just accepting the ideas of manta that
they have been given to think about what
kind of manhood is in my Integrity what
kind of man do I want to be what do I
want it to mean for me and not feel like
that needs to be a comparison with other
men or competition with other men or the
idea that they have now captured the
essence of true manhood and everyone
else has not right like there's but but
I think I'll say something else which is
that in addition to that I think we need
to be careful that the things that we
are putting into our ideas of manhood
and Womanhood even for ourselves are not
things that are causing us or leading us
to treat other people or even ourselves
like we are missing the mark like we are
not what we are supposed to be do you
think it's wrong for somebody to put on
a pair of jeans and and ride their horse
and go target shooting is that the wrong
thing for a guy to do
no my point I mean I've done all those
things
my point is more that uh there isn't a
right or wrong answer to the question of
what masculinity is manhood is a always
evolving always contested set of ideas
that differs across the people you talk
to or even a single person as they age
right like all right my ideas of manhood
when I was 10 are certainly different
than they are now and I imagine that's
true for many people and if they talk to
their fathers or their mothers or their
great-grandfathers their ideas would be
different so I think there are so many
different masculinities and I think what
that encourages us to do is to stop
asking this question of which one's the
right one instead start asking which
ones allow me to be actualized in the
world to be in the world in a way that
makes my relationship to myself and
other people more positive
okay so I hesitate to ask this of of
somebody who is in the philosophy
department but what does this mean in
the real world as I go about my regular
day I mean for example what does this
mean for chivalry do I still ask a guy
to open the door for me do I still ask
him to to uh pay for dinner if we're on
a date I think the main thing that I
want people to take away from my work is
a new level of awareness about what we
are doing to ourselves and to other
people in our social interactions and in
our interactions with ourselves and
instead of it just being automatic for
us all to each think about what is the
blueprint for manhood and for Womanhood
that I have internalized what are my
ideas about what makes someone a man or
a woman and what are my ideas about what
people should be like and how do I
impose those ideas on myself how do I
impose those ideas on other people and
in all of those interactions are there
ways that I can be wait for people to
consent or to ask me not not assume
things about what people are going to be
like not judge myself you know I think
just being aware of the fact that we are
constantly in this process of using our
ideas about men and women as a filter to
interact with living beings and the
consequences of that is an essential
step before we can get to bigger
questions of now what do we do about it
now that we're aware of it okay uh Robin
thank you so much for joining this this
has been a really thoughtful
conversation thanks for having me
okay so this was a challenging
conversation and and not just for some
of you for me too look I the
conversation about gender and sexuality
is changing all the time and it's tough
for me sometimes to fully keep up with
it and understand and and listen and
and wrap my head around communities and
identities that I don't belong to I have
to really listen to what people are
saying and I know that a lot of you have
a lot of thoughts about it and a lot of
opinions and some of those thoughts
happen while our guest is still talking
luckily you can let us know what you
think and you can email us it's
hearmeout slate.com lots of you are
emailing us and you've done so already
last week we had Coleman Hughes on the
show to make a case against reparations
for descendants of enslaved people we
got a lot of mail about this show but we
want to share just one comment before we
go this email came from a listener named
Dane Dane wrote this I want to say how
much I appreciate the general tenor of
this episode and the podcast more
generally I love this format with that
out of the way I think Celeste is very
obviously wrong on this issue why is a
black family who had the benefit of
living in the richest country in the
world for Generations more deserving of
support than a refugee family arriving
here penniless why is an upper class
descendant of slaves more deserving of a
leg up than a poor Filipino family as
Coleman says the actual victims of these
injustices should have been compensated
that is the people who were enslaved my
family arrived in the U.S 35 years ago
none of them participated in or profited
From Slavery redlining you name it so
why are we on the hook to pay for these
reparations
I get your point there are lots of
people who deserve a leg up and I
absolutely believe in a social safety
net on the other hand the people who
were enslaved were never compensated by
the US government as they should have
been and
African-Americans are at a major
disadvantage in education in income in
generational wealth it's just time to
make good on what the United States
should have done
150 years ago more than 150 years ago it
it's time to pay that debt so listen we
cover a lot of challenging and difficult
opinions on this podcast and we're sure
that you have your own takes we love
hearing them so please email us it's
hear me out at slate.com hear me out is
a podcast from slake the show is
produced by Maura Curry Ben Richmond is
the senior director of podcast
operations and Alicia Montgomery is VP
of slate audio I'm your host Celeste
Headley so until next time speak your
mind but keep it open
from an Iraq war cover-up to towns
ravaged by opioids to the roots of our
modern immigration crisis embedded
explores what's been sealed off and
undisclosed NPR's original investigative
podcast reveals why these stories and
the people behind them matter listen to
the embedded podcast only from NPR
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