Writing Your Way to Better Health with James Pennebaker

Summary

In this Planet Word virtual event, curator Rebecca Roberts hosts psychologist James Pennebaker to discuss expressive writing's impact on health and well-being. Pennebaker, creator of the Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count program, explains how writing about emotional experiences can improve sleep, immune function, and reduce stress. The conversation explores the benefits of this therapeutic technique, including its ability to clarify thoughts, acknowledge emotions, and potentially lead to personal insights. The session includes interactive writing exercises, demonstrating how writing can be a self-reflective tool for understanding and processing life's challenges.

Takeaways

• 📚 Rebecca Roberts introduces Planet Word, a museum of words and language, emphasizing its free admission and virtual programming during the pandemic.
• 🌐 The museum offers virtual conversations and welcomes global participation, with updates available through their website, newsletter, and social media.
• 🙌 Membership support is vital for the museum's free-admission policy, and joining is easy through their website.
• 💬 James Pennebaker, a psychologist and member of Planet Word's advisory board, is known for his research on the impact of expressive writing on health.
• ✍️ Expressive writing involves writing about emotionally significant experiences for a short duration, potentially improving physical and mental health.
• 🔍 Pennebaker's research led to the development of the LIWC (Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count) program, revealing connections between language use and personality.
• 📈 Over 1,000 studies support the benefits of expressive writing, including improved sleep, immune function, and reduced cardiovascular load.
• 🤔 Expressive writing is distinct from diary writing, serving as a brief, focused exploration of thoughts and feelings without the need for an audience.
• 🔑 The therapeutic benefits of expressive writing may include life course correction, better sleep, and enhanced social connections.
• 🌟 Writing can be a tool for self-reflection and understanding, even when dealing with minor annoyances, and can help clarify issues and emotions.
• 🔄 The process of writing can be transformative, leading to new insights and directions in thought, and can be adapted to personal preferences and needs.

Q & A

What is the role of Rebecca Roberts at Planet Word?

Rebecca Roberts is the Curator of Programming at Planet Word, a museum of words and language located in the historic Franklin School in downtown Washington, D.C.

How can people access Planet Word's programs during the pandemic?

People can access Planet Word's programs virtually, as the museum has been hosting virtual conversations and will continue to do so even after resuming in-person programming. They can stay informed about upcoming programs by visiting the museum's website, subscribing to the newsletter, or following on social media.

What is the significance of membership at Planet Word?

Membership at Planet Word is significant because it provides vital support to the museum, which operates as a free-admission institution. Members contribute to the museum's ability to remain accessible to all visitors.

Who is James Pennebaker and what is his connection to Planet Word?

James Pennebaker is a psychologist at the University of Texas, Austin, and a member of Planet Word's advisory board. His book, 'The Secret Life of Pronouns,' greatly influenced the museum's founder, Ann Friedman, in shaping the content of Planet Word.

What is expressive writing and how does it differ from diary writing?

Expressive writing is a technique where individuals write about emotionally significant experiences, either positive or upsetting, for a brief period, such as 10-15 minutes at a time, over several consecutive days. It differs from diary writing in that it is a focused exploration of thoughts and feelings on a specific issue, rather than a continuous, daily record of life events.

What are the potential benefits of expressive writing on physical and mental health?

Expressive writing can lead to improvements in sleep, immune function, cardiovascular load, and overall mental health. It can also help individuals process and understand upsetting experiences, potentially reducing stress and improving memory and cognitive function.

How does the LIWC (Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count) program analyze text?

The LIWC program is a computer program that analyzes language in any given text. It can measure various linguistic dimensions, including the use of pronouns, prepositions, articles, conjunctions, and auxiliary verbs, which can reveal insights into personality, thought patterns, and psychological states.

What is the recommended approach for someone who wants to start expressive writing?

To start expressive writing, one should set aside time to write alone, promising to write for at least three sessions of 10 minutes each. The writing should be personal and not intended for others to read, focusing on exploring thoughts and feelings about a specific issue.

Can writing about the same issue repeatedly become counterproductive?

Yes, if a person writes about the same issue in the same way multiple times without any change in perspective or understanding, it may become ruminative and cease to be beneficial. It's important to try to change the approach or perspective in writing to derive benefits.

What advice does James Pennebaker give for dealing with writer's block or difficulty starting to write?

Pennebaker suggests starting with questions like 'Why is this so hard?' or 'What does it matter?' to explore the difficulty in getting started. He also recommends writing continuously without stopping, and if one runs out of things to say, to repeat what has already been written until new ideas emerge.

How does Pennebaker view the role of expressive writing in one's life?

Pennebaker views expressive writing as a tool to be used as needed, similar to penicillin. It should be used when one finds themselves thinking about an issue too much, and then set aside when the need diminishes. He also emphasizes the importance of enjoying life without excessive introspection.

What is the effect of writing in different languages for bilingual individuals?

Writing in different languages can be beneficial for bilingual individuals as it forces a different organizational structure and can draw on different life experiences and emotional issues. Switching between languages while writing may provide additional benefits.

How does Pennebaker suggest monitoring the effects of expressive writing on oneself?

Pennebaker recommends being an experimentalist and trying different approaches to writing to see what works best for the individual. He also suggests monitoring behaviors such as sleep quality, weight loss efforts, or attempts to stop smoking or reduce drinking to measure the impact of writing.

Outlines

00:00

📜 Introduction to Planet Word Museum

Rebecca Roberts, the Curator of Programming at Planet Word, a museum dedicated to the celebration of language, welcomes the audience to a virtual event. She highlights the museum's location in Washington, D.C., and its operating hours, while acknowledging the ongoing pandemic and expressing gratitude for the virtual attendees. Rebecca emphasizes the museum's commitment to free admission and the importance of memberships in sustaining this policy. She introduces the guest speaker, James Pennebaker, a psychologist from the University of Texas, Austin, and a member of Planet Word's advisory board, whose work has significantly influenced the museum's content.

05:01

📝 The Impact of Expressive Writing

James Pennebaker discusses his research journey into the effects of expressive writing, which involves writing about emotionally significant experiences. He explains the process and potential benefits of expressive writing, distinguishing it from diary writing. Pennebaker's work has shown that writing about distressing events can improve physical and mental health, and he delves into the mechanisms by which writing helps individuals process their experiences and potentially improve their health. Rebecca and Pennebaker explore the nuances of expressive writing, including its therapeutic aspects and the importance of personal narrative in the healing process.

10:04

🌐 The Pandemic's Call for Expressive Writing

The conversation shifts to the relevance of expressive writing in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic. Pennebaker suggests that writing can be a beneficial tool for processing the emotional turmoil caused by such a widespread and disruptive event. He emphasizes that while expressive writing is not a cure-all, it can be a simple and accessible method to help individuals navigate their thoughts and feelings during challenging times, potentially leading to improved mental and physical well-being.

15:05

✍️ The Art of Starting Expressive Writing

James Pennebaker provides practical advice on how to begin expressive writing, suggesting that participants write about a bothersome issue without delving into major traumas due to time constraints. He encourages a free-flowing writing style, using any method comfortable for the writer, including finger writing in the air. Pennebaker explains that the initial writing session may not lead to immediate relief but can help in clarifying the issue at hand, which is a crucial first step in the process of expressive writing.

20:07

🕒 The Duration and Depth of Expressive Writing

The discussion continues with Pennebaker sharing his experiences and findings on the duration and depth of writing sessions. He explains that various durations have been tested, from 20 minutes for four days to shorter sessions, and all have shown positive effects. The key is to write until the individual feels they have sufficiently explored their thoughts and feelings. Pennebaker also touches on the importance of introspection and how writing can guide a person's thinking in new directions.

25:10

🎯 The Benefits of Perspective Shift in Writing

James Pennebaker emphasizes the importance of changing one's perspective while writing as a key to the benefits of expressive writing. He notes that simply repeating the same narrative does not yield benefits and may lead to rumination, which is characteristic of depression. Instead, the goal is to gain new insights and understanding through the writing process. Rebecca shares her personal experience with writing, noting how it can lead to deeper self-reflection and even a sense of boredom with the initial issue, indicating that it may not be as significant as initially thought.

30:11

🌟 Exploring the Creative Side of Expressive Writing

The conversation explores the potential of expressive writing to become an art form, with individuals using the process to create poetry or memoirs. Pennebaker shares anecdotes of people who have found unique and creative ways to express themselves through writing, which can be a means of organizing life experiences or passing on stories to future generations. Rebecca and Pennebaker agree that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to writing and that individuals should explore what works best for them.

35:13

🗣️ Bilingual Writing and Its Effects

The discussion addresses the question of whether writing in one's native language or a second language is more effective for expressive writing. Pennebaker cites research that suggests writing in both languages can be beneficial, as it forces a different organizational structure and taps into different emotional experiences. The choice of language can be a conscious decision based on the emotion one wishes to express.

40:17

🔍 Best Practices for Exploring Expressive Writing

James Pennebaker offers guidance for those interested in exploring expressive writing. He advises setting aside time for writing, ensuring privacy, and being mindful of the content to avoid potential harm to oneself or others. Pennebaker also recommends experimenting with different writing styles and rituals to find what works best for the individual. He encourages treating the process as a scientific experiment, monitoring changes in behavior and well-being to assess the impact of writing.

45:21

👋 Closing Remarks and Future Perspectives

In the closing segment, Rebecca thanks James Pennebaker for his insightful discussion on expressive writing and its benefits. She also expresses gratitude to the audience for their support of Planet Word and invites them to visit the museum in person when possible. The conversation concludes on a positive note, with an emphasis on the value of continued exploration and application of expressive writing in various aspects of life.

Keywords

💡Expressive Writing

Expressive Writing is a therapeutic technique where individuals write about emotionally significant experiences, typically for a short duration over several days. It is distinct from journaling in its focused exploration of thoughts and feelings on a specific issue. In the video, James Pennebaker discusses the benefits of expressive writing for mental and physical health, citing its ability to help individuals process upsetting experiences and potentially improve sleep and immune function.

💡Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count (LIWC)

LIWC is a computer program developed by James Pennebaker that analyzes language in a given text. It is significant in the script as it was instrumental in Pennebaker's research, revealing the connection between language use, particularly pronouns and other functional words, and an individual's personality and psychological state. The tool helped in quantifying the effects of expressive writing by measuring changes in language patterns.

💡Pronouns

Pronouns are a type of word used to replace nouns, and they include 'I', 'you', 'he', 'she', 'it', 'we', 'they', etc. In the context of the video, Pennebaker highlights the importance of pronouns in understanding personality and psychological states. His book 'The Secret Life of Pronouns' is mentioned as influential in the formation of Planet Word, indicating the relevance of pronouns in language and life.

💡Pandemic

The term 'pandemic' refers to an outbreak of a disease that occurs over a wide geographic area and affects an exceptionally high proportion of the population. In the script, the pandemic is discussed as an upsetting experience that can be addressed through expressive writing, suggesting its utility in coping with the stress and health impacts associated with such widespread health crises.

💡Mental Health

Mental Health encompasses emotional, psychological, and social well-being. It affects how individuals think, feel, and act, and is a central theme in the video. Pennebaker's research on expressive writing demonstrates its impact on mental health, showing that writing about distressing experiences can lead to improved psychological outcomes.

💡Physical Health

Physical Health relates to the general condition of a person's body. The script discusses how expressive writing can have a positive impact on physical health, potentially reducing the frequency of visits to health centers and improving immune function, as demonstrated by Pennebaker's studies.

💡Introspection

Introspection is the process of self-examination, where one looks inward to understand one's own thoughts and feelings. In the video, Pennebaker mentions his own lack of introspection and how expressive writing can aid in this process, allowing individuals to delve deeper into their experiences and emotions.

💡Rumination

Rumination refers to the act of repeatedly thinking over the same thoughts or experiences without resolution. In the script, Pennebaker warns against the potential downside of expressive writing if it becomes ruminative, suggesting that changing the perspective or approach in writing can prevent this from happening.

💡Bilingual

Being bilingual means having the ability to use two languages fluently. The script touches on the question of whether writing in one's native language versus a second language affects the effectiveness of expressive writing. Pennebaker's research suggests that writing in multiple languages might even offer additional benefits by forcing a different organizational structure.

💡Planet Word

Planet Word is a museum of words and language, as mentioned by Rebecca Roberts, the curator. It serves as the setting for the video's conversation and is a place that explores the role of words in life and language, reflecting the themes discussed in the video.

💡Working Memory

Working memory is a cognitive system that holds and manipulates information in the short term. Pennebaker discusses how stress can negatively impact working memory, causing people to have difficulty remembering when they are preoccupied with upsetting experiences. Expressive writing is posited as a method to alleviate this stress and improve cognitive function.

Highlights

Rebecca Roberts introduces Planet Word, a museum of words and language, and its virtual programming during the pandemic.

James Pennebaker discusses the influence of his book 'The Secret Life of Pronouns' on the formation of Planet Word.

Pennebaker's research into expressive writing reveals its impact on physical and mental health.

The development of the Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count (LIWC) program to analyze language in text.

Surprising findings that functional words like pronouns can indicate personality and psychological states.

Expressive writing defined as a technique for exploring thoughts and feelings on emotionally significant experiences.

The distinction between expressive writing and diary writing, emphasizing the brief and focused nature of the former.

Quantifiable outcomes of expressive writing on health, including improved sleep and immune function.

The importance of writing for oneself without the pressure of an audience.

Pennebaker's personal experience with expressive writing as a tool for understanding and organizing thoughts.

The process of labeling and organizing experiences through writing as a means to reduce obsession.

The benefits of expressive writing in finding meaning or value in upsetting experiences.

The exploration of writer's block and using writing as a method to overcome it.

The impact of writing on working memory and the ability to focus on other life aspects.

The potential of expressive writing to enhance connections with others post-trauma.

Guidance on how to start expressive writing, including setting a timer and choosing a topic.

The role of introspection in Pennebaker's personal life and its influence on his research.

The significance of changing perspective in writing to avoid rumination and promote personal growth.

The exploration of writing in different languages and its potential benefits for bilingual individuals.

Recommendations for medical professionals interested in incorporating expressive writing into clinical practice.

Final thoughts on the value of expressive writing as a self-help tool and the encouragement to experiment with different writing approaches.

Transcripts

Rebecca Roberts: Welcome, everyone. I'm Rebecca Roberts.

I'm the Curator of Programming at Planet Word.

We are a museum of words and language

in the historic Franklin School in downtown Washington, D.C.

That's it in my Zoom background.

I hope many of you have had a chance to come visit us in person.

We are open Thursdays through Sundays, 10 to 5.

If you're not here in Washington

or not quite ready to go to a museum in these pandemic times,

I'm delighted you're joining us virtually.

One of the silver linings of this pandemic

has been the ability to have these virtual conversations

and welcome people from all over,

so we will continue them

even after we're able to welcome people to in-person programming in the museum.

So keep an eye on our website,

or subscribe to our newsletter, follow us on social media.

That's the way you'll see our upcoming programs.

If you're a member of Planet Word, thank you so much for that support.

We are, as you know, a free-admission museum,

and membership is one of the ways we're able to stay that way,

so that support's vital.

If you're not a member and would like to become one,

it's really easy and fast,

and you can do it on our website, planetwordmuseum.org.

And I think that is it for housekeeping, so we can dive in.

I'm delighted to introduce our guest, James Pennebaker,

who's a psychologist at the University of Texas, Austin,

joining us from steamy Austin.

He's also, he's on our advisory board at the museum,

and our founder, Ann Friedman,

really credits his book, The Secret Life of Pronouns,

with really influencing the way she thought about the content when forming Planet Word.

So he's had a very formative voice

in understanding the role words play in life and language.

So we are delighted to have him here tonight.

James Pennebaker, welcome and thanks for being here.

James Pennebaker: It's so great to be here, and I love Planet Word and what you,

what Ann Friedman and the entire group has done has been amazing.

RR: Well, thank you. Yeah, we're pretty proud of it.

It must be said. [laughs]

So The Secret Life of Pronouns is sort of about how those little functional words,

articles and pronouns and words that we don't pay a lot of attention to,

can actually say a lot about who we are and what we're like.

And that's not really the topic of what we're talking about tonight,

but I'd love to sort of get that perspective

on that connection between the way we use language and the way we live our lives.

JP: So I've lived this interesting research life,

and I actually started off as a social psychologist in it,

looking at the groups, and behaviors, and health and things like that,

and I stumbled into this world of expressive writing,

which we'll be talking about today,

where I discovered that if people are asked to write about upsetting experiences,

it had a powerful impact on their physical and mental health.

From that work on writing,

I discovered that the ways people wrote made a difference,

and all of a sudden, I became interested in,

how do you measure the ways people write?

And I ended up working with students to create a computer program

called Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count, L-I-W-C or LIWC.

And the LIWC program could go into any given text and analyze language,

and what I discovered was that a lot of words that I'd never paid any attention to

were related to personality, to the ways people thought,

the way they organized things, the way they connected with others,

and then there were these little dumb words, pronouns,

prepositions, articles, conjunctions, auxiliary verbs.

Who cares about those? I certainly didn't.

And...

But then I started to discover it was those words

that said the most about personality and psychological state,

and they were even relevant to expressive writing.

So that's what motivated me into the world of words,

which I'm not sure I would have ever gone into, but I had no choice.

The words, the pronouns were calling.

RR: Yes. Well, when you get sucked into the world of words,

it's a little bit like, you know, the Hotel California around here.

JP: That's right.

RR: So just so that we're defining our terms from the beginning,

tell us what expressive writing is.

JP: So, "expressive writing" is a kind of a generic term

for a technique of writing

whereby individuals write about,

it could be an upsetting experience, it could be a positive experience,

but emotionally significant experience,

for relatively briefly, maybe 10, 15 minutes a time,

maybe once a day, maybe for three or four consecutive days.

It could be more, it could be less.

There's no hard and fast rules,

but it's essentially a focused kind of writing

where the person is simply exploring their thoughts and feelings about an issue.

And what I've always felt it was, was kind of a life course correction.

So here we all are floating in life,

being buffeted by often upsetting experiences like COVID,

like Black Lives Matter, like other kinds of issues that are deeply personal.

And often we don't talk about them, we keep them to ourselves,

but they're there, we mull over them.

We sometimes have trouble sleeping because we're thinking about it,

and then we sometimes say, "Well, I should talk to somebody about it.

No, no, I'm not going to do that

because it would just upset them, and it would upset me.

Or I could write about it. No, that would just upset me more."

But the reality is, is that what I discovered was that

by writing briefly about that thing, those things that were bothering you,

it brought about these really impressive changes.

So that's, so expressive writing is different

from diary writing or writing in a journal.

By doing it, I am not asking you to devote the rest of your life to writing.

It's just, it's a brief fix that can be beneficial.

RR: And is it meant to be shared?

JP: If you want. I don't really care.

In fact, that's the beauty of it. There are no hard and fast rules.

I never share it.

When I write, I write it, and I might save it somewhere,

sometimes I'll throw it away,

but I view the writing,

the process of writing is primarily for myself.

It's not for an audience.

It's for me to try to understand what's going on in my life

with these issues that are bothering me.

RR: And you've been studying this for decades.

How do you go about attaching some sort of a quantifiable outcome

to expressive writing?

JP: So I started this, the first article on this was published in 1986,

so it goes back a long time.

And I actually haven't been doing that much work on it for the last 20 years

because other people are doing some remarkable work.

But the idea of it,

the idea of it was...

What I had found prior to the first expressive writing study

was that people who had had traumatic experiences

and had not talked about them with others

were more likely to get sick after that event

than those people who had the same kind of traumatic experience,

but who did talk to others.

And so it occurred to me that it was related to physical health

and that if we could bring people in the laboratory

and have them write about some kind of upsetting experience,

I would, my sense was it would help them to organize it, to understand it,

to think about it,

and then it would improve, ultimately improve their health.

And the way it would improve their health was, think about what talking does.

I'm upset about something, I go and talk to you, for example,

and as I'm talking, I start to understand it better.

And just putting it into words will bring about some kind of understanding for me.

And in doing that, I won't,

there's no reason for me to continue thinking about it.

And what my brain is doing when I've had an upsetting experience is,

my brain is trying to understand, "What in the world happened?

How can I avoid that in the future? What role did I play?"

And what writing does is, it serves those functions,

and if I do that, I'll sleep better,

and we know that sleep is related to health,

and we know this reduces general stress.

There've been now over 1,000 studies on expressive writing,

and you just stand back and you look at them all,

and it really does paint this interesting picture

that writing helps sleep, it helps immune function,

it reduces cardiovascular load,

and it's associated with all of these markers.

And after people write about it, it frees their mind, in a sense.

There's a lot of work on working memory,

that when we have, when we're under stress,

when we're bugged about something, we keep thinking about it,

which makes it harder for us to remember.

Many people talk about when they're under stress, their memory goes to hell,

and it does go to hell because you are processing,

you're processing this upsetting experience

and not these other things going on in your life.

And once that your mind is stilled, if you like, from writing about it,

you are a better listener, you're a better friend.

And we have some data to suggest that people are more connected with others

when they write about upsetting experiences.

RR: Well, I find it so interesting that the therapeutic benefits

of sorting out the story, making some sense of it,

turning it into a narrative, and then kind of letting it go, you know,

are in the writing because in the talking, you're also adding sympathy from a friend,

a social connection, you know, other things that are also therapeutic.

So it's interesting to me that it's the writing that's the key.

JP: Now, I'm not going to say that's the key.

I think putting it into words is a primary key.

But one thing that is the downside of talking is, yes, if I tell you my story

and you say, "Oh, Jamie, I can see why you're so upset.

I completely validate your existence," I'm going to feel great.

But if you say, "Wow, you are such a fool. No wonder that happened to you,"

that's going to be worse than my not saying anything.

So, so much depends on how the other people are affected by it.

And one reason we keep secrets is because we are concerned

that what we say might adversely affect our friendships with others.

And they can. They really can.

So I think that's, you're always having to play off,

is it safe to talk to this other person about this?

Whereas with writing, you don't even have to answer that, ask that question.

RR: Yeah, the paper doesn't talk back.

JP: Yes.

RR: I should say that in addition to this just sort of being

a fascinating exploration of words,

one of the reasons we're talking about this now is,

there was a New York Times article probably about six weeks ago,

end of June, that talked about the need to make sense of the pandemic,

that especially at the end of June,

before the Delta variant had been so emergent,

people were sort of feeling like they were on the cusp of re-entering life,

and they wanted to celebrate and put this behind us and look forward, not back,

and it was, you know, there is benefit in processing a trauma,

and pushing it behind you and, you know,

soldiering on is not necessarily the way to get through it.

What are you thinking about the power of expressive writing

in the context of this pandemic?

JP: No, I think, as with any upsetting experience,

that writing can be beneficial.

And I want to make it clear, I'm not a salesman.

I'm not selling a product, and it doesn't always work.

It's, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

The research evidence suggests that it probably does.

For you scientists out there, the effect size is about a point...

between a .13, maybe a .18,

something like that.

But those are fairly big effects when you're looking at real-world behaviors.

And what that means is, if you set aside 15 minutes a day for three or four days

to write about your thoughts and feelings about the pandemic

and the way that you're dealing with it, thinking about it,

there is a decent chance that this will help you sleep better,

this will help you

negotiate an easier, happier, healthier life.

It's highly unlikely that it's going to completely change your mind,

and it's highly unlikely it's going to make anything worse.

And sometimes we find that writing in one occasion works,

and then you write it again

the next time you have an upsetting experience,

it doesn't seem to do much, much good.

But my attitude is, come on, it's free, it's easy to do, there are no rules,

and it's a very simple tool to try out.

RR: Well, if people want to try it out, how do we go about starting?

Okay, let's do it.

RR: All right.

JP: So I'm going, I want to give everybody just a simple opportunity to do this.

What I'd like you to do is, you can get pen and paper,

you can type, you know, open Word and you can type there,

or you can do something that I have found to be helpful is finger writing,

which means you need to get out your finger and then you can just write in the air.

And what I'm going to do is, I want you to,

in just a minute, you're going to write for about five minutes,

and in your writing, as soon as we begin,

I want you to really let go and to address a topic that is bugging you, bothering you.

Now, I don't want you to deal with a major traumatic experience right now.

We don't have time.

So five minutes is good for that annoying neighbor to write about,

but it's not, we're not going to be...

I don't recommend writing about how you were abused as a child,

or the murder you committed.

So let's keep this... [laughs] I know about you out there.

I want you to think about something that is an annoyance

and in your writing, just let go and write.

Now, what do you write about? I don't know.

Just, you might even begin, "Why is this event bothering me so much?"

What is it that is just getting, gnawing at me

and affecting my sleep or I'm thinking about too much?"

So that's it.

So over the years, I've had thousands of people do this,

do this test (we'll do it one more time before it's over tonight),

and many people expect that after that writing,

that they will feel much more free and happy and joyous.

But the reality is, most of you probably

are feeling a little bit worse, and you're thinking,

"Thanks a lot, Jamie. That's just why I came here."

What's interesting about this is, when people first get into a topic,

if you're successful, you start to get a better sense of what the issue is,

what the problem is.

I see Holly Hexter writes that with her writing,

she's starting to understand the issues better,

but she doesn't have a solution.

And in some ways, having a solution is,

that's down the road often.

But just a mere clarification of the question,

just labeling the issue often is really beneficial.

And these are some of the dimensions that we've discovered over the years

about writing that makes it so interesting.

It seems to make a difference for several reasons.

One is just the mere labeling of an experience,

and similarly, an acknowledgment that it actually happened.

But a second is, is that by writing about it,

it forces some structure.

It's really interesting.

There's historically been all of this research looking at what happens

in terms of the ways that we represent something.

So we all have a sense of how a person thinks or feels or whatever,

how we think and feel,

but then when we try to encapsulate it into words, we have to restructure it.

We have to simplify it and organize it,

and that simplification and organization may distort it some,

but hey, who cares?

It's now more organized,

and which also means that you're going to be obsessing about it less.

And then another important issue

is the acknowledgment of the emotions that are associated with it.

And so all of these things: the labeling, the emotions,

the organization and structure,

and ultimately meaning, finding some meaning or value to it,

is another thing that that often occurs.

Another thing that I've loved about this,

and I can't... I started all this when I was in my 30s,

and I was not the most introspective person you've ever met.

I believe my wife will back me up on this,

and she might even say that I'm still not the most introspective person

that she's met.

I don't know why.

But I was...

One thing that struck me from the very beginning was,

often I'd be dealing with an issue,

and I'd sit down and I'd start writing about it,

and after about two or three minutes, I'd be so bored with what I was writing with,

and I realized that wasn't the issue at all,

and all of a sudden, my writing would take me in a really different direction,

and that was the thing that was really gnawing at me more,

almost using the writing in this really loose way

to help guide my thinking about something,

and I think anybody who has a job that involves writing in some way.

So I'm, as a researcher, I do a lot of writing

of papers and chapters and things like that,

and every time I write a paper,

the paper ends up being a different paper than I started

because the words took me in a different direction

that really demanded a kind of structure

that my pre-existing expectations didn't fit.

So that's a long, long answer to your question, Rebecca.

RR: Well, the five minutes was an interesting time frame, though.

It started to feel a little long for writing about a minor annoyance,

and that did make you go a level deeper.

You know, and finally, by the end of it, I was like,

"I've already wasted too much time on this stupid little thing.

It's minor." [laughs]

Yeah, five minutes is enough in a lot of ways, it felt like,

although you cautioned us not to take on anything too huge with...

JP: Yeah. Well, and, you know, when I did the very first studies,

I had people write 20 minutes for four consecutive days.

But, you know, I didn't know how long to have people write.

And we found really good effects.

People, our very first studies were with college students

at a private college I was teaching at at the time where all the students,

most of the students were from out of state, and they all lived on campus,

and the health center was right in the middle of all the dorms,

which I later learned was just the way you want to do research on health,

because if the doctor is close, people are more likely to go.

But what we found was that people who wrote about these traumatic experiences

for four days, 20 minutes a day,

ended up going to the Student Health Center at about half the rates

as people in our control conditions over the next several months.

In our second study, we worked with

Jan Kiecolt-Glaser and her husband, Ron Glaser,

who were doing work on immunology and psychoneuroimmunology.

And we drew blood before they were assigned to condition and then afterwards

and after writing it in six weeks later,

and we found that writing

was associated with improved immune function as well.

And other studies started to show these same kinds of effects.

But what was interesting is, the first study we had four,

right, four times, 20 minutes a time.

The second study, I didn't have as much time to do the study,

so we had to write only 15 minutes, and that worked fine.

And then the next study, I thought, "Well, let's try three days."

So we had to do three days, 15 minutes a time.

And then other labs started doing different work.

So Laura King and her group at University of Missouri

tried having people write five minutes and two minutes,

and even that brought about positive effects.

So there's no one true way here.

And if it's one, two, three, four, five times,

they all seem to work.

My gut sense is kind of a minimum of twice would probably be a good idea,

and three might even be better.

Anyway, a lot depends on the issues that you're dealing with.

RR: Do you find that there's a measurable difference in effect

depending on the issue you're dealing with?

JP: No. I mean, that's what's so...

This is, maybe this is one reason there have been over 1,000 studies is,

everybody is trying to figure out, "Well, what's the perfect way of writing?

Surely those first instructions aren't the perfect instructions."

And no, they're not.

But it seems like almost any instruction works,

and it seems like how long you write seems to work.

There's...

And, you know, for me, I don't write that often.

I write when, you know, horrible things happen,

but not that horrible,

but the kind of stuff that I go to bed and I either can't fall asleep

or wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it.

And that might be once or twice a year.

And sometimes I write for two minutes, sometimes I write for 20 minutes.

Sometimes I write twice. Usually I just write once,

and typically that's beneficial.

RR: You mentioned your own lack of introspection.

Are there types of people that it's more effective for?

JP: And again, dozens of studies have tried to identify the types of people.

The very first study suggested that men would benefit more.

We all went, "Oh, that makes sense."

And then the next study found that women benefited more.

And other people said, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense."

RR: [laughs]

JP: And there have been all these studies,

and it seems as though men and women both benefit at about the same rates.

And neurotic people and non-neurotic, they all seem to benefit as well.

RR: And is there anything in the style of writing or word choice

that is effective?

JP: Um...

You know, there are certain things that are kind of important.

One is, is being self-reflective seems to be really important.

Another one is, there's a big difference between writing and bitching.

So if your writing is just whining and complaining and blowing off steam,

we've typically found that not to be beneficial.

Also, starting off with a good, coherent story

with the beginning, middle and end, is associated with no health improvements,

probably because you already have a story.

And one of the things that I think writing does is,

it pushes people to come up with a story.

And one other thing that we find is,

people benefit the most

when they are able to change their perspective in their writing.

In other words, if you're writing the same kind of story

on the last day of writing as the first day, you don't benefit,

and in fact, you may just be ruminating.

And that's almost the definition of depression.

That is when you're telling the same story over and over again,

you just aren't...

There's no change. There's no benefit that's accruing.

So I think part of it is working to come to a different understanding

of what that experience was.

RR: I found myself just, I think, out of habit, writing in the first person,

writing specifically about sort of my thoughts and feelings.

I didn't pay any attention to narrative arc,

or character development, or things that actually make it more of a story,

and I certainly wasn't eloquent or lyrical in any way.

JP: And that's...

Actually, that's what I kind of like to see on the first day of writing is,

or the first episode of writing, where it's more kind of a brain dump

where you're just, you're describing what happened,

you're confused about things.

That makes sense.

That's kind of what you would expect,

and that narrative comes later.

RR: Should we try it again? Are we ready to try it again?

JP: Sure. It continues to be free.

Okay, so this time you can write about the same event, a different event.

It's entirely up to you.

Or you might even try to connect that event with something else.

And I want you to this time, again,

really try to get into the experience and explore your thoughts and feelings

in terms of how it's affected you.

And... Well, I'm going to leave it at that.

So what I'm guessing is,

many of you feel a little bit better after that second time.

How about you, Rebecca? Do you feel better?

RR: Yeah.

JP: That's the correct answer.

RR: [laughs] That's a good thing.

JP: Yeah, exactly. Yes.

Would have been a real shame to have to replace you.

RR: [laughs] If I were sitting here in tears, yeah.

JP: So we're not going to do any more writing,

but the goal of this really has been just to give you a sense of how writing works.

There's no magic to it,

and at the very beginning,

someone asked the difference between this and journaling.

I view journaling as a more life-intensive approach to writing,

or...

And I think I probably always avoided diaries and journals

because it just seems like so much pressure,

"Oh, God, don't make me write again today,"

whereas this is, it's more an as-needed approach.

It's kind of the penicillin of writing.

You know, you don't need penicillin all the time,

and don't take too much penicillin.

But when you need it, take it, and when you don't need it,

go and enjoy life.

I find too much introspection can be a bad thing, that often...

So, for example, when something good happens to me,

the last thing on Earth I want to do is be too introspective,

because I want to really jump in and really relish the joy of what's happening.

So that's my, again, I'm interjecting my own personal philosophy here.

RR: Instead of watching yourself enjoy it.

JP: Exactly. RR: [unclear] why you're not enjoying it.

JP: That's right. That's right.

I also wondered if, and I realized that not only was the second five minutes

a little bit more productive for me and the writing was a little better,

have you found people who turn this into kind of an art form

and realize, "What I'm actually here doing is poetry," or, you know, writing a memoir?

JP: You know, I have had people tell me that,

and you can see how easily

by starting this,

it can help take you down a number of different roads

that can satisfy probably your curiosity, or stories you've wanted to tell,

or ways of organizing your life, or ways of putting together stories

that could benefit the next generation.

There's so many ways that this writing strategy,

I think, can affect us.

RR: Do you have hints for people who might feel sort of stuck

or want to get at the heart of the matter faster?

JP: No. What I...

I've always been interested in writer's block,

and I think anybody who writes professionally,

that happens to occasionally.

And what I... I use writing often sometimes almost as free writing.

So I'm...

For example, I recently started a chapter.

It was the last thing on earth I wanted to write,

and I couldn't get started.

The hardest thing for me is getting started.

And so I started off, "Why is this..."

So this is I'm writing the paper.

"Why is this so hard? What does it matter?"

And I would come back the next day, the same thing, start trying to explore it.

And then all of a sudden,

"Well, I know I want to say dadadadada, and then dadadadada,"

and all of a sudden I'm off to the races.

What I tell people,

if you have trouble writing about an upsetting experience,

just repeat what you've already written.

Just the rule that I used to always give people is,

just start writing and write continuously.

If you run out of things, repeat what you've written.

And, you know, I've seen thousands of writing samples,

and it's true, a small number of people do repeat themselves

maybe for two or three times,

but after two or three times, that's too boring,

and then they go off on their own.

RR: I suspect I know the answer to this,

since you suggested people write with their finger,

but do you ever recommend people go back and reread what they've written?

JP: Again, the big individual differences, when I started this,

one of my graduate students, Martha Francis,

she, I think she came to work with me

because she was interested in the writing work I was doing,

and she wrote, and she always went back

and would go back and read what she had written and then edit it.

And she always felt that that worked much better than regular writing.

And I believe her.

I would never do that myself.

I've gone back and looked at my old writing,

and I look, it's so depressing,

and I think, "I can't believe I'm the most depressive person in the world,"

but I only write when I'm down.

So for me...

So I think people need to approach it

any way that they think best.

RR: We have a question from Sarah who says,

"I found that each time,

I ended up posing so many questions to myself.

What's that about?"

JP: I don't know, Sarah. I don't know.

I mean, that's in some ways almost the point

is that it's clear that you are now digging into this and becoming more curious about

what are the issues that are going on here.

So, yeah, those questions probably have needed to be asked,

and I'm glad you did that.

RR: Lana in the chat says,

"For bilingual people, does it make a difference

what language the creative writing is done?

Is mother tongue better than language learned?

And by 'better' meaning, is it more effective?"

JP: Well, that's a wonderful question.

We've done some work on issues associated with bilingual issues.

In fact, somebody who is here today, Nairán Ramírez,

has done some of this work, and also another student, Youngsuk Kim,

And with this, what we find is that people who write in

in general, writing in English versus your native tongue,

it doesn't seem to make a huge difference.

And one of the studies that we did in our lab,

we found that the people who actually went back and forth

between language and their native tongue,

they tended to benefit more than people who wrote just in one language.

And I think part of that is that by writing in two languages,

it forces a kind of a different organizational structure

because the languages draw on different life experience,

different emotional issues as well.

So I think in some ways, if you can do both,

that might be worth experimenting with.

RR: It's an interesting question.

I mean, I am, to my shame, monolingual English,

but when I talk to people who are fluent in more than one language,

choosing which emotion to express in which language is conscious, right?

JP: That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

RR: Someone asks where your studies are published.

JP: If you go to my website,

you can see links to where they're published.

I have published a lot of articles, and they are mostly in psychology journals,

sometimes they'll be in more... broader journals,

and occasionally in all sorts.

They're everywhere. They're everywhere.

RR: Yeah, I mean, the New York Times article

referenced you have been studying this for 30 years.

Is that right?

JP: I'd say longer. So let's go with 35.

Let's see... Yeah, yeah, I'd say it's 35 since the first publication on writing.

RR: Huh. Um...

Michelle asks, "Would there be too many times

to write about the same thing?"

Would there be too many times to write about the same thing?

Like if you feel like you haven't come to a conclusion,

could it end up just becoming ruminating or just not figuring it out yet?

JP: So I, again, I just speak from my own personal experience,

if you write about the same thing,

and you write about it the same way over and over again, multiple times,

it's not going to get it...

continued writing is probably not going to make any difference.

And so either change the way you're writing about it,

or go do something else.

Go jogging. Go to a bar.

RR: Right.

JP: Yoga or something healthy.

RR: Just some other way of clearing your mind.

JP: That's right. That's right.

RR: I'm really actually interested in this aspect of using writing to clear your mind,

because you would think that, as Michelle alluded to,

in some ways it concentrates your mind on the subject,

but the fact that that is then freeing is a step I hadn't really considered.

JP: You know, it's very interesting.

Larry Wright wrote a really interesting book on Scientology.

The name of it was Going Clear,

and within Scientology, something that I do not subscribe to,

the idea is to... clearing your mind, essentially.

But this idea of having a clear mind

is at the heart of all sorts of meditations and others,

and I feel as though this is one thing

that expressive writing, and therapy,

and other ways of coming to terms with something,

can help us to clear our minds.

In fact, one of the first places I saw this was many years ago.

Daryl Bem, who was doing some interesting work on hypnosis,

what he would do before he would try to hypnotize people,

he'd have them come in and write. "Write out what is on your mind right now."

And he found if he did that, they were much more susceptible to hypnosis

because they were rehearsing the issues that they were dealing with.

RR: Wow. Somebody asks,

"Does the timing of the writing after the event matter?

For example, close to the event or long after it?"

JP: That's a great question.

Yes. I think expressive writing immediately after a terrible trauma

is probably a bad idea.

I think... And there's some evidence for this from multiple quarters.

For example, there used to be a very popular critical incident stress debriefing

that immediately after a horrible car accident or something,

that first responders should immediately get into it

and start talking and doing emotional processing.

And there's some work to suggest

that that's probably harmful for some people.

My general rule is, if you find yourself thinking about something too much,

writing can be beneficial.

And by "too much," that's,

you're thinking about it at this level that's above what anybody would expect.

So if you've had a horrible, traumatic experience,

and you're thinking about it all the time today and tomorrow or the day afterwards,

that's normal.

That's not too much. That's within the normal.

But if you're still thinking about it all the time a year from now, that's too much.

If you find that you've run out of friends to go and talk to about it,

and your friends are avoiding you when they see you

because you're going to talk about it,

that's a sign that writing might be beneficial.

RR: We have a question says,

"I'm a recently graduated BSN student, soon to be an RN.

As a future medical professional,

I'd love to carry this tool into my clinical practice.

I'm interested in exploring

how this therapeutic tool is currently being utilized."

JP: So, it's being used in all sorts of places,

and one place, if you're interested in the literature,

that I would recommend doing, go to Google Scholar,

and in Google Scholar, just enter "expressive writing,"

and in this case, "nursing,"

and you will see multiple studies that have been done in nursing,

at least on the research side.

And once you see who's doing it on the research side,

you can email those people and ask, are they doing this in practice?

Where are they doing it?

So I know it is being done in nursing, and I know it's being done in social work.

It's being done in all sorts of professions.

Variations of it are very common now in prisons and just all over the place.

So this is a fairly broad strategy.

RR: So we are almost out of time,

but I want to sort of say if people are interested in exploring this,

will you give them some kind of...

I know you've said it, it's really up to you,

but some best practices, some ways to get started, some things to think about,

just some guidance about how to explore this for themselves?

JP: You bet.

Also, I want to call out to Cindy Chung, who's here today as well.

She's part of the...

She's worked also on the board with the museum.

And Cindy has been critical in my development in terms of expressive writing,

but especially with language and words,

and so she's somebody who is a, has really made a difference, I think,

in the Word Museum, but also just in working in my lab for years.

Okay, in terms of best practices,

this is not magic, it's not a panacea,

but it generally works,

and if you find that you're thinking about something too much,

just set aside some time where you're going to be by yourself

and promise yourself that you'll write,

let's say, at least three times, at least 10 minutes each time.

What you do with the writing, it doesn't matter.

The primary issue is, you don't want it to be left out

where someone else could read it and it would hurt their feelings,

it would hurt your feelings or whatever.

So be careful with your writing.

And that's one reason, actually, why I like finger writing.

Another is, if you find that you're not making headway,

that you're saying the same thing over and over again,

you're not finding it beneficial, that tells me that it's not beneficial.

Try something else or change your perspective in your writing.

I do not recommend writing this as a letter to somebody else,

especially someone else and then you're planning to send it.

I think that writing is best when you know this is for you.

I suppose writing a letter that you know you're not going to write might be good,

but writing what you've, mailing off what you've written,

I think that changes the way that you are constructing this in your mind,

that the writing needs to be for yourself.

I think the most important thing for me, and I say this now as a researcher myself,

is, be an experimentalist.

I want you to, don't trust anything I've said.

See what works for you.

And, you know, some people think you should write with your non-dominant hand. Try it.

Some people think you should, you know, who knows, write in blood.

If you want, try it. The point...

RR: [laughs]

JP: Yeah. Yeah. I don't recommend it.

But some people find that setting up a ritual when you write,

you know, lighting a candle or things like that,

try it. Try things, and see what works,

and take some notes.

So that... One thing that I think is a really good marker is,

how well are you sleeping?

Do you have a Fitbit or something like that that can tell you how well you're sleeping

or you're...

When you wake up, can you make some note of how well you're sleeping?

Are you trying to lose weight?

Are you trying to stop smoking or trying to drink less?

All of those might be things for you just to monitor

and see if writing is having an effect.

So work to find out what works, what feels best when you write,

but also be a scientist and start to measure some of your own behavior

to try to get a sense of what is bringing about change with you.

So those are some of my general recommendations.

RR: Excellent.

Well, James Pennebaker, it's been an absolute pleasure

talking to you for the last hour.

Thank you so much for joining us.

JP: It's been a treat talking with you as well.

RR: And thank you all so much

for being here and for your ongoing support of Planet Word.

We hope you'll come see us in person soon. Good night.