Don't Get Down-Leveled or How to Tell a Good Story (From a Principal at Amazon)

Summary

This video script addresses the common issue of 'down leveling' in job interviews, where candidates may be offered a lower position than they believe they deserve. The speaker, a principal engineer with extensive interview experience, shares insights on why companies practice down leveling and offers strategies to avoid it. He emphasizes the importance of aligning one's narrative with the target company's expectations and using the STAR method to craft impactful stories that demonstrate one's capabilities without exaggeration or dishonesty.

Takeaways

• 🌐 Companies often have different leveling systems, which can lead to potential job offers at a lower level than expected.
• 🔄 It's important to accept a job offer at the right level to avoid the struggle for a promotion to reach the level you deserve.
• 💼 The speaker is a Principal Engineer with extensive experience in technical interviews and has conducted over 800 interviews for Amazon.
• 📉 Hiring at too high a level can have long-term negative consequences, including termination, which is why companies may employ 'down leveling' as a risk management strategy.
• 🤔 There are two cases to consider if you feel you've been down leveled: the company might have correctly assessed your level, or they might have made a mistake.
• 🔍 Researching company levels on sites like levels.fyi or Glassdoor can help understand the expectations and relative levels across companies.
• 📈 A strong behavioral interview component can help ensure you're not down leveled and can even save an interview if the technical parts were mediocre.
• 📊 Use the STAR method (Situation, Task, Action, Results) not as a story generator but as a 'linter' to ensure your stories have substance and a clear point.
• 📚 Start your story by anchoring it to your status and responsibilities, then introduce challenges and obstacles to demonstrate your capabilities at the targeted level.
• 🙅‍♂️ Avoid making up stories or describing villains; keep the narrative professional and focused on demonstrating your ability to overcome challenges.
• 🎯 The depth of the challenges in your stories should be commensurate with the level you're targeting, and the outcome should be positive but not overly perfect to maintain authenticity.

Q & A

Why might a company offer a job at a lower level than expected?

A company might offer a job at a lower level to hedge against risk, especially if there's ambiguity during the interview about the candidate's current operating level.

What is the term used for the situation where a job offer is made at a lower level than the candidate expects?

This situation is referred to as 'down leveling'.

How can a candidate determine if the level offered by a company is appropriate for their experience?

Candidates can use websites like levels.fyi or Glassdoor to get a sense of level expectations and how they compare across companies.

What is the role of a 'bar raiser' in the context of Amazon's hiring process?

A 'bar raiser' at Amazon is a senior employee who trains others on how to conduct technical interviews and run debriefs, ensuring the quality of the hiring process.

Why is it important for a candidate to accurately represent their level during the interview process?

Accurately representing one's level is crucial to avoid being mismatched with a role, which can lead to discomfort, poor performance, and potential termination.

What are the two types of questions typically asked during technical interviews?

Technical interviews usually consist of functional questions, which test technical knowledge, and behavioral questions, which assess past experiences and behaviors.

What can cause a candidate to be down leveled during the interview process?

Down leveling can occur if a candidate performs well in one area (either functional or behavioral) but not the other, creating an imbalance in the perceived level of expertise.

What is the STAR method and how is it typically used in interviews?

STAR stands for Situation, Task, Action, Results, and it is a method used to structure responses to behavioral interview questions, ensuring a clear narrative of past experiences.

Why is it suggested not to use the STAR method as a story generator in interviews?

The STAR method should not be used as a story generator because it focuses too much on what happened rather than developing the character of the candidate, which is important for showing fit with the company's needs.

What is the alternative story shape recommended in the script for interview responses?

The alternative story shape recommended is a simple U-shape, starting with the status and responsibilities, followed by challenges, and ending with an imperfect but positive success.

Why should candidates avoid making up stories or exaggerating their experiences during an interview?

Candidates should avoid fabrication because it can damage their credibility if they cannot answer follow-up questions or if the story is inconsistent with their actual experiences.

What should be the focus of a candidate's story when describing their experiences in an interview?

The focus should be on showing how the candidate's actions and responsibilities align with the level they are targeting, demonstrating their ability to handle challenges appropriate to that level.

How can candidates ensure their interview stories are authentic and not perceived as fluff?

Candidates can ensure authenticity by anchoring their stories on their actual status and responsibilities, describing real challenges, and avoiding the creation of villains or perfect outcomes.

Outlines

00:00

🤔 The Risks of Down Leveling in Job Offers

The paragraph discusses the complexities of company leveling systems and the risk of being offered a position at a lower level than one's capabilities. It emphasizes the importance of being hired at the right level to avoid the struggle for promotion to reach one's deserved position. The speaker, a principal engineer with extensive interview experience at Amazon, shares insights on why companies might down level candidates and offers strategies to avoid this situation. The focus is on the importance of aligning one's technical interview performance with the expectations for the desired level within a company.

05:01

📚 Understanding Leveling and Interview Dynamics

This paragraph delves into the reasons companies may hire at a lower level than a candidate's capabilities, highlighting the long-term consequences and the resources wasted in correcting such mistakes. It introduces two scenarios where down leveling might occur: when the company correctly assesses the candidate's level or when they mistakenly underestimate it. The speaker advises on using resources like 'levels.fyi' or 'Glassdoor' for research and emphasizes the importance of honesty with oneself and being realistic about one's capabilities and the company's level expectations.

10:02

📈 Crafting Impactful Stories for Technical Interviews

The speaker provides guidance on effectively using storytelling during technical interviews to convey one's capabilities and suitability for the position. They critique the traditional STAR (Situation, Task, Action, Results) method, suggesting it focuses too much on recounting events rather than character development. Instead, they propose starting with one's status and responsibilities, then introducing challenges and obstacles, and finally describing overcoming them to achieve success. The 'U-shape' story structure is recommended for its ability to convey the magnitude of impact and problem-solving abilities, which can help avoid down leveling.

15:03

🚫 Avoiding Pitfalls in Storytelling and Interview Preparation

The final paragraph warns against the temptation to fabricate stories or exaggerate one's experiences during interviews, as this can damage credibility and lead to a failed interview. It advises keeping stories professional, avoiding the creation of 'villains,' and ensuring that stories end with an imperfect but positive success to maintain authenticity. The speaker also suggests using the STAR method as a 'linter' to ensure substance in stories, rather than a strict formula. The goal is to make it easy for interviewers to gauge one's level by demonstrating the ability to handle challenges appropriate to the targeted level.

🌟 Embracing the Power of Storytelling in Professional Growth

In the concluding paragraph, the speaker reflects on the innate human tendency to connect through stories and encourages embracing this in professional settings. They acknowledge that while it may feel artificial at times, storytelling is a fundamental way to convey one's narrative and experiences. The speaker invites viewers to engage with the content, suggesting that with practice, one can become a compelling storyteller, enhancing their professional interactions and growth.

Keywords

💡Leveling Systems

Leveling systems in the context of the video refer to the hierarchical career progression structures within companies, which can vary significantly from one organization to another. The video discusses the challenges and risks associated with these systems, such as being offered a position at a lower level than one's capabilities. The speaker emphasizes the importance of aligning with the right level within a company to avoid potential issues down the line.

💡Down Leveling

Down leveling is the practice of offering a job candidate a position at a lower level than they believe they deserve or are capable of. The video explains how this can occur due to ambiguity in the interview process or a company's risk management strategy. It is a key issue because it can lead to dissatisfaction and a sense of being undervalued.

💡Technical Interviews

Technical interviews are a critical part of the hiring process, especially in the tech industry, where candidates are assessed on their technical skills and problem-solving abilities. The video mentions that the speaker has conducted over 800 technical interviews, indicating the importance of these interviews in determining an applicant's level and suitability for a role.

💡Behavioral Questions

Behavioral questions in interviews are designed to evaluate a candidate's past experiences, behaviors, and how they might handle situations in the future. The video suggests that how one performs on behavioral questions can significantly influence whether they are down leveled or not, as they reveal the candidate's ability to meet the expectations of the role.

💡Bar Raiser

A 'Bar Raiser' is a term used within Amazon to describe individuals who set and maintain high standards for hiring. The speaker identifies as a Bar Raiser, indicating their role in ensuring that only candidates who meet or exceed the company's standards are hired.

💡Debriefs

Debriefs are post-interview discussions among interviewers to assess a candidate's performance and suitability for a role. The video mentions that the speaker has conducted hundreds of debriefs, highlighting the structured and collaborative nature of the interview process.

💡Career Ambition

Career ambition refers to an individual's aspirations and goals within their professional life. The video touches on the idea that while it's good to be ambitious, it's also important to be realistic about one's level and capabilities when applying for jobs.

💡Storytelling in Interviews

Storytelling in interviews is a method of conveying one's experiences and skills in a narrative form that is engaging and memorable. The video emphasizes the importance of crafting effective stories that demonstrate a candidate's capabilities and fit for the role, using the STAR method as a tool for refining these stories.

💡STAR Method

The STAR method stands for Situation, Task, Action, and Result, a structured approach to answering behavioral interview questions. The video critiques the method as being too formulaic and suggests using it as a 'linter' to ensure substance in stories rather than as a strict template.

💡Imperfect Success

Imperfect success refers to a positive outcome that is not without its challenges or complications. The video advises against concluding interview stories with a 'perfect success' to maintain authenticity and realism, as life is often messy and solutions are rarely flawless.

💡Narrative Animals

The term 'narrative animals' is used in the video to describe humans' innate tendency to understand and connect with stories. It underscores the importance of storytelling in interviews, as it helps interviewers relate to the candidate's experiences and evaluate their fit for the role.

Highlights

The importance of leveling systems in job offers and the risk of being undervalued by companies.

The speaker's experience as a Principal Engineer at Amazon and their role as a bar raiser.

The potential long-term consequences of hiring at the wrong level and the use of down leveling as a risk management strategy.

The two cases to consider when feeling down leveled: the company might be right or they might have made an error.

Using sites like levels.fyi or Glassdoor to understand level expectations across different companies.

The limitations of using Blind for research due to potential inaccuracies in anonymous claims.

The importance of being honest with oneself and aligning one's level with the company's expectations.

The impact of interview performance on the level of job offer extended, focusing on both functional and behavioral questions.

The narrative structure of interviews and the importance of storytelling in showcasing one's capabilities.

Critique of the STAR method for story generation and a suggestion to use a simpler story shape instead.

The role of conflict and challenges in interview stories and how they reflect one's level of operation.

The importance of story authenticity and the risks associated with fabricating stories during interviews.

Avoiding the creation of villains in interview stories to maintain a professional tone.

The significance of concluding stories with an imperfect but positive outcome to reflect realism.

Strategies for mapping one's experiences to the target company's level expectations.

The advice against lying in interviews and the emphasis on spending energy on personal development instead.

Encouragement for viewers to engage with the content by liking, subscribing, and commenting for future video topics.

Reflection on the human connection through stories and the speaker's personal approach to storytelling.

Transcripts

in a perfect world every company would

have the same leveling systems

sadly this isn't the case

there's a very real risk that companies

see your potential but extend an offer

to you at a lower level

it sucks and it forces you into an

uncomfortable position

accepting the offer even if it's more

money at a better company

might feel like you're groveling at the

feet of their bad judgment it's just

better to come in at the right level

than to battle for a promotion just to

get where you should be

in this video i'll share with you the

reasons why this happens and show you

how to avoid it

meta here i'm a principal engineer and

i've conducted more than 800 technical

interviews for amazon during my 15 years

at the company i'm a bar raiser and i

train other amazonians how to conduct

technical interviews and how to run

debriefs

while i work at amazon these videos

express my own opinion and the contents

of the video do not contain amazon

confidential information i've run

hundreds of debriefs for engineering

loops this video will focus on technical

interviews but the concepts are also

useful when you're describing yourself

to potential new teams

talking with recruiters during

performance review time

or when you're making a stab for

promotion

pretty useful stuff

companies are trying to fill a specific

need when they decide to interview you

hiring somebody at too high of a level

has disastrous long-term consequences it

takes a long time to fix the problems of

getting someone's level wrong and it

usually will end poorly like in

termination

it also takes time and resources that no

team has to spare on top of being very

uncomfortable for all parties involved

so that's why companies employ down

leveling it's an easy way to hedge

against risk if there's any ambiguity

during the interview about what level

you're currently operating at if you

feel like you've been down leveled there

are two cases to consider

it very well may be that they got it

right

remember levels at a company are

relative you need to be open with the

possibility that they made a correct

determination of your level at their

company

perhaps you were the cto of a failed

startup with three engineers and they

gave you an offer of senior developer at

a mid-sized company you can scream all

day that you're being demoted from the

c-suite but in reality you aren't being

demoted you can use sites like levels

that fyi or glassdoor to get a sense of

levels across companies years of

relevant experience and expectations

when applying to companies

sometimes levels at one company straddle

two at another it's okay to be ambitious

if you're being realistic

be wary of sites like blind for this

sort of research

there are a lot of stories where people

brag that they receive de facto

promotions by moving companies

people say a lot of things when their

words can't be traced back to their

identities

sometimes it's true sometimes it isn't

the key here is to be honest with

yourself after doing your research while

it might be nice to get a title you

don't deserve you'll be in a world of

pain if you can't meet next level

expectations

your goal should always be to write

level yourself at the new company the

second case is that they just got it

wrong you actually operate at a higher

level and for some reason they just

don't see it

interviews consist of functional

questions and behavioral questions if

you bomb them no offer will be extended

if you do really well on both an offer

will be extended at the level you

applied for

down leveling happens in these two

quadrants if you had a barely passing

set of coding but you did really well in

behavioral questions or you did really

well in coding and design but you didn't

do a good job relating your experience

this is the down level zone

in both of these cases the behavioral

part of the interview is where the

opportunity is

a strong behavioral interview component

will ensure that you don't get down

level if you did really well in the

coding and design portions of the

interview and it can save an interview

loop if you just did mediocre on the

functional parts

humans are narrative animals

during the interview your job is to

convey to the interviewer that you have

what it takes to fill the need they have

think about trying to describe a good

friend to someone that hasn't met them

oh my buddy meta yeah he's he's good

he's smart

kind of funny

a little quirky

you know good stories for interviews

really just have one shape and form

bad stories can be bad for many reasons

but the most common is that you're

trying to tell the interviewer how good

you are when you should be focusing on

showing them how good you are

metta that guy

he's been in amazon for 15 years so he's

either tough as nails or really stupid

i don't know how he does it he's got

this demanding job just had a kid and he

still has time to make these quirky

youtube videos

classic meta

star stands for situation task action

results and it's the classic way folks

are trained to develop stories for

interviews you describe the situation

you were in what your task or mission

was the actions you took and the result

turns out it's a terrible algorithm for

generating stories

the problem

is that it's too focused on what

happened rather than developing the

character you

remember the point of these questions is

to determine that there's a good match

between you and what the company needs

the proper story the interviewer becomes

invested in you

what you should do instead is to use the

simplest of the story shapes

kurt vonnegut calls the story shape man

and a whole but it doesn't have to

involve a man nor does it have to

involve a whole

basically you start by anchoring the

story on your status and

responsibilities on a team by using

terms from the job description after you

have established this context you layer

in conflict challenges and obstacles you

want to lay it on thick here many layers

make it much more satisfying when you

finally overcome and achieve success

don't overthink it an effective story

has a general u-shape

the magnitude of the use signals to the

interviewer everything they need to know

about your level where the use starts

and ends tells the interviewer what

level you operated at and what type of

impact to expect if you were to join

how far the u dips tells the interviewer

what the size of the problems are that

you can deal with

so it turns out star is useful

don't use it as a story generator you

star as a linter on your story to make

sure that it has a point in other words

you start after you've crafted your

story to make sure the story has

substance

hey uh meta is it yeah cool can you hear

me

yeah i can hear you yeah i can hear you

cool um great thanks for taking the time

to interview with us

um can you tell me about a time you made

your team's processes software or system

simpler

uh okay yeah um

my team and i inherited some software

from another team

since it made sense for our team to own

it instead of their team

since our team provides a lot of the

data for the flagship feature of our

product

turns out it was really buggy

and was adding a lot of operational

burden to the team

and on top of that it had a dependency

on a library that represented a pretty

large security risk that was going to

take a long time to migrate away from

yeah

once we found the library though uh

corporate policy was that we immediately

migrate away from it

this was really bad since we had a big

launch coming up soon

i thought it'd be best to deprecate the

service so i worked with all of the

clients

of the service to move them off of it

and our existing software

it was a ton of work

but the

service now is decommissioned and we

don't get paged in the middle of the

night as much as we used to

uh the system architecture is is so much

simpler now and we know how our data is

being used downstream

um can you tell me about a time you made

your team's processes software or system

simpler

cool

yeah i was the team lead on a team of

eight sdes that was responsible for

several mission critical data plane

services for our flagship product

i was responsible for

not just the system components

or the features that my team owned but

really the team's architecture

i spoke with an adjacent team and we

decided that it made more sense if our

team took ownership of some software

they owned because it aligned with the

charter of our team much more than it

did theirs

turns out it was pretty buggy

but that wasn't a big deal after i

squashed the bugs and added unit tests

and integration tests

the big issues started cropping up later

it started paging our on-call engineers

late at night

people would just restart the process

and go back to sleep but when it was my

on-call

i dug into the issue and it turns out we

depend on sus4j

yeah sus4j

its usage is not allowed in the company

and we were on the hook for migrating

off of it

immediately we estimated that it would

take about a month of dev effort which

we didn't have because of an immovable

deadline two months away

i decided that the only reasonable

course of action was to decommission the

service

it wasn't going to be easy but it wasn't

going to be so bad because

the original reason i decided that the

team should inherit this service

was because it was so similar to the

services we already had

but we didn't know who was using the

legacy service

cool so uh what did you do

so um we turned pass-through mode on uh

through the service configuration which

requires clients to identify themselves

at request time

it didn't like stop them from you know

getting at the data that they needed

just sort of identified them

i analyzed the logs and created a

spreadsheet to track and it turns out we

have like 27 teams that use this service

i set up meetings with some of them and

it turns out most of them could get what

they needed from other services that we

owned

so i created a campaign to deprecate the

service we split the clients up amongst

my team members and i went to our vp to

get an exception

for

you know not removing sus4j for a couple

of months

we let the client teams know that the

service was going to be shut off in

three months and that we would provide

support to them to move to our existing

endpoints and you know by sort of by

analyzing their use cases

this was disruptive to our schedule but

it didn't blow up our project

there was one team though

that really pushed back on us

we didn't have any apis that could help

them and they escalated up the

management chain

after our big launch i was able to work

with them to design and deliver the

functionality that they needed

it was kind of painful though

because we didn't have bandwidth to work

with them while we were heads down

trying to launch even after we gave them

what they needed relations between our

team are a bit strained today

i think on balance it came

to a positive outcome though pretty

happy with the way that the architecture

looks afterwards

the magnitude of both sides of the u and

the depth of challenge you faced needs

to be commensurate with the level you're

targeting

if the challenges contained within your

story are small potatoes then you risk a

down level conversation same goes for

the sides how do you know it's big

enough because they are part of your

roles duties and responsibilities at the

level you're targeting the key is that

you make it easy for the interviewer to

make a relative judgment on your level

by anchoring them with your status and

demonstrating that you can rise to the

challenges appropriate to that level and

more importantly that you have

perspective on what it takes to operate

effectively at that level

if all of your stories make you sound

like a junior engineer solving junior

engineer problems you're not going to

get a senior engineer offer

just because you're using the same story

shape doesn't mean that you can't make

it your own you can make it funny

self-deprecating dramatic it's all up to

you

constraining the story shape doesn't

constrain your voice or make it

inauthentic

okay let's talk about making stuff up

don't do it there may be a chance that

you get away with it but more than

likely you won't be able to answer all

of the follow-up questions if these

stories don't come from lived experience

you had 123 girlfriends during college

yes

can you show me some pictures of them

no

are you being serious

yes

do you remember any of their names i

don't remember

that must have been a crazy time

it was a crazy time

if there's a suspicion you're telling

tall tales the most likely outcome is no

offer you can make a story easier to

understand by simplifying some details

or reordering the elements in the story

to make it flow better but don't risk

undermining your credibility by lying

just takes a little suspicion

you might be tempted to tell someone

else's story since you were close to the

action but you're unlikely to withstand

the follow-up questions because there's

too big of a gap between the

hypothetical and the actual

you can watch a bunch of youtube videos

about someone giving good advice that

doesn't mean you give good advice

you may be tempted to describe some

villains in your story since hey you're

the hero right

don't do it if you describe too much of

a bad guy the interviewer may conclude

that you were the actual villain keep it

professional and if there was some wrong

done to you make sure you don't describe

it as evil

this is especially important if you're

answering questions about working with a

difficult co-worker

finally when you conclude your story you

want to make sure that you never

describe a perfect success

life is too messy for everybody to live

happily ever after you want the ending

on balance to be positive

it really speaks to your perspective and

adds realism if everything is wrapped up

in too nice of a bow at the end

suspicion about the story's authenticity

is bound to creep in let's wrap up

levels are relative at different

companies map your experiences and work

to your target company and by using

sites like levels at fyi or glassdoor

get a sense of what expectations are at

each of their levels

you can try to get a promotion with a

move but it's in your best interest to

come in at the right level when down

leveling happens it's usually because of

answers on behavioral portions of the

interviews because if you did poorly on

the tech parts they wouldn't extend an

offer

humans are narrative animals use the

story shape that every human understands

because levels are relative start by

anchoring your story on your status and

responsibilities on your team and the

job description at your target company

later on challenges commensurate with

the type of problems people at this

level are likely to encounter

describe an imperfect but still positive

success

don't describe villains

you star to make sure that your story

has substance and isn't fluff but don't

use it as a way to write your stories

don't lie in an attempt to make yourself

look better it's too much work to keep

your story straight and you risk

damaging your credibility

it's better to spend your energy on

being a badass rather than concocting a

story about how much of a badass you are

if you found this content helpful please

hit the like button and consider

subscribing i try to make videos that

would have been helpful to a younger

version of myself but i'm getting so old

that i forget what that was like so

leave a comment on what you'd like to

see in upcoming videos

you won't be a great storyteller

immediately after watching this video

but i think that once you start thinking

in these terms you'll start seeing

yourself as a character in a larger epic

and your day-to-day actions as part of a

broader narrative

at times it may feel artificial

devoid of authenticity

but there's something innately human

about the way we connect with others via

stories

thanks for watching

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