Billionaire Jim Ratcliffe On Man Utd Players, Stadium & Strategy: Full Interview

Summary

In an interview with Bloomberg, Jim discusses the ongoing changes at Manchester United, highlighting the need for a shift in culture and environment to foster success. He addresses challenges such as management issues, the impact of multiple coaches, and the complex financial regulations in football. Jim emphasizes the importance of building a balanced squad and improving the overall structure of the club. He also touches on broader topics, including the state of the UK economy, the role of government in development projects, and the challenges facing the chemical industry in Europe.

Takeaways

• 😀 Jim discusses the cultural change happening at Manchester United and emphasizes that it will be a long journey.
• 😀 He acknowledges the club's decade-long struggles and the need for a shift in environment.
• 😀 Management changes, including a new chief executive, sporting director, and technical director, are highlighted as key to driving this change.
• 😀 Jim criticizes the 'gardening leave' issue in football, which complicates making swift changes.
• 😀 He emphasizes that the problem isn't just with coaches but with the overall environment and management practices at Manchester United.
• 😀 Real Madrid is cited as a model for success due to their effective management and financial strategies.
• 😀 Jim stresses the importance of building a balanced squad rather than relying on star players like Mbappé.
• 😀 Financial Fair Play (FFP) regulations are mentioned as a constraint on spending, necessitating careful financial planning.
• 😀 He expresses concerns about over-regulation and legal wrangles potentially harming the Premier League's success.
• 😀 The conversation touches on broader issues, including the need for government support in regeneration projects like the development of the south side of Manchester.

Q & A

What are some of the challenges Manchester United has faced over the past decade?

Manchester United has experienced a series of difficult seasons with multiple managers over the past decade. Despite having capable coaches, the environment has not been productive for success, leading to poor decisions on coaches, players, and management practices.

How is Manchester United planning to change its environment to become more successful?

The focus is on creating a competitive and supportive environment. This involves new management, including a new chief executive, sporting director, and technical director. They aim to set a positive tone and drive changes, although the process is hindered by issues like gardening leave.

What is Jim's opinion on the impact of management on Manchester United's performance?

Jim believes that management plays a crucial role in setting the tone and creating a productive environment. The club's past issues cannot be solely blamed on coaches, as the management environment has not been conducive to success.

What is Manchester United's approach to player spending compared to Real Madrid?

Manchester United's net spend on players over the past decade is £1.1 billion, whereas Real Madrid's is £200 million. Despite spending a lot, Manchester United has not achieved the same level of success as Real Madrid, which has managed to build a great squad and football ground with a lower net spend.

What is Jim's stance on spending large sums on players like Mbappé for Manchester United?

Jim believes that the solution is not to buy a single star player like Mbappé. Instead, Manchester United needs to build a balanced squad and make progress over time, potentially adding top players later once the squad is more stable.

How do financial regulations affect Manchester United's spending decisions?

Financial regulations like Financial Fair Play (FFP) limit how much Manchester United can spend. The club must balance its spending with income, salary bills, and amortization costs, making it a complex process to decide on player purchases.

What are Jim's concerns about the future of the Premiership with increasing regulations?

Jim is concerned that excessive interference and regulation could harm the Premiership. He believes the league should focus on maintaining its status as the best and most successful league in the world without becoming bogged down in legal disputes.

What are Jim's views on the role of the government in regulating football?

Jim is wary of government regulators interfering too much with football. He believes that while some regulation is necessary, too much interference could be detrimental to the success and appeal of the Premiership.

How does Jim perceive the regeneration project in southern Manchester?

Jim sees the regeneration of southern Manchester as a significant opportunity, emphasizing the area's historical importance and its connection to Manchester United. He believes it would require a combination of public, private, and club investment to revitalize the area and create an economic nucleus.

What is Jim's opinion on the state of the chemical industry in the UK and Europe?

Jim views the chemical industry in the UK as nearly finished, with most activity shifting to more competitive regions like the United States, China, and the Middle East. He attributes this to high energy costs, carbon taxes, and a lack of government support for manufacturing in the UK and Europe.

Outlines

00:00

⚽ Culture Shift at Manchester United

Jim discusses the significant cultural changes underway at Manchester United. He mentions the club's challenging past decade and the need for a supportive yet competitive environment. Jim highlights the new leadership team, including a chief executive and a sporting director, and the challenges of implementing changes due to gardening leave. He emphasizes the importance of management in setting the tone and driving change, while also acknowledging the need for patience as new practices are established.

05:00

💸 Financial Comparisons with Real Madrid

Jim compares Manchester United's financial management with that of Real Madrid. Despite spending significantly more on players, Manchester United has not achieved the same success. Jim points out that Real Madrid's more effective management has led to a stronger squad and an impressive stadium. He stresses that Manchester United needs to focus on building a balanced squad rather than relying on high-profile signings. Jim also touches on the complexities of financial fair play (FFP) regulations and their impact on the club's spending.

10:03

⚖️ Navigating FFP Regulations

Jim delves into the challenges of managing the club's finances under the constraints of FFP regulations. He explains how these rules influence spending decisions, including the need to balance sales and purchases. Jim expresses concern about the complexity of the regulations and the potential for legal disputes within the Premier League. He highlights the importance of maintaining the Premier League's status as the world's top football league and warns against excessive interference and regulation.

15:03

🌍 Balancing Multi-Club Ownership

Jim addresses the concept of multi-club ownership and its benefits for Manchester United. He believes that owning clubs like Nice can provide a platform for developing young talent and navigating Brexit-related challenges in recruiting European players. Jim also discusses the potential pitfalls of multi-club ownership, such as restrictions on player transfers between owned clubs, and emphasizes the importance of maintaining fair competition.

20:04

🏟️ Regenerating Southern Manchester

Jim outlines plans for regenerating the area around Old Trafford, emphasizing its historical significance as the birthplace of the industrial revolution. He envisions a comprehensive development project involving public, private, and club investment to transform the area into a vibrant hub. This project aims to attract millions of visitors annually and includes plans for new museums, hotels, and transportation infrastructure.

25:04

🌐 Global Football Calendar Challenges

Jim expresses concerns about the increasing demands on footballers due to a crowded global football calendar. He highlights the physical toll on players and the risk of injuries from playing too many games. Jim draws parallels with Formula One, where extended seasons also strain participants. He advocates for a balanced approach to scheduling to avoid overburdening athletes and maintain high performance levels.

30:06

📉 Decline of the UK Chemical Industry

Jim discusses the decline of the chemical industry in the UK and Europe, attributing it to high energy costs, carbon taxes, and lack of government support. He contrasts this with the thriving chemical industry in the United States, which benefits from lower energy costs and fewer regulatory burdens. Jim reflects on how these economic factors have shifted INEOS's focus from Europe to the US and other more competitive regions.

35:10

🏢 Managing the UK's Economic and Immigration Issues

Jim critiques the UK government's handling of economic and immigration issues. He argues that the government spends too much of the GDP inefficiently and lacks the right people to manage public services effectively. Jim emphasizes the need for better infrastructure and stricter immigration controls to manage the country's growing population. He expresses hope that a new Labour government might address these issues more effectively, though he acknowledges the challenges ahead.

Keywords

💡Culture Change

The process of transforming the attitudes, behaviors, and norms within Manchester United to create a more productive and competitive environment. This involves altering management practices and fostering a supportive yet intense atmosphere for young players. Jim emphasizes that this change is essential due to a decade of poor performance and management instability.

💡Management

Refers to the leadership and organizational practices at Manchester United. Effective management is highlighted as crucial for setting the tone and driving the necessary changes within the club. Jim notes that previous management failures have contributed to the club's lack of success, despite having capable coaches.

💡Gardening Leave

A term used to describe the period during which an employee who is leaving a job is required to stay away from work but is still on the payroll. Jim mentions this as a significant challenge in football, making it difficult to implement changes quickly due to key personnel being on gardening leave.

💡Real Madrid

Used as a benchmark for success and effective management in football. Jim contrasts Manchester United's heavy spending with Real Madrid's more efficient use of resources, highlighting Real Madrid's achievements in building a world-class squad and stadium with a lower net spend.

💡Financial Fair Play (FFP)

Regulations designed to prevent football clubs from spending more than they earn to ensure long-term financial stability. Jim discusses the complexities and constraints these rules impose on Manchester United's spending, affecting their ability to buy new players and compete at the highest level.

💡Player Transfers

The process of buying and selling players to strengthen the team. Jim explains that while Manchester United has spent significantly on transfers, it has not always resulted in success. Effective management of transfers and building a balanced squad are seen as essential for the club's future success.

💡Manchester United's Environment

Refers to the overall atmosphere, culture, and operational practices within the club. Jim identifies the need for a more supportive and competitive environment to improve performance. This includes updating practices to keep pace with modern football standards.

💡Ownership and Investment

Involves the financial and strategic decisions made by the club's owners and investors. Jim talks about the need for prudent investment in the squad and infrastructure, and he expresses concerns over the potential impact of external regulations and interference on the club's operations.

💡Premiership Regulations

Rules and policies governing the English Premier League. Jim discusses how these regulations, including FFP and potential government interference, affect the operations and competitiveness of Manchester United. He advocates for careful consideration to avoid excessive complexity and legal disputes.

💡European Super League

A proposed competition involving Europe's top football clubs. Jim touches on the idea briefly, noting that top clubs need to maintain their competitive edge to ensure the Premiership remains the best league in the world. He suggests that excessive regulation could hinder this goal.

Highlights

Jim outlines the challenges of changing the culture at Manchester United, emphasizing that it won't be a short journey.

He mentions the club's decade of difficult seasons and the need for a change.

Jim highlights the issue of multiple managerial changes and the lack of a productive environment.

He stresses the importance of management in setting the tone for a competitive and supportive environment.

The introduction of a new chief executive, sporting director, and technical director is expected to drive change.

Jim discusses the impact of gardening leave on the pace of change in football management.

He expresses frustration with the difficulty of driving change due to the gardening leave issue.

Jim emphasizes that success is not solely dependent on the coach but on the overall environment.

He acknowledges that Manchester United has made poor decisions over the past decade in various areas.

Jim highlights the significant net spend on players by Manchester United compared to Real Madrid.

He points out the need for a balanced squad and gradual progress rather than relying on star players.

The Financial Fair Play (FFP) regulations significantly impact spending decisions.

Jim notes that Manchester United has spent about £400 million in the last two seasons.

He mentions the complications of FFP rules and their impact on club management.

Jim expresses concerns about the potential for excessive regulation to harm the Premier League.

He discusses the importance of keeping the Premier League the best and most successful football league in the world.

Jim highlights the historical significance of the area around Old Trafford and its potential for regeneration.

He stresses the importance of a government initiative for the regeneration of Southern Manchester.

Jim expresses the view that the Club World Cup adds unnecessary strain on players.

He discusses the potential impact of Brexit on the manufacturing and chemical industries in the UK.

Jim notes the competitive advantage of the United States in the chemical industry due to lower energy costs and no carbon tax.

He criticizes the handling of Brexit and the economic policies in the UK.

Jim emphasizes the need for effective government spending and management of public services.

He discusses the impact of high immigration on the UK's infrastructure.

Jim believes that making difficult decisions might lead to greater popularity in the long run.

Transcripts

Jim, thank you so much for speaking to Bloomberg.

Yes, pleasure. So you're changing the culture and

united. What does that look like, huh?

Well, I think it's been very interesting.

Six months and it's not it's not going to be a short journey.

But yeah, I think some things are definitely beginning to change.

You know, I think we've obviously had, you know, a decade of

sort of difficult seasons, so it was time for a change.

But. You know, there's been a whole series of

managers now for ten or 11 series that have seasons which have not been

successful. But some of those coaches were clearly

very capable. You know, it's sort of fairly obvious,

really, that the environment has not been a productive environment for for a

club to be successful because you can't blame it on six or seven coaches.

You know, it's not all the coach's fault.

So, you know, our focus is to try and change that

sort of environment. Well, what way that work ethic?

Well, I think it's a mixture of things. I mean, clearly, management is the

biggest one, really, that sort of sets the tone and sets them such the you

know, that's you need an environment, It's a sports club.

So you need to it needs to be competitive.

It needs to be a degree of intensity. It needs to be driven all those, all

those type of things, but with a sort of supportive side to it because you're

dealing with, you know, players that are relatively

young, some of them, you know, just, you know, they're still teenagers, really.

So in that sort of environment, and it hasn't had that type of environment

historically. So, you know what?

We obviously will have a new chief executive, a new sporting director, a

new technical director, and that will sort of set the tone.

They're all sort of world class individuals.

They're all new people into the club. So, you know, that will start to drive

change when they settle in. And of course, one of the biggest issues

in football, which I have to say I wasn't

I wasn't fully prepared for, was the gardening leave issue, which is not

something that, you know, I bump into in my sort of business world.

And I see absolutely no point in the gardening leave

sort of thing that they have in football.

But of course, it just just makes it difficult to change things with pace.

Right, Because Omar's on six months. Dennis was one and a half years.

Jason Wilcox We had a very sensible conversation with Southampton.

We must find a solution to that. Newcastle just being very difficult and

very awkward about that. And so but you know, until you get the

people in, it's quite difficult to drive the change, you know,

and it's just frustrating. So the manager is now sticking around.

There were so many media reports that he wasn't going to stay.

Did that bug you? I mean, it's for the team to decide, you

know, the coaches and management and players and all that type of thing.

So, I mean, it it tends to be a great focus in football

and an attribution of success or failure.

So blame on a coach. But it's not all about coaches, about

many more things than that, really. And,

you know, the coach isn't the central issue at Manchester United.

The central issue at Manchester United is they have an environment which is not

particularly productive in the sporting and the sporting world.

You know, they've made lots of poor decisions over ten years on coaches,

footballers and just the way in which they manage the facility and they

haven't kept up to date with the modern world.

So some of the practices are not the level they should be for,

you know, the biggest football club in the world.

So so concretely, what does that look like?

You've come in. Were you surprised?

Were there more surprises to the bad side than good surprises?

I would I would say that everything we've looked at

has presented itself as an opportunity, which

you could interpret as saying that there is room for improvement.

Everywhere we look. There's room for improvement, in my

judgment. But and we will improve everything

because we want to be, you know, at the top of at the top of that, we want to be

competing for the premiership every year and competing for the Champions League.

Yeah, that's where we need to be. We need to be where Real Madrid is

today, but we're not there at the moment and it will take time.

You can't it's not a light switch. You can't fix a switch and it's always

going to be. Is it is there a club, is there a club

or a company that that is a template of what you want it to look like?

I think Real Madrid have done a fabulous job, honest.

There's an interesting statistic which compares Real Madrid in Manchester

United. If you look at the ten, ten or 11

seasons since Alex Ferguson and David Gill did go to see, they retired at the

all they left at the same time during that period of time, Manchester

United's net spend on players. So that's players they bought less.

The income from players that they've sold is £1.1 billion.

So United have not been mean with the checkbook.

They've actually spent an awful lot of money.

Real Madrid over that same period of time is only £200 million, which is

surprising when you hear that because today they have a squad

where six or seven players are valued over €100 million.

The Manchester United doesn't have any players that are valued at €100 million

or more. And Real Madrid have built probably the

finest football ground in the world using the same chequebook, because for

the 900 million that you know, that they've improved, you know, they've

managed to build the new bernabéu. So if you if you compare and contrast

that to those two sets of statistics, you can see

that the quality of management at Real Madrid has been better than across the

management of Manchester United and the consequences of ownership with a great

squad in a great ground. But would you be ready to spend that

amount of money for Mbappé like Player for Man United?

Well, you have to look at the balance sheet to

start with, and I don't think the solution is to buy them back, you know?

You know, we're more grassroots than just one player.

Isn't to solve the problem of Manchester United, really?

I think the first thing you need to do is, you know, you need to you need to

build a balanced squad that we need to make progress with the squad.

And ultimately, maybe you top it off with a player or one or two players like

that. But that doesn't it's not a solution

today. How much would you want for the next

season? How much are you ready to spend?

You know, in the modern world, of course, that it's more difficult to

answer that question because of all the the host of regulations that tell us how

much we can and cannot spend. We have FFP to deal with.

So we have we've got more accountants than we've got sporting people at

Manchester United trying to run all the models, of course.

But so it is a function of, of, of, you

know, what you're spending, what your balance sheet and what you're

spending looks like and what your what your salary bill is for existing players

and what your own mitigation bill is for existing players

that decides how much you can spend for the next season.

So much richer, not just spend quite a lot of money.

In the last two seasons, I think we spent about 400 million and they've got

a fairly high wage bill. We've got fairly high amortisation

costs. So that limits in what we can spend

according to the FFP regs. So it will be a combination of sales and

purchases. And of course there's always this

variable about what your income's going to be.

So you're sort of always trying to estimate

what your income will be to decide what you can spend on players because you

know, you have to make assumptions.

Are you going to be in the Champions League, are you going to be in the

Europa Cup, etc. because that affects your income and

your ability to build for, you know, your FFP target.

So it's quite a complicated set of rules.

What do you make of the FFP rules? The two complications really, and I

think there are two sets of FFP rules.

I mean, it's got a slightly different name in the Premiership, but UEFA has a

set of the Premier League and they're different

and they're different levels and they're different rules.

So it becomes quite complicated to manage, manage the books really when

you're having to try and fit into those sets of rules and you're trying to make

projections about the future. So, you know, I mean, we, as you know,

won the FA Cup, so we're in the Europa, so our income has gone up because we're

in the Europa. But if we've not been in the Europa

League, so it all affects the FFP, you know, But,

but where you are right now, I mean you've gone through basically the

numbers, you have accountants looking through it or are there players that you

want or they're. Yeah, yeah, no we, I mean we're in the

middle of that transfer period. So yeah,

you know, we're doing what every other club is doing, which is looking at,

you know, Do you think you'll get which of the holes in our squad and where we

want to plug the holes. And then what.

So what are the possibilities out there in the marketplace.

You're, you're confident that you'll get the positions you need.

I'm not confident that we'll solve all the problems in the first transfer

window. No, it will take time.

And also, bear in mind from from what I was just saying, you you know, Omar and

Jason, who are the sort of key pillars of the sports side, they're not all in

place with the negotiation in place. So, you know, we're we're sort of a bit

handicapped in that sense. So I think we'll do a fairly good job.

But he's not going to answer all the problems this first season.

We will take two or three summer windows to get to a better place.

So we're talking about some of the rules.

Man City is challenging some of the definitions.

Yes, that is. Yeah, very associated personal policy

rules. I think they the challenging.

Yeah. But I mean you know, FFP is complicated

and are they right to challenge it. Well I can understand why they are

challenging it because I mean they're basically saying associated parties

should be able to invest in their club. So I think they've got Etihad.

Airline sponsor, Manchester City. So you could you can understand why they

would say that they want an open market, free market.

But it's not really for me to just sort of judge.

I just think the premiership needs to be careful.

It doesn't get itself into a, you know, an endless legal wrangle with, you know,

lots and lots of clubs, because at the end of the day,

you know, the Premiership is probably the most successful sporting league in

the world, certainly the most successful football league in the world.

And we have this expression of northern England, which ain't broke, don't fix

it. And,

you know, this is to be careful. If you start interfering too much,

bringing too much regulation in, and then you finish it with the Manchester

City issue, you finish the Everton issue, finish off the Nottingham Forest

issue, you know? No, no, no, no, no.

And if you're not careful, a premiership is going to finish up spending more time

in court than it is thinking about what's good for the league.

And you know, we've got the best league in the world.

Don't ruin that league, for heaven's sake.

And then we were there was all this conversation about anchoring, you know,

and you know, what would anchoring do? Anchoring would then

that would inhibit top clubs in the premiership.

And what the last thing you want in the Premiership is for the top clubs in the

Premiership not to be able to compete with the Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern

Munich, PSG, some of that. That's absurd.

And and if it does, then it ceases to be the finest league in the world.

So people have a view and then we've got the government regulator.

You know, we're not talking about a government regulator coming in and they,

you know, if you've got a government regulated, at the end of the day,

they'll interfere and that won't be good.

So, I mean, I have a few concerns about the Premiership in that, you know, when

Richard Scudamore ran it, it was you know, it was a really fun league, is

very successful. And over that other premiership, it's

now 15 years, it became extremely successful and then everybody starts

interfering and messing about. And that's not very it's not good.

So do you do you worry about the people in charge?

Is that is that a concern about.

No, no, no, no. It's not about I don't know how they

drift. I mean, I've only been in football for

six months. Well, you following following for a long

time. That's true.

No, no. I mean, I know Alison.

She very sensible idea, what have you. But

no, I think that that drift into complexity, that's unnecessary.

I think people just need to stand back and think about whether that's good.

I mean, they should remember what the premiership is about, what's the best

league in the world. And that's the focus, is keep it the

best and it's got the most income in the world.

So, you know, for the UK, we get we get the best players coming to the UK, we

get the best coaches coming to the UK, we get the best football in the UK.

I mean, it's very different for French football.

We obviously are in East and you know, premiership.

Everybody in the world follows the Premiership.

Everybody, everybody, everybody in the world knows who the middle clubs are in

the Premiership, but everybody knows a bit about Fulham and Everton and

not just the top top six, but in France that's not the case.

In Italy, it's not the case. You know, people don't know about it.

You know, the smaller clubs, you know, the medium sized clubs in France.

So the Premiership is a real to believe that it's about too much.

What will you do with me? Well, I think

I mean, of all things that happen to we weren't anticipating that we would

finish up in the Europa Cup because up until Christmas Neath was was a very

close second in the league to PSG. So we were anticipating they would be in

the European Cup

and of course united up until the last game.

We're not in any of the European leagues.

So for them both to finish off in the same league was, which was fantastic

news obviously for Manchester United winning the FFA Cup.

But but do you understand the rules or have you spoken to suggestions?

If you're just making things into a trust basically for a year, is hands off

for you basically? I mean, I get some of it,

but you know, I think the public perception of of, you know,

accommodation, owning two different clubs in the same competition, they want

to feel comfortable that there's no no interference finished.

I mean, why would you ever interfere? I don't know.

You know, but some of it is a bit too.

So we've got a player, for instance, I won't mention his name.

We've got a player in Niece who was really interested in joining

Manchester United, and I think he probably has the capability of being in

the Manchester United squad. And, you know, they've said we said we

can sell him to sell them to another premiership club.

We can't sell to Manchester United, but that's not fair on the player and I

don't see what that achieves. So there's some sort of roof that which

I'm going to use for taking, you know, would you ever sell?

So would you sell these? It's not our intention to sell this

because I quite like the concept of the multi club,

and I think this would be very complementary to Manchester United

for two reasons, really. One,

you can you can blood younger players in a in these then you're kind of

Manchester United because Manchester United's sits at a high level so it's

quite tough to bring an 18 or 19. I mean occasionally you get a copy made,

but it's quite difficult to blood those younger players.

But in Asia you could do that and that would be a benefit to these, of course.

And secondly, in the UK, because of Brexit, it is quite difficult not to

contract the younger, you know, generational talents in

Europe. But niece could do that.

So we could bring, you know, if it's a fantastic 15 year old in France, we can

we can sign up to use and use things as a as a a conduit to Manchester United

later on. Would you see something like a European

Super League or. Oh, gosh, because of the rules or

because, you know, you're the biggest, most important club in the Premier

League? Do you feel like you're getting fair

treatment because of all these rules? I don't I don't think I have enough

experience in understanding quite how Premier League works yet.

I mean, I think everybody has an equal vote

and the what they used to be, I believe, as was explained to me, there used to be

a sort of coalition of the six major clubs who would have a certain level of

of influence in in the premiership. But that broke down after the Super

club, you know, the European Super Capital

Initiative. And and there needs to be the need to be

careful that the the top six clubs and not disadvantage

because they don't sort of get a reasonably strong say in in the

committee because at the end of the day it's those top six or seven clubs that

drive the premiership. That's what the world's interested in.

You know, we have an election in the UK July 4th, we may hear about it.

Yeah, it's a surprise. We heard yesterday from from Labour that

they'd be looking at maybe changing some of the football rules and the levies on

transfers, ticket sales, but I haven't heard that actually.

Yes, I'll just go back to my what I was saying, don't interfere too much.

We can, you know, you know, there's a great temptation because the Premiership

is now so big and so successful and there's temptation for people to

interfere with it, you know, to leave it alone.

You mind? What's your take on the UK right now?

The elections on the UK? Is it good for business?

I mean, you're here, you know, here in London,

I think, you know, the Conservatives now have had, you know, a fairly long,

they've had a very long stint and they've they've put forward a whole

series of prime ministers that haven't been

terribly successful, really, to be honest, the last four or so.

So, you know, I think the UK, everybody in the UK, you know, you can see that

the mood in the UK is ready for a change.

They've had a they've had enough. And so, you know, I think I've met Keir

Starmer a couple of times. I don't care.

I think it's a very sensible job. So

would you have a go? We're going to have a change of policy,

but would you go back to the UK as a resident?

I mean, we're also trying to build the Wembley of the North.

Do you think it would help if you were back in the UK?

MM Well I, you know, I live down here, my family's down here, so

and I'm sort of quite settled here. I've got enjoy the life and the weather

is rather better than the UK through the winter.

I love the UK, that's where I'm from, but I've spent the first 60 years of my

life, but I do quite enjoy them here. You know it as I get on a bit.

It's quite nice to in two days of sunshine us.

But but I mean never say never really. Who knows?

So you want to redevelop of course. The stadium.

Yeah. Wembley of the north.

Are you looking for outside private money.

Is it, does it involve sovereign wealth funds.

Where where are we in those stages. Well I think the it's more about the

regeneration of Southern Manchester because, you know, the area of

settlement is really I think is is it's an area of historical

significance in the sense that that's where the industrial revolution began

and settled at the beginning in the you know, in the sort of late 1700s.

And that really is a fundamental change in the way humans have existed, because

before manufacturing it was a fairly you know, we had a very rural

existence. And the reason Old Trafford was built

where it was built was because the, you know, the workers, when they when they

left the factories, they could walk the grounds.

There's no public transport, you know. So we'll Trafford is in the middle of

where the industrial revolution began and it's all part of the Manchester

United's 150 years old in 2028. It's quite you know it's one of the

oldest clubs in the world but I mean the area today is fairly

rundown, so it is an area of historical

significance and in the centre of it it's got the Manchester United football

ground. Everybody in the world knows of

Manchester because of Manchester United. It is it's, you know, Manchester United

like Coca-Cola, isn't it? Everybody knows, but I'm not sure I know

why, but it's a fact. If you go to Africa, you go to Asia, you

go anywhere in Asia, all around the world who are familiar with that.

So have you had discussions with with private investors ready to to put money

in the project? If you if you regenerate the

south side of Manchester, it has to be a government initiative because it's too

big an area and it's too big a project. But the regeneration project needs to

have a sort of an economic nucleus and

otherwise you're just building housing estates.

If you look at Barcelona, $5 million million people that comes to the museum,

Barcelona football club, you know, so you would have an economic nucleus

because Manchester United's biggest football club in the world, you know,

millions of people come every year to look around the facilities and you would

build museums and friends, homes and all that type stuff.

If you look at Wembley, if you look at the new Wembley, which Norman Foster

built in London and you look at the surrounding area, it's full of new

developments which come in because of that.

So yeah, it would involve, it would involve public money, it would involve

our money and it would involve private money because you'd need people to come

in and maybe to build, you know, a new part of the university of new health and

wellbeing, but build a museum, you build the ground, you build over

hotels and housing facilities and transportation systems and all that.

So we got a large be quite large project club, World Cup.

So what do you think of it? We're not in it.

So I think my opinion is probably

relatively relevant. But I think the the key issue is that

you can't you can't you can't just keep taking more from footballers.

You know, they've got you know, they've got their leagues, they've got the World

Cup, they've got the European Cup, they've got the Champions League.

Now you want to have the Club World Cup, but I mean they never get a break.

And you know, you can see some of the footballers at the end of season were

exhausted. Rodri was a classic example of

Manchester City was no, I don't know how many games we played, 60 games or

something like that. And it's a you know, if you've got I

know only Turkey really well because we got involved with him and he runs to

Mass and so yeah, he runs right on in the first half, but in the second half

and he does, he's training in between. But these footballers you can't, you

can't expect them in a, in a game which is really physical, you know, it's

sprinting, it's turning, it's, you know, it's quite physical tackling and all

that type thing. I mean you're just going to finish up

with everybody getting injured all the time and curtailing their careers if you

have. I mean, I'm I'm seeing a bit the same in

in for me. We obviously are involved in Formula One

with the Mercedes team. And, you know, they keep wanting to

extend the season so they can make more money, you know, and then they extend

the season a bit more. They can make more money.

And it's the same with football. Everybody wants to make more.

UEFA wants to get money. FIFA wants to make it wants to make

money. Doesn't everybody wants to make money?

But you've got this one set of football. You can't you know, you don't kill the

football. No, it's if you want to be in in in the

club, you wouldn't you would say no, sorry if I know you haven't qualified,

would we say no. I think we would.

I mean I don't know what we would say because we haven't sat down and talked

about it, but we would sit down and think about, is this the right thing for

the club and the footballers in the club?

Yeah, because you know, if you, if you string

yourself out to too far wide, then you know, it'd be mediocre in lots of things

rather than good in a smaller number of things.

So I mean it's becoming, I mean it's becoming quite an issue in football

because you know, the clubs have got so many games you can't pay your first team

every game. So you have to have a bigger and bigger

squad to be able to cope with the demands on the on the footballers.

Times. Now, I haven't asked you what you're

doing with the with the, with the women at Manchester United.

Well they've just won the FA Cup. But do you look for I mean would you

spin it off. We know we have again an investor come

in like Chelsea has. We haven't really we haven't got into

that level of detail with the women's football.

I mean, we've been pretty much focused on how do we resolve the first team

issues, certainly in that environment. And that's been pretty full time for the

first six months. So to TBC.

Correct. So away from football, how do you think

investors, foreign investors look at the UK?

So there's there has been you know the levelling up agenda with that hasn't

really quite worked out as maybe some politicians probably when we talked

about levelling up in the UK and you know the Great Northern Powerhouse was

never really happened but will it under Labour.

Yeah, I think much more so. I think what I think carers is, is maybe

talking about is giving the mayors, you know, the mayors of the major kind of

oceans or cities in the UK, more power to develop their area.

And Andy Burnham is, you know, he's, he's very passionate about Manchester

and he also recognises the reason Manchester is on the map is because of

Manchester United and he very much believes that the project, that

regeneration project in Manchester will be,

you know, is very much needed and is a it's a great it's a great project

really. But do you think Sir Keir will do a good

job in attracting investment? I mean there's talk about, you know, VAT

on public schools, there's non-dom. I don't know how you see the UK under a

Labour government. I wasn't a fan of the non-dom change.

I thought that was very foolish, I have to say.

But that wasn't that wasn't Labour that was conservative came up with a smart

idea. 60,000.

I mean, you've got 60,000 very wealthy people in London where you want to.

I didn't want to, I don't want to encourage them to leave making any sense

to me because they all bring, you know, enormous value to the economy in the

sense of I mean, most of the non dumps are in London, in the south of England.

I think I think that regeneration of southern

Manchester would attract quite a lot of investment.

And I think, you know, if we do, if we are successful in building the envy of

the North, I think it's appropriate that there's a venue in the north of England

for sort of major, you know, if you look at you look at a lot of the some of the

major sporting events that, you know, when Bush in the south, Twickenham in

the south, Wimbledon's in the south, the Olympic Village was in everything

south and you've got all these people not being attacked.

And you know, if you look at the Champions

League ten Champions Leagues in the north west of England, two in London and

all the football tournaments down in the south, the semi-finals of the EFL Cup in

the south of that, you know, should be it should be a

Wembley or a stadium of the north or in the north for the people of the north.

I'm so passionate about it. How do you see the chemical industry

actually in your chemical industry? Chemical industry, What does it mean for

INEOS? Is there again, I don't know how, how a

Labour government, I don't know if you spoken to Sir Keir about how Labour

government, not much chemical industry left in the UK, No finished

chemical industry in UK it's pretty much finished really.

Unfortunately, I don't think the government ever

really recognized the importance of that.

It's an enormous industry worldwide, but if you look at petrochemicals and in

Europe it's about the same size as automotive.

It's a really big industry. And similarly in America, I've been in

Europe, I think trillion trillion euro industry, chemicals and petrochemicals

is about the same size as the car industry, but there's very little left

in the UK now. So, I mean, if you look at the UK, if

you go back 25 years, 30 years ago, manufacturing in the UK was about the

same level as Germany, but 25% of GDP. Germany is still 22 or 23%.

You know, it's got a government which has been focused on maintaining a

healthy manufacturing base in Germany. But in the UK now with maybe 8% of GDP

from 25% 30 years ago. So manufacturing is which one of the one

of the reasons you had these powerhouse of north, you know, and those types of

initiatives because the North is a manufacturing base, but it's pretty much

all gone and I think it's probably too late now.

Could Labour not bring it back? How do you think you would change it?

You have to you have to have a long term.

Do you think they have a plan? I don't know.

Not that I'm aware of for bringing, but I mean, you know.

Places like America are in a great place for manufacturing because, you know,

they've got cheap energy, they've got no carbon taxes, they've got a government

which is very interested in social costs, which are very manageable.

But then you look at Europe.

I mean, Europe's a mess for petrochemicals.

Everybody's leaving petrochemicals in Europe, which is I've never seen in my

working life before. But if you look at I mean, I'm talking

mainland Europe, but I mean, sort of it applies to the UK as well, really is

energy costs five times.

American gas is five times the cost of America.

Electricity is five times the price of America.

I mean, it's not 5% or 10% or 50% or 500%.

So anything where any sort of activity which involves

using energy in some form or another is disadvantaged in Europe compared to

America or the Middle East, obviously. And then on top of that, you've got a

carbon tax. So if you emit anything which has got

carbon in it, you pay a carbon tax, you don't pay a carbon tax in America.

And then on top of that, you've got social costs.

But do you think that's changing? I mean, we had European elections.

It's a changing, yeah. Will policies in Europe change because

of the European elections? There seems to have been a vote.

Well, I think that listening because we met

Ursula von der Leyen and I was of the crew

three or four months ago and we had a chat about the social state of industry

in Europe. So I think they're listening and they

they were quite sympathetic with the arguments, but I haven't seen any

changes. So I mean, it's just,

you know, and she's really important for an economy at the end of the day.

I mean, obviously labour costs and then energy costs.

Do you think you could have built your your empire

in the current environment in the UK and Europe?

Were you starting now? That's a good question.

I think we've got tough in Europe now. INEOS Today the majority of our profits

come from the United States, whereas if you take INEOS 20 years ago the majority

of our profits come from Europe and it's slowly moved across the United States

because the United States is much more competitive environment for, for, for

chemicals and petrochemicals and immense amounts of investment and new build.

And in the American marketplace and in China and in the Middle East and Europe

has been stagnant probably for 25 years and nothing new in Europe for 25 years.

I know you, in contrast, what you've been disappointed with the way Brexit

has been run. Is that a fair qualification?

It's actually, I agree. Yeah.

So how how would you how would you do it differently?

And how do you think Labour would be able to change?

Would you be do you ever go into politics?

No, I don't think they'd have me. Actually, I'm probably not.

I'm not P.C. enough, I don't think, for politics.

And I'm certainly not very woke. But no, I mean, how would you run the

country, I think.

How would you run the country? I think for me, I mean, you've got

immigration, which is one issue. And the other issue is, is the economic

issue. If you if you just look at the economic

issue for the UK of in my view is quite simple is the UK economy is £2 trillion,

the GDP is £2 trillion and the government take half of it, at least

half of it. So the government spend is £1 trillion.

So in my view that means and if you look at any of us, we spend 60 or 70 billion

a year or something like that. The government spends 1 trillion.

That's an awful lot more than us. So you need to spend the money.

Well, because you're not you're not spending your own money.

You're spending the population of the UK.

It's money. And you know, there are good reasons why

people pay taxes. You've got, you know, health care,

you've got police, you've got roads, all those types of things.

And I don't think the government manages those things very well and I don't think

it focuses on very well and I don't think it's got the right quality people

running them and but they're spending £1,000,000,000,000.

You know, the health service is a mess. We don't have security anymore.

Education's a bit of a mess. You know, we can't run sewage systems in

the UK. I mean, you know, we have sewage systems

running in the Victorian era and, you know, we allow all the utility.

I mean, just take that's a simple example.

We we leave all the water utilities to be sold off.

They were mainly bought by French companies and the French companies pay

50, £50 billion in dividends, but don't reinvest in the equipment to ensure that

we've got top class equipment to manage our, you know, sewage and drinking

water. Senators.

And then all of a sudden it's a crisis. I mean, why doesn't the government say,

we want to buy what are utilities? And these are the minimum requirements

you need to, you know, and if the people don't behave, then do what they do in

America that lock them up. You know, there's some consequence

consequences you if you misbehave. So you've got the whole issue of the

economy and then you've got immigration. And

they haven't dealt with immigration. They've sort of danced around.

But I think we had 500,000 people come in the UK last year.

Well, 500,000 people, two times the size of Southampton.

I mean, to Southampton in a year. And you think about all the

infrastructure is one of the basic problems we've got because we've allowed

so many people into the country and that will go on forever because, you know, we

speak English in England and all the planet speaks English now, and there are

8 billion people in the planet. They're going to be 10 billion people by

2050. So there's always going to be a flood of

people trying to get into the UK. So the need to be able to do that.

But we probably have got, you know, an infrastructure of 50 or 50 million

people and we've got 68 million people. So the hospitals, the roads that were

nothing work. And you know, at the end of the day

somebody has to say, no, you can't, you know, we can't take any more people in

because if you if you bring 500,000 people in, know how many schools you

have to build, how many roads you have to build, how many sewage systems, how

many police stations, and we're not doing that.

We're just sort of cramming them all in on the existing infrastructure and it

doesn't. How do you think Labour will deal with

that? Do you think, you know, Sir Keir will be

a good prime minister? Well, I think I think he I mean, I think

he's a very sensible man and he's an intelligent man.

So I don't know,

I think he'd probably have to do some unpopular things to be able to get those

those types of issues dealt with. It's like at Manchester United, I'm

having to do some things which are unpopular, but I mean, I'm happy in a

political environment in a way, you know.

So but I mean, I think at the end of the day, doing difficult things and, you

know, a degree of unpopularity in a funny sort of way might make you more

popular because somebody's seeing that you're standing up and making some

difficult decisions rather than just blowing with the wind of it.

Oh, I don't know. I mean, time will tell.

I can't predict how that will all go. Sir Jim, thank you so much for your time

today. Thank you.