The Persians & Greeks: Crash Course World History #5

Summary

This Crash Course episode, hosted by John Green, challenges the simplistic 'good Greeks vs. evil Persians' narrative, exploring the complexities of the Persian Empire and Athenian democracy. It delves into the historical biases of Herodotus, the Persians' surprisingly tolerant rule, and the darker aspects of Greek society, including slavery and imperialism. The episode questions the outcomes of the Persian Wars, suggesting that a Persian victory might have led to a more stable and less violent history for Greece.

Takeaways

• 🌏 The Persian Empire was a land-based model for many empires, with a light rule that allowed conquered kingdoms to maintain their own kings and elites, as long as they paid taxes and pledged allegiance.
• 📚 The Greek historian Herodotus, known for 'The Persian Wars,' introduced the concept of historical bias, being a Greek writing about the Persians.
• 🤴 The Achaemenid dynasty, founded by Cyrus the Great, is highlighted for its expansion and religious tolerance, with Zoroastrianism being a significant part of Persian culture.
• 🛣️ The Persians are noted for their infrastructure improvements, including a sophisticated mail service and road systems, facilitating rapid communication.
• 🏛️ Greek culture is celebrated for its contributions to architecture, philosophy, literature, and more, with Athens being a high point of this cultural flourishing.
• 🗳️ Athens is known for its democratic ideals, but the reality of Athenian democracy was limited to male citizens and marred by corruption and imperialism.
• 🏹 The Persian Wars were a series of conflicts between the Persian Empire and Greek city-states, starting due to Athens' support for Ionian Greeks rebelling against Persian rule.
• 🤝 The shared victory in the Persian Wars led to a collective Greek identity, with Athens emerging as a cultural and political leader.
• 🏙️ The Peloponnesian War was a conflict between Athens and Sparta, rooted in power struggles rather than ideological differences, and ended with Sparta's victory.
• 🔍 The legacy of Ancient Greece is complex, with significant contributions to Western civilization but also a history of imperialism and suppression of certain groups.
• 🤔 The script challenges the simplistic narrative of 'good' Greeks versus 'bad' Persians, urging viewers to consider the nuances of historical events and their implications on the present.

Q & A

Who is the presenter of Crash Course World History in this script?

The presenter of Crash Course World History in this script is John Green.

What is the main topic discussed in the script?

The main topic discussed in the script is the Persian Empire and the Greek city-states, with a focus on the Persian Wars and the cultural and political nuances of both civilizations.

Who is Herodotus and why is he significant in the context of this script?

Herodotus is one of the first true historians, known for his book 'The Persian Wars,' which provides a significant account of the Persians. His Greek origin introduces the concept of historical bias in the narrative.

What is the significance of the Achaemenid dynasty in Persian history?

The Achaemenid dynasty, founded by King Cyrus the Great in 539 BCE, is significant as it established the Persian Empire, which became a model for many land-based empires throughout history.

How did the Persian Empire's approach to conquered kingdoms differ from other empires?

The Persian Empire ruled with a light touch, allowing conquered kingdoms to keep their kings and elites as long as they pledged allegiance to the Persian King and paid taxes, earning the title 'The King of Kings.'

What was the Persian Empire's stance on religion and slavery?

The Persian Empire embraced freedom of religion and was Zoroastrian, which is considered the world's first monotheistic religion. They were not concerned with converting others and Zoroastrianism forbade slavery, making it almost unheard of in the empire.

What is the historical bias mentioned in the script, and how does it affect the narrative?

The historical bias mentioned refers to the tendency of historians, such as Herodotus, to favor their own culture or perspective, which can influence the way history is recorded and interpreted.

What is the significance of the Peloponnesian War in the context of Greek history?

The Peloponnesian War was a significant conflict between Athens and Sparta that lasted for thirty years. It highlighted the internal strife within Greece and ultimately weakened the city-states, paving the way for their conquest by Alexander the Great.

What is the Melian Dialogue, and why is it controversial?

The Melian Dialogue is a famous passage from Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War, where Athenians demand submission from the Melians, a Spartan colony. It is controversial because it illustrates Athenian imperialism and the harsh treatment of the Melians, contradicting the democratic ideals Athens was known for.

What philosophical or cultural contributions did the Greeks make to Western civilization?

The Greeks contributed significantly to Western civilization with their advancements in philosophy, literature, mathematics, architecture, and political thought, including the concept of democracy and the Socratic Method.

What is the script's final question regarding the Persian Wars, and what does it imply about historical interpretation?

The script's final question asks whether the right side won the Persian Wars. It implies that historical interpretation is complex and subjective, challenging the traditional view that the Greeks' victory was unequivocally positive.

Outlines

00:00

🌍 The Persian Empire and Historical Bias

In this paragraph, John Green introduces the topic of the Persian Empire and its influence on world history, contrasting the common perception of the Persians as totalitarian with the Greeks' reputation as democracy-loving. He mentions the Persian Empire's model for land-based empires, except for the Mongols, and highlights the importance of Herodotus, the first true historian, whose bias as a Greek is noted. The Achaemenid dynasty's achievements, including Cyrus the Great's conquests and Darius the First's expansion, are discussed. The Persians' lenient rule, infrastructure improvements, and religious tolerance are emphasized, suggesting that life in the Persian Empire was quite favorable, contrary to the Greek narrative.

05:03

🏛 Athenian Democracy and the Golden Age of Greece

This paragraph delves into the complexities of Greek culture and society, focusing on Athens post-Persian Wars. Green explains that Greece was a collection of city-states with various forms of government and limited citizenship. The Persian Wars led to a unified Greek identity. Athens' Golden Age is highlighted, marked by the construction of the Parthenon and the rise of statesmen like Pericles, who boasted of Athenian democracy. However, Green also points out the darker aspects of Athenian society, including slavery and the corruption of its government, as well as the Peloponnesian War, which was more about power and resources than ideological differences.

10:06

🤔 The Ambiguity of Greek Legacy and the Broader Questions of History

The final paragraph ponders the ambiguous legacy of Ancient Greece, questioning the righteousness of the Greeks' victory in the Persian Wars. Green contrasts the potentially positive aspects of Persian rule with the realities of Athenian democracy and its eventual fall to the Spartans. He also contemplates the broader questions of history, such as the purpose of life and how societies should be organized, suggesting that these are complex issues without easy answers. The paragraph ends with a teaser for the next episode about Buddha, inviting viewers to continue the exploration of history's meaning.

Keywords

💡Persian Empire

The Persian Empire, as discussed in the script, was an ancient empire that became a model for many land-based empires. It was known for its expansive reach, extending from the Indus Valley to Egypt and Anatolia. The empire was characterized by its relatively tolerant rule, allowing conquered kingdoms to maintain their local governance as long as they paid tribute and taxes. The script mentions the Persian Empire's infrastructure improvements and religious tolerance, which made it a desirable place to live in the 5th century BCE.

💡Historical Bias

Historical bias refers to the subjective perspective or prejudice that a historian may have, which can influence the way history is recorded and interpreted. In the script, the bias is highlighted through the discussion of Herodotus, a Greek historian, who wrote 'The Persian Wars'. His Greek origin might have influenced his portrayal of the Persians and Greeks, thus introducing a potential bias in the historical narrative.

💡Achaemenid Dynasty

The Achaemenid Dynasty was the first of the Persian ruling houses, founded by Cyrus the Great in 539 BCE. The script mentions Cyrus's conquests and how he ended the Babylonian Exile, earning him a favorable mention in the Bible. The Achaemenid Dynasty is a key concept as it represents the beginning of the Persian Empire discussed in the video.

💡Zoroastrianism

Zoroastrianism is identified in the script as the world's first monotheistic religion, associated with the Persian Empire. It introduced the concept of good versus evil dualism and was the state religion of the Persians. However, the script notes that the Persians were not aggressive in converting others to Zoroastrianism, and the religion itself forbade slavery, which was almost non-existent in the Persian Empire.

💡Ionian Greeks

The Ionian Greeks were a group of ancient Greeks who lived in Anatolia, as mentioned in the script. They are significant to the narrative because their rebellion against Persian rule in Anatolia led to the Persian Wars. The Ionian Greeks' struggle for independence is an example of the conflicts that can arise under empires and set the stage for the larger conflicts discussed in the video.

💡Democracy

Democracy is a form of government where power is vested in the people, who have the right to elect representatives to make decisions on their behalf. The script contrasts the Persian Empire's rule with the democratic ideals of the Greeks, particularly highlighting Athens as a model of democracy. However, it also points out the limitations of Athenian democracy, such as the exclusion of women and slaves from citizenship.

💡Peloponnesian War

The Peloponnesian War was a conflict between the Athenians and the Spartans, as discussed in the script. It was a significant event that followed the Persian Wars and led to the weakening of Greek city-states. The war is used in the script to illustrate the complexities and contradictions within Greek society, particularly Athenian imperialism and its impact on the idea of democracy.

💡Realism in International Relations

Realism in international relations is a theory that emphasizes power dynamics between nations. The script references the Melian Dialogue from Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War, where the Athenians assert their power over the Melians, stating 'The strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must.' This statement is seen as an early endorsement of realism, highlighting the Athenians' approach to power and dominance.

💡Pericles

Pericles was an influential and important statesman of ancient Athens, known for his leadership during the city's Golden Age. The script mentions his famous funeral oration, which celebrated Athenian democracy and the equal justice provided by its laws. Pericles represents a key figure in the narrative of Athenian democracy and its cultural achievements.

💡Parthenon

The Parthenon is a former temple on the Athenian Acropolis, which the script identifies as a symbol of the Golden Age of Athens. It has served various purposes over time, including as a church, a mosque, and an armory, and now stands as a ruin. The Parthenon is an iconic example of ancient Greek architecture and a testament to the cultural and artistic achievements of the time.

💡Aristophanes

Aristophanes is referred to in the script as the Father of Comedy, known for his satirical plays that mocked contemporary society, including Athenian politics and the theatre of his time. The script humorously addresses the playwright's legacy, noting that despite his fame, his works are often seen as tedious reading in schools, contrasting with the lively humor and social commentary present in his plays.

Highlights

Introduction to the Persian Empire as a model for land-based empires, with the exception of the Mongols.

Historical bias introduced through the lens of Herodotus, a Greek historian writing about the Persians.

The Achaemenid dynasty's foundation by Cyrus the Great and his conquests, including ending the Babylonian Exile.

Darius the First's expansion of the Persian Empire to include the Indus Valley, Egypt, and Anatolia.

The Persian Empire's governance style allowing conquered kingdoms to maintain their own rulers and elites under certain conditions.

Infrastructure improvements by the Persians, including better roads and an efficient mail service.

The Persian Empire's embrace of freedom of religion and the prevalence of Zoroastrianism.

Contrasting the idealized image of Greek culture with the reality of Athenian democracy and its limitations.

The role of Athens in supporting Ionian Greeks and the subsequent Persian Wars.

The shared victory of the Greeks in the Persian Wars leading to a unified Greek identity.

Athens' Golden Age and the construction of the Parthenon as a symbol of cultural flourishing.

Pericles' funeral oration and the rhetoric of Athenian democracy.

The Peloponnesian War as a conflict between Athens and Sparta over resources and power.

The Melian Dialogue illustrating Athenian imperialism and the realist theory of international relations.

The ambiguous legacy of Ancient Greece, including its contributions to philosophy and democracy, and its internal conflicts.

The question of whether the 'right' side won the Persian Wars and the implications for the development of Western civilization.

Reflection on the purpose of human existence and the organization of society, as prompted by historical analysis.

Transcripts

Hi, I’m John Green, this is Crash Course World History, and today we’re going to

do some legitimate comp. civ., for those of you into that kind of thing. Stan, I can’t

help but feel that we have perhaps too many globes. That’s better.

Today we’re going to learn about the horrible totalitarian Persians and the saintly, democracy-loving

Greeks. But of course we already know this story — there were some wars in which no

one wore any shirts, and everyone was reasonably fit. The Persians were bad; the Greeks were

good. Socrates and Plato were awesome; the Persians didn’t even philosophize. The West

is the Best; Go Team! Yeah, well, no.

[theme music]

Let’s start with the Persian empire, which became the model for pretty much all land-based

empires throughout the world. Except for — wait for it — the Mongols. [Mongoltage]

Much of what we know about the Persians and their empire comes from an outsider writing

about them, which is something we now call history, and one of the first true historians

was Herodotus, whose famous book The Persian Wars talks about the Persians quite a bit.

Now the fact that Herodotus was a Greek is important because it introduces us to the

idea of historical bias. But more on that in a second.

So the Persian Achaemenid dynasty... Achaemenid? Hold on...

HowJSay: AkEEmenid or AkEHmenid

They’re both right? I was right twice!?

Right, so the Persian AkEEmenid or AkEHmenid dynasty was founded in 539 BCE by King Cyrus

the Great. Cyrus took his nomadic warriors and conquered most of Mesopotamia, including

the Babylonians, which ended a sad period in Jewish history called The Babylonian Exile,

thus ensuring that Cyrus got great press in the Bible.

But his son, Darius the First, was even greater, he extended Persian control east to our old

friend the Indus Valley, west to our new friend Egypt, and north to Crash Course newcomer

Anatolia. By the way, there were Greeks in Anatolia called Ionian Greeks who will become relevant shortly.

So even if you weren’t Persian, the Persian Empire was pretty dreamy. For one thing, the

Persians ruled with a light touch, like, conquered kingdoms were allowed to keep their kings

and their elites as long as they pledged allegiance to the Persian King and paid taxes, which

is why the Persian king was known as The King of Kings.

Plus, taxes weren’t too high, and the Persians improved infrastructure with better roads

and they had this pony express-like mail service of which Herodotus said: “...they are stayed

neither by snow nor rain nor heat nor darkness from accomplishing their appointed course with all speed.”

And the Persians embraced freedom of religion. Like they were Zoroastrian, which has a claim

to being the world’s first monotheistic religion. It was really Zoroastrianism that

introduced to the good/evil dualism we all know so well. You know: god and Satan, or

Harry and Voldemort... But the Persians weren’t very concerned about converting people of

the empire to their faith. Plus, Zoroastrianism forbid slavery, and so slavery was almost

unheard of in the Persian Empire.

All in all, if you had to live in the 5th century BCE, the Persian Empire was probably

the best place to do it. Unless, that is, you believe Herodotus and the Greeks. We all

know about the Greeks: architecture, philosophy, literature. The very word music comes from

Greek, as does so much else in contemporary culture. Greek poets and mathematicians playwrights

and architects and philosophers founded a culture we still identify with. And they introduced

us to many ideas, from democracy to fart jokes. And the

Greeks gave the west our first dedicated history, they gave us our vocabulary for talking about politics.

Plus they gifted us our idealization of democracy, which comes from the government they had in Athens.

Past John: Mr. Green, Mr. Green, Mr. Green, Mr. Green — did you say fart jokes?

Present John: Uhh. You don’t ask about Doric, Ionian, or Corinthian columns. You don’t

ask about Plato’s allegory of the cave. It’s all scatological humor with you — It’s

time for the open letter? Really? Already? Alright.

An open letter [the whoopee cushion sounds]... Stan! To Aristophanes. Dear Aristophanes...

Oh right, I have to check the secret compartment. Stan, what... oh. Thank you, Stan. It’s

fake dog poo. How thoughtful.

So, good news and bad news, Aristophanes.

2,300 years after your death — this is the good news — you’re still a reasonably

famous. Only eleven of your forty plays survived, but even so, you’re called the Father of

Comedy; there are scholars devoted to your work.

Now, the bad news: Even though your plays are well-translated and absolutely hilarious,

students don’t like to read them in schools. There always like, why do we gotta read this

boring crap? And this must be particularly galling to you, because so much of what you

did in your career was make fun of boring crap, specifically in the form of theatrical

tragedies. Plus, you frequently used actual crap to make jokes. Such as when you had the

chorus in The Acharnians imagining a character in your play throwing crap at a real poet you didn’t like.

You, Aristophanes, who wrote that under every stone lurks a politician, who called wealth

the most excellent of all the gods... You, who are responsible for the following conversation:

"Praxagora: I want all to have a share of everything and everything to be in common;

there will no longer be either rich or poor; [...] I shall begin by making land, money,

everything that is private property, common to all. [...]

Blepyrus: But who will till the soil?

Praxagora: The slaves.

Blepyrus: Oh."

And yet you’re seen as homework! Drudgery! That, my friend, is a true tragedy. On the

upside, we did take care of slavery. It only took us two thousand years.

Best wishes, John Green

When we think about the high point of Greek culture, exemplified by the Parthenon and

the plays of Aeschylus, what we’re really thinking about is Athens in the fourth century

BCE, right after the Persian Wars. But Greece was way more than Athens; Greeks lived in

city-states which consisted of a city and its surrounding area. Most of these city-states

featured at least some form of slavery, and in all of them citizenship was limited to males. Sorry ladies...

Also, each of the city-states had its own form of government, ranging from very democratic

— unless you were a woman or a slave — to completely dictatorial. And the people who

lived in these cities considered themselves citizens of that city, not of anything that

would ever be called Greece. At least until the Persian wars.

So between 490 and 480 BCE, the Persians made war on the Greek City states. This was the

war that featured the battle of Thermopylae where three hundred brave Spartans battled

— if you believe Herodotus — five million Persians.

And also the battle of Marathon, which is a plain about 26.2 miles away from Athens.

The whole war started because Athens supported those aforementioned Ionian Greeks when they

were rebelling in Anatolia against the Persians. That made the Persian king Xerxes mad, so

he led two major campaigns against the Athenians, and the Athenians enlisted the help of all

the other Greek city-states. And in the wake of that shared Greek victory, the Greeks began

to see themselves as Greeks, rather than as Spartans, or Athenians or whatever.

And then Athens emerged as the de facto capital of Greece and then got to experience a Golden

Age, which is something that historians make up. But a lot of great things did happen during

the Golden Age, including the Parthenon, a temple that became a church and then a mosque

and then an armory until finally settling into its current gig as a ruin.

You also had statesmen like Pericles, whose famous funeral oration brags about the golden

democracy of Athens with rhetoric that wouldn’t sound out of place today. “If we look to

the laws, they afford equal justice to all in their private differences... if a man is

able to serve the state, he is not hindered by the obscurity of his condition.”

When you combine that high-minded rhetoric with the undeniable power and beauty of the

art and philosophy that was created in ancient Athens, it’s not hard to see it as the foundation

of Western civilization. And if you buy into this, you have to be glad that the Greeks

won the Persian Wars. But even if you put aside the slavery and other injustices in

Greek society, there’s still trouble.

Do I have to say it, seriously? FINE. TROUBLE RIGHT HERE IN RIVER CITY WITH A CAPITAL T

AND THAT RHYMES WITH P AND THAT STANDS FOR PELOPONNESE.

Pericles’s funeral oration comes from a later war, The Peloponnesian War, a thirty

year conflict between the Athenians and the Spartans. The Spartans did not embrace democracy

but instead embraced a kingship that functioned only because of a huge class of brutally mistreated

slaves. But to be clear, the war was not about Athens trying to get Sparta to embrace democratic

reform; wars rarely are. It was about resources and power. And the Athenians were hardly saintly

in all of this, as evidenced by the famous Melian Dialogue. Let’s go to the Thought Bubble.

So in one of the most famous passages of Thucydides’ history of the Peloponnesian War, the Athenians

sailed to the island of Melos, a Spartan colony, and demanded that the Melians submit to Athenian

rule. The Melians pointed out that they’d never actually fought with the Spartans and

were like, “Listen, if it’s all the same to you, we’d like to go Switzerland on this

one,” except of course they didn’t say that because there was no Switzerland.

To which the Athenians responded, and here I am quoting directly, “The strong do what

they can, and the weak suffer what they must.”

Needless to say, this is not a terribly democratic or enlightened position to take. This statement,

in fact, is sometimes seen as the first explicit endorsement of the so-called theory of Realism

in international relations. For realists, interaction between nations, or peoples, or

cultures is all about who has the power. Whoever has it can compel whoever doesn’t have it

to do pretty much anything.

So what did the meritocratic and democratic Athenians do when the Melians politely asked

not to participate in the fight? They killed all the Melian men and enslaved all the women and children.

So, yes, Socrates gave us his interrogative Method; Sophocles gave us Oedipus; but the

legacy of Ancient Greece is profoundly ambiguous, all the moreso because the final winner of

the Peloponnesian War were the dictatorial Spartans. Thanks for the incredible bummer, Thought Bubble.

So here’s a non-rhetorical question: Did the right side win the Persian wars?

Most classicists and defenders of the Western Tradition will tell you that of course we

should be glad the Greeks won. After all, winning the Persian war set off the cultural

flourishing that gave us the Classical Age. And plus, if the Persians had won with their

monarchy that might have strangled democracy in its crib and given us more one-man rule.

And that’s possible, but as a counter that argument, let’s consider three things:

First, it’s worth remembering that life under the Persians was pretty good, and if

you look at the last five thousand years of human history, you’ll find a lot more successful

and stable empires than you will democracies.

Second, life under the Athenians wasn’t so awesome, particularly if you were a woman

or a slave, and their government was notoriously corrupt. And ultimately the Athenian government

derived its power not from its citizens, but from the imperialist belief that Might Makes

Right. It’s true that Athens gave us Socrates, but let me remind you, they also killed him.

Well, I mean they forced him to commit suicide. Whatever, Herodotus, you’re not the only

one here who can engage in historical bias.

And lastly, under Persian rule the Greeks might have avoided the Peloponnesian War,

which ended up weakening the Greek city-states so much that Alexander “Coming Soon” the

Great’s father was able to conquer all of them, and then there were a bunch of bloody

wars with the Persians and all kinds of horrible things, and Greece wouldn’t glimpse democracy

again for two millennia. All of which might have been avoided if they’d just let themselves

get beaten by the Persians.

All of which forces us to return to the core question of human history: What’s the point

of being alive? I’ve got good news for you, guy. You’re only going to have to worry

about it for about 8 more seconds. Should we try to ensure the longest, healthiest,

and most productive lives for humans? If so, it’s easy to argue that Greece should have

lost the Persian Wars. But perhaps lives are to be lived in pursuit of some great ideal

worth sacrificing endlessly for. And if so, maybe the glory of Athens still shines, however dimly.

Those are the real questions of history: What’s the point of being alive? How should we organize

ourselves, what should we seek from this life? Those aren’t easy questions, but we’ll

take another crack at them next week when we talk about the Buddha. I’ll see you then.

Crash Course is produced and directed by Stan Muller, our script supervisor is Danica Johnson,

the graphics team is Thought Bubble, and the show is written by my high school history

teacher Raoul Meyer and me.

Our phrase of the week last week was "Un mot de français". If you’d like to guess this

week’s phrase of the week you can do so in comments. You can also ask questions about

today’s video in comments where our team of historians will attempt to answer them.

Thanks for watching, and Don't Forget To Be Awesome.