Michael Malice: Marxism and Communism

Summary

The video script delves into the early 20th-century ideological landscape, exploring the blurred lines between socialism, communism, and anarchism. It discusses the vision of a scientifically managed society, the disagreements within these movements, and the role of violence in achieving societal change. The conversation touches on the influence of the Industrial Revolution, the progressive ideas of Woodrow Wilson, and the worldwide workers' revolution. It also contemplates the unpredictability of historical events and the complexities of implementing socialist and communist ideals.

Takeaways

• 📚 The terms 'socialist', 'communist', and 'anarchist' were used interchangeably at the end of the 19th century, reflecting a vision of a future society without a state.
• 🔬 There was a belief in the inevitability and scientific nature of socialism as the future societal structure, despite disagreements on its practical form.
• ⚔️ A significant disagreement between socialists, anarchists, and communists centered on the role of the state and the means to achieve a classless society.
• 🏭 The Industrial Revolution and Marxist thought influenced the idea that society could be scientifically managed for the benefit of all, rather than being driven by capitalist interests.
• 🌐 The concept of socialism as a broad umbrella included various wings, from state socialism to localized worker control, reflecting diverse interpretations of Marx's ideas.
• 🌟 The end goal of some socialists was a stateless society, influenced by thinkers like Bakunin, who opposed Marx's view of a transitional state run by the state.
• 🗳️ Some socialists, like the Fabian socialists, believed in achieving change through the ballot box and gradualism, while others advocated for more radical, revolutionary means.
• 💥 The role of violence in achieving societal change was a contentious issue, with some seeing it as necessary for revolution and others advocating for peaceful means.
• 🌍 The idea of a worldwide workers' revolution was prevalent, with the belief that the working class would unite across national borders to overthrow capitalist exploitation.
• 🎨 The late 19th and early 20th centuries were a time of intellectual and artistic ferment, with modernist thinking challenging traditional norms and exploring new possibilities for society.
• 🎅 The script also touches on the cultural significance of Christmas as a time of joy, kindness, and hope, contrasting the cynicism of modern culture with the holiday's spirit of generosity.

Q & A

How were the terms 'socialist', 'communist', and 'anarchist' used interchangeably at the end of the 19th century?

At the end of the 19th century, these terms were used loosely because they all prophesied a Marxist society where the state would eventually wither away. There was a shared belief in the inevitability and scientific basis of socialism as the future, despite disagreements on its practical implementation.

What were the two clear points of agreement among socialists, anarchists, and communists at the turn of the 19th to 20th century?

The two clear points were that socialism was seen as both inevitable and scientific, representing the way of the future, and that the capitalist ruling class would not surrender power without a struggle.

How did the Industrial Revolution influence the thinking of socialists at that time?

The Industrial Revolution brought about the idea that with technology and science, society could be managed scientifically. This influenced socialists to believe in the possibility of a society that produced only what was needed, eliminating waste and suffering, through the use of engineers and scientific management.

What was the main disagreement between Marx and Bakunin regarding state socialism?

Marx advocated for state socialism where the state would run everything as a means to an end, eventually leading to a stateless society where everyone is equal. Bakunin, on the other hand, saw the state as inherently immoral and advocated for worker collectives and ultra-localized control, aiming for a stateless society from the outset.

What was the role of Woodrow Wilson in the context of the script?

Woodrow Wilson is mentioned as an example of progressivism, where the idea was to use technology and scientific management to improve society, moving away from what was seen as the wastefulness of federal capitalism.

What was the concept of a worldwide workers' revolution as discussed in the script?

The concept of a worldwide workers' revolution was based on the idea that workers globally would unite against exploitation, recognizing their shared interests across national boundaries. It was believed that this unity would lead to a collective overthrow of the capitalist system.

What was the role of violence in the disagreements between different socialist groups?

Violence was a contentious issue. Some groups, like the Fabians, believed in achieving change through the ballot box and peaceful means, while others, like the anarchists, believed that revolution and the use of violence were necessary to overthrow the existing system and seize control of factories.

How did the script discuss the role of free speech in the context of advocating for violent revolution?

The script mentions that there was a debate about the limits of free speech, especially when it came to advocating for violence and revolution. The publication of books on how to build bombs, like the one by Johann Most, raised concerns about the potential dangers of such information being widely available.

What was the significance of Mabel Dodge Luhan's salon in the script?

Mabel Dodge Luhan's salon is highlighted as a place where intellectuals, artists, and activists from various backgrounds, including anarchists and labor union members, gathered to discuss and debate ideas. It represents a cultural and intellectual space that contributed to the modernist thinking of the time.

What is the script's perspective on the inevitability of history and the role of Santa Claus as a metaphor?

The script rejects the idea that history is inevitable, arguing instead for the unpredictability of historical events. It also humorously uses the metaphor of Santa Claus to discuss the concept of arbitrary redistribution of wealth, contrasting it with the idea of communism.

How does the script view the concept of equality and its relation to human nature?

The script suggests that legal and ethical concepts of equality do not change the fundamental nature of humans, which is not equal. It argues that despite legal frameworks that treat people as equals, people will always have natural preferences for their own families or groups over strangers.

What is the script's stance on the possibility of predicting major historical events?

The script argues that predicting major historical events is extremely difficult, if not impossible, due to the many unpredictable turns in history. It cites the Bolshevik Revolution and the Great Depression as examples of events that were not foreseen.

Outlines

00:00

📚 The Early 20th Century Socialist Debates

The script opens with a discussion on the interchangeable use of terms like 'socialist', 'communist', and 'anarchist' during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It highlights the belief in socialism's inevitability and scientific basis, as well as the disagreements between different factions regarding the state's role in a socialist system. The script mentions the impact of the Industrial Revolution and the idea of using technology to manage society efficiently, contrasting state socialism with the more localized, worker-controlled vision of anarchism. It also touches on the debate over the necessity of violence in achieving societal change and the varying approaches to achieving a socialist or communist society.

05:02

🗣️ The Role of Violence and Free Speech in Revolutionary Thought

This paragraph delves into the contentious issue of violence as a means to achieve revolution, contrasting the Fabian socialists' belief in peaceful change through the ballot box with the anarchists' conviction that violent revolution was necessary. It discusses the legal and ethical implications of advocating for violent revolution, including the historical context of bombings and assassinations as a form of protest. The script also explores the role of free speech, especially in relation to Johann Most's publication on bomb-making, and the broader implications of such actions on society and the potential for authoritarian responses to violence.

10:02

🤔 Reflections on Political Ideologies and Personal Affiliations

The speaker contemplates their own political identity in the context of historical events, considering whether they would have been an anarchist, socialist, or communist. The narrative includes a discussion of the intellectual and artistic circles of the early 20th century, where modernist thinking and the birth of new political ideologies were prevalent. It reflects on the allure of communism as a new and promising system aimed at uplifting the working class and the intellectual's role in advocating for or against such systems, acknowledging the complexity and non-obviousness of political beliefs.

15:03

🕊️ The Promise and Pitfalls of Communism and Socialism

This section of the script explores the appeal of communism and socialism, particularly in the context of the early 20th century, as systems that aimed to provide for the basic needs of all citizens. It contrasts the idealistic vision of a society where everyone contributes and benefits equally with the harsh realities that can emerge from such systems, including the potential for authoritarianism and the loss of civil liberties. The speaker also discusses the unpredictability of political outcomes and the difficulty of foreseeing the long-term effects of political decisions.

20:05

🌟 The Cultural Impact of Christmas and Its Symbolism

The script concludes with a reflection on the cultural significance of Christmas as a holiday that embodies brotherhood, kindness, and generosity. It critiques the cynicism prevalent in contemporary culture and praises Christmas as a time when people can express joy and affection without judgment. The speaker shares a personal fondness for the holiday, especially as celebrated in New York, and discusses the symbolism of giving and receiving gifts as a form of expressing value and appreciation for others.

Keywords

💡Socialism

Socialism is an economic and political system where the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned or regulated by the community as a whole. In the context of the video, socialism is presented as an inevitable and scientific system for the future, with disagreements on its practical implementation. The script mentions a broad umbrella of socialism that includes the idea of a society scientifically run, with various wings including state socialism and a safety net concept.

💡Communism

Communism is a philosophical, social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state. The video discusses the Marxist vision of a society where the state has withered away and the idea of communism as a product of industrial revolutionary thinking.

💡Anarchism

Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is skeptical of authority and rejects all involuntary, coercive forms of hierarchy. In the script, anarchists are contrasted with communists, with the former advocating for stateless societies and the latter for state socialism. Anarchists like Bakunin are mentioned, who opposed the state as inherently immoral and preferred workers' collectives and localized control.

💡Industrial Revolution

The Industrial Revolution refers to the period during the 18th and 19th centuries where agrarian, rural societies became industrial and urban. The script mentions the Industrial Revolution as a catalyst for new thinking about society, including the ideas of Marx, who believed that with technology and science, society could be scientifically managed.

💡Progressivism

Progressivism is the support for or belief in the importance of continued development, improvement, or growth. In the video, progressivism is associated with Woodrow Wilson and the idea that society could be engineered by experts, such as engineers, to produce just what is needed, thereby eliminating waste and suffering.

💡Fabian Socialists

Fabian Socialists are members of the Fabian Society, which is a British socialist organization established in the late 19th century. They advocated for gradualist social reform rather than revolutionary change. The script refers to the Fabian Socialists' logo change from a wolf in sheep's clothing to a tortoise, symbolizing their approach to achieving socialism slowly.

💡Assassination

Assassination is the act of deliberately killing someone, often a public figure or leader. The script discusses the role of violence and assassination in political change, citing examples like the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, which triggered World War I, and the assassination of McKinley.

💡Dynamite

Dynamite is an explosive material. In the context of the video, the invention of dynamite is mentioned as a factor that exponentially increased the danger and threat of violence, especially in the context of anarchist actions and the potential for individuals to make bombs at home.

💡Anarcho-communism

Anarcho-communism is a theory of anarchism that advocates the abolition of the state, capitalism, wages, and private property, while proposing the establishment of a self-managed, classless society based on common ownership of the means of production and direct democracy. The script contrasts this with state socialism, highlighting the disagreement between anarchists and communists on the role of the state.

💡Cynicism

Cynicism, in the context of the video, refers to a general attitude of distrust or negative interpretation of others' motives. The speaker expresses disdain for the cultural glorification of cynicism and contrasts it with the spirit of Christmas, which embodies kindness and joy.

💡Violence

Violence in the script is discussed as a contentious means to achieve political ends, with some advocating for peaceful revolution through the ballot box and others, like anarchists, believing in the necessity of violent overthrow to achieve change. The script also explores the consequences and effectiveness of violence as a tool for revolution.

Highlights

The interchangeable use of 'socialist', 'communist', and 'anarchist' terms at the end of the 19th century due to the envisioned Marxist society without a state.

The inevitability and scientific nature of socialism as a future societal structure, opposed by the capitalist ruling class.

The disagreement between socialists, anarchists, and communists on the practical implementation of a socialist system.

The Industrial Revolution's influence on the thinking of socialism and the idea of scientifically managing society.

Woodrow Wilson's progressive ideas on using technology and federal capitalism to avoid waste and shortages.

The broad definition of socialism at the time, encompassing the idea of a scientifically run society.

The debate between Marx's state socialism and Bakunin's vision of worker collectives and localized control.

The role of violence in revolution and the differing views among socialists, anarchists, and communists.

The Fabian socialists' approach to achieving socialism through the ballot box and gradualism.

The worldwide workers' revolution concept and the international solidarity of the working class.

The role of free speech and the controversy over advocating violence and revolution.

The unpredictable nature of political movements and the difficulty of foreseeing the outcomes of revolutionary actions.

The cultural and intellectual environment of the early 20th century, fostering modernist thinking in art, literature, and politics.

The moral case for socialism, ensuring that no one is left behind and everyone's basic needs are met.

The critique of capitalism's profit-driven media and the potential benefits of a state-run media apparatus.

The challenge of predicting the trajectory of the 20th century, with many unforeseen historical events.

The glorification of cynicism in culture and the unique joy and kindness associated with the Christmas holiday.

Transcripts

let me ask you uh let's start at the

beginning at the end of the 19th century

as you write the term socialist

Communists and anarchists were used

somewhat Loosely and interchangeably

because the prophecied Marxist Society

was one in which the state had famously

withered away there was a great

disagreement about what a socialist

system would look like in practice but

two things were clear first that

socialism was both inevitable and

scientific the way of the future and

second that the capitalist ruling class

were not going down without a fight so

what are the key points of disagreement

between the Socialists the anarchists

the Communists along that at that time

at the beginning at the end of the 19th

century at the beginning of the 20th

century the possibility of the century

laid before us that eventually led to

the first and the second world war the

idea when the Industrial Revolution came

and Marx was very much a product of

industrial revolutionary thinking was

okay now that we have technology now

that we have science we can

scientifically manage Society we saw

this very much with Woodrow Wilson and

this kind of idea of progressivism that

uh you know we could use technology and

kind of not capitalism in their view on

federal capitalism was wasteful you're

making too much stuff you have surpluses

you have uh shortages if we produce just

exactly what we need and you have these

people Engineers their engineering

Society then you know everyone will be

happy and you won't have to have any

suffering or waste so socialism at that

time was used as a broad umbrella it's

not used in the term that it means today

of

um necessarily State socialism it just

meant the idea of having Society

scientifically run so you had a huge

argument they're different Wings you

even had it from the beginning with uh

Marx versus bakunan because Marx was for

obviously State socialism uh the

absolute State running everything

although even with Marx and Engels it

was a means to an end after man is

remade in his very nature then and the

state where there's a way and everyone's

equal and you have this kind of Heaven

on Earth situation but kunin you know

was the opposite he regarded the state

as inherently immoral and wanted to have

kind of like workers collectives and

things like that and Ultra localized

control so the end was always stateless

it's just that some people viewed this

date as a convenient effective

intermediate State well I think to me at

least there are plenty of others who

just regarded it you know have the work

have state owner have the workers you

know control the production via the

state by the way how does my hat look it

looks great festive it's good is this

side better than the other side I think

you want it on this side so people can

see you oh no no I want to you know like

uh when you have like hair or peekaboo

hair it's called Veronica Lake I think

was her name and then I just glance

flirtatiously towards the camera

sometimes I gotta um

foreign

no glove No Love

the bad the bad aspect of white gloves

is um

the blood stains them

so you have to get new ones every time

and now I glance flirtatiously after

that's there I'm sorry okay but couldn't

Marx go ahead so so there were there

were there were other socialists who did

not regard uh this kind of end times

where the state was the other way at all

um and they're you know various strains

in between where you know you'd have

some capitalism and some socialism uh

you know the concept of a safety net uh

came out of socialist thinking the labor

party uh came out of the Fabian

socialists in Great Britain uh their

their logo was a wolf in sheep's

clothing and then when that was two on

the nose they changed it to a tortoise

meaning we're gonna get to socialism

slowly uh in the sense of either uh

gradualism or boiling a frog and also

the big part of this thinking at the

time this is again the late 19th century

is the idea that there's going to be a

worldwide workers Revolution it wasn't

going to be that you know in one country

you know it was going to happen and then

all the other countries be capitalists

the idea was all right uh like the

workers in Germany have more income with

the workers in America then the workers

in Germany have with the capitalists in

Germany so the idea is all right like

the working class all over the world at

one point they're going to be like we're

being exploited uh it's getting worse

and worse for us we can't feed our

families uh we're getting injured and so

on and so forth and there's no

compensation for this we're just going

to overthrow our chains and we're going

to run everything ourselves we're the

ones running it already anyway

um and you know this was uh doing all

the work and we're doing all the work so

why why shouldn't we be getting all the

benefit

what's the role of violence in all of

this

so this was a big source of contention

so the fabians for example in Britain

who are all socialists they were very

heavily of the idea that we can do this

through The Ballot Box we can Advocate

and uh agitate and get the people to be

voting for their own self-interest and

furthering the state at the expense of

the capitalist class then there were the

people who were the hardcore anarchists

who were like uh if voting changed

anything they wouldn't let us do it and

the only way to have a revolution is to

have a revolution to kill to overthrow

to seize these factories and this was a

big argument uh and it also fed into the

idea of where does Free Speech end uh

are is it legal to be giving speeches

advocating for violence and revolution

is illegal Johann most you know who I

discuss in the book and in the

anarchistan book he published a book in

the 1800s about how to build dynamite

and how to build bombs and this is a big

Free Speech concern at the time because

now anyone in their own house can make a

bomb and kill lots of people and this is

something that was happening with

enormous frequency at the time and

people tend to think you know because we

have these kind of prejudices or we only

remember what's happening now but this

was a I mean World War II excuse me

World War One got started with the

assassination of Arctic Franz Ferdinand

there were lots of people McKinley's

another one who I discussed in the book

his assassination there was lots of

violence happening uh very regularly and

with the creation of dynamite it kind of

exponentially became more dangerous and

threatening even now um on Wall Street

there was a bomb that went off I think

in the 1920s and the shards of shrapnel

are still in the JP Morgan building I

believe

do you ever think if you were alive

during that time what you would be doing

you think of yourself as an anarchist

right would you be where would you be

would you be a socialist a communist

which parties would you attend uh

figuratively and the thing that was so

interesting back then is there was a

woman named Mabel Dodge Luhan uh and she

ended her days in Taos New Mexico she

found an artist colony and she had an

apartment on 9th Ave 9th Street and

Fifth Avenue in Manhattan uh a shadow

salon and everyone got together and

talked and you'd have Emma Goldman who's

an anarchist Margaret Sanger who

invented Planned Parenthood and

advocated for birth control and you'd

have the people from the wobblies the

the hardcore labor unions and everyone

kind of menkin didn't attend but

he was friends with them all so there

was this very weird

with the birth of modernism in art and

and kind of modernist thinking there was

this idea of like all right like this

was the first time where you could be

intellectual as a class where there

really was this space for people who are

thinkers and they just sat around being

like all right like what are we gonna do

with ourselves uh you know and you have

it in modern art you had it in

literature you had it in politics

um so it was a very exciting time where

people were like all right like

everything is now on the table what are

we gonna do with this and they very much

were aware that this was a break with

you know the pre-industrial revolution

uh kind of farmer labor era do you see

do you think for you violence would be

compelling no first of all I'm just too

small

um but second I I just Dynamite

doesn't care about your size yeah but I

mean retribution does and I I think I I

don't know but to me violence is the

kind of thing where you think you're

running it but it's running you uh once

you you know cross that line you know

violence sings its own song so whenever

I hear even contemporary tabs where

people are advocating for you know

violent actions it's like when you start

a fire you're not like I'm just gonna

burn down this house you know it's it's

and there's many cases over and over of

people who are building bombs or trying

to assassinate someone or or things like

that and it ended up literally literally

literally blowing up in their own face

so and violence doesn't really work

necessarily because you know if you have

an assassination you're not

assassinating the presidency you know if

you take out you know a president

there's another president instantly

there so what have you accomplished

someone's husband Dad is gone you

replace them with someone who now is in

a position to crack down and retaliate

with even more violence so it's it the

the calculus for me Isn't there would I

be advocating it for then who knows

um but I mean I don't know if I'd uh be

above the space to be I certainly

wouldn't have the space to be a

podcaster or like a media personality

that wasn't really a thing it to some

extent it was in the 1920s with the

Algonquin Roundtable and all the people

from The New Yorker magazine

um but they were all drunks you know it

was very much uh um uh a weird kind of

situation to be a thinker what would you

think you'd do work at a carnival you

look good in lipstick so thank you

um I look at anything

um what would I I don't know I mean

you're not building robots I mean you

could have been a Tesla right okay I

didn't mean a car I meant the person

like I understand oh thank you for

explaining the Woody comments to me at

all because you went to an Einstein

because your name he was an immigrant so

I wouldn't work with the name again what

does that even mean no you would have

been a Tesla like figure there's already

a Tesla so you wouldn't literally be

Tesla that's why I said a Tesla oh ah

Tesla okay so all right I thank you for

the explanation see Mike Michael doesn't

only make funny things he also explains

them for you it wasn't fun it wasn't

funny at all that I agree with okay

okay so yes when when you achieve see

this is why Kanye didn't like you it's

this

all right I'm I'm downgrading you from a

nine down to an eight

and if you keep talking like this

uh a five is a real possibility all

right so uh vacuum is the kind of vacuum

that's created with violence is is

usually

um filled with like a with a harsh with

a harsher figure so so you don't think

violent revolution ultimately leads to a

positive Pro to positive progress in the

short term well sometimes it does the

American Revolution I think was a

positive example and overthrowing the

Czar which was done peacefully uh was a

positive example but again uh when

violence happens people get scared and

they want the violence stopped

immediately and that's a call for

authoritarianism and you see it time and

time again and and they also want

retribution they were like bring this

back to normal uh and they don't really

worry about things like civil liberties

or things like that it's it's a very uh

uh and then it also creates this space

for Invasion from foreign sources or

demagogues you know like oh look they're

killing us in the streets now you got to

support me it's it's a very uh

deadly game obviously I remember

somebody told me

that I forget where it was but they told

me that from the very beginning was

obvious that communism is an evil system

that would or a system that leads to

evil

and uh to me at least that's not if I

had to put put myself in the beginning

of the 20th century at the end of the

19th century that's totally not obvious

they are trying to elevate Humanity the

the basic worth of a human being of a

hard-working human being of the working

class of the people that are doing the

work and the striving and just uh really

trying to build up Society with their

own hands it just seems like a beautiful

ideal uh so I guess the question is

can you see yourself believing in that

in in the ideas of socialism and

communism yeah let's say if you're

living in Russia oh yeah easily so first

of all I I don't think anything is

obvious in politics

uh it's not obvious that you know uh

humans have rights it's not obvious that

Liberty is better or the Market's either

either whether you're for you know a

welfare state or you're for more free

markets not that those is obvious both

of them involve an enormous amount of

thought and background information so

when someone says something is obvious

in politics they really mean something

is apparent well it's not a parent on

its face that if we all get together and

promote a society based on equality and

we all chip in that it's gonna really be

good for everyone I mean that to me is

the promise of Communism

um and it was also very appealing to

many people because it was new

so the idea was all right we've tried it

these other ways there's all these

negative consequences you have all these

slums you have people getting you know

fired and then they have no recourse you

have women with 10 kids and they can't

feed their kids infant mortality you

don't have sanitation you don't have

food you know everyone's illiterate and

uneducated and then here's saying look

if we all chip in together everyone will

have clothes everyone have food everyone

will be educated everyone will do their

part it's going to be rough in the short

period that's a very compelling

case to be made for communism it's

really easy in many ways when something

hasn't been tried to make it sound

uh compelling because you just talk

about how great it's going to be and

then no one no one you know people are

always arguing about like Venezuela and

Sweden like oh we you know you want

Democratic socialism to be like Sweden

you don't want to be like Venezuela the

Venezuelans didn't vote for Venezuela

they voted for Sweden they ended up with

Venezuela so it's I think

and the thing with Communism especially

at that era it was very much a

correlated with uh people who are too

smart for their own good because they

had the idea that if we're just put in

charge instead of these like business

people or these heirs to Great Estates

if the people who are smart and get it

like us I don't mean you and me like the

people at the time who are advocating

for it once we're in charge since we're

good people and we want what's best for

everyone

um we're gonna make sure everyone's

taken care of and you know they always

talked about how much they cared about

the little guy and so I'm sure some of

them meant it a lot and they're like

look if the guy in charge is very much

concerned with the little guy he's not

going to slip between the cracks and

it's just going to be absolutely great

um and we don't have to worry about you

know uh you know the capitalist class

just basically exploiting people and

having these huge Estates while these

people can't even feed their own

families since we have a little bit of

momentum Can you steal me on the case

for socialism at that time and even

today

I don't know if it's

I don't know if there's a rhyme and uh

similarity to those to socialism as

implemented at that time and what could

possibly be implemented today but maybe

you can dance between the two the Steel

Man arguing for socialism is

if you have everything up to Private

Industry you do not have a guarantee

that someone won't fall between the

cracks and the other concern is in any

other context if someone is let's

suppose mentally ill right through no

fault of their own and they are or

someone's handicapped you know they

can't feed themselves or mentally

disable or something like that

if you have everything up to charity

some if this you see this with a

endangered species right the species

that are cute it's easy to raise money

for them to protect them some weird kind

of frog somewhere that no one cares

about you can't raise money for it

there's people's interests are to what

they find interesting so if someone is

someone who's like not socially

appealing in some way whatever capacity

they're gonna fall between the cracks

and they're screwed under socialism if

you have a government taking care of

everything no one is Left Behind you are

guaranteed that the lowest of the low

and the worst of the worst are still

going to make sure that they're not

starving the street or uh just left

behind so that is a big moral case to be

made for having the state running

everything in terms of economics it's a

lot harder but the argument there would

be it's why it's it's not fair a term

which in my view does not actually have

a good meaning but it's not fair that

because you were born a Rockefeller and

I was born in Poland that you never have

to worry about food for the rest of your

life whereas I have to worry about you

know paying for a doctor for my kid like

you just you won this Lottery when

you're born and now I have to be screwed

and I have to respect all your property

why so

um that is another strong argument to be

made for socialism and the other

argument is if you have a media

apparatus that is operated under

profit-seeking principles it is going to

feed into people's worst

qualities most basic animal-like

qualities and sensationalist qualities

and will be used as a mechanism for

capitalist control whereas if the

government which represents all of this

all of us is running things then

everyone will have a right to have their

voice heard and won't be manipulated

that's the argument what about the

reaching towards the stateless version

sort of uh because you espouse the ideas

of anarchism it kind of has the same

conclusion which is reaching towards the

removal of the state to where we I guess

have

uh some distributed reallocation of

resources that are quote unquote fair

but the thing is the the Marxist vision

of the state with ringaway and uh

becoming anarchism it's really kind of

like um The Underpants Gnomes because

it's like tell me more well step one you

have marked something slowly

I'm sorry you have full communism the

state's running everything including

education step two question mark step

three anarchism so their idea was that

after enough time

the nature of man himself was going to

change changed and then the government

would be Superfluous because we would

all be uh equal and we would all

naturally or socially whatever term they

would use want to act the part that we

would need to do and in fact Reagan had

a great joke about this where there were

two where uh there were two commissars I

think in Moscow and one of them they're

walking around they're going is this it

uh is this have we done it have we

reached full communism the other goes oh

no it's going to get a hell of a lot

worse so you know that's kind of the

counter argument to that

do you think

culture Society can change the nature of

man no

so no matter you don't think this idea

that uh for example America has been

founded on that all men are created to

equal

that that idea can't permeate the

culture and in thereby change how we see

each other how we

think of the basic worth of a human

being and thereby change our nature it

doesn't change that's epigenetic I don't

I don't think that that changes the

nature of man I think for example if I

say someone which I agree with that if

someone is innocent he'll proven guilty

they're not literally innocent they're

regarded in a legal context as innocent

but that person is or is not a murderer

or thief or so on and so forth so we can

legally and ethically regard everyone as

equal but as Thomas sull pointed out a

human being isn't even equal to himself

over the course of a day twins who are

genetic clones are not equal to one

another so it is a important thing

legally and it's a good yardstick but

it's not literally true but don't you

think that law becomes ethics so we

um

we that like idea of Justice starts to

like we start to internalize it that we

just

the way we behave the way we think about

the world no I I I think it's a complete

red herring because no one is no you're

a red herring okay see what I did there

um

because

someone is people are still going to

always prefer their family to strangers

or they're in group to our group so in

terms if you're going to have equality

that means it's going to not matter to

you whether someone is your mom or

someone is you know someone down the

street and I don't see how that will

ever become the case do you think it

would be possible if you were an

intellectual

uh like you are at the beginning of the

20th century would you be able to

predict the rest of the 20th century no

I I don't think at all I think there

were so many

um out of nowhere turns that no one

would have seen their them coming for

and as an example

um Lenin seizing power and making the

Bolshevik Revolution a reality was

regarded as utopian and insane uh the

fact that he pulled it off is close to

miraculous and it was quite literally

unprecedented

um the fact that so that's a very big

one which aspect of it sorry to

interrupt which aspect was hard to

predict that a singular figure with just

some ideas would be able to take so much

power and and maintain that power and

remake that Society so drastically so

quickly despite such opposition also not

just a set of temporary protests by

Hooligans that lead to

um turmoil in the short term but then

stabilizes but literally changes the

entirety of the society yeah ludendorf

it was the German general he's like all

right we got to get this the Russians

out of world war one he's the one who's

like all right let's get this lunatic

Lenin who already tried and failed to

have a Revolution in Russia let's send

them back there and he's just gonna

cause problems to everybody and it's

going to be great because it's gonna

weaken Russia and then our Eastern Front

isn't going to have to be a problem and

then to his surprise and everyone else

is including you know anarchists and

Communists worldwide uh they pulled off

this you know October Revolution and

then for a while it's like all right I

mean I mean I think my understanding is

even people at the time in St Petersburg

and in Moscow were like what does this

even mean right like no one took it

seriously and then very quickly you had

the checkout and and the secret police

and all these other kind of

implementations of the you know the

communist state and people like oh

they're not messing around but they're

like all right this is this is not going

to last for for long and you know the

USA the US and day we didn't even

recognize the Soviet Union's legitimacy

for a very long time there were no

diplomatic relations after a certain

point it's like who's the if you don't

recognize Lenin and Stalin's government

who's the government of this of Russia

or the Soviet Union is it the Czar like

you have to recognize that it's just

they're not going anywhere so that was

something that was not I I think very

predictable the Great Depression in

retrospect there were certain things

that were predictable but it was not at

all the case that it needed to last as

long as it did in the states as FDR made

it do so there's all sorts of things I

mean if they uh um

fought Germany's re-militarization near

World War World War II could have been

prevented if you didn't have the Treaty

of Versailles would you have the

hyperinflation would you have Hitler

these are all I think Choose Your Own

Adventure moments where things could

have gone in other directions I don't I

don't believe this kind of idea this is

a very Marxist idea that like history is

inevitable and once you start with

certain premises the contradictions kind

of unfold I think it's ridiculous I feel

that there's power in the Santa Claus

outfit yeah I mean it's a fundamentally

communist idea right Santa Claus

arbitrary redistribution of wealth it's

not redistribution well at least I

decide who's good and bad only I only I

know this

and I mean I am somehow getting funding

from somewhere right no

okay listen there's I have so much to

teach you little Michael Workshop yeah

and how many people do you think are

employed in this Workshop they're slaves

yes I don't know how many elves are in

the workshop uh I think the rest of you

are gonna have to look into it no anyway

in the red colors and everything is that

the biggest holiday of all time

Christmas like just in terms of

the intensity of the festivities no I

think Christmas is a very recent

phenomenon I think historically it was

not a big deal now I know historical has

not been but in terms of

how much it captivates how intense it is

I guess from a capitalist perspective

like how much is going on how visual it

is how intense it is I think it grabs a

whole population I think it's because

the idea of Christmas is

probably the one of the most powerful

holiday ideas uh Easter is probably up

there is there's obviously up there

because you have Christ's resurrect

Christ dying his resurrection so that's

kind of a big one but but Christmas is

the symbol of Brotherhood and kindness

and magnanimity you know one of the

things I despise about our culture is

this glory and something I'm fighting

very heavily with this book or at least

attempting to is this glorification of

cynicism this kind of like oh you like

this song that's cute stupid

um whereas Christmas is the one time of

year where you could be happy and joyous

and kind and people don't get to roll

their eyes at you they get to stop being

too cool for school and they get to be

like you know I enjoy your friendship

your your my sister my brother my dad my

mom whatever and it's the you know I was

Iran's favorite holiday I adore it and

especially Christmas in New York and

it's just this idea of like even though

we're called and it's dark outside you

know it's still it's kind of like it's

still cozy and you and the next let's

hope the next year is because with with

Russians Santa comes on New Year's so

it's kind of like let's make this next

year an even better one so it's very

much the holiday of Hope and joy

and like love for family for friendship

and kindness and benevolence yeah and

like almost the whole that whole rat

race of uh chasing material possessions

and all that gets put on hold for beef

moment it just all goes quiet but it's

also about giving people material

possessions like here like I value you

this is something that brings you Joy

yeah yeah you write in the book which by

the way

people should go get by right now if you

support this podcast or if you support

the ridiculous office that Michaels wear

wears the more books you buy the more

outfits he is going to wear I've got two

my next two appearances in the show

assuming I don't burn this bridge I've

got some good ones this bridge

has been burning for a long time we've

been going across the road by Kent canoe

at this point next time we're going to

be swimming

um how the hell are you gonna swim

yeah it's true sink to the bottom get

dragged across by rope