Rollo May: The Human Dilemma (Part One Complete): Thinking Allowed with Jeffrey Mishlove

Summary

In this insightful conversation, Dr. Rollo May, a pioneer in existential psychology, discusses the discipline's unique approach to understanding human anxiety and creativity. He emphasizes the importance of embracing anxiety as a gateway to exploring life's meaning and fostering creativity, rather than as a symptom to be eliminated. Dr. May critiques modern society's tendency to avoid deep existential issues and advocates for a new age focused on truth, joy, and beauty, which he believes will lead to a more fulfilling and meaningful existence.

Takeaways

• 📚 Dr. Rollo May is a pioneer in existential psychology and a founding sponsor of the Association for Humanistic Psychology, known for his work on existential and clinical psychology.
• 🏆 He was awarded the Distinguished Career in Psychology award by the American Psychological Association for his contributions to the field.
• 📖 Dr. May authored several classic books, including 'The Courage to Create', 'Love and Will', 'The Meaning of Anxiety', 'Freedom and Destiny', and 'Psychology and the Human Dilemma'.
• 🌐 Existential psychology differs from other clinical approaches by relying on a philosophical model, emphasizing concepts such as anxiety and individual courage, rather than a medical or behavioral model.
• 🔑 Anxiety, according to Dr. May, is not just a symptom but a gateway to explore the meaning of life and a stimulus for creativity and courage.
• 💀 The awareness of our mortality is a source of normal anxiety, which can be channeled into creative endeavors and meaningful activities.
• 🆓 Freedom is also a source of anxiety, as it brings with it the responsibility of making choices and facing their consequences.
• 🎭 Modern culture often attempts to divert and cope with fundamental anxiety through superficial pleasures, rather than embracing and transforming it into something more profound.
• 🔮 Dr. May criticizes the New Age movement for oversimplifying issues and avoiding real problems, advocating instead for a deeper existential exploration.
• 🎵 He believes that true joy comes from using one's talents for great aims and from the creative process, which involves facing and overcoming despair and anxiety.
• 🚀 Dr. May foresees a shift in society towards a new age that values truth, joy, understanding, and beauty, rather than material wealth and superficial happiness.

Q & A

What is the main topic of discussion in the interview with Dr. Rollo May?

The main topic of discussion is existential psychology, its foundations, and its application in clinical psychology as an alternative to medical and behavioral models.

How does Dr. May perceive existential psychology in relation to other forms of clinical psychology?

Dr. May sees existential psychology as a discipline that relies more on a philosophical model, emphasizing concepts such as anxiety and individual courage, in contrast to the medical or behavioral models commonly used in clinical psychology.

What role did Dr. May play in the establishment of existential psychology?

Dr. May was a founding sponsor of the Association for Humanistic Psychology and is recognized as a pioneer in the field of existential psychology and clinical psychology.

How does Dr. May interpret anxiety in the context of existential psychology?

Dr. May views anxiety not as a symptom to be removed but as a gateway for exploration into the meaning of life, a stimulus towards creativity and courage for those who are well-founded in their own hearts and souls.

What is Dr. May's perspective on the relationship between mortality and anxiety?

Dr. May believes that our awareness of mortality is a source of normal anxiety, which can motivate us to make the most of our lives and to engage in creative activities.

How does Dr. May differentiate between the concepts of happiness and joy in the context of existential psychology?

Dr. May sees happiness as a fleeting and superficial state, while joy is a deeper, more meaningful feeling that arises from using one's talents and understanding one's totality of being for great aims.

What does Dr. May identify as a significant issue in modern society in relation to existential psychology?

Dr. May points out that modern society tends to avoid anxiety through diversions and banal pleasures, rather than confronting it as a means to achieve true joy and creativity.

What is Dr. May's view on the current state of psychotherapy and its prevalence in society?

Dr. May suggests that the prevalence of psychotherapy is a sign of the decadence of our age, indicating that people are seeking help due to a lack of meaningful engagement with life's challenges.

How does Dr. May connect the ideas of love and will in his work?

Dr. May believes that love and will are interconnected and that a new way of love would involve people learning to be intimate again and forming genuine connections.

What is Dr. May's stance on the New Age movement and its approach to existential issues?

Dr. May is critical of the New Age movement, arguing that it oversimplifies problems and avoids dealing with the real issues of existence, such as anxiety, guilt, and the purpose of life.

How does Dr. May view the role of mysticism in existential psychology?

Dr. May sees mysticism, particularly the works of Western mystics like Jakob Boehme and Meister Eckhart, as a model of deep existential exploration that involves a genuine rebellion against the herd instinct and a search for the divine within.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Introduction to Existential Psychology

The conversation begins with Jeffrey Mishlove introducing Dr. Rollo May, a pioneer in existential psychology and clinical psychology, and discussing his contributions to the field. Dr. May is recognized for establishing existential psychology as an independent discipline, which diverges from the medical and behavioral models by emphasizing a philosophical approach. The discussion highlights Dr. May's belief in the importance of embracing anxiety as a catalyst for creativity and personal growth, rather than as a symptom to be treated.

05:04

🔑 Anxiety and Freedom as Catalysts for Creativity

In this segment, Dr. May delves into the concept of anxiety as a gateway to exploring the meaning of life, rather than merely a symptom to be eradicated. He contrasts this with the medical model of psychology and emphasizes the role of individual courage and the philosophical underpinnings of existential psychology. The conversation explores the idea that freedom and the awareness of mortality are sources of anxiety but also essential for human creativity and the pursuit of joy.

10:07

🌐 The Decline of Modern Society and the Rise of Psychotherapy

Dr. May critiques modern society's tendency to avoid anxiety through materialism and superficial pleasures, suggesting that this avoidance is a sign of societal decay. He discusses the historical pattern of psychotherapy's rise at the end of an era, indicating a collective struggle to find meaning and purpose. Dr. May also touches on the cultural shift from the Renaissance to the present, suggesting that we are on the cusp of a new age that will prioritize truth, joy, and understanding over material success.

15:07

💭 The Importance of Philosophy and Existential Exploration

The discussion turns to the role of philosophy in understanding human existence and the importance of existential exploration. Dr. May criticizes the modern tendency to reduce philosophy to a mere adjunct to science and emphasizes the need for a philosophical search for truth that can lead to personal fulfillment and creativity. He also discusses the potential for a new age of intimacy and friendship, as opposed to the current alienation and helplessness felt by many.

20:08

🚫 Critique of New Age Movements and the Need for Genuine Mysticism

Dr. May expresses his skepticism towards the New Age movement, viewing it as an oversimplification that avoids confronting real problems. He contrasts this with the depth and challenges faced by historical mystics, who provided profound insights into the human condition despite facing persecution. The conversation highlights the need for a genuine mysticism that involves rebellion against societal norms and a confrontation with life's difficulties.

25:11

🎭 The Intersection of Art, Joy, and Existential Rebellion

The final paragraph explores the connection between art, joy, and the existential rebellion against societal norms. Dr. May uses the example of Mozart and Beethoven to illustrate how great art can emerge from despair and lead to profound joy. The conversation concludes with a reflection on the value of life's challenges and the importance of facing despair and anxiety as a path to creativity and fulfillment.

Keywords

💡Existential Psychology

Existential Psychology is a branch of psychology that emphasizes individual existence, freedom, and choice. It is deeply rooted in philosophical thought and differs from clinical psychology that relies on medical or behavioral models. In the video, Dr. Rollo May is recognized as a pioneer in this field, emphasizing the importance of confronting anxiety and embracing the struggle of human existence as a pathway to personal growth and creativity.

💡Anxiety

Anxiety, in the context of this video, is portrayed not merely as a negative symptom but as a catalyst for self-exploration and creativity. Dr. May discusses how anxiety is associated with the awareness of one's mortality and freedom, and it can be a driving force for individuals to engage in meaningful and creative endeavors, rather than being a condition to be medicated away.

💡Creativity

Creativity is highlighted as an essential human trait that emerges from the confrontation with anxiety and the desire to make the most of one's life. The video suggests that through the process of creation, individuals can find joy and fulfillment, as exemplified by the works of Mozart and Beethoven, which were born out of their deep emotional experiences, including anxiety.

💡Freedom

Freedom is a central concept in the video, referring to the human capacity to make choices and bear the consequences of those choices. Dr. May argues that freedom is the source of anxiety but also the path to joy and fulfillment. It is through embracing freedom that individuals can live a life of meaning and purpose.

💡Mortality

Mortality is the awareness of one's own death and the limited time one has to live. In the video, it is mentioned as a fundamental aspect of the human condition that leads to normal anxiety. This awareness is what propels individuals to seek meaning and engage in creative activities, as a way to leave a lasting impact.

💡Joy

Joy, as discussed in the video, is distinguished from fleeting happiness or pleasure. It is described as a deep sense of fulfillment that arises from using one's talents and understanding one's totality of being for great aims. Dr. May suggests that true joy comes from embracing life's challenges and is closely linked to the creative process.

💡Courage

Courage is presented as a vital quality for individuals to face life's challenges and uncertainties. It is the courage to create and to confront one's anxieties that leads to personal growth and the discovery of joy. The video emphasizes that courage is what makes us truly human and is a key element in existential psychology.

💡Modern Society

The video critiques modern society for its tendency to avoid anxiety through materialism and superficial pleasures, rather than embracing the deeper existential issues. Dr. May suggests that this avoidance is a sign of societal decadence and that a shift towards valuing truth, beauty, and understanding is necessary for a new age of fulfillment.

💡Psychotherapy

Psychotherapy is discussed as a response to the needs of individuals in modern society who are grappling with existential anxieties. While Dr. May acknowledges the limitations and the symptomatic treatment approach of some psychotherapeutic practices, he also sees it as a crucial space where people can unburden themselves and explore their inner lives.

💡New Age Movement

The New Age Movement is criticized in the video for oversimplifying human problems and promoting a superficial sense of happiness that avoids confronting deeper existential issues. Dr. May contrasts this with the genuine mysticism and existential exploration that he believes is necessary for true personal growth and the emergence of a new age of enlightenment.

💡Mysticism

Mysticism, as discussed in the video, refers to a deep spiritual quest for the divine or ultimate truth. Dr. May distinguishes between the genuine mysticism of figures like Jakob Boehme and Meister Eckhart, who faced great personal challenges in their search for truth, and the superficial practices often associated with the New Age Movement.

Highlights

Dr. Rollo May is recognized as a pioneer in existential psychology and a founding sponsor of the Association for Humanistic Psychology.

Existential psychology is distinguished from clinical psychology by its reliance on a philosophical model rather than a medical or behavioral one.

Dr. May emphasizes the importance of anxiety as a gateway for exploring the meaning of life, rather than merely a symptom to be removed.

Creativity is associated with anxiety; it is a stimulus for individuals to create and make meaningful contributions.

Mortality and the awareness of our own demise contribute to normal anxiety, which can drive creative expression and living.

Freedom is identified as a source of anxiety, as it necessitates making choices and confronting their consequences.

Dr. May differentiates between momentary pleasure and the deeper joy that comes from fulfilling one's potential and purpose.

Modern society's attempts to avoid anxiety through material wealth and diversions are critiqued as ultimately unfulfilling.

The growth of psychotherapy reflects the end of an era, where traditional sources of meaning like religion and art have been supplanted by a need for individual exploration.

Dr. May predicts a new age focused on truth, joy, understanding, and beauty, as opposed to the current emphasis on material success and fear.

The existential approach to psychology is contrasted with Freudian and other deterministic views, offering a path to reconnect with one's will and consciousness.

Dr. May criticizes the New Age movement for oversimplifying human problems and avoiding the直面 of existential challenges.

Mysticism, particularly Western Christian mystics, is presented as a model for deep existential exploration and the search for divine connection.

Rebellion against societal norms and the herd instinct is seen as necessary for genuine mysticism and existential growth.

Despair, like anxiety, is acknowledged as having a constructive role in the journey toward joy and fulfillment.

The interview concludes with a reflection on the transformative power of existential psychology and its potential to unlock deep human experiences of joy and creativity.

Transcripts

thinking aloud conversations on the

leading edge of knowledge and discovery

with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove

hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey Mishlove

our topic today is existential

psychology and with me is dr. Rollo may

dr. may is one of the founding sponsors

of the association for humanistic

psychology and a genuine pioneer in the

field of existential psychology and

clinical psychology he was recently

awarded the distinguished career in

psychology award by the American

Psychological Association he's the

author of numerous classic books

including the courage to create love and

we'll the meaning of anxiety freedom and

destiny and psychology in the human

dilemma welcome dr. maté thank you it's

a pleasure to have you here you you're

really I think most known these days as

a pioneer in establishing existential

psychology is an independent discipline

in the clinical area and that's a

discipline which unlike most forms of

clinical psychology that rely on a

medical model or a behavioral model

relies more on a philosophical model and

you draw heavily on the works I think of

philosophers such as Sartre Heidegger

Kierkegaard who who deal with basic

notions such as anxiety in a different

way than most medical clinicians do yes

well when I was in my in the year I

think 56 or 57 the publishers called me

up and asked if I would edit a book on

European existential psychotherapy and I

was delighted to hear there was such a

book I had known a thing about the

existential movement but I knew that in

this country I believed in it very

firmly because they are the ones who

emphasize anxiety and they emphasize the

individual courage

they emphasize skilled feeling it has to

be taken into consideration at least and

they see human beings as struggling

sometimes successful sometimes not

successful and this was exactly the

model that we needed for psychotherapy

the medical model had turned out to be a

dead end and I were welcomed the chance

to edit this book of existential

chapters from Europe and it was it met

my own needs in my own heart

would I be correct in assuming that when

you speak of anxiety you don't think of

it as a symptom to be removed but rather

as a gateway for exploration into the

meaning of life yes well you get that

exactly right

I think anxiety is associated with

creativity when you're in a situation of

anxiety you can of course run away from

it and that's certainly not constructive

or you can take a few pills to get you

over it or cocaine or whatever else you

may take you could meditate whether

could meditate but I think none of those

things including meditation which I

happen to believe in but none of those

paths lead you to creative activity

what anxiety means is it's as though the

world is knocking at your door and they

need to create you need to make

something you need to do something and I

think anxiety thus is when for people

who are well-found their own heart and

their own souls for them it is a

stimulus toward toward creativity toward

courage is what makes us human beings

I suppose much of our anxiety comes from

the basic human dilemma of being mortal

of

having to confront our own demise we are

conscious of our own selves our own

tasks and also we know we're going to

die man is the only creature men women

and children sometimes even are the only

creatures who can be aware of their

death and out of that comes normal

anxiety when I let myself feel that then

I apply myself to new ideas I write

books I communicate with my fellows and

in other words the creative interchange

of human personality rests upon the fact

that we know we're going to die of that

the animals in the grass and so knows

nothing but our knowledge of our death

is what gives us a normal anxiety that

says to us make the most of these these

years you are alive and that's what I've

tried to do another source of anxiety

that you've described in your writing is

is our very freedom they know our

ability to make choices and to happen to

confront the consequences of those

choices it's right freedom is the also

the mother of anxiety if you had no

freedom you don't know anxiety that's

why the slaves and the film's are people

without any expression on their faces

they have no freedom but those of us who

do have are alert alive we're aware that

what we do matters and that we only have

about 70 or 80 or 90 years in which to

do it so why not do it and get joy out

of it rather than running away from it I

think that's a little capsule of the

meaning of anxiety but isn't there a

little bit of a conflict between feeling

anxiety and allowing oneself to be open

vulnerable to that feeling of anxiety

and then also seeking joy oh no the

a conflict between that and what's good

generally called happiness uh-huh or the

the flat I would speak of of the

meaningless forms of a feeling good I'm

not against anybody feeling good or

having happy hours but joy is something

different from that joy is the zest that

you get out of using your talents your

in understanding your the totality of

your being for great aims the musicians

they men who wrote music Mozart and

Beethoven and the rest of them they

always showed considerable anxiety

because they were in the process of

loving beauty of feeling joy when they

heard a beautiful combination and notes

now that's the kind of feeling that goes

with creativity that's why I say the

courage to create creation does that

come out of simply what you're born with

that must be united with your courage

which both both of which cause anxiety

but also great joy

it seems that much of our modern culture

though is an attempt to cope with this

fundamental anxiety by diversions in

what would you've called banal pleasures

yeah well you just put your finger on

the most significant aspect of modern

society and we try to avoid anxiety or

getting rich by making $100,000 when

we're 21 years of age by becoming

millionaires

now none of those things lead to the joy

the creativity that I'm talking about

one can own the world and still be

without the inner sense of

of pleasure of joy of courage of

creation and I think our society is in

the midst of a vast change the society

that began at the Renaissance on now is

ending and we are seeing the results of

this ending of us social period in the

fact that psychotherapy has grown with

such great zest almost every other

person in California is a

psychotherapist it seems that way yes at

us and this always happens when an age

is dying you see the Greeks began their

great age in the seventh sixth centuries

BC and then they talked of beauty and

goodness and truth all these great

things that the Philosopher's talked

about yes but by the third sense of 2nd

century BC in 1st century BC that had

all been forgotten the Philosopher's now

talked about security and they tried to

help people get along with this little

pain as possible and they made a models

for human beings beauty and truth and

goodness had been lost now our

Renaissance began the modern age and at

the beginning of an age there are no

psychotherapists this is taken care of

by religion and by art and by beauty by

music but at the end of an age every age

down through history it has been the

same every other person becomes a

therapist because there are no no ways

administering to people in need

and they form long lines the

psychotherapist office I think it's a

sign of the decadence of our age rather

than the sign of our great intelligence

I know when your book love and will you

refer to the great poem by TS Eliot the

wasteland and it is the way so many

people when it was first written at the

early part of this century seemed to

relate to it not understanding its

prophetic nature that it may it seemed

to characterize the the emptiness of

modern society yes this the king in the

wasteland remember was impotent and the

wheat and the grass did not grow but

therefore was a wasteland and he goes on

it marvelous detail just about that time

in the 1920s in the Jazz Age there was

written another book that is prophetic

that is the Great Gatsby mm-hmm

the movie was terrible but forget the

movie and take a take the book at scott

Fitzgerald god Fitzgerald it's a small

book was a marvelous picture of how our

age is disintegrating he ultimately dies

and dies a completely lonely man either

has nobody at the funeral and it's a

tragedy but Fitzgerald saw that this was

happening not in the Jazz Age then

everybody was earning lots of money and

trying out new styles just like nowadays

and but he knew what was going to happen

and therefore the Great Gatsby now we

are now in the age when those things

wasteland and the Great Gatsby are

coming to fruition and that's why I

believe that if our world survives and I

believe it will the nuclear threat if it

survives that we will move into a new

age when the emphasis will not be on

making

piles and piles of money and being

scared to death the stock market is

going to drop tomorrow but rather the

emphasis will be on on truth and joy

understanding and these beauty these

things that to my mind make life really

worth living

you've also characterized our present

ages as one in which modern man seems to

be robbed of his own free will that

through Freudian psychology and other

scientific movements we see the human

being is being influenced by

deterministic forces and threats of

great social movements nuclear war and

so on there's nothing that we can do

when and there's a feeling of

helplessness empiric alienation and yet

you suggest I think that through

philosophical and existential

exploration we can enter into a in

effect another state of consciousness

where we reconnect with our will at a

deeper level yes this is where I wrote

love and will because you cannot love

and as you also can will and I thought I

think and thought when I wrote that book

that a new way of love would come about

people would learn to be intimate again

they would write letters there would be

a feeling of friendship among people no

this is the new age that is coming and I

don't think it's about achieving a

philosophy see nowadays there are no

philosophers the last philosopher in

this country was Paul Tillich and people

now have given up and they now call

philosophy the kibbutz in on science a

way of simply looking over the

scientists shoulder and seeing how they

can help science put things together

that's that philosophy philosophy is a

deep search for a truth by which I can

fulfill myself

by which I can create philosophy the

basis of freedom that's the basis of

goodness - which seems to not trouble

many modern people but I think it's a

great mistake because of all of our lack

of ethics or lack of morality

we need goodness and we need beauty all

of those are philosophical terms but

beyond that you see I'm really a

psychotherapist I have to say all these

nasty things about psychotherapy it is

the way we have in our end of the 20th

century of helping many people to find

their themselves and they're a way of

life that will be satisfying and will

give them the joy that human beings have

certainly a right to have and I'm not

ashamed at all that I'm a

psychotherapist I became a therapist

because I saw that's where people

unburden themselves that's where people

will show what they have in their hearts

and they don't show that in philosophy

and they don't show it and well in most

religions these days they also don't

show it this is why so many people in

California join the cults now I happen

to believe in meditation and I do it

myself and we've learned a lot of things

from India and Japan but we cannot be

Indians or Japanese and we must find a

form of religious observation religious

experience that will fit us as pioneers

of the 21st century you a couple of

moments ago you referred to the term a

new age and of course the new age is

kind of a popular term these days for

for many different a wide scope of

activities and I would gather from my

familiarity with your work that you're

critical of a good

this is glossing over you know basic

human pain and attempting to make nice

and surely I suppose these are some of

the same criticisms perhaps that Freud

had a DJ you know it's very good to talk

with you because you've read up what

I've written and you know exactly which

way to turn no I don't like the New Age

movement

I think it's oversimplified makes

everybody feel temporarily happy but

they avoid the real problems and the New

Age can come only as we face anxiety as

we face guilt feeling for our or

misapprehension of what's the purpose of

life as a way we face death as a new

adventure now none of these things is

the New Age talked about talks about

only being gleeful and everybody singing

song but you know I've sensed another

paradox here I noticed in your book

freedom and destiny that you you have a

section on mysticism and you refer to

the Great Western mystics Jakob Amma and

Meister Eckhart and their search for for

the divine fire within themselves and

yes you seem to see that almost as well

I don't know quite what to say but

almost as a model of deep existential

trolling oh yes yes I'm very much a

believer and follower of these mystics

in our tradition I'm not a believer and

follower of rag neesh or the other

Maharishi er er Maharishi Muktananda

I followed the most companionable of

these leaders but most of them that come

from India be build up calls and get

into all kinds of trouble and are sued

for billions of dollars and the meat and

the cult and collapse

or like Jim Jones who took this 800 and

and 900 people to an island and there

they were going to set up perfect the

community and they all committed suicide

919 my sense is that your criticism goes

much deeper than just the scandals

themselves that my sense is that what

you're saying is that in this sort of

retreat to a a mystical Lotus land that

or perhaps even beliefs such as

spiritualism and reincarnation that

people are losing touch with the basic

issues of their very existence well

absolutely

well you said it beautifully I I'm very

critical of these movements that

soft-pedal our problems and that

indicate that we should forget them I

think it's the Mystics that you and I

were talking about

yeah Cabana was burned at the stake and

the other Christian mystics or a Mystics

of Mohammed ISM and so on back in our

tradition are very important and though

the church at the time opposed them are

they nevertheless left great books full

of knowledge that we can read we can

understand we can learn from well I know

that some of the existentialist

philosophers such as Camus and and

Sartre and perhaps even janay made quite

a bit about of the idea of rebelling

against the conventional mores of CEQA

of society and I sense that what you're

saying is a genuine mysticism has to

also involve this kind of cutting edge

rebellion against the the the herd

instincts yes it does yeah it's a

rebellion against the herd instinct

Sartre was very important

this movement of the rebel cam you wrote

the book the rebel and paul tillich was

my dear and very close friend for some

thirty years he earned on the others of

the existentialist understood the joy

and freedom come only from the facing of

life the confronting of the difficulties

satra when France was overrun by the

Nazis Sapta wrote a drama called the

flies this is a retelling of the ancient

Greek the story of Orestes and the sent

a little bit of it that I want to quote

is that Zeus tries to get arrestees not

to go back to his hometown and kill his

mother which he was ordered to do having

to revenge his father and the zoo says I

made you so you must obey me and Orestes

says you made me but you blundered you

made me free and then Zeus gets quite

angry and he has the stars and the

planets zooming around to show how

powerful he is and he says but do you

realize how much despair lies ahead of

you if you follow your course and

arrestee says human life begins on the

far side of despair and I happen to

believe that that human joy begins like

the alcoholics they cannot get over the

alcoholism except as they get into

despair and then the AA's can take them

and freedom from alcoholism that's why I

think despair as a constructive side as

well as anxiety having constructive

effect and you've mentioned earlier the

great artistic achievements of Mozart

and Beethoven and one has a sense where

we even have this term

years of joy that when one experiences

deep joy it's because it somehow

incorporates the wholeness of human life

and we see the joy bubbling up emerging

through the despair itself and that's

real joy yeah yeah that's a you have

understood it very well and yet there's

something in almost intimidating it's

it's as if and many of us is as we live

our lives and go through our routines

that were afraid to really drink deeply

of of the fullness of that yes as our oh

well if it were easy it wouldn't be

effective

it's not easy life is difficult and I

believe has many conflicts in it many

challenges but it seems to me that

without those life wouldn't be

interesting the interest the joy the

creativity that comes from the uses say

in Beethoven's symphonies a joy joyful

joyful we adore thee that's the end of

the ninth symphony and that joyful

joyful comes only after the agony that

is shown in the first part of it

symphony now I believe in life and I

believe in the joy of human existence

but these things cannot be experienced

except as we also face the despair I'll

also face the anxiety that every human

being has to face if he lives with any

creativity at all

Rollo may it's been a pleasure being

with you and sort of looking at this

very deep issue of agony and ecstasy I

must admit that when I was reading your

your book love and will in preparation

for this interview I felt after reading

the final chapter

almost waves of energy pulsing through

my body I almost learned almost what the

Yogi's would have described as Kundalini

I mean I was a very strange feeling of

ecstasy and agony it seemed as if your

willingness to look so directly at life

itself is almost a willingness to to

stare God in the face well that's

marvelous I'm very happy that you had

this experience

thank you so much for a little pleasure

to be here with me it's sort of just

another concluding note it it makes me

feel like I in appreciating your work I

have a sense of why tragedy was

considered the very highest part for me

in Shakespeare for examle yes the great

plays were the tragedies and in our day

to the day this Death of a Salesman you

know is one of the great plays of the

20th century Rollo may thank you very

much for being with me well I enjoyed it

myself and thank you very much for being

with us

you