Edward P. Jones talks about "The Known World" and his Washington, D.C., short stories

Summary

In this insightful interview, Ethel Burk Miller engages with renowned author Edward P. Jones, discussing his literary journey and the profound influence of his mother on his work. Jones, known for his dedication to storytelling that reflects the African American experience, shares his creative process, the importance of character development, and the challenges of writing historical fiction without extensive research. The conversation delves into the nuances of his writing style, his approach to teaching, and his views on the role of literature in society.

Takeaways

• 📚 Edward P. Jones is a celebrated author known for his books 'Lost in the City' and 'The Known World', both dedicated to the memory of his mother, Jeanette M. Jones.
• 👩‍🏫 His mother's illiteracy and hard work as a dishwasher and hotel maid greatly influenced Jones, motivating him to excel in school and strive to be the best citizen and human being.
• 🏆 The character Marie Wilson in 'Lost in the City' is inspired by Jones' mother and represents older individuals standing up against societal changes.
• 🎨 Jones uses his writing to explore 'what if' scenarios, imagining how his characters might act differently in various situations, influenced by his college studies on 19th-century novels.
• 🦅 The story 'The Girl Who Raised Pigeons' was inspired by a childhood friend named Bessie Ann, showcasing a courageous version of what she could have been in a better world.
• 🗣️ Jones incorporates phrases and dialogues from his childhood and his mother's voice into his writing, giving his stories a distinct cadence and authenticity.
• 📚 He admits to making up the voices of younger characters in his stories, as he hasn't been around younger people enough to know their speech patterns.
• 🏙️ Jones has a strong connection to Washington D.C., especially the neighborhoods of the past, and feels disconnected from the new city that has emerged.
• 🤔 He reflects on the elements that make a good short story, acknowledging that his understanding of storytelling has evolved and become less certain over time.
• 🏆 Despite his success, including a McArthur Genius Grant, Jones does not rest on his laurels but views each new story as a fresh challenge.
• 🌐 The concept of maps is a recurring theme in Jones' work, symbolizing the need for direction and a plan in both writing and life's journey.

Q & A

Who is the guest of the 'Writing Life' program in this transcript?

The guest is Edward P Jones, an author known for his books 'Lost in the City' and 'The Known World'.

What is the significance of Edward P Jones' mother in his life and work?

Edward P Jones' mother, Jeanette M Jones, had a profound influence on his life. Despite her inability to read or write, she motivated him to be the best student and citizen he could be. Her memory is honored in the dedications of his books.

How did Edward P Jones' mother's occupation as a dishwasher and hotel maid influence him?

Seeing his mother's hard work and fatigue from her daily job as a dishwasher and hotel maid inspired Edward P Jones to strive for excellence in his studies and later in life, aiming to make her life easier.

What is the connection between Edward P Jones' childhood friend Bessie Ann and the character in his story 'The Girl Who Raised Pigeons'?

Bessie Ann, a childhood friend who was bullied for her stuttering and thinness, inspired the character in 'The Girl Who Raised Pigeons'. Edward P Jones wanted to create a character who could stand up for herself, as Bessie Ann could have in a better world.

How does Edward P Jones approach character development, especially for older characters in his stories?

Edward P Jones often uses the voice and phrases he remembers from his mother, giving his older characters a certain cadence and portrait of speech. He also explores the idea of older characters physically confronting people, showing their anger at how the world has changed.

What does Edward P Jones think about the changes in Washington DC since his first book was published?

Edward P Jones feels that the new city is not really his city. His stories often reflect the Washington DC of the 1950s to the 1980s, as that's the time he came of age and knows best.

How does Edward P Jones describe his process of writing a short story?

Edward P Jones mentions that he used to have a vague idea of a beginning, middle, and end for a story, but as he continued writing, he became less certain about these elements. He now focuses on telling the character's story and hopes it turns out well.

What is Edward P Jones' view on the concept of freedom in the context of his novel 'The Known World'?

In 'The Known World', Edward P Jones explores the idea that freedom is not just about being free but also about the law acknowledging one's freedom. He discusses the fragility of freedom papers and the potential for them to be taken away, leading to re-enslavement.

How does Edward P Jones feel about receiving the McArthur Genius Grant?

Edward P Jones does not let the recognition affect his writing process. He continues to focus on doing the best he can and does not think about what people will say about his work.

What is Edward P Jones' approach to teaching writing?

Edward P Jones prefers to dive right into the work. He asks students to have a story ready for the first day of class and everyone reads it. He believes in focusing on individual work rather than assigning exercises that may not appeal to every writer.

How does Edward P Jones feel about the popularity of certain genres over his own work?

Edward P Jones does not express concern over his work being pushed aside by more popular genres. He believes that readers will find their way to his work and that it's important for them to explore different types of literature.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Dedication and Influence of a Mother

In this paragraph, author Edward P. Jones discusses the significant influence of his mother, Jeanette M. Jones, who despite being illiterate, motivated him to excel in school and strive to be the best version of himself. He shares how his mother's hard work as a dishwasher and hotel maid instilled in him a sense of determination and respect. Jones also touches on the theme of older characters standing up for themselves in his stories, inspired by his mother's memory and the idea of 'what if' scenarios that challenge the status quo.

05:02

🏙️ Reflections on Washington DC's Transformation

The speaker, presumably Edward P. Jones, contemplates the changes in Washington DC since his first book was published. He expresses a disconnect with the new city, feeling more attached to the DC of the past, particularly the 1950s to 1980s. Jones talks about the challenge of setting characters in a time when the physical landscape has drastically changed, and the emotional impact of this transformation on his storytelling.

10:03

🎨 The Art of Storytelling and Character Development

This paragraph delves into Jones's creative process, his views on the elements that make up a good short story, and his approach to character development. He admits to being less certain about the structure of a story as he gains more experience, moving away from traditional narrative arcs to a more organic, miniature-like storytelling approach. Jones also discusses the importance of dialogue and capturing the voice of his characters, including the younger generation, which he admits to having to 'make up' due to a lack of personal exposure.

15:03

🗺️ The Role of Maps and Metaphors in Literature

Jones explores the concept of maps as a metaphor for his writing process, discussing how they provide a sense of direction and help him avoid getting lost in the narrative. He also touches on the historical aspects of his work, emphasizing that while there might be some historical value, his stories are primarily a product of his imagination. The paragraph concludes with a discussion about the presence of animals in his work and their symbolic representation of the treatment of slaves.

20:04

👤 Personal Reflections on Writing and Identity

In this introspective paragraph, Jones discusses his writing process, his approach to creating diverse characters, and the personal elements that inevitably find their way into his work. He talks about the importance of having a plan for a story, the significance of the first line, and the organic unfolding of the narrative. Jones also addresses the influence of Alfred Hitchcock on his storytelling and the challenge of starting over with nothing, as depicted in one of his characters' journeys.

25:05

🏆 The Impact of Recognition and the Writing Journey

The final paragraph focuses on Jones's reflections on receiving the McArthur Genius Grant and how it has not affected his writing process. He emphasizes the importance of discipline and the individuality of each writer's journey. Jones also discusses his teaching approach, his thoughts on the commercialization of books, and the importance of privacy for a writer. The paragraph concludes with his views on what makes a good writer and the value of reading as a foundation for writing.

Keywords

💡Influence

Influence refers to the capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of someone or something. In the video, Edward P Jones discusses the profound influence his mother had on his life, inspiring him to be the best student and citizen he could be. This influence is also reflected in his writing, where he dedicates his books to her memory and incorporates elements of her life and the challenges she faced.

💡Dedication

Dedication is the act of committing oneself to a task or purpose. The script mentions that both of Jones's books are dedicated to the memory of his mother, Jeanette M Jones, showing his dedication to honoring her life and struggles. This act of dedication is a common theme in literature, often symbolizing respect and admiration for the subject.

💡Literary Influence

Literary influence denotes the impact that one writer or work has on another's writing style or thematic content. Jones talks about the influence of nineteenth-century novelist Henry James on his approach to storytelling, particularly the concept of 'what if' scenarios, which allows for creative exploration beyond the constraints of reality.

💡Character Development

Character development is the process in which a writer creates and evolves characters in a narrative. The video discusses how Jones creates characters who stand up for themselves, like Bessie in 'The Girl Who Raised Pigeons,' drawing from his own childhood experiences and imagining what could have been in a better world.

💡Memory

Memory, in the context of the video, refers to the recollection of past experiences and their significance in shaping one's present actions or creations. Jones's memories of his mother and childhood friends deeply influence his writing, allowing him to craft characters and narratives that are rooted in personal history.

💡Cadence

Cadence refers to the rhythmic flow of speech or writing. The script mentions how Jones incorporates the cadence of his mother's speech into his writing, giving his characters a distinct voice that reflects her influence and the cultural background of being raised in the South.

💡Historical Fiction

Historical fiction is a genre that weaves fictional narratives within historical settings or events. While discussing 'The Known World,' Jones clarifies that despite the novel's deep roots in the history of American slavery, it is a work of fiction, relying primarily on his imagination rather than extensive research.

💡Metaphor

A metaphor is a figure of speech that indirectly compares two unlike things. In the video, Jones possibly uses the concept of maps as a metaphor for storytelling, suggesting that just as maps can be imperfect representations of reality, stories can offer nuanced and personal perspectives on historical events.

💡Imagination

Imagination is the faculty or action of forming new ideas or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses. Jones emphasizes the role of imagination in his writing process, allowing him to create rich narratives that, while inspired by history, are not constrained by it.

💡Cultural Heritage

Cultural heritage refers to the traditions, languages, knowledge, and artifacts inherited from past generations. The script indicates that Jones's writing is influenced by his cultural heritage, particularly the experiences of African Americans and the legacy of the South.

💡Storytelling

Storytelling is the art of narrating stories. Jones discusses his approach to storytelling, emphasizing the importance of having a clear beginning and end, and the challenges of weaving a narrative that feels both novel and engaging.

Highlights

Edward P Jones discusses the influence of his mother, who couldn't read or write, on his life and writing.

Jones' dedication to being the best student and citizen as a tribute to his mother's hard work.

The character Marie Wilson in 'Lost in the City' is inspired by Jones' mother and her resilience.

Jones uses the 'what if' approach to develop characters and plot, inspired by Henry James.

The story 'The Girl Who Raised Pigeons' is based on a childhood friend and explores courage and standing up against adversity.

Jones' use of phrases from his childhood to create authentic dialogue in his stories.

The challenge of capturing the voices of younger characters without direct exposure to their speech patterns.

Jones' return to Washington DC and the changes in the city influencing his perspective on writing about the past.

The difficulty of placing characters in a historical context when the physical environment has changed significantly.

Jones' evolving understanding of what makes a good short story and the unpredictability of the writing process.

The comparison of writing a story to a journey with a clear destination, even if the path takes unexpected turns.

Jones' approach to writing 'The Known World' without extensive research, relying on imagination and prior knowledge.

The misconception by some reviewers that 'The Known World' was heavily researched, which Jones clarifies was not the case.

The theme of maps and their inaccuracies as a metaphor for the writing process and life's journey in Jones' work.

The significance of animals in 'The Known World' and their symbolic representation of the treatment of slaves.

Jones' reflection on the concept of freedom and the fragility of one's status in society, as depicted in 'The Known World'.

The importance of privacy and personal discipline in maintaining a writing routine and producing quality work.

Jones' teaching approach in writing classes, focusing on immediate workshopping of student stories rather than prescribed exercises.

Concerns about the visibility of quality literature in bookstores and the impact on readers' choices.

Transcripts

this program is made possible in part by

the National Endowment for the Arts

welcome to the writing life my name is

Ethel Burk Miller and my guest is Edward

P Jones Edward P Jones is the author of

two books lost in the city and the known

world welcome thank you thank you you

know both of your books and are

dedicated to the memory of your mother

Jeanette M Jones let's talk about her

first what influence does she have on

your life and how did you try to keep

your memory her memory alive in your

pull in your books well the mother

couldn't read or write and I think that

had been as I say in the dedication in

the second book

had it been a better war I think she

would gone on and she far more than she

did and just produce three children when

I was in school I always endeavored to

be the best student that could because I

was aware that she went out every day

she was a dishwasher she was a hotel

maid and she never spoke about how hard

the work was but you could just see it

in how tired she wasn't she came home in

the evenings so I was endeavored to be

the best student I could possibly be

just to make her life easier and now

that I'm growing up I'm out there on my

own I try to be the best citizen and

human being that I can be my mother died

in 75 but it doesn't matter you know

when I see a character like Marie Wilson

you know who's in the last story of lost

in the city I sort of chuckle because I

I saw my mother and I guess your mother

too but one of the things in there is

that she actually physically confronts

people

and I want you to talk about that but to

see that here you have older people

really striking back being angry with

how the world has changed yeah this

destroys an ounce of the city there's

only one the one about the little girl

on the first day of school that it's

taken from my own life but I think that

I'm sort of influenced by something when

I was in college and there was a

nineteenth-century novel course the

introduction to Henry James novel where

the person who wrote the foreword I

think was talking about James's thing of

always asking what if and so rather than

having this old woman go into the Social

Security office and being abused every

time she goes in there you know I simply

asked myself what if of course you can't

have her you know do anything outrageous

like pulling out an ak-47 but she stands

up in a little small way and smacks this

woman the same thing happened with the

first story the girl raised pigeons when

I was a child one of one of my childhood

friends was a girl named Bessie Ann and

she was stuttering she was thin and

everyone in the neighborhood picked on

her when I got around to writing the

story the girl I raised pigeons um I had

a very courageous little girl nine ten

eleven years old and I decided to name

her Bessie n because I wanted to create

this character who would have been what

this Ian could have been if it had been

a better world someone who could have

stood up herself all along the way you

know what I find in there Marie

character Marie Wilson

she says you weren't ways that way after

she you know you know and that sound

like an expression that you hear old

people sing at a time it is yeah that's

what I when I certainly agree with that

you know whenever I sort of deviated a

bit from the way my mother was raising

me she would see you weren't raised that

way and I always find a certain comfort

in using phrases that I knew when I was

a child they're they're no longer used

apparently I guess how do you lead that

into your dialogue I think the voice

that always use

for the most part is the voice that I

heard of my mother when I was growing up

you know every goodbye and going

every shut-eye he'd sleep you know you

wasn't raised that way things like that

there's a certain cadence certain

portrait to the way she she spoke and

she got that the course of being having

been born and raised in the south and

you also have younger characters though

in some of your story how do you go

about and capture this be I think I just

make it up because I'm not always privy

to what they're saying I have a niece

and two nephews but I haven't been

around them enough to know the way they

speak so I think it's just a matter of

sort of making it up I'm winging it

along the way

now you've recently moved back into DC

and I was wondering a lot has happened

since your first book had come out

Washington DC has changed okay when you

walk around the city and you look at

neighborhoods that you've written about

do you feel now that maybe you should go

back and maybe write more about the

memories so that you could preserves a

certain city that's being lost or do you

embrace the new city do you see the

stories out there no the new city isn't

really my city and when I think of

stories and I'm working on another

collection of stories of Washington DC

and when so many of those stories came

to me in the last ten years it was the

1950s it was the 1960s and perhaps a bit

of the 1970s and the 80s and that's what

I know and I think it's probably because

I came of age you know in the 60s and

all of that my problem my concern always

has been in that trying to place a

character in 1955 in a certain building

on a certain Street that building is no

longer there and I may get the address

wrong and whenever I think of that

there's a line from the movie Avalon it

comes back to me and it says if I had

knew it was all going to be gone I would

have remembered better mm-hmm you know

when I look at your short stories I

wonder in terms of what elements you

know make up a good short story I know

you've made reference to your teachers

like James Allen McPherson and Taylor I

also saw you had a blur for Hank Lewis

who has a new book out yeah

what do you see when in short stories

you know in terms of the certain basic

elements that you feel makes a good

story you know the more I do them the

more the less confident I am about what

goes into them back when I was beginning

I had this vague idea it's beginning a

middle and an end and there's a sort of

climactic moment there towards the end

then I'm no longer certain I mean there

was a story that that I did all on take

his children and I tried to fit as much

into this short story as I could say

that when the reader was done he or she

would feel as if he had never read a

novel well in sort of composing that

story everything that I knew about what

goes into story had to go out because I

was doing something different I had this

thing about miniatures I know you

collect stamps and I collect American

stamps and I also collect these little

nice Japanese figures called nets keys

and in that story I knew I had a certain

a number of pages and I knew I couldn't

conform to the old idea what what goes

into a story I just had to tell this

person's story and hope that at the end

of it I had done the best job that I

could so I no longer know what goes into

a story I just hope it's okay let's

let's talk about this except when we

first sat down was 1992 the letters had

like I call you the tagging words of

American literature now as all of you

would but do you feel now that you're a

better writer or you still feel that

there's a lot of improvement at you yeah

I mean you know there must be you know a

million things I suppose you're supposed

to know about writing and you know

you've you written since you're 21 and

you live to be a hundred you still only

reach maybe a thousand but my sense is

always that whether it's a story or a

chapter in a novel once you finish the

story and it's successful the next day

you get up and you start the second

story you're at the bottom of the

mountain again you know no matter what

you think you knew with the first story

you know it's all something brand-new

again you're dealing with new people you

dealing with new situations a new plot

new dialogue and everything and you're

back at the bottom of the mountain again

I mean Department a lot of people of

course is that they sort of rest on

their laurels well I did that one

successfully you know just sort

shoot this one out there no I never feel

as if I can sort of rest on anything

since that guy recently interviews that

I conducted with you it seems like a lot

of things are in your mind if you're

thinking you really rested with the

imagination then it moves from your

imagination to storytelling yeah then I

feel it has to move for storytelling to

actually being on the paint is that a

difficult process yeah and again it's

because I mean I don't I don't like

taking anything for my own life and

certainly enough from the lives of

people that I know and so you're sort of

dealing with you know this block of clay

nothing and I like to think it all

through all the way from the beginning

Fitz story from the beginning to the

very end I don't like sitting down and

asking myself what should come next

there days when you're not inspired

enough even though you know what two

connects and you just can't work but you

always know what the destination is

going to be if take the known world

which is the book that's really opened a

lot of doors for you

how should a person teach - say for

example I was teaching a history class

okay would it be good for me to take the

known world and bring it in in place

alongside say scholarly texts and what

American slavery no because it's it's

all fiction and I started out as I've

said often you know thinking that I

would read all those books on slavery

and I I never got around to reading only

in the end I just relied on my

imagination and all that I'd learned

about that world before I had even

thought about writing the novel so there

might be something of historical value

in it but I don't know what it is there

are one or two facts that I that I glean

before before I started writing the book

but other than that everything is out of

my imagination so I'm not sure I really

prefer his professor whatever use it now

I want to make a connection here and if

I'm wrong I looked at the Molino lost in

the city and look at the known world and

one thing I see as a connection is this

whole concept of maps even for example

when you talk about how you work that

putting a story together you sometimes

I'll say outline but you're mapping out

and looking at that we know that maps

are not accurate you know I remember

those Mercator projection math it was

always small but you know when you look

at maps which seem to be keying in in

both your books do you feel that sort

like a metaphor for what you're doing I

said I've ever thought about math with

loss in the city but certainly it's sort

of central in the known world but yeah I

yeah it's again it's because I don't

want to get lost when I'm when I'm

working and when I teach and I often

tell people that my technique is you

starting out and I don't drive but this

is if I had a car and I'm starting out

from Washington and going to Baltimore

you know always always because you you'd

settle in your mind that your

destination is going to be Baltimore so

you get on the road with the

baltimore-washington Parkway and maybe

there's a sign of a town you've never

heard of before and you decide to take a

detour and it's 2:00 in the afternoon

and you are still have time to get to

Baltimore and so you take the detour

it's two hours three hours or whatever

it is I mean that's fine when you're

when you're writing the story because

that's that's happened to me a lot of

the times I knew what the destination

but sometimes little things happen that

I never anticipated but ultimately you

know you're gonna get back on the

baltimore-washington Parkway and by

evening your domain in Baltimore yeah

yeah I really I know you've been asked a

lot of questions about the known world

but I want to focus in and ask you you

know for things we perhaps people

haven't talked to you about which I

think jumped out and I discussed some of

this on NPR when we didn't discuss your

book with Roger Wilkins and Lisa page

with Diane Rehm it's about the gnome

world there are a number of references

to horses and mules could you elaborate

on there yeah I there are a lot of

things that just came out of my

subconscious I think I was aware that

these people in that time probably lived

in close proximity with animals and that

the people who were slave owners for the

most part thought of their slaves

there's no more than animals and we get

a lot of people in there

like where Marvin's who probably treats

his horse far better than it treats his

slaves I'm not really sure I think it

might take me five or ten more years and

think of the person I that I am to say

yes this is why I said that this is why

I said that because they keep real yeah

the dogs I know and there's several

times the horses are hidden a shot in

the head right I wasn't always aware

that when the first time that happens

with a horse it happened then and then

later on when it happens I wasn't really

aware that they didn't happen before and

then when it maybe happens a third time

I wasn't aware of that but twice before

that it was always at that particular

point that I needed to say that about a

horse a dog or mule I think I I was

there was a friend of mine once told me

about that in my stories that me was

sort of a majestic character and I

probably got that for my mother because

her thing was always talking about me

was when she was growing up you know the

character Alex knight in 1861 in your

book you have created a map the entire

manchester county leaving out the people

mm-hm

and she says in the book it's what God

sees when he looks down on Manchester

the letter writers and I said if the

people my question is if the people in

that President can win conclude that God

might be missing from their lives - I

think so I tend not to put mice insert

myself in into into what I write but of

course it's inevitable that's something

that you are seeps in and I always say

that while I'm not a religious person

I'm doomed to write about people or raw

in my sense throughout the novel was

that there were a lot of people who

believed passionately in God but God was

always absent in the first map the map

of the entire county of course there are

no people because that's the way I sort

of see things in the in the second map

which is a smaller one of this

particular plantation or Dallas and I

came from there are people and their

eyes are raised up to the heavens and

supposedly God that's what God sees when

he looks down upon him now you said you

know put yourself into these characters

but if I had to select the care that I

think that I detect you here

Elias and I think that the cool would be

that he's whittling that you talked

about carving across that so I looked at

that character look close I said well

maybe this is where every junk shows up

and then that character says Stephane

says do you write about him

they'll I said never believed in the

same God and so he had never questioned

the world what color people could be the

owners of slaves and if at that moment

in the dark he had sprouted wings you

would not have questioned that either

yeah I think that's probably a little

bit me he's putting it yeah yeah the

Carboni I think it's because in writing

you have these pages and pages and pages

you know in stories and in a novel and

you know you really if you have

something on page seven and you want to

consult page 207 it's a long trick but

if you have a carving you know a piece

of wood and you're doing a horse you can

see almost immediately whether one leg

is a little shorter than it should be or

if the neck is a little longer than it

should be you know if the body really

doesn't correspond to the horse's bodies

that you've known who does that and some

of his work it's a science fiction

writer Samuel Delaney hmm Orton has a

character that might have some sort of

you know problem physically you know you

know and that's what like a metaphor for

how you moved around the world yeah I

mean there's a character in here tonight

I figured my friend Lisa page when we

discussed this character I said aloud I

said this is good humoured the character

Stanford I'm just looking for young

stuff the only way he could survive

slavery listen to me when I when I see

Stanley this looking out for the young

thing you know that seemed to be the

everyday guy I know I can do with

slavery as long as I got a warm body to

me is that was that deliberately placed

in the hood yeah it was and and I and I

and originally

the Stanford is like he comes to what he

thinks is the end of his life you know

because the young women are no longer

attracted to him and he decides that

he's going to commit suicide and the all

the parts in there about the thunder and

lightning and his redemption was not

originally in there until after my

editor credit but yeah I wanted a

Stanford Canada when I put all this

stuff about the thunder and lightning in

his Redemption I realized after my the

woman who became my editor

read the book that I was interested in

how black people managed to get to the

other side get to freedom and I already

had lies and his wife Celeste was

crippled and their family they have each

other

and that I felt was probably how they

managed to survive well of course there

were people like Stanford didn't have a

family and so I went back over and tried

to find a way of discovering how people

like that would get to the other side

and the thought came to me that they

would get to the other side by

concerning themselves with the lives of

other people other than themselves which

is Stanford's problem up to that day

another thing that one would look at in

terms of the known world is the whole

approach that you take to the whole

concept of law to to law and you have

for example Travis talks with us as he

says you ain't free less mean the law

say you free us yes you ain't got

nothing to do with it yeah you know and

then also you have like universal

freedom papers just being sued yeah and

I think it's it's it was that thought

came to me maybe two or three years

after the novel was there and I said it

just occurred to me I mean what if

you're a free man and you are the papers

that say you're a free man you know the

only thing that's standing between you

and slavery is people's it piece of

paper you know and if someone takes that

piece of paper and takes you to another

County another state where no one knows

you and his white man that does that his

word is law but I think that someone

could take your papers from you and

we've seen that depict in movies and

then I think the chewing of the paper

gives it to another level yeah because

you know your story told you always

wanted to tell something a little

different than everyone else has ever

done it and I just came to me well this

man should do this he should chew it up

and eat it

let's go back to some of your first

reviews when a known world comes out you

know my take on on some of the first

ones was that people became fascinated

with just the theme and the idea behind

your book blacks only only other black

people did you feel that you know you

strawberry some reviews we're just

dealing with

the topic and that deal with the

structure of the play no because I I

think a lot of them came later on so

they weren't lot that New York afforded

to me that weren't based in Washington

area so no I didn't I suppose I didn't

get that you know maybe there a lot that

I haven't read is there you know the

party every single day someone mention

something that I'm not I'm not read so

there was the one that haven't got to me

was the sky alland shoes at George Mason

he wrote in the San Francisco paper that

I had done tons of research and had

plowed it all into the book well they've

had he read the you know the press

release or whatever it was he would have

known that I did know research and I

think that was what got to me and that

happened very early on and I think it

was another one of the trade magazines

that guys had said every research he was

very positive but he had mentioned

research and I think that got to be more

than anything else because when the

reviews that I did read read and they

mentioned what it's about black slave

owners I did see that they took note of

that but the book is far more than that

now I took what I had a problem I said

this on radio I loved your work so much

right she wasn't sitting which i think

is a classic that when I got to the

known world I couldn't get past the

first couple of pages and I felt I felt

I felt that okay the MOOC was moving

stuff but then when I had to read his

for like a program I realize I said wow

this is phenomenal because what happens

is it off to a while you just emerged in

a wall okay and and I found that I

ignore whether there was going to be a

plot or where things were going but I

felt that what happened I just got

pulled in further and further and I was

wondering whether when you were writing

did you outline this oh you're just like

weaving this and keeps unfolding no it

was I had a plan you know it was from

the beginning to the end I knew what the

first line was going to be and I knew

everything in between a lot of it was in

a very general way I mean when it lies

you know goes to Celeste and tells her

he likes her then you know I had a

general idea of what that scene would be

it was only one line

that I knew that I written out in my

head exactly and over the years because

I didn't write anything now and I would

keep repeating that line but yeah

everything was it was there from the

very beginning and I think now if if I

had if I if I'd heard the things of the

people are saying now if I when I was

composing the book of my head you know

that well they're a lot of characters

and it's a little difficult here and

there maybe I would have taken a

different path so I'm very glad now that

I didn't you know that I have a sort of

a lone loner and I just went on my own

way listen to you critics you do you do

you read like some of the reviews I know

for example some writers just totally

ignore the reviews no I read the reviews

I don't read the articles about myself

yeah and it's but I don't you know again

it goes and I read the reviews and

everything but you know when it comes

around to writing the stories that I'm

working on now I don't recall it any

what they will say because again I'm

down at the bottom of the mountain you

know I know you have a new collection of

stories coming out and I know some of

them have appeared in The New Yorker and

I will assume that a rich man will five

being a new pole yes that book is that

that that starts interesting in terms of

Horace is a young man who all the man

who life is totally destroyed by by

young people all it seems that when I

read that story I felt here's the Alfred

Hitchcock influence and every feature is

that I know you know Hitchcock I mean

you know this whole life just up to

scare the heart is just totally

destroyed he winds up in jail you know

it seems that more than anything else

yeah and I like a child but I never once

I don't think thought about him the

stories came up when I finished lost in

the city here might my thinking was that

well you know I'll never be is that any

of those people again and then in 95-96

one character from the title story loss

of the city came to me and I began

building a story around her and then

over the next months other characters

from that collection came to me and I

began building around stories around

them as well let me ask you this

question which one of your characters

are actually higher says

and it's near the end of the of the

story of the rich man how does a man

start over with nothing and how does a

man start from scratch well I think he

had there had some supposed to be a with

the problem of horse is that the one

substance of the thing in his life he is

rather discarded his wife and she

disappears in the middle of the story

but I think there is some hope for him

at the end with this young woman Elaine

who was a minor character from the

previous story in loss of the city you

you you received the McArthur so your

genius I knew you were genes before he

never wants me to do what happens now

here you are in the middle of finishing

a book do you find that pressure in

terms of how it might be Percy what you

just totally wipe that out no you know I

can't think about what people will say

you know I just do the best that I can

I'm glad that the New Yorkers you know

published before the stories already and

that that tells me that maybe I'm on the

right path and I have about two or three

more to finish and then that'll be it

but I and then I can't and I think given

all that they said about the known world

I think it will probably be months and

months before I read interviews about

the new collection of stories you talk

about this path if other right is one of

the file sort of a path that ever Pete

John says has taken what books do you

feel they they should read I know you

have your favorite writers but are there

any book that might deal with the

teaching of right and you would suggest

a young person you know pick up no I

guess I you know it's I mean how many

how many books on writing the Ralph

Ellison read how many did you yeah you

know and then that was that was summer a

few weeks ago and someone said mentioned

Saul Bellow the Cody had is that a

writer is a reader move to emulation and

I think that's that's subtle it's you

know you're just reading is a foundation

of it all sure but let me put you in a

spy you have taught at a number of

institutions I never use the text what

how do you instruct a class of people

are the exercises that you had Joseph to

have developed that you feel will be

helpful I did in the very beginning when

I was in graduate school knows because I

didn't know what I was doing now I just

we just dive right into the work before

the class even starts

I tell you know whomever in contact all

the students that I want to have a story

on the very first day and that I want

everyone to read the story and we just

sit right into the work you know there'd

cuz everyone sort of you know is a

different sort of writer you know and I

can't really assign anything I feel that

will appeal to this writer not equal to

the other so we just dive right into the

work right away you know we look at so

many people want to be right I look at

you I look at Hank Lewis I look

oppressed whatever I see individuals

were producing you know really wonderful

work but then when I go into the

bookstores

I see the books pushed aside by the more

popular you know black romance book you

know how do you feel about that interns

at this particular time do you feel your

books are reaching the people that you

would like to to read well I don't have

a sense of who you know the readers are

really a great sense of it but I mean in

and sad for me because I know when I

started out reading I was reading just

about everything and it's over a course

of years as you become more educated and

what is good what is bad but my sense

now is that maybe people will stick with

this romance crap and stay with that

forever and that branch out so it is sat

in a certain way yes do you feel that

there are things that writers should

have that

that you feel it is very important one

thing I would wonder about privacy your

very private person do you feel that's

very important so that you just maintain

a discipline of being a good writer

no is again you know you you know you

I'm not a Starbucks person but you know

you can walk by there and see some guy

on this

you know laptop in Starbucks and there's

all this clutter around the writer and

so we're all different and whatever

whatever allows you at the end of the

day to say yes I have a page two pages

that I'm comfortable with that I'm happy

with and you get up the next day and you

read over those previous pages and say

yes this is okay and that's that's the

way to go

this isn't star book but this is the

writing life and I'm happy that you've

been I guess thanks for inviting me