Bernard Tschumi Interview

Summary

In this interview at the 2014 Venice Biennale, architect Bernard Tschumi discusses his journey into architecture, which began with a lack of interest due to his father's profession but was ignited by a transformative experience in Chicago. Tschumi details his architectural education, his shift towards urban design, and his innovative approach to 'notation' in architecture, which involves choreographing movement within space. He critiques the current state of urbanization, lamenting the lack of creativity and experimentation in city design. Tschumi also shares his thoughts on the role of architects in shaping the cities of tomorrow, emphasizing the importance of questioning and challenging the status quo.

Takeaways

• 🏛️ Bernard Tschumi's initial disinterest in architecture stemmed from his father's profession, but his experience in the US, particularly Chicago, sparked his passion for the field.
• 🌆 Tschumi was deeply influenced by the urban landscape of Chicago in the early 1960s, appreciating its density and the way light was integrated into the city's design.
• 🏫 His architectural education at the ETH in Zurich was traditional, but he was inspired by urban history professor Paul Hofer to think more critically about cities.
• 🤝 Tschumi's desire to work with Cedric Price was thwarted by his professors, who did not consider Price's work as architecture, which only increased Tschumi's interest in Price's ideas.
• 🏙️ Tschumi's shift towards questioning architecture's relationship with power, money, and societal norms led him to England, where he began teaching and exploring the margins of architecture.
• 🎨 In New York, Tschumi rekindled his interest in drawing, focusing on experimental designs that combined elements of choreography and movement within the city, culminating in 'The Manhattan Transcripts'.
• 🏗️ It took Tschumi 12 years post-graduation to apply his theoretical ideas to a real project, beginning with the Parc de la Villette competition, which he won unexpectedly.
• 📈 Tschumi's approach to architecture involves creating a 'game board' with rules and pieces, allowing users to interact and develop the space dynamically, rather than a static design.
• 🌐 Tschumi criticizes contemporary architects for failing to innovate in urban design, particularly in rapidly urbanizing regions like the Middle East and China.
• 👥 He believes architects should engage more with the ethical and moral challenges of their profession, and that a period of transition and critique may be necessary to stimulate new thinking.
• 👨‍🏫 As a teacher, Tschumi finds energy and invention in young architecture students, who are preparing the future of architecture and city planning, with a renewed interest in both small-scale fabrication and large-scale urban issues.

Q & A

What initially sparked Bernard Tschumi's interest in architecture?

Bernard Tschumi's interest in architecture was initially sparked by his visit to Chicago at the age of 17. Coming from a small Swiss town, the city's architecture and urban environment had a profound impact on him, leading him to decide to become an architect.

How did Bernard Tschumi's architectural education at ETH Zurich differ from his expectations?

Bernard Tschumi found that ETH Zurich, while being one of the best traditional schools, was not particularly interested in cities. He had a good urban history professor, Paul Hofer, but the context was very much Swiss architecture, which was not what he was looking for at the time.

What was the significance of Cedric Price in Bernard Tschumi's architectural journey?

Cedric Price played a significant role in Bernard Tschumi's journey as an architect. Tschumi was intrigued by Price's work and wanted to work for him. Despite his professors' disapproval, Tschumi found Price's ideas compelling, which led to a long story and a shift in Tschumi's architectural perspective.

What was the 'Manhattan Transcripts' project about and how did it influence Tschumi's work?

The 'Manhattan Transcripts' was a project where Bernard Tschumi experimented with drawing and developing a mode of expression he called 'notation'. It was about showing not only plans, sections, and elevations, but also the movements of bodies in space. This project was exhibited in art galleries and significantly influenced Tschumi's later work.

How did Bernard Tschumi approach the Parc de la Villette competition?

Bernard Tschumi approached the Parc de la Villette competition with an unconventional proposition about the city and architectural thinking. He was not expecting to win but was driven by a desire to apply his ideas into a real project. His approach was characterized by a sense of innocence and ignorance that helped him overcome various obstacles.

What was Bernard Tschumi's experience like working with Cedric Price on the La Villette project?

Bernard Tschumi had asked Cedric Price to design a pavilion for the La Villette project. Price worked on a substantial greenhouse design, but it was never realized due to budget constraints and the lack of private funding. However, Tschumi later paid homage to Price's design in the New Paris Zoo's greenhouse.

How does Bernard Tschumi view the role of architects in the design of contemporary cities?

Bernard Tschumi believes that architects have largely failed in their mission to design cities for today or tomorrow. He criticizes the lack of experimentation and the homogeneity of cities being built, especially in countries like China, and calls for a return to critical thinking and theory in architectural practice.

What is Bernard Tschumi's perspective on the importance of teaching and its impact on the future of architecture?

Bernard Tschumi sees teaching as a crucial part of shaping the future of architecture. He believes that schools are where the 'brew' of what architecture will become is prepared, and that engaging with young, inventive minds is essential for developing the architecture and cities of the next generation.

What advice would Bernard Tschumi give to young architects starting their practice?

Bernard Tschumi advises young architects to never take anything for granted, to always question, and to start with a question rather than accepting received ideas. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining a critical and questioning approach in their work.

How does Bernard Tschumi describe his approach to master planning and urban design?

Bernard Tschumi views master planning and urban design as a game, where the architect establishes the game board, a few pieces, and some rules, and then allows users to play and develop the city as a dynamic process, rather than a static, frozen image.

What is Bernard Tschumi's view on the current state of architectural thinking in relation to the digital world?

Bernard Tschumi believes that architects are still finding their way in the digital world and that there is a need for a new way of working that is not just an echo of analog methods. He suggests that the interaction between software, hardware, and invisible media, including social media, with architectural 'hard stuff' is an area that will inevitably develop.

Outlines

00:00

🏛️ Architectural Inspiration and Education

Bernard Tschumi shares his journey into architecture, which was initially sparked by a desire to differentiate himself from his father, a renowned architect. His interest in architecture was reignited during a transformative visit to Chicago at the age of 17, where the city's urban landscape deeply influenced him. Tschumi's architectural education at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH Zurich) was traditional, but he found himself drawn to urban history under Professor Paul Hofer. His interest in cities led him to work with Cedric Price, a radical architect whose ideas were not widely accepted in his academic environment. Tschumi's early career was marked by a critical perspective on architecture's relationship with power and money, and a move to England where he began teaching and questioning the nature of architecture itself.

05:03

🏙️ The Evolution of Architectural Design and Notation

Tschumi discusses his transition from teaching to designing buildings, highlighting his critical approach to architecture and its relationship with power and money. He moved to England to explore the essence of architecture, leading to his involvement with the Architectural Association (AA) and exposure to various art and literary scenes. His work, 'The Manhattan Transcripts,' showcased a new mode of architectural expression that included the movement of bodies in space. Twelve years after graduation, Tschumi applied his experimental ideas to real projects, beginning with the Paris La Villette competition, which he won unexpectedly. His approach to architecture involved questioning and challenging traditional norms, leading to innovative designs that considered the city as a whole.

10:04

🌐 The Role of Notation in Architectural Design

Bernard Tschumi elaborates on his concept of 'notation' in architecture, which involves a choreographic approach to design, considering the movement of people within spaces. His early work was literal, with arrows and drawings representing movement, but over time, this notation became internalized, allowing him to conceptualize movement within his architectural plans. Tschumi sees urban projects as dynamic games, where architects set the rules and pieces, but the city's users actively engage and develop the space. This perspective emphasizes the importance of interaction and adaptability in urban design, rather than a static, fixed outcome.

15:07

🌏 Critique of Contemporary Urbanization and Architectural Practice

Tschumi expresses concern over the current state of urbanization, criticizing architects for failing to design cities that meet the needs of today or the future. He points out the lack of experimentation and the homogeneity of cities, particularly in regions like the Middle East and China. Tschumi also laments the timidity in the design of historical Western cities, suggesting that there is a need for a return to critical thinking and theoretical exploration. He hopes for a period of transition that will lead to a resurgence of innovative city design.

20:08

🤝 Internationalism in Architecture and the Role of UIA

The conversation turns to the international aspect of architecture, with Tschumi reflecting on his father's involvement in the founding of the International Union of Architects (UIA). The UIA was established to foster dialogue among architects beyond nationalistic and political differences, in the wake of the devastation of two world wars. However, Tschumi questions whether the current globalized state of architecture still encourages meaningful dialogue and whether architects are focusing more on individual interests rather than the common good.

25:09

🏢 Public and Institutional Projects in Architectural Practice

Tschumi discusses his architectural practice, noting that most of his significant projects have been for public or institutional clients, often resulting from competitions. He attributes this to his history with large public projects like the Paris La Villette and his success in winning public competitions. While private clients do approach him, the majority of his work comes from public entities. Tschumi also highlights his role as a teacher, emphasizing the importance of architecture schools in shaping the future of the field.

🏫 Architectural Education and the Future of Cities

As a teacher, Tschumi finds architecture students to be a source of inspiration and innovation. He sees schools as the crucible where the future of architecture is being prepared. Tschumi observes that students are interested in both the very small scale of fabrication and the very large scale of city planning. He notes a resurgence of interest in cities and urban planning among students, likely due to their global experiences and the pressing need for creative solutions in city design.

🔗 The Impact of Digital Technology on Architectural Design

Tschumi considers the impact of digital technology on architecture, suggesting that architects are still adapting to a digital world. He recalls a project called 'Do-It-Yourself City,' which was influenced by ideas of mass communication and the potential for integrating media into urban environments. Tschumi believes that architects will eventually integrate digital tools and social media with physical architecture, although this integration is still in its early stages.

📚 Advice for Young Architects

In offering advice to young architects, Tschumi emphasizes the importance of questioning and not taking anything for granted. He encourages young professionals to start with questions and to challenge conventional wisdom. Tschumi's advice reflects his own approach to architecture, which has been marked by a critical and experimental mindset.

Keywords

💡Architecture

Architecture is both the process and the product of planning, designing, and constructing buildings and other physical structures. In the video, Bernard's interest in architecture was sparked by his experiences in different cities, particularly Chicago, which he found to be a transformative experience. The theme of the video revolves around Bernard's architectural journey and his evolving perspective on city design and urban planning.

💡Cultural Context

Cultural context refers to the environment in which a person is raised or lives, which influences their values, beliefs, and interests. Bernard mentions that spending a month in the US at age 17 in a different cultural context led to his interest in architecture. This concept is central to understanding how exposure to new environments can shape one's career choices and perspectives.

💡Urban History

Urban history is the study of how cities and towns develop over time, including their physical structures, social dynamics, and economic systems. Bernard had a good Urban history Professor, Paul Hofer, during his education at the ETH in Zurich, which likely influenced his interest in cities beyond just architecture.

💡Architectural Education

Architectural education refers to the academic and practical training that architects receive to prepare for their profession. Bernard discusses his architectural education, which was more traditional and focused on Swiss architecture, but he eventually looked elsewhere for inspiration, indicating a shift in his approach to architectural design.

💡Cedric Price

Cedric Price was a British architect known for his innovative and unconventional designs. Bernard expresses a desire to work for Price and is intrigued by his ideas, which were considered outside the traditional architectural norms. Price's influence is significant in Bernard's exploration of architecture's relationship with power, money, and societal norms.

💡Critical Generation

The term 'critical generation' refers to a group of people who are skeptical and questioning of established norms and practices. Bernard describes himself as part of a critical generation in architecture, wary of the relationship between architecture and power, and interested in challenging received ideas.

💡Notation

In the context of the video, notation refers to a system of symbols or graphical representations used to describe and analyze movement and space. Bernard talks about developing a mode of expression he called 'notation' to show not only traditional architectural elements but also the movements of bodies in space, which led to his 'Manhattan Transcripts' project.

💡Master Planning

Master planning is the comprehensive design of a large area, often a city or a significant part of it, with consideration for infrastructure, land use, and future development. Bernard discusses the application of his ideas on notation and movement to master planning, emphasizing the dynamic and interactive nature of cities.

💡Contemporary City

The contemporary city refers to urban areas as they exist in the present day, with all their complexities and challenges. Bernard expresses concern about the current state of urbanization and the lack of creative and experimental approaches in city design, particularly in emerging cities in Asia and the Far East.

💡International Union of Architects (UIA)

The UIA is an international organization that brings together architects from around the world to promote dialogue and address common concerns. Bernard's father was a founder of the UIA, and the organization's internationalist outlook is contrasted with the current state of architecture, which Bernard feels has become more individualistic and less concerned with the common good.

💡Public and Institutional Clients

Public and institutional clients refer to government bodies or organizations that commission architectural projects for public use or services. Bernard mentions that most of his significant projects come from public competitions or institutional clients, indicating a preference for work that has a broader social impact.

💡Teaching

Teaching, in the context of the video, refers to Bernard's role as an educator, particularly at Columbia University. He discusses the importance of engaging with young architects and the potential they have to shape the future of architecture and city design.

💡Digital Environment

A digital environment refers to the virtual spaces and tools created by digital technology, which are increasingly influencing how architects work and think. Bernard reflects on the need for architects to adapt to the digital world and find new ways of representing and designing spaces that account for the collapse of traditional concepts of space and time.

Highlights

Bernard Tschumi discusses his initial disinterest in architecture due to his father's profession.

Tschumi's interest in architecture was sparked during a visit to Chicago at age 17.

Chicago's urban environment in the 1960s greatly influenced Tschumi's architectural perspective.

Tschumi's architectural education at ETH Zurich was traditional but included urban history.

Meeting Cedric Price was a pivotal moment for Tschumi's architectural interests.

Tschumi's time in Paris at Candilis-Josic-Woods influenced his critical view of architecture.

Tschumi's move to England was driven by a desire to question the nature of architecture.

Tschumi's early work focused on developing a mode of expression he called 'notation'.

The Manhattan Transcripts project combined Tschumi's interest in art, literature, and the city.

Tschumi's first competition win with the Parc de la Villette was unexpected and transformative.

Tschumi's approach to architecture involves setting up 'rules' for users to engage with spaces.

Tschumi criticizes contemporary architects for failing to innovate in urban design.

Tschumi expresses concern over the homogenization of cities, particularly in Asia.

Tschumi reflects on the internationalist spirit of architecture and its current state of globalization.

Tschumi's architectural practice tends to focus on public or institutional projects.

Tschumi sees a renewed interest in cities and urban thinking among current architecture students.

Tschumi advises young architects to question everything and never take anything for granted.

Transcripts

[Music]

we're at the 2014 Venice banali in the

wine Suite of the hotel danielli and

we're talking to Bernard

shumi Bernard what was it that got you

interested in architecture and I suppose

to some extent it must been the fact

that your father was a was a world

famous architect

himself well maybe that's what at first

got me not interested in architecture is

I felt I knew everything before I even

began and so I was at the time as a as a

teenager I was certainly more interested

in literature in film in philosophy in

in in other things and probably would

have gone this way if I

hadn't had the opportunity to spend some

month in the US at age

17 and uh in a different cultural

context and visiting

Chicago I suddenly discovered what a

city could be coming from a all smallish

Swiss town uh I knew Paris sure because

my mother was from there but visiting a

great American city just changed my view

of the world and it is in Chicago that I

decided to become an architect it was

the weight the

sheer uh Gravity the strength the

density uh Chicago was very different

then we're talking about uh we're

talking about the 1961

62 before the Loop and that whole area

had been developed interestingly enough

you didn't have the perception of

individual objects you had the the

feeling of a mass a mass which was

uniformly 12 stories high in in between

sort of shafts had been carved to let

some light pass and of course you had

the elevated

Subway just it looked like one huge

block of Rock in which one had cved some

opening now Chicago is very something

else it's a series of individual Towers

the Misan model I love M but the Misan

model has not been so good for Chicago

and how did you find your architectural

education um was it interested in cities

in the way that you were interested or

was it a kind of more traditional model

I went probably to one of the best

traditional schools in other words the

eth in surich uh they were not terribly

interested in cities except I had a very

good Urban history Professor Paul Paulo

Paul Hofer and uh yes I was interested

but within a context which was really of

Swiss

architecture very much as we knew it at

the time and that we still know it today

and I obviously uh went through the

motions uh did reasonably well uh but by

the end of my four four and a half years

was already looking quite distinctly

elsewhere and where was the elsewhere

what happened next uh I had met Cedric

price and I wanted to work for him and

uh I uh well let me tell you the story

uh

I wanted him to be invited to give a

lecture at at the school and as a

student representative I normally I

would have had my way but I was told by

my distinguished professors that Cedric

was not architecture and therefore we

should not invite him uh which made him

even more interesting for me and uh

that's then another long story and at

what point um did you start to make

designs for competitions and and to make

buildings I was in Paris doing my what

they call you know my practice

here sort of being an intern in an

office and I spend that time as it

happens by chance in Paris at candelis

Jos and

woods and

um that made us a what I would would

describe as a vag critical generation in

other words quite wary of the strange

relationship of architecture with power

money

and a whole lot of received ideas a lot

of the modern movement had lost its

originality and its rubbing you know

power it was

formulas so uh during a few years and

that's probably what brought me to

England I decided to rather spend my

time asking questions about what

architecture was so that was first my

interest for

cedc but also uh I ended up teaching at

da and in a context which was

encouraging people to ask

questions uh tutors would not give

programs they would ask the students to

invent a program this is actually

difficult so that set up a uh situation

which uh really

requested uh not looking not only at

architecture but at things which were

happening in the margins in other words

the art scene the literary scene etc etc

I was quite close to people at in London

at St Martin's or at the Royal College

of Art and there was quite an

interesting exchange to such an extent

that it made me feel I had to go even

further into it my interest for cities

that had gone from Paris to London now

was moving towards New York there was an

incredibly you know exciting intense uh

art scene in in New York and there I

started to draw again I had stopped

drawing for five or six years after

68 and by this time the drawings were

substantially more experimental they had

a relatively little with actual

designing building but a lot to do with

the city namely trying to find a way to

develop a mode of expression I used to

call it

notation uh that would show not only

plan sections and elevation

but also the movements of bodies in

space and this led to what was called

The Manhattan transcripts it was

exhibited in art galleries and all the

sort of thing and um so it's only

another six years later in other words

literally 12 years after I had

graduated that I said well let

now so far so good let's see if I can

use some of these

ER thoughts ER ideas or experiments into

a real project and that's the first time

with the p laet that I did a competition

and this this competition when was

Sensational because here was an entirely

different sort of proposition about the

city about a park um and a a a way of

architectural thinking um were you

shocked when you won or did you assume

that actually that's what

Paris would

respect I'm tempting to tell you

both the the real truth I was really uh

I did not expect it at all uh however

the first note that I wrote you know on

I used S 8 and a half by 11 Ines you

know I A4 paper and there was a little

note that was pinned up and it said do

we do this competition uh for history or

just because we want to win it I had to

in the way to learn everything because

frankly I didn't know very much and it

was probably my ignorance my innocence

which helped me lifting political

mountains and other you know economic

and and and functional

difficulties uh because uh in in many

ways the project was

unusual also in the manner one organizes

a site one organizes users and so on and

uh I was extraordin lucky it worked and

actually there was an intriguing moment

where it looked as though Cedric price

might actually do some sort of Pavilion

um AB laet it was designed with Frank

Nub's engineer absolutely quite a

substantial um job but I got the

impression that um that the the budgets

were starting to be trimmed and it was

never realized this is exactly what

happened ER I had asked

him being not only the architect but

this Chief Architect of the whole

operation I had asked a few people

including Cedric to design something uh

and Ina in the case of Cedric it was

quite a substantial

greenhouse and he had worked quite

seriously on it but it had to be

financed not only by state public money

but also by private money and the

private money never came it was never

done but you might be amused to know

that I just completed we you probably

know I just completed the uh the New

Paris zoo and the greenhouse that uh I

built there is a sort of Silent homage

to that very design by

Cedric can I ask you about um your idea

about notation uh and and architecture

and the extent to which um that impulse

almost to combine formal architectural

description with something more to do

with choreography perhaps than than

architecture has that line of thinking

in your work being consistent or has it

adjusted and

changed I would say it's it's it's

amusing because of the exhibition that

we just opened just very recently at the

s pompo in Paris which covers in a

period that starts with the notation

project the drawings of you know

movement of bodies in

space and ends with the current work

it's interesting to see how coherent the

work is and how many devices that were

invented at the time are being now you

know applied the difference is that uh

the the way they were applied in the

early work in the drawings was very L

literal you'd see arrows in you know

drawn on a piece of paper now I don't

have to do it it's in my head I just can

immediately sort of materialize it in

terms of a set of of

of of plans that are part of a concept

that

includes such uh notation and is it

possible to apply that technique if one

could call it that in thinking about

master planning large areas of of a city

rather than a single building or even a

single complex project but thinking

about the city as a whole not only do I

think of course of course you can

considering that a lot of the the

workings of a city have to do with

exchange and

movement but also the fact that it

brings a certain level of

uncertainty in a house you might

determine everything in a city you

cannot and you should

not so the way I see it when we do Urban

project or design projects I see it very

much as a game imagine a form of chess

game or Monopoly or whatever where the

various pieces can be moved around and

all the architect does is to establish

the game

board a few pieces a few rules and then

let the user or whoever H start to play

and and develop it as a dynamic process

and not as a Frozen

image there a kind of um theory of

endless interaction or interactions to

inter reactions I would say so yeah and

how do you see the condition of the

Contemporary city um well first in the

west and then perhaps in the emerging

cities of of uh of Asia and the Far East

do you do you draw comfort from the

architectural thinking that's going into

them here my answer is not going to be

very very happy and not very

optimistic I do think that architects in

the last 15 years last 20 years at a

time of Maximum urbanization in the

whole history of mankind have completely

failed in their missions to design the

city of today or tomorrow and this is a

I think we all responsible I probably I

as much as my whole

generation something has happened that

instead of giving the proper guidelines

and among those hundreds of cities that

are being built hardly any of them is

done with some sort of an objective

sense of experimentation of testing

certain hypotheses and seeing how they

can be demonstrated at the moment they

are mostly all alike especially when we

talk about countries like the Middle

East or especially of course China and

there uh there is a very very serious

problem we are learning absolutely we

are learning very little from what is

being built at the moment I could also

extend your question to the uh the

cities in you know in the call it

historical West London Paris Munich and

so

on where uh

somehow an

incredible

timidity as as we placed the

extraordinary thought and thinking

processes that were taking place

throughout the 20th century in the 20s

the 30s the 40s the 50s the 60s we have

seen quite including the 70s and I may

totally disagree with Leon ker and his

propos proposal at least there was a

thinking going on ER so

somehow ER

I'm I hope that we can call it a period

of

transition that uh by historically I

know when the uh when the work is too

banel or when the work is very much a re

so-called dictionary of received

ideas then irritation sets

in and critique and possibly Theory

comes back so this is my hope as far as

the city of Tomorrow there's a there's

an interesting way in

which your father as a founder of the

international Union of Architects the

UIA yes was engaged in it as it were the

moral and ethical challenges that faced

the profession and by definition it was

internationalist in Outlook and I wonder

whether you think that that attitude

somehow is sort of transmuted into

something which is sort of super

internationalist globalized yet somehow

the interests of Architects have become

much more individual much less concerned

um for the most part with a kind of with

the common good or with the generality

about what is happening to everybody as

opposed to what is happening for their

individual

clients uh if we try to look back at

what was happening in the late

40s when Architects got together and

decided to put together a sort of

international uh

dialogue uh it is clearly due to the

fact that Europe and the world had been

hurt tremendously by two world wars and

the intense as far as I'm aware of it

was really to reestablish a

dialogue uh among Architects that would

go above and beyond those nationalistic

differences and political differences so

that was the starting point now the uh

the

evolution to the situation today is of

course that uh save for manifestation or

events like the Olympics which are you

know highly uh nationalistic everything

has become quite Global and Architects

do travel everywhere H they have plenty

of opportunity including at such place

like this Venice Bale where we are at

the

moment where a dialogue is possible but

is there such a dialogue is the question

in other words are we really setting up

uh some questions some goals some

hypotheses or are we simply uh sort of

bathing into a you know a bath of

self-indulgence and and an

icon for the general Mass

consumption you have um practices in uh

New York and Paris my impression is that

uh most of the significant projects you

do tend to be either for public clients

or institutional clients rather than um

you know individual commercial property

developers uh is that from choice or is

it just the way the practi is developed

probably both probably both uh on one

hand it's the the history of of of of my

activity comes with a large public

project as you know with the p

laet therefore I have been quite

attracted to enter a number of

competitions we do reasonably well we

win probably one out of four they are

public competition

I'm able to choose these so that's

that's probably the the primary reason

and it gives quite the possibility of a

range an international range of of of

possibilities we have in between some

private clients will come to us and we

do certain projects uh currently uh I'm

completing two buildings near Geneva one

for the second watch Factory after the

first one I had done a few years back

and uh for a large concert hall for a

private educational institution but a

very serious philarmonic hall for th000

fet and both are private so the two and

in New York when we did the blue Tower H

that was also private people who

generally would approach us I have to

say say almost out of the

blue but nevertheless as you said

correctly the majority of the the

project you know the uh various concert

halls or the new Acropolis Museum and so

on uh do come from public competitions

the other aspect of um your life as an

architect which is also public or qu

public is is as a

teacher what do you see in today's

architecture students at Colombia that

reminds you of when you were a student

or are they quite

different I you know I think

architecture is something quite

extraordinary because it's still in the

making uh there's in no way uh the

feeling that it's not still in front of

us and so the places places like schools

are quite extraordinary because they are

really the places is that prepare the

Brew of what architecture will become

tomorrow the young faculty generally

that has more energy and invention than

actual work are fantastic people to work

with and indeed to develop what will

become you know by necessity uh the

architecture and the cities of the Next

Generation and do you find that there's

an interest which obviously you would

share um with cities of the future or is

there more interest in as it were the

kind of individual concerns and

psychological considerations to do with

space and time well amusingly enough I I

would say but that's that's an immediate

answer I me an answer which has to do

with literally the last few years

looking around H what what is happening

around me I would say h there are two

extremes

um very few actual building to be

designed and you know the buildings that

are published in the magazines are not

necessarily what seem to

interest the people in the school what

interests them is at the two ends of the

spectrum either the very small or the

very large the very small could be

described as fabrication how does one

uses a number of extraordinary softwares

to build up components and and even to

build you know apps for this that will

allow you know new way to perceive space

a on the other hand ER the discussion

about cities is indeed coming back I

don't know where it's going at this

stage but it is there there is really an

awareness probably because of the fact

that people travel a lot H will do at

Colombia they will do project you know

in Doha or in in Istanbul or in outside

Tokyo and so on and they will think

quite seriously about that very problem

that I mentioned you know a few minutes

ago about the fact that we are

unfortunately in a rather you

know not terribly creative period about

City thinking do you think that in a

sense the collapse of space and time

because communication and travel are so

much faster if indeed they're they're

necessary at all in the case of travel

um that Architects actually have yet to

find a way of working in a digital world

which isn't a kind of echo of of working

in an analog way uh if you like I mean I

ask this because I'm just think I've

I've been thinking about your your point

about notation and in a way what you

were doing with that um Lillet

proposition I mean does have to do with

how do you represent a world in which

space and time can vanish or be be

caleidoscope or be expanded and actually

it's not so far off what we are now

experiencing in in in in a kind of

digital environment

I'm going to amuse you before just

before that time when I came to London

and then to New York I did with a friend

of mine a project called doit yourself

City it's a project which is heavily

influenced by Cedric and by his second

Fun Palace the one that traveled

around and uh where uh the role of the

internet the internet had not been

invented yet but the role of mass

communication and ability for people to

simultaneously live in real space but

communicate in you know in through

through media was the starting point or

even the whole organization of uh

something that could be integrated to

the into the existing City or the New

Towns or whatever so that aware Wess was

there I think it is still uh possible

and

uh it will inevitably come so Architects

are always a little slow sometime

they're faster than others sometime they

take a while right but I think your

question is ex is is absolutely correct

there's a moment when the two will

interact in other words the the the

software and the hardware or the uh um

in a way the uh the invisible media

including the social media and the

architectural you know hard

stuff a final question if you were

giving advice and you may well give

advice to uh young architects who are

about to start practice or try to start

practice what advice would you give them

based on your own experience of

competion i s buildings

exhibitions never take anything for

granted H never accept what people tell

you the solution is always start with a

question but Shi thank you very much

thank

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you

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