Why Startups Hate .NET and C#

Summary

In this video, Nick discusses the question of why .NET and C# are not as popular among startups compared to other frameworks and languages, despite being free, cross-platform, and fast. He analyzes Reddit comments and LinkedIn job data, highlighting factors like the preference for JavaScript in younger teams, the full-stack capabilities of JavaScript, and legacy perceptions of .NET as a corporate tool. He also addresses misconceptions about .NET's cost and openness and points out that C# remains popular, ranking fifth in the latest Stack Overflow survey. The video encourages viewers to share their thoughts on the topic and reminds them that popularity varies by market and that there are plenty of opportunities for .NET and C# developers.

Takeaways

• 🤔 The video discusses why .NET and C# might not be as popular as other frameworks or languages, especially in startups.
• 📊 The script references job market data from platforms like LinkedIn and Indeed, showing that while .NET and C# jobs may be fewer, they are still significant in number.
• 🌐 It highlights that .NET is cross-platform and fast, dispelling myths about its capabilities.
• 📝 The speaker suggests that the popularity of JavaScript and Python among younger developers and in universities contributes to their preference in startups.
• 💼 There's a perception that .NET and C# are associated with legacy thinking and are not as modern as other languages.
• 📚 The video mentions that startups often prefer full-stack JavaScript due to better tooling, libraries, and frameworks.
• 🔒 There's a misconception that .NET and C# are not free or open source, which might deter some startups.
• 👥 The speaker argues that the popularity of a language or framework doesn't dictate its value or necessity for every developer.
• 📈 According to the latest Stack Overflow survey, C# is the fifth most popular programming language, indicating it remains widely used.
• 🌟 The video concludes by emphasizing that while .NET and C# may not be the most popular, they are still very much in demand and relevant in the industry.
• 💻 The speaker encourages developers to continue using the tools and languages they prefer, regardless of trends.

Q & A

Why does the video discuss the popularity of .NET and C# among startups?

The video discusses the popularity of .NET and C# among startups in response to a Reddit post that questions why these technologies are not as popular as others, especially in the context of startups, despite being free, cross-platform, and fast.

What is the new course launched on Dom train mentioned in the video?

The new course launched on Dom train is called 'From Zero to Hero Docker for Developers,' which aims to teach everything about Docker, from the basics to advanced topics like security and best practices.

What is the main observation made by the person who posted on Reddit regarding .NET and C#?

The main observation made by the Reddit poster is that, based on LinkedIn jobs, .NET and C# are often not chosen for backend development, especially when compared to Java or Node.js.

How does the video address the perception of .NET and C# being less popular for startups?

The video addresses this perception by analyzing comments from a person with experience working with startups, discussing reasons such as the tendency of younger teams to prefer JavaScript, the full-stack capabilities of JavaScript, legacy thinking around .NET and C#, and misconceptions about the cost and openness of .NET and C#.

What are some of the reasons startups might prefer JavaScript over .NET and C# according to the video?

Some reasons startups might prefer JavaScript over .NET and C# include younger teams being more comfortable with JavaScript, the full-stack capabilities and better tooling for JavaScript, easier hiring for JavaScript positions, and the perception of .NET and C# as having a legacy image.

What does the video suggest about the misconception that .NET and C# are not free or open source?

The video suggests that despite .NET and C# being free and open source, there is a lingering misconception that they are not, which might deter some startups from adopting them.

How does the video refute the claim that .NET and C# are not suitable for multi-threading applications?

The video refutes this claim by explaining that .NET's concurrency model, especially with async/await, makes it easier to handle multi-threading without the complexities associated with traditional threading models.

What does the video say about the popularity of .NET and C# in the job market?

The video indicates that while .NET and C# might not be as prevalent in startups, especially in certain locations like London, they are still very popular and in high demand in the job market, particularly in larger companies and the finance sector.

What is the position of C# in the latest stack overflow survey of 2023 mentioned in the video?

According to the video, in the latest stack overflow survey of 2023, C# is ranked as the fifth most popular programming language.

What advice does the video give to developers regarding the popularity of programming languages?

The video advises developers not to worry about the popularity of programming languages too much, as there are plenty of jobs available for .NET and C# developers, especially in established companies. It also emphasizes that being one of the most popular languages is sufficient.

What does the video suggest about the importance of being up-to-date with the latest developments in technology?

The video suggests that being up-to-date with the latest developments in technology is important, as it helps developers make informed decisions about which technologies to adopt and use, and it also helps in dispelling misconceptions about certain technologies.

Outlines

00:00

🤔 Popularity of .NET and C# in Startups

Nick discusses the question of why .NET and C# might not be as popular as other frameworks or languages, particularly in startups. He references a Reddit post and explores the comments and claims made there. The video aims to understand the reasons behind the perceived lack of popularity, inviting viewers to share their thoughts. Nick also promotes a new course on Docker for developers, highlighting its importance and the expertise of the author, Dan Clark. He provides a discount code for the first 400 viewers. The discussion then turns to the reasons behind the limited adoption of .NET in startups, including a comparison of job postings and the observation that startups tend to favor languages like Java and Node.js over .NET.

05:02

📊 Reasons Behind .NET and C# Selection in Startups

The second paragraph delves into specific reasons why .NET and C# might not be chosen by startups, as suggested by a comment from C Diggs, who has experience working with startups. The reasons include a preference for younger teams who are more comfortable with JavaScript, the advantage of JavaScript for full-stack development with better tooling and library availability, and the perception of .NET and C# as having legacy thinking. Nick also mentions that despite .NET being cross-platform and fast, the old connotations of .NET being used by 'old people in suits' persist. He acknowledges that Microsoft is trying to change this perception but habits are hard to break. The paragraph also touches on the misconception that .NET is expensive and not free, which might deter startups from adopting it.

10:04

🔍 Market Perception and Language Popularity

In the final paragraph, Nick wraps up the discussion by emphasizing that not every language or tool needs to be the most popular to be successful. He points out that while some startups may not choose .NET and C#, there are still plenty of jobs available for developers skilled in these technologies, especially in established companies. He also references the latest Stack Overflow survey, which ranks C# as the fifth most popular programming language, indicating that it is still widely used and valued. Nick encourages viewers not to worry about the popularity contest and to focus on their skills and the value they bring as developers.

Keywords

💡.NET

.NET is a free, cross-platform, open-source developer platform initiated by Microsoft. It is designed for building a wide range of applications and services. In the video, the speaker discusses the popularity of .NET among startups and compares it with other frameworks, noting that despite being fast and efficient, it might not be as popular as others like Node.js or Java.

💡C#

C#, pronounced 'C sharp', is a programming language developed by Microsoft as part of its .NET initiative. It is known for its simplicity and powerful features that make it suitable for a variety of applications. The video script mentions C# in the context of its popularity relative to other languages, particularly in startups, and discusses reasons why it might not be as widely adopted.

💡Startups

Startups refer to new businesses that are in the initial stages of development and growth. The video explores the question of why .NET and C# might not be as popular among startups compared to other technologies. Factors such as the preference for certain programming languages, cost, and the nature of the development team are discussed.

💡Cross-platform

Cross-platform refers to the ability of software to run on multiple operating systems or platforms without the need for modification. The script mentions that .NET and C# are cross-platform, which is a significant advantage as it allows developers to create applications that can run on Windows, Linux, and macOS.

💡Open Source

Open source denotes software whose source code is made available to the public, allowing anyone to view, use, modify, and distribute the software. The video script discusses the misconception that .NET and C# might not be open source or free, which could influence their adoption by startups.

💡Node.js

Node.js is a popular runtime environment for executing JavaScript code outside of a browser. It is often used for building scalable network applications. The video contrasts the popularity of Node.js with .NET and C#, suggesting that Node.js might be preferred for certain types of startup projects.

💡Java

Java is a widely-used programming language known for its portability and robustness. It is often used in enterprise environments and large-scale applications. The script compares the popularity of Java with .NET and C#, noting that Java might have an edge in certain job markets and among startups.

💡Full Stack

Full stack refers to the complete set of technologies and skills required to develop both the front-end (client-side) and back-end (server-side) of an application. The video mentions that startups often prefer full-stack JavaScript because it allows developers to work on both the front-end and back-end using a single language.

💡Legacy Thinking

Legacy thinking refers to the mindset or habits that persist from the past, often hindering progress or innovation. The script discusses how legacy thinking around .NET and C#, such as the perception that they are old-fashioned or suited only for enterprise environments, might affect their adoption by startups.

💡Concurrency Model

The concurrency model in programming refers to how a language or system manages multiple tasks or processes running at the same time. The video mentions that C#'s concurrency model, particularly with features like async and await, simplifies multi-threading and could be a point in its favor for developers.

💡Stack Overflow

Stack Overflow is a popular online community for programmers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. The video uses Stack Overflow's data to illustrate the popularity of different programming languages and technologies among developers, including .NET and C#.

Highlights

Nick discusses the popularity of .NET and C# in comparison to other frameworks and languages, particularly in startups.

The video explores reasons behind .NET and C# not being as popular as other technologies like Node.js or Java.

Nick invites viewers to share their thoughts on the topic and to keep the discussion civilized.

Introduction of a new course on Dom train called 'From Zero to Hero: Docker for Developers'.

The course aims to teach everything about Docker, from basics to advanced security and best practices.

Author Dan Clark's extensive experience with Docker is highlighted, emphasizing the course's practical insights.

A limited-time discount code is offered for the first 400 viewers to claim a 15% discount on the Docker course.

Nick reads a Reddit post questioning the popularity of .NET among startups, especially in India.

Comparison of job postings for .NET, Java, and JavaScript software engineers on job platforms.

Observation that younger teams tend to prefer JavaScript and Python over C# for programming.

Discussion on the full-stack capabilities of JavaScript and its advantages for startups.

Legacy thinking around C# and .NET as being associated with older, more traditional enterprises.

Microsoft's efforts to overcome the legacy image and promote modern features of .NET and C#.

The impact of past decisions on .NET's image, such as the OmniSharp and dotnet watch issues.

Dispute over the claim that fear of multi-threading in C# affects its adoption in startups.

Debate on whether the disdain for object-oriented programming affects the choice of C# in startups.

Contrasting views on whether C# and Java are considered too mainstream or not hip enough for startups.

Historical reasons such as Microsoft's past monopoly and its effect on .NET's adoption.

Misperceptions about the cost of .NET and C#, with clarifications on their free and open-source status.

Nick's personal experience observing the use of .NET in UK startups versus large companies.

The importance of recognizing the diversity of programming language preferences and ecosystems.

C#'s ranking as the fifth most popular programming language according to the latest Stack Overflow survey.

Encouragement for developers not to worry about the popularity contest and focus on their skills.

Nick concludes by inviting viewers to share their thoughts on why .NET and C# might not be as popular as other languages.

Transcripts

hello everybody I'm Nick and every now

and then we get a post like this on

Reddit asking why isn't.net as popular

as other Frameworks or why isn't c-sharp

as popular as other languages especially

on startups if they're both free

cross-platform and very very fast faster

than the vast majority of what is out

there if compared to things like node

for example or Javas we can see here

well in this video I want to take a look

at the comments of this post and the

claims of this post as well and try to

see if we can figure out why that is the

case because it is certainly the case as

always I want to know your thoughts so

please leave a comment down below at any

point if you have something to say and

please keep it civilized c sharpen.net

as just languages and tools and if you

like using a tool it doesn't mean that

everyone has to like it if you like our

content and you want to see more make

sure you subscribe for more training

check out my courses on domtrain.com now

before I move on I'd like to let you

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claim your discount now back to the

video okay so first let's read this post

so why isn't.net popular among startups

so is there any specific reason why

especially in India which is where this

person is located I am assuming I don't

tend to use dotnet for backend

especially if it is open source encross

platform now the main observation is

claiming to be based on LinkedIn jobs

and it's comparing it with things like

Java or node which are picked over.net

now if I go on something like indeed for

example and I say dot net software

engineer then what you're going to see

is 747 jobs in London and if I say

something like Java software engineer

then clearly you see quite a few more

and if I say JavaScript which can mean

anything really but you can't really say

node.js software engineer then you're

gonna see even more over here so

depending on your location you might see

more or less jobs for C shop and dotnet

but they're still very high in fact if I

change those sales results and I said

for the whole of England they will

pretty much match or exceed what Java

has to offer in England but what I want

to take a look at is this comment over

here by C Diggs which actually goes in

depth with concrete examples in terms of

why.net and C shop isn't really picked

so in terms of background the person is

saying that they have been working

exclusively with startups for the past

two years plus so things like series C

uh y combinator startup and so on and so

forth and one of the main things is that

they propose C sharp at one startup to

refactor the existing back end which was

in node and they got so much pushback

even though they did not expect it that

they end up writing five blog posts

about it which I highly recommend you

check out as well I'm gonna put a link

to this Reddit post in the description

if you want to take a look but let's

start with the first one so startups

tend to skew younger and younger teams

that are more comfortable with

JavaScript that is certainly true

c-sharp isn't really a starter language

if you say getting started with

programming you're probably gonna see

JavaScript and python as the two main

things and they're also the two main

languages are being taught in

universities so there's a very valid

reasons why a younger team with younger

developers would go straight away to

JavaScript because not only it's easier

to understand and work with but it's

also easier to hire for now the second

point which is also a very valid one is

that startups starting to work with full

stack and JavaScript is better for full

stack work that is basically undeniable

not only the tooling is better but

availability in libraries and Frameworks

is way way better and you can adapt your

knowledge both for the front end and the

back end so you can find the job easier

which means people looking for

developers can't find the developer

easier as well which leads to that being

a better option for startups it can also

mean that because it's so much

availability you can get someone for

cheaper while social developers tend to

be more expensive as well now the third

point is one of the most important ones

and I would actually start this whole

list with this one which is there's a

lot of Legacy thinking around cshop and

Dot net this is certainly true yes it is

cross-platform yes it is extremely fast

faster than most of things out there yes

you can use it on Linux Mac

um whatever you want but the old

connotations of dotnet being this old

people with suits use dot net it's still

pretty much how people think when they

think of C sharpen.net which is not so

much the case for things like rust go or

even node now the reason much Microsoft

can do with that because they keep

trying to do their best with showing

that the tooling we have and the

language is very fast and we have new

modern features and so on so it's just a

situation where all the habits die hard

and to be honest I think that Java also

suffers from the same problem to a

degree the Legacy thinking idea but

because it was open source from the

beginning it doesn't have that negative

aspect as well that it needs to carry

over now the fourth point is standard

image for a few bad decisions now yes

the Omni shop to dev kit thing and the

dotnet watch Fiasco yes those are

important points but I don't really

think that people outside.net really saw

them or care about them so I would kind

of dismiss that point this is more of a

point for people who are already

using.net and C shop not those looking

to adopt it I don't really think that

these types of people saw any of this

now don't really agree on the seventh

point which is fear of multi-threading I

think this is more of a problem in Java

than in dot net things like locking

object lifetimes resource sharing it

isn't so much of a big problem mainly

because of the concurrency model we have

with a white async that you don't really

need to worry about much of the

threading aspect if you really need to

work on a multi-threading application

then you're sort of a certain type of

developer which wouldn't have an issue

using C sharp in the first place so I

don't really agree with this point too

much I also don't really agree with

Point 8 which is disdained for object

oriented programming yes oop is a bit

frowned upon nowadays and some of those

ideas are pretty outdated and bad or

considered bad by many including myself

there's some things in op I really

really hate and at some point if you

want me can make a video on that but I

don't think the fact that c-sharp is an

OP language is the reason why it's not

being picked technically JavaScript is

also an OP language so what point are

you really trying to make here here it

can still be used in a functional way or

a non-oop way so you don't have to write

it in an oop fashion also point and

there's a line of thinking that C sharp

and Java are too mainstream I don't

really agree with that I would argue

that JavaScript and python are way way

way more mainstream than C sharp and

Java so what exactly you're trying to

say yes rust is less mainstream and more

hip or whatever at this point but this

will change because it's part of the

natural progression of a language now if

we take a look at the other comments you

will also see the same sort of idea as

0.3 from the previous which is well

historic reasons people just hate

Microsoft they think Microsoft Monopoly

they think Windows only and so on and

that's why it is not being used other

people point out that startups did not

get the memo that.net is no longer

expensive but I would argue if you are a

developer in a startup you would

probably know the latest and greatest

and enough about it so you would know

that c sharpen.net are not expensive and

looking at this reply over here actually

just shows that yes people still don't

know that c sharpen.net are free for

example is it not expensive anymore how

is it compared to node where node is

actually free completely and the answer

is both C sharp and net are also free

and then the person says oh I was

confused because I was thinking Visual

Studio license which Community version

is free for small teams only and then

the answer is small with a lot of air

quotes it can be used if you have under

1 million Revenue which by the way it's

a very very low Revenue so I don't like

this argument you are better off with

rider here now in other answers this

must be original here in the UK it is

used extensively in startups unless

companies alike I've personally seen it

way more in large companies and not too

many large companies I have worked with

some of those some of the biggest

commands here in the UK and I can tell

you yes it is used quite a bit

especially in finance but it is not as

used in startups especially in London

which is where I live so as you can see

even from the replies to these comments

over here there is still this

understanding that for some reason C

sharp is not free or open source or

close platform and that's why it's not

chosen but you have to keep in mind that

in 2023 you never had more options and

not everyone will like the exact same

thing not every Market is the same not

every tool is the same as every

ecosystem is the same not every country

is the same and that is fine not

everyone has to use.net you don't have

to feel like you belong somewhere to

enjoy a language for the love of God

there's F-sharp developers and all five

of them love F sharp and nobody can tell

them anything about it so you don't have

to feel like everyone has to be using

your language you will find a job you

will find the.net job and see shop job

everywhere really and that's for the

years to come we don't have to be the

most popular you just have to be one of

the most popular in fact if we take a

look at the latest stack of the flow

service of 2093 and we only look to real

programming languages c-sharp is number

five so JavaScript python typescript

Java and C sharp so being fifth out of

however many is extremely extremely

popular yes everybody likes rust and go

but they're all the way down here and

kotlin down here Ruby don't hit Dart

down here and Swift down here so don't

worry you won't be out of a job anytime

soon and in fact 9 out of 10 startups

will fail so you don't have to worry too

much about them because the money is

elsewhere in the established companies

and we have plenty of those and plenty

of jobs for c-sharp developers but now I

wanna know from you what do you think C

sharpen.net isn't really picked compared

to other languages by startups or

companies in general well that's all I

have for you thank you very much for

watching and as always keep coding