Integrating Circularity in the Supply Chain - Anois

Summary

这段视频脚本中，主持人麦迪逊采访了全球设计机构Anish的创始人兼全球设计总监弗兰克·奥康纳，他是一位拥有30多年循环经济经验的行业领袖。弗兰克分享了他如何将系统设计思维应用于组织战略，以促进可持续性、循环性和责任性贯穿整个价值链。他强调了设计思维、商业模式、品牌价值和供应链之间的联系，以及如何通过多方利益相关者合作来实现这些目标。此外，弗兰克还讨论了他与联合国的合作，以及如何将欧洲的可持续实践应用到全球范围内，特别是在发展中国家。他鼓励企业诚实透明地与消费者沟通，即使在追求完美的过程中可能会犯错。最后，他强调了跨行业合作的重要性，以及如何通过分享知识和最佳实践来共同推动向可持续和循环经济的转型。

Takeaways

• 🌟 弗兰克·奥康纳是全球设计机构Anish的董事，专注于可持续性和循环经济的设计价值创造。
• 📚 他在循环经济领域拥有30多年的行业领导经验，专长包括政府政策、商业实践、生态设计教育以及可持续和循环经济发展。
• 🏆 弗兰克创立并领导了2006年的获奖生态设计中心，致力于推动系统设计视角，帮助组织构建涵盖价值链、供应链、品牌、产品包装和商业模式的全面战略。
• 🔄 他强调了循环经济的重要性，认为循环性是可持续设计的一个子集，而可持续性是一个更广泛的概念，包括社会、伦理、环境和经济元素。
• 💼 弗兰克认为，设计应从一开始就考虑减少浪费，并且产品设计应与业务模式相结合，以实现资源的最大化利用和最小化环境影响。
• 🔗 他提倡跨行业合作，通过分享知识和最佳实践来促进不同行业间的学习和改进。
• 🛠️ 弗兰克强调了设计思维的重要性，认为设计不仅仅是为了客户，还要考虑运输、分发、服务行业、包装以及产品的回收和再制造。
• 🌐 他分享了与联合国和欧盟委员会合作的经验，强调了在不同国家和地区推广可持续实践的重要性，以及根据当地情况调整策略的必要性。
• 🔍 弗兰克认为，企业需要采取系统视角，理解产品在整个生命周期中的影响，并寻找方法来保持材料的循环利用。
• 🤝 他提倡企业间的诚实和透明，鼓励企业公开其可持续实践的进展和挑战，以及他们计划如何改进。
• 🚀 弗兰克鼓励创新和持续改进，相信通过分享知识和最佳实践，企业可以不断提高其可持续性表现。

Q & A

弗兰克·奥康纳是谁，他在循环经济领域有哪些专长？

弗兰克·奥康纳是全球设计机构Anish的董事，拥有超过30年的循环经济行业领导经验。他专长于政府政策、商业实践、生态设计教育以及可持续和循环经济的整体发展。

Anish机构的使命是什么？

Anish机构的使命是通过系统设计视角，帮助组织制定战略，将价值链、供应链、品牌、产品包装和商业模式整合在一起，以实现可持续性、循环性和责任贯穿整个价值链。

弗兰克·奥康纳如何看待循环经济和可持续性之间的关系？

他认为循环性是可持续设计的一个子集。对他来说，可持续性是全面的，包括社会、伦理、环境和经济要素。循环性虽然重要，但应在可持续性的整体框架内考虑，确保产品在不损害环境和人民的情况下，通过设计和技术手段实现资源的最大化利用。

在设计产品时，为什么需要考虑整个价值链？

考虑整个价值链可以确保产品设计不仅满足客户需求，还要适应运输、分发、服务、包装、回收、再利用和再制造等环节。这有助于减少对地球的损害，并确保材料能够为后代所用。

弗兰克·奥康纳如何定义真正的成本，并如何将其纳入产品设计？

真正的成本是指在整个价值链中纳入所有外部性的成本。这包括环境影响、社会影响和经济影响。在产品设计时纳入真正的成本概念，可以促进对资源的负责任使用，并推动企业采取更加可持续和循环的做法。

为什么跨行业合作对于推动可持续性和循环经济至关重要？

跨行业合作可以促进不同行业之间的知识共享，因为不同行业的企业可以在没有直接竞争的情况下更开放地分享他们的供应链管理、商业模式和可持续性实践。这种合作有助于企业学习并实施更有效的可持续策略。

在推动循环经济的过程中，企业应该如何处理罕见或关键材料的使用？

企业应该意识到罕见或关键材料的稀缺性，并评估其在整个产品生命周期中的影响。可能需要重新考虑产品设计，以减少对这些材料的依赖，或者寻找替代材料，以确保资源的可持续利用。

如何确保企业在实施可持续供应链时采取整体或全面的方法？

企业需要采取整体方法，考虑产品设计、业务模式、价值链和供应链的每个环节。这包括与多方利益相关者进行合作，确保从原材料采购到产品最终处置的每个步骤都符合可持续性和循环经济的原则。

为什么说透明度和诚实对于企业在可持续性和循环经济中的成功至关重要？

透明度和诚实有助于建立消费者和利益相关者的信任。当企业公开其可持续实践、挑战和进步时，它们能够展示其对可持续性的承诺，并鼓励消费者和其他企业采取类似行动。

弗兰克·奥康纳如何帮助企业识别和解决他们在可持续性和循环经济方面面临的真正问题？

通过与企业进行深入对话和合作，弗兰克·奥康纳帮助它们识别整个价值链中的关键问题，并提供定制化的解决方案。这可能涉及挑战传统的业务模式，提出创新的设计思路，或者促进与其他行业或部门的合作。

在推动可持续性和循环经济的实践中，企业如何确保他们的实践与品牌价值观保持一致？

企业需要确保他们的可持续性和循环经济实践与品牌价值观相一致。这可能包括在产品设计、材料选择、生产过程和营销策略中体现这些价值观。通过这种方式，企业可以在市场上建立一个与其可持续性承诺相符的强大品牌形象。

Outlines

00:00

😀 欢迎与介绍

本段介绍了视频的开场，主持人向观众介绍了嘉宾Frank O'Connor，他是全球设计机构的负责人，专注于可持续性和循环经济的设计。Frank拥有超过30年的循环经济行业领导经验，专长于政府政策、商业实践、生态设计教育以及可持续和循环经济发展。此外，他还创立并领导了获奖的生态设计中心。主持人表达了对Frank的欢迎，并期待与他就循环经济和可持续性进行对话。

05:02

🔄 循环经济与系统设计

Frank O'Connor分享了他和他的合作伙伴Jude Cherry创建的机构——Aniish的使命，该机构采用系统设计视角，将价值链、供应链、品牌、产品包装和商业模式整合在一起，帮助组织看到更大的图景，理解不同连接如何工作，并制定真正嵌入可持续性、循环性和责任感的策略。

10:04

🚀 从废物到资源的转变

Frank讲述了他如何从1988年开始关注废物问题，并提出封闭循环经济的概念，这后来发展成为循环经济。他在日本公司工作期间开始考虑如何设计出浪费更少的产品，并与大型全球企业合作，推动从设计初期就考虑减少废物的理念。他还提到了在90年代末与一家日本公司合作，探索如何将产品重新带回市场，而不仅仅是回收它们，这让他意识到商业模式的重要性。

15:06

🌐 可持续发展与品牌价值

Frank分享了他在21世纪初与生产环保产品的公司合作的经历，强调了设计与品牌价值相结合的重要性，并提出了道德品牌与循环商业模式相结合的观点。他还提到了在设计中考虑废物作为资源的重要性，并强调任何浪费都应被视为设计缺陷。

20:07

🌟 国际合作与知识共享

Frank讨论了他与联合国的合作，特别是在亚洲、非洲、东欧和拉丁美洲的工作，旨在将欧洲的循环经济理念和实践带给发展中国家。他强调了共享学习、理解不同地区、行业和文化的需求，并根据当地情况调整政策的重要性。

25:07

🔧 循环性与可持续性的区别

在这段对话中，Frank分享了他对可持续性与循环性之间关系的看法。他认为循环性是可持续设计的一个子集，强调了可持续性是一个包含社会、伦理、环境和经济元素的全面概念。他指出，尽管循环性很重要，但它需要与责任和伦理元素结合在一起，以确保产品和供应链在环境和社会责任方面的可持续性。

30:07

🤝 合作与战略制定的重要性

Frank强调了在设计和实施可持续供应链时，与各利益相关方合作的重要性。他分享了自己在设计可回收产品时的经验，以及如何通过与不同行业和部门的合作，找到更有效的解决方案。他还讨论了如何将设计思维与商业模式相结合，以及如何通过教育和政策制定来支持可持续实践。

35:09

🔗 连接独立供应链与循环经济

在视频的最后部分，Frank讨论了如何将各个独立的可持续供应链连接到更广泛的循环经济中。他分享了通过跨行业合作和知识共享来促进不同公司之间的学习和合作的经验。他还强调了在不同行业之间建立联系的重要性，以及如何通过这种方式促进创新和更有效的资源利用。

Keywords

💡可持续性

可持续性是指在满足当前需求的同时，不损害未来世代满足其需求的能力。在视频中，可持续性是贯穿始终的主题，特别是在讨论循环经济、生态设计和整个价值链的责任感时。例如，Frank O'Connor提到了他在80年代末期就开始倡导爱尔兰的循环经济，这体现了他对可持续发展的长期承诺。

💡循环经济

循环经济是一种经济系统，旨在通过设计来消除浪费，通过循环利用来保持资源的持续利用。视频中，Frank O'Connor强调了循环经济的重要性，他提到了自己在90年代初期的工作，那时他开始将废物视为资源，并探索如何通过设计来实现这一点。

💡生态设计

生态设计是一种专注于减少环境影响的设计方法，它考虑产品整个生命周期中的环境、社会和经济因素。在视频中，Frank O'Connor提到了他与大型全球企业合作的经历，这些企业包括苹果、康柏、戴尔、IBM和微软，他们共同致力于从设计初期就减少废物的产生。

💡价值链

价值链是指企业在生产和交付产品或服务过程中的一系列活动，这些活动为企业创造价值。视频中，Frank O'Connor讨论了如何通过整合价值链、供应链、品牌、产品包装和商业模式，来帮助组织看到更大的图景，并制定真正嵌入可持续性、循环性和责任感的战略。

💡多方利益相关者

多方利益相关者指的是在决策过程中考虑所有受到决策影响的个人或团体，包括消费者、供应商、员工和社区等。Frank O'Connor在他的博士研究中强调了多方利益相关者生命周期方法，这种方法涉及与价值链上的关键利益相关者合作，共同开发产品。

💡品牌价值

品牌价值是指品牌所代表的无形资产，包括声誉、客户忠诚度和市场地位等。在视频中，Frank O'Connor提到了品牌价值与循环商业模式的匹配，强调了品牌在推动可持续和循环实践方面的重要性。

💡透明度

透明度是指信息的公开程度，使得外部人员能够清楚地了解组织的内部运作和决策过程。视频中，Frank O'Connor强调了透明度的重要性，他认为企业应该对其可持续性实践进行透明化，以便消费者和利益相关者能够了解其真实情况。

💡责任

责任是指个人或组织对其行为和决策的后果负责。在视频中，Frank O'Connor提到了在设计和业务模式中嵌入责任感的重要性，这涉及到对环境、社会和经济的全面考虑。

💡系统设计

系统设计是一种全面考虑产品、服务或政策如何在不同组件和利益相关者之间互动的方法。视频中，Frank O'Connor和他的合作伙伴Jude Cherry通过系统设计视角，帮助组织看到不同连接如何工作，并制定战略，将可持续性、循环性和责任感嵌入整个价值链。

💡教育

教育在推动可持续性实践中扮演着关键角色，它涉及到培养下一代的知识和技能，以便他们能够支持和推动这一议程。Frank O'Connor在视频中提到了他与教育的联系，包括他在生态系统中心的工作，该中心旨在通过教育培养能够实施政策和商业实践的毕业生。

Highlights

Frank O'Connor是全球设计机构Anish的董事，专注于可持续性设计和循环经济。

Anish机构的使命是帮助组织构建涵盖整个价值链的可持续、循环和负责任的战略。

Frank拥有超过30年的循环经济行业领导经验，并在政府政策、商业实践和环境设计教育方面有专业经验。

Frank创立并领导了获奖的生态设计中心，致力于推动多利益相关者协作和系统思维。

循环经济与可持续发展之间的关系被讨论，强调了循环性是可持续设计的一个子集。

Frank强调了设计废物减少和资源再利用的重要性，并分享了他早期在设计和废物管理方面的经验。

在90年代，Frank与苹果、戴尔、IBM和微软等大型全球公司合作，推动设计以减少废物产生。

Frank讨论了设计、商业模式和循环利用之间的关系，以及如何将这些元素整合到可持续性中。

他分享了在欧洲委员会和中国政府间的贸易项目中，如何推动产品和材料的多生命周期价值链。

Frank强调了透明度、问责制和系统视角在推动循环经济中的重要性。

他讨论了与联合国的合作，以及如何将欧洲的循环经济理念应用到发展中国家。

Frank分享了如何通过设计思维和系统设计方法，帮助企业实现从线性到循环的转变。

他讨论了供应链中不同部门间的合作，以及如何通过跨部门学习促进知识共享。

Frank强调了企业在推动可持续性变革中的责任，以及如何通过教育和政策制定来支持这一变革。

他分享了如何识别和解决企业在可持续供应链管理中遇到的实际问题。

Frank讨论了如何通过跨行业合作，促进不同行业间的资源和知识共享。

他强调了分享知识和最佳实践的重要性，以及如何通过开放和合作来推动创新。

Transcripts

good morning everyone today i'm here

with frank o'connor who is the director

of global design

agency anish it was created uh

to create value and design for

sustainability and circularity

he has been a industry leader in

circular economy

for 30 plus years with specialized

experience in government policy

business practice education for eco

design

and overall sustainable and circular

economy

development it is an absolute pleasure

to welcome here today

in addition to all of his expertise he

founded and led the award-winning eco

design center

in 2006 and it's my absolute pleasure to

welcome him so without further ado

um frank welcome i'm really excited to

talk to you about circularity

and sustainability and get this

conversation going thank you madison and

thanks very much for the invitation i'm

delighted to be here

speaking to you today great i wanted to

just jump in here and kind of allow you

to share

what you're doing on a day-to-day basis

and with that

i would like to know what really is the

mission of a niche

yes so um it's very much a system design

perspective

myself my partner jude cherry we set it

up a number of years ago

it was very much based on our combined

experience of looking at sustainability

over the last 20 30 years like i set out

in the late

80s uh calling for a circle economy in

ireland in my

uh similar thesis in 1989 so it was very

much

what we realized over time there was a

lot of interesting work happening

in isolation but someone needed to very

much take a systems lens so what we've

done with a niche

is very much uh setting strategy with

organizations around the idea bringing

the value chain supply chain

the brand the product packaging and the

business model together

so very much helping organizations to

see the bigger picture

how the different connections work and

then which with that setting a strategy

that really embeds sustainability

circularity and responsibility

right across the entire value chain

that's amazing i think it's very

important and something that we also

stand by at ica is the idea of

looking at all the pieces along the

supply chain and that bigger picture

like you just mentioned

and then going back and figuring out

important strategies to really help

you know the industries and understand

what we can do to make these

transformations

and i think you know i want to talk to

you now about how are you currently

transforming the supply chain space uh

you know business space

to be more circular and you know maybe

if you'd like

you can touch upon your expertise

currently but also your past

experience with unito and the european

commission as well because i know that

over the past 30 years you've continued

to be a leader in this industry

so your experience you know is

really really wide and i'd like to get

your opinion on what you're currently

doing and

maybe some things in your past that

you've also done

great yeah well what i'll do is i'll

kind of give you a quick journey through

how i've come to this point and i think

it helps set the context

very much for what we're about at the

moment like when i set out

back in 1988 when i started my first

project

it was very very much a focus around

waste a recognition that we were

producing a lot

of waste and uh what i set out to do was

to understand why we were producing all

this waste and why it wasn't being

recognized as being a resource

and so that's when i called originally

for what i called a closed loop economy

back in the

80s which is very much evolved now into

the circle economy

it was it was a waste focus initially

and then i ended up working

doing a masters on design and ended up

working

in design within the japanese company

where i started to look at

how we could design out the waste

and turn it into resource instead of

looking at things like design

for recycling or design for repair

and so that was the early 90s and and so

around that time i worked with a lot of

the big i suppose global players like

apple

compact dell ibm microsoft and it was

around the idea that if we design it

right from the onset

the waste shouldn't be an issue but then

as i realized as the

as the decade went on i was doing a phd

between 95 and

and 2000 cell phone the phd and

multi-stakeholder life cycle

and i suppose techniques for design and

when i was doing that kind of

research in parallel i realized that a

lot of the design effort that we put in

in the early 90s

was not wasted wasn't fully thought out

so we were kind of learned about waste

being a resource and then i sort of

recognized you could design things

differently like recyclable repairable

but what i hadn't considered in the

early 90s was

the business model to go with it and so

i started working with a

consulting a japanese company in the

late 90s and they

they employed me to look at how they

could bring the products

back into life but not just recycle them

but bring them back into the market as

refurbished

we manufactured product and that's when

i began to recognize the business model

element was key as well

so you got your waste is resource you've

got your design

approaches and techniques and then you

got this business model to go with it

and so around the early zero zeros i was

working a lot with

companies who were producing what was

considered more eco-sustainable products

but also what they were doing is maybe

not really connecting that fully with

the design

rules that had been set in the past for

quality but also

there was a lack of understanding around

the value of the brand so i started to

connect more and more i suppose around

the early zero zeros the importance of

having an ethical brand

to match with that circular business

model that would go with that

sustainable eco design

and uh and and still keeping that

mindset that any waste is actually a

resource and it's very much a design

flaw

if it becomes a waste because there

should be always some way to connect it

back

now in parallel i suppose with that

you've got this kind of journey where

you go from

discussions in the 80s around closed

loop economy

and industrial ecology late 80s early

90s

and then you're moving very much into

the kind of

conversations around i suppose

industrial symbiosis obviously there's

an element of that but very much

around what is sustainable development

and then leading into that you have the

kind of whole

cradle the cradle movement coming into

zero zeros

and then that led to social economy but

as all of these kind of

economic discussions were happening i

suppose in parallel i was actually

working with different businesses and

realizing

very much that you had to take a systems

perspective so when i set up

what became a quite you know well-known

international research center and

i set up the ecosystem center in 2006

that was very much to bring those

connections together

to understand how systems worked but

through helix collaboration

so basically when i finished my phd i

kind of proved thesis that you needed to

develop multiple lifecycle products and

you needed to do that by

multi-stakeholder collaboration

along the value chain so i engage with

key value stakeholders doing my phd

and develop methodologies to do that so

when i set up the economic design center

in 2006 it was very much taking those

ideas forward

but to do so on a collaborative basis

between the public and the private

sector

so very much around the idea that we

would as an organization

fit into the middle of a triangle and

each one-sided

one one corner was government for policy

one was business in terms of

products and services and the other was

education in terms of courses

and as an organization we would move

between these and ensure the policies

fit the business

and the education gives the graduates

the right skills to go into the

companies to deliver the policies so

that was very much developing that

systems thinking element as well

around collaboration and then i carried

that forward into the

i supposed to about a decade ago where i

didn't decide that i needed to move on

to the next level where i left that

organization behind me because it was

it was something i tested and it was

working but i needed to kind of

innovate myself again and move much more

into a systems perspective

and so that's kind of leads to where we

are now where we're now in the

circular economy come bonus economy

which people are talking about but for

me

fundamentally it's still about the same

issues i'm interested in

sustainable products ethical brands

responsible value chains and circle

business models

and the idea that the four of those come

together to form a framework

for looking at any industry any sector

or any business

so myself my partner what we do is we

very much invade

obviously research international best

practices everything we do

but with a company it's very much about

making those connections so making sure

that everything you produce

it's what the business model is going to

offer it's with the value chain in terms

of where the supply comes from

and how you maintain that value and

continue beyond the single life into

multiple life

but also links back to brand values so

it's kind of um

while it's quite complicated because

it's a complex system

we also try and break it down to a level

that a business can understand

and put systems in place to actually

make it happen um so

really we asked certain questions to

complete and so that would mean that

a lot of companies aren't prepared to

have those conversations still which is

a pity but it's true

because we want everything to be trans

and transparent

we want full accountability and we want

companies to really take that system's

perspective

and so that will manifest itself true we

work with every sector from

food and drink uh to electronics to

consumer products to automotive to

furniture it's a whole mix of industries

and you mentioned briefly in terms of

the u.n and yeah i've been working with

the u.n since the um i suppose what 12

14 years at this stage possibly more and

that's been very much about

taking the thinking that me and my

various teams over the decades have been

trying out and bringing that to

developing and transition countries so

most of my work with the un is very much

working maybe

in asia africa eastern europe may be

working with latin american countries

it's very much working with

predominantly

policy makers in these countries but

also businesses as well

and some educational groups and it's

very much understanding what we're doing

in europe and also understanding what

they're doing as well and seeing what is

appropriate to transfer

and and would our policies be effective

there do you need a very different set

of policies so it's

really very much about building capacity

but not i suppose not

really forcing what we're doing because

obviously

depending on the region depending on the

sector depending on the culture

there's so many different factors you've

got to take into place but very much to

urine is very much about that shared

learning

and understanding that it's supposed to

be a responsibility to

share what we're learning in our regions

but also understand

you know i suppose the impact of what we

do what

how that impacts other parts of the

world and i suppose that's it when you

come to um

global supply chains or value chains

they you know

some products connect with most parts of

the world and then in terms of european

commission a lot of the work

um it's been again a mix of stuff but

very much around the idea of moving very

much away from just

focusing on single issues like energy

efficiency in products and buildings

to a more holistic perspective so recent

work is very much around the idea of

bringing

repair ability durability access to

spare parts

looking at much more holistic

sustainable indicators

for products and buildings and materials

in general so things like product

passports and

so i just finished a project recently uh

working with the european commission

and the chinese government particularly

looking at trade

and trade between those regions and what

that means from

each perspective whether you're a

company or policymaker or education

institute

and how we can ensure that we end up

with much more

of a multiple life cycle type i suppose

if you like value chains but also that

are fair

and socially just and you know obviously

you're not you know you've got things

like obviously employment you've got

things like

sharing the world but also very much

that impact that has on on the ecology

as well so

it's trying to bring that perspective

thank you so much for sharing it is

very fascinating just to see over these

years you know

how your role has kind of shifted but

you know at the end of the day like you

said you care about the set

set principles and whether that be you

know responsible

you know value chains and ethical

product design

think all of these things that you care

about you've found different ways to

apply that but

you're continuing to work towards that

and that holistic view is something that

really stands out to me throughout that

entire conversation and listening to you

know how you are

currently and how you have transformed

supply chain and value chains to be more

circular

and i think the idea of holistic is

really important as it kind of is

kind of a transition from just

sustainability to circularity and

accountability transparency really

taking it

to the next level and i think that

you are such an expert in this area and

this is something that i bring up with

a lot of different people i talk to in

the industry and i it's really

interesting because i always get

kind of a different perspective and my

question to you now is

after all of these different roles but

you know your common goals of

working towards the things that are

important in terms of circularity and

responsibility

what is the difference between just a

sustainable supply chain or value chain

and a circular supply chain or value

chain um you know

is it just taking it one step further or

you know

is sustainability enough or is

circularity really needed

you know and i think that at isda we our

education

program for the cssdp closes with a

chapter on circular economy because we

think that

that really is so important and you know

there's sustainable steps that you can

make along

the way of your supply chain but at the

end of the day circularity is the end

goal

you know from our understanding and so i

would like to get your opinion on that

and what really

differentiates sustainable practice from

circular practice

no it's no i mean it's very important i

mean it's an important

question um i suppose one of the things

i i would um

reflect a lot on i mean for me this has

been a

it's obviously been my career but um

it's also been my passion

i mean this is something i do because i

believe in it and

i suppose that's been reflected in my

work over the years you know i'm driven

by my motivation to change things and

when you think of things like

sustainability or circularity or

you know lots of terminology like i

mentioned earlier

you know when i started out there was

closed loops

and it was industrial ecology was

emerging

and then over the decades we've had

things like creating cradle and

performance economy and green

green economy and circular economy now

and then there's a lot of conversations

i don't know if they're happening much

and

over by you guys but in europe there's a

lot of conversations around the donors

economy which is again

just kind of like when it comes to

practical elements very much

similar to the circular economy but so

what i suppose what i would say a lot of

these sort of

terminology often can be quite trends

and they'll come and go but

like you say it's fundamentally it's

about the values behind it

and for me that's what i've kind of

maintained is that

core value system which was supposed was

embedded in me

as it happens by my parents and how i

grew up

and that was respect for i suppose

our fellow human beings and also respect

for the environment

my parents instilled that and that i

took that with me along my career

now the difference between

sustainability and circularity

i would probably view it quite

differently perhaps what you said there

is

to me circularity and i'm coming

predominantly

always from a design lens is circularity

is actually a subset of sustainable

design

so for me sustainability is

all-encompassing so you've got the

social you got the ethical

you got the environment and you got the

economic element

and the challenge with sustainability

has been

obviously because it's quite difficult

to define and agree what it is

but also the difficulty of bringing in

what what i define it and i suppose i've

been using the term for a number of

decades notice idea of true costs how

you bring in those externalities along

the entire value chain now me

circularity is very very important

but it really is a subset so like

recently i mean i say recently a couple

years ago i wrote a chapter for a book

where i looked at 25 years

of eco sort of sustainable design

within the electronic sector based in

the work i've done back in the 90s with

people like apple

and i looked at 25 years from like about

1993 to

maybe um get 25 years on from that and i

started to about

2018 and i sort of looked at what had

happened

and within that i kind of very much

framed circular

design and also you got your circular

supply chains

within the overall umbrella of

sustainability and i think that will

continue to do that so

for me circularity is very important but

a lot of circularity that i'm seeing in

practice

doesn't have the responsibility

the ethical elements embedded into it

so you can have products that are

circular and supporting supply chain

but they could still be doing damage to

the environment they could still be

damaging the people

or the environment everything produced

you know or

maybe there's other elements as well so

around energy consumption stuff so

circularity i think for me is

you know is quite narrow when in terms

of sustainability

now it's an interesting conversation

because i was based in the netherlands

up to a couple years ago and then we

moved we were looking relocated back to

ireland

in the last couple years and in the

netherlands a lot of conversations

three or four years ago was very much

around how you represented it there that

circularity is very much an advancement

of sustainability and i kind of never

really agree with that

to me so clarity is very important

but you got to put it in context the

main you got to get the

overall balance between like i say

ethics

social considerations environmental and

economic

and you've got abortion definitely you

know it's it's and it's not

well it's not easy i mean i'm doing it

over 30 years and i haven't got the

answers yet

but but you keep trying and i think it's

that true cost element you see circle

i've seen a lot of companies going down

the circular route and really what

they're doing

in many ways is just kind of and if you

like reinventing

what was before a recycling but now it's

a

circular you know but actually it's

still just recycling and i suppose the

challenge is to maintain the value of

the resources

to get get that value across the value

chain so it's a fair system

but also ensure that it's somehow

um obviously got the ethical elements as

well

so yeah so for me it's very much i think

that's super interesting because like

you said

you know you're in the netherlands and

you that's how it was presented to you

as

you know circularity was an advancement

of sustainability

and i think that's why i like to you

know ask everyone that i get to the

privilege of speaking with you know

their opinion on this because i think it

is very

dependent on where you are in the world

i think there's different

philosophies you know and i it's great

that you know everyone in this industry

like you said you know you've

kind of taken your career and you're

really passionate about this and i think

that

um at the end of the day we want to have

both you know

why not be sustainable and circular

because you know that covers both bases

um you know like like you just talked

about the importance of having ethical

practices

we want to make sure that one or the

other doesn't exclude those

practices you know in terms of right so

really it's just it sounds like such a

simple question

but it's something that is taken very

differently from you know

experts around the world and i think

it's a very interesting conversation

but at the end of the day like you're

saying it doesn't really the terminology

is

doesn't really matter it's that we want

to nail these practices down and

make sure that we're being accountable

in terms of business accountability

environmental accountability you know

transparency

ethical you know actions value chain

everything in that sphere the terminal

terminology is one thing but it's our

actions that are really the most

important absolutely and

i suppose one of the things i looked at

when i did that kind of 25-year study

i mean i realized a lot of the practices

that we were doing back in the 90s

they're still as relevant as today you

know so

you know that there was a lot of design

development solutions

tools techniques about in the early 90s

and i was involved with i was looking to

be involved with that kind of period

but there still is applicable no but

they might be called something else

and if you also because i suppose i've

always looked at design globally for

over 20 years

if you go for example to china or you go

to

europe or you go to the us you'll

probably find

that in china they'll call it

green design in europe they'll probably

call it

eco design in parts north america

they'll probably call it design for the

environment

and they'll probably if you sit down

with the different stakeholders you'll

probably find that they're all really

referring to the same thing now there

will be always some differences to

culturally as well

and that's kind of like the project we

were walking recently with china it was

really interesting because we were

sitting down with

policy makers businesses in china and we

were kind of bringing the european

perspective and that kind of

how you define it sometimes can actually

make it more difficult to progress and i

suppose i've always tried to bring it

back to

i was very lucky my first company that i

worked with my first major company that

i work because i work with smaller

companies but the first major company

was a japanese company

who basically instilled good practice

of value chains of manufacturing

no waste everything was value and you're

into your brilliant training for my

point of view from day one

and um so i kind of took that idea

forward that

if you're designing it's good design if

i call it sustainable you call it

circular

fine but what we're both trying to do is

we're both trying to get the

maximum return for for the customer but

also making sure we're having minimal

damage on the planet and we're making

sure that the

materials that we use could be around

for future generations so you've got

for me and i suppose the conversation we

have with businesses

always goes back to the business values

what are those exactly

what are the values because it's how you

take those values and that's why a lot

of times medicine

you know when you work with certain

businesses they get uncomfortable

they're like oh i don't want to talk

about this element but actually this is

the fundamental element

you know that's why i know i watched

some of your previous interviews and

discussions and

i know patagonia has come up a few times

and um

yeah patagonia is one of those

interesting companies that manages to

have those conversations about values

you know and puts them out there

and also i suppose what we always

encourage to do is

it's very hard to try and be perfect

because it's a complex system but

do as best you can but be honest and be

opened

tell your customers and your

stakeholders this is how far i've got

yes it's not ideal but i'm trying to get

to the next stage and tell them how

you're trying to get the next stage and

i always think like

companies like patagonia it's their

honesty

it's what you buy into you buy into the

fact that you they say

what they do on the team and they'll do

their best to make it the best product

and they'll provide the best service

and if they make a mistake they'll put

their hands out there and say yes we've

made a mistake

and it's because that is is the key to

us

and uh you know i suppose um

you know like um that's that's

challenging for like homies maybe

there's a fear element and i can

understand why you know

it's such a competitive global markets

and stuff but ultimately

we need more of those patagonias telling

it

as it is you know to really begin to

disrupt

the global market and it will take time

for sure i hear you on that and i think

that

you know we talk about that terminology

it's the end of the day it's just the

terminology and it's going to change

with time and place but

to communicate these practices and to

really inspire these companies to make

transformations

it is kind of the way in which we have

to speak to them um to educate them

using these terms so as much as

you know people like you and me in the

sustainability sphere

are like the term isn't really that

important it's the practice and it's the

transparency behind the term

um you know it is a way to communicate

between the sustainability and the

business sector so

at the end of the day we really need to

you know continue to work towards those

type of things and i think that

like you said you know talking about

giving the example of patagonia you know

they're a great example of someone that

continues to be

transparent and accountable and um it's

you know very supportive of

their hard work um and i i guess i'm

gonna shift gears just a little

bit here and move on to kind of the idea

of

what you think the most important

sustainable practices are

to minimize gaps in circular supply

chain and

maybe you can touch upon the importance

of collaboration

and the creation of strategy with

stakeholders um i know that's something

you're definitely an expert in you know

we've talked you've talked about

stakeholders and

um the idea of having a really designed

strategy to

kind of combat these

efficiencies yeah and that's you know i

suppose

something i i suppose what i learned

early on in my career by making mistakes

like i said we

the first flagship project i was

involved with which was

a computer keyboard we designed it

as a team to be recyclable and

this is to disassemble it to recycle it

and then some years later i went to the

recycling company and found that they

weren't

taking it apart they were actually

shredding it and that was kind of a

you know real lesson to me was the

reason they weren't

taking it apart like we expected was

there wasn't the value in it for them it

was more value to shred it

and turn it into fluff and i suppose you

know that's kind of

shows very much that need to have that

conversation up front and so my phd was

very much about

how can you have those often

conversations

if i design here in my studio in

isolation

you know it might be a nice functional

product but really would it be

appropriate for the value chain and i

think

collaboration is ultimately key and it's

how you get

you know if you've got a design in

mindset for the customer which has

always been the

obviously focus of design but also it's

got to be

for transport distribution it's got to

be

for maybe the service industry packaging

for for beyond the customer maybe take

back reuse remanufacturing so it's kind

of that

wider what i would call multiple

stakeholder perspective

how you get their input around the table

at the early stage of design and then

you link that to the business model

i mean that's ultimately seems to be the

big challenge since

still i mean i'm still talking to large

global businesses

who already know i suppose after

conversation go oh okay

like they're gonna come to us with a

design problem

and they'll go away with a business

model problem

because we'll say look guys the design

is not the issue here

it's the business model and the business

model requires

much broader conversations and it

requires you to

know from the outset what's going to

happen to your product beyond that two

years of use

and if you really want to keep those

materials in circulation

you might decide not to sell it you

might decide to lease it

and if you decide to lease it then you

know you might decide to bring it back

and if you decide to bring it back then

you might decide to design it

in such a way that it's far more modular

and those modules can easily be service

repaired or replaced

maybe it's the aesthetic cover on the

outside whatever it is

but it's a different mindset of thinking

and that requires a far more extensive

form of collaboration

so it's it's a collaboration that really

i think

pushes the boundaries for businesses in

terms of

trust and two-way dialogue because i

suppose a lot of supply chain stuff has

been very much

forced on the lower tiers you got to do

this because

you know we need you to do this but

really this type of

i suppose fully sustainable software

system

requires a much more of a dialogue and i

suppose for us we're still finding that

is that you know people say oh we need a

lot of new design solutions well

actually

a lot of the design tools and techniques

and methods for for disassembly repair

etc

they are there for quite a while okay

not more is that link

to the business model and then somehow

to ensure that it goes across the value

chain and uh so a lot of our

conversations like i say is um

we actually end up not having the

clients because we go away and say

that's not your problem your problem is

a different problem

and they go oh god i didn't think of

that before and you have this

conversation and then they go away

and they have to come back when they're

ready but they're like i said it could

be that they have to speak to different

people

maybe they have to start out themselves

i mean i have had businesses

who've come specifically to help for me

to help them

design products to be recycled and i've

said no

and they got frustrated in fact it was a

business that i ended up

speaking for quite a few months to all

the senior managers

that i'd have them around the table they

don't listen to me for hours which was

quite unusual

but i would never do what they wanted me

to do and eventually

they agreed to go with what i was saying

was basically what i was saying is you

need to look

at your entire value chain forest and

understand

that if you design that particular

product to be disassembled

it's never going to be disassembled so

you're going to waste your design time

you're going to put all these little

techniques in but no one's ever going to

take it apart

and so when we mapped out them what we

found was

that actually they were using a material

in their product

which was a rare or critical rare

material

and they hadn't realized how rare it was

and they also hadn't realized that at

the time

the chinese government had bought up a

lot of business and brought up a lot of

processing capacity for that material so

anyway long story short

the problem that businesses sometimes

think they have is not the problem

and that's where you would not expose

you know come in a lot of ways and go

okay bounce it over to us and that's why

we have a session now where we do like a

one-hour session with businesses which

is like

just basically intense one hour they

throw all the problems at us and we kind

of bounce out these bathrooms

that works quite well you know i mean

for us sometimes it means that we

probably won't get as many clients

because we're actually pushing back

stuff to them saying look you got to

start this stuff out for us

yeah you you know for sure and i think

you've definitely brought up so many

different points

just within that and the idea that you

know strategy is

like something earlier you talked about

the word holistic and

um something at isda we also talk about

it

our sustainable supply chain courses

developed in mind

the chapters build upon each other you

know it's important that you take a step

back and look at the entire process

because sometimes like you're saying um

you know one person might think they

have a certain issue

but it's actually derived from something

way earlier on in the value chain or

a practice that they should also work on

as well and i think

that's really you know what you're

talking about here is the idea of

again that a holistic view and that

creation of strategy that

is taking everything into mind and you

know it at first it might seem like a

lot but at the end of the day

there is ways to find you know

profitability and maintain the business

model

while still making these changes and

it's just a shift in mindset

and looking at it in a different way

perhaps and that's you know where

you can come in and really help these

corporations and these industries

understand

the most important and the most

sustainable ways about going about

making these changes

definitely definitely that's a ja and

that's it it's very much i suppose

you know combined with like over 50

years that's what we do is like say you

kind of

best way companies can use this a lot of

times it's like a sounding board a

critical board someone can just bounce

over to us and say

what you think and like you say it's a

lot of times

it's not what businesses expect you know

they're not because i suppose

because we were us as a business we were

set up with a very strong

we're both i suppose big into the

ethical aspect of business and

um so our business that's our

foundational values so how we work with

other people is we're not necessarily

looking to generate work we're looking

to provide solutions for companies to

make a difference so

it's quite a different approach so we

don't want clients to be dependent on us

we want

clients to be independent you know

interdependent to certain extent with us

and other stakeholders that they're

constantly involved in learning

but it's like we what we want to do is

build their capacity but also like say

it's asking the right

i mean a lot of this medicine really is

asking the right questions you know

yeah it's that idea of you know sharing

the body of knowledge and collaborating

in that sense as well

it's you know for you you know giving

you helping

industry understand solutions and uh

creating

strategy and design that they can then

take and become independent and

hopefully

continue to use on a day-to-day basis in

their value chain operations their

supply chain practices

similar to us you know we we hope that

they take the education from our courses

and they go out there and really

start to implement these changes at the

end of the day that's you know what we

both want in the sustainable spheres

to actually help people understand it's

you know

for a while it's like why are we hiding

you know all of this knowledge you know

let's get it out there and see what

people

can do because at the end of the day i

really think maybe i have a positive

outlook on this but i'm optimistic in

the sense that

you know when people know better they

hopefully will start to

do a little bit better and it's always a

step in the right direction and

you know if we aren't out here trying to

stress the importance of collaboration

and creation of eco design strategies

and so forth you know we really aren't

doing our best and i think that it's

something that

you've shown you know at the end of the

day you really just you're passionate

about this and you want to make those

changes

you know regardless of industry i think

it's something that

definitely shines throughout this

conversation um

and i think you know just to wrap up

here we've talked about so many great

things and

uh i want to get your just your last

take on

how can we connect you know individual

sustainable supply chains you know

supply chains that are sustainable in

themselves you know correct maybe you

work with

one one industry and they have you know

really

narrowed down their practices and

they're being ethical they've maintained

their circularity

etc etc but how can we connect those

individual

independent supply chains to the overall

idea of a circular economy or a

sustainable economy

you know should how important is that

industries are intertwined

and or should they remain you know

circular or independent with themselves

well i suppose no it's a good question a

complicated question really but

it's interesting because over the years

what i've

found and i've done a lot of um

cross-sector type

and knowledge sharing and capacity

building and what i mean by that is i've

developed a lot of programs for uh i

suppose national international programs

to develop businesses and around those

i've usually built in the idea that if

you have different sectors talking to

each other

you can learn a lot so the past i would

have got like

maybe food and drink chatting the

furniture uh

chatting to solar technology maybe or

you know my

heavy manufacturing or whatever and i

found that

you could get a lot by bringing

different sectors together because

actually

they wouldn't feel like they're in

competition with each other so they're

automatically more open

but also there's a lot of sharing and

knowledge around how they manage their

supply chain or their business model or

whatever so on that level

i think bringing these different sectors

together makes a lot of sense because

what i found was we managed to bring a

lot of knowledge sharing

across different sectors so in other

words even if a company was already

pretty good

they could learn a lot from another

company maybe it's something small maybe

something big so that

i think is very important and then i

suppose

you know it's i suppose it's hard to

force companies to go to do it anything

is in the day they're all really busy

and stuff but i suppose

it is the kind of holy grail in many

ways is how you can kind of

get them to keep engaging and making

their supply chains better

um i'm not really sure other than

um you know because there's a lot of

focus on

um maybe kind of carrot or stick

how do you get companies to change do

you have to force them to exchange or do

you have to

incentivize them and i'm guessing from

experience over the last 30 years

you probably need a bit of both um but

the companies that are doing stuff good

you want those companies to

share what they're doing but like of

course you know learn from each other

it goes back to that whole collaboration

idea you know maybe

there's two different corporations in

different industries and they're

producing different things but

the values and the principles behind

their value chains and their supply

chains they are parallel in a sense that

they're both ethically maintained and

they're being you know transparent about

their practices those are things you

know shared knowledge

like yourself you're talking about here

and you know

potentially i think something

interesting we can talk about maybe you

know

for example the idea of product design

and maybe there's a piece of your

product that you can't

circle back into your value chain but

maybe a different industry could use

that spare part

absolutely absolutely i mean we had some

really interesting collaborations over

the years i mean

i suppose much more than expected you

know bringing these different companies

together in different programs

and uh yeah it's been amazing you know

like you said it could be something like

a tangible component or material

but it might be just knowledge of how

you deal with supplier how you educate

suppliers in terms of

sustainability absolutely you know

they've been

those discussions have been extremely

rich whereas i found when you bring

four or five companies together from the

same sector

they're a bit fearful i guess because of

maybe they see them as competition

and you know but they open up their

doors they take them around the factory

run production and they share so much

stuff and even the companies i've found

over the years that i've done the

programs with

they were maybe a bit skeptical issue

like what are we going to listen to what

are we going to learn about

from a disabled sector but then they're

like oh i'm so enthusiastic

and then when the program finishes the

companies end up maintaining the

relationship

because they're realizing that you know

we're all in beginning today we're all

in the same

similar journey we're all trying to do

the right thing i mean most people out

there

you know are trying to do the right

thing sometimes it's just we don't have

the tools and knowledge or

our capacity to do it and it's a lot of

times we just follow

that we follow the skills but people

have good intentions and

uh it's how you i suppose the challenge

over the years has always been how you

make it as

easy as possible to bring those

connections together and

again there's no holy grail but you just

have to keep trying stuff but definitely

madison bringing different companies

from different sectors together i found

it

to be a very rich experience for

everyone for sure and at the end of the

day you know

something you can grow and we're all

taking from the same planet

so you only have one we all originating

from the same

you know source of resources and you

know if you're creating something from a

finite resource stock

regardless of the industry there's a

need to work together to

you know find a better solution and you

know

i think it'd be very interesting to have

a conversation later on and just

the surprising amount of partnerships

like you talked about i would love to

hear more about that maybe at a later

time

on you know for example what industries

are you know taking spare parts from

each other and how are these

um supply chains becoming intertwined i

think that would be a very interesting

topic for them

exactly and i suppose i've always had

this idea i suppose i'm an idealist you

know i believe

anything is possible i've always

believed that so i think change is

always possible

that's why i'm so passionate now as i

would have been 30 years ago because

i've always believed we can change

things but i suppose

around that i've also had this idea that

this is an abundance

so that the more you can let go the more

it frees you up to bring in new

knowledge so my

idea from the outset has always been

about the more i learn about stuff

the more i give it away it's been my

work with my clients and my friends and

my networks

and it's the same i find on this kind of

sustainability level

if you give out your ideas about what

you're doing

and people going well actually people

are going to be able to compete no that

frees you up

to innovate to the next level you know

and that's the way my career is

you know it's really at the end of the

day mindset and you know

like i said before being optimistic you

know in a

in a place that can seem overwhelming

it's a space that for a lot of

industries is new to them but it's

people like you that continue to work

hard over these past 30 plus years and

you know make it easy for corporations

to understand and really implement these

changes and

thank you you know i thank you so much

for being here with us today and sharing

your optimism and your passion

um it definitely goes without being said

i walk away from this conversation

with the ideas that you know for you

traceability and ethical practices as

well as value chain responsibility is

also important and

it's it's really important that we

continue to work towards these practices

and

you know 30 plus years of expertise

is phenomenal and you know i really

appreciate your time today and getting

the opportunity to speak with you and i

i could see us you know talking in the

future again about these

interesting partnerships and how you're

continuing to transform this space

great well thanks a million looks a

pleasure to chat to you madison and

uh look the best to look with everything

and uh yeah look forward to chatting in

the future hopefully

a nice one yeah great thank you so much

thank you madison

you