Drake vs Kendrick: The biggest rap beef of all time? - The Global Story podcast, BBC World Service

Summary

In this episode of The Global Story by BBC World Service, Sumi Somaskanda explores the intense rap feud between Drake and Kendrick Lamar, a battle that has captivated music enthusiasts and sparked debates on social media. The discussion features Kenny Allstar from BBC Radio 1xtra and Carl Lamarre from Billboard Magazine, who provide insights into the origins of the conflict, its escalation, and the impact on hip-hop culture. They dissect the lyrics, the personal attacks, and the competitive nature of the rap industry, comparing this feud to historical rap battles like Jay-Z vs. Nas and Tupac vs. Biggie. The conversation also touches on the potential end of the feud and its implications for the artists' legacies, concluding with a reflection on the art of rap and the importance of appreciating the moment.

Takeaways

• 🎤 The script discusses a rap feud between Drake and Kendrick Lamar that has captivated music bloggers and mainstream media.
• 🔍 The feud has been ongoing for some time, with fans closely following the lyrical exchanges between the two artists.
• 🤔 There is speculation about whether the feud is over and if it will be remembered as the biggest rap feud of all time.
• 📢 The conversation features Kenny Allstar, presenter of the rap show on BBC radio station 1xtra, and Carl Lamarre, deputy director of R&B and hip-hop at Billboard Magazine.
• 🌟 Drake and Kendrick Lamar are described as two titans from different backgrounds in hip-hop, with Drake transitioning from acting to music and Kendrick evolving from Compton to a Grammy and Pulitzer Prize winner.
• 🔥 The feud escalated with explicit tracks and lyrics, including Kendrick's 'Like That' and Drake's 'First Person Shooter' featuring J. Cole.
• 📈 The rapid exchange of diss tracks between Drake and Kendrick Lamar is attributed to the current era's prolific music production and immediate digital distribution.
• 👥 The feud is compared to historic rap battles, such as Jay-Z vs. Nas and Tupac vs. Biggie, but noted to be more about supremacy than violent rivalry.
• 💰 Despite skeptics suggesting the feud was for financial gain, it is implied to be more ego-driven and beneficial for the culture and music.
• 🏆 Carl Lamarre believes Kendrick Lamar won the feud, while Kenny Allstar also leans towards Kendrick but notes it's a close call.
• 🎶 The script emphasizes the importance of enjoying and dissecting the art of rap, especially during significant moments like this feud.

Q & A

What is the main topic of discussion in this BBC World Service episode of The Global Story?

The main topic of discussion is the rap feud between Drake and Kendrick Lamar, exploring whether it is over and if it could be considered the biggest rap feud of all time.

Who are the two experts invited to discuss the Drake and Kendrick Lamar feud on The Global Story?

The two experts invited are Kenny Allstar, presenter of the rap show on BBC radio station 1xtra, and Carl Lamarre, Billboard Magazine's deputy director of R&B and hip-hop.

What is Carl Lamarre's relationship to Kendrick Lamar, if any?

Carl Lamarre is not related to Kendrick Lamar, but he has interviewed him and describes Kendrick as a very quiet man.

How has Drake supported UK rap music according to Kenny Allstar?

Drake has shown his support for UK rap music by extending his stay in the UK, connecting with local rappers, and attending concerts as a fan.

What significant milestone did Drake achieve that is mentioned in the script?

Drake is mentioned to have tied with Michael Jackson for the most number ones on the Hot 100.

What major achievement of Kendrick Lamar is highlighted in the script?

Kendrick Lamar is highlighted as a perennial Grammy winner with double-digit awards and a Pulitzer Prize winner.

How did the feud between Drake and Kendrick Lamar escalate according to the script?

The feud escalated when Kendrick Lamar released a track called 'Like That' where he fired shots at J. Cole and Drake, rejecting the notion of a 'big three' in rap.

What is the significance of the 'big three' narrative mentioned in the script?

The 'big three' narrative refers to a perceived ranking of the top rappers in the world, including J. Cole, Kendrick Lamar, and Drake. Kendrick rejected this narrative, asserting that there is only a 'big me'.

How did the personal nature of the feud affect the content of the tracks according to the script?

The feud became personal, with both rappers dragging women and children into the spotlight, which is a common tactic in rap battles to provoke a reaction.

What historical rap feuds are mentioned in the script for comparison?

The script mentions the feuds between Tupac and Biggie, as well as Nas and Jay-Z as historical comparisons.

What is the current status of the Drake and Kendrick Lamar feud according to the script?

The feud seems to be over, with Drake focusing on his upcoming summer music and Top Dawg, Kendrick's manager, declaring the battle over.

How does Carl Lamarre view the outcome of the feud in terms of chart success?

Carl Lamarre notes that four out of the 15 records involved in the feud made it into the Hot 100, marking an unprecedented achievement in hip-hop battles.

What is Kenny Allstar's opinion on who won the rap feud?

Kenny Allstar believes that Kendrick Lamar won the feud, but he also mentions that it was closer than many people make it out to be.

What advice does Kenny Allstar give to those interested in hip-hop?

Kenny Allstar advises people to dissect the art and enjoy the moment, emphasizing the importance of staying in the moment of greatness.

Outlines

00:00

🎤 Introduction to the Drake vs. Kendrick Lamar Rap Feud

The script opens with an introduction by Sumi Somaskanda, who sets the stage for a discussion on the rap feud between Drake and Kendrick Lamar. The feud has been a hot topic among music bloggers and news anchors, with fans eagerly following the exchange of lyrical disses. The conversation aims to determine if the feud is over and whether it will be remembered as the biggest rap feud of all time. The panel includes Kenny Allstar, presenter of the rap show on BBC radio station 1xtra, and Carl Lamarre, deputy director of R&B and hip-hop at Billboard Magazine. Both have had interactions with the artists and provide their insights into the background and significance of the feud.

05:05

🔍 Origins and Escalation of the Feud

This paragraph delves into the origins of the feud between Drake and Kendrick Lamar. It discusses how Drake's invitation for Kendrick to join his arena tour as a support act was a sign of respect, yet Kendrick was never content with being in Drake's shadow. The feud had been brewing for a while, with subliminal messages exchanged over the years. However, it wasn't until Kendrick's verse on 'Like That' with Metro Boomin and Future that the feud became overt, with Kendrick challenging the notion of a 'big three' among rappers, asserting his dominance instead.

10:11

💥 The Intensity and Impact of the Feud

The discussion continues with an analysis of the direct and intense nature of the feud, which has moved beyond subliminal jabs to explicit shots. The panelists highlight specific tracks and lyrics that have fueled the feud, noting the personal nature of the attacks and the involvement of family members. The conversation also touches on the broader implications of such feuds within the hip-hop community, referencing past rivalries like those between Tupac and Biggie, as well as Jay-Z and Nas, and how the current feud compares to these historical conflicts.

15:12

🏆 The Significance and Conclusion of the Drake vs. Kendrick Lamar Feud

In this segment, the conversation turns to the significance of the feud in the context of hip-hop culture and its potential impact on the artists' careers. The panelists compare the current feud to past battles, noting the rapid exchange of diss tracks facilitated by modern technology and social media. They also address the high stakes involved, as both artists are at the top of their game and are unwilling to be seen as losing the battle. The discussion concludes with speculation on whether the feud is over, with indications that it may be, as both Drake and Kendrick's camps suggest a move towards focusing on their music rather than the feud.

🎉 Final Thoughts on the Feud and Its Legacy

The final paragraph wraps up the discussion with reflections on the feud's legacy and its impact on the music industry. The panelists consider the financial and cultural implications, noting that despite the intense rivalry, both artists have seen success in their music charts and streaming numbers. They also share their personal views on the outcome of the feud, with a consensus that Kendrick Lamar has emerged as the winner, although the margin of victory is debated. The conversation ends on a note that encourages listeners to appreciate the art and the moment, suggesting that the feud has enriched the hip-hop culture.

Keywords

💡Drake

Drake is a Canadian rapper, singer, and actor who first gained fame for his role on the television series 'Degrassi: The Next Generation' before transitioning into a highly successful music career. In the context of the video, Drake is one of the central figures in a rap feud being discussed, highlighting his significance in the hip-hop community and the ongoing narrative of competition and rivalry among artists.

💡Kendrick Lamar

Kendrick Lamar is an acclaimed American rapper and songwriter known for his deep lyrical content and storytelling abilities. He hails from Compton and has won multiple Grammy Awards, including a Pulitzer Prize for his album 'DAMN.' In the video, Kendrick Lamar is portrayed as a rival to Drake in a rap feud, emphasizing his status as a leading figure in contemporary hip-hop and his competitive spirit.

💡Rap Feud

A rap feud refers to a conflict between rappers that is expressed through their music, often in the form of diss tracks where each artist responds to the other's lyrics. In the video, the rap feud between Drake and Kendrick Lamar is the central theme, illustrating the historical and cultural significance of such disputes in the hip-hop genre and their impact on fans and the music industry.

💡Diss Track

A diss track is a song that contains insults or criticisms directed at another artist, often as part of a feud or rivalry. In the script, diss tracks are a key element of the feud between Drake and Kendrick Lamar, serving as the battleground on which their conflict plays out and providing listeners with a window into the competitive nature of hip-hop.

💡BBC World Service

The BBC World Service is an international broadcaster that provides news, analysis, and information in multiple languages. In the video, it is the platform hosting 'The Global Story,' the program discussing the rap feud, indicating the global interest and reach of the topic and the BBC's role in covering international stories.

💡1Xtra

1Xtra is a digital radio station from the BBC that focuses on music, particularly genres like hip-hop, R&B, and grime. Kenny Allstar, mentioned in the script, is a presenter of the rap show on 1Xtra, linking the station to the broader discussion of rap music and its cultural impact.

💡Billboard Magazine

Billboard Magazine is a well-known publication that covers the music industry, including news, video, and music rankings. Carl Lamarre, the deputy director of R&B and hip-hop at Billboard, contributes to the discussion in the video, providing expert insights into the rap feud and its implications for the music industry.

💡Hot 100

The Hot 100 is a chart that ranks the most popular songs in the United States, published by Billboard Magazine. In the script, the Hot 100 is mentioned to highlight the commercial success of Drake and Kendrick Lamar, as well as the impact of their feud on the music charts.

💡Pulitzer Prize

The Pulitzer Prize is an award for achievements in newspaper, magazine, and online journalism, literature, and musical composition in the United States. Kendrick Lamar is noted in the script as a Pulitzer Prize winner, underscoring his artistic achievements and the recognition of his work beyond the realm of popular music.

💡Subliminal Messages

Subliminal messages in music refer to hidden or indirect references and critiques aimed at another artist, often within the lyrics of a song. In the video, the concept of subliminal messages is discussed in relation to the long-standing rivalry between Drake and Kendrick Lamar, indicating a subtle form of communication within their feud.

💡Ego

Ego, in the context of the video, refers to the personal pride and self-importance of the artists involved in the rap feud. The discussion suggests that the conflict between Drake and Kendrick Lamar may be driven by ego, as both artists seek to assert their dominance and superiority in the hip-hop community.

Highlights

Drake and Kendrick Lamar's rap feud has captured the attention of music bloggers and mainstream media.

Fans have been closely following the lyrical disses exchanged between the two artists.

The feud's intensity has raised questions about whether it's the biggest rap feud of all time.

Kenny Allstar, presenter of the rap show on BBC radio station 1xtra, and Carl Lamarre, deputy director of R&B and hip-hop at Billboard Magazine, discuss the feud.

Drake's transition from actor to musician in 2009 with the release of his mixtape 'So Far Gone'.

Kendrick Lamar's background and rise to fame, including his Grammy wins and Pulitzer Prize.

The historical context of rap feuds, including the Tupac and Biggie rivalry.

The beginning of Drake and Kendrick's feud, with subliminal messages and competitive spirit.

Drake's invitation to Kendrick to join his arena tour, indicating respect for Kendrick's talent.

Kendrick's refusal to be overshadowed and his assertion of being the top rapper on tracks like 'Like That'.

The rapid exchange of diss tracks between Drake and Kendrick, facilitated by modern technology and platforms.

The personal nature of the feud, with references to family and personal relationships.

The impact of the feud on the mainstream audience and the music industry.

The potential end of the feud, with statements from Drake and Kendrick's manager suggesting a resolution.

The financial implications of the feud, with both artists benefiting from increased streams and chart placements.

The cultural significance of the feud and its comparison to historical rap battles.

The personal opinions of Kenny and Carl on who won the rap feud.

A call to enjoy and appreciate the art and moment of the rap feud.

Transcripts

Hi, I'm Sumi Somaskanda. For the BBC  World Service, this is The Global Story. 

Over recent months, a bitter battle between  rappers Drake and Kendrick Lamar has niche  

music bloggers and mainstream news  anchors, like myself, in a tizzy. 

And fans have been following  their furious lyrical disses,  

one or sometimes two tracks at a time. Now  things have gone quiet, so today we're asking,  

is it over? And when the dust settles will this  be considered the biggest rap feud of all time?

I have two savants on this subject to  talk about it with me today. First off  

the presenter of the rap show on the  BBC radio station 1xtra Kenny Allstar. 

Glad to be here. And Billboard Magazine's deputy director  

of R&B and hip-hop, Carl Lamarre. How you doing? 

Great to have you both. And Carl, I know you hear  this all the time, I've got to ask it for the  

record. No relation to Kendrick Lamar? No relation to Kendrick Lamar. 

You have interviewed Kendrick though. He is a very quiet, quiet man, which,  

you know, we'll speak about it in depth why  this battle him just having is coming out  

party and proving why he's rap's Boogeyman  just made this battle even more impressive. 

Kenny, have you had the opportunity  to speak to either Drake or Kendrick? 

Drake is a big advocate of UK rap music.  Every time he comes over to the UK,  

it feels like he's not just here for like a week.  He extends his stay. He connects with a lot of  

the rappers over here. And I've been in one of two  functions with him, when he's at another rapper's  

headline show or concert and he's in the crowd  just watching as a fan. So yeah, I've had the  

pleasure of meeting Drake a couple of times, never  met Kendrick in the flesh, unfortunately though. 

That's still pretty cool. I think, you  know, for most people who are listening,  

they probably know who Drake and Kendrick are.  But just take us back, both of you. Just give us  

an idea of who these two megastars are. I will start with Drake, you know,  

obviously some people may know him first as  an actor from Degrassi, but then he made that  

transition I'm gonna say fully around 2009,  successfully I should say actually, when he  

released his mixtape So Far Gone in February 2009.  And he just catapulted into superstardom. And,  

you know, he's been at the forefront of not  just hip-hop, but music the last 15 years.  

He's tied with Michael Jackson for most number  ones on the Hot 100. And then Kendrick Lamar,  

way different background coming up from Compton.  Had a lot of co-signs coming up. He just evolved  

into a perennial Grammy winner, double digits  under his belt and he's also a Pulitzer Prize  

winner. So we were able to really get two titans,  two heavyweights from two different sides of the  

scope and spectrum in hip-hop to collide in  a once in a lifetime kind of dream match. 

I mean, maybe I'm unlucky to be that old, but I  was lucky enough to live through the Tupac and  

Biggie feud and also Nas and Jay. And I didn't  think we would see another one this big, but  

that looks like where we are. So let's just jump  right into it. Kenny, how did this start? I mean,  

this feud's been going on for some time,  but how did it really boil up again? 

Drake brought Kendrick to his first proper arena  tour as a support act. And from that moment,  

I find that interesting because that shows  that Drake respected Kendrick as an artist,  

as a rapper, and as a peer. But I've always felt  like if you listen to Kendrick at that time,  

Kendrick was never content with being in anyone  else's shadow. For a good part of the last decade,  

there has been these subliminal messages, but it's  only until maybe last year, October the sixth,  

For All The Dogs, Drake finally drops his eagerly  anticipated album. There's a track on that album  

called First Person Shooter alongside J. Cole. And  in that track, J. Cole mentions about big three,  

you know, big three, who's the top three big  rappers in the world? J. Cole, Kendrick, Drake. 

That was a narrative that Kendrick wasn't  subscribing to. And he followed up on that  

months later, I want to say it was March, when  he teamed up with Metro Boomin and Future on  

their chart topping record Like That. And that's  when shots just, Kendrick just let off a round  

and just started firing at J. Cole and Drake  and saying, you know, Kenny, you already  

know there's no big three. It's just big me. Kendrick not wanting to play second fiddle. I  

mean, do you think that's where it started? Can  you say that Kendrick really started this feud? 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you look at it,  you know, as Kenny said, Drake had such a strong  

liking for Kendrick to where he featured him on  Take Care, where he gave Kendrick the platform  

to be featured on The Buried Alive Interlude.  And Kendrick returned the favour and featured  

Drake on Poetic Justice, but still what a  lot of people fail to realise with hip-hop,  

it is such a competitive bloodsport in  the sense that everybody wants the title,  

everybody wants to be the crown holder. So while  Kendrick does have love and respect for his peers,  

he made it be known on that control verse in 2013:  'Guys, I love y 'all, but I'm a murder y'all'. 

When he says, 'it's time to take a  sensitive rapper out of his pyjama clothes'. 

Yep. And essentially the running theme, there was a few  

interviews after that Drake done. Drake basically  denounced it and said, you know, I'm here to make  

music that lives on, not just for the moment. I'm  here to make music that lives on, timeless music.  

So essentially, even in that interview, Drake's  kind of taking a shot at that saying, well, yeah,  

that was great for the moment. You stopped hip  hop for for the moment, but I'm still making  

these hit records. After that interview, Nothing  Was The Same came out, which Drake scored another  

number one and there were suggested subliminals  to where he took a shot at Kendrick, which was  

on The Language, when he hinted at his music not  being as inspiring. So to Kenny's point, you know,  

for over a decade, they were trading subliminals,  but nothing direct up until Kendrick took his  

shots this year on the Like That record. And I  think it not only resonated with fans, but like in  

the hip-hop space, but mainstream, which is why I  think the blow really affected Drake, because this  

was a song that was number one for three weeks.  It's different when it's just a diss record. 

It's prolific and it's gone around the globe. I  want to come to where things stand right now. You  

talked about trading these tracks and how prolific  that's been. What about what's actually in these  

tracks? And Kenny, let's start with you because  these are not subliminal jabs anymore. This is  

really direct. Nobody's pulling punches here.  What stands out to you in what you've heard? 

Kendrick, I believe it might have been on  Euphoria, which is one of the records traded,  

where he basically alluded that there might be a  leak in the OVO camp. For those who don't know,  

OVO is the record label that Drake heads. And I  find little things like that very interesting,  

you know, because again, these are two rappers  that are not in communication with each other. And  

essentially, to outdo each other on a record, they  need to find out some information that might be,  

you know, that might be deemed as something  that can get the conversation or the general  

consensus on the side of said rapper. So I  think Kendrick said a few things like that.  

I'll be honest with you. I love hip-hop. There's  some things that were traded that I'm like,  

ah, I don't think this is gonna  sit well for a casual listener. 

I'm not the first person to make this point,  but it does seem like they get really personal  

and drag women, children in their lives right  into the spotlight. I mean, how fair is that? 

There's no rules. It's all about who can  say the most thought-provoking thing ever.  

And because we are seeing this unfold in the  internet era it's the battle of the hives,  

the fanbases, on who believes what at the end of  the day, but it's subjective on that topic. But  

honestly, if you follow some of the most iconic  back-and-forths, even if you want to go back to,  

you know, Jay-Z and Nas, they said some like  crazy things to each other then as well. 

I think for Kendrick, going into it when he  released Euphoria, it was more so just going  

to be a lyrical battle into again, Drake insisted  on pushing him and name dropping his fiancée to  

where Kendrick was saying 'ok, since we're going  to go below the belt, I'm going to play the same  

game as you and just say whatever distasteful  things come to mind and dig and dig'. And again,  

I think it's important to tell the  listeners that there's no actual proof  

on both sides that any of these allegations  that each side is spewing is, in fact, true. 

We're going to go back now, Kenny and Carl,  because you guys have both referenced this  

stacking up this beef with some of the major  beefs in the past that we've seen. So talk to  

me about how you think this one does stack up. I look at this as a Jay-Z Nas battle for the  

new generation. I was 12 when Jay-Z and  Nas collided in 2001 and Jay-Z released  

Takeover as part of his Blueprint album  which was scathing, took shots at Nas,  

took shots at Mobb Deep. Performed it at Summer  Jam, which at the time was the biggest concert  

festival in hip-hop. And he made it a point to  call out Nas because he wanted that rap supremacy.  

And we didn't get a response from Nas until three  months later, which was Ether, which came from his  

Stillmatic album in December 2001. So I want the  casual listener to understand that it took three  

months then for Nas to make a rebuttal to Jay-Z. The Ether record. We got seven back-and-forth  

exchanges between Drake and  Kendrick Lamar in seven days. 

Is that a product of these two stars being more  prolific than some of these feuds of the past,  

or is it just a question of the platforms  that they have at their disposal now? 

I think it's a combination of both. You know,  I think now we're in an era where people could  

churn out records. I mean, we've seen it  to where people are churning out albums in  

sometimes in a 24 hour period. So I think it's  just a matter of a different type of work ethic,  

not even just a work ethic, but when you look  at the advance in technology, it doesn't take  

long to mix, master and release a record. For  instance, Rick Ross, who was, I would say,  

a small part of this battle, he released his diss  record to Drake, when Drake released Push Ups and  

he addressed all of his adversaries, including  Rick Ross. Rick Ross responded two hours later. 

The reason why we had such vast responses  is because both rappers, I believe,  

acknowledge that the stakes are very high.  Nobody at that top of the mountain wants  

to be the person that looks like they suffer or  their career suffers from losing this exchange. 

You mentioned the stakes and we cannot talk about  rap beefs without talking about Tupac and Biggie,  

the East Coast-West Coast rivalry, and  you saw the stakes end as they did,  

both dying in drive-by shootings. What are  the stakes in this type of feud, if you  

look back at that beef and where we are today? From what I understand, again, I rely on people  

like Carl to also help me out on this. That was  a deeper situation because we're talking about  

East Coast versus West Coast. Now that seems  a little bit different to what we're in now. 

You both weren't old enough, but it felt  existential, it felt like it was tied into  

every other issue that the entire community  that they were addressing were facing. 

It was deeper than rap, and I think this is why  I referenced it back to Jay-Z and Nas where this  

was a battle for supremacy. This was a battle  about who's the best, who's the leader of this  

generation now and going forward versus this  being a bloody affair. I know a lot of people  

were running with the narrative, unfortunately,  because there was a shooting at Drake's house  

and tried to connect it with the beef. And I  would just want to say that's all speculation. 

Is this all over? If you follow Drake on  

social media, on his Instagram he's got this  whole narrative where it's been 20 versus 1, 

20 rappers versus just me, Drake. And he post  something on his story the other day, where it  

was like one kind of soldier versus a whole army  of people. And he says, he writes in the caption,  

'it was fun, summer next up', you know what  I'm saying? So it seems like he's diverted  

his attention to getting back to what we know. In addition, Top Dawg, so Top, Kendrick's manager,  

longtime friend, he fired a tweet last, or this  week, I think it was this week or late last week  

where he declared the battle over. I do anticipate  Drake throwing subliminals here and there,  

but as far as having this feud escalate further  than what it has or what it's been able to do now,  

I think we could put a bow on it for now and  just enjoy hopefully the summertime vibes that  

Drake has because I but I think from a mainstream  pop standpoint, I still think he's unaffected. 

Carl, what about from a money standpoint?  Because, you know, there are some sceptics  

out there who say, look, this is all just  for their bottom line, because it's been  

really good not only for the culture, the  music, but also for both of these stars. 

Yeah, you know, these guys are rich. You know, these guys are rich. I don't think this was at  

all money-driven. I think this was more  ego-based. When you look at the Hot 100  

this week, four out of the 15 records that  were included in this battle are in the Hot  

100. We have never seen anything like this from  a charting standpoint and a streaming standpoint  

when it comes to hip-hop battles. Kenny, when the dust settles,  

do you think we're going to be talking about  this as the biggest rap feud of all time? 

For me, 1,000%. I think one thing I hope that we  all do, I think we need to stay in the moment.  

We don't bask in the moment of greatness. And I  think for me, as a DJ, as a student of hip-hop,  

as someone that loves this culture, I just want  to encourage anybody that is getting into this,  

just dissect the art and enjoy the moment. To Kenny's point, when everybody is able to  

take a breather and really dissect the  music, there was not one bad record. 

You know, I'm gonna ask you  both, who won this beef? Carl. 

Kendrick Lamar, easy. My third cousin. And Kenny? 

I gotta give it to Kendrick. But, but, but  I will say it's closer than a lot of people  

make it out to be. Kenny, Carl... 

Are we allowed to ask you?  Are we allowed to ask you? 

No, you're not. (laughing) I take the fifth. Kenny, Carl, it has been really my pleasure.  

Thank you both so much. Thank you. 

Thank you for having us. Lovely to catch up with you as well,  

Carl, it's been an honour, thank you so much. Kenny, likewise, really appreciate your greatness. 

Thanks for watching us today. If you want to  listen to other episodes of The Global Story,  

just subscribe wherever you find your podcasts.  And let us know what you thought of today's  

episode in the comments below. Goodbye.