Upgrading Culture for Growth and Transformation

Summary

In the webinar titled 'Upgrading Culture for Transformation and Growth,' moderated by Laurianne McLaughlin and sponsored by HCL Software, Per Hugander, a strategic advisor and professor at Hult International Business School, discusses the importance of culture in organizational transformation. Hugander emphasizes that while a clear strategy is crucial, it is the ability to handle unforeseen challenges that often determines success. He introduces two key skills for navigating complexity: perspective-taking and psychological safety. Perspective-taking involves understanding different viewpoints to foster innovation, while psychological safety encourages team members to share ideas without fear of retribution. Hugander shares practical approaches and models to integrate these skills into an organization's culture, using the case study of Swedish Bank SEB as an example. He also addresses the challenges of implementing such cultural shifts and offers strategies to overcome skepticism and resistance within organizations.

Takeaways

• 🚀 **Culture Upgrade for Transformation**: Organizations need a culture upgrade to effectively transform or scale, as traditional structures are not equipped to handle complex challenges.
• 🤔 **Understanding Complexity**: The need for a culture upgrade arises from the complexity of challenges that organizations face during transformation or growth, which traditional decision-making processes struggle to address.
• 💡 **Key Skills for Culture**: Perspective-taking and psychological safety are identified as key skills that, when learned and ingrained in a culture, can lead to better problem-solving and decision-making.
• 🧠 **Perspective-Taking Defined**: It involves moving outside one's own viewpoint and genuinely understanding another person's perspective, including their motivations and history.
• 🔐 **Psychological Safety**: Vital for surfacing important information and ideas, it encourages team members to take interpersonal risks and share their thoughts without fear of repercussions.
• 🌐 **Influence Through Models**: Robust models are necessary to provide a structured approach to the abstract concept of culture, helping to base thinking and actions on proven frameworks.
• 📈 **Practical Application**: The case study of Swedish Bank SEB demonstrates how a skills-based approach can be used to upgrade culture, leading to innovation and recognition as a leading financial institution.
• 🔗 **Linking Skills to Outcomes**: Repeated successful outcomes from using perspective-taking and psychological safety help solidify these skills as effective tools within the organizational culture.
• 🏆 **Championing Change**: Finding a culture champion within the organization who is willing to invest time and effort in the process is crucial for successful cultural transformation.
• 📚 **Educational Resources**: Articles and research on perspective-taking, structured dialogues, and boosting psychological safety provide a foundation and depth to the skills-based approach.
• 👥 **Group Dynamics**: Effective workshops for skill development typically range from 6 to 20 participants, allowing for structured dialogue and active engagement in learning and applying the skills.

Q & A

What is the main focus of the webinar 'Upgrading Culture for Transformation and Growth'?

The webinar focuses on the importance of culture upgrade in organizations for successful transformation and growth. It discusses the need for a culture that embraces complexity, supports decision-making, problem-solving, and aligns with the organization's strategy for innovation.

Who is the key speaker of the webinar and what is his area of expertise?

The key speaker is Per Hugander, a strategic advisor and a professor of practice at Hult International Business School. His work focuses on decision-making, problem-solving, and culture, and he has been published in the Harvard Business Review, MIT Sloan Management Review, and Knowledge at Wharton.

What are the two key skills that Per Hugander emphasizes for dealing with complex challenges in organizations?

The two key skills emphasized by Per Hugander are perspective-taking and psychological safety. Perspective-taking involves understanding topics from others' viewpoints, while psychological safety is about creating an environment where people feel comfortable sharing ideas and challenges without fear of judgment or repercussions.

How does Per Hugander define 'psychological safety' in the context of organizations?

Psychological safety, as defined by Per Hugander, is the willingness to take interpersonal risks. It is vital for problem-solving and decision-making as it encourages people to challenge each other, share accurate information, and voice their ideas without fear of appearing less competent or aggressive.

What is the 'Capability Trap' as described by Nelson Repenning?

The 'Capability Trap' is a theory that suggests organizations and individuals are poor at prioritizing long-term gains over immediate costs. Even when aware of the benefits of certain practices or skills, such as psychological safety, many fail to implement them due to the immediate investment of time and effort required, despite the potential for significant future rewards.

How does Per Hugander propose to overcome the 'Capability Trap'?

To overcome the 'Capability Trap', Per Hugander suggests shortcutting the feedback loop by providing immediate benefits or a taste of the successful outcomes right at the beginning. This approach aims to keep people engaged and motivated to continue investing time and effort into developing the necessary skills.

What is the role of a 'culture champion' in the process of cultural transformation?

A 'culture champion' is a leader within the organization who is committed to investing time and effort into the cultural transformation process. This individual leads by example, drives the process within their team, and helps to maintain the momentum and interest in the training and development of new skills.

How does the concept of 'perspective-taking' differ from 'active listening'?

While active listening is a part of perspective-taking, perspective-taking goes a step further. It involves moving outside of one's own viewpoint and genuinely trying to understand the topic from another person's perspective, including their motivations, history, and experiences. Active listening, on the other hand, often occurs from within one's own frame of reference and can be limited to hearing what confirms one's existing ideas.

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What are some strategies to promote psychological safety among team members?

Strategies to promote psychological safety include practicing on less sensitive topics to get comfortable with vulnerability, framing discussions as learning questions rather than debates, and using perspective-taking as a way to foster curiosity and understanding. It's also important to create a structured environment where everyone's input is valued and where the focus is on exploring the topic rather than winning an argument.

How can leaders effectively work with other teams that have not been trained in the same skills?

Leaders can use their individual skills of perspective-taking and psychological safety when working with other teams. They can introduce the vocabulary and concepts gradually, be clear about their intentions, and model the behavior they wish to see. By being open about their approach and inviting others to understand their perspective in return, leaders can bridge the gap and foster more collaborative interactions.

What is the optimal group size for conducting a workshop on these cultural transformation skills?

The optimal group size for such workshops is between 6 to 20 people. Smaller groups of around 8 to 9 are ideal for more intimate discussions, but the process can be adapted to work with larger groups as well. The key is to maintain structure and ensure that everyone gets a chance to participate in the dialogue sessions.

How can organizations ensure that the cultural transformation process leads to tangible outcomes?

Organizations can ensure tangible outcomes by linking the new skills to successful outcomes as quickly and as often as possible. This involves applying the skills to real-world challenges, sharing stories of success, and using these examples to recruit new promoters of the cultural change. It's also important to involve skeptics in the process and convert them into believers who can advocate for the new culture.

Outlines

00:00

🌟 Introduction to the Webinar on Culture Upgrade

The webinar titled 'Upgrading Culture for Transformation and Growth' is introduced by Laurianne McLaughlin, Senior Editor, Digital, at MIT Sloan Management Review. Laurianne moderates the event sponsored by HCL Software and introduces the speaker, Per Hugander. Per, a strategic advisor and professor of practice at Hult International Business School, is recognized for his work on decision-making, problem-solving, and culture, published in prestigious business reviews. He engages with startups and contributes to the World Economic Forum. The session aims to discuss the necessity of culture upgrade for organizational transformation, influence culture through models, and a practical example using a case study of Swedish Bank SEB, highlighting its innovation-driven culture.

05:01

🧐 The Complexity of Organizational Challenges

Per Hugander delves into the concept of complexity, explaining why organizations require a culture upgrade to transform or scale effectively. He emphasizes that while strategies and roadmaps are essential 'hygiene factors' for success, they do not guarantee it. Instead, it is the unforeseen challenges and opportunities that arise during the journey which determine long-term success. Per illustrates this with a complexity matrix, showing how moving into new markets or customer segments increases uncertainty and the number of options, making it harder to reach agreement and progress. He suggests that organizations often struggle with complex challenges due to being set up to function in simpler contexts, leading to frustration and stagnation.

10:02

🤝 Key Skills for Navigating Complexity: Perspective-Taking and Psychological Safety

Per Hugander identifies 'perspective-taking' and 'psychological safety' as two critical skills necessary for navigating complex challenges within organizations. Perspective-taking involves moving away from traditional debate modes and instead engaging in sensemaking by understanding different viewpoints on a topic. This approach fosters a better understanding and leads to improved decision-making. Psychological safety, a misunderstood yet vital concept, is described as the willingness to take interpersonal risks and share vital information openly, even when it might expose one's weaknesses or challenges. Per stresses the importance of these skills not only for problem-solving and decision-making but also for fostering innovation and effective collaboration across an organization.

15:02

🌐 Infusing Key Skills into Organizational Culture

The webinar segment focuses on the infusion of psychological safety and perspective-taking into an organization's culture. Per Hugander explains that culture consists of underlying assumptions that guide behaviors without conscious thought. To change culture, one must alter these ingrained assumptions by proving through repeated success that new skills lead to better outcomes. Per advocates for a skills-focused approach, beginning with a deep dive into a single team's development rather than broad, shallow implementation. He shares his experience at SEB, where despite initial resistance, the approach led to significant cultural shifts and tangible business results.

20:04

🛠 Overcoming Resistance and The Capability Trap

Per Hugander discusses the challenges of overcoming resistance to new practices within organizations, referencing Nelson Repenning's 'The Capability Trap'. This theory highlights the difficulty organizations face in prioritizing long-term gains over immediate costs. Per shares his experience at SEB, where a skeptical senior credit officer eventually became a proponent of perspective-taking after witnessing its effectiveness in resolving a complex, long-standing strategy issue. The story illustrates the power of immediate, tangible results in overcoming skepticism and the 'capability trap', reinforcing the importance of demonstrating the benefits of new approaches early in the process.

25:08

🔗 Linking Skills to Successful Outcomes and Creating a Movement

Per Hugander outlines a strategy for integrating new skills into an organization's culture by linking them to successful outcomes. He suggests starting with a committed champion who will invest time in learning and applying the skills. The process involves structured workshops and follow-ups to build and reinforce the skills of perspective-taking and psychological safety. Per emphasizes the importance of providing opportunities for teams to experience success, which then serves as a foundation for spreading the practices throughout the organization. He advises using the experiences of believers and former skeptics to recruit new promoters of the skills, creating a cultural shift.

30:10

🎓 Training and Implementing Perspective-Taking in Organizations

Per Hugander provides insights into how to implement perspective-taking within organizations. He suggests starting with reading materials to understand the concept and then practicing it in a controlled environment. The process involves exploring different perspectives on a topic without immediately advocating one's own viewpoint. Per explains that this approach helps to move away from debates and towards a more comprehensive understanding of complex issues. He also highlights the importance of facilitating these conversations and ensuring that all team members are on board with the process.

35:13

🗣️ Encouraging Psychological Safety During Challenging Discussions

In this segment, Per Hugander discusses strategies for fostering psychological safety, especially during challenging discussions. He advises starting with less sensitive topics to help individuals become comfortable with being uncomfortable and to recalibrate their internal warning systems for risk. Per emphasizes framing discussions as learning opportunities and using vocabulary related to complex challenges to encourage contribution from all members. He also highlights the role of perspective-taking in enhancing psychological safety, as it shifts the dynamic from debate to curiosity and understanding.

40:15

🔄 Dealing with Skepticism and Cross-Team Collaboration

Per Hugander addresses the issue of skepticism and how to approach cross-team collaboration when not all teams have been trained in the new skills. He suggests using individual skills and vocabulary to introduce the concepts in other situations. Per provides a strategy for engaging with other teams by clearly stating the intention to understand their perspectives and inviting them to understand yours. He also advises against introducing these skills in short workshops with skeptics, as it may lead to misconceptions and resistance. Instead, he recommends longer workshops to allow skeptics to fully experience the benefits of the new practices.

45:15

📚 Final Thoughts and Recommendations

In the closing part of the webinar, Per Hugander offers final advice on dealing with skeptics by focusing on selling the benefits and avoiding short workshops that may lead to misunderstandings. He encourages providing opportunities for skeptics to experience the value of the practices through extended engagements. Per also discusses the optimal group size for workshops, suggesting that while larger groups can be managed, sizes between 6 to 20 people are more effective. He thanks the audience for their participation and the sponsor, HCL Software, for their support.

Keywords

💡Webinar

A webinar is an online seminar or workshop that is conducted over the internet. In the context of the video, it is the medium through which the discussion on 'Upgrading Culture for Transformation and Growth' is being held, allowing participants to engage and learn remotely.

💡Culture Upgrade

Culture upgrade refers to the process of evolving or transforming an organization's culture to better align with its strategic goals, enhance innovation, and support growth. In the video, it is the central theme where the speaker discusses the importance of culture in organizational transformation.

💡Perspective-Taking

Perspective-taking is the skill of putting oneself in another person's position to understand their feelings, thoughts, and motivations. It is highlighted in the video as a key skill for effective problem-solving in complex challenges, where team members move away from debate and towards understanding each other's viewpoints.

💡Psychological Safety

Psychological safety is a concept where team members feel secure to express their ideas, concerns, and take risks without fear of negative consequences. The video emphasizes its importance in allowing open communication, which is vital for innovation and effective decision-making.

💡Complexity

Complexity in the video refers to the intricate and multifaceted nature of challenges that organizations face, especially during transformation. It is characterized by low agreement and low certainty, which traditional organizational structures often struggle to address effectively.

💡Innovation

Innovation is the process of introducing new ideas, methods, or products. The video discusses how creating a culture that drives innovation is a goal for the organization, particularly when aligning culture with a transformation strategy.

💡Unforeseen Challenges

Unforeseen challenges are those that an organization does not anticipate or plan for. The video emphasizes that while strategies and roadmaps are important, it is the ability to deal with these unexpected difficulties that often determines long-term success.

💡Decision-Making

Decision-making is the process of selecting a course of action from among multiple alternatives. The video script discusses how the skills of perspective-taking and psychological safety can enhance the quality of decision-making, especially in complex scenarios.

💡Transformation Strategy

A transformation strategy is a comprehensive plan that organizations use to redefine their performance and reshape their future. In the video, the speaker was hired to perform a culture upgrade with the aim of aligning the culture with the organization's transformation strategy.

💡Skills-Based Approach

A skills-based approach is a method of focusing on the development and application of specific skills within an organization to achieve desired outcomes. The video details how such an approach, centered around psychological safety and perspective-taking, can lead to successful outcomes and cultural change.

💡S-Curve

The S-Curve is a graphical representation used to depict the traditional product life cycle, showing slow initial progress followed by rapid growth and finally a plateau. In the video, the S-Curve is mentioned in relation to the learning process, where the challenge is to keep participants engaged through the initial slow progress phase to reach the point of significant growth and effectiveness.

Highlights

Per Hugander emphasizes the importance of culture upgrade for organizational transformation and growth.

Hugander introduces the concept that strategy and roadmap are hygiene factors, necessary but not sufficient for success.

The webinar discusses the need for organizations to deal effectively with unforeseen challenges and opportunities.

Perspective-taking is identified as a key skill for navigating complex challenges within an organization.

Psychological safety is highlighted as vital for effective problem-solving and decision-making.

Hugander shares models useful for a structured approach to culture, including the complexity matrix.

The SEB case study illustrates how a skills-based approach can drive innovation and align culture with transformation strategy.

Hugander explains the Capability Trap theory by Nelson Repenning and its implications for long-term gains vs. immediate costs.

The process of ingraining new skills involves initial workshops, weekly follow-ups, and continuous practice.

Finding a culture champion within the organization is crucial for embedding new cultural practices.

Hugander suggests using skeptics as promoters once they experience the benefits of new cultural practices.

The Leadership Backbone platform provides resources for learning how to implement perspective-taking and psychological safety.

Hugander provides advice on dealing with skeptics by selling the benefits and ensuring long workshop sessions for skill adoption.

The size of the group for workshops is recommended to be between 6 to 20 participants for effective dialogue and skill practice.

Hugander stresses the importance of not introducing these skills in short workshops to avoid misunderstandings and underinvestment.

The webinar concludes with a Q&A session where attendees can ask questions and gain further insights into culture upgrading.

Transcripts

- [Laurianne McLaughlin] Hello and welcome to today's

webinar, "Upgrading Culture for Transformation and Growth."

I'm Laurianne McLaughlin,

Senior Editor, Digital, at MIT Sloan Management Review,

and I'll be moderating the event.

Today's program is sponsored by HCL Software.

Before we delve into our webinar,

"Upgrading Culture for Transformation and Growth,"

let's meet our speaker today,

Per Hugander.

Per is a strategic advisor

and a professor of practice

at Hult International Business School.

His work on decision-making, problem-solving,

and culture has been published

in the Harvard Business Review,

MIT Sloan Management Review,

and Knowledge at Wharton.

Per works extensively with startups

and is an agenda contributor to the World Economic Forum.

Welcome, Per.

- [Per Hugander] Thank you, Laurie,

for that introduction

and thanks for having me.

It's a great honor to be here

and to get to present at MIT Sloan.

So I thought we'd just dive in

so we get as much done as possible.

Is that okay?

- [Laurie] Please.

- [Per] All right.

So I thought we'd start with taking a look at complexity

and why most organizations need a culture upgrade

if they want to transform their organization,

or if it's a small startup aiming to scale.

So why do we need that culture upgrade?

We'll start to talk a little bit about that.

Then we'll look at culture,

what it really is

and how we can influence it.

And then or through the first half of the talk,

I'll introduce what I find useful models

because I think if you're working

with a subject as fluffy as culture,

it's good to have some robust models

to base your thinking on

so you can have a structured and stringent approach.

So I will share some of the models that I find useful

and hopefully they'll be useful to you as well.

And the last half of the talk,

I'll talk about a practical example.

And for that,

I'll use the case study

that Harvard professor Amy Edmondson wrote about my work

with Swedish Bank, SEB.

And also, it describes how we use this skills-based approach

to upgrade the culture.

And for the ones of you who don't know,

SEB is a 170-year-old bank

and it has 15,000 employees spread across the globe.

And recently,

SEB was named one of the most innovative banks

in the world by the Global Finance Magazine.

And innovation or more precisely,

to create a culture that drives innovation

and that aligns the culture

with the transformation strategy.

Those were the goals that I was given when I was hired

to perform this culture upgrade.

So we'll use that case as an example,

but I want to point out that I did develop the approach

when I was helping startups growing into becoming scale ups

and many of them unicorns.

So it's at least as helpful in that context as well.

Let's get to the first thing that I think

that everyone needs to know and understand

if you want to scale

or if you want to transform an organization.

That's that your strategy and your roadmap is a hygiene

factor. A lot of the time

when we raise money

or sell our plans to the board of directors

and the senior executive team,

we kind of fall in love with our strategies and our roadmaps

and we think that they will guarantee a success.

But they are hygiene factor,

and with that,

I mean they're important.

They need to be well-thought through.

And without them,

you don't have a chance,

but they will not guarantee success.

They're table stakes.

They'll get you to the table,

but what decides your long-term success?

That will be the unforeseen challenges and opportunities

that occur along the way

and how you deal with them.

And if you're not effective

in how you deal with those unforeseen things that happened,

they're very likely to both slow you down

and sometimes even derail you.

So this is important to keep in mind

that it's the unforeseen challenges and opportunities

that will decide your success.

Then secondly,

the challenges that tend to derail us or stop us,

they're most often of complex nature.

So when we move into new markets

and we try to move into new customer segments,

and we start doing new things,

doing them in new ways,

the certainty about the decisions we made

or what those decisions will lead to,

that is reduced.

Let's see if I can draw on this.

Yes, so that goes down.

So you move out on the certainty axis

of the complexity matrix.

And at the same time,

the opportunities about the options

about how to move forward,

they will also increase.

So it's a lot harder for us to reach agreement.

So a lot of the time,

we'll move out on this axis as well.

So the challenges that tend

to stop us are these complex challenges,

challenges that are out here.

And the reason why they tend

to stop us is that our organizations are set up

to function down here in a more simple context,

not in a super simple context right down here,

but a lot less complex than the context that you enter into

when you go into scale up mode

or when you go into transformation mode.

So what happens when we use thinking

and approaches that work well here up here is

that we get stuck.

A lot of the time,

instead of the progress that we were hoping for,

we end up with frustration, tension, and stagnation.

So these kind of challenges,

let's see.

So these kind of challenges,

the complex challenges.

That's what I've been helping organizations

to solve the last 15 years.

And one thing that I've learned through doing this

for such a long time is that there's two skills

that really make a very big difference.

And if you're able to both learn those skills

and get better at them

and use them in a structured way,

we can be quite effective up here.

So I'll share a little bit what that can look like

when we go through the SEB case,

but I thought first we would look at the skills.

So the first skill

that I think is the most important up here would be

perspective taking.

And with perspective taking,

what that looks like when we put it to use.

In the teams that I help,

once we recognize that we're dealing

with this complex challenge where there's low agreement,

what we do then is we switch out of debate mode

and we stop arguing about what's the right way forward.

And instead we go into sensemaking.

And we try to walk around the topic

and take each other's perspectives.

Let's see if I can get the brush size up here a little bit.

So we take each other's perspectives

and we move around this complex topics.

And by moving around it

and taking each other's perspectives,

we get a better understanding of the topic,

but we also free up our brains to come up with better

and new and better decisions.

So that's the benefit of being able

to switch into perspective-taking.

And perspective-taking is the first key skill,

and it should be a part of all problem-solving processes,

especially when you're dealing with complex challenges.

So that's the first skill.

The second skill is about psychological safety.

And psychological safety is one

of the most misunderstood topics in management today.

Lots of people don't understand

that it is vital for problem-solving and decision-making.

And to me,

psychological safety is all about the input

into our problem-solving processes

and into our decision-making processes.

And if you want to make good decisions,

that's the output.

You have to have good input.

And on complex challenges, we need people to

first, we need them to dare to challenge each other

and challenge the way that we do things.

And we also need people to share accurate information

even when things are not going well

and even when we have maybe competence gaps

or where we need help.

And unfortunately,

that very important information is something that a lot

of us rather hold back.

It's human nature to want to hold those things back

that feels risky,

that might make us look less competent

or maybe a little bit aggressive

when we're challenging each other.

So the natural instinct

that we have is to not share that kind of information.

So every time people pull back

and don't share that information,

we get worse input,

and we get a worse understanding

of the problem we're trying to solve.

So psychological safety is defined as the willingness

to take interpersonal risk.

And your ability to create an atmosphere

where people can share that kind of information,

that vital information,

and share it in a accurate, precise way,

that will not guarantee,

but that will help you to get the high quality input

that you need.

So that's why psychological safety is so important.

And once you have that psychological safety,

people dare to bring in the really important information.

Then perspective-taking becomes really important.

And when you can do both of those things

and you build those skills,

that's where you can make those really good decisions.

So that's the main reason why I propose that.

Everyone should try not only to use these skills

to get progress on one or two

of these challenges that tend to stop us,

but also to ingrain them into your culture

so that you can effectively attend

to all the complex challenges that will pop up.

So those are the skills.

And if you want to learn more about how I train those skills

or how I help organizations use those skills

to make progress on the really tough complex challenges,

then we'll link to a few articles in the last slide.

And you also have that in your handouts.

But the rest of this webinar,

I thought we'd focus on how do we infuse these skills

into your culture?

Because these skills,

they're not only good for problem solving

and decision making,

psychological safety

and perspective-taking are also key skills

when it comes to other challenges that you need

to deal with when you're scaling

or when you're transforming.

So that would be challenges like how to become innovative

or if you're a scale up,

how to stay innovative,

and how to get teams to come together quickly

when you bring in new people

and be effective from day one,

and how you collaborate over organizational lines.

Those are all things that you need

to at least be fairly good at.

And psychological safety is key to all of those things.

And maybe most importantly,

it's the key to be able to include new people,

but new competencies as well.

And when we scale and when we transform,

those new competencies will be vital.

We need to get them

into our both our problem solving processes

and into our organization.

So there's lots of reasons why psychological safety

and perspective-taking are the things

that I always focus on when I help people

to upgrade culture.

Then sometimes we include other skills as well

and other cultural components,

but I always include these

'cause they are key to everything

that the organizations that I help need.

So let's take a look at how we can infuse this

into your culture.

And first, let's take a look at what is culture.

So culture's usually described

as the way we do things around here.

So the typical behaviors

that you'll see in an organization.

And the late Edgar Schein,

who is a professor emeritus here at MIT,

he describes culture as the underlying assumptions

that we share about how to create good outcomes.

So it's the underlying assumptions,

the bottom of the iceberg.

And these underlying assumptions

about how we create good outcomes,

they're so ingrained in the way we do things

that we act by them and behave by them

without thinking about it.

Okay, so to give you a better understanding

of what that is I thought I'd share a everyday example.

So this is my way to work.

This is the Stockholm Central Station,

Monday morning, rush hour.

And there's a few hundred people on the platform

that needs to get to work

and they need to get on the train.

And at the same time,

there's a few hundred people on the train

that need to get to work and get off the train.

So this could be a very chaotic situation,

but it's not, because we all share an underlying assumption

that it's a good idea if people get off the train

before people get on.

And since we share that assumption

and we act by it without thinking about it,

the behavior becomes that people stand

to the side of the doors as the train approaches.

So the people on the train can get off

and we can get on.

And this runs really smoothly all the time, every day,

hundreds of times every day.

So the underlying assumption,

this underlying assumption that has been ingrained

that has become an underlying assumption

because it works.

And there's two things that really needs

to happen for a assumption

to become an underlying assumption.

So, first,

it needs to solve an important problem.

So this is a very important problem for us.

We all need to get to work.

And if it solves that problem,

and if it will keep helping us solving that problem

time and time again,

we stop thinking about the assumption

that we should stand to the side

and we just start doing it.

So it gets ingrained

and the behavior becomes automatic.

So this happens in organizations as well.

We come up with how to solve our most important challenges.

And if those assumptions work time and time again,

they get ingrained

and they become underlying assumptions

that guide our behaviors.

So if you want to change culture,

what you need to do, according to Schein,

that I firmly believe in,

is that you want to help people change assumptions,

change assumption about [what] works for us here in our

complex or in our specific context right now.

So the way I put this

to use in this skills-focused approach is

that it's a full focus on underlying assumptions.

And I create the proof.

I try to find ways to create the proof

that these skills lead to successful outcomes.

And it's not the general theoretic understanding

and insight and assumption that this will work

that I can give from, you know

if I share Amy Edmondson's excellent research

on psychological safety.

She clearly thinks psychological safety

to better performance,

but that theoretical insight is not enough.

What I want to help people

to understand is how it works for us on our challenges

in our context with our people.

So right here,

that's the key.

And what I aim to do in everything I do, really,

in this skills-based approach is to create this link.

So let's see if I can get the next slide up.

Yeah, so to create this link.

That perspective taking leads to successful outcomes.

So the first thing I need to do then is to help people

to solve something tough

just like in the train station,

if you remember.

You have to solve a complex challenge.

And then you need to help them do that time and time again

so that this gets ingrained,

and they realize that it doesn't just help one time.

It's not just one challenge

that we can reach successful outcomes

by using perspective-taking.

It actually works time and time again.

So this slide is basically the...

If you remember one slide or one picture,

then it should be this here.

Perspective taking it or the link

between perspective taking or psychological safety

and successful outcomes.

If you can create that and strengthen it,

you can change the underlying assumptions

and that will eventually change the behaviors.

So practically,

what I do to help teams to do this

or to help organizations do this is that, first thing

I think about is to go deep, not wide.

So with that,

I mean that I avoid the normal approach

or the more used approach where people rolled out workshops

to lots of employees in all parts of the organization.

I try to stay away from that and instead,

I try to find one team who's willing to invest the time

and the effort to build the skills.

Let's see if I can...

Sorry.

To build these skills to an adequate level

so that they can reach successful outcomes.

So this takes a little bit of time.

It's not something that you do in one workshop

or two workshop.

It has, actually, has to be a process with a few workshops

and also some follow ups.

So it takes some time.

And that's usually the really tricky part,

to get someone to invest that time.

So for example, at SEB,

when I started there

and we embarked on this transformation

or culture upgrade journey,

people really...

The executives and the senior leaders,

they were interested.

They wanted to learn about these skills,

but they wanted to do it through two-hour workshops

or half-day workshops.

And no one was really willing

to put in that time to build the skills to an adequate level

so that we could start making this connection.

So all the workshops that I got to do,

the short workshops,

I realized that this is not gonna get us

where we need...

This will get that theoretical insight.

And they'll dip their toe into this concept,

but they won't get how this...

They won't get this link.

And I was about to give up

'cause this went on for a long time.

No one wanted the long process.

Everyone wanted quick interventions,

short workshops.

But then eventually,

the chief risk officer,

so that's a very good person to work with on

this, he's in the executive team.

And of course,

risk is key to banking.

So he called me up and he said,

"I read about this psychological safety

and I want it in my team."

And I told him that,

"One workshop isn't gonna be enough.

We're gonna need a couple of workshops, more workshops,

and then also continuous follow ups."

And he realized that this was a lot of time,

but he said,

"If that's what it takes,

I believe that this will be worth it."

So this is key.

What I got there was I found that culture champion

and this is what you need to do.

You need to find that one leader who wants

to invest this time

and take his team through this process.

And once you get that,

once you find that committed champion,

then you wanna design a skills training

that takes the s-curve into consideration.

So what the s-curve tells us is that we can usually,

we can have a workshop.

So this is a workshop.

During workshops,

you can get people to understand

that these skills are really good

and you can have them,

train them through exercises

and get them excited about the potential.

But then when they go into their normal work lives,

they usually have some problems in the beginning.

Before they learn how to make this work in their context,

it might be a little bit uncomfortable

with the new behaviors,

and they might not get the response they want.

So sometime during this phase,

people find reasons to say that it sounded like a good idea,

but it doesn't work for us.

It doesn't work here,

it doesn't work for me,

and they give up.

So this is what happens with most investments that we do

in skills and capabilities,

that we have good workshops,

we send people on training,

but we don't help them

to make it work in their home environment.

So that's what we need to design for.

So the way I help people overcome this

and what we did at SEB was

that we put in weekly follow ups.

So this is a weekly follow up.

We would do this every week.

And every other week,

we would focus on perspective-taking.

And every other week,

we'd focus on psychological safety.

So what usually happens is that people come in

and they're struggling.

So the first week here,

they're struggling,

they're not doing that well.

So my job is basically to motivate them to keep going.

What usually happens the second week

is that some person comes in

and they've had some success,

maybe one or two of them.

Could have been that they solved a problem in their team

or they improved collaboration with some counterpart

in the business.

I also encourage people to use this

in their home environments,

so lots of people come back with stories

of improving relationships with their kids

or with their partners.

So things that they think are success

or likable outcomes that kind of links this skill

to good outcomes anyway.

It's not the big business success yet.

So we're not getting exactly where we want to go,

but we're getting on the way.

So they're seeing successful outcomes.

And what happens then is that they motivate each other

to keep going and keep pushing through this first phase.

And about the third time we follow up,

'cause these are not very hard skills to learn.

The hard thing is to actually use it in your environment.

But psychological safety and perspective-taking,

we can all do these things.

It's just to get used to doing them

and that's where people fail.

But once they push through to this third week,

everyone basically comes in with something

that's somewhat successful.

And these weekly follow ups,

they become storytelling sessions

where people first bring in their own stories

'cause they've been at home

and getting these experiences

that link perspective taking to successful outcomes.

And then they share those stories.

So you don't only share,

but you hear maybe three, four, five stories

of what other people do.

And that verifies that it's not only you.

This actually works in different parts of our context.

and they both inspire each other,

but they also borrow small behavior, stuff

they hear working for other people.

And then the learning curve really takes off.

You get into that steep part of the learning curve.

They become better and better and better

and the results become better and better and better.

And it's a really effective way

to keep linking the skills to successful outcomes.

So this is key,

but as we started out

when we talked about the s-curve,

this rarely happens

because you don't get people through the first part

of this curve.

So I want to share an example or not an example,

but a situation from the first team that I worked with,

so the risk team,

the senior risk team at SEB.

So during this first workshop that we had,

I'd gone through the skills

and we've done some exercises.

And then there's this very powerful person in the team.

So he's not the chief risk officer,

but he's a very senior credit officer,

that's involved in all the most important decisions

and lots of trust

and people really look up to him.

So very important informal leader.

So what he does is in this workshop,

he sits in the middle.

and he just kind of leans back like this.

And he looks at me and he says,

"Per, I understand these things

with psychological safety and perspective-taking,

but you have to understand,

I'm paid to make decisions.

If I don't make decisions,

the machine stops.

I don't have time to listen more,

and I don't have time for this."

Okay, so that was not a great start.

But the thing was,

what was actually good about it was that he said it

because this is something that lots of people think

during these kind of sessions

'cause they've been to skills trainings

and they've been to other kinds of trainings before,

and they know that most of the time,

it doesn't lead to anything.

So lots of people would be thinking this,

but he said it

and there was lots of people in the team going like this,

"Yeah, we don't have time.

We can sit through this workshop,

but we don't have time."

So, that's a really important part of these sessions.

You need to design for this,

you need to keep this in mind

because this will happen.

And this is one of the reasons

why we don't get the breakthrough that we want.

And I want to share with you a very good theory

that everyone who works with change should keep in mind.

And this is Nelson Repenning's The Capability Trap.

Basically, what it tells us is that we're really bad

at prioritizing long-term gains.

So in our personal lives,

we know we should eat broccoli,

and we know we should exercise.

And if we do,

we avoid really horrible diseases,

and we live longer and healthier lives.

Basically, there's a...

See if I can get that drawing to work again.

So there's like a pot of gold here,

long and happy life.

And all we have to do is eat our broccoli

and do some exercise.

And we often start out,

we've all started out,

but most people actually just drop off the wagon,

never get to that pot of gold

at the end of the rainbow.

And we know,

I think you all recognize that this is what happens.

So what Nelson's research tells us is that we're equally bad

at this as organizations,

if possibly, even worse.

So what his research shows is that

if we have a long feedback loop

where the costs are immediate

and the rewards are set in the future,

then most often,

we will fail.

Let's get the brush size up.

Sorry, I'm trying to...

There we go.

So even if we know that there's a pot of gold here

at the end of the rainbow

and all we have to do is get on this process

to build that skill

or this concept that we want to implement for innovation

or whatever it is that's proven.

So psychological safety,

Amy Edmondson's research definitely shows

that psychological safety leads to better performance.

Still, there's very few organizations and teams

that actually build it to a good level.

So, lots of people start off,

but just like with the broccoli,

we find reasons not to do it.

So I think the s-curve

that we talked about before is one reason,

and there's lots of other reasons,

but what we know is that we basically never get to the end,

especially if the costs are immediate.

And have to keep in mind

what I'm asking of these leaders,

with this guy who's sitting there and being very skeptical,

he works like maybe 60 hour weeks.

So the alternative cost for him to take four days

to do these visualization exercises with me,

he sees that that alternative cost is really high.

So what I need to do if I want

to overcome this capability trap is

to shortcut the feedback loop.

So you want to shortcut this loop.

And what I try to do is that I take a little bit

of this gold at the end of the rainbow,

metaphorically speaking.

And I try to infuse it here in the beginning

with the hope that if they not only see that,

we'll be better in two years if we do all this work now,

but they actually see right now that,

they get some of that goal,

they get some of that benefit right now

that is a much better feedback loop.

And that will keep people at least coming

to the first sessions.

So that's what I tried to do.

And at SEB,

what we did is that the first workshop

where he was sitting like this, being skeptical,

that's a full day workshop,

that's not a two-hour workshop or a short workshop

'cause the short workshops,

they'll end right there.

But this workshop didn't end.

What we did is that we pushed through

and we learned the skills.

I'll tell you how we did that a little bit later.

But first, I want to to share what actually happened

when we got through the process

'cause I got the whole team to go through the process

and we'll get to how later,

but we did.

And during the fourth check-in that we had,

the fourth follow-up when they come in with examples

and then they visualize future examples,

he shared a story about this strategy

that we were not making progress on,

and we all knew about this strategy.

So it was our multinational strategy.

This was a very lucrative new business that was evolving

and we weren't able to align on a strategy.

So we weren't bringing on these customers

even if we wanted to

'cause we didn't feel like the strategy

that was proposed fit within our risk frameworks.

So we were stuck

and we'd been stuck for years.

So it's this typical complex challenge,

if you remember that,

the complexity matrix.

It's one of these where there's low agreement

and since that market is developing,

there's also low certainty.

So we were stuck.

And what he said was,

"This is a complex challenge.

I'll try to put on my perspective-taking hat when I go in."

And he did.

And then he came back the next follow up

and he said that, "It worked.

We managed to get a strategy in place.

And it wasn't what they proposed,

and it wasn't what I proposed.

But instead of arguing over our positions,

we took each other's perspectives.

And we were able to come up with new ideas

about how we could move forward

that definitely fulfilled what the business wanted

and it kept us within the risk limits.

So this was a really good example.

It was very powerful for this team that...

It's a very powerful way to link the skill

to something that they'd been struggling with

for a long time.

But what was even better

or created an even better link in a better story was that

at the end of the process, two months later,

he shared that we had started onboarding customers.

And it looked like this was gonna have

some substantial bottom line results,

like millions and millions of dollars.

And when you work at a bank,

millions of dollars is

a really good sign of positive outcomes.

So it was a very clear link

between perspective-taking

and good outcomes in our specific context.

I was winning these people over.

This was a great story to sell to other teams

to do the same thing.

And of course, this was the risk team.

So they weren't that excited about the money coming in.

They were more excited about staying

within the risk frameworks

and that the bank was doing well

and bringing in money.

So it was a win-win-win for everyone.

It's a very good example and very useful

when trying to convince others to do the same thing.

- [Laurie] Per, I just wanna give you a heads up on time

that we have about five minutes before we go into Q&A.

- [Per] Yeah, perfect.

- [Laurie] So I wonder if you could bring us

into the how portion of your-

- [Per] Absolutely. - [Laurie] Material here.

- [Per] Absolutely.

So we're getting to that.

Let's see, that was one too many.

So put the skills to use quickly and early.

That's what you need to do.

You need to get people a taste of the successful outcomes.

And if you do,

you make this link.

And this story,

this really created this link

and it helped us to mitigate the capability trap.

And what it also did was helped

to justify keeping the workshops in the calendar.

And that is really important

'cause when you get that culture champion,

that person is gonna be under fire

from these really skeptical people

who will try to avoid to go to the workshop.

So this helps him or her

to justify keeping the workshops in the calendar.

So the next thing you want to do is if you're serious

about influencing the culture,

you don't want to give them just one chance.

So the way I design it is the first workshop,

you do this structured.

Yeah, sorry, I was a little bit derailed.

I forgot about telling you about that first.

Sorry, I started hurrying up there.

Yeah, so what we do to get that taste

of the successful outcomes is that

at the end of the first day that I work with them,

where we build these skills,

they get to vote for a few really complex,

important challenges that they need to solve

in order to make progress

and the stuff that really matters to them.

And then I lead them through a dialogue,

a structured dialogue using perspective-taking

to move around the topic

and come up with new ideas.

When they approach those complex topics that way,

they usually make progress.

And this happened in the risk team

and it happens in basically every other team.

So that's a key to the design.

So put the skills to use quickly and early.

Then you have the weekly follow ups.

And if you're serious,

you don't want to give them just this chance

'cause that's taking too much of a risk.

So I put in follow follow-up days.

And during those days,

we don't introduce new skills and new theories.

We work and use the skills

to make progress on what matters to them.

And at the end of each day,

we do some of these

or we do one of these structured dialogues

around their topics that they really care about.

So they come away from this process having lots of examples.

Remember the train station,

you need to first solve one challenge

and then show that it works over time on many challenges.

So we're really solidifying this link.

And that solidifies over these weekly follow ups as well.

So you give them lots of opportunities.

And what you then do is that you stop selling the skills.

I don't talk about prospective-taking anymore.

Then you start telling other people,

other teams about the successful outcomes

and that will help you to recruit new promoters.

So this is key.

Put the skills to use early,

give them several opportunities

so that it gets ingrained.

Then you get to these underlying assumptions

so it gets more and more natural.

Use the stories that you create through the process

to recruit new people and you get a movement going.

So this is also key,

and it's one of the last things I wanna talk about.

So use your believers to spread the message.

Use the people that's been through it.

You don't want to force anyone to get behind this.

You want to have the people who have had this experience.

So a lot of the time,

people try to get the CEO or the senior management team

to go out and say we need psychological safety.

But if they haven't experienced one

of these really powerful examples

of how you get this progress,

then it's very likely to be half-hearted message.

So you want these skeptics.

So the best person to talk about this

and who talked about this the most

with this really skeptic person who sat like this

and said he didn't have time,

that's the person who spreads this the best

and he's selling this, not me.

And it wasn't in the beginning,

the senior manager,

so those believers.

So do that.

And when you get those people to the training,

don't tell them what to do.

Like those really senior people,

they're comfortable with how they behave,

they don't want to be told how to behave.

But if they go through those weekly sessions,

they will find their way to do psychological safety,

perspective-taking.

It's not super hard stuff to do.

It's just that they need

to find their own way of doing it.

And again, let's see,

use your skeptics.

That's the most powerful promoters.

So I have one more story

that I hope I can get in before we end up.

So that was after the risk team,

we did this when the investment bank

that's really high profile,

and these people were even more skeptic to this.

But we got them to that first workshop,

and they realized the power of this.

That was a another really tough complex challenge.

So we were foreseeing lots of IPOs in the Nordic market.

And for some reasons or lots of different reasons,

we weren't collaborating well enough internally

to grab that business.

So they said, "For some, we can't solve this

and we want this business,

but we can't get the collaboration to work."

Let's use one of these jazz sessions to do it.

And we did,

and they came up with a way to move forward.

And these people had been super skeptic before.

These are high,

the typical high-profile bankers,

they were really skeptic to these soft skills,

but they put it to use.

We moved around it for an hour,

taking each other's perspectives instead of arguing.

And they came up with a solution.

And the market did take off

and we ended up earning so much money on this

'cause we were able to catch a large part of that market.

So this was highlighted in our annual report,

and it was one of the strongest profit drivers.

It was one of these great successful outcomes,

linking perspective-taking,

which, in the beginning,

people just thought was soft stuff

to millions and millions of dollars on the bottom line.

And also that it was done by the skeptics,

the people that were the most skeptic.

So they then became really powerful promoters of this.

So that's basically the skills-based approach.

And going back just to recap.

Success will depend on your ability

to solve these challenges up in that corner,

the complex challenges

that we're naturally not good at solving.

But perspective-taking and psychological safety

are key skills that you can learn,

and you can infuse those skills into your culture.

And to do that,

you wanna find that champion.

You wanna go deep, not go wide,

go deep and put the skills to use early,

put them to use

so that they get a taste of that goal

at the end of the rainbow

so they don't drop off the back wagon.

And once you do that,

communicate stories.

Keep communicating those stories

and use your believers,

the flipped skeptics.

So that's what I think you want to take away.

And we'll jump over these.

And just for the ones of you

who are curious about how do you teach this skill

of perspective-taking?

I advise you to look at this article

that I wrote with a Wharton Neuroscience Initiative

that tells you what it is and why it's so powerful.

And then if you're curious

about these structured dialogues

and the breakthroughs that we have,

then look up this article

'cause that describes that

and the neuroscience behind the ideas.

And this is a good article

that I wrote with Amy Edmondson

about how to boost psychological safety.

And I think that those are like the basics.

And of course,

this article that we're talking about today,

the skills-based approach

and all of these are on my platform,

the leadership backbone.

And there's other articles that goes more into depth.

So if you want to know the how of the actual process,

that's where you want to go to look at it.

But I think now we have an understanding

of how the culture parts,

how we can upgrade that.

So with that,

I'm a little bit over time.

I'm sorry about that,

but I think we hit most of the stuff that I wanted to-

- [Laurie] Terrific.

Thanks, Per.

Great presentation.

- [Per] Thank you.

- [Laurie] I just wanna remind everyone

that this material is in your handouts.

And I'd also like to remind everyone that the presentation

and the recording will be available after the webinar,

so you'll have that.

But now let's move into the Q&A.

If you'd like to ask a question,

you can still do so by putting it in the Q&A module

in the engagement panel on the right side of your screen.

So first, Per,

one of the attendees asks,

how do you define perspective-taking?

And what is the difference between perspective-taking

and active listening?

- [Per] Ah, yeah, that's really good.

So this is key.

And it'll be in those articles.

But perspective taking is very much about getting outside

of your own bubble.

So a person who's much smarter than me,

who I can't remember the name of,

she said that that two people are never

in the same conversation.

So you and I can be talking

and we can be hearing the same things,

but I hear and interpreted that based on my history,

what I've been through both recently,

but also what I bring with me from education

and from my experiences

and from that team that I work with.

So perspective-taking is about moving outside of that bubble

and moving into another person's bubble.

So try to imagine what it is like

to go into another person's bubble.

So active listening,

that's one part of perspective-taking

'cause you need that active listening.

But active listening often happens from my bubble.

I listen and I hear what confirms what I already know

and what confirms my ideas.

But if you want to become really good at perspective-taking

and what we train through this process

with the follow-ups is to get out of my own bubble

and try to see the topic from another person's perspective,

including their motivations, and their history,

and why they think the way they think.

Is that fairly clear?

- [Laurie] Great, great.

And that leads nicely into our next question.

Robin asks,

"Can you please give an example

of how people do prospective-taking in their organizations?

In other words,

how would you get this going with the group?

- [Per] So, if you talk about and if you just...

Most of the time,

I have them read an article on it

so they understand the basics.

And when they do,

people understand that,

ah, we probably have a few complex challenges,

so let's give it a shot.

And then instead of advocating for my point of view,

we decide that now we're looking into Laurie's perspective.

So then I will try to forget my bubble

and really dig into your perspective

for 5 or 10 minutes or sometimes 4 minutes.

And then we just stop the time

and then we move into Per's bubble.

And then you try to forget your perspective

and you move into mine.

And if there's someone else,

we move around

and sometimes it's two minutes, three minutes.

Usually, really simple stuff like that can help

to move away from debate

and into seeing the topic from lots of different angles

and perspectives.

And then the dialogues

that I talked about that you could read about

in those articles,

well, that's a little bit more sophisticated,

but it's all about timing and spreading the word

so that instead of being focused on my point of view,

I do that for maybe 10% of the time,

but most of the time,

I'm exploring the topic from other perspectives.

So that's how you get into it.

And it's a lot about facilitating the conversation.

It's not just you can do just free flow.

I could use it with someone who doesn't know about this,

but the key to these processes is

that the whole team goes through it.

So then they can say it's time for perspective-taking,

let's switch into perspective-taking mode.

And that is super powerful when you want

to address these complex challenges.

And it's very rare if people don't know about this

and don't practice it,

it's extremely rare.

And a lot of the time,

you're stuck between debate,

sometimes a little bit perspective-taking

and that's why we get stuck.

So having the vocabulary

and just practicing the skills is a great way

of just saying, "It looks like a complex topic.

Let's move around it instead of arguing."

So yeah, that's a long answer to that.

Hopefully it became somewhat clear.

- [Laurie] Thanks, Per.

So Karina had a related question,

which is she's looking for some advice for how

to actually switch from debate

to sensemaking during a meeting.

Now, you just mentioned vocabulary.

- [Per] Yeah.

- [Laurie] Do you recommend having specific questions ready

to enable that switch from debate to sensemaking

or certain phrases?

What advice can you share?

- [Per] Absolutely.

So it depends on if you are the only one who knows this,

if you are in a situation

where you feel that it's a personal skill,

then what I train people in is a lot of the time

to see when it's a complex challenge.

And then for yourself,

have cues for yourself to get into perspective-taking.

I relax my feet,

I take a deep breath,

and then I have a few standard beginnings.

So I would say,

"Oh, this looks like a complex challenge.

Before we move on,

I really want to understand your perspective.

So is it okay if I ask you a few questions,"

so then people know that I'm really interested.

And it's a lot that helps in psychological safety as well

to share that.

So that's a way for me to do it

when other people aren't aware of this.

But if you want to speed up your team,

if you're trying to transform or scale

and your whole team is on board,

then you want to build this vocabulary.

So first,

you want to take a look at Stacy's complexity matrix

and see what of the things we're struggling with slots in

as complex challenges.

And on those,

you probably wanna read up a little bit

about perspective-taking.

You'll have the vocabulary and just say,

"This looks like a complex challenge,

what do you think?

We set off one hour to move around it

and take each other's perspectives."

And if people understand the strength of perspective-taking

and start getting those experiences,

that vocabulary to just say that,

and it's not very tough.

It's enough that you all read those articles

that I refer to.

That usually helps people to be open

to spending an hour on an important topic.

- [Laurie] Great.

- [Per] So those are cues.

- [Laurie] And I just wanna remind everyone,

you have those articles in your handouts.

So hopefully if you use those,

that will help you gain some of that vocabulary

that Per has to share.

While we're doing this work, Per,

of of the perspective-taking,

can you give some examples

of how to promote psychological safety among the group

while they're doing this work?

Because this is quite difficult work

for some people to do.

- [Per] Absolutely.

Yeah, it's very difficult for lots of people

and especially when we get into those sensitive areas

where I feel vulnerable talking about things

that aren't going well

or there might be reasons why I've been trying

to improve my KPI instead of the overall performance.

You might be in a situation where you feel vulnerable,

but you need to share that information.

So how to do that,

a lot of the time,

there's different ways you want to...

If it's possible,

you want people to get comfortable being uncomfortable.

So you want to practice

on a little bit less sensitive things.

So what this is, is that psychological safety is really

a warning system that you detect

that something here is risky

and you start shying away.

And that warning system that we have,

that warns us that now we might look

like we're less competent

or people might see us as hostile.

That warning system is not really calibrated

for the work that we need to do when we scale and transform.

It's calibrated for living

on the (indistinct) millions of years ago.

So you can calibrate it

by start to talk about these sensitive issues.

And don't start with the toughest ones,

but start with stuff that's a little bit sensitive

and you'll recognize that,

oh, it wasn't that bad.

So you start calibrating that warning system for people.

And if you have sessions

where you talk about things that isn't going well

or things that I'm unsure of,

then it becomes easier and easier and easier.

And then I think that it's the framing.

Amy talks about this,

Amy Edmondson who talks a lot about that.

I really believe it.

And if you frame the question,

first of all, you wanna rip it out of the everyday life

and give it some time.

And then you want to frame it as a learning question,

not something that we need to get done quickly,

but a learning question

that we need everyone's input on.

And then also if you have the vocabulary for complex,

you want to tell people it's a complex challenge.

There's lots of ways to move forward.

And we want to learn about it,

so everyone needs to contribute.

That helps.

And then if people are trained in perspective-taking,

so that's another article

that you'll find that me and Amy wrote as well.

And then perspective-taking

actually helps psychological safety.

So when I am am really curious about your perspective,

I will feel more safe to voice it

than if I'm in a debate and an argument

and where people are using my words against me

if there's a weakness.

So that perspective-taking is also a way

to get to psychological safety.

- [Laurie] Great.

Per, we have time for one or two more questions.

- [Per] All right.

- [Laurie] One more good question here is,

what if you've gone deep with one team

and they have the new skills,

but you're working with another team

in the organization that does not?

What advice do you have for leaders in that situation?

- [Per] So the thing is that the skills,

they work really well if I have them as an individual skill.

So I teach this to individual leaders as well.

And just keep using them.

And when you have the vocabulary for it,

you can try to introduce that in other situations.

So when you work across organizational lines

with other teams that don't have the vocabulary,

you can try to infuse it,

but you can use the skills in those situations.

So the first example

where we were talking about the multinational strategy,

it was only that guy,

the skeptic guy who trained the skills

and had the vocabulary.

But since he moved into perspective-taking

and asked the other people,

if you want to know my perspective

after he verified that he understood their perspective,

you can get into it.

And a good way to do it is to be clear.

Like I said before,

you just say that this looks like a complex challenge,

I'd like to understand your perspective.

Then you ask some questions.

Once you understand that perspective,

you try to verify it and say,

have I understood you correctly?

And once you verify that you understood,

then you ask,

would you like to hear my perspective?

And then it's really hard for the other person to say no,

I'd rather not hear your perspective,

let's move on.

So then you kind of force them

even if they don't have the skill

to somewhat take your perspective.

So being open and talking about what you're actually doing,

saying that we need to explore this,

I want to understand your perspective.

Do you want to understand mine?

That can help when the other people aren't skilled

or versed in this.

- [Laurie] Great.

Per, any parting advice on dealing with skeptics?

- [Per] Yeah, I think don't tell them what to do,

whatever it is,

especially if...

That might work with younger leaders,

but older people,

they're comfortable with the way they do things,

sell the benefits.

Sell the benefits and read these articles

and show them that this works for other people,

and it'll work for us.

So give it a shot.

And if they do you,

they will get it.

So it's just to get them on that program

and trying it out.

And whatever you do,

we didn't get to that

'cause I was running late.

But you don't want to introduce these skills

in short workshops

because what happens with skeptics then is

that they'll hear active listening

instead of perspective-taking.

And you don't have time to switch them like you do

when you get them through that program

where I switched all those skeptics

that we talked about before.

So they leave that workshop,

thinking that we know this,

we don't wanna invest time in this.

So don't try with short workshops.

Make sure you get long workshops.

I call that the danger of dipping your toe.

It's in that article.

And stick, if you got skeptics,

make sure you have enough time to work with them,

so they really get a taste of what that gold

at the end of the rainbow is.

- [Laurie] Per, one of the attendees asks,

"What size group you do recommend in a workshop?

What size group is productive?"

- [Per] Yeah, so for these sessions with the risk team,

we were 18 people,

so that's big.

That's tough.

And that was a very tough process,

especially for being the first group.

It works really well

if you're like eight, nine,

that's a good size.

But anywhere from 6 to 20,

I've done with 32 people,

it's just lots of the stuff is in those articles.

But you just need to keep the structure

and guide them through these dialogue sessions.

That's the key.

And you can do that with lots of people.

You just have lots of conversations going at the same time.

- [Laurie] Great.

I hope that gives everyone an idea

on the size of the group.

- [Per] Yeah.

- [Laurie] Per, thank you so much

for sharing your insights with us today.

And thank you to our-

- [Per] Thank you for having me.

- [Laurie] Thank you to our audience

for asking such great questions.

And thank you to our sponsor, HCL Software.

I hope you enjoy the rest of your day, everyone.

Thank you very much.

- [Per] Thank you very much.