AI, Man & God | Prof. John Lennox

Summary

在这段视频中，讨论了人工智能（AI）的发展及其对社会和个人身份的深远影响。强调了AI技术的快速进步，特别是面部识别和数据收集能力，以及这些技术在中国等国家的监控和控制中的应用。同时，提出了关于科学与信仰、人类身份和道德责任的哲学问题，指出科学不能提供所有生活问题的答案，特别是关于生命的意义和道德指南。此外，探讨了人工智能的潜在危险，包括自主武器和道德决策的挑战。最后，讨论了超越人类（transhumanism）的概念，即通过技术增强人类能力，以及这与基督教信仰中关于人类不朽和超越性的观点之间的关系。

Takeaways

• 😨 **面部识别技术**：中国等地区使用闭路电视进行面部识别，甚至能从背后识别人，引发隐私和监控的担忧。
• 🧐 **科学与信仰**：即使在世俗化的社会中，信任和信仰依然是重要的概念，科学不应被视为唯一的真理来源。
• 📚 **科学与哲学**：科学擅长分析事物的工作原理，而宗教和哲学则提供更深层次的人生意义和道德指导。
• 🚀 **科技进步**：科技，尤其是人工智能的发展，为人类带来了巨大的潜力和便利，但同时也引发了一系列伦理和道德问题。
• 🤖 **人工智能的分类**：分为窄AI（专注于特定任务的智能系统）和AGI（通用人工智能，能执行人类智能的广泛任务）。
• 🛡️ **隐私与安全**：随着技术的发展，隐私和安全之间的平衡成为一个重要议题，需要在享受科技便利和保护个人自由之间找到平衡点。
• 🌐 **全球监控**：全球范围内的监控技术正在增加，这在一定程度上反映了对安全的追求，但也可能导致个人自由的丧失。
• 📉 **道德责任**：在自主武器和自动驾驶汽车等技术中，如何编程道德决策成为一个重要问题。
• ⛓️ **技术依赖**：人类对技术的依赖可能导致道德和伦理的退化，我们需要保持对科技的批判性思考。
• 🧬 **超人类主义**：超人类主义追求通过技术手段改善或增强人类身体和心理能力，但这涉及到深层次的身份、道德和存在意义问题。
• ✝️ **基督教观点**：基督教信仰提供了对生命、死亡和超越现实的不同视角，这与世俗的超人类主义观点形成对比。

Q & A

面部识别技术在中国的发展到了什么程度？

面部识别技术在中国已经发展到可以识别人的背部，通过各种特征进行识别，包括步态等。

教授John Lennox提到的关于科学与信仰的关系是什么？

教授John Lennox认为，科学在它的能力范围内是值得信赖的，但科学不能解答所有问题，特别是关于生命意义和道德指南的问题，这些需要哲学、文学和神学来解答。

什么是“scientism”？

“Scientism”是指将科学视为唯一通向真理和理性思考的方式，认为所有其他的东西都是虚构的。这是一种对科学的过度信赖，忽视了科学本身的局限性。

在讨论人工智能时，教授John Lennox提到了哪些可能的危险？

教授John Lennox提到了人工智能可能带来的危险，包括自主武器的发展、隐私侵犯、道德决策的复杂性，以及人工智能可能导致的对人权的威胁。

什么是“窄AI”和“通用AI”？

“窄AI”是指在特定领域内具有高度专业化智能的系统，而“通用AI”则是指能够执行任何人类智能活动的系统，具有更广泛的应用和能力。

为什么人们对于人工智能和科技的依赖可能导致道德和哲学上的困境？

因为科技和人工智能的发展速度远远超过了我们的伦理和哲学思考，这可能导致我们在没有充分考虑道德和哲学后果的情况下，盲目追求技术进步。

教授John Lennox如何描述他对英国当前文化态度的看法？

教授John Lennox认为英国似乎在自我批评，对自己的文化根源进行否定。他认为英国在历史上对世界产生了难以置信的积极影响，但目前英国人的信仰和价值观似乎正在经历变化。

在讨论人工智能的未来时，教授John Lennox提到了哪些关键的伦理问题？

教授John Lennox提到了关于自主武器的伦理问题、如何为自动驾驶汽车编写伦理程序、以及人工智能发展可能导致的对人权的威胁等关键伦理问题。

什么是“transhumanism”？

“Transhumanism”是超越人类主义，指的是通过生物工程、药物和其他技术手段增强现有人类，甚至可能通过技术将人类转变为半机械化的生物，以此来超越人类的生物学限制。

教授John Lennox如何看待人类对不朽的渴望？

教授John Lennox认为人类对不朽的渴望是内在的，这种渴望是硬编码在我们的本性中的。他认为基督教信仰提供了对这种渴望的深刻答案，即通过耶稣基督的复活，人类可以获得永生。

教授John Lennox在讨论中提到了哪些历史人物对科学和信仰的看法？

教授John Lennox提到了艾萨克·牛顿、查尔斯·达尔文、斯蒂芬·霍金、阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦以及C.S. 刘易斯等历史人物，他们对科学和信仰的关系有着不同的见解和贡献。

Outlines

00:00

😀 人脸识别技术的担忧

本段讨论了人脸识别技术，特别是中国如何通过闭路电视进行面部识别，甚至能够通过人的步态等特征从背后识别个人。同时提到了与牛津大学数学教授John Lennox的对话，讨论了科学与信仰的关系，以及科学主义在现代社会中的影响。

05:01

🧐 科学与道德的界限

这一段深入探讨了科学的角色和局限性。强调了科学在技术发展中的作用，同时指出科学不能提供道德指导，也不能回答关于人生意义和目的的深层次问题。提到了英国社会世俗化的趋势，以及对科学过度信任可能导致的道德真空。

10:01

🤖 人工智能的定义与影响

讨论了人工智能（AI）的概念，包括窄AI和宽AI的区别。窄AI指的是在特定领域内模拟人类智能的系统，而宽AI则指的是能够执行任何人类智能任务的系统。同时，提到了AI在医疗、商业等领域的应用，以及它对隐私和监控资本主义的影响。

15:02

🛡️ 中国的AI监控与社会信用系统

本段描述了中国如何使用AI技术进行大规模监控，包括面部识别和社交媒体监控，以及社会信用系统的实施。探讨了这种系统对个人自由和人权的潜在威胁，以及人们对这种系统的不同反应。

20:02

📉 西方世界的监控与道德挑战

讨论了西方国家虽然尚未将所有监控技术统一管理，但监控和数据收集正在增加。强调了这种趋势对个人自由和隐私的威胁，以及人们对此的认识和反应。

25:03

🚀 人工智能的未来发展

本段探讨了AI技术快速发展带来的挑战，包括自主武器和无人机的使用，以及如何为自动驾驶汽车编写道德程序。同时，提出了对AI未来发展的担忧，包括对人类控制能力的担忧。

30:03

🧬 人工智能与人类增强

讨论了人工智能与人类增强（transhumanism）的概念，包括通过生物工程和药物增强人类能力，以及将技术植入人体以创造半机械化生物。探讨了这些技术对人类身份和社会的影响。

35:05

🏛️ 基督教视角下的人类未来

从基督教的角度讨论了人类对不朽的渴望，以及人类通过技术手段寻求成为神的尝试。强调了基督教信仰中耶稣基督复活的意义，以及它如何为人类提供了超越物质世界的未来希望。

40:05

🤔 信仰与科学的对话

本段讨论了信仰在科学和宗教中的作用，以及如何正确理解信仰。强调了基于证据的信仰对于科学和基督教信仰的重要性，并呼吁人们在面对AI和人类未来的问题时进行深思熟虑。

45:07

🌟 基督教信息与人类未来

最后一段总结了基督教信仰如何为人类未来提供了答案，包括永生的承诺和身体复活的希望。同时，对比了人类通过技术成为神的尝试与基督教上帝成为人的教义，并鼓励人们面对道德现实，做出明智的决策。

Keywords

💡面部识别

面部识别是一种通过分析个人的面部特征来识别或验证个人身份的技术。在视频中，它被提及为一种监控手段，尤其在中国，不仅用于面部识别，还能通过步态等其他生物特征来识别个人，即使他们背对摄像头。这体现了技术在提高安全性的同时，也引发了隐私和监控的担忧。

💡科学主义

科学主义是一种将科学视为唯一真理和理性思考方式的观点。视频中提到，这种观点认为所有非科学的事物都是不真实的，但这种看法在逻辑上是自相矛盾的，因为科学本身并不能证明科学是通向真理的唯一途径。科学主义忽略了哲学和神学在探索生命意义和道德问题上的重要性。

💡人工智能（AI）

人工智能是指由人制造出来的系统所表现出来的智能。视频中讨论了AI的两种形式：窄AI和广义AI（AGI）。窄AI是专门针对特定任务设计的智能系统，而AGI则是指能够执行任何人类智能活动的智能系统。AI的发展引发了对未来人类社会、伦理和身份认同的深刻思考。

💡监控资本主义

监控资本主义是一种经济系统，其中企业通过收集和分析个人数据来驱动利润。在视频中，它被提及为一种现象，即全球公司在未经个人许可的情况下使用和出售个人数据，引发了隐私和伦理问题。

💡社会信用系统

社会信用系统是一种评估个人社会行为并给予相应奖励或惩罚的系统。视频中提到中国正在实施这样的系统，通过积分来评价个人的行为，如按时支付债务、环保行为等，分数高的个人可以获得更多的机会和便利，而分数低的则可能面临限制和惩罚。

💡道德困境

道德困境是指在道德选择上遇到的困难决策，通常涉及权衡不同道德原则或价值。视频中提到了自动驾驶汽车在不可避免的事故中所面临的道德困境，以及历史上的电车难题，这些都是需要人类深思的伦理问题。

💡超人类主义

超人类主义是一种思想，认为通过科技和生物工程可以超越人类的生物学限制，创造出更高级的生命形式。视频中讨论了这一概念，指出人们对于永生和幸福的追求可能导致人类通过技术手段重塑自己，但这种追求忽视了人类固有的道德和精神需求。

💡身份认同

身份认同是指个人对自己是谁以及自己在社会中位置的认识。视频中提到，在超人类主义的背景下，人们对自己的身份认同可能会发生改变，因为他们可能会通过技术手段增强或改变自己的生物学特征。

💡永生

永生是指生命无限延续的状态，不经历死亡。视频中提到，人类对永生的追求是深刻的，这种追求可能通过技术手段实现，但基督教信仰提供了一种不同的视角，即通过信仰和耶稣基督的复活，人们可以获得永生。

💡信仰

信仰通常指对某种信念或宗教教义的信任和依赖。在视频中，讨论了信仰的多重含义，包括科学中的假定信念和宗教信仰。强调了信仰不应被视为盲目的，而应基于证据和理性的考量。

💡技术发展

技术发展是指科技知识和应用的持续进步。视频中提到，技术的快速发展可能会超过我们的伦理和法律框架，导致对人类未来的影响难以预测。技术发展带来了便利，但也引发了对隐私、安全和人类本质的担忧。

Highlights

面部识别技术的发展，特别是在中国，已经能够通过各种方式，包括从背后识别个人。

John Lennox教授在牛津大学与主持人讨论了科学与信仰的关系。

Lennox教授批评了科学主义，即科学被视为通向真理的唯一途径。

讨论了科学在现代社会中的地位，以及它如何影响道德和伦理。

提出了对科学和技术发展的担忧，包括人工智能和虚拟现实等。

Lennox教授强调了文学、哲学和神学在回答生命重大问题中的重要性。

讨论了英国社会世俗化的原因，包括牛顿的宇宙观、启蒙运动和达尔文的进化论。

指出了人们对科学成果的盲目信任可能导致的道德真空。

分析了人工智能的当前状态，包括狭窄AI和通用AI（AGI）的区别。

探讨了人工智能在医学中的应用，如X射线解读和药物开发。

讨论了智能手机作为追踪器的隐私问题和监视资本主义。

对中国使用AI进行大规模监视和控制的情况进行批评。

讨论了社会信用系统及其对个人自由和权利的潜在威胁。

Lennox教授分享了他对人工智能未来发展的看法，包括对人类身份和道德责任的挑战。

探讨了人工智能在军事领域的应用，包括自主武器和无人机的伦理问题。

讨论了转人类主义的概念，即通过技术增强人类能力，以及它对人类未来的潜在影响。

Lennox教授从基督教的角度对转人类主义和人工智能的道德挑战提出了批评。

强调了个人和社会需要对科学和技术的发展做出明智的伦理决策。

Transcripts

this is perhaps one of the scariest

aspects of it what we're talking about

here is facial recognition by closed

circuit television

well it starts with facial recognition

but we've now got to the stage where in

China in particular they can recognize

you from the back by your gate by all

kinds of things

[Music]

it's an extraordinary privilege for me

to be in Oxford and able to talk

personally to professor John Lennox

emitter artist professor of mathematics

at the University of Oxford

for years a professor of mathematics at

the University of Wales in Cardiff he's

elected extensively all over the world

he's written widely interestingly he's

spent a lot of time in Russia and

Ukraine after the collapse of Communism

and it's deeply grieved to see what is

happening there and the idea that young

men on both sides that he and others

have taught and mentored may now be

fighting one another into the dust and

these dangerous times in which we live

but amongst these many writings he's

given us gifted us

a very useful book he tells me he's

already updating it on artificial

intelligence and the future of humanity

called 2084 which says a lot in the

sense that we all know about 1984. I

think you're telling us that there are

some troubling things coming up John

thank you so much for your time that's

my pleasure to be with you

can we begin over the past two years

during the covert pandemic but also with

climate change

we hear this phrase a lot in Australia

and it seems internationally

trust the science

strikes me that in our allegedly secular

age trust and faith are still seen as

pretty important we haven't walked away

from them

do you think those who are accused of

not trusting the science are frequently

seen as somehow rationally and even the

morally deficient in an age of Crisis is

science becoming a new savior in

inverted commas

well trusting The Sciences is fine if

it's kept to the things at which science

is competent

but

unfortunately over the past few years

there has developed a trust in science

that we now call scientism

where science is regarded essentially as

the only way to truth the only option

for a rational thinking person and

everything else is fairy stories and all

the rest of it and I take a great

exception to that because it's plainly

false it's false logically because the

very statement science is the only way

to truth is not a statement of Science

and so if it's true it's false so it's

logically incoherent to start with but

going a little bit more into it

it has had huge influence because of

people like the late Stephen Hawking for

example who wrote

in one of his books he he said that

philosophy is dead

and it seems now as if scientists are

holding the torch of truth and that's

that's scientism the irony of it is of

course that he wrote it in the book

where it's all about philosophy of

science and it's pretty clear that

Hawking brilliant as he was as a

mathematical physicist

really is a classic Exemplar of what

Albert Einstein once said the scientist

is a poor philosopher

and

my response to it is very much would be

coached in the kind of attitude that sir

Peter meadowward his Nobel Prize winner

in Oxford here once wrote he said it's

so very easy to see

that science meaning the Natural

Sciences are limited in that they cannot

answer

the simple questions of a child where do

I come from where am I going to and what

is the meaning of life

and it seems to me immensely important

that we recover that and what metaphor

went on to say is we need literature we

need philosophy and we need theology as

well in my view in order to answer the

bigger questions

now the late

Lord sacks a brilliant philosopher he

was the chief Rabbi of the UK and the

Commonwealth and so on and one of the

guests on the series and one of the

guests on this series where I'm

delighted here he once wrote a very

pithy statement that I found very

helpful he said you know science takes

things apart

to understand how they work and I

suppose to understand what they're made

of religion puts them together to see

what they mean and I think that

encapsulates the danger in which we're

standing science has spawned technology

we've become addicted to technology

particularly the more advanced forms of

it like AI in my book like virtual

reality the metaverse all this kind of

stuff we've come addicted to it but

we've lost a sense of real meaning and

in particular we've lost our moral con

Compass Einstein again to quote him made

the point long ago he said

you can speak of the ethical foundations

of science but you cannot speak of the

scientific foundations of ethics

science doesn't tell you what you ought

to do it will tell you of course if you

put strict name in your granny's tea it

will give her a very hard time in fact

it's killer but I can't tell you whether

you ought to do it or not to get your

hands on her property and so we're left

in a scientistic moral vacuum and

therefore I feel very strongly that as a

scientist of sorts I need to challenge

this science is marvelous but it's

limited to the questions that can handle

and let's realize it does not deal with

the most important questions of life and

they're the question of who am I what

can life and does life mean and where do

we get a moral compass

before we come to artificial

intelligence then I'd just like to

explore what you've been talking about a

little bit with reference to Britain I

love history I've always massively

admired Britain and and I know Britain

seems to be under self-flagellation on

just about every issue you can think of

at the moment the decrying of its own

cultural Roots but to my way of thinking

I think in many ways Britain's been a

force for unbelievable good in the world

I really do I mean as an Australian I

would not live in a free country if it

hadn't been for the prime minister of

this country standing up when no one

else did in 1939 just one minor example

but I come here now and I wonder just

what the British people believe in

so massively shaped by by Christian

faith

arguments sometimes very ugly over a

long period of time but nonetheless

profoundly shaped the times reported

just a couple of years ago that we've

reached the point where 27 of britons

believe in God with an additional 16

believing in a higher power among the

British as a whole 41 say they believe

there is neither a God or a higher power

interestingly those in the UK young

people the number who said they believe

in God Rose a little

um

and uh nonetheless what you've got here

is one of the most secular societies on

Earth which not so very long ago was one

of the more Christian

what's responsible is it tied to a sort

of false faith in science amongst other

things or is it just it's too hard or is

it that um the wars have seen people

convinced that you saw two Christian

nations fighting people praying to the

same God for victory how did it

morph so badly to a state of unbelief do

you think the country that you've lived

in your life I find this a complex and

difficult issue because I see different

strands in it

if you pick up on the science side you

go back to Isaac Newton and he give us a

picture of the universe that was very

much what's called A Clockwork picture

the universe running on fixed laws

that were according to Newton originally

set in place by God but it was a

universe that essentially now ran on its

own and you can see that that in the

18th century particularly favored what's

called deism that is there is a God but

he's hands off he started it running and

now it runs and it runs very well and

you can see with that in the collective

psyche particularly in the academy it

very rapidly led to questions of is God

really necessary

now you add that to what was happening

in the continent with the Enlightenment

and the corrupt

Church professing Christianity utterly

corrupt and the reaction against that

which was fueled to the fire really off

a rising secularism and Atheism

and then you add to that what was

happening in the days around the time of

Charles Darwin where you'd Huxley who

was an atheist and he resented

these clergyman who were actually some

of them very good natural philosophers

like Wilbur Force actually was a much

brighter man than many people think as

Darwin pointed out but Huxley in the UK

he wanted a church scientific he wanted

to turn the churches into

the temples to the goddess Sofia of

wisdom that that kind of idea so you've

got all of that and then you add to that

they

vitriolic anti-god sentiments that are

not just atheism but anti-gold failing

LED for quite a long time by Richard

Dawkins and other people and that's had

huge influence on young peoples one of

the reasons I entered The Fray actually

because the media then come into this as

even more complicated because within the

media the dominant View

and I think the BBC actually stated this

at one time that they favored naturalism

the philosophy that Nature's older is

and there's no outside there's no

Transcendence there's no God so you've

got all of that

and against it

you have

a group of people who are often code

into

letting their faith in God become

private

this is the tragedy of secularism and

you get into that the cancer culture the

culture all this kind of stuff where

I've got to affirm everything

everything's equally valid that you

you've got relativism and post-modernism

at least and things that people think

don't matter you never meet a postmodern

business person who

goes to a bank manager and says I've got

five thousand dollars in the bank and

the bank manager says well actually

you owe the bank ten thousand oh that's

only your truth no that doesn't work in

the business world

but still you've got this pressure of

relativism and so you end up as Michael

Burke put it a few years ago talking

about faith in God and Britain

with the first generation that doesn't

have a shared worldview now there's

still a Christian influence as even

atheists recognize but we've gone a long

way in rejecting God and abandoning God

and then there's the entertainment

industry that will fill

everybody's vacuum with noise and we

entertain ourselves to death so your

question is extremely complex and it

would need a more observant person than

me to give you a full answer it's it's a

huge mix of stuff and any individual

person may be an effect of this in

completely different ways

the reason that it's important I think

to set that up is to we now come to what

I really wanted to hear your views on

artificial intelligence because science

is giving us extraordinary capabilities

yes but will we Simply Be seduced by it

in the sense that artificial

intelligence

is rapidly creating things that are

marvelous that we want to enjoy that may

satiate US

May Dulles

while aspects of the emergence of AI

could be very dangerous but before we

start to explore that

for

Ordinary People in the street like me

who are not living with us well we I am

living with this stuff but don't know

where it might go we need to Define some

terms what is AI what's I think you call

it narrow AI of the sort that we're

quite familiar with limited intelligence

but highly focused on on on on narrow

areas what is

artificial general intelligence and

where might that go there's a whole

number of issues then there's some the

whole issue of um of uh transhumanism

so can we start with very broadly AI is

what John how would you explain it to a

Layman

we've all heard the term no sure well

the first thing to realize is that the

word artificial in the phrase artificial

intelligence is real

and that's not due to me it's due to one

of the pioneers of the subject who was

happens to be a Christian and the point

is that I will take a narrow AI system

first because it's much easier to

explain and narrow AI system

is a system involving high powered

computer a huge database and an

algorithm that does some picking and

choosing

that whose output

is something that it normally requires

human intelligence to do

that is if you look at the output you

would say normally that it's taken an

intelligent person to do that so let's

take an example that is very important

these days in in medicine and that's

x-ray

interpreting x-rays

so we have a database let's say it has

one million

X-rays of lungs that are infected with

various diseases say related to covet

19.

they are then labeled in the database by

the world's top experts

then they take an x-ray of your lungs or

my lungs

and the algorithm compares the X-ray of

your lungs with the million very rapidly

and it produces an output which says

John Anderson has got that disease now

at the moment that kind of thing which

is being ruled out not only in Radiology

but all over the place will generally

give you a better result than your local

hospital will and that's hugely

important and hugely valuable but the

point is the machine is not intelligent

it's only doing what it's programmed to

do the database is not intelligence the

intelligence is the intelligence of the

people that designed the computer know

about X-rays and know about medicine

but the output is what you would expect

from an intelligent doctor so it's in

that sense artificial it's a system

narrow in the sense it only deals with

one thing

and all kinds endless kinds of of

systems are being ruled out around the

world and some of them as you mentioned

are extremely beneficial

narrow way has been used in the

development of vaccines and the spin-off

from that technology is enormous in drug

development

and on and on it goes and I can give you

dozens of examples and uh there in my

book so that's that's where we start now

we are familiar with it and it's worth

giving a second example of it because

most of us voluntarily

are wearing

first of all a Tracker it's called a

smartphone it knows where we are it

could be even recording what we're

saying

but what it does do of which we're all

aware is if we for example buy a book on

Amazon

we very soon get little pop-ups that say

people that bought that book are usually

interested in this book

and what's happening there is the AI

system

is creating a database of your

preferences your interests your likes

your purchases and is using that to

compare with its vast database of

available things for sale so that it

predicts what you might like so this is

a huge commercial value and

it leads to something else which most of

us don't know about and we can come to

that later but I'll mention it now which

is called surveillance capitalism

and there's a book by and the meritar

professor at MIT called Susanna juboff

and it's regarded as a very serious book

because the point she's making is global

corporations are using your data and

without your permission are selling it

off to third parties and making a lot of

money out of it and that raises deep

privacy issues so now you're straight

into the ethics

so that's narrower AI

okay so let's stay on narrow Ai and

extend our road a little bit further

down towards broader use you've just

talked about us being unaware of in a

way of how we're being surveilled yes

and it was right here in Oxford I think

it may have been you who made the point

I can't remember uh in a talk that I

heard

where the point was made that what's

happening in China using artificial

intelligence to surveil people is

astonishing but in many ways all that

information has been collected in the

west as well it's just as not collated

in this that's correct and this is

perhaps one of the scariest aspects of

it what we're talking about here is

facial recognition by closed circuit

television

well it starts with facial recognition

but we've now got to the stage where in

China in particular they can recognize

you from the back by your gate by all

kinds of things

and what has happened is and you can see

the positive benefit

police want to arrest criminals

or thugs or rowdies even in a football

crowd and so using facial recognition

technology they can pick a person out

and arrest them or her

well okay but what it can be used for

good purposes in that sense in keeping

Law and Order

can also become

particularly in an autocratic State a

common instrument of control

and

here's the huge dilemma which people try

to solve how much of your privacy

are you prepared to sacrifice for

security there's a tension between those

two things now in China you mentioned

and you're probably thinking about

xinjiang where you've got a minority a

Muslim minority of uyer people

the surveillance level on them is is

unbelievable every few hundred meters

down the street they have to stop they

have to hand in their smartphones the

smartphones are loaded with all kinds of

stuff by the government their houses

have QR codes outside them as to how

many people live there and all this kind

of thing

and I don't know how many it's way over

a million I believe

are being held as a result of what is

being picked up by artificial

intelligence systems in re-education

centers and the suspicion is that the

the culture is being destroyed and

eradicated that's the one hand that's in

one particular Province but

elsewhere in China we have now the

social credit system that apparently

will be ruled out in the entire country

we're given say you and I were given to

start with let's say 300 social credit

points

and we're being trailed if we

fail to put our rubbish trash can out at

night there'll be marks against us if we

go to summer dubious or mix with someone

who's political loyalties or suspect

we'll get more negative points on the

other hand if we pay our debts on time

and

go green so to speak and all this kind

of thing we will amass more crevice

points

and then if we are going negative the

penalties

kick in we'll discover we can't get into

our favorite restaurant

we'll discover we don't get that

promotion or don't even get that job we

apply for or that we can't travel or

that we can't even have a credit card

and this is being ruled out and the list

of penalties and and things that have

actually been recorded is just very

serious now what amazed me when I first

came across this was the fact that many

people welcomed us they think it's

wonderful they're both I've got a

thousand points so many of you got

and they don't realize that the whole of

life

is becoming controlled in the interest

ostensibly of having a healthy Society

so

it is talk about

1984. now this is not futuristic

speculation this is already happening

George Orwell you mentioned him he wrote

1984. he talked about Big Brother

watching you and that technology would

eventually it is doing it this is narrow

AI this is not futuristic in any way

it's what's actually happening at the

moment and you mentioned briefly the

fact that all this stuff exists in the

West

except

and the point has been made forcibly

it's not quite yet under one Central

Authority and control but it is coming

we have credit searches we have all

kinds of stuff that is beginning to

creep in in the US and

in the UK and I presume also in

Australia and also we have even police

forces here I believe who want the whole

caboodle in here and want to be able to

exert a much more serious level of

control

and it is frightening because

what it does for human rights is is well

so so it occurs to me that you know I

love history as I've mentioned

authoritarian regimes have collapsed

under their own weight typically the

people who've risen up one way or

another and there's been an overturning

we've never had autocratic regimes that

have had this surveillance capacity

there's you know an estimated 400

million pro-circuit television sets in

China that's one for about every three

people I mean it's mind-boggling oh it

is mind-boggling and even here in the UK

what I'm told is that you're on a closed

circuit TV Camera every five minutes

when you're moving around so it is very

serious and of course the irony is as I

hinted at earlier here we are with our

smartphones that have got all these

capacities certainly at the Audio Level

and we're voluntarily wearing them so

we're voluntarily seeding part of our

autonomy and our rights really to to

these machines when we don't really know

what has been done with all the

information so we have a huge problem

and someone has said we're sleepwalking

into all of this so that we're captured

by it we're imprisoned by it

and we wake up too late because the

central Authority has got so much

control

that we cannot Escape anymore so let's

go back to where I started science is

blessing us because they are fantastic a

lot of these things you know with

incredible technology and capabilities

that you've alluded to some of the

useful things I mean I I love the way in

which I can in my car say Hey Siri call

my wife yeah they're just fantastic but

but

the my my question about what we now

believe

goes to the heart of who do we think we

are what is our status on what basis

will we be alert enough to recognize we

need to make tough decisions and then on

what basis will we make the ethical

decisions around how far this goes

I know it's a complicated question but

there's another element to it because we

haven't even got into General artificial

intelligence yet we're still talking as

I understand it about narrow artificial

intelligence just masses of it yes those

surveillance cameras and the people in

their desks in Beijing you know

collating the information and what have

you there might be a lot of information

and a lot of capability

but those cameras can't think of another

task uh you know how to go and bring my

boss a cup of coffee

it's still narrow that's absolutely

right and before we've got to general

intelligence yes and

what we've got to realize several things

first of all

the the speed of technological

development outpaces ethical under a

penny by a huge Factor an exponential

Factor

secondly some people are becoming

acutely aware that they need to think

about ethics and some of the global

players to be fair do think about this

because they find the whole development

scary

is it going to get out of control and

someone made a very interesting point uh

I think it was a mathematician who works

in artificial intelligence and she was

referring to the Book of Genesis and the

Bible she said God created something

uh got out of control us

we are now concerned that our Creations

may get out of control and I suppose in

particular one major concern is

autonomous or self-guiding weapons

and and that's a huge ethical field

here's a man sitting in a trailer in the

Nevada desert and he's controlling a

drone in the Middle East and it fires a

rocket and destroys a group of people

and of course he just sees a puff of

smoke on his screen and that's it done

and there's

a huge distance between the operation of

that lethal mechanism

and we only go up one more from that

where these lethal flying bombs so to

speak control themselves we've got

swarming drones and we got all kinds of

stuff who's going to police that

and of course every country wants them

because they want them to have a a

military Advantage so we trying to

police that and to get International

agreement which some people are trying

to do now

I don't think we must be too negative

about this and I'm cautious here but we

did manage at least temporarily who

knows what's going to happen now to get

nuclear weapons at least controlled and

partly banned so some success but

whether with what's up to Ukraine at the

moment with Putin and so on

he could shoot a nuclear tactical weapon

or it could be controlled autonomously

make its own decision yeah but and then

where do we go from there and these

things are exercising people

at a much lower level but it's still the

same how do you write an ethical program

for self-driving cars

yeah so that if there's an accident that

can't be avoided

[Music]

yeah again

um that you put for ethical students of

Ethics it was very interesting to see

how people respond to switch tracks

dilemma is simply that you have a train

hurtling down a track and there's a

points and it can be directed down the

left hand to the right hand side down

the left hand side there's a crowd of

children stranded in a bus on the track

on the right hand side there's an old

man sitting in his cart with a donkey

and you are holding the lever do you

direct the train to hit the children or

the old man that kind of thing but we're

faced with that all the time and it's

hugely difficult without going near AGI

yet yet

and let's let's come to our AGI yeah

what is Agi

and because up until now we're talking

about intelligence it's not human it

can't make judgments it can't switch

tasks it can't multitask it can just be

built up to do an enormous thing one

thing even though that might be

massively intrusive as we've talked

about with surveillance technology

correct

but now we're talking about something

different altogether General yeah

general intelligence

means well there have been several

things

the rough idea is to have a system that

can do everything and more

that human intelligence can do do you

have better do it faster and so on a

kind of superhuman

intelligence which you could think of

possibly as at least in its initial

stages being built up out of a whole lot

of separate narrow AI systems building

them up and that will surely be done to

a large extent but research on AGI and

of course it's the stuff of Dreams it's

the stuff of Science Fiction so people

absolutely love it and interest in it

moves in two very distinct directions

there's first of all the attempt to

build machines to do it that is that are

based on Silicon computer plastic metal

all that kind of stuff

and then there is the idea of taking

existing human beings and enhancing them

with bioengineering drugs all that kind

of thing even incorporating various

aspects of technology so that you're

making a cyborg cybernetic organism a

combination of biology and Technology

to move into the future so that we move

beyond the human and this is where the

idea of transhumanism comes in moving

beyond the humans and of course the view

is

of many people that humans are just the

stage in the gradual uh evolution of

biological organisms that have

developed according to no particular

direction through the blind forces of

nature but now

we have intelligence so we can take that

into our own hands and begin to reshape

the generations to come and make them

according to our specification now that

uses raises huge questions the first one

is of course has to Identity what are

these things going to be and who am I in

that kind of a situation now AGI I

mentioned is

something that science fiction deals

with a lot the reason I take it

seriously is it's not only science

fiction writers that take it seriously

for example one of our top scientists

possibly the top scientist who is our

astronomer Royal Lord Martin Reese he

takes this very seriously he says in

some generations hence

um

we might effectively merge with

technology now that idea of humans

merging with technology is again very

much in science fiction but the fact

that some scientists are taking it

seriously means in the end that the

general public are going to be filled

with these ideas speculative of the one

hand but serious scientists espousing

them are the other

so that we need to be prepared and get

people thinking about them which is why

I wrote my book and

in particular in that book I engaged not

one scientists but with the historian

Yuval noahi yeah there's really a

historian yes of course you can to quote

something that he said yeah so

beautifully he actually said this

because I'm glad you've come to him we

humans should get used to the idea that

we're no longer mysterious Souls we're

now hackable animals everybody knows

what being hacked means now and once you

can hack something you can usually also

engineer it let's put that in for a

listeners as you go on with your

insurance man that's a typical Harare

remark and he wrote two major

best-selling books one called sapiens

Homo sapiens human beings and the other

hamadeos and it's with that second book

that I interact a great deal because

it has huge influence around the world

and what he's talking about in that book

is re-engineering human beings and

producing homode or spelled one small

day he says think of Greek gods turning

humans into Gods something way beyond

their current capacities and so on now

I'm very interested in that uh

from a philosophical and from a Biblical

perspective because that idea of humans

becoming Gods is a very old idea

and it's being revived and in a very big

way now to make a precise or more

precise Harari sees that 21st century as

having two major agendas according to

him

the first is to

as he puts it to solve the technical

problem of physical death so that people

may live forever

they can die but they don't have to

and he says technical problems are

Technical Solutions and that's where we

are with physical deaths that's number

one the second agenda item

is to massively enhance human happiness

humans want to be happy so we've got to

do that how are we going to do that

re-engineering them from ground up

genetically every other way drugs

etc etc all kinds of different ways

adding technology implants all kinds of

things

until

we move the humans from the animal stage

which he believes happen through no plan

or guidance

we with our Superior brain power we'll

turn them into superhumans we'll turn

them into little gods

and of course then comes the massive

range of speculation if we do that will

they eventually take over

and so on and so forth so that is

transhumanism

connected with artificial intelligence

connected with the idea of the

Superhuman and

people love the idea and you probably

know there are people particularly in

the USA who've had their brains Frozen

after death I hope that one day they're

going to be able to upload their

contents onto some silicon-based thing

that will endure forever and that will

give them some sense of immortality now

if you notice those two things John

solving the problem of physical death

re-engineering humans to become little

gods that has all to do

with wanting immortality

and as a Christian I have a great deal

to say about that because what's

happening I believe in the transhumanist

the desire for that is a parody on what

Christianity actually is all about

doesn't it to some extent that reflect

that I think the very great majority of

us are conscious at deep down

we don't want to think we'll come to an

end oh no we don't I'm an individual who

actually has no great aspiration to live

to an advanced old age well I'm the same

um frankly

um

not to say I don't enjoy life doesn't

mean that at all just means I don't

inspired a great physical old age

Frailty and what have you

um and I have a different perspective on

what happens after that but deep down I

don't want to think it ends without a

physical death and I think that's pretty

much hotwired into all of us I think

it's hard to wire it and that's

important this business of what's

hardwired at the human beings version so

to speak I think it's vastly important

many years ago I came across that idea

in the moral sense C.S Lewis talking

about in his book and it's relevant to

what we're talking about the moment the

abolition of manners and appendix at the

end where he points out that all around

the world look at every culture

they may differ but they've got certain

moral rules in common it looks as if

morality is hardwired I believe it is by

a benevolent Creator but now we come we

come up to this and

we see that there's hard wiring again

at this particular level God has set

eternity

in the human heart now of course that's

a theistic perspective but if you take

the atheistic take on it then you've got

to explain where it comes from and again

I found C.S Lewis as always right

done the money so to speak he he makes

the point and I'm going to paraphrase it

slightly it would be very strange to

find yourself in a world where you got

thirsty and there was no such thing as

water

I I think that's a very powerful thing

that longing and C.S Lewis has written a

great deal about it brilliant essay

called the weight of Glory that longing

for another world

implies that these are not his words but

they're his sentiments that we were

actually made for another world no I

feel that the transhuman quest is an

expression of the fact that we're

hardwired with a longing for something

transcendent and it's trying to fulfill

it

and I have reasons for thinking it will

do that but you may want to ask about

that later uh

well I think we're probably coming into

land the the thing that I want to do

explore with you for a moment is that

uh

I

think that a lot of people are at the

point where they don't it's it requires

a lot of energy quite a bit of Anguish

to say I'm going to make some tough

decisions about what I really believe

and it seems to me that this whole area

of artificial intelligence and the

chance that we may reach the capacity to

literally destroy ourselves requires us

to think long and hard

and to make judgments that will have to

be based if you like on faith you can't

know exactly what's going to happen so

you see if you want to say Well it

requires a lot of faith to believe in

that thinks through whether I believe in

a God I would have thought this whole

area presents just as great a challenge

who am I how am I going to work this out

do I put some ethical framework done or

do I just sit in the pot and let the

water boil gradually boil until it's too

late yes

I think this is a very important issue

we've come to

there's such confusion in the world

about what faith is and that's mainly

the fault and I would say the fault of

people like Dawkins and Hitchens who

actually didn't know what they were

talking about because

they redefined Faith actually as a

religious word that means believing

where there's no evidence

and what they fail to see is that's a

definition of blind faith that only a

fool would get involved with

the word faith from in English from the

Latin fee days from which we get

Fidelity which conveys the whole idea of

trustworthiness and trustworthiness

comes from having a backup in terms of

evidence

a bank manager will only have faith in

you if you prove you've got the

collateral you have to bring the

evidence we'd be foolish to trust people

without evidence so evidence-based faith

is something everyone understands but

they don't realize is that it's

essential to science and it's essential

to a genuine Christian faith in God I I

get leery these days John of using the

word faith on its own because people

think you're talking about religion

sometimes they say to me will you give a

talk on faith and science I say do you

want me to talk about God oh yes well I

says not in your title I could talk

about faith in science without even

mentioning God because scientists

have got a basic Credo things they

believe they've got to believe that the

signs can be done they've got to believe

that the universe is rationally

intelligible that is their faith and no

scientist Could Be Imagined without a

design Stone once said so if you want to

talk about faith as faith in God please

call it faith and God or else we're

going to get very confused now coming

back to this

you are absolutely right this is going

to force us whether we like it or not to

do some hard thinking and to re-inspect

and recalibrate our world view

because our attitude to these things

depends on our worldview our set of

answers to the big questions of Life

what is reality

who am I what's going to happen after

death and all those kind of things

they're coming out in this area we're

being forced to think about them

and as you say we can sit like the toad

and the kettle when the water is boiling

and pretend that nothing's happening but

we can't afford that that isn't a luxury

that's suicidal

and the trouble is

there is a book called the suicide of

the west where we're just not thinking

enough and I feel and I know you're

doing this and I feel called to do it

today

to put issues out into the public space

so that people can really see that they

can think about them and they can come

to conclusions about them and as you say

we're we're really Landing this

discussion and it seems to me that

focusing on what's going on I read

Harare and I read other books like this

and I say you know I can understand what

you're looking for you're looking for

something that's very deep and hardwired

in us but and I make people smile

sometimes when I meet these people

transhumanists and I say guys

I respect what you're after but you're

too late

and they say what too late of course

we're not too late I say you actually

are too late take your two problems one

physical death

I said no I believe there's powerful

evidence that that was sold 20 centuries

ago it was actually solved before that

but 20 centuries ago there was a

resurrection in Jerusalem we celebrated

with Easter we're just after Easter

night and as a scientist I believe it

for various reasons that we can discuss

but the point is that

if Jesus Christ

broke the death barrier that puts

everything in a different light why

because it affects you and me how does

it affect you and me because if that is

the case then we need to recalibrate and

take seriously his claim to be God

become human I said isn't that

interesting what are you trying to do

you're trying to turn humans into Gods

the Christian message goes in the exact

opposite direction it tells us of a God

who became human do you notice the

difference and of course that actually

gets people fascinated I say you are

actually taking seriously the idea that

humans can turn themselves into Gods by

technology and so on why won't you take

seriously the idea that there is a God

who became human is that any more

difficult to do

and once you've got that then I think

arguably you need to take seriously what

Jesus says and what he says is

and that is the Christian message he is

God become human in order to do what

to give us his life

if you like to turn us into what you

want to be

because the amazing thing about this is

that the central message of the

Christian faith to you and me is the

answer to the transhumanist dream one

Christ promises

eternal life that is life that will

never cease and it begins now not in

some mystical transhuman uncertain

future but right now secondly because he

rose from the dead he promises that we

will one day be raised from the dead to

live with him in another Transcendent

realm that's perhaps even more real

probably more real is more real than

this one

and that's going to be the biggest

uploading ever

you see so your hope for the future of

humanity changing human beings into

something more desirable living forever

and happier all of that is offered but

the difference between the two is

radical because firstly your idea is

using human intelligence to turn humans

into gods

bypassing the problem of moral evil

you're never going to do it no Utopia

has ever been built

and of course

you're not thinking straight because

there have been attempts to re-engineer

humanity crude of course the Nazi

program of eugenics the Soviet attempts

to make a new man and what do they lead

to

rivers of blood 20th century being the

bloodiest Century in history mind you

what's happening no might make this a

very bloody Century but what I'm saying

John is that I believe even more

strongly than ever that we've got as

Christians a brilliant answer

and a message to speak into this that

crosses all the boxes

but it means facing moral reality which

is exactly at the heart of the scariness

with which some people approach these

issues John I think we should land the

plane there

you couldn't more clearly articulate the

reality of the changes before the

challenges before us and the need for

people to get off the fence and not

allow themselves to be satiated

by false comfort

the world doesn't give a set option

anymore in my view if we don't make

decisions now individually and

corporately we're sunk

I don't want to subtract or add to

that remarkable overview of what we're

facing so I'll land the plane and thank

you very much indeed

happy Landing

[Music]