Daniel Goleman The Father of Emotional Intelligence on Managing Emotions in the Workplace

Summary

In this episode of 'The Future of Work,' host Jacob is joined by Daniel Goleman, renowned psychologist and author, known for popularizing emotional intelligence (EI). Daniel discusses his journey, from his academic background in psychology at Harvard to becoming a science journalist and eventually focusing on EI after encountering the work of Peter Salovey and John Mayer. He elaborates on the significance of EI in both personal and professional realms, emphasizing its growing importance in leadership. Through engaging dialogue, the podcast explores the multifaceted nature of EI, including its learnability, impact on leadership, and practical tips for enhancing one's emotional skills.

Takeaways

• 🔍 Daniel Goleman, known as the father of emotional intelligence, didn't invent the term but popularized it through his books and research.
• 🧠 Emotional intelligence (EI) involves self-awareness, self-management, empathy, and social skills, crucial for success in personal and professional life.
• 📚 The concept was initially identified in academic journals and has since been applied extensively in various sectors, including education (as social emotional learning) and the workplace.
• 🌐 EI is not just about managing one's own emotions but also understanding and influencing the emotions of others, which is vital for leadership and teamwork.
• 👥 Goleman emphasizes that EI is both learnable and teachable, contrary to misconceptions that it's a fixed trait or solely genetic.
• 💼 In professional settings, EI is linked to better leadership effectiveness and is often more influential than IQ in predicting success in managerial and team roles.
• 🏢 Organizations benefit from fostering EI among employees through formal assessments, coaching, and continuous learning opportunities.
• 🔄 Self-assessment and feedback from peers and supervisors are integral to developing EI competencies.
• 🚀 For leaders, exhibiting EI involves creating a resonant environment where they connect with their team members' emotions to drive engagement and performance.
• 🎯 Practicing mindfulness and meditation are recommended techniques for enhancing one's EI by improving focus, resilience, and emotional regulation.

Q & A

What is emotional intelligence according to Daniel Goleman?

Daniel Goleman describes emotional intelligence as the ability to be intelligent about emotions. It includes understanding and managing one's own emotions and empathizing with the emotions of others. Emotional intelligence involves skills such as self-awareness, self-management, empathy, and social skills, which are crucial for personal and professional success.

How did Daniel Goleman become involved in studying emotional intelligence?

Daniel Goleman, while working as a science journalist at The New York Times, came across the term 'emotional intelligence' in a journal article by psychologists Peter Salovey and John Mayer. Intrigued by the concept, which he initially thought seemed like an oxymoron, he recognized its significance in understanding how emotions and intelligence interact. This discovery prompted him to write his book 'Emotional Intelligence,' which popularized the term globally.

What is the significance of emotional intelligence in the workplace according to Goleman?

Daniel Goleman believes that emotional intelligence is crucial in the workplace for leadership and teamwork. It sets the best leaders apart by enabling them to manage their emotions and understand the emotions of others. Emotional intelligence contributes to creating a positive work environment and improving performance, as leaders' emotional states can influence and motivate their teams.

Can emotional intelligence be learned?

Yes, according to Daniel Goleman, emotional intelligence is both learned and learnable. He emphasizes that while individuals may have certain predispositions due to their genetic makeup, emotional intelligence skills such as empathy and self-management can be developed through feedback, life experiences, and intentional practice.

What role does emotional intelligence play in engineering, as mentioned by Goleman?

Daniel Goleman highlights that in fields like engineering, emotional intelligence can be more indicative of effectiveness than IQ. He mentions a study where engineers rated each other's effectiveness and found no correlation with IQ but a high correlation with emotional intelligence, demonstrating its importance even in highly technical roles.

What are the types of empathy described by Goleman, and why are they important?

Goleman describes three types of empathy: cognitive empathy (understanding how another person thinks), emotional empathy (feeling what another person feels), and empathic concern (caring about another person). These types of empathy are crucial for effective interpersonal interactions and leadership, as they enhance understanding and care within relationships.

How does Goleman suggest handling emotions at work?

Daniel Goleman suggests that managing emotions at work involves recognizing one's own emotional states and dealing with them appropriately. He advises against venting negative emotions excessively and recommends expressing positive emotions to improve the workplace atmosphere. Effective emotional management contributes to better teamwork and leadership.

What is the impact of a leader's emotional state on their team?

Goleman points out that a leader's emotional state is contagious and can significantly impact their team's mood and performance. Positive emotional expressions by leaders can energize and motivate their teams, while negative emotions can demoralize and reduce team performance.

What methods does Goleman recommend for improving emotional intelligence?

Goleman recommends practices such as mindfulness meditation, focused breathing exercises, and cognitive reframing techniques to improve emotional intelligence. These methods help manage and reduce negative emotions, enhance self-awareness, and increase resilience.

What does Goleman say about the relationship between emotional intelligence and career success?

Goleman argues that emotional intelligence can be a better predictor of career success than IQ, especially in leadership positions. As careers progress, the ability to navigate interpersonal relationships and manage one's own and others' emotions becomes increasingly important, often determining the effectiveness and longevity of a leader in their role.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Introduction to Daniel Goleman and Emotional Intelligence

Daniel Goleman, known as the father of emotional intelligence, joins a discussion about his background and the evolution of his career. From a PhD in psychology at Harvard to becoming a science journalist at The New York Times, Goleman explains his transition into studying emotions and their impact on the brain. He credits his global recognition to the popularization of the term 'emotional intelligence,' which he did not invent but made famous through his writing. The concept, he explains, integrates intelligence with emotions, leading to better self-awareness, management, and interpersonal skills, crucial for personal and professional success.

05:03

🔍 Emotional Intelligence in Engineering and Leadership

Daniel Goleman discusses how emotional intelligence sets apart effective leaders, especially with new data showing its high correlation with success in unexpected fields like engineering, where emotional intelligence, rather than IQ, better predicts job performance. Goleman emphasizes that emotional intelligence involves understanding and managing one's emotions intelligently, which can significantly influence leadership effectiveness. He also explores whether emotional intelligence is innate or learned, concluding that it is a skill that can be developed through feedback and experience, thus debunking the notion of it being solely genetic.

10:04

🧠 Advanced Insights into Emotional Intelligence

Goleman dives deeper into the nuances of emotional intelligence, discussing its three types: cognitive empathy, emotional empathy, and empathic concern, noting that even sociopaths may possess the first two. The discussion shifts to how emotional intelligence can help manage negative emotions which can otherwise limit cognitive abilities and overall performance. Goleman stresses that positive emotions, like optimism and a growth mindset, are also crucial for maintaining focus and resilience in the face of adversity, underscoring the broad impact of emotional intelligence on both personal well-being and leadership efficacy.

15:04

🌟 Expanding the Scope of Emotional Intelligence Beyond Empathy and Self-awareness

Expanding on the commonly emphasized aspects of emotional intelligence like empathy and self-awareness, Goleman introduces additional emotional competencies that distinguish outstanding leaders. He discusses emotional balance, adaptability, influence, and conflict management among others. These competencies, often fostered through feedback and coaching, are essential for effective leadership. Goleman points out the importance of managing both negative and positive emotions, advocating for authenticity rather than suppression of emotions in leadership roles.

20:06

📈 The Evolving Importance of Emotional Intelligence in Professional Growth

Goleman discusses the changing perceptions of emotional intelligence throughout one's career, with newer professionals often undervaluing it compared to technical skills. He debunks the common misconception that IQ is more critical than emotional intelligence, emphasizing that while cognitive skills get you into a role, emotional intelligence distinguishes your performance level. He also discusses how leaders lacking in emotional intelligence might achieve short-term success but often at the expense of long-term organizational health and employee satisfaction.

25:07

🧐 Techniques for Developing and Managing Emotional Intelligence

Goleman offers practical advice for developing emotional intelligence through mindfulness and self-awareness practices. He details methods such as breathing exercises, naming emotions, and mindfulness meditation, which help manage and recover from negative emotional states. Additionally, Goleman emphasizes the importance of resilience, defined as the ability to return to a calm state quickly after being upset. These techniques are not only essential for personal well-being but also enhance professional efficacy and leadership.

30:08

🔄 Addressing Emotional Overwhelm and Cognitive Therapies

When emotional intelligence techniques fail to alleviate stress, Goleman recommends strategies from cognitive therapy, such as reframing one's thoughts and focusing on positive activities that can help restore emotional balance. He introduces the Personal Sustainability Index, a tool to evaluate and balance life's stressors with positive experiences. This approach helps address deeper, persistent emotional challenges by encouraging a more comprehensive self-management strategy.

35:09

👥 Navigating Leadership Challenges with Emotional Intelligence

Goleman provides guidance on dealing with emotionally unintelligent leaders, suggesting indirect methods of influence rather than direct confrontation. He discusses strategies like utilizing allies within the organization who can provide constructive feedback to the leader. Additionally, he humorously suggests a last resort of helping such a leader find employment elsewhere. This section underscores the significance of emotional intelligence in fostering a positive work environment and retaining talent.

Keywords

💡Emotional Intelligence

Emotional Intelligence (EI) refers to the ability to understand and manage one's own emotions, as well as the emotions of others. In the video, Daniel Goleman, who popularized the concept through his book, describes EI as being crucial for effective leadership and personal success. Goleman discusses how EI involves competencies like self-awareness, empathy, and social skills, which are essential for creating positive interactions and environments in both personal and professional settings.

💡Leadership

Leadership in the context of this video is defined not just by one's position, but by one's ability to influence others. Daniel Goleman articulates leadership as having a sphere of influence where others respect and are guided by what one says. This perspective emphasizes the role of emotional intelligence in leadership, where managing one's emotions and understanding others' are key to effective leadership.

💡Self-awareness

Self-awareness is a fundamental component of emotional intelligence, discussed in the video as the ability to recognize and understand one's own emotions and how they affect one's thoughts and behaviors. Goleman highlights self-awareness as crucial for leaders to manage their own emotions effectively and set the right example in professional environments.

💡Empathy

Empathy is highlighted by Goleman as the ability to understand and share the feelings of others. It is a core element of emotional intelligence, critical for leaders to resonate with their team members and manage interpersonal relationships effectively. In the video, empathy is linked to better team dynamics and more effective leadership.

💡Social Skills

Social skills, as discussed in the video, involve managing relationships to move people in desired directions, whether in leading, negotiating, or working as part of a team. Goleman emphasizes that these skills are part of the broader set of emotional intelligence competencies that leaders need to cultivate to ensure productive and harmonious interactions in the workplace.

💡Self-management

Self-management is a term used by Goleman in the video to describe the ability to manage one's own emotions and impulses. This ability is part of emotional intelligence and is crucial for maintaining emotional balance, achieving personal goals, and managing stress effectively. Leaders with strong self-management skills can remain calm and clear-headed in challenging situations, enhancing their ability to make strategic decisions.

💡Neuroscience

Neuroscience is referenced by Goleman when discussing the brain's role in emotional processing and how understanding it contributes to the study of emotional intelligence. The video touches on how the brain's neural mechanisms underpin our emotional responses and the importance of neuroscience in developing techniques to manage these responses effectively.

💡Cognitive Empathy

Cognitive empathy is one of the three types of empathy described by Goleman in the video. It involves understanding how another person thinks and being able to communicate effectively with them based on this understanding. Cognitive empathy is crucial in leadership and interpersonal interactions as it aids in effective communication and understanding others' perspectives.

💡Resonant Leadership

Resonant Leadership is a concept Goleman discusses towards the end of the video, defined as the ability to emotionally connect with others, inspire and lead effectively. It involves creating an emotional resonance with followers, which boosts team morale and productivity. Leaders who can create resonance are typically more successful at motivating their teams and fostering a positive work environment.

💡Social-Emotional Learning

Social-Emotional Learning (SEL) is mentioned by Goleman as an educational application of emotional intelligence principles that teaches children in K-12 schools the essential skills of self-awareness, empathy, and conflict resolution. In the video, Goleman discusses how SEL programs prepare children to handle emotional and social challenges effectively, which is critical for their success in both school and later life.

Highlights

Daniel Goldman, renowned psychologist and New York Times best-selling author, shares insights on emotional intelligence and its application in leadership and the workplace.

Emotional intelligence encompasses empathy, self-awareness, self-management, and social skills, which are essential for personal and professional success.

Emotional intelligence is crucial for effective leadership, setting outstanding leaders apart from others, and creating a positive workplace environment.

Goldman emphasizes that emotional intelligence is learned and learnable, with feedback and real-time life experiences helping to improve it.

Empathy plays a critical role in emotional intelligence, with three types: cognitive, social brain, and empathic concern. Sociopaths lack empathic concern.

Emotional intelligence helps manage disturbing emotions while fostering positive ones, leading to better performance and adaptability in the workplace.

Naming a negative emotion helps shift energy from the emotional brain to the prefrontal cortex, aiding in managing emotions and reducing stress.

Breathing exercises can quickly calm the body and mind, transitioning from sympathetic nervous system arousal to a more relaxed state.

Mindfulness and meditation can help manage emotions by strengthening the brain's ability to focus and recover from stress.

Leaders with positive emotional states influence their team's emotions and performance, demonstrating the contagious nature of a leader's mood.

Goldman discusses practical techniques for managing negative emotions, including breathing exercises, mindfulness, and cognitive therapy.

Goldman outlines competencies of outstanding leaders, including emotional balance, adaptability, optimism, goal orientation, and conflict management.

To improve emotional intelligence, Goldman suggests getting feedback through 360 assessments, working with coaches or learning partners, and practicing at every opportunity.

Creating an emotionally intelligent organization requires ongoing support, feedback, and a focus on emotional intelligence development.

The Resident Leader concept emphasizes leaders who connect with and inspire others, resonating with their shared mission and fostering a positive emotional climate.

Transcripts

hello everyone welcome to another

episode of the future of work i am

joined today by daniel goldman the

father as he is known of emotional

intelligence he's a renowned

psychologist and new york times

best-selling author of several books

including emotional intelligence social

intelligence and primal leadership

daniel thank you for joining me today

jacob it's a real pleasure to be here

thank you for having me

of course of course um why don't we get

started with a little bit of background

information about you

i was

on your website and reading i think you

wrote like a long thing on there on your

website directly from you it talks about

your background and history which is

fascinating

uh so give us a little bit of background

about you how did you even get involved

with emotional intelligence and studying

this stuff

well i i do have a

phd in psychology from harvard actually

but

i ended up being a science journalist at

the new york times and i was covering

what they called the decade of the brain

this is a while ago when there was there

were a lot of new discoveries

particularly about emotions in the brain

and i wanted to write about that and by

the way i didn't invent the phrase

emotional intelligence i just made it

famous

the guy who invented the phrase is now

the president of yale university pete

peter salovey

with his then graduate student john

mayer

and i saw that they had written as an

article called emotional intelligence

in a very obscure journal my job at the

times was to look at all the journals

and see what's newsworthy what's

interesting what's relevant and then

make that an article in times and

i i thought wow emotional intelligence

what a great phrase it seems like

an oxymoron how can you have

intelligence and emotions but then

i realized

it means being intelligent about emotion

and so i i use that as the frame for the

book i wrote

emotional intelligence which became a

global bestseller it's in more than 40

languages

these days

and

that kind of launched another career for

me where i started going to companies

and organizations and schools i became

very big in schools under the name

social emotional learning which means

teaching kids k through 12

the basics of emotional intelligence

which are self-awareness

self-management empathy and social skill

and we all need those in to get along in

life and

actually it turns out to be outstanding

in the workplace

and i think as we go forward into the

future it's going to matter even more

was there something about this field of

study that

particularly intrigued you because as a

psychologist you could have gone into so

many different areas and specializations

why emotions

well we all have them all the time

it seems it seemed utterly relevant

even when we think we don't have them we

do have them

uh the brain is wired to

like to dislike to react continually

and this is part of a survival mechanism

in in our you know human history and

it's hard stamped in all of our brains

can't avoid it

yeah no

everybody does have emotions as you said

uh well we're going to talk about

emotional intelligence and leadership so

i thought it only makes sense to maybe

start with an explanation of both of

those things so first

i'm really curious to hear your take on

what is leadership or what does it mean

to be a leader how do you define that

i think that

having a sphere of influence means

you're a de facto leader

and in that sense i think we're all

leaders whether it's our family and

friends or

an organization with a formal title

it comes down to whether people listen

to you respect what you say

and are guided by what you say

so i think that leadership applies in

all spheres of life

okay and then how do you define or

explain emotional

intelligence well once i wrote about

emotional intelligence i

went back to my psychology

background

i started working with an old friend of

mine a colleague

richard boyatzis who's at the now case

weatherhead school management at uh

in

cleveland

and

at case western reserve

and

he and i

had been students of david mcclellan at

harvard

who was one of the people who developed

the idea of a competence a workplace

ability that makes you outstanding

compared to other people

and competencies can be learned and it

turns out that there's a set of about a

dozen competencies within the domain of

emotional intelligence that uh

are hallmarks of people who are the best

leaders so i've been working uh with

richard and others along those lines

since because it turns out that

emotional intelligence sets the best

leaders apart from others

and by the way this is interesting new

data even in areas you wouldn't think

it's true

engineers at a global manufacturing

company rated each other on how

effective

are

are these guys as engineers or are you

as an engineer it turned out that

engineers ratings of other engineers

effectiveness had zero correlation with

iq in a very high correlation with

emotional intelligence i love that you

mentioned new data because i always love

new data and research

that's you know fascinating example for

engineers

so emotional intelligence then like you

said is being intelligent and being

intelligent about your emotions

so if we put those things together an

emotionally intelligent leader would be

someone with a sphere of influence who

is intelligent about their emotions sure

okay

um

and

one thing that i'm always fascinated

about this topic is

is emotional intelligence something that

you learn or is it genetic and i asked

because i did a

23andme test a couple years ago

and through 23andme you can take all the

data and download it and put it into

something called prometheus which

basically does all this you know looks

at the genes and all this

all that stuff in there

and uh my wife and i were laughing

because we were looking at my

genetics and it basically said

um

you might be missing an empathy gene and

so you might

you might not be good at empathy based

on your genetics and i was like

yeah yeah and i was like wait a minute

is that is that a thing

so it really just made me wonder is

is this

a genetic thing or is this something we

can all learn

so emotional intelligence is learned and

learnable and i think 23andme is

overselling what they know

because everything is a combination of

nature and nurture you get your genetic

makeup but that doesn't limit you that's

what you start with

and so for example for empathy

uh

it's

it's definitely learnable you can

definitely amp it up but you need

feedback you need life experience need

to

realize that when i assume such and such

about how she was feeling or he was

feeling it was right or was wrong

that's how you get better at this

so

feedback

in real time is very important for

enhancing emotional intelligence

abilities across the board

and i

you know some people

may

on a 23andme type test

look like they have

a good empathy basis but that's just

where they start

your life experience is going to

determine where you end up

no i love that and i actually remember

seeing

some study or some research that

basically said even sociopaths can be

emotionally intelligent like you can you

can still practice these things and um

and implement them even if you have you

know are clinically a sociopath well

here's here's the problem with that

uh there are three kinds of empathy each

of which is based on a different set of

brain circuits

there's cognitive empathy i know how you

think about things i know the words to

use to communicate with you effectively

there's social brain

empathy which means i feel what you feel

a sociopath can have those two kinds of

empathy

and

make his or her way in the world pretty

well what they lack is the third kind

it's called empathic concern

and it's based in the mammalian

caretaking circuitry it's basically a

parent's love for a child

and it means i care about you sociopaths

don't have that by definition they just

don't care

about their victims

interesting i did not know that

uh so when we think about emotional

intelligence how many which which

emotions go into that i know you've

written about this extensively

um so what are the emotions that go into

that intelligence uh grouping

uh every emotion you've ever felt

anything and so yes anger disgust

sadness all of that as a partner however

here's what emotional intelligence tells

you

if you're in a negative emotional state

it

because the way the brain is wired

you're narrowing the bandwidth of your

other capabilities your cognitive

abilities whatever talents you may have

because emotions

the way the brain is designed and wired

take up a huge amount of space in fact

emotional distractions that thing she

said to me that got me so upset

are far stronger than external

distractions it's going to cop your

intelligence your

attention continually

so emotional intelligence helps you

manage disturbing emotions and it also

encourages you

to have positive emotions to have an

optimistic outlook so they call it a

growth mindset these days you know

i can get better other people can get

better

uh you don't feel that way when you're

entrapped by a negative emotion it helps

you keep your eye on your goals

no matter what else is going on because

we all need to do it helps you adapt

helps you be agile

we absolutely need to do that these are

all competencies by the way of

outstanding leaders and they're based on

emotional intelligence abilities because

people leaders need to first lead

themselves and that means manage your

inner life

then you can lead others you can tune

into them with empathy

and then this is really important

it turns out that a leader's emotional

state

is contagious it leaks out to the people

around them it's just very natural

for people to pay most attention to and

put most importance on what the most

powerful people person in the room says

and does

so the leader's emotions affect

other people's emotions

and not only that that in turn drives

performance so if the leader is in a

negative state people catch that

negative state their performance goes

down

if they're in a but the leaders in a

positive state pretty enthusiastic

energetic people catch that their

performance goes up so it it's not just

a private thing

leaders should know that their

state their interstate is going to leak

that's part of their leadership is

managing themselves

so can you just always fake being in a

positive state can you just show up all

the time like hey how's it going like

i'm great everything's fine

because there's also this talk of um

wanting more transparency and more

authenticity and

you know we want that from leaders right

if you're upset tell us if you're

frustrated tell us but that also seems

counterintuitive to the whole idea of if

you're always positive and optimistic

it's going to improve performance it

rubs off onto others

so should i as a leader

show my frustrations if i'm upset too

i think authentic is the key word here

uh if you fake it

people might

sense that pretty easily

that you're always upbeat even when

you're really down

so i think it's better to clear the air

and say you know

i really had a bad time with the kids

this morning they just wouldn't get

ready for school

and i'm a little bummed about it because

by naming it this is really interesting

it turns out that the brain is arranged

so that if you name a negative emotion

it already takes energy from that state

and it shifts it to the

prefrontal cortex which is the brain's

boss the ceo of the brain it helps you

manage emotions so if you talk about it

just by the act of talking about it

you're managing it

i am terrible at that uh

i am not good at talking about my

emotions at all my wife right here

should jump in and be like yeah he sucks

at that

um

so i'm trying to get better of like

saying i'm tired i'm stressed i'm

frustrated i'm angry i'm unhappy

uh

yeah i'm genuinely not good at those

things at all so i'm trying to to work

on those things because i agree i think

it's important and when i say it i feel

a little bit better

about myself and i can talk about these

things with my wife or members of my

team so i i think there's a lot of value

and like you said naming that emotion i

also think it's interesting though for a

lot of um traditional things like iq

it seems like in those areas sometimes

it's easier to manipulate or fake

something but when it comes to emotion

we're very good at picking up

when somebody's faking it or being not

authentic

it's it's weird it's like something is

as humans has embedded us or we can just

pick up

yeah i think that we have radar for

example

we read facial we read emotions from

facial expressions do you know the

difference between a fake smile and a

real smile

is it the

under the eyes is it the it's the crow

it's the crow's up because yeah so uh

crow's feet when when we're really happy

at first you're gonna have the crow's

feet but then as you hold it you're

starting to fake it

and they disappear

i think that our brain is wired to

notice these little subtle cues

and to start wondering does he really

mean it does she is she faking this or

not

yeah no it's it's crazy it's like built

into us it's very weird

so what a lot of people think about

emotional intelligence you know the two

that

come to mind especially for leaders is

usually empathy and self-awareness right

uh putting yourself in somebody else's

shoes and perspective and

understanding

your self-awareness and how other people

perceive you

besides those i feel like maybe a lot of

people might not be aware of some of the

other

important emotions specifically for

leaders and you were talking about some

of the things that great leaders do so i

thought maybe we could expand on that a

little bit going beyond just empathy and

self-awareness to looking at some of the

other things that are crucial too yes so

i look at it in terms of the

competencies that you find in

outstanding leaders and star performers

and it doesn't it turns out it doesn't

have to do with their emotions we all

have the full range of emotions but how

well you manage it self-management

emotional balance turns out to be a

competence of outstanding leaders

uh other self-management competencies

and

self self management means handling

disturbing emotions so they don't

what you're doing

and

fostering positive emotions that help

you do what you're doing so

others are as i said adaptability

being able to be flexible and meeting

challenges as they come

being able to

stay positive no matter what happens

and

you know to look on bright on the bright

side about yourself about other people

about situations

uh and

these are and then keeping your eye on

the goal

no matter what the distractions my god

there's so many distractions these days

infinite but still are you doing what's

most important in the long term this is

a question to ask yourself so those are

the self-management competencies

and then

empathy knowing what other people are

feeling

lets you for example

be a good team member team player lead a

team well

be able to influence people effectively

guide them

give them performance feedback as needed

here's one that you may not think of

being able to inspire people to

articulate a shared sense of meaning or

purpose in what we're doing here that

resonates with other people that is

creates an extremely positive emotional

climate huge positive motivation

people feel their work is meaningful

and then being able to handle conflicts

to

surface them before they explode for

example

these are all abilities of outstanding

leaders and by the way no one leader is

outstanding at all of them we have

profiles we're better or worse at some

of them

richard boyances who i mentioned before

and i have designed

uh an assessment it's called the

emotional social competence inventory

that where people who know you well rate

you

on these competencies of outstanding

leaders and you get a profile then you

can decide oh well maybe i'll work on my

influence i'll work on managing my

emotions

but that's up to you

but it's helpful to get

uh

authentic real feedback from people who

know you well and who you trust

on what your strengths are and what you

could be better at

why can't you just be really good at

your job

why do you need emotional intelligence

because

i think we've seen

you know the last 10

25 years

i feel like a lot of leaders have gotten

into very successful positions that were

not emotionally intelligent and you know

a lot of people work for these types of

leaders our engagement scores are so low

around the world

so somebody might say well you know why

do i need emotional intelligence

my leader's not emotional intelligent

look how successful he or she is

why should i be doing this stuff yeah

there's a huge problem with the fact

that people got promoted to leadership

positions because they were good at a

task

task however it turned out they were

hollowing out the human capital people

hate those kind of bosses

this is the problem and now there's what

they call the great resignation

people are resigning right and left and

one of the main reasons people leave is

i can't stand my boss

so

you may be good at a job in terms of the

objective measures of the job i'm really

good at programming i'm really good but

it turns out

that it's all done with people

and if you're the leader of people you

need emotional intelligence to work well

with the people you're leading it's just

a fact and it very interesting data you

say you're interested in new data yes a

study

that showed that people

high-level executives

said emotional intelligence is extremely

important to leadership

like ninety percent

new hires people new to their career say

oh no it doesn't matter it's all tech

skills in other words there's a learning

curve over the course of a career where

you see oh you know what it does matter

uh so people may think

particularly coming out of an academic

situation because in academics it's all

cognitive

it's all how well did you do on the test

uh you know how what was your gpa how

well it was your what were your gres

whatever it may be

but once you get in the workplace it's

how well you work with other people and

no matter how smart you are that's not

going to help

i know there's also this this big debate

between uh iq and

there was this big debate between iq and

eq and everybody

uh you know we did iq tests all the time

i i remember i had to do an iq test when

i was very young and it was like well if

you want to get into a good school

what's your iq nobody ever

tested me for eq nobody talked about my

emotions it was just like yeah what's

your iq score

um and so there's always this big kind

of debate right and it feels like these

two things are oftentimes pitted against

each other do you need iq or eq what's

more important

however

they operate differently

um you need a certain level of cognitive

ability

to be a lawyer to be an accountant to

get an mba or a master's degree you need

about a standard deviation above the

norm which is around

11415 but it's very interesting there's

a floor effect which means that everyone

else who's in a position that you're in

has about the same iq

yeah and

what distinguishes people

is their emotional intelligence

some people may have a lot some people

may have little they may have critical

elements of it

it turns out that over the course of

your career

what's going to make the difference as

to whether you're an outstanding leader

not just an average one or one who

drives people away is your emotional

intelligence i have a friend

claudio fernandez arose he used to be

the head of research at egon's end or a

big executive recruitment firm and he

said

we looked at people we had hired who

were then fired they looked great on

paper

they had real expertise a lot of

business experience

but we found invariably when they were

fired it was because of a lapse in

emotional intelligence

yeah that's interesting

uh can you have one and not the other so

for example can you be very high on eq

and low on iq

and can you have very high iq and very

low eq and

maybe you could talk about how that kind

of a person would function in the world

depending on if you're very high on one

or very high on the other

well someone with high emotional

intelligence

and not very high iq might still be very

good in sales for example they might be

very good in

any situation that relies on

relationships because

their emotional intelligence would make

them very gifted there

uh they may might need to work with

someone else who knows the basics you

know the specifics

but they could have very good

relationships with clients and customers

someone who had very high iq

and very low emotional intelligence

might be very good in a position where

they were working with numbers by

themselves

or coding by themselves

but more and more work is done these

days on teams

and

they would have a problem when it came

to getting along with team members

i saw some data that suggested that

people who had a very very high iq

were not actually very good leaders

because they didn't know how to talk to

people they didn't know how to

communicate they were

too abstract because that's the way they

think and they assumed other people

would be there with them but so they

they had a breakdown in communication

it's funny i remember um oh man when did

i read this this must have been three

years ago and it was on hbr

and i referenced this in in my book as

well and it said that one of the things

that i think managers it was either that

one of the things that they are not good

at or felt most uncomfortable doing

was having one-on-one conversations with

their team members

which i found to be

weird because if you are leading others

part of your role is to have one-on-one

conversations with

your team members exactly

and it said that that was one of the

things that managers felt most

uncomfortable doing like they just did

not want to have those conversations

uh so it's interesting that you

mentioned conversation because i think i

mean part of being a you need to be a

good communicator right i'm sure

emotional intelligence is a big part of

it

one of the competencies

excuse me one of the competencies that

we found

in outstanding leaders high performing

leaders

is being a coach or mentor

which means you have to have a

one-on-one conversation you have to get

to know the person

yeah and it turns out that

having that conversation creates a very

positive feeling in the person you have

it with they have immense loyalty they

feel seen they feel heard

so it makes a big difference so the data

that you saw in in hbr

suggests to me that a lot of managers

need to get better at the coaching of

competence

because the people they're leading would

really

feel good about it they would feel

my manager cares about my career

development my manager cares about me

and

that means that i'm going to care about

my manager and i'm going to want to give

my best not just do just good enough you

mentioned disengagement is very low i

see those two things as connected

yep

well when i interviewed so for my recent

book i was engaging in his highs

disengagement is high yeah

so i interviewed 140 ceos uh from my

recent book the future leader and i

asked all of them about

what are the most crucial mindsets and

skill sets that you think current uh and

aspiring leaders need to have so there

were four mindsets and five skills

and one of the skills they identified

was actually the skill of the coach like

you mentioned helping make other people

more successful so there's definitely a

lot of alignment there

um

you mentioned this idea of managing

emotions this is also something i am

admittedly not that great at so i

thought we could give um

listeners and viewers some guidance and

feedback on

on how to do that

um so where do you begin and i suppose

you also need to manage

the bad emotions but you also need to

manage the good emotions and i think of

myself for example as an entrepreneur

and when i first became an entrepreneur

you know you close your first project or

your first deal and you get that you get

that emotional high right

but you need to manage that too because

it's very tempting to be like oh my god

i got my first project i'm gonna go

spend all my money i'm gonna like you

know party

so you have to manage the highs and also

the lows interesting

so

how do you go about managing your

emotions whether they're positive or

negative in the workplace

it's interesting that we use the term

emotional balance

yeah or this ability because you need to

balance it

uh you know you you don't want to be

manic

and when something good happens you feel

ecstatic and you're going to like blow

all your money

you need to manage that of course

but on the other hand

that is i would say a

less common far less

common the negative emotions

nothing's happening this isn't working

i'm no good this kind of thinking which

creates anxiety it creates depression i

think people more often are challenged

by handling their negative emotions

and i'll give you three methods if you'd

like

yes please

one is well tested it's actually used by

special forces it's used all over the

place it has to it's a quick way to go

from uh being upset it's called

sympathetic nervous system arousal

to be to recovery mode parasympathetic

nervous system arousal

and it's a simple breathing technique

where you inhale as long as you can

like a count of four at least

inhale deeply

hold it as long as you can at least a

count of four

and then you exhale as long as you can

and it turns out if you do that six to

nine times it actually shifts

your physiology

from being upset to being relaxed

that's one interesting thing to do on

the spot

just breathing that's fascinating

another thing you can do on the spot as

i mentioned earlier is name what's going

on

i'm getting anxious now

or to yourself or to another person uh

i'm getting angry now

the the fact that you can name it

suggests that you're shifting the energy

from the part of the brain that feels it

to the part of the brain that manages it

and the third thing you can do is uh

kind of as a mindfulness practice

i don't know if you've talked about

mindfulness on your show jacob

i have yes yeah but it turns out i i

just

i did a book recently with richard

davidson who's a neuroscientist at the

university of wisconsin where we

reviewed all of the good studies sound

the most sound studies on meditation and

mindfulness

and we found that you know what it's

it's mind training it's training the

brain it really works

and uh if you practice mindfulness

you know 10 minutes 20 minutes a day

what it does

is

strengthen the part of your brain that

manages negative emotion

so that you are triggered less often

when you're triggered it's less strong

and you recover more quickly the actual

definition of resilience in cognitive

science is how long it takes you to go

from the peak of upset

back to calm

and the quicker that curve

the more resilient you are

so mindfulness enhances calmness it also

it's a twofer because the same circuitry

helps you focus it enhances

concentration

so

i i recommend a simple breath meditation

i don't know if you want me to go

through the instructions please

yes but uh here's what you do

it's really simple there's no belief

system required it's just simple mind

training

and bring your focus to your breath you

can close your eyes sit up so you're

you're in a

relaxed but dignified posture it helps

you stay more attentive you bring your

attention to your breath

and stay with the full in-breath and the

full out breath

the space between breaths and then start

with the next breath the full in-breath

the full out breath

it's that simple you just keep your

attention on your breath if you there's

a place you can feel the sensation or

the rise and fall of your belly with

each breath

when your mind wanders and it's going to

wander and you notice it wandered bring

it back to your breath and start again

with the next breath it's that simple

the real action here is when you notice

that your mind wandered and you bring it

back

because that strengthens the circuitry

for staying focused and ignoring

distractions

and that's going to be the first payoff

for you very gradually you'll notice i

can focus on my work and i'm less

distractible now

you'll also notice slowly and gradually

that you're more calm

but

there's a dose response relationship

here the more you do it the better the

effects will be so if you want to start

with

five minutes or ten minutes a day great

whatever you'll do there's a saying the

best meditation the best mindfulness is

the one you'll do

whatever that may be

and you may have to you know move around

things in your daily schedule so

to make this a priority it's like going

to the gym every time you bring your

mind back your strength in the circuitry

it's but it's

exactly like going to the gym and

lifting a weight every time you do a rep

yeah you make that muscle that much

stronger

so make time for it and give it priority

in your day

if you want to have the effect

whatever you bring to work to help you

be you workplace from facebook

celebrates it their familiar features

help everyone work together in new ways

to make your place of work a great place

to work visit

workplace.com forward slash human

that's workplace dot com forward slash

human

yeah my wife is very good at meditation

and um

and just breathing and

just understanding that stuff and

one of the things i've always struggled

with when i try to do that is my mind is

just like a

ping pong ball it's like a just ping

ping ping ping ping

and as soon as i close my eyes i'm just

like whoa like

million thoughts popped into my head

i gotta open my eyes because otherwise

i'm just like going nuts over here

um

but i think you're right it's like

exercise right the first time you go to

the gym you're like

yeah i can't do this this is too hard

but it's the same with meditation same

with mindfulness the reason you think

your mind is like that

and i can't do this is because your

mind's always like that you just never

noticed

so when you try to

bring your mind to one place the fact

that it wanders all over

it becomes really stark

and many people get discouraged at the

outset for exactly that reason jacob

they think oh gosh my mind's like a

ping-pong ball it's all over the joint

but

the more you stay with it the more you

bring your mind back the less true that

becomes but at the beginning it's going

to be like that don't let it down

okay so it sounds like

to manage negative emotions let's say

you're an employee at a company you just

had a terrible meeting with your manager

or a client uh meeting didn't go well

you're feeling very upset frustrated

probably just take some time you do that

breathing exercise that we talked about

in the beginning

is step one

step two you would name that emotion

basically like i feel disappointed i

feel frustrated my manager didn't have

my back or you know the client

chewed me out for not doing something

the right way

and then number three is that kind of

the the mindfulness piece you know the

meditation piece if you want to call it

that i'll give you number four

yes

it's it's taken from cognitive therapy

you may be catastrophizing because you

had that bad interaction you may think

oh man i'm no good at this i'm going to

lose my job

that's extra

and

the good thing

that cognitive therapy points out is you

do not have to believe your thoughts

interesting you think it but it

think think twice about that

because you're going to an extreme

you're making assumptions it may not be

true in fact you may be very good at

your job in most ways

remind yourself of that at the moment

that you're telling yourself you're no

good at it and

talk back to the negative self-talk

it's funny you mentioned that the first

visual that popped into my head when you

said you don't have to believe your

thoughts is uh

uh an episode from seinfeld

where uh george costanza is trying to or

no jerry's trying to take a lie detector

test

and uh

george costanza is trying to give him

some advice and he's like uh you know

it's it's not a lie if you believe it

so basically

you know you can go against your

thoughts if you believe it it's not a

lot so it reminded me of that where

just because you think it doesn't mean

you have to

actually believe it

yeah as much as i admire george costanza

he's a lovable character in some ways

harassable in others

i'm not sure that was really good advice

that he gave me his friend no i would i

would not want to emulate the life of

george costanza

um

okay so those are i think four fantastic

uh

tips or strategies that people can use

to kind of combat that

the negative emotions

does that ever happen where those four

don't work

and you're just still

just going nuts um and you're just up

you know

inconsolable so to speak like is

is there like a a backup or a safety

library if those things aren't working

out for you you know um

i mentioned richard boyances he and i do

a lot of work together we just develop

something called the personal

sustainability index

which is a way of looking at all the

things in your life that stress you out

that upset you

and then all the things in your life

that balance that that help you recover

because what you're saying is that the

emergency

methods didn't work for you

and you're staying pretty stressed out

the question is what can you do

that will counter that i mean uh maybe

you go for a walk in the woods or maybe

you

talk to your best buddy or maybe you

uh play with a kid

in other words there are lots of things

you can do that put you in a positive

state

now the critical question is day in and

day out do you have enough of those to

balance the times when you just can't

take it anymore yeah and uh so we we

give people a menu of that

maybe do you have show notes jacob maybe

you can put that in the notes yeah yeah

no definitely we'll have a description

when we put all this up so yeah i'll get

some links for you to include

uh it sounds like one of the

biggest mistakes that leaders and maybe

individuals can make is to try to power

through things uh you know we've all

kind of experienced that right when

um

things aren't going your way when you

you feel bad or you're unhappy and

you're just like i just gotta power

through it i just gotta be that tank and

act like nothing's bothering me it seems

like that

is not a good way to go um when you're

dealing with some unhappy emotions

you need to pause and reflect and

take time to acknowledge them

yeah i would agree with that but i would

also say don't give up your goal

keep your eye on the goal

just because it didn't work this time

doesn't mean it won't work the next time

yeah so

acknowledge what happened and oh man

that felt so bad

but i still want to do this i'm still

working toward that

okay keep going

yeah

what do you do if you work for a leader

who's not

emotionally

intelligent i get this question all the

time i'm sure you do

um lots of employees who are just like

you know what

the stuff that daniel's talking about is

great i wish

my leader would practice these things

but they don't

and

you know what am i going to do

so i'm often asked this question i'll

give you a couple of answers one is

i i i'll give you a caution do not tell

your leader you have no eq

don't

they suck at this

okay because that's going to backfire on

you however

if you have an ally who is able to talk

to your boss

someone that your boss respects who you

can talk to openly

and who might suggest to your boss that

they

could do better in this realm and help

them

go ahead with that if you have that

situation

then there's kind of a

flippant answer but sometimes it works

which is get your boss's resume and send

it out to an executive recruiter

they might get a good job somewhere else

yeah and i think that's actually

important because there's nothing that

says you have to work for a leader who's

not emotionally intelligent

uh because that can be very frustrating

it can be very disengaging it can be

tolerant actually

yeah and life is short right you why

would you want to spend time working for

this kind of a person who doesn't

acknowledge uh that this is how they are

and doesn't want to change

but so you're saying not to tell your

leader that they're not emotionally

intelligent but

is it possible to have a conversation

with them directly

uh in a in a certain way or is it just

like a typical

let me restate that if you're skilled if

you have enough of a relationship with

the boss

where the boss will listen to you and

respect what you say

uh actually i think that boss is

probably emotionally intelligent

i have a stereotype of people who aren't

which in my mind makes them closed to

that kind of conversation but if you

have the possibility and you're good at

how you put things and you don't do it

in an accusatory way but you say you

know

you might be better at x if you did y

and your boss would listen to you sure

go ahead

how do you create emotional

intelligence in others so maybe you're a

leader and you want members of your team

to be emotionally intelligent or your

peers i'm just doing an article for the

harvard business review on how to create

an emotionally intelligent organization

and it turns out that the biggest

uh

biggest improvement in emotional

intelligence

doesn't come in trying to hire for it

that's very dicey

but rather in helping people develop it

and there's a lot of methodologies

for developing emotional intelligence

that are used in corporations in

organizations now

so i would say

uh to help people find a program that

works for them or a coach

if you're at a certain level in the

organization that may

work out too from a payback point of

view

but as i said it's all learned and

learnable there are four or five basic

steps one is

you ask yourself or ask the person do

you really care

because if the answer is no you can stop

right there

yeah because it's going to take a little

effort it's going to take some time

the next thing is to get a good

evaluation

whether it's from

you know talking to people

or this emotional social competence

inventory something like that a 360

where people evaluate you anonymously

and you get the

information aggregated so you don't know

who said what then people can be much

more open with you

yeah and then um

uh

have someone you can work with who's

going to help you whether it's a coach

or someone leading

this development effort

someone you can talk to when you have a

bad day

having having learning partners but also

someone to support you and also

practicing at every naturally occurring

opportunity that's really going to make

a difference

you mentioned there were some

methodologies that organizations use to

instill emotional intelligence can you

share maybe what some of those are

well as i mentioned some

organizations at the top of the house

will have people coached

and booch can work with you

there's a

i'm starting a group the

goldman consulting group to help

corporations bring

learning teams

really uh help people get better

but do it

with a group you select for yourself

people who give you feedback people you

work with people you like

who will form a team to help you improve

is it to help your talents get better

those are two methodologies there are

some methodologies that are proven not

to work one is called spray and pray

where you have an expert come in for two

hours and talk about this and

you know how great it is and then leave

and then you get no support because it

takes ongoing practice however you can

do it

yeah

how do you tell

if someone has emotional intelligence or

if you have emotional intelligence are

there specific signs that you look out

for

one of them uh

is pretty intuitive

which is is this person liked

people who are most intelligent tend to

be likeable you know people get along

with them they get along with people

does this person

you know vent

constantly vent negative emotions that

suggest they're not very good at it

uh does this person seem to know how

other people see them it's another sign

of emotional intelligence

uh in other words you look for signs

does it when i'm with this person and

talking to this person do they care

about me do i feel seen and heard that's

another one

okay

well we only have a couple minutes left

so just a few more questions for you um

and one of them is can you show too much

emotion at work there's a lot of talk

about emotional intelligence

but

some people believe well if you know if

you just walk around work all day just

showing all your emotions that's

probably also not that great either

so how do you balance uh

how

authentic or transparent or emotional

you are i talked about managing emotions

one of the ways someone who's authentic

might manage emotions is by saying what

they're feeling

but not venting

not going around like tearing their hair

all day or upsetting other people

that's someone who is i would say overly

emotional in the wrong way

someone who feels very upbeat and very

enthusiastic and shares that with people

i think that's fine i think that's good

i think it helps the emotional

atmosphere the emotional climate of the

workplace

so i would say it depends what emotion

you're showing all the time if it's a

downbeat emotions not so great manage

that internally manage it yourself

manage it with

someone you can talk to

but if it's a positive emotion let it

out

and it's interesting that emotional

intelligence is not about

showing your emotions as you said it's

about being intelligent

about your emotions that's a

big difference between just showing

versus being intelligent about them

um maybe one of the last questions for

you i think there are a lot of myths

about emotional intelligence

you know what they are how to practice

them

are there some common myths that you

keep hearing about emotional

intelligence that you want people to not

believe

yeah one of them is that iq doesn't

matter only emotional intelligence iq

matters

to a degree but you need both it's not

either or

the other

big myth is that emotional intelligence

matters and iq or cognitive abilities or

cognitive talents don't that's a myth

they both matter um okay

um and are there any particular leaders

that you can point to that you think are

emotionally intelligent that maybe our

viewers or listeners might wanna

emulate or learn more about you know i

think the dalai lama is a great example

of someone who's mostly intelligent

he's not a business leader but he's

definitely a world leader

uh i think that um there probably are

some

uh

ceos who might be emotionally

intelligent but i don't know any of them

well enough to say for sure yeah

and last question for you just because

uh this is something you talked about in

one of your recent books uh the concept

of the resident leader

and i know that's a whole big topic but

i thought we could just tease a tiny

little bit of it

so that people can

learn more about what that means and who

that kind of a leader is yeah the

resident leader is one that people

feel connected to who articulates as i

said a shared mission that really moves

people

so that they resonate with

with what the leader says and does

a leader who

is influential in an easy way who gives

feedback in an ongoing way

that people can actually use it's like

news to use not just an attack on a

person

people who manage themselves well

and who empathize who tune in to other

people who know how other people are

are feeling and and can respond

accordingly there's a set of primers by

the way on all these competencies it's

called building blocks of emotional

intelligence

if you want to learn more about empathy

or about influence about inspiring or

emotional balance

you might want to get

some of these

and i'm assuming that's just something

somebody can google just building blocks

emotional intelligence

from keystep media

okay all right i'll try to link to that

too

okay

um

well and then it sounds like to practice

emotional intelligence we're not talking

about

crazy commitments here right small

things that people can do on a regular

basis to become more emotionally

intelligent which it sounds like um

that's what you're advocating for

it's like life it's a work in progress

yeah

i love it uh well daniel where can

people go to learn more about you and

your work i know you have a podcast with

your son which is amazing uh so anything

that you want to mention for people to

check out sure uh the podcast is called

first person singular

and it's on all the podcast venues

first person singular

emotional intelligence and beyond is the

full name

i have a newsletter at linkedin which is

free to subscribe to

and one of the things i'm i'm talking

about these days is misconceptions about

emotional intelligence as well as latest

kind of breaking news on emotional

intelligence so there's a linkedin

newsletter

we're going to be setting up

goldman consulting group i don't think

there's a website yet but there's about

to be

and

i have my own website daniel

goldman dot info wwe danielgome and

oneword.info

and you just google me i'm i'm on the

web

yeah you're pretty easy to find are you

working on another book by any chance

uh yes but i'm not exactly sure what i'm

going to say yet so it will be related

to this article i'm doing

for harvard business review on building

an emotional intelligent organization

all right very cool we will stay tuned

to that

daniel again thank you so much for

taking time out of your day i love the

tips and this is such an important topic

so appreciate you sharing your insights

with us jacob you're very easy to talk

to i suspect you have more emotional

intelligence than you allow or that you

know

i'm gonna

cut that clip and i'm gonna i'm gonna

play that to everybody so when somebody

says anything yeah i'll say you know

what daniel goldman actually said i have

some

well thank you again so much for taking

time out of your day and thanks everyone

for tuning in my guest again daniel

goldman all you gotta do is google his

name you'll find out pretty much

anything that you need to know about him

check out his books and check out his

podcast and i will see all of you next

time thanks again for tuning in to the

show and don't forget to go to

sixleadershiptrends.com

to grab a copy of my brand new pdf which

is going to walk you through the six

trends that are shaping leadership and

what it means to be a leader and it will

also give you action items for what you

should be doing for each one of these

six trends to adapt and evolve so that

you can be a better leader in the future

of work again that is six

leadershiptrends.com you can either

spell out the number six in the url or

just use the number six in the url they

will both take you to the same place

thanks again for tuning in