Pieter Levels — The Indie Hacker’s Guide to AI Startups

Summary

在这段对话中，独立创业者Pieter Levels和主持人探讨了独立黑客文化的现状，以及AI初创公司所面临的挑战。Pieter分享了他对于独立黑客运动已死的看法，认为尽管独立黑客文化已经变得主流，竞争更加激烈，但机会仍然存在。他讨论了自己如何通过Twitter建立观众群体，以及在AI领域创业的经历，包括如何处理平台风险和与大型科技公司的竞争。此外，Pieter还提到了他对于远程工作和数字游民生活方式的看法，以及他如何在不断变化的技术和社交媒体环境中适应和创新。整个对话提供了对于独立创业、AI技术发展和社交媒体影响力构建的深刻见解。

Takeaways

• 🌐 独立黑客并未消亡，只是与过去有所不同，现在更加竞争激烈和饱和。
• 💡 AI 初创公司的兴起带来了新的挑战，如缺乏独特性和高成本。
• 🚀 利用现有技术进行创新仍然是可行的，即使在 AI 时代。
• 🛠️ 技术的选择并不比使用它们解决问题更重要，简单和快速的执行往往比使用最佳工具更关键。
• 🔄 创业初期，重要的是快速验证想法，而不是过分关注代码的完美。
• 📈 创业项目的成功往往取决于市场需求和验证，而不仅仅是产品的外观。
• 🌐 社交媒体平台的变化对内容创作者提出了新的挑战，需要适应新的传播方式。
• 🤖 AI 作为工具，可以帮助人们更有效地完成任务，但也可能取代某些工作。
• 🌍 数字游民生活方式依然活跃，但可能逐渐转向在特定季节前往特定地区。
• 💭 社交媒体上的争议性言论可以吸引关注，但也可能导致负面反应。
• 🔄 经济和社会文化周期的变化带来了新的机遇和挑战，重要的是适应和重塑自己。

Q & A

独立黑客（Indie hacking）的概念在Pieter Levels看来已经发生了怎样的变化？

Pieter Levels认为独立黑客的概念已经从2014年左右开始流行，当时很多人通过Product Hunt这样的平台进行创业。但现在，这个概念已经被大型科技公司所关注，变得主流化，竞争也变得更加激烈。因此，他认为独立黑客不再是一个边缘的、亚文化的事物，而是变成了一种标准的创业方式。

为什么Pieter Levels认为在当前环境下，独立黑客的创业方式变得更加困难？

Levels指出，现在不仅是独立黑客之间的竞争，还要面对大型科技公司的竞争。这些大公司有资源快速复制独立开发者的创意。此外，随着AI技术的兴起，即使是小规模的独立AI创业公司也需要面对那些已经筹集了数亿美元资金的大型AI创业公司的竞争。

Pieter Levels提到了哪些因素导致了AI创业公司面临的挑战？

Levels提到了多个因素，包括高成本的GPU服务器、平台依赖性、技术缺乏独占性（如使用相同的AI模型和框架）、以及AI创业公司的高流失率和缺乏防御性。他还提到了经济衰退对融资的影响，以及AI技术发展迅速导致的快速饱和市场。

在讨论中，Levels提到了他如何通过手动工作来验证他的AI创业想法，这是怎样的一个过程？

Levels描述了他最初是如何手动处理订单的，包括下载客户的照片、使用AI平台进行图像处理，然后将结果照片发送回客户。这个过程非常耗时，但他通过这种方式验证了市场需求，并在一周内实现了流程的自动化。

Levels如何看待社交媒体平台，如Twitter，对于独立黑客和AI创业公司的作用？

Levels认为Twitter是一个重要的平台，可以用来建立观众群体和社交证明。他提到了自己如何通过Twitter来推广他的产品，并且观察到有机营销和SEO对于初创公司的重要性。他还提到了TikTok作为一个新兴平台，可能对年轻一代的AI创业公司更具吸引力。

在讨论中，Levels提到了他对于AI技术未来的乐观态度，他的理由是什么？

Levels认为AI技术将带来积极的变化，他强调了AI的益处，并认为应该关注如何利用AI技术使人类未来更好。他还提到了政府应该提供基本收入，以保护人们不受技术发展带来的负面影响。

Levels在讨论中提到了他对于使用老旧技术的看法，他是如何看待技术的Lindy效应的？

Levels提到了Nassim Taleb的Lindy效应，即技术之所以经得起时间的考验，是因为它老旧且可靠。他认为，尽管新技术可能看起来很吸引人，但它们往往更复杂，而且不够稳定。他倾向于使用那些经过时间考验的技术，因为它们简单、有效且可靠。

Levels在讨论中提到了他对于独立黑客和AI创业公司的看法，那么他对于想要进入这个领域的人有什么建议？

Levels建议新入行的独立黑客应该尝试使用新技术，并且要快速行动以抓住技术浪潮。他还建议创业者应该寻找市场上未被充分服务的领域，避免与大众随波逐流，并且要准备好长期投入和不断学习。

在讨论中，Levels提到了他对于社交媒体平台变化的适应，他是如何调整自己的策略的？

Levels观察到Twitter的算法变化使得某些类型的内容更容易获得关注，比如长篇文章和视频。因此，他开始在Twitter上发布更长的文章，以此来适应平台的变化，并保持与观众的互动。

Levels在讨论中提到了他对于AI创业公司的盈利模式和成本控制的看法，他如何看待AI创业公司的盈利前景？

Levels认为AI创业公司的盈利前景与其能够多快地削减成本有关。他提到了AI创业公司的估值通常很高，但是如果不能有效控制成本，那么高估值就没有意义。他还提到了需要在达到一定盈利水平后考虑出售公司。

Levels在讨论中提到了他对于远程工作和数字游民生活方式的看法，他如何看待这种生活方式的未来？

Levels认为远程工作和数字游民生活方式将继续存在，但他也提到了这种生活方式可能对个人心理健康的挑战。他预测人们可能会选择在几个固定的地方之间移动，而不是不断地更换地点，特别是当他们有家庭和孩子的时候。

Levels在讨论中提到了他对于社交媒体上争议性话题的处理方式，他是如何应对社交媒体上的批评和争议的？

Levels认为社交媒体上的争议性话题是一种游戏，他选择保持真实和诚实，即使这可能导致争议。他提到了如何处理社交媒体上的批评，包括不让人们的意见影响自己的真实想法，并从反馈中学习和调整自己的观点。

Outlines

00:00

😀 独立黑客的兴衰与AI创业的挑战

Pieter Levels作为嘉宾，讨论了独立黑客文化的现状，以及AI创业的挑战。他提到独立黑客已经从小众文化变成了主流，竞争更加激烈，也更加困难。同时，他分享了自己在AI领域的创业经历，包括如何面对大科技公司的竞争，以及处理平台风险的策略。

05:02

🚀 AI创业的商业现实与成本挑战

Pieter讨论了AI创业的商业现实，特别是成本问题。他指出，尽管AI技术的普及使得进入门槛降低，但同时也导致了利润率的下降。他还提到了GPU成本的上升对AI创业的影响，以及如何通过更换供应商来应对成本上升的问题。

10:05

🤔 独立创业者的技术与市场适应

在这一段落中，Pieter反思了自己作为独立创业者的局限性，特别是在技术领域。他讨论了如何通过外包和雇佣AI开发者来弥补自己在技术方面的不足，并强调了快速执行和市场适应能力的重要性。

15:07

🌐 社交媒体营销与影响力的力量

Pieter分享了他在社交媒体营销方面的经验，特别是如何通过TikTok影响者来推广自己的AI照片创业项目。他讨论了传统新闻媒体与社交媒体影响力在产品推广上的差异，并强调了建立团队和利用数据驱动方法的重要性。

20:09

💡 技术选择与创业精神的哲学

Pieter探讨了技术选择对创业成功的影响，他用自己使用PHP和jQuery作为技术栈的例子，来说明技术的选择并不是创业成功的唯一决定因素。他强调了创业精神中的实用主义，以及如何避免过度工程化，专注于快速上市和客户获取。

25:10

🛠️ 创业初期的实践与自动化

Pieter分享了他在创业初期的做法，包括如何通过手动处理订单来验证业务模式，然后逐步自动化流程。他讨论了自动化的时机和成本效益，以及如何通过快速迭代来适应市场变化。

30:14

🌟 创业项目的社会证明与市场接受度

在这部分，Pieter讨论了创业项目如何获得社会证明和市场接受度。他提到了作为独立创业者如何通过建立公众形象和信任来推广产品，以及如何通过社交媒体平台来建立这种信任。

35:16

🧳 数字游民文化与远程工作的兴起

Pieter分享了他对数字游民文化的看法，以及远程工作的兴起如何改变了人们的生活方式。他讨论了数字游民在不同国家和地区的分布情况，以及这种生活方式对个人和社会的影响。

40:19

🤝 合作与竞争中的创业精神

Pieter讨论了他与其他创业者的合作关系，以及如何在竞争激烈的市场中保持创新和独特性。他分享了自己如何通过与他人合作来互补技能，并利用各自的优势来推动业务发展。

45:19

📈 AI技术的未来发展与创业机会

在这部分，Pieter对AI技术的未来发展进行了展望，并讨论了它为创业者带来的新机会。他分享了自己如何利用AI技术来创造新产品，并探讨了AI如何改变传统行业和工作方式。

50:22

🌍 长期项目与持续创新的重要性

Pieter强调了长期项目的重要性，并分享了他如何持续改进自己的项目，如Nomad List。他讨论了长期持有项目的价值，并分享了他对项目未来的看法，以及如何保持创新和适应市场变化。

55:23

📱 社交媒体平台的变化与内容创造者的适应

Pieter讨论了社交媒体平台，特别是Twitter的变化，以及这些变化如何影响内容创造者。他分享了自己如何在新的算法和平台规则下调整内容策略，并保持与观众的互动。

00:26

🔄 经济周期与创业机会的循环

Pieter探讨了经济周期的概念，并讨论了不同经济周期如何影响创业机会。他分享了自己对当前经济周期的看法，以及创业者如何适应这些变化来寻找新的商业机会。

05:28

🎙️ 社交媒体的真实性与个人品牌的建立

在这部分，Pieter讨论了在社交媒体上保持真实性的重要性，以及如何通过分享真实想法和经历来建立个人品牌。他分享了自己如何处理争议和批评，并保持与观众的诚实对话。

10:31

📞 社交媒体互动的挑战与应对策略

Pieter分享了他在社交媒体上与观众互动的经验，包括如何处理负面反馈和批评。他讨论了社交媒体对个人心态的影响，并提供了一些应对社交媒体压力的策略。

📝 内容创造与多平台分发的策略

Pieter讨论了他在不同平台上创造和分发内容的策略，强调了根据每个平台的特点来调整内容形式的重要性。他分享了自己如何在Twitter、YouTube和播客等不同平台上分享内容，并建立观众群。

📈 AI技术的影响与未来的工作

Pieter分享了他对AI技术对工作影响的看法，讨论了AI如何改变某些职业，如摄影和室内设计。他探讨了AI技术的进步如何使某些工作变得更加高效，同时也可能导致某些工作的减少。

🌟 社交媒体的表演性与个人表达

Pieter讨论了社交媒体的表演性质，以及如何在保持个人表达的同时，适应社交媒体的特点。他分享了自己如何在Twitter上保持真实性，同时吸引和保持观众的兴趣。

🔄 社交媒体平台的变化与创业者的适应

Pieter讨论了社交媒体平台，尤其是Twitter的变化，以及这些变化对创业者的影响。他分享了自己如何适应这些变化，并继续在平台上有效地分享自己的想法和产品。

🎉 结语与对听众的感谢

在节目的最后，主持人感谢Pieter的参与，并总结了他们讨论的要点。同时，主持人也感谢了听众的收听，并鼓励听众在社交媒体上关注他，以及对他的播客进行评价和订阅。

Keywords

💡独立黑客（Indie Hacking）

独立黑客是指个人或小团队在没有大量外部资金支持的情况下，通过创造性和技术性的工作来开发和运营自己的产品或服务。在视频中，Pieter Levels讨论了独立黑客的兴起、变化以及为何它不再是过去的样子。

💡AI创业公司（AI Startups）

AI创业公司是指那些专注于开发和利用人工智能技术来提供创新产品和服务的初创企业。在视频中，Pieter提到了他自己的AI创业公司，以及如何在竞争激烈的市场中与大型科技公司竞争。

💡平台风险（Platform Risks）

平台风险是指依赖于第三方平台（如社交媒体、操作系统或其他技术基础设施）进行业务运营时所面临的风险。这些风险可能包括平台政策变化、技术更新或服务中断等。在对话中，Pieter谈到了作为AI创业公司，他们如何面对和处理这些风险。

💡推特（Twitter）

推特是一个流行的社交媒体平台，用户可以发布和互动简短的消息。在视频中，Pieter讨论了他如何使用推特来建立观众群体，并通过推特来推广他的产品和服务。

💡远程工作（Remote Work）

远程工作是指不需要在办公室或特定地点工作，而是通过互联网在家或任何地方工作的方式。Pieter提到了远程工作如何成为新的常态，并且与独立黑客文化相结合。

💡内容创作（Content Creation）

内容创作涉及制作和发布各种形式的内容，如博客文章、视频、播客等，以吸引和保持观众的兴趣。在视频中，Pieter提到了他如何通过内容创作来建立自己的品牌和业务。

💡经济衰退（Economic Recession）

经济衰退是指经济活动减少，通常表现为高失业率、低投资和消费下降。在视频中，Pieter和主持人讨论了经济衰退如何影响创业和投资环境。

💡产品开发（Product Development）

产品开发是指设计、构建和测试新产品的过程。在视频中，Pieter分享了他如何快速开发产品，并通过手动工作来验证市场需求，然后再自动化这些流程。

💡多平台运营（Multi-Platform Operation）

多平台运营是指在多个社交媒体或在线平台上运营业务，以扩大受众和市场覆盖。Pieter提到了他如何在不同的平台上运营，包括推特和TikTok，以及如何根据不同平台的特点调整内容策略。

💡基本收入（Basic Income）

基本收入是指政府或组织为每个公民提供的基本、无条件的定期支付，以保障基本生活需求。在视频中，Pieter讨论了基本收入对于应对技术失业和提供经济安全感的重要性。

💡社会证明（Social Proof）

社会证明是指人们在不确定的情况下，通过观察他人的行为来决定自己的行为。在视频中，Pieter谈到了社会证明对于新创业公司和产品的重要性，以及他如何通过公开构建和分享自己的创业旅程来建立这种证明。

Highlights

独立黑客（Indie hacking）并非消亡，而是随着时间发展而变化。

Pieter Levels认为，独立黑客的概念在2014年左右随着Product Hunt的兴起而流行起来。

大科技公司开始关注独立制造者，使得独立黑客变得更加主流和竞争激烈。

AI初创公司面临的挑战包括与大型科技公司竞争和缺乏技术壁垒。

Pieter Levels通过Twitter建立观众群体，利用影响力营销提高产品知名度。

独立黑客现在更像是一种创业方式，而不仅仅是黑客文化。

经济衰退时期，精益创业和独立黑客成为必要，因为资金变得难以获得。

Pieter Levels讨论了AI初创公司的平台依赖性问题，如GPU成本和API服务的不稳定性。

他分享了自己如何通过快速迭代和手动工作来验证创业想法，然后再自动化流程。

Pieter强调了在技术选择上不必过分追求最新技术，应更注重实际效果和快速上市。

他提倡使用PHP和jQuery等成熟技术栈，而不是追求最新的框架。

Pieter认为，开发者应该关注解决问题和满足客户需求，而不是过分沉迷于工具和技术。

他分享了自己的产品Nomad List的成功经验，强调了长期坚持和逐步改进的重要性。

Pieter讨论了TikTok作为新兴社交媒体平台对年轻一代的影响力，以及它在创业中的应用潜力。

他提出了关于AI对人类未来的积极看法，并批评了对AI的无端恐惧和悲观态度。

Pieter分享了他对远程工作和数字游民生活方式的看法，以及这对个人和社会的潜在影响。

他讨论了社交媒体平台变化对内容创作者的影响，以及如何在这些平台上保持影响力。

Pieter提到了他对于Twitter新算法的看法，以及它是如何改变用户互动和内容传播的。

Transcripts

Indie hacking is dead. At least that's something that my guest

today, Pieter Levels once tweeted about. Of course, it's

not dead but it is different now. And just how different and

why it's different, that we will figure out today on The

Bootstrapped Founder. Pieter and I chat about AI startups,

dealing with platform risks, and why indie hacking isn't even

hacking anymore, and how to build audiences on Twitter in

2023. A big shout out to the sponsor of today's episode:

acquire.com. More on that later. Now, here's Pieter.

Pieter, thanks so much for being on the show. I only have one

question here. Why is indie hacking dead? Can you tell me

more about that?

Man, so I tweeted that indie hacking was dead. But my point

was more like I think, because it's like a long tweet and the

first message is like indie hacking is dead. And then I

tried to explain, but nobody reads the second line. Like

TikTok, you know, people only watch 10 seconds. So what I

meant was, like indie hacking started I think, like 2016

because the kind of big, maybe 2014 with Product Hunt. Because

before a lot of people would do the VC route of doing startups,

right? Everybody knows this story. So I feel like this year

kind of like became very popular and a lot of people are indie

hacking. And I think also now, what you see, what I see on my

Twitter is that big companies, big tech companies, they follow

me and they follow other indie makers, to see what indie makers

are doing. Like it's become finally on the radar of tech,

you know, a lot of people in San Francisco. I saw a tweet by

Louis, he's making AI startup in San Francisco and he lives in

some parts of sleeping path. And he said, I'm in the sleeping

path, like a hostel in San Francisco for $600 per month,

full of indie hackers trying to ship AI startups. And I'm like,

why? Is this because it's San Francisco? It's usually the

place where you raise VC and these indie hackers. So it feels

like it's a mainstream term now. And that's what it means. So it

means it has become more competitive, more saturated and

more difficult because you're competing not just with a lot of

indie hackers. Now a lot of people are doing, it's becoming

like the standard route. You're also competing with big tech

companies now. And I see this with AI startups I do. I'm

competing with companies that raised $500 million, you know,

like these big AI startups and they follow me on Twitter, you

know and they see what I'm doing. So if I launch a feature,

they ask their developers to make the same feature. And maybe

vice versa, of course, but that's what it means. So it's

dead in a way that like, if remote work was called remote

hacking, you know and then COVID happens and remote work became

normal. It would also be dead because it's not hacking

anymore, just normal now. So it's more like

Yeah, that is exactly the difference. Right? Like it used

to be hacking. It used to be hacking. It used to be kind of a

subculture thing.

Yeah

And now it's just the way people approach entrepreneurship.

Yeah

Indie hacking is just indie business or entrepreneurship,

I think so. And people reply to me like, oh, you're in a bubble

right?

because you're like in the indie hacker bubble, it's not

mainstream at all. But I do think startups, it's very

present on the radar for a lot of people. And a lot of people

prefer like, man, I have a lot of VC funded founder friends.

And they say their next startup is preferably indie. And they

will do it because they can have a lot of people are burned out

from the VCs, you know?

Yeah. Well, good. I think that's a good thing because there's a

lot of speculation happening there that maybe coupled with an

economic recession is not the best idea.

Yeah, yeah, yeah

For people to put their whole life energy into something very

That's a very good point. Like the economic recession is a very

good point because you want to do more lean. Lean startup indie

hacking becomes a necessity because there is no money. It's

hard to get funding. It's hard to get seriously be funding, you

Yeah, that's right. That series A or even seed funding, just

know, maybe

money has dried up in many ways and people are much more

selective in what they fund. It's funny that you mentioned

like AI startups because there's a lot of them going on. And you

recently tweeted something about your own recently, just a couple

hours ago

Yeah

You did about like how you found something that you haven't felt

before with other startups now that you are doing AI startups.

It's kind of the lack of a moat.

It's a big problem. Yeah, I said the F word. But this is a big

problem. Everybody talks about it even like other AI founders,

VC funded AI founders. We DM and everybody does separate

retention, which is the churn is very high. And defensibility,

like you make something and immediately you have a lot of

clones because everybody's working with the same stuff.

Everybody's using GPT-4 for tech stuff almost or the Facebook LM

but or people use stable efficient for image stuff.

Everybody uses the same so it's not proprietary tech, like the

stuff you do around is proprietary, like the way you

combine all the models and everything in your website. But

everybody can figure this out. I would say if you're smart within

three months, if you're less smart, maybe six months to a

year. So it's very difficult to make a startup AI startup now

Right?

Yeah. Yeah, that's an issue. I guess it's both a benefit and a

curse, right?

Yeah

The curse is everybody can do it. The benefit is everybody can

It's really good for customers, right? If you have a lot of

do it. There is a lot of variety and you can build a lot of things.

people making these apps and you get a big pressure on the price

to go down but difficult for business owners because if the

price goes down like this pure economics the profit margin goes

to zero. And man, my profit margins for these AI start ups

is not high like this week I've been charting it and it's like,

you know, with the cost of GPU the profit margin gets really

really low very quickly. So

Yeah, I was wondering about this like I was looking into your

your startups, the whole list of them and you have several,

right? Some are going on, Nomad List is still around, Remote OK

is still there. And then you have these two AI startups that

have pretty significant MRR. They have a lot of costs

compared to the others, right?

Yeah, that's the problem. That's the big problem. And man,

honestly, GPU costs go down. It's a difficult business and we

were thinking GPU costs would go down. But then Nvidia said,

like, there's a kind of bottleneck, they cannot produce

enough chips, it's so popular now AI. They cannot produce

enough chips. And the stock of Nvidia, of course, went through

the roof because of this. So people are fighting over GPUs,

it's insane. It's like you need a GPU for it's like a processor

for people who don't know, it's like a CPU, like a computer

processor, but it's for graphics. And somehow it's it's

very, let's not go too deep. But it's very useful, very fast for

AI stuff, you need a GPU for AI pretty much. Otherwise, it's

very slow. So there's not enough GPUs being built like Nvidia

makes almost all of them. So that makes the cost of these

servers very high.

It's crazy to think about just how much platform dependencies

back there, right? You have the processor that needs to be done.

And you need those for machine learning systems that also are

run by somebody else. And then there's an API that is run by a

company and you build on top of that.

Yeah

So you depend on all these layers.

Yeah

How do you deal with this? Because I don't think Nomad List

is that much dependent.

No, not at all. No, it's like, Nomad List use API to collect

data for about cities, right. So I use a lot of different

sources. But it's like 100 robots that collect that scrape

kind of information. And some is paid API's, but it's not

dependent at all. But with GPUs, man, this is a great story. Like

I cannot name too many names. But for example, when so like,

last year, I started with avatars AI avatar AI because I

was making in theory AI because I started doing AI stuff. And I

was typing stuff like everybody in these prompts like to

generate images. And I found out that I could build like, houses

very beautiful design houses. So I made a site called

thishousedoesnotexist.org, I think and it generates random

houses random design, like house born kind of beautiful. And then

I saw it also made very beautiful interior. So I started

making interior AI, where you can generate interiors. And then

afterwards, you can upload your own home interior with image to

image technology. And it's kind of modified and it worked. And I

made in theory AI and then I tried to see if I could fine

tune and fine tuning is where you take the AI model and you

make it more focused towards a specific goal. So for example,

you want to make interiors because they believe fusion,

this image model can make any image, right? You can make

houses but also plans, people, anything. So if you want to

focus in interior and get better results. So I trained with

interior photos and it gets better results. And then I tried

training with my own photos because see what happens and it

works. And you get like these photos of yourself in every

style. And I was like, wow, this is very cool. So I tweeted it.

And it went viral. Then the next day, I was like I need to really

quickly make a start up for this. So I made avatar AI. And

it was I think the first big AI avatar startup. And then these

big companies were following me. So they quickly within a month,

they did the same and they got way bigger, say VC funded and

they made I think $40 million. I think I made like, maybe half a

million dollars or $400,000, lots within a month or so I'm

getting two months is insane. But the funny part, what I want

to say is that the service I used to do this fine tuning. The

cost of funding was $3. And then when they saw my tweets, where I

was sharing my revenue, that it was making so much money with

this. They said sorry, we need to increase the price to $20 for

training. And I was selling them for like $25 or $3. So for like

a month, they got all the money. And I couldn't switch and they

said as difficult. Maybe they were telling the truth. They had

problems with like getting GPUs also. But they increased the

price and I felt kind of like scammed, you know. And so this

is a good example. You're dependent on a supplier who can

when they see you're successful, they increase the price. This

happens to people who have co workers phase too. There's a co

working space famous who was very successful, very cheap

brands and then when they were successful after the one year

lease and say oh, now it's like five times the rent and 10 times

the rent is what landlords do. So these dependencies are not

nice. So I switched out to a new provider. They're much like,

replicate.com They're very nice. They're super helpful. They

don't change price, they don't increase price, they only

decrease prices. It's amazing. So how do you deal with this?

Man, it's a real problem.

Well, if there's one thing that you can learn from this

experience is just to think about alternatives from the

start, right? If you have a service that you're building on,

like, you have to find a way to abstract it enough so you can

have another service to plug into your system.

Exactly. So you have to go one level higher. So you have to get

your own feet virtual private server with GPUs, you know, but

then you need to learn to code Python and do all this stuff.

And man, this Python is too much for me. These GPUs it's too

difficult. So I hired an AI developer for this to help me

with these models because it's just too difficult for me. I

cannot like Danny Postma is my friend and he makes

headshotpro.com. And he did it himself first. I think now he

hired more people, but he's smarter than me. And he can do

like Python stuff. And yeah, I tried so much, but it's like my

heads, you know.

Well, it's kind of one of these things that is so specific that

you know, as a solopreneur, kinda dev who just wants to

build stuff. Like you don't want to dive into something that

takes you three years of university to understand, right?

Man, I think it would take me six months of understanding this

package manager does not be five, just too much. I can't get

it working. It's so difficult. But it shows my limits. This

year, I see my limits. I'm not so good at this stuff, you know.

Did you have a hard time hiring for that? Because that's my

experience when I founded my business and I kind of ran it,

ran it, ran it. I thought I could do it all, right? Like,

you know, the solo tech kind of person. Is that the same for

Yeah, cuz I thought I could do everything until this year. I

I had Danny on the show a couple episodes ago. And it was really

you?

thought I could. Man, I was like, complacent. And I was

arrogant. And I thought because Nomad List and all these start

ups just work, almost everything myself, except customer support

and like jet moderators and stuff. And I have a server guy.

If the server was on, but that's the opposite. And I thought I

can do everything myself. I can do front end, backends,

everything and I could. And the sides always look a little

interesting. Like his focus on SEO, that's just something that

clunky because I do everything myself. But that's like

something you take for granted. It's just where you accept and

not so bad. But this year, I was like, man, there's so many

things I cannot do like marketing. I always rely on

organic marketing, organic SEO stuff. And you get I think,

Danny Postma made me very fresh because man, he's insane SEO

guy. He's like insane. He makes startups just based on the

keywords like he discovered his LinkedIn hashtags worked so

well. That was most of the searches. So he makes this

service, specifically this niche. Because he was also

making like, advertisers, very smart. So I learned about SEO

more. Now I'm learning about TikTok marketing. So I hired a

guy to help me with man, because TikTok is insane. I talked to

one influencer, he posted about photoai.com, my AI photo startup

and MRR went from 12k to like 40 or 50k. Insane, right? And it

stayed that way. And of course, it was sharing. And so I also

worked in but this shows you have a really big effect of

these influence. And it's way bigger effect than press. Like I

also got a lot of press for these AI startups. And this

press does almost nothing, you can put the logos on your site,

but nobody links and clicks on these links. It's insane.

I personally have never done. Like it's just something, I had

word of mouth marketing and my things and that was fine. But he

just diving into the data and like pulling out the things and

building businesses on top of that. That's like domaining,

right? Like finding a domain, building a domain on top of or

business on top of that domain name. That's just such a smart

data driven approach, really like that. And Danny too, is

building a team. He's building a studio, right?

Yeah, yeah

Building something out there. So I guess you're kind of in

parallel with that, trying to expand your capacity beyond just

yourself.

100%. And like we always do like tech swap because he sees my

photos that suddenly look much better on Twitter, my AI photos

and he asked me man, what are you doing now? And we give each

other hands. So they say like, man, maybe look at this feature

and try this, you know, but we're not competing because he's

doing head shots and I don't want to do headshots. It says

like niche. I'm doing more general photo studio kind of

thing.

Have you ever considered actually working together like

building a business together?

Yeah, Ithink we both would because I think I respect him a

lot. He respects me a lot. I think it's good in the future.

The man found his technology because my code, he doesn't

trust my code because they'll PHP. And he writes I think

proper, like JavaScript, you know, but in general, like, man,

most of the code is Python in the background anyway. Like

that's where the real stuff happens. It's just front end. So

I think could happen in the future. I think it will be fun.

For example, to if I ever sell to try sell, like together or

something would be good because it's something like that. But I

have a lot of respect. And I think it's very cool what he's

doing. And he shake me up a lot because he showed me that

because first I was making more money with avatars. And then I

think at some point, he was making more money with his

profile pictures and then headshots. I was like, damn! And

I was like, what's going on? Like, I don't like this, you

know, because you want to win, you know? And then it was very

good for me. It was like, okay, you need to do a lot of stuff

like SEO, like marketing, like, look at what keywords people

searching, makes up pages, all this stuff I wasn't doing and

yeah, it's very cool. Yeah.

Sounds like you have a little mastermind group going on there

with Danny. Nice.

Yeah. Well, man not every day. But like, once every few weeks

we message. Yeah

That's awesome. Yeah. I love that you just talked about your

code because to me, like your PHP code and all the stuff

around it and your use of jQuery instead of like fancy frameworks

and all that, that has become almost a meme in the community.

And I mean, it's in the best sense, right? Like people think

it's really funny that somebody is still coding, like, it's the

90s. But also, people think, oh, wow, crazy, you can still do

this and still be successful. I love that about how you approach

technology. Because if I think about your tech stack, it's just

PHP and a little bit of JavaScript. That's it.

Yeah

Yeah

Right? Do you do you ever consider like actually changing

Like, if you ever sell your business, have you ever thought

that up? Because you just said that, like, if you work with

somebody else, they don't trust your code.

about that? Like, how complicated that might actually

make selling the business?

Yeah. Look, the thing with this meme is I exaggerated the meme

for viral effects. So I'd make it look like my code is really

bad. But it's much better, like people really think it's really

bad. And I'm not saying it's great. But it's, I mean, it's

pretty good. It's, it's like very clear. Now, it's highly

commented. It's very, like I write in multiple files now, you

know, this index of PHP was in the beginning, you know. I use

GitHub. There's a very structural pattern that I made

myself, like folder structure and files. And like, as workers,

this, like scheduled work is as robust as new stuff. There's

app. There's a data file with a database and stuff. And it all

uses like SQLite. So it's very structured. So I think PHP

developer can get into and they have, like, I had developers for

small things come on. It's pretty, they can find what they

want to find. So it does work, but at least more about a meme.

It's more it's not about PHP jQuery, it's more about the

point that it doesn't matter that you have these developers

who work in enterprise in agencies. And there's this

agency, MLM I feel like where you have a company who doesn't

know anything about tech. They come to the web agency and they

want like a website or app and stuff. And these web agencies

need to sell like the best stuff. So they say we use the

newest technology, like we use some big framework and they need

to, they use as a sales thing. And then these developers need

to update the skills to use this technology. And this is like a

cycle. And it's a whole economy because you have this ecosystem

of like frameworks now gets funded. And they have

evangelists and like, become like versal. I like versal but

they are very, that's a big example. They have evangelist

who make developers promote the stuff all the time and the work

for them. That's the whole thing. And they're VC funde, and

they need growth and all good. But this makes new developers

think that they need all this technology to make stuff. And

this technology is nice, but in many ways, a lot of the new

technology makes things more complicated often. And there's a

thing called I think Taleb, Nassim Taleb always talks about

Lindy effect, where all technology is proven because it

just works because it's old, right? Like PHP is very old just

works. New technology, you need to be a little bit distrustful

of because it's often breaks like, man, I have this when you

buy like smart home stuff. Like I go into Airbnb and there's

some smart TV or something, you know and it's so difficult to

watch TV now. This kind of Lindy effect, like old TV just works.

It shows it to me and it's tested, you know?

Yeah

So I think that's my whole point of this, like, doesn't matter

what you use. There's no need for this cultism with

developers. If you are entrepreneur, you know, it's all

about like if you're developer, easy share. But if you're an

entrepreneur and the problem is a lot of these developers that

work as freelancers they want to be an entrepreneur. So they

bring this whole bogash, this baggage of having to use this

stack and over engineering. And while this code is so elegant

and stuff, to something where the priority should be getting

customers and getting people to pay money because then you

survive. You know, you pay your rent.

Yeah, developers and I think we both kind of are developers,

right? We're so tool focused, we so we look at the things and we

want it to be optimal. We want it to be the best thing for that

solution. I'm kind of glad that you're showing that you can just

stick to one tool and just make it happen, right? There probably

is some framework out there that is like 2.7% faster in some

regard. But it doesn't matter, right? If you're fast enough to

bring a thing to market, that's when you monetize, not when you

use the best tool possible. And I think you talked about this in

the beginning, too, it's like or that's kind of the tweet that I

was referring to when you were talking about having to deal

with the lack of moat. And just as an AI startup, right? When

you kind of have to imagine that the competitors, just a couple

of months around the corner, like your execution speed is so

much more important than the request speed of the web

framework that you use, right?

Yeah, 100%. And man, most developers pretty slow to be

honest. Like, man, I'm not good developer. But I'm really fast.

One skill I have because I don't make things too complicated.

Man, I repeat myself all the time. And then I repeat myself

10 times like, you know, don't repeat yourself as the mentor

then I write a function, but I don't. Like people try

immediately write a function for something you repeat twice. It's

like, man, you know, like this kind of stuff. And I think

especially in beginning when you make a startup or when you make

something new, it's very important to not obsess over

this because you're trying to validate something, you have an

idea, right? Like, when I was on this avatar AI. And this was

man, it wasn't even code. It was just a index of HTML, like it

was just a page. We have examples of the avatars you

could generate and the input photos and then a link to type

form, Stripe checkout, Stripe payment link, that was it, went

to get your avatars Stripe payment link and there was

nothing else. And then I would go to Stripe and check the

email. And on Stripe checkout, I had the link after payments is a

type form. So I went to a type form where it collected all the

photos with file uploads and then I would manually so I

immediately had like, 100 orders. So manually I did the

thing is 100 or 200 orders myself. So I would download the

photos and then I would go to this platform to do this fine

tuning. I would upload their photos. And then I would

download the resulting photos. Man, it was horrible work,

manual work. I'd spent like all night doing this. And then I

started automated the second day. And after a week, it was a

lot of work. After a week, it finally was automatic.

Wow.

So that's an example where there wasn't even code, it was just a

landing page and a tweet.

That's so cool

And a payment link. And thenwhen it work, you can make the codes,

you know.

Right. Yeah, you have a process that you can actually implement.

Right? You have steps that you can then automate.

Yeah, because you prove that it works, that there's a business

maybe and then you can invest the time to code something. But

coding takes a lot of time. There's this, you know, the

cartoon, the XSCD or something.

XKCD. Yeah

Yeah. Yeah, you know they have this cartoon like, how much does

a chart like how much time it takes to automate something and

how much time the thing itself takes? And often the time it

takes to automate something is hired and the time everything

takes. So if that's true, just do it yourself manually until,

you know, obviously, if you spent all night uploading

downloading photos, it takes too much time. You can automate it

faster, right?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, if that was one night's work and how

much did you charge per photo at that point?

$30

You know, that's like that's $3,000 for a night's work.

That's not too bad, right?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great!

I mean, some people would do that for life if they could

just, you know, it's so pretty cool to do this. I really,

really enjoy that this particular way of doing this.

Particularly with AI, right? A tool that is probably hard to

automate when there is a lot of manual figuring things out,

right? As well with the whole fine tuning kind of stuff. So

it's really cool that you did this for a day or a week, until

you had it all figured out. I think that's an indie hacking

approach to kind of what Paul Graham calls the concierge

approach, right? The idea of doing stuff with the white glove

treatment. I do this for you instead of having everything

automated. A lot of people want to build software from day one.

They want to build a tool, they want login, they want to stripe

integration, they want all kinds of things. And then they want to

make money. But you made money by just doing the thing, which

is really

Yeah, I think it's also because I did it so much wrong. I did it

I spent man, it took so much about I spent like a year on

some YouTube Analytics startup in like 2014 or something. 14, I

think and nobody paid for it. Nobody wanted to be customer.

And it was just everything was amazing, interface was amazing.

But nobody, you know, so I'm so traumatized by this. It's just,

I'm not going to build anything until there's customers, you

know, generally.

Whenever I go to Product Hunt and I see all these tools there,

you know, you have the top five that are really interesting. And

I have a couple more that have been on, you know, a few

upvotes. And then you have the 400 things that are launched

that day that have no upvotes between all these 400. Behind

every single one of them is a developer who spent six months

building the perfect product.

Man, exactly!

That's what I always think about. It's so sad.

Like it's so sad. And like they all look really good like the

landing page is, like beautiful design is like a red flag for

me, you know. This beautiful gradients and these borders that

move.

It's fancy.

It's so fancy. If it's too fancy, means you spent too much

time on design or it's some VC startup that spent too much

money on designers. If it's the beginning, if it's not validated

yet, you know and I prefer a very ugly webpage in the

beginning, that just. Man, look at Google, look at the beginning

it was very ugly. Look at Facebook first page was very

ugly. You need to have a very ugly, basic beginning page, I

think to validate something first.

Yeah. That's kind of also what the whole discussion about indie

hacking being dead or different. I think different is just a

better phrase, right? It's not dead. It's still there. But it's

not the same as what it used to be like seven years ago, right?

Seven years ago, it was a movement. Today, it's just how

things are done. It has arrived, right? It's kind of what it is.

But I think that's what indie hacking is also doing. And I

think Danny posted about this, like indie hacking is the new

drop shipping. That's what he kind of called it or there were

people that in the replies to your tweet saying, well, yeah,

people have just higher expectations of products now. So

indie hacking now looks different and all that. And I

think that's important too, right? Like for us hackers, we

can deal with a, you know, with a really shitty page that has

barely any CSS in there. No automation, you know, exactly

that there is a manual component, doesn't matter, you

still want to use it because you're an early adopter. But

with indie hacking going into mainstream, I think you crossed

the chasm as well. And you now have all these normal people,

let's just call them that. That one products that are kind of

proven that have that need social proof already. And you

did this pretty well because you are your own social proof, like

your history of products and you're building in public, like

whatever you launch, you have social proof already. Right?

Like, that's something that stands out in particular, in

your case, now that you're reaching like 340,000 followers

on Twitter, you bring this with you, but how would you? If

somebody were to start any hacking today, what would you

tell them to get to this point? What would you tell them to have

the social proof that they need to launch products?

Man, honestly, this is like very controversial. I think you

should always do the opposite everybody else is doing. So now

if enacting is mentioned, you should probably like do

something completely different. You know, I mean, like, you

should go where nobody's going because when I started, man, it

was almost nobody. It was only patio11 Patrick McKenzie was

bootstrapping startups. And everybody else was raising VC,

it was not normal to bootstrap start ups. It was very, very,

very not normal. And now it's normal. So I don't know I always

feel you need to run away from the herd you know, the sheep.

You need to go somewhere else where no, like, look for part of

the grass where nobody is and go there. If you believe in this,

you know and then spend a lot of time spend years on this. But

about social proof, I don't know. I think maybe it's not

important. Maybe it's just it's important you make something

that's like a problem that's out there like you know, look at all

the sub Reddits. There's a lot of problems there like every sub

Reddit has like a goal and you can go see this app or startup

you can make around that. Like somebody does this mean but

Craigslist, right? Every category has become a startup.

You can do same with subreddits. Again now maybe the reddit of

the day is TikTok, right? Go to TikTok, see what's going on on

TikTok and see what people want and make startups around there.

Maybe this answer start doing TikTok. I tell everybody this

for a year. I don't even do it myself a lot myself but it

should. But do go to TikTok and see what's going on there and

document your journey not on Twitter, maybe but on TikTok and

so hey, I'm Pieter. I just starting out, I want to serve,

want to make some money and pay my rent. And everyday I'm going

to make a video about this and what I'm doing and this new

feature. That would be how I would approach it in 2023. I

wouldn't probably be on Twitter X at all.

Interesting. Yeah, that definitely a building in public

where those people that you want to serve actually are, right?

That is something that I really wanted to ask you because we

talked a lot about AI startups and that kind of stuff. And it

feels to me that the demographic for them is a younger crowd,

right? And then like people who they have no problem with AI. I

don't know if you've seen the same but in our community, a lot

of people are very afraid of AI. Right? So there seems to be a

generational divide there and saying TikTok is the new place

to do this in front of people who are willing to accept that

this is the way to go. Probably a good idea. What do you think

about this whole like AI is the end of humanity kind of

conversation? What's your stand?

First of all, this generation thing is right like Gen Z

doesn't care. They just use it like man, I work now with I know

the guy from Jenni AI David Park, I think and he uses TikTok

and all these students use this app Jenni AI and I think it

writes papers for you or it helps you with writing papers

and everybody uses this like 150k MRR, it's insane. Man,

you're right. Nobody says like, is this good or bad? Man is this

good or bad thing comes I think from millennials, like we're

millennials, right?

Yeah

And journalists are also millennials. And people that

want to, you know, maybe it's our culture to like challenge

everything, which kind of good and make a problem out of

everything. And there is, of course, fundamental

philosophical things you can talk about. But I don't think

it's very useful to constantly complain in every reply, you

know, about the problems with AI and how it's going to destroy

humanity. I don't know, I think look at the good sides. And look

how it can benefit everybody. Of course, our great leader, Elon

Musk, you know, is also complaining about AI. Right?

He's like, it's gotta be the end of humanity. So what am I

saying, you know?

But he's also like, from a much older generation, right?

Yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right. No, but of

course, there's risk. But man, I get kind of tired of his whole

like, negative scene on Twitter that started like 2016. And I

feel died off like when Elon Musk bought Twitter and it's a

very politically engaged scene and they're very, like, angry.

And I don't see them a lot anymore. I think they moved to

Macedon. But this is New Zealand, Twitter. I don't know

you've saw the E/ACC. Like it's like, about acceleration. Like

people are kind of philosophical. And they also

want to they are positive about the future of humanity and

technology, how we can use technology to make the future of

humanity better. And it's E/ACC and people have this in their

nickname and I follow up few people like Beth Jezos, like

Jeff Bezos, he's like the leader or something. It's a very

distinct group of people, very positive. And I feel that's man,

I think positive in general works better, you know. I mean,

I say this after complaining about Sony headphones for three

days straight. But no, but I still believe in the future of

Sony headphones if they fix some stuff, but I think positivity

works better than complaining. I feel okay, let's be honest. I

think there's some powerlessness if you cannot code and you see

this AI stuff happening and you're not making money with it.

And your income is not increasing because incomes are

stagnant now and the government is not providing basic income,

which is like free money for people because technology

replacing a lot of stuff. I understand completely that you

feel bad about this and you're gonna complain, like people

complain about foreigners in Portugal, you know or people

complain about AI. You know, in journalism, we are the writer

strike in America, right? It's a big thing. Like the people who

write the TV shows and the movies, they're on strike all

the time because they think GPT-4 replaced them. Man, maybe

will so I understand the problem. As always, I think the

government should provide basic income to most people. And I

think, I don't know if there will be a lot of new jobs

created actually. I generally people believe in that. I don't

really believe in that.

It's a whole philosophical or societal conversation about

like, should we even want everybody to have to work to

feel that they're participating in society. Right? That's a

thing. Like the whole, like, full employment of a country, is

that even something we need as humans? Or could we just?

I don't think so.

Yeah, I agree with you there. And I think I'm a big Star Trek

fan. I've always been a very optimistic sci fi future kind of

person. But it's just recently I watched the Terminator movies

because for some reason, I needed to go back to the 80s and

90s and watch some really, really interesting movies. And I

honestly, I do understand that the fear in the 80s and 90s of

what technology is going to do, which is what Terminator is all

about, right? What if AI computers take over? That fear

is very present in those movies. And I think if you're socialized

with this, if this is how you approach a technology, then

everything you look at is potentially something that

destroys everything around you, right? So the fear that it just

destroys society, that destroys your habitat and all that and we

do see some of this, right? What you just said is extremely,

wonderfully phrased like the people who are not able to code,

who are not able to control the machine, they are afraid of the

machine. That is very, very

And we are on like podcasts, we have AI started with like, wow,

it's so good. Let's make money with it, you know.

Of course, I'm positive about it. No, I 100% agree. But I feel

That's right

like, as always, I feel like people shouldn't blame the

scapegoat, like, every technology has the same amount

of bad and good it brings, you know an AI too, internet too,

right? It's brought a lot of scams and man people died, you

know, because of internet and people were born because of

internet. So it's both. AI is the same thing. And but I think

governments should somehow and governments are not so

efficient, you know, in general, but they should. They should. I

think again, they should provide basic income. And I think people

can do voluntary work, for example. There's a lot of social

stuff that has to be done like kids need to be raised in more

like communities, I feel like there's a lot of stuff that can

be voluntary work and

In all paid work too, right? Like just having a basic income

doesn't mean that people don't make money from work. It just

means that they don't have to work to survive. That's the only

difference, right?

Yeah, exactly. So I think it should be protected, people

should be protected so that technology doesn't destroy their

income, the basic, you know, level of like, having a nice

house, being able to just buy nice, good food and live. I

think live a good life should be the goal for everybody in

humanity. And but I'm Dutch, you know, I'm a little bit

socialist.

I'm also a little bit socialist because I'm from East Germany,

man. I'm like socialist by birth.

Marxian communists.

That's exactly what it is. But yeah, I do see a need for this.

I see a need for people feeling safe from this kind of

technology because they have no agency over making it work for

them. It works at them, it doesn't work for them. It kind

of it's attacking them, aggressing them in the way. And

in a funny way, this kind of fear of not knowing what's going

to happen with the technology it also exists for us as founders,

right? As entrepreneurs, this is what you said this tweet of

yours from earlier. I'm just gonna get back to it and back to

it. Like there is no way for us to protect our technology

because it's not our technology to protect, like we only built

on top of these things. So is building an AI startup,

something you would suggest to somebody who just starting out

as an indie hacker?

Man, it's so difficult question. Right? I think so. I think you

should always try stuff with technology because you can

combine technology in new ways, unique ways that work for you. I

think you should always like try like you could always say that

you're always too late with everything, right? You're always

too late. Like people said in 2013-14, I'm too late to do

startups now because already Dropbox, Airbnb became big and

it's too late now. Of course, not too late. It's never too

late. You just start and you never know what's next. Like now

it's AI. There'll be always something next and jump away.

But man, but this is the reason last year when this AI stuff

started booming, like around like I think ChatGPT launched

and then Stable Diffusion launched or vice versa. It's a

month and it's suddenly people like oh shit, this really works

now. And then I started like scrambling. I'm like, man, now's

the time to build a lot of stuff and see what sticks because if I

wait six months, I'm not going to, you know, it's not going to

stick. Like everybody already did everything. So I spent

insane time making a lot of stuff to just catch this wave.

Now we're like, what? One years in, one half years in or

something. I mean, now it's quite late in that sense. It's

never too late, right? But I think you have some kind of

first mover advantage doesn't always work but you have some

kind of advantage if you catch a wave you know. A new technology

logical wave because people want to use technology and the

technology is always very brutal like it's very hard to use for

people's if you add a front end to a new technology, you can

start using it. I mean nomadism was the same, people were

already nomadic but it was very hard to find out where to go,

what the internet was, what these basic things. It was all

separated on different blogs, blog posts, like oh, you should

come to Thailand. No, you should come to Mexico. It was like

travel bloggers. So collecting all that together made it, you

know, user friendly to become a nomad, same thing. You catch a

wave, make technology easier to use and make money.

Do you still invest a lot of time in your old businesses, you

know, the ones that are pre AI?

Yeah, Nomad List is still a lot like I'm improving it like every

week and I think soon once the other AI startup kind of all the

stuff I wanted to do still on the my to do list with AI stuff

is finished, I will probably go back to Nomad list and improve

it. Like I've been working on 3d globe like Nomad List for the

last two months like because this globe was a map before and

I was like this 3d globe with like lines of like, I went to

Thailand and to Qatar and Holland and Brazil, for example.

And that kind of stuff. So that's my most favorite project

I think in terms of like, I feel it's really like my baby and

it's you can work on this project forever. Like I said,

just so you can work on this until you're 80 because there's

always a different way to figure out what's the best place to

live like for you personally, it's such a difficult problem.

So you know.

It's funny how this reminds me of what you said earlier with

the Lindy effect, right? Things that have been around for a long

time they will be around for an equally long time. It's kind of

what that means to me. Nomad List is something like this too.

You've been doing this for a while and it's still around and

you're still improving it and it's still finding customers.

That's very interesting. And particularly

It's very stable

Contrasted against your AI startup set, like up and down

and super expensive and complicated platform risk, an

interesting lesson to be drawn from that, I think, right? The

long term kind of

Yeah, I'd never expect to stay so long. It's like nine years

now. And I always expect this because I had a YouTube channel

before, electronic music mixes and they went up really fast,

like 8k per month and then it went down also very fast. So I

thought every business like probably hype, so I was always

traumatized, like, okay, this is just for one or two years, need

to make a lot of money. But it keeps going. And it makes man,

it's average, usually, like 40 or 50 or 60k per month, a lot of

money. So, just Nomad List, so not a lot of costs. So it's very

nice business.

Yeah, definitely. It definitely sounds calmer, right? Like less

crazy than the AI stuff.

Man! Yeah, I tweet about today, like this AI stuff is so

stressful because you always need to stay ahead of the game

and of competitors. And when a new technology comes out, like

now, it's a little bit slower. But last year, every week, it

was some new thing, new breakthrough and you need to

implement this very fast. And it's stressful for sure. Like,

it fucks with your sleep, you know, like

Would you sell them? Would you sell your AI businesses?

Yeah, I think I'll get it to a certain level, like maybe 100k

MRR for photo AI and interior and then like, I got them valued

recently. And the multiples for start ups are very good. Like

they are very quite high. Like, normally for like any start ups,

you get, like 2-3x or something, right? For AI, it can be like

five or six or even eight because it's kind of hype now.

So I think, again, the problem is profit, like the multiples

are based on profits. So you need to cut these costs rapidly.

And then you need to go to broker and then you need to sell

for like, good amount of money. But man, I don't know, it's hard

to sell. It's always like a nice challenge this AI stuff and but

it is stressful, you know, probably gives you a heart

disease.

Yeah, I mean, if not like mental health issues, right? With

anxiety and dealing with like all these unforeseen changes in

the platforms, that dependency on open AI and all their

platforms, right? If they decided to do the Elon Musk for

$2,000 a month kind of move. I mean, you could probably handle

it maybe but you know, like, it would be such a bastard move

really.

Yeah, yeah. Well, the good thing with AI is it's very open. So

when one company will raise the prices very fast, you can

probably easily back then not really, but now you can easily

switch to another provider. There's so many providers now.

So there's no less platform dependency now than a year ago,

you know, because there's a lot of API providers now. But yeah,

but it is stressful, you know. But I go gym, I go deadlift, and

you know, overhead press and squats and then it's good for my

mind. I don't have anxiety a lot. And but still, it's

stressful.

Yeah, I bet. Yeah, that's the thing with these kinds of hype

startups, right? You really have to push. And then you have to

make as much as you can and then go to the next thing. And that

feels, it doesn't feel like very sustainable.

Such an interesting way of thinking about photography. Like

Not my vibe, you know, I like building long term businesses.

And that's what I had with avatars. It felt so skitchy to

me, so gimmicky. Like, it's not really my vibe, like, it's kinda

it completely removes the act of photography

like too short term, you know and this photo AI feels more

like a photo studio for long term. Like it can have

potentially long but who knows, because AI. You don't know how

Like the act is gone, right? You don't need to go anywhere

long but the intention is to have a long term product that

can stay even if you sell it can stay for like 5 years or 10

years, you know, because the philosophy is that you can have

photography without needing a camera, you know. Like, you can

just train yourself and you can make unlimited AI photos

anywhere in the world from your computer, you know, you're on

the beach or you're in the office, you're anywhere.

anymore.

Yeah, it's such a cool idea. And I kind of love that. It's like

you and I kinda also hate it from a sense of somebody who

likes to take photos, right? It's weird. I'm torn on both

sides and I love the fact that it makes money. I hate the fact

that it's so easy to build so everybody built it.

It's like Photoshop. Photoshop at the same, when I was a kid

Photoshop came out and the newspapers are full of

Photoshop, like this is gonna destroy photography, everything

is fake now and it didn't. Like all it did was the people use it

for touching up or for art and stuff. So it's become a tool and

I feel with all this stuff it becomes a tool for like I

mentioned, you have a wedding photographer. He makes a lot of

photos and then there's not a single good one. Okay, maybe you

can use AI to train this person and you can make some renders

and then stitch them back into the photo, you know.

That is really cool. That makes sense.

That can be a mix of reality and AI, you know, like, that's

probably the future. So

I was gonna ask you what do you think of AI being the future,

but I kind of hear the sentiment of AI as tools that make actual

things easier. That is always going to be the future, right?

It's not that the AI is going to do everything for us, you know,

AI's gonna help us do the things better. That's how I see it, at

least.

Yeah. But I do think that it replaces people like I do think

it can replace photographers. So it's like, it is a tool, but you

will probably need one photographer instead of 10

photographers, you know. You need one person who can control

the AIs. So yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting.

But also for interior designers like interiorai.com, it tries

to, a lot of interior designers use it for ideation. So you have

a client who wants to get an idea for like because clients

don't know what they want. You take a photo of the interior.

And then you give them a lot of different styles. And do you

want this and you can kind of move through ideation together

to find the style that the customer wants and show them how

it looks and but this also removes a lot of jobs again

because you you need less like. Like I was looking at real

estate agencies, a lot of them use already people who make

these renders, especially new construction. They use beautiful

interior renders, so fake and this easily you can do with AI

in man, it takes 10 seconds to render a whole beautiful render.

Normally, it takes what like two days for people to make this. So

that's a real thing. But these people can use these tools also.

It's going to shortcut a lot of processes that are established

already and have like people working on them. But that's like

you said Photoshop is that too, right? There used to be other

tools to manipulate images before and it used to be like a

more physical, it's like editing, editing video, right?

People used to actually cut like, physically cut the stuff

My dad did that

It got digitized. All of a sudden, you do in a second what

took hours to get done. Right?

Exactly. Now you can edit with your iPhone, you know, like, my

dad is a big, his favorite thing is film editing. And he did this

with, he has classic film tapes and he caught and glues

everything before. And then he had this video, instead of

professional video, like betacom and stuff. And now it's like

Final Cut Pro. But then I'm like, look at my iPhone. Like I

make videos on my iPhone now. In TikTok you can edit even faster

and it is high quality. So you know, it's all changing fast.

And yeah, we'll keep changing. AI is part of that, so.

Yeah, I find it so interesting that you get to see both sides,

you get the boring project. I'm not gonna call Nomad List as

boring, but it kinda is like in terms of the, you know, the hype

around it. It's just used by the people that need it. And that's

it.

Yeah

And you get the hype ish projects that get the headlines

that get like, coverage in the press and that kind of stuff.

Yeah, but this was Nomad List before of course. Nine years ago

no, Nomad List got a lot of like, it was in New York Times,

it was in all articles. I was like, oh my God, Nomad's gonna

go everywhere. So it was hype and then hype ends, it becomes

normal. It becomes mainstream.

Do you think like, being a nomad is still something like,

obviously I see you traveling around the world. My question,

but it's not like it's still around, obviously. Nomadism

isn't dead, right? But is it still something that you

personally do? Or do you want to do this forever? Same like with

your business, do you want to keep being an indie hacker

forever? Do you still want to travel?

Man, like this problem, this idea of the unknown. It's like

most of them are slow mads and they start out very fast. They

go like, you know, sometimes week to week, two different

place that kind of like backpacking, then it becomes

month to month and then it becomes like three months

usually or six months in one place. And I feel and I also

slowed down a lot like with COVID I just stopped. Everybody

stopped traveling, right? This year was kind of crazy with

travel. But before I was, you know, I tried to like keep it to

like two countries. And I think for mental health also like, I

think you do go crazy if you keep traveling so much. I

personally do. I did, you know? Because you don't know where you

are anymore. Like there was literally things with nomads,

you wake up and there's a thing like they don't know, like where

am I? You look outside. Oh, okay. I'm in Croatia or you know

this stuff?

Yeah

Man, it's probably not so good. But it's very interesting

lifestyle. But I think long term like man, if you have a

relationship and if you have kids later all this stuff. I

still think you can move. But you probably want to limit to a

few places, you know and I think we just become the same as what

people like retirees do. They are like in America, right? What

are they called? Like birds like winter birds or something like

Snow birds

Snowbirds, in the winter, they go to Florida and in the summer,

they go to New York or something. This is the setup. So

it's just it's gonna go to the same thing. And I do it already

like Europe in the South. It gets cold in the winter. I try

to go to Asia, Southeast Asia where it's warm. I try and mix

like the big city Asia with small village, Southern Europe

on the beach. I think this works for me. Of course personal works

here. But yeah, nomadism is still very active and lively and

there's real like spots like Bali is still a very big spot

and Thailand also and Mexico. With the Americas now coming in

because they can work remotely a lot of them are by default

nomads and they live in Mexico. But yeah, nomads a lot, probably

less. You know, but a lot of people are living in not their

original countries now because of remote work. And it's kind of

called digital nomading, right?

I guess. Yeah. And in a way anybody working from a computer

is a digital nomad, right?

In another country, like in another country, in their home

country and that's become very normal. So I think it's still

like, I think it's still very cool lifestyle. Like, if I was

20, I would not go probably to university anymore. I would just

go travel with my laptop and try little startups and stuff. And

travel is such a, especially solo travel, you have to

survive, you have to meet people like so, everybody has social

anxiety these days. So you have to go out there and talk to

people and you learn how to talk to strangers. And you know, I

was very probably shy before now I'm not because I learned how to

talk. I learned to go out of my room and you know and survive.

And I think this stuff you learn from traveling. Every city you

go, you can be a new personality, you can test your

personalities, you know, sounds a little psychopathic. But you

know, your AB test, yeah. You know in your hometown, you're

this certain Arvid. But then you go out of your country, you

become international Arvid. You're like, very different. And

you try this, you know, you try to be very extrovert and you

can, a lot of people test this and I think that's very cool

benefit of nomading.

That sounds awesome. And it also sounds like kind of sounds like

Twitter to me, where you can also be the person that you want

to be, right? Like you project like the best parts, hopefully,

or the worst parts of your personality on to social media.

How do you deal with that? Like you have a pretty sizable

following now. And with all the changes that have been recently

made to Twitter or X, as we call it, right? There's a lot of

difference in how we approach engagement and what gets views,

what gets like retweeted, what gets actually pushed by the

algorithm. How do you deal with this? Because you have a lot of

reach.

Man. So I think the algorithm has changed with Elon changing

it and the team because before everything would kind of get

views and likes, right? It would take with everything would get

like you know, get exposure. A lot of people would see your

tweets anyway, whatever you wrote and some would go viral a

little bit. I think they changed it more to like, where if

something goes viral in the beginning, it becomes pumped

maximum. So it goes like before I would get like 100 retweets.

Now if something viral it gets 1000 retweets, goes very far.

But on the other side, often many tweets get like two likes.

Yes

You know and I have 300,000 followers

So bizarre. It's weird, right?

So I think they test in the beginning. Once you tweet a

Yeah, it's really bad. It's kind of disappointing, right? Because

test, does this feed work or not? Do people care about it?

And I think how they test it, they check how many seconds you

if you just tweet something honest, that is just you know,

watch the tweets, the people who watch your tweets, you scroll

through and they they count now the numbers, the seconds and

Elon Musk said this, you know. And when this tweet doesn't

something that comes from a place that is not extreme, but

perform well, they just don't show it anymore a lot. So it

become more extreme. And this of course, creates even more

extreme Twitter because you get tweets that have to go really

far, really extreme to get, you know, like. And then they get a

lot of retweets or nothing.

it's still important. And it gets just like washed away and

buried beneath all the outrage things, kind of makes Twitter a

less enjoyable platform, at least for me.

Yeah, I think so like product updates. They don't really like

I used to always, I always do product updates, like I made

this new feature. And they used to get like, you know, like, a

lot of views. They get less, much less now because it's not

that interesting. It's kind of like yeah, it's kind of nice,

you know, so the long term kind of vibe of Twitter changed a

little bit. But I do have faith in our great leader, Elon Musk,

you know. He can improve it. I think it's a survival thing.

Like they need to get more monthly active users. They need

to become more like TikTok. TikTok is maximus algorithm.

Like they check every video they see if it works or not. And then

they pump it also. I think he's on TikTok a lot and checking

this and he wants to make Twitter very similar. And all of

the vidoes, of texts, but then with the TikTok algorithm. So

you know, you have OKRs like the metric target, which is like

more users and now I think Twitter has a record use like

500 million active users, monthly active users, so it does

work but it changes the vibe a little bit. But I ignored I just

still tried tweet whatever I think and man, if nobody cares

anymore, I'll keep tweeting because I was tweeting and

nobody cared 10 years ago. I'll just keep tweeting, you know.

That's exactly right

It's about your own, you know, your own. You should enjoy. You

shouldn't do it for the audience maybe

Yeah. And the people who enjoy what you do, they will find you,

right? Like if you're just consistent enough

They'll go to your profile and they read your stuff, right?

They will maybe not seen in the time now, they will go to there

so I think man, like don't be tread boy, you know, like don't

do like the five things you need the five AI tools you needed to

verse 24.

Number three will surprise you, right?

Number 3 will shock you. Yeah, it's bullshit. Man, what I loved

one thing interesting. He also increased these long posts like

now you can write blog posts.

Yes

These blog posts by definition get a lot of view time because

of seconds. Right? These do work really well. So it's almost like

a blog platform. So man, a lot of times I've just started

writing blog posts now on Twitter.

Yeah, I've seen this too. And video too, right? Like any kind

of medium to long form video really does well, like if people

just keep watching it a couple seconds because it's so

interesting. But that's the interesting thing about Twitter.

Now you need to take YouTube ideas, the idea of YouTube intro

For a seconds, right? You won't believe what's next, go!

Mr. Beast style and you need thumbnails and all that stuff

now on Twitter as well if you want to professionalize. It just

feels it's different. And maybe that's the exact same sentiment

as we had earlier, indie hacking dead, nomadism dead, Twitter

dead. We all that kind of the old ones, at least. It's all

new. Right? It's all just different at this point.

Yeah, it feels like it's but you have these time schisms?

You know, where a lot of things change suddenly, for this is

Yes

definitely COVID, of course. This COVID years and maybe

effects was more 2021, big schism, like we're in a new

cycle. Now look at the recession, also and man

honestly, the cycles are usually seven years. That's why I always

say seven year cycle, you can search on Wikipedia, economic

cycles usually seven years

Contracting economic cycles?

I don't know. Is that the same?

I think it has name

Yeah. But also like economic cycles are social cultural

cycles, too.

Yeah

Like when there was a recession in 2008, you would see these

hipster coffee shops pop up in Amsterdam, I remember this

vividly. It changed the culture to kind of scrappy and hipster

and it changes fashion. You know, it changes everything. So

there's definitely big cycles and we're in a new cycle now. AI

is part of this new cycle, right? So in seven years, it's

all gonna go full again and something new come. So but I

think yeah, again, don't be angry about the changes, just

embrace and reinvent yourself for this new time. And you

always need to reinvent yourself, right?

Yeah, I think you're right. It is an attention economy. Right?

Now, everybody has very limited attention because everybody's

pulling at it from all sides. I talked to Aprilynne Alter about

this YouTube thing too, right? Because she knows how to do a

good YouTube video. It was funny, I had her on the show.

And the day after that, she published a video that went

viral, it's now had like 200,000 views or something. She knows

what she's doing. It was really cool. And, like, I watched her

video on how to do an intro to YouTube video. And the whole

idea is to make it absolutely clear what the promise is of the

video, what you're going to do and then surprise people and

give a bit more than they expected. It's really just

trying to get people to feel confident in giving you their

attention for a longer time.

But that's like a tweet, right? The problem I have, so I thought

about it and I did this and then I solved the problem. Here's how

to do it yourself. You know, it is a formula.

Yeah. And it's required because you need to be able to stand out

amongst other people who are also interested in getting

attention. It's just a new way to communicate. We used to, we

had a time where we wrote letters all the time. And then

email came along. And then social media came along. And now

we have this. And this is I guess, just what we have to deal

with.

But the attention economy has always become it's always become

less attention. Like you used to have long movies and then it

became TV shows. And it became YouTube videos. Now TikToks.

Next will be like, just one second video or something, you

know, like, I don't know. But it's always been by this. But

now I feels both because you have long podcasts like Joe

Rogan has three hour podcasts and I listen to the whole

things. And it might take me days because I listen a little

bit here. And next I listen to it here. And then you also have

the clips, you have TikTok clips of podcasts. So it works both.

You have this outlier, you know, like, what do you call the

economy of both sides. So

Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense. Like it's kind of

the you should be zigging when everybody else is zagging,

right? That kind of thing. Now you can do long form content for

the people who really care about it. And everybody else needs to

short term stuff and even for the short form content, you can

still do the clips so you get your long form but in short

Exactly!

Yeah, it's the more I do like of podcasts and YouTube and writing

and newsletter, whatever I do. I do a lot of things, but they're

all on based on the same material. I just use different

ways of distributing the same material. And maybe that is the

lesson here, right? That's depending on the media,

depending on the medium, like the social media platform or

YouTube or whatever, you just have to shape it the right way

for people to consume it.

Yeah, I think you can learn a lot from these big, big famous

influencers even if you don't like them. Man, they will say

like, outrageous stuff. Like, I don't like this guy, Andew Tate,

for example. They, he says, really radical stuff that's very

controversial and too much, you know and then the long form

parts is quite balanced. Like he kind of softens down. He's like,

what actually what I think. Man, I don't think he's very honest

but there's something to be learned there where if you say

things that are quite packable into shorts, like answers, that

person that can package their answer in the first sentence

probably well and then go for long form, this will get clipped

and this person will get more views than a person who cannot

make a proper sentence first to summarize, you know. So becoming

good at writing tweets and even talking now in a short sentence

is becoming like an integral. Man, it can make you rich or

not, right? Because if your video goes viral, you become

famous and you sell products. So, man, that's like a skill,

you know? I don't know if I'm good at it because I ramble.

Well, me too, but we're both trying our best, right? At least

we're trying, we're in the arena and not on the sidelines. Right?

Yeah, exactly.

A lot of the things you say, a lot of people have opinions

about like, just, you know, you can get a lot of trolls and you

get a lot of people to turn your stuff into memes. How do you

feel about that, like in particular?

Man, it's great. It's like, it's amazing. Like, these memes are

amazing. And, man, what do you expect? Like you tweet like, you

know, controversial stuff

Right

Yeah, for sure.

To a lot of people and of course, people going to, people

get like, even like, you know, friends of friends, they message

and chat like, man, what you tweeted now it's too much,

unacceptable. I'm unfollowing you. I can't do it. You can't

say this about this framework, you know, because I use it.

People get really triggered. Man, I don't know. I think it's

really funny. It's like, but you need to see it as kind of like a

game. You know, man, it sounds psychopathic sociopathic, but

it's you cannot take seriously like it. It's impossible to see

it as a normal conversation because we have a normal

But people who are smart, they understand, okay, this guy is on

conversation. But if you have now you add 300,000 people on

the other side is just shouting. It's like lynch mob. So and this

changes you I think and you have to watch out doesn't change your

personality in real life, you know, because you become but it

does a little bit of course. But I think the benefits generally

outweigh the negatives. You made a lot of cool people like you.

Like most of my friends, I met via Twitter, you know and we met

on Twitter. A lot of famous people also like people that do

really cool stuff. They DM me and we talk and stuff and it's

like wow, super cool. Like, man, like I talk with DJ Fresh

because when I used to make music, drum and bass music, DJ

Fresh was very important figure in music. Now he makes AI

startup tool called voice-swap.ai, plug it. And we

DM and we talk about a lot of stuff. And I'm like talking to

my drum, bass idol. You know, it's the same. It's like, every

time I'm still shocked. So and I think the more you can even if

you read controversial stuff because it's your real being,

you get a lot of attention and via this, people understand it's

Twitter, we don't understand. It's like a stage. You know,

a platform and he's doing a show thing. And you have to take

it's a show kinda

everything with a grain of salt, you know and but at true, I try

to say things honestly. I don't say things just to bullshit, you

Yeah, I guess, if you have controversial opinions, the

authentic representation is just to talk to people about those

things, right? To share these opinions. Like you don't hide

them. You just you don't become like the person that is happy

know.

with every single thing or is like really, really appreciative

of every opinion. You just say what you say.

And you try to be honest and apparently that's like

controversial, but of course it becomes controversial because

there's so many people. They don't have to be will disagree

with you. So then it becomes by definition controversial, but

it's not really controversial, you know and the problem is if

you get scared and most people get scared of these and then

they start tweeting like basic normal stuff and it's not

interesting anymore. And I think the reason a lot of people

follow me is because they know I'm honest and I'm not perfect.

And I write whatever I think and it's usually crazy. But I also I

like this yeah, but I like to say opinions and then like about

frameworks or something and I say something and then I like to

hear what people like when people reply. I learned from

that and I changed my opinions. Like I have strong opinions

weekly held. I do change my opinions all the time. And but

it's a stage it's like a podium, it's a show kind of. It's

inevitable that it becomes a show. It's very difficult not to

make it and you have people like Lex Fridman, for example. He's

very cool. And he gets a lot of hate also. And he chooses to

talk more about like, love, like, we're all connected one

world and everybody loves each other. And I liked that too. But

it's not really my personal style. My first thought was just

saying what I think. I want to keep being true to myself. I

don't want to become fake, you know. And that seems fake. But

he chooses love. I choose more like, what's on my heart, it's

on my tongue. Like it's a German Dutch expression, I think. And I

put that on Twitter, I tried to keep it in all in sync, you

know. I don't like to be different offline, you know?

Yeah, that's perfectly fine. And that's why I appreciate your

tweets. I know that when you tweet something, even if it's

controversial, it comes from an honest, truthful place. And that

is the way you think about it. And that is the way you will

talk about it. And I know what I get, right? That's the thing.

It's very, authentically you. And I think that is a really,

really smart way to building an audience or whatever you might

want to call it, or just have a Twitter presence or social media

presence, is just to not hide who you are. And kind of stand

behind the things you say.

That's so difficult because people are getting really angry

and they hate you for your opinions. And people, yeah, you

see these breakdowns on Twitter, right? People just have a

meltdown because they get so much hate. I get this every day.

Me too. Yeah, I think we both follow many, many people through

lists and followers. And I think over the last three days, I saw

like four people saying, I'm gonna need a break from Twitter.

This is enough, right? And it's unfortunate that when it comes

to that because people and I'm the same way, like I post

something 30 people say, this is really cool. One person says,

this sucks. And all I focus on is this one person and not the

30 other people that really enjoyed what I said, right?

That's typical. Yeah

Yeah, it's really bad. But hey, let's end this on a high note. I

think your Twitter account is awesome. I think you're sharing

just your honesty, sharing things that you encounter in

your daily coder entrepreneurial life. And I think that is

absolutely worth sometimes getting into controversial

fights with other people who have no skin in the game

whatsoever, but a lot of opinions. So where would you

like people to go to follow you if they don't already? But where

would you like people to go to look at what you do, how you do

it, and the projects that you're building?

I think Twitter, X now you know, x.com/levelsio. Yeah. Thank you

for having me. And I'm big fan of your Twitter account, too.

I'm a big fan of you, man. It's so nice. It's taken a couple of

Thank you, man! It's an honor to hear, man! Very nice!

years for us to have a chat finally. But I'm super happy to

be got to talk about all of this today. I'm really, really

looking forward to seeing like where you're indie hacker

journey, if that is still what you consider yourself to be

It's been a pleasure. Thanks for being on the show.

takes you in the future. And thanks for building all of these

things in public. You're a role model to a lot of us. So thanks

so much.

Thank you for having me.

And that's it for today. Pieter mentioned that he'd be open to

sell his AI businesses eventually. And I know just the

right place for him to list those businesses. I will now

briefly thank my sponsor for today: acquire.com. Imagine this

and it's not gonna be hard because Pieter just talked about

this the whole time. You're a founder who's built a really

solid SaaS product, you acquired massive amounts of customers,

you're getting consistent monthly recurring revenue.

That's the SaaS dream, as explained and evidenced by

Pieter's AI tools. The problem is you're not growing for

whatever reason, maybe lack of focus, lack of skill, lack of

interest, and you just feel stuck in your business and with

your business. In Pieter's case, it's really unawareness of where

things are gonna go, right? Is the stuff still going to be

around in a couple months? Can I still run this business by

myself? Or should somebody take over? Well, the story here at

this point, in many cases, is that people would love to hear

that you buckled down, reignited the fire. You worked on the

business, not just in the business, you build an audience

and you marked a new sales and outreach growing team and

whatever. Six months down the road, people would love to hear

that you made all that money, right? You've tripled your

revenue, you've built this hyper successful business, but reality

is unfortunately not as simple as this. And the situation that

you might find yourself in might be very different. And every

founder is facing this crossroad in a different way. But too many

times, the story that follows is the same. It ends up being one

of inaction and stagnation until your business itself becomes

less and less valuable over time or worse, completely worthless.

So if you find yourself here already or you think that your

personal story is likely headed down a similar road, I would

consider a third option. And that's selling your business on

acquire.com. Because capitalizing on the value of

your time today is a pretty smart move. It's the only time

you have. Acquire.com is free to list. They've helped hundreds of

founders already. So go to try.acquire.com/arvid and see

for yourself if this is the right option for you and your

business right now.

Thank you so much for listening to The Bootstrapped Founder

today. You can find me on Twitter @arvidkahl. You find my

books and my twitter course there too. And if you want to

support me and the show, please subscribe to my YouTube channel,

that would be really appreciated. Just get and rate

the podcast in your podcast player of choice and leave a

rating and a review by going to (http://ratethispodcast.com/founder).

It really makes a massive difference for me. Because if

you show up there, can rate and review, then the podcast will

show up in other people's feeds. And that just means more people

get to learn from people like Pieter today. Any of this will

help the show. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful

day and bye bye.