Dr. Robert Cialdini, the godfather of influence

Summary

In this insightful interview, Guy Kawasaki speaks with Dr. Robert Cialdini, the 'Godfather of Influence,' about his work on persuasion and the power of a growth mindset. Cialdini shares his expertise on the optimal response to 'thank you,' the importance of understanding the principles of influence, and how to effectively use them in various situations, including politics and marketing. The conversation highlights the ethical considerations of using persuasive techniques and the role of the 'convert communicator' in changing minds. Cialdini's profound understanding of social psychology offers valuable lessons for anyone looking to enhance their influence and communication skills.

Takeaways

• 🌟 Bob Cialdini, known as the 'Godfather of Influence', has significantly impacted marketing, evangelism, sales, and personal development with his work.
• 📚 Cialdini's book 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion' serves as a guiding light for conducting business and shaping lifestyle choices.
• 🤝 When someone thanks you, an optimal response is 'I know you would do the same for me', which emphasizes future reciprocity and strengthens social bonds.
• 📈 Cialdini suggests that the quality of returns for a favor declines over time, so it's beneficial to provide opportunities for immediate reciprocation.
• ⚾️ Cialdini's initial career path involved a chance to play minor league baseball, but a wise scout advised him to pursue education instead, leading to his influential career in social psychology.
• 🏆 The six principles of influence - reciprocity, scarcity, authority, consistency, liking, and consensus - still hold power in the digital age, though the internet has changed how they are applied and perceived.
• 💡 The term 'peersuasion' has emerged, highlighting the significant influence of peer reviews and recommendations in the digital marketplace.
• 📖 Cialdini's book 'Persuasion' differentiates between 'persuasion', which focuses on the message content, and 'pre-suasion', which primes the audience to be more receptive to the message.
• 🎯 Pre-suasion can be powerful, as it directs the audience's attention to related concepts before the main message is delivered, thus making it more appealing.
• 🤔 Ethical concerns arise when influence techniques are used dishonestly; consumers should be vigilant and respond to deceptive practices by sharing their experiences online.
• 🚀 Cialdini's insights and strategies continue to be highly relevant and applicable, encouraging individuals to adopt a growth mindset and effectively persuade in various aspects of life.

Q & A

What is the main topic of discussion in the podcast?

The main topic of discussion in the podcast is the concept of a growth mindset and the principles of influence and persuasion, as discussed by Bob Cialdini, the 'Godfather of Influence'.

How does Bob Cialdini respond to someone thanking him?

Bob Cialdini suggests responding not just with 'You're welcome,' but with 'I know you would do the same for me,' which implies a future reciprocation and strengthens the relationship.

What is the significance of the phrase 'I know you would do the same for me'?

The phrase 'I know you would do the same for me' is significant because it refers to a future situation where the roles might be reversed, thus fostering a sense of mutual understanding and cooperation.

How does the quality of the return after a favor decline with time?

The quality of the return after a favor declines with time because the obligation to give back is strongest immediately after the favor is done, but this sense of obligation lessens over time, leading to potentially less valuable returns.

What are the six principles of influence mentioned in the book 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion'?

The six principles of influence are reciprocity, scarcity, authority, consistency, liking, and consensus/ social proof.

How has the internet changed the way these principles of influence are applied?

The internet has changed the way these principles are applied by providing access to information about the behaviors, choices, and opinions of people all over the world, thus amplifying the power of social proof and the ability to create and spread influence more broadly.

What is the difference between 'persuasion' and 'pre-suasion' as explained in the podcast?

Persuasion refers to the tactics or strategies used to move people in a desired direction once they receive a message, while pre-suasion is about preparing the recipient to be more receptive to the message before they even encounter it, by focusing their attention on related ideas.

How did Bob Cialdini become interested in the concept of pre-suasion?

Bob Cialdini became interested in the concept of pre-suasion after he experienced a situation where he gave more money than usual to a man soliciting for after-school programs for children. He realized that the man's approach, which focused on children's needs, had already persuaded him before the actual request was made.

What is the role of a 'convert communicator' in influencing people?

A 'convert communicator' is someone who was initially on one side of an argument or belief but changed their stance due to new information or experiences. They are effective influencers because their message carries more weight as they are speaking from a place of shared belief and experience.

How can the principles of influence be used ethically?

The principles of influence can be used ethically when they are applied honestly and transparently, without deception or manipulation. Consumers should be aware of communicators who use these principles and reward those who are truthful with trust and positive feedback, while calling out those who use them dishonestly.

What advice does Bob Cialdini give on how to effectively introduce a podcast or presentation?

Bob Cialdini suggests using the power of mystery to engage the audience. Instead of revealing everything upfront, he recommends creating curiosity by posing a question or hinting at an interesting fact or insight that will be revealed later, thus encouraging the audience to listen or continue to the end.

Outlines

00:00

🎤 Introduction to Growth Mindset and Influence

The script begins with a discussion on growth mindset, introducing the guest Bob Cialdini, a professor emeritus at Arizona State University, and his significant influence on marketing, evangelism, and sales. The host, Guy Kawasaki, credits Cialdini's book 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion' as a guiding light in his business and personal life, referring to Cialdini as the 'Godfather of Influence.' The conversation touches on the optimal response to gratitude and the concept of reciprocity, highlighting the importance of timing and future-oriented acknowledgments in social interactions.

05:00

🚀 The Journey of Becoming an Influence Guru

This paragraph delves into Bob Cialdini's journey to becoming a leading figure in the study of influence and persuasion. It narrates a pivotal moment where Cialdini was offered a minor league baseball contract, but a scout advised him to pursue education instead, emphasizing the importance of choosing a path where one excels. This decision led Cialdini to academia and his eventual prominence in social psychology, illustrating how chance encounters and personal choices shape one's career trajectory.

10:02

📚 The Six Principles of Influence: Then and Now

The conversation revisits Cialdini's influential book 'Influence,' focusing on the six principles of persuasion: reciprocity, scarcity, authority, consistency, liking, and consensus. Cialdini discusses how the internet has altered the application and perception of these principles, particularly the principle of social proof. He notes the ease of access to peer behaviors and opinions online, which has amplified the use of social proof. However, he also acknowledges the downside of fake consensus and the ongoing battle against fraudulent reviews in online platforms.

15:03

🤔 The Difference Between Persuasion and Pre-Suasion

This section distinguishes between persuasion and pre-suasion, explaining that persuasion focuses on tactics used to sway an audience towards a particular message, while pre-suasion is about preparing the audience to be more receptive to the message before they even encounter it. Cialdini uses the example of a study involving a new soft drink to illustrate how pre-suading individuals by focusing their attention on a related concept can significantly increase their compliance. He emphasizes the importance of timing and the strategic alignment of ideas to enhance the effectiveness of communication.

20:05

🧐 The Power of Pre-Suasion in Real-Life Scenarios

The discussion continues with real-life examples of pre-suasion's effectiveness. Cialdini narrates his personal experience of donating to a cause without the usual persuasive tactics, highlighting how the presence of a child shifted his focus and made him more generous. He also touches on the concept of 'convert communicators,' where a message from someone who has changed their stance can be more impactful than from an authoritative figure. The conversation underscores the psychological mechanisms that pre-suasion leverages and its potential applications in various scenarios.

25:07

📈 The Underutilization of Persuasive Techniques

The host and Cialdini ponder why many companies and marketers do not fully leverage the persuasive techniques backed by scientific research. Cialdini suggests the need for a 'Chief Influence Officer' to stay updated on the latest findings and apply them across different organizational functions. The discussion highlights the gap between available scientific data and its application in marketing and sales strategies, emphasizing the need for a more systematic integration of these principles.

30:09

🗣️ The Role of Language in Influence

Cialdini and the host discuss the primary function of language as a tool for influence, rather than merely a means of conveying ideas. They explore the concept that language is designed to move and change people, shaping the way communicators engage with their audience. The conversation also touches on the importance of personalizing messages and the impact of using 'convert communicators' in marketing campaigns, illustrating how personal experiences and relatable stories can significantly enhance persuasive messaging.

35:09

💡 Applying Pre-Suasion to Encourage Vaccination

The discussion shifts to a practical application of pre-suasion, with Cialdini suggesting strategies to encourage vaccination by focusing on the concepts of partnership and community rather than health and safety alone. He emphasizes the power of social proof and the effectiveness of using 'convert communicators' to share their changed perspectives and experiences. The conversation highlights the importance of tailoring persuasive messages to resonate with the audience's values and concerns.

40:10

🌐 Ethical Considerations in Pre-Suasion and Influence

Cialdini reflects on the ethical implications of his findings, expressing concern about the potential misuse of persuasive techniques. He emphasizes the responsibility of consumers to engage with communicators who use these principles ethically and honestly. The conversation also touches on the importance of verifying the authenticity of persuasive claims and the role of the internet in empowering consumers to challenge and expose unethical practices.

🎙️ Wrapping Up: Reflections on the Power of Influence

The podcast concludes with the host expressing gratitude to Bob Cialdini for his insights on influence and persuasion. The host reflects on how Cialdini's principles have significantly impacted his own speeches and presentations, highlighting the timeless and effective nature of Cialdini's work. The conversation ends with the host's commitment to applying the learned skills in his future endeavors, emphasizing the transformative power of understanding and utilizing the principles of influence.

Keywords

💡Growth Mindset

A growth mindset refers to the belief that one's abilities and intelligence can be developed through dedication and hard work. In the context of the video, it is used to introduce the guest's philosophy and approach to learning and personal development. The host, Guy Kawasaki, implies that having a growth mindset is essential for embracing new ideas and strategies discussed in the podcast.

💡Bob Cialdini

Bob Cialdini is a professor emeritus at Arizona State University and is known as the 'Godfather of Influence.' His work on the psychology of persuasion has significantly impacted marketing, sales, and various decision-making processes. In the video, he is the guest and his expertise is central to the discussion on influence, persuasion, and the principles that govern these aspects in human interactions.

💡Influence

Influence is the capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of someone or something, often used in the context of persuasion and marketing. In the video, Cialdini's book 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion' is highlighted as a guiding light for conducting business and life decisions. The discussion revolves around strategies to effectively use influence in various scenarios.

💡Reciprocity

Reciprocity is a social norm that suggests that people are obligated to return favors or respond to generous acts. In the video, it is one of the six principles of influence discussed by Cialdini. It is illustrated through the idea that people feel compelled to give back after receiving something, which can be leveraged in sales and marketing to encourage customer loyalty and positive responses.

💡Scarcity

Scarcity refers to the perception that something is in short supply or available for a limited time, thereby increasing its perceived value and desirability. In the context of the video, scarcity is mentioned as one of the six principles of influence that can motivate people to take action, such as purchasing a product before it runs out or missing out on a limited-time offer.

💡Social Proof

Social proof is a psychological phenomenon where people conform to the actions of others under the assumption that those actions are reflective of the correct behavior. In the video, it is another of Cialdini's six principles of influence. The host discusses how the internet has amplified the impact of social proof by providing easy access to information about others' behaviors and choices, thus influencing individuals' decisions.

💡Authority

Authority refers to the power or right to give orders, make decisions, or enforce obedience. In the context of the video, it is one of Cialdini's six principles of influence. Authority figures can persuade others to follow their recommendations or commands because people tend to respect and comply with those perceived as experts or in positions of power.

💡Liking

Liking is a principle of influence based on the tendency of people to be more receptive to requests or ideas from those they perceive as similar to themselves or whom they have a positive relationship with. In the video, it is one of Cialdini's six principles and is discussed as a factor that can increase the effectiveness of persuasion strategies, as people are more likely to say 'yes' to someone they like or identify with.

💡Consensus

Consensus refers to general agreement or acceptance among a group of people. In the video, it is one of the six principles of influence highlighted by Cialdini. It is used to illustrate how people are more likely to adopt behaviors, beliefs, or opinions when they believe that others within their community or peer group are doing the same.

💡Pre-suasion

Pre-suasion is the process of aligning the mindset of the audience before presenting the main message to make it more receptive. In the video, Cialdini explains that by focusing people's attention on a concept related to the core element of the message before they receive it, they become more favorable to the message. This technique is used to illustrate the importance of preparing the audience's mindset for effective communication.

💡Peersuasion

Peersuasion is a term coined in the video to describe the influence of peers on an individual's decision-making process. It emphasizes the power of personal experiences and testimonials from people who were once in the same position as the target audience but have since changed their stance or behavior. In the context of the video, it is presented as a highly effective method of persuasion, as it leverages the trust and relatability of peers over traditional authority figures.

Highlights

Bob Cialdini, the Godfather of influence, shares insights on persuasion and his impact on business and personal conduct.

Cialdini's book 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion' is a guiding light for many in marketing, evangelism, and sales.

The optimal response to 'thank you' is 'I know you would do the same for me', creating a sense of future reciprocity.

Cialdini's advice on telling people how they can repay you is still a best practice for maintaining relationships and obligations.

The six principles of influence (reciprocity, scarcity, authority, consistency, liking, and consensus) remain powerful, though the internet has changed their application.

The concept of 'peersuasion' is gaining prominence, where peer recommendations hold significant sway over purchasing decisions.

Cialdini's journey to becoming an influence guru was not planned, but rather a series of fortunate events and choices.

The importance of having a 'chief influence officer' in organizations to apply scientific evidence for better decision making and influence strategies.

The primary function of language is to influence people, not just to convey ideas.

Cialdini's process of collecting sources for his book 'Influence' was driven by personal experiences and literature exploration.

The power of using a 'convert communicator' in persuasion, someone who has changed their stance and can influence peers.

Cialdini's thoughts on the ethics of using persuasion techniques, emphasizing the importance of honest and ethical communication.

The strategy of introducing a mystery to engage listeners and create anticipation for the resolution.

Guy Kawasaki's approach to interviews, focusing on preparing thoroughly and asking meaningful questions.

Cialdini's influence extends beyond academic circles, with his principles being applied and recognized by various professionals.

The importance of having a growth mindset, as introduced by the podcast host, which is essential in life and business.

Cialdini's discussion on the use of social proof in politics, and how it can sway public opinion.

The role of consumers in ensuring ethical use of influence tactics, by responding to deceptive practices and advocating for transparency.

Transcripts

[Music]

before I introduce this episode's guest

I want to ask you a question do you have

a growth mindset my guest is Bob

cialdini he is a professor emeritus at

Arizona State University he influences

almost every marketing evangelism and

sales decision that I make his book

influence the psychology of persuasion

is The Guiding Light for how I conduct

business and in many ways how I live my

life

in short ciardini is the Godfather of

influence

he is to changing people's minds what

Martha Stewart is to changing people's

lifestyles

have you ever wondered how to optimally

respond when someone thanks you keep

listening and you'll find out I'm guy

Kawasaki and this is remarkable people

and now here is Bob cialdini

[Music]

one of my favorite lessons from your

book is of course the optimal thing to

say when someone says thank you and in

your book you say it's more than you're

welcome it's also I know you would do

the same for me now I read that years

ago so bring me up to speed is that

still optimal

it is and I liked especially the tents

that you used there

it shouldn't be oh I know you would have

done the same for me

that's somewhere in the past I know that

you will do the same for me okay in the

future right so you wanted to move you

would do the same for me in this in the

future rather than if the situation had

been reversed you would have done the

same for me don't Don't Point them to

the past that's gone I'm going to say I

know you would do the same for me if the

situation were ever reversed yes well I

have told that story with full credit

but actually in many cases with your

book

uh cover on the screen when I tell that

story so I have I have proselytized the

the word of Bob all over the world

because I just was up that story very

hardening you hear and you know so

follow on to that one of another piece

of your advice in your book is that the

you should also tell people how they can

repay you so is that still a best

practice it turns out that the um the

quality of the return you get after a

favor

declines with time so give them an

opportunity to offer something in return

close to the thanks that that you

deserved

can it be as close as you know the

person says thank you and I say I know

you would do the same for me and by the

way here's how right now well it

wouldn't be in those terms but the

timing I mean if you read the the

research is really quite clear as soon

as the ACT is done the obligation to

give back is there but the amount you

get back declines over time how did you

become to be what I consider the de

facto Guru of influence and persuasion

in the world

by accident

okay how did the accident occur yeah so

when I was uh in getting out of the high

school I got an offer to play minor

league baseball and I wanted to be you

know with Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays I

was a center fielder and uh there was a

scout who was willing to sign me to play

a Class D baseball little towns and uh

and I was very excited and uh he uh

brought a contract with him at my last

game and his pen didn't work so we went

walked to the car uh where he had

another pen and he said let me ask you

something are you any good at school I

said yes

enough to

go get through college

I said yes he said do you like school

yes

and he took the pen and put it in his

pocket and he said go to school kid go

to school

your chances of making the majors are

slim and

um I'd recommend that you do something

you like and that you're really good at

and uh and so we're talking here today

because I didn't go try to be a a major

league baseball player which would have

failed completely you know I would have

wound up in the major leagues instead

not in the minor league I'm sorry in the

minor leagues in some small town in

Nebraska right and uh my career would

have ended there and uh maybe by the

time I figured out that I was not good

enough maybe I would have had a wife and

maybe even a a baby I wouldn't have been

able to go to school at that point I

would have been the assistant manager of

the Pizza Hut in Cozad Nebraska

instead you and I are talking

[Music]

and today you are basically the

Willie Mays or Reggie Jackson of social

psychology so there you go

yeah well thank you for that but I I I

recognized that it was a fork in the

road in that and and sometimes luck and

Serendipity have a big role in

um in where we go and how far we go

that is a great story but you then had

to get a bachelor's and a PhD and even

beyond that you had to establish your

reputation as a teacher and write these

books I mean it wasn't just that no it

was the I I won't say that I'm I'm not

suited for uh the professorial role and

the researcher and so and I loved it and

and and I was uh I was pretty good at it

so those things had to be there too but

all that could have been true but

the assistant manager of the Pizza Hut

wouldn't have been able to display those

skills if the road had gone differently

that's all that's all yeah okay

influence is one of my favorite books it

was a huge influence on me throughout my

career and I would just like to revisit

that a little bit the six principles of

reciprocity scarcity Authority

consistency liking and consensus

uh any hindsight on that is it you know

the six are still good to go you you

have any uh thoughts uh you know I do

two kinds of thoughts uh one is that the

internet has changed

the availabilities of those various

principles in our culture by far one of

those principles consensus or social

proof as we call it in the book the

extent to which uh we are likely to

change to the extent that we see other

people around us performing a different

action or having a different belief or

opinion that we currently have so uh and

now the internet has given us access to

the behaviors and the choices and the

opinions and the beliefs and the

experiences of peers all over the place

that we wouldn't have had a chance to

get access to that's certainly one thing

it's not that the six principles have

changed in their power as human

Tendencies it's just that we have access

to information about what others around

us like us are doing are choosing our

believing and so on and we're much more

likely as a result of those uh of those

sorts of information to use them in ways

that uh didn't didn't exist when I first

wrote that book

now is this good news bad news because I

I'm a glass half full kind of guy also

but for every for every benefit that you

just mentioned there's also the ability

to create fake consensus

today yes right there is and the the

review sites for example that have

numbers of stars and ratings and so on

are in constant combat with the fakers

the people who are trying to provide

phony reviews or uh sometimes they pay

for reviews of of of other peoples to do

it and so those review sites have

algorithms now designed to identify and

weed out those fake reviews but of

course uh the the Fabricators are going

to find other ways to get around that so

they're in a constant battle with it

nonetheless

there's research to show that of people

who buy uh products and services over

the internet

over 90 percent

look to product reviews first before

they choose and are greatly influenced

by them you and I are both authors and I

would say if if somebody said to me guy

you could either have the New York Times

review your book or you could have a

four and a half or five star rating on

Amazon which would you pick I would pick

the Amazon rating over a review by the

New York Times book review

I agree if your interest is uh not

getting some sort of elite

acknowledgment but other but but to get

your message out and get people

interested in buying your book because

of

peers have recognized the quality of it

we even have a term for this I'm going

to call it peersuasion instead of

persuasion it's very powerful

peersuasion is all the rage right now

Bob you are a master of

coinage of phrases so I love persuasion

that's fantastic is that book the next

book well it's certainly a candidate

yeah okay you better you better

trademark that before I grab it

[Laughter]

well speaking on the P words so we

started with persuasion and one of your

latest books or perhaps the latest book

is persuasion so can you explain the

difference between persuasion and

persuasion yes

persuasion is the uh is it refers to

what you do as a communicator

to put into your message

to arrange for people to move in your

direction what do you you can describe

scarcity you can describe

credibility of you can describe social

proof Authority all these kinds of

things that you can put into your

message that inclines people to say yes

to it

persuasion is not about what you put

into your message it's about what you

put into the moment before you send your

message

to make people more

sympathetic to it

before they encounter it now that sounds

like some kind of magic right how do you

get people to agree with a message when

they don't know what's in it

well as a communicator you know what's

in it

so it's if it's possible to focus people

on an idea or a concept that is related

to the Core

element of your message

before they receive the message

when they then encounter it that concept

they will be more favorable to it let me

give you an example a study was done in

in in which marketers walked up to

people on the street and and gave them a

flyer asking them if they wanted to try

a brand new soft drink that's not even

on the market yet right and but to do it

they had to get these people had to give

their email address to this stranger

so he could send them a message about

how to get this case of uh new soft

drink right

and that produced about

um

29

Ascent right 29 said yes okay I'll give

you my

the other half right got that same flyer

but before they

received it

they saw at the top of the flyer the

words do you consider yourself an

adventurous person

it focused people on their

adventurousness

and now 75 percent

gave their

email address to get something new so

you put people in Mind of a concept like

adventurousness that is related to the

idea of trying something new and you get

an enormous

leverage as a result the question I now

have is so are you saying that

persuasion and persuasion are both

important or persuasion is more

important than persuasion uh is there a

is there either or what is it it it's

it's the first thing you said they're

both important but one of them

persuasion is where we have always

focused our efforts as communicators uh

and and we have been remiss in

recognizing that there's a moment before

we deliver our message that can be just

as powerful in moving people in our

Direction

um

and and

I I see it all around me now that I've

thought about this idea but I uh uh I

know that uh other people have thought

about this but not in in such a a a a

detailed and conceptual way as I tried

to do in the book to explain why this

works the way it does for me

when we focus people's attention on an

idea

it becomes for a moment more important

to us

than any other idea because we find

ourselves

focusing on it and we have a long

history of assuming that if we're

focusing on an idea it must be important

to us if we're paying attention to us to

it it must be important to us that

usually works but a communicator can get

us to pay attention to an idea by

drawing our Focus to it

and we assume that because we're paying

attention to it it must be important

and that's the that's the the effect

right

I I love when you you bring up this

example of what greater percentage of

email addresses you got also in the book

you talk about going to a website and

you show clouds and and when you show

clouds people are more cognizant about

the comfort factor of their sofas than

the cost saving of their sofas just by

changing between showing clouds or

showing pennies so I love these kind of

stories now I have a question for you as

an author though I went through

persuasion and I looked at the fact that

you have roughly 90 pages of sources and

I'd say there's eight sources per page

so you have roughly 700 citations in

your book

so the question is

how the hell do you do that is it is it

you you're in you subscribe to the

Journal of Social Psychology and you've

read 700 studies and you said wow this

is really interesting I should put it in

my book or was the order well I want to

tell people about the power of

persuasion let me go find some studies

that support my thesis so which came

first

in the case of

um persuasion it is I I went to the

journals I went to all the Articles and

I saw what worked based on the research

in the case of persuasion something

happened to me that made me go into the

literature to see if I could find

confirmation of it one Saturday there

was a knock at my door there was a man

asking me to contribute to a good cause

after school programs for children in my

district right but he didn't show me any

credentials that he was from my school

district I hadn't seen

any buzz in my neighborhood about these

after school programs

but I gave him

more money about twice as much money as

I normally give to people right who come

to my door

and I remember closing the door and

saying what just happened there this guy

didn't use any of the principles I claim

I've built my reputation on claiming are

the ones you need to elevate your

success this guy didn't use any of them

and he got me to give

twice as much as I normally do what did

he do

here's what he did before he ever said a

word he brought his seven-year-old

daughter with him

[Music]

and he focused me on children

and he focused me on children's

challenges and children's needs and

children's

benefits right

and then when he gave me the argument

about the value of after-school programs

for children I was already

persuaded

to that argument I was readied for it

and sure enough it worked on me and I

remember saying to myself oh this is

different this is different than the

process of persuasion let's go track it

down in the existing literature and

before long I thought there's a book

here

[Music]

thank you

[Music]

obviously I've read your books obviously

I'm a Believer but what surprises me is

that the the conclusions and the

information

from the studies that you cite and from

your own interpretation your own your

own body of collective thought uh

there's so much great scientific data

and stuff that marketers could use

why does so much go unused why don't

people why don't companies have more

persuasive setup and why don't they have

more persuasive qualities of their

product and service the scientific data

is there I mean arguably you put them

into two books how hard could it be why

don't they use the damn thing

here's what they need they need a CIO a

chief influence officer yeah who knows

the research and can say with regard to

any new initiative any change any

problem here's what I know the evidence

the scientific evidence tells us to do

here

and who should have a staff of people

who are constantly up to date on the

newest work the newest documented

demonstrated

scientifically grounded work who can

take that knowledge and spread it to

every area within the organization to

sales to marketing to procurement to

recruitment to management

every one of those domains could benefit

everybody needs to be more influential

why shouldn't we have a chief influence

office

good point some place in Persuasion you

make the point that the the major

function of language is

to influence people yes which I never

thought of language that way yeah that's

the newest research it's not language

isn't primarily to describe or convey an

idea

that the communicator has it is to move

people it is to change people that's the

primary goal of language I'm involved

with a company called uh cheese and it

has a product called privy and privy is

a private messaging service so it's

double opt-in it's not like text

messages because anybody with your phone

number can text message you it's not

like email because anybody through email

can can email you this is the the use

case is I know exactly who I want in my

group and I have to invite them and they

have to accept so it's double opt-in so

anyway that's the gist of privy and so

I'm on the board of this company And the

tagline for privy was going to be

private messaging for family and friends

and then I read in Persuasion that you

need to personalize this and so last

night right I told them make the tagline

private messaging for your family and

friends

so did I do that right brilliant

thank you well if Bob chaldini says it's

right it's right so let's suppose that

you are given the task of we want to

encourage people to vaccinate their

children

okay yep so using persuasion would you

show a picture of healthy kids playing

together safely on a playground and do

you pre-suade them by saying

do you want your kids to be healthy or

do you show

sick measly kids and ask do you want

your kids to get sick I would show them

pictures of Partnerships and and people

together in uh common uh

working together groups because here's

the real

motivator

for individuals who are concerned about

their kids their their they don't want

to be shunned by their neighbors the

kids uh fellow

classmates the parents of the kids who

they are putting at risk

right by leaving their child

unvaccinated now everybody in the class

is at risk right so what you want to do

is move them from a focus on health and

safety to a focus on togetherness and

partnership right working together and

being part of the team part of the group

in belonging so persuasively and then

persuasively what I would do is I would

get what we call a convert Communicator

to speak to the importance of

vaccinations somebody who can honestly

say I used to be

in the anti-vaccination camp

just like you but then I saw something

happen that changed my belief so this

isn't about science now this is about a

peer

right piercuasion somebody just like me

saw something to change his or her mind

in

personal experiences that they've had

and now that message

I think is more powerful than the kind

of message from scientific authorities

who can be easily dismissed as part of

the scientific Big Pharma uh uh

Coalition trying to fool us

I couldn't you make the case that the

anti-vaxxers have used that very

effectively when they show some mom

saying the moment my kid got an MMR he

turned autistic right

yes it's a it's a social process it's a

so it's it's pure persuasion

you can get it to work in your favor by

using this concept called a convert

communicator

uh

as as an expert in Pre and persuasion

can you do without political bias

because I know what your bias is and and

you know what my bias is but what is an

analysis of Donald Trump as a pre-suader

Persuader influencer

yeah so one of the things he does

um very with a lot of of persuasion uh

is to use social proof how many times

have you heard him say

everybody's saying or a lot of people

think or I've just heard many that many

people are now saying wow

congratulations on that move into Syria

I just heard him saying that yesterday

the idea is a lot of people are

supporting this which causes people to

say oh if a lot of others like me think

this is right is likely to be right I

thought he did a terrific job in his

campaign when during his events

he would ask the media the television

cameras he would say turn around don't

just shoot the stage show all the people

who are here right and show the size of

the crowd because it was the crowd

that then convinced viewers

that

a lot of people

believe what this man is saying

I should listen he's at least

entitled to have me listen

given the kinds of crowds that he can

draw to flip that what should someone

running against him do so I'm gonna go

back to this very under employed

strategy we just talked about and that

is the convert Communicator right

where people you can say tv ads or

other kinds of of messaging

I was a trump voter right I believed him

and then I found that my job went away

or then I found that you know he failed

to pay my cousin who was working on a a

building project just because he could

or then I found I heard that my

father-in-law said

he

just

cheated him and said take me to court

well my father-in-law didn't have the

money so you find somebody who is who

was one of a supporter and then you say

but I've changed

I've changed because of something I

didn't know before right and now

everybody knows it in the way that you

message about it Apple kind of employed

that at one point when they you know

they featured I used to be a you know

True Believer it was an MS boss and then

I switched to MacIntosh and now I'm more

creative and productive same concept

where you if you take somebody's message

who was

one of you is very difficult to

disregard the validity of the message

because this was somebody who believed

what you believed right you can't just

say oh that's some wide-eyed uh crazy

man

who jumps at the newest product you know

Apple no this is somebody who once

believed what you believed but there's

new information in the system

I should listen to the next thing this

person says one of the important

offshoots of that is

essentially you are not saying

you are stupid

you are saying that I was just like you

and then I got more information because

we're both smart we should make a new

decision based on the new information

it's not that we're dumb we had the

wrong information or incomplete

information before is that the gist of

it that's the Bull's Eye do you get

people to distance themselves from a

previous commitment by saying you

weren't stupid you weren't wrong you

weren't a dupe at that time the

information that you had led to a

reasonable choice but we have new

information now

so it allows that person

to distance from that earlier choice in

a way that they wouldn't have without

pointing to new information

where we get to reset and make our

choice again that's what good decision

makers do

brilliant because of the power and

efficacy of your your techniques your

findings your thoughts here do you ever

lay it wake at night thinking oh my God

the wrong people are using what I

have figured out

yes I worry a lot about the um the

ethics of this uh of this information

but here's how I've resolved it that

we are entitled to and we should as

consumers pay attention to communicators

who use these principles ethically and

honestly the only people we should be uh

uh alarmed about knowing this is the

people who use this information in a in

a dishonest way so here's my example I

last time I bought a big screen TV I was

in a an electronic shop I wasn't looking

to buy a TV but I saw one on the shelf

that was very well priced it was on sale

and it was very highly

regarded in consumer reports I remember

reading about it so a Salesman saw me

standing there in front of the set and

he said I can see you're interested in

this I see why it's a great deal but I

have to tell you

it's our last one

and then he said

and I just got a call from a woman from

Scottsdale I live in the Scottsdale area

who said she might come by this

afternoon to get it

guy 20 minutes later I'm willing out of

the shop with this set in my cart and

I'm supposed to be the professor of

influence right yeah now here's the key

if it was really the last one if

scarcity really applied

and this salesperson didn't tell me that

it was the last one

right

and I went home to think about and I

came back the next day and it was gone I

would have shouted at this guy why

didn't you tell me it was the last one

so you know I needed that piece of

information so under those circumstances

using these principles of influence

ethically were actually those are those

people are our partners in the exchange

there are allies in the exchange if

however that was a tactic that was just

a technique that he used with everybody

he would say that oh yeah this is the

last one and then he'd go to the back

room and put another uh model on the

Shelf so here's what I did I went back

the next day to see if he was honest

with me

had been there was an empty spot on that

shelf so I went back to my office I

wrote a very positive review of that

shop and that man but if there had been

another one there

I would have written a very negative

review so here's the implication we

can't just be passive consumers we have

to go on the attack

for people who use these principles

these practices unethically who deceive

us with whether there's real scarcity

there whether there's real social proof

whether there's real Authority and so on

if they lie to us we have to we have to

fight back we have to sting them for

that so they can't benefit in a regular

way from that and the internet now

allows us to do that in ways that we

just didn't have before

oh

[Music]

so an example of that would be here's

the picture the campaign showed look at

all the people behind the candidate

and then a reporter says well here's a

picture with the wide-angle lens showing

you that those are the only hundred

people in the audience the rest of the

place was empty right or you see that

with certain kinds demographic groups

right so look there's six uh

African-American people behind the the

candidate right to who's speaking right

and then this and then the reporter says

those were the only six

in the ten thousand people were there

they just recruited all of them to make

it look like there was a general

um across uh ethnic group acceptance of

this kid as a podcaster I need to

introduce every podcast so

I want to ask you a real tactical

question one of the things that I

learned reading your book was the power

of introducing a mystery oh yeah so that

people have to listen or continue to get

the end of the mystery yeah so when I

position this podcast

should I begin it by saying something

like you will learn what a presidential

candidate should do to win from Bob yes

something or no except you would say of

all the things that Bob thought a

presidential candidate could use to win

he selected one

we'll find out what it is

[Laughter]

so okay so to use I just love this so uh

going along those lines when I introduce

Jane Goodall

I should say

I wondered what animal Jane Goodall

would like to come back as

you will find out at the end of this

podcast right something like that yes or

you might say I asked her uh which she

would come back as an even more

interestingly

why that one

and we'll find out oh my God you are the

man you're in her words

I'm gonna let you go right now because

my head is exploding with ideas about

what I have to do and change I wish we

had this conversation a month ago who

will Foster the you'll you'll uh

structure the introduction after

after the interview right so you'll know

which one to choose right yes yes that's

persuasion man that's persuasion so if

if I were to throw all your techniques

into this

I would start off by asking a question

like are you interested in learning

about

or are you interested in learning how to

optimize your life from people right and

that that's the Presa agents that sets

people up for are you a lifetime learner

uh

uh a lot of people are gonna say and

especially

for pieces of information that will

benefit you

personally and professionally

well I've got the podcast for you

because that's what we're going to do

that's what I've that's what I've

decided is the goal of this podcast to

provide that so now you know why

in almost every one of my speeches and I

speak 50 to 75 times a year

there is one slide dedicated to you

because your your information is just

it's Priceless it's Timeless it's

effective it's also very funny I've

never ever ever gotten people who said

wow that you know I already knew that or

didn't matter your stuff is so great so

I thank you Bob so much for doing this I

definitely owe you one and you know I

would do the same

so you just let me know how I can pay

you back all right guys this was this

was great I you know so many interviews

the questions are just banal or vapid

They Don't Really they they haven't made

themselves familiar with the material

this was an entirely different level of

um of experience so I appreciate it now

you know that the optimal response to

thanks is I know you would do the same

for me and you understand why I asked

the question do you have a growth

mindset at the start of this podcast

like it or not life is all about

persuading or persuading people and

you've just learned about these two

skills from the best person in the world

I'm guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable

people my thanks to the ever influential

GFC for her sound design and the ever

persuasive pick Fitzpatrick for ensuring

that you listen to this podcast

[Music]

this is remarkable people