FigBrew: Designing AI And Tools For People With Bob Baxley

Summary

In this insightful conversation, Bob Baxley, SV of Design at ThoughtSpot, discusses the transformative impact of AI on various industries, sharing personal experiences with AI tools like Chat GPT and Dolly. He emphasizes the importance of understanding AI's potential beyond current applications and adapting to its rapid evolution. Baxley also reflects on the role of designers in improving user experiences and the philosophical implications of machine intelligence, advocating for a historical perspective to address modern challenges in technology and design.

Takeaways

• 🤖 The integration of AI in various industries is transforming the way we interact with technology and its applications.
• 🚀 Bob Baxley's experience from Apple, Pinterest, and Yahoo provides insight into the evolving landscape of tech and design.
• 🧠 The discussion around AI highlights the importance of understanding its potential impact on society and the workforce.
• 🌐 The conversation emphasizes the need for a broader conceptual model of AI and its capabilities beyond current use cases like travel planning.
• 📊 Baxley's work at ThoughtSpot focuses on making data analytics accessible and straightforward for business users through a user-friendly interface.
• 🔍 The use of AI in ThoughtSpot is compared to a translation service, allowing users to query data in natural language.
• 💡 Baxley advocates for connecting with history and learning from the past to inform and improve current design practices.
• 🌟 The Apollo moon landings serve as a powerful example of large-scale human collaboration and what can be achieved with collective effort.
• 🎨 Baxley stresses the importance of designers understanding and empathizing with the end-users of their creations.
• 🔧 The challenge and opportunity for designers in the era of AI is to focus on human-centric solutions that enhance rather than complicate lives.
• 📚 Baxley encourages continuous learning and adaptation, emphasizing the value of observing 'normal' people using software to inform better design decisions.

Q & A

What is the main topic of discussion between Andrew Hogan and Bob Baxley in the transcript?

The main topic of discussion is the impact and future of Artificial Intelligence (AI) in various industries, with a focus on how AI is transforming the way people work and interact with technology.

What is Bob Baxley's current role and what previous companies has he worked for?

Bob Baxley is the SV of design at ThoughtSpot, and he has previously worked for Apple, Pinterest, and Yahoo.

How does Bob Baxley describe his experience with Chat GPT and other AI tools?

Bob Baxley describes his experience with Chat GPT and other AI tools as fascinating and mind-boggling. He used Chat GPT for travel planning and to identify themes in his collection of tweets, comparing them to the themes of stoic philosophers.

What is the mission of ThoughtSpot, according to Bob Baxley?

The mission of ThoughtSpot is to create a more fact-driven world by making data analytics accessible to business users, encouraging exploration, and rewarding curiosity.

How does ThoughtSpot use AI to simplify the user experience?

ThoughtSpot uses AI, specifically Chat GPT, as a translation service to convert natural language questions into the company's data model, allowing users to get the results they need without needing to understand the underlying data structure or complex query languages.

What challenges does Bob Baxley foresee with the increasing integration of AI in the workplace?

Bob Baxley foresees challenges related to the potential replacement of human tasks by AI, the need for workers to adapt to new roles, and the philosophical and psychological implications of what it means to be human in an age of advanced machine intelligence.

How does the discussion touch on the importance of historical context in understanding current technological advancements?

The discussion emphasizes the importance of historical context by drawing parallels between past large-scale human achievements, such as the Apollo moon landings, and current technological projects. It suggests that understanding history can provide insights into managing and innovating in the present and future.

What is Bob Baxley's perspective on the role of designers in the age of AI?

Bob Baxley believes that designers play a crucial role in ensuring that AI and technology serve humans and improve their lives. He emphasizes the need for designers to focus on user experience, understand the impact of their work on people, and continuously adapt to change.

How does the transcript highlight the significance of a culture of innovation and collaboration in large-scale projects?

The transcript highlights the significance of a culture of innovation and collaboration through examples like the Apollo program and the development of products by Apple. It suggests that a collective vision, sustained effort, and effective leadership are key to successfully executing large-scale projects.

What advice does Bob Baxley give to designers regarding dealing with change and uncertainty?

Bob Baxley advises designers to embrace change, avoid becoming too attached to specific tools or methods, and develop a mindset that is comfortable with uncertainty. He also encourages designers to learn from history and to focus on the impact of their work on users.

Outlines

00:00

🤖 The Future of AI and its Impact on Design

This paragraph discusses the future of Artificial Intelligence (AI) and its implications on the field of design. Bob Baxley, SV of design at ThoughtSpot, shares his insights on AI's role in industry, particularly focusing on tools like chat GPT and Dolly. He talks about his personal experiences with AI in travel planning and content creation, emphasizing the speed and efficiency of AI in processing information and identifying themes. The conversation highlights the transformative potential of AI and the need for designers to adapt to these technological changes.

05:01

🧠 AI and the Evolution of Computing

In this segment, the discussion delves into the philosophical aspects of AI and its impact on the evolution of computing. The speakers reflect on the historical development of neural networks and the recent advancements in hardware and software that have made AI possible. They explore the concept of machine intelligence, comparing it to human and animal intelligence, and discuss the psychological and philosophical challenges that arise as AI becomes more integrated into daily life. The conversation emphasizes the importance of understanding AI's role in the broader context of technological progress.

10:03

📊 AI in Business Intelligence and Data Analytics

This paragraph focuses on the application of AI in business intelligence and data analytics, specifically within the context of ThoughtSpot's mission and UX strategy. The discussion highlights the challenges of making data analytics accessible to non-technical users and how AI is being used to simplify the process. The integration of AI allows users to ask natural language questions and receive relevant data insights without needing to understand complex data models or SQL queries. The conversation underscores the value of encouraging exploration, rewarding curiosity, and reducing complexity for users.

15:05

🛠️ Designing for the User: Simplicity vs. Complexity

The conversation here centers on the balance between simplifying user experience and managing the inherent complexity of software. The speakers discuss the importance of designing software that serves users rather than complicating their tasks. They reflect on the challenges faced by enterprise software users and the potential for designers to improve their quality of life by reducing friction in software interactions. The discussion also touches on the cultural aspects of companies like Apple that successfully manage large-scale projects and the impact of such projects on the industry.

20:05

🌟 Learning from History: Big Projects and Human Cooperation

In this part of the conversation, the speakers express their fascination with large-scale human projects throughout history, such as the Apollo moon landings, and the importance of learning from these endeavors. They discuss the need to understand and apply the lessons from these historical projects to current and future challenges in technology and design. The speakers emphasize the value of studying the processes, cultures, and mindsets that lead to successful outcomes in complex projects, and how these insights can inform better design practices and cooperation at scale.

Keywords

💡AI

Artificial Intelligence (AI) refers to the simulation of human intelligence in machines that are programmed to think and learn like humans. In the context of the video, AI is discussed as a transformative technology that is being integrated into various applications, such as chatbots and data analytics, to improve efficiency and user experience. The guest, Bob Baxley, shares his experiences with AI tools like chat GPT and how they can quickly process and analyze information, highlighting the potential of AI to revolutionize industries.

💡Chat GPT

Chat GPT is an AI language model that is capable of generating human-like text based on the input it receives. It is used in various applications, including chatbots and content creation, to provide engaging and interactive experiences. In the video, Bob Baxley mentions using Chat GPT to identify themes in his tweets and compare them to philosophical concepts, demonstrating the tool's ability to understand and process complex information.

💡Data Analytics

Data analytics is the process of examining data sets to draw conclusions about the information they contain. This involves the use of statistical tools, data mining, and machine learning to extract insights and knowledge from data. In the video, the discussion around data analytics relates to the capabilities of AI in handling large data sets and providing meaningful insights, as exemplified by the work at ThoughtSpot, where AI is used to simplify the data querying process for business users.

💡UX Design

User Experience (UX) design focuses on creating products and software applications that provide a seamless and enjoyable experience for the end-user. It involves understanding user needs, behaviors, and preferences to design interfaces and interactions that are intuitive and satisfying. In the video, UX design is a central theme as Bob Baxley, a design expert, discusses the challenges and strategies in creating user-friendly products, particularly in making data analytics accessible to a broader audience.

💡Enterprise Software

Enterprise software refers to software solutions that are designed to meet the needs of businesses, often handling complex processes and large amounts of data. These software solutions are typically used by multiple users within an organization and are designed to streamline operations, improve productivity, and support decision-making. In the video, enterprise software is discussed in the context of usability and the impact it has on the quality of life of its users, with Bob Baxley emphasizing the importance of designing enterprise tools that are easy to use and do not cause frustration.

💡Philosophy of AI

The philosophy of AI deals with the theoretical and ethical implications of artificial intelligence, exploring questions about the nature of intelligence, the potential consciousness of machines, and the impact of AI on society and human identity. In the video, the discussion of the philosophy of AI arises from Bob Baxley's reflections on the capabilities of AI and its potential to change the way we understand computing and human intelligence.

💡History and Design

History and design are intertwined as the study of historical design patterns, trends, and breakthroughs can inform and inspire contemporary design practices. Understanding the historical context of design decisions and technological advancements can lead to a more profound appreciation of design as a discipline and its evolution over time. In the video, the importance of learning from history in design is emphasized, with Bob Baxley advocating for designers to understand the historical roots of their field to avoid repeating past mistakes and to draw from the wisdom of the past.

💡Innovation

Innovation refers to the process of introducing new ideas, methods, or products to improve upon existing ones or to create something entirely new. It often involves a breakthrough in thinking or technology that leads to significant changes in industries or societies. In the video, innovation is a recurring theme as it discusses the transformative potential of AI and the importance of studying successful innovative projects, like the Apollo missions and the creation of Disneyland, to learn how to drive progress.

💡Transformation

Transformation refers to a profound and lasting change that affects the form, structure, or appearance of something. In the context of technology and AI, transformation often implies the shift in how tasks are performed, industries operate, or societies function due to the introduction of advanced tools and systems. The video discusses the transformative impact of AI on various aspects of life, including work processes and user experiences.

💡User Experience Strategy

User Experience (UX) strategy involves the planning and design of user interactions with a product or service to achieve specific goals, such as improving satisfaction, increasing efficiency, or fostering engagement. It encompasses user research, design principles, and usability testing to create a cohesive and effective experience for the end-user. In the video, UX strategy is discussed as a critical component of ThoughtSpot's mission to make data analytics accessible and intuitive for business users, with a focus on encouraging exploration and rewarding curiosity.

Highlights

Discussion on the future of AI and its applications with Bob Baxley, SV of design at ThoughtSpot, who has experience from Apple, Pinterest, and Yahoo.

Bob's exploration with chatbots like GPT and Claude, and their ability to assist in travel planning and content creation.

The impressive speed at which AI can identify themes in a large dataset of tweets and compare them to philosophical themes.

The impact of AI on the legal profession and how attorneys perceive the technology.

The concept of 'eating Tech' and how it influences the perception of technology in our daily lives.

The importance of being aware of the technological landscape, such as point-of-sale systems and self-checkouts.

The mainstream breakthrough of AI technologies like chatbots and the potential for transformative use cases.

The philosophical implications of AI and machine intelligence, and how it challenges our understanding of human intelligence.

The historical context of AI and neural networks, and how recent advancements are due to hardware and software capabilities.

The role of AI in data analytics and business intelligence tools, and how it simplifies the process for non-technical users.

ThoughtSpot's mission to create a more fact-driven world and its focus on user experience and design.

The challenge of designing enterprise software that serves users effectively and reduces friction in their daily tasks.

The importance of connecting with history and learning from past experiences in design and technology.

The impact of AI on the future of work, particularly in the field of design and user experience.

The need for a mindset shift towards embracing change and continuous learning in the face of technological advancements.

The significance of observing 'normal people' using software to gain insights into user experience and design improvements.

The potential for enterprise software to greatly improve the quality of life for users if designed thoughtfully.

Reflections on the Apollo moon landings as a monumental human achievement and its relevance to large-scale projects today.

The importance of studying successful large-scale projects like Apollo, Disney, and Apple to understand the culture and processes behind them.

Transcripts

[Music]

what's AI going to do next I talked to

Bob Baxley SV of design at thoughts spot

with experience from Apple Pinterest and

Yahoo about that very question my name

is Andrew Hogan head of insights at

figma and this is big Brew big Brew is

something that we were doing inside of

figma to raise our level of awareness

about what's happening in the industry

and we thought we should share it all

with you hope you

enjoy Bob welcome to Fig Brew Andrew

thanks for having me excited to be here

amazing to talk with you uh I know

you've been at Apple Pinterest Yahoo

you're now at thoughts spot but to be

honest the only thing people care about

is AI so I want you to tell me what's

the last thing you did with AI really I

thought all they cared about this

weekend was the Apple Vision Pro but

yeah so we're still talking AI now

they're going to have ai ai look guys

I'm I'm playing around with chat GPT and

and Claude and other stuff as well

playing around with mid Journey uh and

Dolly I personally I've uh I've used it

a little bit for travel planning I have

uh a lot of different U little things

that I post on LinkedIn and I'm trying

to build a website around those so I

have like 600 of these different little

basically tweets and one of the one of

the interesting things I did is I gave

that list of 400 of these tweets to chat

GPT and I said can you tell me the 13

themes that are captured in these things

and of course it did did that in like I

don't know 10 seconds which is

absolutely mindboggling and then I'm

it's sort of self-help type content so

then I was like can you take that list

of 13 themes and compare it to the 13

themes of the stoic philosophers and

then it could do that and then okay now

slice it against montain and it could do

that and then my head kind of explodes

because you start to realize what the

heck is actually going on uh and one one

of the things I tell people about the AI

is my my wife used to be an attorney and

we have dinner parties or over attorney

friends and they're sort of naturally

skeptical people that's what makes them

attorneys and I'll start talking about

Ai and they kind of bring that

skepticism and I'll try out my phone

I'll go well let's just try question and

they'll say something like you know

let's imagine we're doing travel

planning I'm like okay two we vacation

in France 60 year-old couple interested

in music movies and food or something

you know and then it like kicks out a

day day by day almost hour by hour

itinerary in like I don't know 20

seconds and then somebody at the table

go yeah but that's not exactly the thing

I would do I don't think I would do that

on day to to which I have to go could we

just stop here for a minute and think

about what's happened here it is

absolutely mindboggling because you

could have put in anything and this

system's going to respond to you Bob you

said the phrase you know eating Tech

like what what does that mean and how

how do you think that changes people's

perception of these things I I mean it's

just what part of the economy and the

happening in the world you're paying

attention to right and like people like

you and me and a lot of my neighbors

here in Silicon Valley like we just

think Tech all the time it's the

centerpiece of our life like we live for

it we're not just looking at computers

to find the content we're looking at

computers cuz we're thinking about

Computing all the time we're noticing

all these things in the landscape I

talked to Young designers about this all

the time are are you paying attention to

the point of s system at the gas station

are you are you deconstructing the

conceptual model of what it means to buy

gasoline at the pump when you're looking

at self checkout and it's treating you

like a criminal are you noticing that

the fragmentation between all the

different vendors that came to play to

make that thing work like isn't it clear

to you that the point of sale piece

where they're taking your credit card is

completely bolted on to this other

system and that there's like friction in

that fragmentation and that's resulting

in like a really poor user experience I

mean I could go on and on there's like

software in every corner of your life uh

and most most you know mere mortals as I

call them like normal people who don't

eat Tech all the time you know they're

just moving through life and kind of

being forced to use all that stuff and

they're not really it's just become sort

of the ambient of Modern Life and those

of us in the industry I think you kind

of look at it in a different way the

data would say that like you know chat

GPT and Dolly like the mid Journey all

of those things have actually broken out

of the world of people who eat Tech I

can't believe I repeating that and we

were going to maybe make an but but but

you know like they've broken out of that

world and it's surprising to the extent

that that's happened I think yeah luk I

think there's there's we're moving out

of like the just the pure early adopter

stuff um and I haven't seen the usage

figures for those things I mean clearly

these systems are going to be transform

transformative I still just don't think

the common person on the street has a

good conceptual model of what they could

use this thing for and so right now

there is a lot of party tricks you know

and we could all name the same things

you know travel planning and I guess

asking questions about the Romans or

something you know I've never done that

one summarizing you know summarizing

papers or you know whatever like there's

a handful of use cases that people kind

of understand it's a difficult

conceptual model it's very very

different from how we've thought about

Computing in the past like radically

different it's a completely different

approach to Computing it's a me I was

going to say you know one of the things

that's I found most interesting about

the stuff with AI over the last year is

it's gotten me plugged back into the

philosophy around AI because the kinds

of systems we have now the neural

network stuff has been theorized since

the 1950s we just haven't had the

computing power and the storage to be

able to pull it off so you know what we

what you have with chat GPT is not not

really so much understanding it's not

really so much a breakthrough from a

computer science point of view it's a

breakthrough in that we finally have the

hardware and the software systems to

pull it off and so there's like 50 years

of people writing about what is what is

machine intelligence going to mean and

it's uh it's got me reading some really

interesting books but around this time

last year I read a book called God human

animal machine which is kind of about

the nature of intelligence and you know

we used to just think it was only God

that was intelligent and then that kind

of spanned to humans are intelligent now

we think about animal intelligence and

now we're wrestling with the question of

machine intelligence and and what does

that mean that was a very fascinating

kind of philosophical book and then I

followed that with another one called

other Minds which is about um octopuses

and and Squids and seapods and kind of

their their kind of intelligence and the

the theory of that book is if you go

back to if you go back 500 million years

ago humans in octopuses shared this

common ancestor called this flat worm

where the flat worm's clearly not

intelligent fast forward 500 million

years you got human beings like to think

we're intelligent you got octopus is

clearly intelligent Nature has has

created intelligence two at least two

times and radically different ways what

does that really mean like how do we

think about human intelligence you know

I think that's to me that's like the

really fascinating philosophical

question that we're facing now when

you're looking at Ai and what it can do

and it's I think that I think that that

that tension underg guards a lot of

people's initial sense of skepticism and

I think there's just kind of an anxiety

and fear about like what mean like the

idea that a machine could be intelligent

and that it could give answers in the

way that a human would it could create

answers that kind of thing I mean it

could replace me it could do a lot of

the things that I do and and when you go

back and you look at like the anxiety uh

around deep blue when it when when it

beat Gary Casper off at at chess like

that was a very pivotal moment you go

watch the alpha go documentary on

YouTube about when Alpha go want it

wanted the game against go and like the

the guy that was playing His Name

Escapes Me The Dan from I think he was

from in Japan he was rushed like like he

left at one point he like goes he like

leaves the the the the place the where

the game was taking place leaves the

room and goes outside and and he is like

stressed so there's a completely new

method of computing and thinking and

interacting your response to that as a

person who eats Tech is to go read about

philosophy and sort of go back to

history and then sort of you have this

this belief that like it's going to do a

lot of the things that you do today like

how do you feel about that I don't know

man I'm feeling it out you know I'm

trying not to be anxious and freaked out

about it but you know change is change

is coming and a lot of the things that

I've thought were important for me to be

able to do and I could uniquely do in my

job I don't know if that's actually

going to end up being the case or not

yeah there's an interesting challenge

like I think it makes you confront what

does it mean to be human and uh what is

my value as a human outside my ability

to be able to execute you know certains

of these tasks asks um and I think

that's a that's a real meaty

psychological and liberal arts problem

to deal with yeah which is part of why

you know I assume you're going back to

the history and you you know mentioned

the stoics earlier and you know that

that yeah I'm always drawn to that sort

of stuff I mean you know part of it's

it's just how I'm tuned I studied

history in college along with film and

I've just sort of always been tuned to

like what if what's happened in the past

those are amazing Stories and how did

people learn from them you see some of

the Apollo stuff kind of over there in

the back background personally I find

connecting to the past to be very

rewarding and grounding and I think it's

one of the challenges when I talk to

younger designers I think it's one of

the things that I try to council them on

is a lot of lot of folks today don't

realize that there's like you know

history design goes back at least a

century and if not more and many of the

problems that we're dealing with today

about how to explain the value of design

how to think about design the design

process the psychology the designer

mindset all those things people have

been writing and thinking about that

stuff for decades and decades like we're

not the first folks to figure this out

and why we like to think that we're

unique and it's this unique historical

moment that's um that's this concept

called Chrono centricity and Chronos

centricity is the belief that everything

interesting happened in your own

lifetime I think the problem with that

is it ends up being super isolating

because you end up feeling like you have

to uniquely figure out these problems

and there's nobody to learn from and no

Community to connect to whereas you know

by connecting to historical graphic

designers or the Arts and Crafts

movement or going back to some of the

early Tech Pioneers like vver Bush or

Doug engelbart or Stuart brand you

realize oh I'm I'm actually part of this

community of this you know human

exploration that expands out over time

and uh at least in my case you know it

keeps me from feeling so isolated and

alone when I'm confronting some of the

challenges of being a designer in the

modern world excellent advice you gave

some names maybe we'll give people a few

links that they can follow um or some

some other um but it is it's it's

striking when I talk to you how much uh

history comes up how much like patterns

that have repeated themselves come up um

and I have to imagine you're drawing on

that you know with the work today

because you also mentioned these devices

this technology um could replace some of

the things you do today but you are

actively also designing things that are

helpful in augmenting people's work and

so you've been thinking about how to

apply it and how to think about it in

the context of uh data engineer the AI I

um engineer the sort of the folks using

thoughtspot yeah so thought spot's a

business intelligence tool right so we

do data analytics basically charts and

graphs for big gigantic data sets uh we

compete with the likes of Tableau

powerbi and many many other uh companies

the vision of thoughts spot that the

founders set forth when they founded the

company was a more fact-driven world

right so we wanted that the change they

wanted to see in the world was a world

where decisions were based more on fact

than just opinions and intuition and so

from that you get the mission of trying

to get the thoughts spot product into

the hands of millions of users and from

that then we get a ux strategy that we

refer to is encourage exploration and

reward curiosity and then that leads to

a handful of tenants of how we think

about the design of the product now

what's unique about our product is we're

trying to get data analytics into the

hands of business users the challenge

for that is that in order to use our

tool or any others like most of our

competitors tblo and powerbi again

examples you would have to go get

specialized training those are

professional tools you know they're sort

of the bi equivalent of Photoshop like

you're not just going to get in those

tools and figure stuff out like you're

going to have to get some training but

the goal of thought spot is to just put

data analytics into the hands of normal

folks which means we need to have a tool

that you can just sit down at and make

sense of you know which is why I went

there because that's ultimately a very

big and interesting ux design challenge

that I think we've done a really great

job of we're broadly recognized as

having the best UI in the in the space

and people buy the product because of

the design and because of the usability

but there's still a fundamental

challenge which is for a business user

to sit and use our tool they have to

understand or they historically they've

had to understand their company's

underlying data model they had to know

what particular columns were called Etc

now we have a simplified version of of

SQL that allows them to be able to

create uh much less uh structured

queries than they would have to do in a

in a traditional language like SQL but

they still kind of had to have the

vocabulary of the data model what we've

been able to do with AI over the last

year is we've been able to use chat GPT

to go between how somebody might ask a

natural language question and then map

that into the company's data model so

somebody can say What Would by sales in

North America and physical you know 2022

uh by region and there's actually a

whole bunch of different column names in

there that could that there's different

ways companies refer to to sales

different ways to refer to region Etc

and in the past you would have had to

know exactly what those column names

were with our AI integration you can ask

that a very natural way and we can go

off and interpolate that so we we're

using AI almost like a trans translation

service where somebody can ask something

in English and we're able to convert

that over into their kind of internal

data model language to then bring back

the chart and the results that they're

looking for and really aligned with the

the mission of you know curiosity and

exploration and it's very punishing when

you write code that doesn't work and so

getting something back is better than

getting nothing back for sure yeah so so

if you go back to again our our strategy

of encourage exploration and reward

curiosity like one of the one of our 10

is nobody wants to learn the product

know and and that means nobody wants to

ever be stuck and have to read a manual

it also means they don't want to hit an

error right and in in in coding

environments and you know most of our

competitors again there's just lots of

ways that you can dig yourself into a

hole and not know what to do next and

our goal is to create a feeling where

you can just stay and explore the data

you know hopefully you kind of find fall

down a rabbit hole you know our our our

conceptually I'd love to see our product

kind of be like the Wikipedia of your

data model and in my you know I imagine

users sitting there kind of Surfing the

data of their company in probably kind

of an undirected just humanly curious

way I just want to wander the data and

see what I can find you know that

requires a lot of sophisticated

technology because these data models are

hard to navigate and complicated and

technically specific so just be able to

click on things and have it constantly

bringing you back results and results

that are valid and accurate and

everything else and that you can

understand like I mean in many ways

that's been tech for 50 years right like

moving from Main frames to personal

computers to from command lines to goys

to you're essentially following a very

similar kind of path and you've put an

AI translation layer as sort of the next

stage the next part of the evolution

there yeah you know I sort of uh I have

this thing where I say you know every

problem has you know it's its fixed

units of complexity and the question is

is it going to be the system that's

going to suck up the complexity or the

humans and most companies are trying to

find where they want to be on that scale

you know in companies like apple they

they put a lot more emphasis in the

system the system being the thing that's

going to take care of the complexity and

much less complexity for the users and

we're trying to move that needle in our

very technical space as well you know

and then look that's our strategy and I

think it's the right strategy it's a

great strategy there is another strategy

that says no no no like you know you

have to know your stuff like it's we're

going to give you technical powers and

there's going to be like a really robust

set of things you can do but you're

going to have to learn how to operate

the system and that's yeah it's also a

valid approach again just not the one

that's consistent with our business

model and how we think about the space I

sort of you know the comparison I use is

like Photoshop to canva you know there's

space for both not everybody that needs

to produce assets wants to learn

everything you have to learn to be able

to use these other projects some people

just want simpler stuff well and it also

I know it's personally pretty aligned

with your your philosophy too of uh your

personal philosophy of you know making

things simpler for the user and making

things more approachable and I just see

I see a lot of align here it feel like

you you've helped shape that yeah look

whenever I get a chance to to talk to

other folks or to have a moment on stage

one of the things I try to do is take

the audience which is generally

designers back to like why we do what we

do you know and being a designer is it's

a tough thing you know I think people

get into it pretty optimistic and maybe

a little naive about what it's going to

be like but the stakes are really high

in software there's a lot of money to be

made there's a lot of attention to be

guarded from different companies and so

the stakes are high that means it's a

difficult field where a create a

professional to survive in but I try to

remind people that there actually are

folks on the other side of the glass and

it's weird cuz in software we don't see

the people on the other side of the

glass it's a unattributed medium they

don't see us they don't know who we are

um and we never get to see them been

fortunate to work on products that have

been used by over a billion people I've

never seen anyone use anything I've

designed in the wild in real time just

happening right like which never never

never I've never stumbled in somebody

using the apple on onl store oh stum

okay so so but you I mean you've watched

people yeah I've watched people but it's

always organized right I mean so organic

organically you've never okay that makes

sense yeah so like my audience is

relatively unknown to me and hard to get

to and there's no other medium like this

I mean a film director even though

they're abstracted from Their audience

they can always go to the movie theater

and watch people watching the movie and

they can always watch people watching

another movie A musicians get to perform

in front of an audience so they get to

build that rapport with the audience

artists can go to their opening they get

to build a report With Their audience

but designers like we don't have any

rapport with our audience you know even

though our audience is massive and so

one of the again one of the things I try

to always remind designers is you got to

think about the folks on the other side

of the glass because that's why we're

all drawn to do this thing my sense is

that uh when I when I use computers and

they work right um it is just absolutely

magic to me you heard my enthusiasm

earlier about using chat PT it is

mind-bogglingly cool to me in a really

fundamental way it's like looking up at

the stars or something you know there's

something profoundly unknowable about

what happens inside this little metal

box on my desk that's making this moment

possible it's absolutely mindboggling

what's actually happening with us right

now from a technical point of view um

and a personal point of view but you

know it's um mostly technical but a lot

of times it goes wrong right and and we

all have to use crappy software that we

don't like like self checkout right that

treats you like a criminal which it's

always a but then sometimes you get the

one that's really well done yeah and and

then it's magic it's magical yeah and so

I go you know I look around the built

environments you know and I think about

the built virtual environment and I

think a lot of mere mortals people that

don't eat Tech you know spend a lot of

time probably feeling kind of victimized

by it like it doesn't quite work they

don't really know who to blame there's

like these faceless bureaucracies that

we call Facebook and Google and Amazon

and apple that are pushing all this

stuff on them and that change stuff

behind their back and you you know

that's not even counting for all the

Enterprise tools they have to use and I

just suspect a lot of them feel awfully

frustrated and again kind of victimized

honestly it kind of breaks my heart

because I think using computers and

using software is one of the Miracles of

Modern Life right up there with jet

travel you know and fresh sushi or

something you know and so so when it

doesn't go right I just I I don't know

it just it it really troubles me kind of

at a deep moral level uh because I feel

that whoever created that system just

couldn't find it themselves to spend the

extra time to care about the people on

the other side of the glass of which

there are millions describe this sort of

like you know going back in history to

sort of think about this moment um and

to think about uh the impact that AI

might have and how you should deal with

it you've talked about using um thought

spot as a way to sort of like you know

help other people work more successfully

and you kind of like I know this is part

of your your core like Mission how you

want things you want the world to sort

of be designed better you want software

to work better for people and I you want

people to be able to do that work

successfully but you also just described

you were a little worried about the

impact that AI might have on the work

that you do and the skills that you need

I imagine lots of other people would

also be worried about that and thinking

about you're designing a certain way

today you're designing AI features today

in a certain way um how might it work in

the future and then like what skills uh

would you tell people to have so they

could sort of keep with this same

mission of how do I you know make

software work better for people what do

you what do you think they should be

sort of like trying to learn or do

obviously we live in an era of profound

change you know and I think we will see

more change in our lifetime than any

generation in history um although we may

not recognize it as much because we're

so used to the change humans aren't

really no animals really well set up for

the amount of change that we're dealing

with right now so what I think about the

things you need to learn it's a lot of

it's probably around just your mindset

you know like how are you how are you

managing the change are you getting

attached to certain things that are

going to be shifted out from underneath

you you know I I focus a lot personally

uh on what I call Baseline thinking

which is to make my judgments today

based on how the situation used to be in

the past um and you see people do that

you know where they drive around around

their Hometown and they kind of go oh I

remember when that was a field right and

they kind of get nostalgic and a little

bit down that that used to be a field

and now it's a parking lot or something

and I think that's a sign of somebody

that's not really keeping up um and if

you can't keep up and just kind of go

with the flow of what's happening around

you you're going to get really

frustrated and unhappy really quickly

and so I think as a mindset skill just

being comfortable with change and not

getting too attached and not believing

that you know what's going to happen I

think those are all just again kind of

really important mindset skills that I

focus on quite a bit through journaling

and other practices so I think that's

kind of on the maybe the soft skill side

more on the hard skill side I mean I

don't know if I have any great advice

there watching normal people use

software I think is incredibly valuable

and something I don't see many folks

doing anymore I was never a huge fan of

traditional usability testing because I

often found it to be wildly inconclusive

and have some other challeng but there

was something profound about watching

mere mortals actually use software and

with a lot of things now moving to

metrics based decisionmaking instead of

like watching real users I think we've

lost something important like we've

gotten again kind of really abstracted

and removed from our audience and

whatever they do on server logs does not

tell you what's happening at the human

level and so I I wish there was a way

where designers could get more connected

to to just watching how people use

software and in my own life much you

know kind of much to my annoyance when

we're you know when we're at a dinner

party I often ask the other people

around me if I could look at their phone

cuz I'm just trying to figure out like

which apps they use and if there's

something I don't recognize I'll ask

them about that you know when my kids

were in high school and they'd have a

friend over I would actually proactively

try to watch their friends using

Snapchat and other things because I just

wanted to understand how people are

navigating that stuff when we travel at

Disneyland I talk to the employees all

the time about what the back of house

systems look like you know and how they

know when to punch in and punch out and

what shift they're on when you're at the

airport you know if the next time you go

to the airport if you if you go up to

the the ticket counter and you ask to

change seats they're going to type for

like five minutes you know try to I mean

you know just stop and ask them like

what are you doing you know like because

you because they're on this like really

dos-based kind of system how you ask

them what are you doing maybe a little

yeah no but you can ask them you can

just be curious you know you can look

over I mean every time I'm in a

restaurant I ask the the the the service

staff what they think of toast or Clover

whatever they're using you know I kind

of lean over the system that's the

really I feel like there is something

too like we have now been more exposed

to the the things that they were using

on the other side with self-checkout and

you know with you get this little

Glimpse and it it is it is alarming

because that is the easier to use

version than what than what they get um

and we've all experienced you click one

button to change seats on an airline

website or in an app yeah they do not

click one button there's clearly more

happening over there no no well I asked

them one time what was going on and they

what they told me is that they were

chatting with other agents on the line

where they were trying to move multiple

passengers to request to accommodate

your request and so there's people that

they had been Auto assigned into seats

and they were trying to figure out if

they could move them to accommodate what

your request was since You' made a

request and so it wasn't like what was

actually happening with all those

keystrokes is not what you thought was

happening to your point like one of the

reasons that I enjoy working at

Enterprise software is because to me

that's a place where you can have kind

of the greatest impact on the quality of

somebody's life because the people that

use Enterprise software the users are

rarely the customers typically somebody

using enterprise software including our

own you know that's dictated from the

CIO or somebody somebody else made that

purchasing decision and this tool just

arrives and they have to use it those

tools often aren't very thoughtfully

designed like the quality of the UI is

not often part of the the purchase

consideration and I think those people

just feel end up feeling really

victimized you know and they get bummed

with their employer like why did you

give us these crappy tools and this

thing's not working and so I think

enterprise software is an interesting

place for designers to put their energy

cuz for what it's like super easy to

move the needle um and you can have a

tremendous impact on the quality

people's lives cuz if there's a little

bit of friction in Enterprise software

product and you can get rid of it you've

taken that friction out of somebody's

life a dozen times a day cuz they're in

those systems over and over and over

again and they don't have the freedom to

switch to something else so I it's an

easy do you think it's getting better

you and I have talked about this for the

past couple years and I actually I'm

curious like do you do you have a that

it's improving I don't know if it's

improving and then probably more

importantly I don't know if I am

metaphysically capable of being a good

judge of that you know like I think my

designer mindset is always trying to

like every cell in my body is constantly

asking how can this be better so it's

not like I have some perspective that

it's gotten better I'm just constantly

trying to figure out how to make it

better so I'm not a good judge in that

way I suppose a different response I

might have is it yeah I think software's

maybe become a little bit easier to use

but we've also added more and more

capability so I think we've sort of

undermined any progress we've made in

usability by just stuffing more and more

features into these products features

are that's an easy thing for people to

build that seems like the obvious thing

to build it seems like oh I should just

can't of do this and do this and do this

and do this and there's there's very few

companies that are willing to say no no

it's going to do this set of things but

it's going to do them really well and

that's going to be incredibly valuable

minimalism is not something that's

appreciated in in tech for whatever

reason like it's not consumers buy for

either you know it's like I mean I was

going to say the Enterprise in the

Enterprise World especially you know

you're up against a feature checklist we

have all these things and they don't

have these things and then that

incentivizes it and we haven't even

gotten to the number of products that

companies use which I think has probably

only increased over the last couple

years oh yeah so it's possible that you

know individual workflows for some

things have improved greatly and then on

the whole it's tough to tell yeah I

remember when I onboarded and thought

spot uh just the number I I I you the

number of pieces of software that I was

just assumed to know and to have to make

sense of and to use just right out the

gate and I you know I did know most of

them but there was like two dozen

different pieces of software that you're

just to be a modern knowledge worker

that you're just expected to know right

off the bat that's an incredible tax you

know but those things also make other

people's lives better usually like

there's there's probably some you know

some piece ofof software that's really

helpful for the accounting department

one piece of software that's really

helpful for someone different in the

accounting department and then there's

you know a procurement thing and then

there's a uh HR software and then

there's and so I you know it is it is a

tricky balance of like how do you think

about all these different workflows and

the different pieces of software try to

stitch it together in some like you know

easy way yeah absolutely see where you

could move the needle but I also see how

it's pretty tough

what you just described as a reason I'm

still doing software design you know 33

years on and I have to admit you know I

often feel that I'm kind of it's rightly

it's kind of a losing battle at times

but you know it's a battle worth having

because we shouldn't be victimized by

our tools like these tools are here to

serve us maybe we don't know how to make

sense of AI or but the idea that it's

threatening to us tells me something

that's kind of gone ay all these tools

should be making our lives as humans

better and not that many of them are

it's a that's a real loss to humanity

it's a it's a yeah I don't know it's

it's I hate to kind of put it in these

moral terms but you know well but you

you see an opportunity and I think that

is the that's one of the one of the

other things I wanted to ask you about

is you have this you have this interest

in big projects that humans countries

you know

peoples uh have tackled throughout

history um and what you just described

as a you know it's a big project how are

we going to you know make this soft

software make sure the software is

working for us how we all going to work

together to do that tell me about this

big project I don't know what to call it

like it's not quite an obsession um and

you know oh why why I've drawn to Big

projects yeah and what are the big

projects that you think about yeah so I

think the first one was the Apollo

missions the Apollo moon landings you

know and uh I was born in 1963 oddly I

should have been more interested in it

when they landed in 1969 but it's just

not kind of the the MEO of the family I

grew up in so I kind of remember

watching it but not really but I got

into it in my 20s when I think there was

there was one night I just looked up at

the full moon and I think it just hit me

we'd gone to the moon like six people

walked on the surface of the Moon they

camped out you know I'm sorry 12 people

had walked on the surface of the Moon we

had we had six different campouts you

know on the surface of the Moon and when

you look at it in the night sky and you

really conceptualize that it's just

absolutely mindboggling like the

audacity of it and that we did it like

six times between July 1969 and I think

it was January 1972 like it's 50 years

ago you know it's over 50 years ago that

jeene cernon and Harrison Schmidt left

left the surface of the Moon for Apollo

7 or you know exited the moon on Apollo

17 and their Footprints are still up

there the computers that they landed

with are still up there the core rope

memory that had all the all the software

that ran the The Landing computer for

the the lunar module it's still up there

if you could recover it you could run

the code again you know it's just

mindboggling and so I think that led me

a fascination with the Apollo program

and I've done a lot of talks about this

and Leadership Lessons From the Apollo

program and how that applies to other

things and it's taken me a while to

figure out that what's really

fascinating because I do deeply believe

that you know the future of our survival

and happiness as a species is our

ability to cooperate at scale on these

large scale projects and I'm a big

believer in studying in doing case

studies you know so instead of doing

theoretical ideas of what a design

process is it's like well let's just

look at an example that we you know

let's look at a product that we all

admire and then figure out how they made

it and use that as a case study for how

we might want to make our product and so

when I look at Apollo I just sort of try

to deconstruct it and use it as a case

study of how human beings accomplished a

you know what was arguably a peacetime

goal it was at least even if it was you

know Act of the Cold War at least it was

a nonviolent Act of the Cold War and to

get the country to commit that amount of

time that amount of money that amount of

risk you know for a solid programs

announced at at Rice University in 1961

I believe we land in 196 9 last mission

against 1972 like being able to sustain

this country's attention a decade for a

decade yeah yeah um yeah so I've got a

talk where I deconstruct the Kennedy

speech because it you know people talk

about a moonshot I'm like well there's

only been one moonshot and that's the

one that landed on the moon because the

moon shot's kind of got to go to the

Moon you know if you go and listen to

that Rice speech which I encourage

everybody to do it clocks in at 18

minutes it is the consumate Ted Talk it

is the Ted Talk of all time go and

listen to it look at how Kennedy sells

the vision of going to the moon and why

we're going to go to the moon and why it

matters and how much that changes

people's minds and how compelling it is

and then especially watch him after he

finishes the speech because it turns out

he's he's fairly short and when he goes

back to the to the seats he's surrounded

by these gigantic guys and he sits there

and he's kind of got this interesting

look on his face I don't think he was

really expecting that response and like

he really expected it to go that well I

don't know just looking at the video

kind of like wow he's seems pretty proud

of the moment and he seems to have some

sense of like what's happened it's just

I I find that speech just super

compelling both to watch the video and

to like read the The Narrative itself uh

again to deconstruct it so he's saying

we need a moonshot for enterprise

software I'm just kidding no I'm saying

yeah I'm just saying there's learnings

from the Apollo prog there's learnings

from how Walt sold Disneyland you know

Disneyland's a big massive project they

went you know they it within one

calendar or within one year they went

from getting the bank loans you know

based on a on a drawing that him and a

Disney animator did at his house over

the weekend a drawing of the park they

got a bank loan against that and they

open the park with Ronald Reagan as the

Master of Ceremonies on TV 12 months

later like in a year like how the hell

do you do that you know like you're

talking about an MVP and like time to

Market like they built Disneyland in a

year and they got Ronald Reagan and like

everybody imaginable to like come to the

opening it's phenomenal and and there's

just not that many examples of humans

pulling off large scale projects like

that when I think about software like

building enterprise software is a large

scale project how do you how do you

Galvanize and motivate a huge group of

people Apple's the only company I see

doing that in a reliable way at scale

like if you look I mentioned earlier the

Apple Vision Pro and people can look at

the product and they can deconstruct the

product I would suggest that you look at

the company that produced it and you ask

yourself what kind of culture produces a

product like that that they were working

on for I think eight years they were

able to stain sustain that Vision none

of it leaked none of it leaked before

the announcement yet probably hundreds

of people worked on that product and all

the different specializations and

Explorations all the things that had to

go into creating that product that

people are reporting as you know kind of

mindblowing and in some cases maybe

life-changing although it seems a little

hyperbolic but you whe whether you're a

believer in The Vision Pro or not

nobody's every everybody's saying it's

one of it's the most incredible consumer

electronics product ever conceived ever

and like what kind of culture pulls that

off like what's the mechanics of a

culture that makes that possible well

and there's a series of them right

because it it would be one thing if it

was you know just the iPhone but it's

also the watch it's also the iPad it's

also the Mac yeah the Mac I mean yeah

clearly Steve you know and Steve talked

about that the various points in his

life like the thing that he had created

that he was most proud of was Apple you

know and that's the culture to go study

like what's that what's the machine that

makes Apple function and that's apart

from the products and what they actually

produced it's like what is what is the

culture and that's that's how I look at

the Apollo program that's how I look at

Disney that's how I look at Pixar you

know there's there's only a handful of

companies that can operate at that way

but those are the those are the

companies I think we should be studying

from again from a case study point of

view instead of trying to deconstruct

some of these products you say what was

the culture and the processes and the

mindsets that ended up yielding these

products that we all admire so much the

fast with big projects has always made

sense to me I wanted to make sure other

people heard about it and I um it's such

an interesting combination of you know

history we were in a moment then and

what can we pull from that what sorts of

things can we think about um and you

know broadly applicable you you make

people you know if you if you want

people to cross an ocean you don't like

you know teach him to sail you teach him

to yearn for the sea right isn't I love

always love hearing about that yeah look

I think the trick with with history and

it's true with Apollo is you know with

all this stuff including Apollo is can

you get yourself into a mindset where

you can identify with the participants

when they didn't know the outcome you

know can you sit with James Madison uh

in Philadelphia when he showed up

earlier for early for the Constitutional

Convention and he decides to write a

draft of the Constitution James Madison

didn't know how it was going to turn out

at some point he sits down with paper

and he start start structuring a

constitution that had three branches of

government and all the rest of that

stuff can you can you get back to that

moment where it wasn't clear what was

going to happen can you get yourself

back to the moment where it wasn't clear

they were going to land on the moon you

know they had there was three missions

lined up in 1969 so Apollo 11 12 and 13

were all queued up to land by the end of

1969 because nobody thought they were

going to land Apollo 11 they they in

fact Neil Armstrong the night before the

quote he's at the press conference the

night before and he says we the crew of

Apollo 11 are privileged to represent

Mankind in this our first attempt to

land on the moon and so this this

concept of like their privilege to have

this to be part of this opportunity you

know to our first attempt like the

mindset was maybe this is going to work

and like he's almost out of gas like

he's got I think 11 seconds of fuel left

when he lands and there was a big

boulder where they were supposed to land

like there's there's a lot of stuff

uncertain stuff that happens in that

last 180 you know seconds talk about

those things though to your point it's

actually very difficult to be back in

that moment it's much you get much more

uh sort of accounts and Analysis of like

why it worked and what was anyway yeah

when you see the final score you forget

how tense the game was and I think you

have to go back and put aside the final

score and sort of say no this is what

the participants were dealing with it

wasn't clear and I think that's where my

why I study history and that's kind of

where my comfort comes from because then

you kind of realize oh well like I'm

feeling all that uncertainty in my daily

life too and that's just well that's how

it's always been you know that's what it

means to be in the now I don't know how

the election's going to turn out I don't

know what's going to happen with the

pandemic I don't know what's going to

happen with the weather I don't know

what's going to happen with my job with

the econom like like nobody ever knows

what's going to happen that's how it

always is right and uh if all you ever

think about is the final score you

forget that the game was very much in

doubt Bob thanks for being on fig Brew

always fascinating thank you Mr Hogan

lovely to see you as always thank you

and I can't wait to have you back love

to have you back that would be great

anytime I'm around

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