The Deutsch Files III

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17 Feb 202459:19

Summary

TLDRВ данном видео скрипте обсуждаются вопросы искусственного интеллекта, творчества и свободы воли. Основные аргументы касаются того, что истинная творческая активность не может быть объяснена через наблюдение, индукцию или алгоритмы. Авторы подчеркивают, что понимание и развиток универсального объяснения в области математики, физики, психологии и других наук одинаковы с эпистемологической точки зрения. Обсуждаются также возможные последствия создания искусственного общего интеллекта и его потенциального влияния на общество, включая этические и политические аспекты. В заключение, авторы выражают свое представление об эволюции и ценности человеческого мышления и знаний.

Takeaways

  • 🤖 Развитие искусственного интеллекта (AI) не может быть оценено с помощью традиционных методов, таких как математические доказательства.
  • 🧠 Понимание человеческого разума и его способности к творчеству является сложной задачей, которая пока не имеет окончательного ответа.
  • 🏗️ Творчество не сводится к простым наблюдению или перекомбинованию существующих идей; оно требует глубокого понимания и интуиции.
  • 🌆 Прогресс и инновации человечества, такие как строительство небоскребов, являются результатом творческого мышления, а не случайных процессов.
  • 🧬 Эволюция и изменение в биологии происходит не только через небольшие мутации, но и благодаря вариации и отбору.
  • 🌌 Идея того, что все в мире может быть объяснено с помощью математических или физических принципов, является упрощением.
  • 💡 Творчество и знания могут быть устойчивыми и долговечными, превышая физические ограничения других форм информации.
  • 🧒 Важность воспитания и обучения детей, чтобы они могли развивать свою творческую способность и свободу воли.
  • 📚 Подход к обучению и воспитанию детей должен быть более гибким и не должен ограничиваться принуждением или воспроизведением существующих знаний.
  • 🌐 Возможности и ограничения, связанные с созданием и распространением ИИ и других технологий, могут иметь далеко идущие последствия для общества и культуры.

Q & A

  • Какие трудности возникают при попытке объяснить свою мысль?

    -Объяснение мыслей часто сталкивается с проблемами понимания, особенно когда речь идет о сложных и абстрактных идеях. Люди могут иметь разные представления и знания, что затрудняет процесс общения. Важно находить подходящие слова и примеры, чтобы сделать свою мысль понятной и предотвратить недоразумения.

  • Какое значение имеет творчество для свободы воли?

    -Творчество связано с свободой воли, поскольку оно предполагает возможность создавать что-то новое и уникальное. Если у человека есть место для творчества, у него есть возможность действовать свободно, основываясь на своих идеях и представлениях, а не просто повторять то, что уже существует.

  • Какие примеры творчества можно привести в повседневной жизни?

    -Примеры творчества в повседневной жизни могут включать создание новых рецептов, решение нестандартных проблем на работе, изобретение новых игр или занятий для детей, а также любые другие действия, которые предполагают изобретательность и оригинальность.

  • Почему эволюция не может создать системы, такие как система отражения астероидов?

    -Эволюция работает путем непрерывных мелких изменений, которые постепенно приводят к адаптации организма к изменениям в окружающей среде. Однако, создание системы отражения астероидов требует наличия сложных и непредвидимых изменений, которые не могут быть достигнуты путем постепенного развития. Такие системы не могут быть результатом эволюционного процесса, поскольку они не обеспечивают непосредственную выживаемость организма и не могут быть построены путем непрерывного изменения на генетическом уровне.

  • Какие различия существуют между математикой и другими науками?

    -Различия между математикой и другими науками заключаются в предметной области, которую они изучают. Математика занимается необходимыми истинами и основывается на логических принципах и доказательствах. В то время как другие науки, такие как физика, химия, биология и психология, изучают различные аспекты природы и человеческого опыта, используя эксперименты и наблюдения для формирования теорий и гипотез.

  • Какие примеры из жизни Дэвида Декартera подчеркивают важность творчества?

    -В жизни Дэвида Декартera можно привести примеры, такие как его страсть к изучению и созданию новых идей в области науки и философии, его увлечение музыкой и творчеством в области музыкального искусства, а также его работа над разработкой теории конструкторов, которая может способствовать созданию новых идей и решению сложных проблем.

  • Какие трудности возникают при создании ИИ и какие возможные пути их преодоления?

    -Трудности при создании ИИ включают не только технические проблемы, но и философские, такие как определение самосознания и творчества. Возможные пути преодоления этих трудностей могут включать разработку новых алгоритмов и методов, исследование работы человеческого мозга и его абстрактного мышления, а также создание среды, способствующей творчеству и обучению ИИ.

  • Как важно избегать утверждений о доказанности в науке?

    -В науке важно избегать утверждений о доказанности, поскольку они могут привести к застою и прекращению поиска новых идей и решений. Научные теории и гипотезы должны быть постоянно проверяемыми и открывающими новые возможности для исследования, чтобы продолжать развитие науки и техники.

  • Какие примеры показывают, что творчество не является просто рекомбинацией идей?

    -Примеры, которые показывают, что творчество не является просто рекомбинацией идей, включают создание новых технологий, таких как смартфоны и искусственный интеллект, развитие новых стилей искусства и музыки, а также создание оригинальных теорий и идей в науке, которые отличаются от существующих знаний и представлений.

  • Какова роль знания в обеспечении устойчивости и выживанию?

    -Знание играет ключевую роль в обеспечении устойчивости и выживания, поскольку оно позволяет людям принимать обоснованные решения, адаптироваться к изменениям в окружающей среде и создавать инновационные решения для решения сложных проблем. Знание также может передаваться от поколения к поколению, что обеспечивает долгосрочную устойчивость и прогресс.

  • Как можно стимулировать творчество и свободу мысли у детей?

    -Для стимулирования творчества и свободы мысли у детей необходимо предоставить им доступ к различным знаниям и ресурсам, поощрять их интересы и увлечения, а также создать среду, которая поддерживает эксперименты и нестандартное мышление. Важно также учить детей критическому мышлению и развивать их способность к самообразованию и самовыражению.

Outlines

00:00

🤔 Размышления о творчестве и интеллекте

В этом параграфе рассматриваются вопросы творчества и искусственного интеллекта. Обсуждаются примеры, когда люди пытаются понять и моделить творческий процесс, а также когда алгоритмы создают новые вещи, но не могут повторить то, что сделал Mozart. Рассматривается идея того, что люди могут быть удивительно творческими, и это не связано с наблюдением или рекомбинацией. Автор выражает мнение, что научные открытия и технологические прогрессы могут привести к большему творчеству, но это не будет бесконечным ростом, а скорее увеличением возможностей для творчества.

05:01

🏙️ Творчество и его проявление в архитектуре

Автор приводит пример изменения Манхэттена на протяжении тысячелетий и отмечает, что создание необычных сооружений, таких как небоскребы, не может быть объяснено без творчества. Обсуждаются различия между эволюцией и творчеством, особенно в контексте того, как люди могут делать крупные интеллектуальные прыжки, в то время как биологические изменения происходят поэтапно. Рассматривается также вопрос о том, почему люди могут быть более творческими, чем другие формы жизни, и как это связано с нашей способностью к абстрактному мышлению и объединению идей.

10:03

🌟 Творчество, знание и интеллект

Автор обсуждает, как люди могут моделировать любую систему в своем воображении и создавать новые идеи, которые могут преодолеть разрывы в пространстве знаний. В отличие от биологического эволюционного процесса, наш виртуальный интеллект работает как программируемый компьютер, что позволяет нам совершать творческие скачки. Рассматривается также вопрос о том, что знания могут быть более устойчивыми, чем физические объекты, и как это связано с творчеством.

15:06

🧬 Творчество, генетика и воспитание

Для этого абзаца автор обсуждает различные аргументы против того, чтобы принимать детей всерьез, такие как нежеланием предотвратить необратимые действия, связанные с наркотиками или беременностью, и необходимостью изучения основ в раннем возрасте. Обсуждаются проблемы, связанные с пластичностью мозга и тем, как образовательная система может подавлять творчество и интеллект. Автор предлагает идею о том, что вместо того чтобы настаивать на соблюдении и репродукции существующих теорий, лучше позволить детям самостоятельно изучать и развиваться в соответствии со своими интересами.

20:07

🧠 Пластичность мозга и обучение

Рассматривается вопрос о том, как обучение и опыт влияют на пластичность мозга, особенно в детстве. Автор отвергает идею о том, что с возрастом учебные возможности уменьшаются, и предлагает альтернативное представление о том, что люди могут учиться и развиваться на протяжении всей жизни. Обсуждаются примеры людей, которые учатся и достигают успеха в различных областях, даже если они не соответствуют стандартным представлениям о том, что должно быть изучено. Автор подчеркивает важность индивидуального подхода к обучению и развитию, а не принуждения к выполнению стандартных требований.

25:09

🌐 Творчество и определение человеческой природы

Автор завершает свой разговор о творчестве, обсуждая влияние генетических и окружающих факторов на формирование человеческой природы. Он подчеркивает, что, хотя генетика может определять некоторые аспекты нашего существования, это не ограничивает возможности для творчества и индивидуального развития. Обсуждаются результаты исследований о двойниках и влиянии окружающей среды на формирование интересов и предпочтений. Автор утверждает, что все люди обладают потенциалом для творчества, и это не зависит от их внешнего вида или поведения в определенных ситуациях.

30:09

💭 Специфические мысли и идеи о творчестве

Автор выражает свои мысли и идеи о творчестве, включая возможность создания AGI (искусственного общего интеллекта) и его потенциальных применений. Он также обсуждает идею того, что AGI может быть разработан не с помощью огромных вычислительных мощностей, а с помощью творческого подхода. Автор выражает свое мнение о том, что AGI может быть создан на основе уже существующих компьютеров, и выражает опасения о том, как регулирование AGI может ограничить индивидуальные возможности исследований. Затем автор обсуждает свои идеи о том, как создать творческий музыкальный инструмент, который может генерировать новые произведения, а не просто имитировать существующие.

35:10

🌌 Существование, сознание и их неизведанное

Автор завершает свой разговор, обсуждая фундаментальные вопросы существования и сознания. Он подчеркивает, что наука не преследует цель обеспечить окончательное объяснение всего существующего, а скорее продолжает исследовать и открыть новые аспекты реальности. Автор выражает свое убеждение, что сознание и существование - это сложные и многогранные явления, которые не могут быть полностью поняты или объяснены. Он также отмечает, что, хотя религиозные и духовные традиции могут предложить свои ответы на эти вопросы, они не являются исключительными или окончательными. Вместо этого автор предлагает оставаться открытым к новым идеям и исследованиям, которые могут помочь нам лучше понять нашу реальность и место в ней.

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Summarizing complex ideas

The process of condensing intricate concepts or theories into simpler, more understandable forms. In the video, the speaker discusses the difficulty of explaining complex ideas without being misunderstood, emphasizing the challenge of conveying intricate thoughts in a way that is easily grasped by others.

💡Misunderstandings

The video highlights the common occurrence of misunderstandings when discussing complex topics, especially on social media platforms like Twitter. Misunderstandings can stem from the oversimplification of ideas or the lack of context in which they are presented.

💡Proof and conjecture

The distinction between 'proof' as a term used in mathematics and physics, where it signifies an established and undeniable truth, and 'conjecture' which refers to a hypothesis or a proposed explanation yet to be proven. The speaker clarifies that in fields like artificial general intelligence (AGI), where no comprehensive theory exists, proving something definitively is not possible.

💡Concentric circles of understanding

This concept refers to the varying levels of comprehension that different individuals have regarding a particular idea or worldview. As people engage with and attempt to understand complex ideas, their levels of understanding expand outward like concentric circles, with some closer to the core having a deeper grasp of the subject.

💡Creativity

The ability to generate new ideas, concepts, or solutions that are both original and valuable. In the context of the video, creativity is discussed as a complex and not fully understood phenomenon that is distinct from mere observation, induction, or algorithmic processes.

💡Free will

The philosophical concept of the ability to make choices that are genuinely one's own. In the video, the speaker suggests a connection between creativity and free will, positing that the unknown origins of creativity imply a degree of freedom in operation.

💡Quantum theory and Turing conjecture

Quantum theory is a fundamental theory in physics describing the behavior of matter and energy at atomic and subatomic scales. The Turing conjecture, in computer science, is a hypothesis about the limits of what can be computed. The speaker mentions a connection between these two fields, suggesting that if quantum theory is true, then the Turing conjecture is also true, highlighting the interdisciplinary nature of scientific inquiry.

💡Necessity and truth in mathematics

In mathematics, a necessary truth is a statement that must be true under all circumstances. The speaker discusses the nature of mathematical knowledge as being about necessary truths, contrasting this with other fields where knowledge may be more contingent or provisional.

💡Explanatory knowledge

Knowledge that provides a reason or explanation for a phenomenon, as opposed to mere description or correlation. The speaker argues that explanatory knowledge allows for leaps in understanding and the ability to connect ideas or states in ways that are not immediately apparent.

💡Evolution and creativity

The process by which species change over time through genetic variation and natural selection, and the application of this concept to the discussion of creativity. The speaker uses the analogy of evolution to explain the emergence of new ideas and the development of human creativity.

💡Resilience of knowledge

The concept that knowledge, especially when it is laden with information, has a durability and longevity that surpasses physical objects. The speaker posits that knowledge can outlive the most enduring physical entities in the cosmos, emphasizing the power and longevity of human ideas and discoveries.

Highlights

The discussion emphasizes the challenge of communicating complex ideas clearly to avoid misunderstandings.

The conversation touches on the limitations of using the term 'proof' in fields outside of mathematics, highlighting the difference between necessary truths and conjectural knowledge.

The importance of creativity in driving progress is underscored, with the assertion that true creativity is not merely observation, induction, or recombination.

The discussion points out the misconceptions about creativity, particularly the notion that it is merely recombination, a metaphor that keeps coming back due to influential figures like Steve Jobs.

The conversation delves into the nature of creativity, suggesting that it is not just about scientific discovery and cannot be reduced to simple observations or recombination of existing ideas.

The discussion highlights the unique aspects of human creativity, such as the ability to make leaps in knowledge and form interconnections between ideas that are not possible through biological evolution.

The conversation explores the idea that human creativity, being explanatory in nature, can leap over gaps in knowledge space that cannot be traversed incrementally.

The discussion addresses the concept of knowledge as resilient information, which can outlive physical objects and is a testament to the power of human thought and understanding.

The conversation brings up the topic of AI and the potential for AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) to be superintelligent, but also the limitations in proving such claims without a comprehensive theory of AGI.

The discussion challenges the notion that creativity is limited by brain plasticity, arguing that the potential for learning and innovation is not confined to early life.

The conversation suggests that the current educational system may suppress creativity by focusing on obedience and replication of existing theories, rather than fostering individual exploration and innovation.

The discussion advocates for a more liberal approach to education, emphasizing the importance of treating children as individuals with their own rights and potential for creativity.

The conversation explores the potential of AGI to expand creativity by creating multiple instances of a mind, although it acknowledges the practical limitations and ethical considerations of such a scenario.

The discussion addresses the philosophical implications of AGI, including the concept of identity and the potential paradoxes that arise when minds are replicated or transferred to different substrates.

The conversation highlights the importance of understanding the nature of consciousness and existence, suggesting that science can contribute to this understanding by uncovering problems and exploring the big picture.

The discussion critiques the idea of ultimate explanations, arguing that the pursuit of knowledge should not be hindered by the belief in a final truth or a single, all-encompassing theory.

Transcripts

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on exactly that the fact that the more

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that we summarize what I think is a

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exceedingly clear body of work in the

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fabric of reality in the beginning of

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infinity when nonetheless you explain it

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to people as POA says you know it's

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impossible to speak in such a way as to

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not be misunderstood I was just reading

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today on Twitter someone claiming that

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you have said quoting you and they've

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put it in quot marks you have apparently

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said pop up proves AI can't be super

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intelligent and you know I sort of

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respond you know he never even speaks in

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those terms that he wouldn't rely upon

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the authority of Puba to begin with he

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wouldn't say proof so there just another

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example that you go out there and as you

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say these concentric circles of people

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that you bring in trying to understand

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your worldview the misconceptions

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compound I don't know what you think

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about that have you said anything like

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POA proves that and this was from a

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journalist by the way I think a

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reasonably respected journalist was

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saying this no of course not so as you

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say I mean as soon as you see a claim

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that somebody has proved something then

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you know proved it from what this isn't

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going to be poer it isn't going to be me

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I've proved that if quantum theory is

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true then the Turing conjecture is true

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in physics you know that's what you can

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do with the proof proving something

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about AGI is inherent ly impossible if

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we don't have a theory of AGI that you

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know you can't prove something about

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something that you can't Define and

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anyway proof isn't what these kind of

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things are about these kind of things

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are about argument and POA I can't

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recall POA specifically saying anything

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about AI it wasn't a thing in those days

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this word proof is something we haven't

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talked about during our conversations

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but you do hear it deployed quite often

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you know such and such has been proved

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as if to say this stands in contrast to

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our notion of conjectural knowledge or

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fallibility after all once something has

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been proved can't we carve it into stone

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and there it sits for all time is the

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notion of proof on a different level to

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the rest of our conjectural knowledge

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because it sounds I think to the typical

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lay person as if it is yeah well it

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isn't the difference between mathematics

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and other fields as I've often said is

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not in the way we find knowledge about

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them but in the subject matter the

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subject matter of mathematics is

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necessary truth so when we make a

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discovery in mathematics we're making a

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conjecture about what is necessary truth

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so we're making a conjecture that

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something or other that we have defined

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is a necessary truth but there isn't a

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difference in the way we create

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knowledge in our minds about mathematics

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or computer science or psychology or

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physics they're all the same

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epistemologically one topic that I kind

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of want to get into a little bit if I

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can switch for a moment is the topic of

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creativity and I know that it's uh very

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poorly defined and something that we

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don't quite have a grasp of and on air

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chat yesterday I was talking to people

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and I made some comment about as long as

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you have room for creativity you have

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room for free will because we don't know

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where creativity comes from and so that

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you know allows you to have this freedom

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of operation

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based on their creative theories I was

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making the point that true creativity is

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not from observation it's not from

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induction it's not from some algorithm

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that we know yet how to run and it's not

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just mixing things together and

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immediately the response was someone

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said well can you give me some examples

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of this creativity you're talking about

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right I think to people they feel like

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when we talk about this form of

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creativity we're just talking purely

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about scientific creativity like

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Einstein and I think some of these

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examples that we use are so far out

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there that people think well they're not

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talking about creativity they're talking

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about scientific discovery which is not

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what they're talking about and so most

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people seem to automatically fall into

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this trap that creativity is observation

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or

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recombination and I wonder if we can

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just explore what creativity is some

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real world examples that are just more

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down to earth and just kind of I'd love

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to once and for all put to bed this idea

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that is recombination I think you've

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done a great job showing that it's not

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observation but I think the

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recombination metaphor keeps coming back

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frankly because of authorities like

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Steve Jobs who authoritatively said

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creativity just mixing things together

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and that's a quote you find on posters

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everywhere yeah well it's only the word

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just that is false there so like I said

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yesterday you know it's like saying

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humans are just atoms we are just atoms

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in the sense that there isn't any magic

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thing in addition to atoms that makes us

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but that's not to say that we are just

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atoms if you take a snapshot of North

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America thousand years ago and then take

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another snapshot today the difference

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between the look of Manhattan Island

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then and now cannot be explained without

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invoking

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creativity nothing but creativity could

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have produced that there are no natural

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processes that will ever produce

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something like a skyscraper so to

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explain the phenomena that happened on

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Manhattan Island you need to invoke

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creativity but now somebody will say now

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point to some

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creativity and I can zoom down on a

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particular architect with his

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old-fashioned draftsman's board and his

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paper and his ruler and his compass and

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his brain and I can examine those with a

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microscope and uh somebody will ask me

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well at which point did creativity

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happen what was creative about what that

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architect did that was not just atoms

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and if you like bringing together ideas

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that had happened before well if all our

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ideas are just recombinations of ideas

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that have happened before then there's

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nothing new about the skyscraper that

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wasn't already there when our ancestors

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were banging rocks together but there is

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they didn't and couldn't build

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skyscrapers and we can and do least I

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can't but the human species can the

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other side they'll say well yeah you

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can't go straight from banging rocks to

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skyscrapers but they went from banging

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rocks to figure how to shape rocks to

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build tools and then they recombined

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that knowledge of building tools and

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digging and so on and so forth so it was

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just all it was stepbystep recombination

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almost like an evolutionary process well

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an evolutionary process is also not just

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recombination it's variation and

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selection so again it's it's the same

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thing if you look at the DNA of

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successive generations of you know

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dinosaurs and they turned into Birds

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each one of those steps is not

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evolutionary and yet the whole sequence

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is but it would be absurd to say that

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the design of a pterodactyl was already

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in the DNA of non-flying dinosaurs or

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that the pterodactyl is just a

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combination of different things that

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were in the dinosaurs it's just not true

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the pterodactyl

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functionality was nowhere

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until it evolved and it wasn't anywhere

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in the past and not in the dinosaurs and

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not in the single cells organisms that

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were the ancestors of dinosaurs it just

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wasn't there it was new when the ability

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to fly evolved in the lineage of

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dinosaurs in the pterodactyl case there

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was one or a series of random mutations

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that turned out to be adaptive for that

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set of genes yes and those mutations

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were essentially blind they were broken

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DNA strands or just new DNA strands and

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in the human case that's not quite

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what's happening the search space we're

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going through is larger and we're

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searching through it faster to make

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these creative leaps is that an

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intuition that you have is there any

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learning or knowledge behind that I'm

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not trying to solve the problem of how

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creativity works I know that's a

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unsolved problem but for example could

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one say that humans are narrowing the

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search space faster because the ative

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mutations to coin a term that we're

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making are not random they are more

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directed or perhaps they're random but

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they're random in our minds and we cut

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through them so fast without having to

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implement them in the real world that

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perhaps we narrow the search space

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faster is our process faster and if so

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why it's not only faster it is

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explanatory which means that because

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it's explanatory it means it can leap

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over gaps in the knowledge space that

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couldn't be traversed incrementally so

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when evolution is not only millions of

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times slower it's inherently different

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in the not only can it only make small

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conjectures in the form of mutations but

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it can only improve on things

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incrementally so you can only make you

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know pterodactyl Wings if you previously

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had limbs or if you previously had

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something that could be incrementally

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changed into Wings such that every

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microscopic change was still viable as

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an organism so that's why we can't

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expect biological

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evolution to my favorite example again

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to evolve a system for deflecting

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asteroids that is because there is no

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incremental problem situation where the

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expenditure of energy or whatever to

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deflect I mean you know the asteroid hit

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is once every few million years and it

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cannot exert evolutionary pressure so

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basically the creative guesses that

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humans make because they're explanatory

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in nature they can leap through the

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entire idea space and form

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interconnections between any two ideas

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or any two states whereas biological has

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to Traverse through the physical world

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limitations and what the organism is

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capable of right now yes and it has to

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Traverse it while staying alive it has

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to be a v orm all the way through

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whereas if you want a new design of

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airplane and you say maybe it would be

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better to have the tail plane as a

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single object rather than this thing

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with wings then you know I've just said

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that in one sentence and if that's a

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good idea it could be criticized by an

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aeronautical engineer and so on but to

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make that change

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incrementally will probably produce a

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whole series of airplanes that won't fly

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so is this a consequence of being

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Universal in nature we can model any

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system in our head and therefore we can

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connect any part of it to any other part

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of it yes I mean that's what really what

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we mean by being Universal we can get to

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any idea and criticize it for whether it

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is a good idea or not so the

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aeronautical engineer doesn't have to

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test every single airplane that in his

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wild ideas you know maybe has a wild

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idea driving to work one day that maybe

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wings should be made of paper so in that

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sense the biological system is a highly

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focused analog computer that's running

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sort of a single algorithm and the

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virtual system in our head is more like

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a digital programmable computer so the

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DNA system is entirely digital this

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incremental thing is not a continuous

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change so one mutation is still a

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Quantum difference if you had a

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difference that involved less than one

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base pair then the whole DNA would fall

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apart if you try to replace adenine by

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glucose then the whole thing wouldn't

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work as DNA at all although we speak of

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evolutionism happening incrementally

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it's incrementally in discrete steps so

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both thinking and biological evolution

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happen in discreete steps biological

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evolution happens though in very small

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steps which are undesigned so there's no

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designer that designs the Next Mutation

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it's random it strikes me that the setti

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project is looking for biomarkers

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they're out there searching for evidence

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of biology but the way you've poetically

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framed this idea of well there are

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billions of asteroids out there right

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now Across the Universe crashing into

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billions of planets right now but here

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might be the one place where if you had

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the T escope pointed from another planet

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towards us you would see the repelling

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of asteroids this would be an indication

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of intelligence there's no other

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explanation there's no biological

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explanation there's no random chance

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there's no magic it must be explanatory

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creativity that does that thing and

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talking about Manhattan before

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everywhere across the Earth are rocks

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being eroded and inevitably being eroded

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by weathering and rain and whatever but

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in some places the cities of the world

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there are rocks call them buildings

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which are not being so eroded or in so

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far as they are they're being constantly

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repaired Again by explanatory knowledge

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and so that introduces this idea of

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knowledge as resilient information the

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very thing that will outlive even the

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Rocks so long as we can continue to

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survive then the knowledge that we have

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will continue to survive outlasting the

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longest existing things in the cosmos

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yes uh they very nicely put and

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Shakespeare by the way also said the

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same thing in his uh son new so so long

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lives this and this gives life to the so

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he's saying that his Sonet will outlive

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anything and he's right right shall I

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compare thee to a summer's day though

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art so fair yes or so temperate forget

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yes that that was a great one yeah it's

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also similar to azim mandas if you read

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that one by

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yeah where it's the artist's uh

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conception that survives the Empire and

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the King yes exactly and and it's simply

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literally true that knowledge Laden

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information is more resilient than any

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physical object so not to get personal

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for a moment but is this an argument for

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spreading your ideas rather than having

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children well as David fredman says if

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the world is worth saving it's worth

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saving at a profit and I would

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generalize

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it's if the world is worth saving it's

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worth saving with fun so I think youve

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talked a little bit about AGI or or

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rather forget even AGI or just people

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uploading their brains into a computer

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in the future and if their minds are in

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the computer if same software is running

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then that is a living being that is a

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mind that is the definition of a person

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and this brings up all sorts of

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interesting paradoxes and situations

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which many sci-fi authors including Greg

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Ean have explored what if you were to

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replicate this mind a billion times what

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if you were to shut it down what if you

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were to run it back in slow motion what

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if you were to pause it and I think I

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don't know how far we are from that

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probably still quite far Neil Stevenson

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also talked about it in his book The

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Fall there's also cloning coming up I

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mean people are now successfully cloning

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dogs it's only a matter of time before

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we're cloning humans where do you think

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this leads in terms of the number of

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people I mean in theory couldn't we have

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then infinite people or close to

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infinite people running in a silicon sub

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substrate and does this lead to even

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more of an explosion of creativity yes

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it would and I think something like that

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will happen but I think it's somewhat

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exaggerating both the problem and the

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opportunity I think we mustn't think of

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compute as being free as the AI people

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call it when you duplicate an AGI you

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make an exact copy of it either you run

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it in the same computer in which case

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there's only half the amount of memory

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available for each of them and only half

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the number of processor Cycles or you

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move them into a different computer in

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which case the original computer is

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presumably the property of the AGI

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because otherwise it's a slave if it

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doesn't even own its own body so if it's

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going to copy itself into another

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computer somebody has to buy that it

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might earn the money to buy itself

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another computer but that doesn't change

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the fact that hardware-wise it's now

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owning twice as much Hardware as it did

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before and there's no Infinity about

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this you know we have billions of

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computers but we don't have sex silons

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of computers one day we will but one day

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that will seem not very much either so

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yes there's a huge potential for

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additional creativity with additional

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people if additional people want to make

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even more people and to some extent that

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will happen but it's not going to be an

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explosion it's not like a meme which

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somebody invents and then immediately

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goes to a billion people around the

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world it's not like that if the meme is

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an

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AGI then it will want to live it will

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want to have its creativity harnessed

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towards some problem that it likes to

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solve and it will have to buy the

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resources to do that with you know the

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existing memes they buy tiny fraction of

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a of a dollar's worth of memory of of

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each of the people who download it but

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even those people don't keep it forever

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those people might keep it for a year or

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two until they sell their computer or

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something but for large amounts of

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memory they still cost money and other

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Hardware also costs money now there is

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the other problem so that's me saying

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it's not as great as you make out but

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it's also not as bad as you make out

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because these problems with supposing

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you make a billion copies of you

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there'll be the problem of whether each

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of them should have one vote or whether

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they should share one vote between them

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and you know the uh institution of one

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person one vote has served us well for a

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couple of hundred years that's going to

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have to be modified but I think there's

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no big deal about this we we already

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have lots of people in society that

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don't have the vote like um immigrants

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before they get citizenship and children

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and foreigners living temporarily and we

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manage we man managed to give all those

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people human rights yeah I'm not saying

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the system is perfect for all those

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types of people it's not perfect for

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people with the vote either but I think

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it won't be a big problem to tweak the

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institutions of property and of politics

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to accommodate agis you know with a bit

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of Goodwill that can all be solved so

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you mentioned children we're searching

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or trying to create agis when you have

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all this untapped intelligence already

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on the planet in the form of children

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who are mostly coerced through their

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lives and not allowed to be as creative

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or freely expressive as they could

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otherwise be and you've talked about

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this the philosophy of taking children

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seriously there are unsophisticated

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objections say Let me throw out what I

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think are sophisticated

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objections or at least my objections

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maybe I'm just calling myself

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sophisticated the first objection would

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be that and I think you would probably

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agree on this is that there are certain

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actions which are irreversible in nature

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for for example you kill somebody or you

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get somebody pregnant or they get you

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pregnant and some of these you would

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stop an adult from doing as well you

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would stop an adult from committing

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murder or suicide but at the same time a

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child may not understand the

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consequences uh the full consequences of

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for example unprotected sex leading to

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pregnancy or committing a what they

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think is a small crime or taking a very

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addictive drug like a fentel or

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something which may then unlock

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something that they're not quite used to

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or ready to handle so you know one class

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of objections would be well I want to

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stop my kid from taking fentanyl or

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doing a hard drug because they have not

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yet developed the resistance to it and I

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can try and talk them out of it but if

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they're going to take it anyway then I

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have to forcibly stop them that is one

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set of objections the other which is

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related is around brain plasticity so if

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they don't learn matths and piano at an

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early age or language or proper reading

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then it's going to be much harder for

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them to acquire that skill later on and

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we know that some of these skills are so

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fundamental that if you don't pick them

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up early on they close off entire

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Avenues and yes there are exceptions of

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geniuses who pick up the violin at the

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age of 20 or pick up math at the age of

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15 or whatever but isn't there an

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argument to be made that for the average

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child you want them to learn

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fundamentals at an early age so that

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then they have the freedom to explore

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and be creative in those domains later I

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think we could add disasters is very

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difficult to come back from now every

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single one of the dangers that you

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actually mentioned you would there we

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could mention an infinite number but

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it's interesting that the ones you

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actually mentioned are notorious

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problems in our society in present day

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Society in society where it's taken for

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granted that you can use unlimited Force

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to prevent children from doing things to

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themselves in some cases it's legal to

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use unlimited Force to prevent an adult

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doing them but many of the things adults

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are allowed to to do and not just

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allowed to do a legally protected right

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to do and children don't and it doesn't

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work the reason you mentioned them is

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that they are notorious problems now

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with the present

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arrangements so in order to make this an

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objection to taking children seriously

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and you know treating children as people

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you have to have an additional theory

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that treating people as people makes

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these problems worse than better so you

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have at the moment a population of

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children and a society that is focused

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on preventing them from taking drugs by

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force and yet thousands millions of them

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take drugs and some of them suffer

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irreversible consequences so I think

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preventing this is a matter of knowledge

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all evils due to lack of knowledge when

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you're unable to persuade somebody of

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something there's a reason for that that

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it's not that people are

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inherently I make the joke that that

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people say that children are so gullible

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that they won't listen to a word I say

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The Stereotype involves them being

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infinitely gullible on the one hand and

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infinitely resistant to argument on the

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other hand and often in the same breath

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like in my joke and that's not true

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children are Universal and what's more

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they're not like agis they're not just

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any old Universal thing they Universal

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thing that is trying to integrate itself

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into our culture our culture is the best

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thing we know of it's a disaster not to

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successfully integrate oneself into it

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and it happens all the time today now

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under existing Arrangements that people

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end up being criminals despite the

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entire weight of society being directed

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towards preventing them from becoming

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criminals now one thing that we know is

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that the creativity to prevent the Next

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Generation from you know taking drugs or

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becoming terrorists or or whatever

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cannot be creativity just exerted in the

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minds of the teacher of of society of

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the adult learning has to be a creative

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act in the mind of the recipient always

play24:22

children adults that's the only way that

play24:24

anyone ever learns anything by exerting

play24:26

their creativity and existing

play24:29

Arrangements not only thwart the actions

play24:35

but much more important they are

play24:38

directed towards suppressing the

play24:40

creativity Itself by for example making

play24:44

the education system inculcate obedience

play24:48

first of all and secondly by making it

play24:52

inculcate existing theories so if you

play24:55

successfully inculcated existing

play24:58

theories and obedience in the whole

play25:01

population You couldn't possibly get

play25:04

anything better than the existing

play25:06

population so no improvement could ever

play25:09

happen but it would be worse because the

play25:11

people in present Society are creative

play25:14

they manag to weave their way through

play25:16

this Thicket of um thwarting that is

play25:20

trying to make them not make progress

play25:23

and they do make progress anyway but if

play25:25

we succeeded in making a generation that

play25:27

didn't do that then at best we'd have

play25:31

staticity and the staticity will

play25:33

eventually be disastrous I'm not saying

play25:36

that emancipating children is something

play25:38

that can be done by Fiat it can't be

play25:41

done overnight by just saying we're

play25:43

going to do it any more than we can

play25:46

instill scientific creativity in a

play25:49

person in the street who is not

play25:51

interested in science that's not known

play25:53

that's that's like arbitrarily

play25:55

programming somebody to be disobedient

play25:57

OB you it's inherently impossible but to

play26:01

emancipate children from the

play26:05

institutions of society that are

play26:08

admittedly openly designed to do those

play26:11

two things namely create obedience and

play26:14

to replicate existing theories that we

play26:17

can do that it is known how to do you

play26:20

know there are people who do it most of

play26:21

the parents who object to school do not

play26:25

really object to the underlying

play26:26

epistemology of school they still

play26:28

believe what Papa called the bucket

play26:31

theory of knowledge or the bucket theory

play26:32

of the mind they only think that the

play26:34

school has been pouring bad stuff into

play26:36

their children and they want to pour

play26:38

good stuff into their children whereas

play26:41

what I advocate is to give children

play26:43

access to whatever they want to pour

play26:46

into themselves and pouring is the wrong

play26:48

metaphor because they create it

play26:50

internally so in your model it's closer

play26:54

to an unschooling than a homeschooling

play26:57

cuz homeschooling is attempting to

play26:58

replicate the school in a home context

play27:00

yes unschooling might be here's a

play27:02

library here's your musical instruments

play27:05

here's your access to other kids and you

play27:08

choose well yes although this giving

play27:11

access is itself not a mechanical

play27:13

process it involves thinking you know

play27:16

what might the children want you know

play27:17

what might they like what might they

play27:20

want to know what might they want to be

play27:21

warned of it's a continual interaction

play27:24

not a hands-off thing it's coercion of

play27:27

off not interaction of it's just that

play27:30

the interaction that I advocate is not

play27:33

directed towards obedience and it's not

play27:37

directed towards any particular thing

play27:39

that I think you know I think quantum

play27:41

theory is important I don't think I have

play27:43

the right to force anybody to learn it

play27:46

even if I think it would benefit them

play27:47

greatly I don't think that's a

play27:49

relationship I want to have with

play27:51

somebody and I don't think it's a good

play27:52

thing overall what about the argument

play27:54

that brains are more plastic yeah that

play27:57

was your second argument well first of

play28:00

all it's rather ironic given that the

play28:03

existing pattern of Education as I say

play28:06

is explicitly designed to waste all that

play28:10

plasticity by making everybody have the

play28:13

same ideas schools advertise saying you

play28:15

know we're going to make your children

play28:17

all get A's so in other words we're

play28:19

going to make your children all alike

play28:22

and let's imagine a school with a good

play28:25

ethos it would be advertising we're

play28:27

going to make your children all

play28:29

different we're going to make them more

play28:30

different than you can imagine all our

play28:33

alumni are radically different people

play28:36

from each other of course you know we

play28:38

also think hope expect that they will

play28:41

all be nice people despite being

play28:43

radically different from each other this

play28:45

plasticity notion and this will likely

play28:48

upset our educationalists who might be

play28:50

listening and neuroscientists might be

play28:52

listening evokes the notion of Hardware

play28:55

so I don't know what you think about

play28:56

this that there is this golden window

play28:59

supposedly early on in life where unless

play29:02

you get taught the language or unless

play29:04

you get taught the mathematics then the

play29:06

window closes and the parallel or the

play29:09

mirror image of this is you can't teach

play29:11

an old dog new tricks so at one end is

play29:14

the golden opportunity for Learning and

play29:16

the other end learning is closed off

play29:17

from you now I've got my own stock

play29:19

answer of this but the cultural answer

play29:22

seems to be it is brain Decay that goes

play29:25

on you start out with a a brain that is

play29:27

a sponge and by the end all hope is

play29:31

almost lost to you to learn anything new

play29:33

what do you think about that well I

play29:35

don't know the fact of the matter about

play29:38

how the brain works and I don't think

play29:39

neuroscientists do either but I'm not

play29:42

hostile to the idea that the hardware of

play29:44

a brain works better when one is Young I

play29:47

just don't think it's relevant to

play29:48

anything I read somewhere that it's

play29:51

totally not true that you can't teach an

play29:53

old dog new tricks old dogs are are just

play29:56

as able to learn new tricks as young

play29:58

dogs so you know but that's dogs and I

play30:00

don't think we are like dogs anyway in

play30:02

the first place and I don't think that

play30:04

dogs learning tricks is a good metaphor

play30:06

for humans learning mathematics it's a

play30:09

different thing Thomas zaz says they

play30:12

should walk in different doors into

play30:14

different buildings in the university to

play30:16

discuss those things different people

play30:19

are different there are people who like

play30:22

to learn languages you can find them on

play30:24

the Internet and I'm flabbergasted by

play30:27

what they can do you know they are

play30:29

people who learn Latin but not just

play30:31

learn Latin they learn realistic Latin

play30:35

not as it's taught in Latin lessons but

play30:37

how it was actually spoken how do you

play30:39

find out how it was actually spoken well

play30:41

this is a tremendous sophisticated

play30:44

branch of History where they can

play30:46

actually learn a lot about how people

play30:49

used to speak and I saw a video of a guy

play30:53

walking around Rome talking to priests

play30:55

in classical Latin and to see if they

play30:58

would understand him and they kind of

play31:00

half understood him and then you know

play31:02

when they realized what was happening

play31:04

they would say you know what's happening

play31:06

and then he would reply in medieval

play31:08

Church Latin what he was doing you know

play31:10

he just saying you know I'm doing an

play31:11

experiment and then they would

play31:13

understand him but he had the right

play31:15

medieval Church Latin accent and they

play31:19

have the present day Church Latin accent

play31:22

and there are also people who learn lots

play31:24

of languages and speak it like a native

play31:27

can't be distinguished from a native so

play31:29

why are those people so rare well I

play31:32

don't want to do it if I could do it by

play31:34

snapping my fingers I definitely would

play31:36

but I'm not sufficiently interested to

play31:39

engage with other languages to the

play31:41

extent that I engage with English by the

play31:44

way another thing is that people are

play31:46

constantly learning their own language

play31:48

their native language and if one is

play31:51

interested in communication one is doing

play31:54

that all the time no two people speak

play31:56

the same English therefore communicating

play31:59

one of the reasons that papa says you

play32:01

know you can't speak so that it's

play32:03

impossible not to be understood one of

play32:05

the reasons for that is that everybody

play32:07

speaks a different English everybody

play32:09

means a different thing by the word

play32:12

thought or freedom and and idea and

play32:16

theory and creativity everybody means

play32:19

something different even within the

play32:22

exact Sciences you know every physicist

play32:25

has a different conception of of what a

play32:27

manifold is they overlap enough to be

play32:31

able to communicate well very well

play32:34

sometimes never perfectly and sometimes

play32:38

they find it hard to communicate even

play32:40

imperfectly even though they have

play32:42

ostensibly gone through the same

play32:44

learning process but every physicist is

play32:48

different every physicist has different

play32:50

problem situation has a different set of

play32:53

ideas that they think of as what physics

play32:56

is and and they differ from each other

play32:59

so if they want to work together they

play33:02

often have to work at understanding what

play33:05

each other mean now

play33:08

plasticity if it's true that the the

play33:10

brain sort of works FAS or whatever lays

play33:12

down memories more easily or something

play33:15

when one is Young for Hardware reasons I

play33:17

don't see how that changes anything you

play33:19

might want a person to have an intuitive

play33:22

knowledge of piano playing but that's

play33:25

what you want that may not be what they

play33:27

want and there's an infinite number of

play33:28

things that somebody might want them to

play33:30

be proficient at and it's impossible

play33:34

there is no one who is proficient at all

play33:36

the things that Society thinks children

play33:40

should grow up proficient at my can

play33:43

picture following on from your own work

play33:45

was that because we are little learning

play33:49

machines throughout our lives we're

play33:52

learning the good ideas but we're also

play33:54

picking up bad ideas as well and in

play33:56

particular anti-rational memes all the

play33:59

ways in which we might be embarrassed

play34:01

about trying to learn the bad

play34:03

experiences we have while learning

play34:05

especially at school and so therefore

play34:09

you know the newborn baby is

play34:10

unencumbered largely by any of these

play34:13

anti-rational means they're just trying

play34:14

out everything and they go through

play34:16

infancy they're still very good but by

play34:18

the time you get to Primary School

play34:20

you've been punished a couple of times

play34:21

perhaps if you're going through the

play34:22

traditional schooling so your capacity

play34:25

to learn gets worse and worse and worse

play34:27

until by the time most of us are adults

play34:29

we've had some bad experiences with

play34:31

learning and by the towards the end of

play34:32

your life you're just you're tired of

play34:35

learning because you've you associate it

play34:37

with punishments or you associate with

play34:39

embarrassment or shame could this also

play34:42

be at least part of the explanation it

play34:45

could be and it sounds plausible and I

play34:47

like the theory because as it were

play34:49

politically it it backs up what I would

play34:52

have people do but you know I wouldn't

play34:54

be surprised if that isn't true and if

play34:57

the plasticity theory is true or if some

play34:59

other theory is true I don't think is

play35:01

relevant and by the way you speak of

play35:05

young children being punished for making

play35:07

mistakes and you know being thwarted at

play35:09

every step in elementary school and you

play35:13

got to remember that there are children

play35:15

who aren't put off who just sail through

play35:17

all that despite being coerced and

play35:20

forced to learn things that they bore

play35:22

them and despite all that they go

play35:24

through the same thing that everyone

play35:26

else does to which you attribute the

play35:29

fact that they're getting slower and

play35:30

slower at learning and yet there are

play35:32

some people who it doesn't affect or at

play35:35

least it doesn't affect them in the

play35:36

areas that they like so Mozart for

play35:39

example was treated horribly as a child

play35:43

forced to perform like a performing

play35:45

monkey for audiences for money and so on

play35:49

and yet he learned music better than

play35:52

anyone else in the world in his day and

play35:56

he continued to learn like we can see

play35:59

that his works are getting better and

play36:00

better over time before he died in his

play36:03

30s whatever the relationship is between

play36:06

external coercion and brain lack of

play36:09

ficity and so on I think those are not

play36:14

the important things peer pressure and

play36:16

whatever the reason we should make

play36:19

education more liberal is not that it

play36:23

will create a lot of geniuses I me it

play36:26

might for all I I mean as you know that

play36:28

that's another that's another one of the

play36:29

things I don't know it could do but

play36:32

that's not the reason for doing it the

play36:34

reason for doing it is that children are

play36:37

people and some of the few handles we

play36:41

have on making a society that is amable

play36:45

to progress is making it Freer so we

play36:49

should make it Freer for people who are

play36:51

on their deathbed and are going to die

play36:53

in the next day and it's not because we

play36:56

think they might have a brilliant idea

play36:57

during the next day it's because they

play36:59

are people and have rights they have the

play37:02

right to flourish in whatever way is

play37:04

left open to them by the Grim forces of

play37:06

nature or in the case of young children

play37:09

whatever is made open to them by the

play37:12

benevolent forces of nature that give

play37:15

them plastic minds or whatever who knows

play37:18

like another thing that just occurs to

play37:20

me it's a mistake to think that if this

play37:23

plasticity isn't being hijacked by some

play37:26

education process that is not being used

play37:29

it is being used I mean why would

play37:32

Evolution like waste it it's being used

play37:35

in a way that the individuals think will

play37:38

be best for them of course their

play37:40

conjectures about what is best for them

play37:42

are going to be full of errors but so

play37:44

are adults conjectures all our

play37:47

conjectures are full of Errors making

play37:50

institutions that tend to facilitate the

play37:53

growth of knowledge is not the same in

play37:55

fact it's the opposite it of making

play37:58

institutions that produce people to a

play38:01

predefined recipe as you've tweeted I

play38:04

think Brett everybody who has an idea

play38:06

that something or other is good they

play38:08

express it in the form all children

play38:10

should be forced to learn this thing if

play38:12

you add up all those things it will take

play38:15

several lifetimes yeah I find it

play38:17

remarkable whatever the topic dour

play38:20

happens to be you know we go through

play38:22

these fads of well now let's Force

play38:25

nutrition onto children that's extremely

play38:28

social justice is one that's coming out

play38:31

recently and almost every year there's

play38:33

the history Wars it's like how what

play38:35

version of History are we going to teach

play38:37

yeah and nothing's ever taken away from

play38:40

the curriculum really modified perhaps

play38:43

but not eliminated then there are these

play38:44

turf wars between certainly Nations

play38:47

about who has the best mathematic

play38:49

syllabus and that kind of thing I

play38:51

suppose one thing that young people are

play38:55

ever eager to do is to emulate people

play38:58

they admire of course and so I think

play39:01

there are a number of people out there

play39:03

young who would admire especially

play39:05

yourself and they would think I would

play39:07

like to be able to do that thing I would

play39:09

like to be able to contribute to that

play39:11

thing what would be a way in which a

play39:14

young person could pursue that you

play39:18

wouldn't want to prescribe a syllabus

play39:20

and you might very well just say just

play39:22

pursue what's fun but is there anything

play39:26

more concrete that you could hang on

play39:28

that rather than just do what you like

play39:31

almost yeah well do what you like it's

play39:33

totally not helpful because the person

play39:36

is already doing what they like unless

play39:38

someone stopping them but there's also

play39:41

nothing you can say if you know nothing

play39:42

about their problem situation so there's

play39:44

there's no generic thing you can advise

play39:47

someone to do if you've watched a

play39:50

documentary about Michael Faraday and

play39:52

you think that's the kind of person I

play39:55

want to be

play39:57

well then okay that's a starting point

play39:59

then we can talk about first the fact

play40:01

that you can't reproduce Michael

play40:03

Faraday's environment and you wouldn't

play40:05

want to so you know what is it about

play40:08

Michael Faraday okay well Michael

play40:10

Faraday had a laboratory in the basement

play40:13

of the Royal Institution and they would

play40:15

fiddle around with electrical things

play40:17

well okay that's a beginning but you

play40:19

know you may not have enough money to

play40:21

set up your own laboratory actually if

play40:23

you're starting out fiddling with things

play40:25

it doesn't really take money I'm

play40:28

imagining a non-existent person here and

play40:30

giving them advice I think that's all

play40:32

right because I'm not going to harm

play40:34

anybody but I would say if the

play40:36

conversation went that way I would be

play40:38

saying well there are lots of YouTube

play40:41

videos showing people messing about with

play40:44

the very things that you have just said

play40:46

you like messing about okay so watch

play40:49

those videos if there's something in a

play40:52

video that you don't understand ask

play40:54

somebody now that we have the Internet

play40:56

it's particularly easy but even before

play40:58

the internet you know there's Hugh

play41:00

Everett wrote a letter to Einstein when

play41:03

he was 12 years old and Einstein wrote a

play41:06

very nice letter back and no doubt it

play41:09

inspired Everett and you don't need the

play41:12

full attention of Einstein throughout

play41:15

your exploration of physics you only

play41:17

need it when you encounter a problem

play41:19

that is suitable for asking Einstein

play41:21

which doesn't happen all that often but

play41:23

when it does today it is far far easier

play41:27

to ask the perfect person who is the

play41:30

perfect person to answer your question

play41:33

and people do that people write to me

play41:35

asking questions and I try to answer as

play41:37

many as I can as well as I can so the

play41:40

more you interact with somebody the more

play41:42

you can appreciate their problem

play41:44

situation and the more you can say well

play41:45

if I was in that problem situation I

play41:47

would you know watch this or read this

play41:50

or ask this person or sequester yourself

play41:53

somewhere where you won't be disturbed

play41:55

and try this

play41:56

another question I had it seems like

play41:59

your deeply optimistic Viewpoint about

play42:02

children and people and minds and

play42:04

freedom comes from the understanding

play42:07

that we're Universal explainers and so

play42:10

anyone is capable of any thought and any

play42:13

amount of creativity this seems to fly a

play42:16

little bit in the face of modern

play42:18

Sciences finding in genetics and saying

play42:21

that well genes seem to account for more

play42:24

than nurture so to speak although in

play42:26

this case we're not talking about nature

play42:27

or nurture we're talking about

play42:28

creativity versus nature so how much of

play42:32

a person's thoughts and Destiny are

play42:35

determined by nature versus their own

play42:38

creativity and doesn't this fly in the

play42:41

face of all these twin studies that show

play42:43

that you separate these identical twins

play42:44

at Birth and their outcomes are roughly

play42:46

similar in life regardless of what

play42:48

circumstances they grow up in oh well

play42:51

that okay that's again more than one

play42:53

question but let let me ask the second

play42:54

one first now twin studies are only

play42:58

persuasive if you already believe the

play43:01

bucket theory of the mind or the the a

play43:04

mechanical theory of how thinking works

play43:07

so the idea is is the content of your

play43:10

thoughts determined more by the content

play43:13

of your

play43:14

DNA or more by what people do to you

play43:19

apart from harm that is done to you the

play43:22

main content of your thought is created

play43:24

by you why did you switch on the TV and

play43:28

watch that documentary about

play43:29

Faraday well who knows it's not encoded

play43:33

in your DNA that you will on a

play43:35

particular day watch a particular

play43:37

documentary nor was it inculcated in you

play43:41

by your environment by whether you were

play43:43

allowed to eat ice cream whenever you

play43:45

like or not it's an unpredictable

play43:48

feature of your genes and environment

play43:51

that end up at a certain place but then

play43:56

the important thing that happens is that

play43:58

you think about that and you create a

play44:00

new thing and if you are inspired by

play44:03

that documentary to try to be like

play44:07

Faraday then it's not the documentary

play44:10

that has done this to you the

play44:11

documentary was seen by another million

play44:13

people and it had no effect on any of

play44:15

them or it had a different should we say

play44:17

it had a different effect on all of them

play44:19

the effect on you was created by you so

play44:23

if you have this view of what human

play44:26

thought is then it's totally

play44:30

unsurprising that two people who look

play44:32

alike but are educated by different

play44:34

people in the same culture are going to

play44:37

have similarities in their thoughts the

play44:40

ones who never had a TV and never

play44:42

watched a faraday documentary are going

play44:45

to have different thoughts from the ones

play44:47

who did or maybe not maybe it's the one

play44:50

who didn't watch the TV documentary who

play44:53

becomes interested in Faraday and if if

play44:56

they're similar it's because people who

play44:59

look alike are treated in a similar way

play45:01

there's a sort of compulsion to deny

play45:04

this among people who believe in nurture

play45:08

rather than nature you know they they

play45:09

say okay well how would it affect it I I

play45:12

don't know but it's not surprising that

play45:14

there are ways in which people who look

play45:16

alike acquire similar attributes the

play45:19

trivia way that you've pointed out

play45:20

yourself when talking about this is if

play45:22

you know the beautiful people the people

play45:24

who appear on the front of magazines are

play45:26

obviously going to be treated in a

play45:28

certain way so if you have twins like

play45:30

that you know these two model like

play45:32

people they're going to be treated in

play45:33

one way these other two twins that maybe

play45:35

aren't quite so attractive they going to

play45:37

be treated in a different way so that's

play45:39

a trivial way in which that kind of

play45:40

thing might happen and not only

play45:42

appearance but Behavior so there are

play45:45

inborn behaviors like babies smiling or

play45:48

babies blinking or babies looking in a

play45:51

certain way at a person doing a certain

play45:53

thing or listening to a sound in a

play45:55

certain way way and those initial

play45:57

behaviors are changed by the baby in

play46:01

solving their problems but also they are

play46:05

noticed by adults in the environment who

play46:08

are solving their problems and if they

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see the baby doing something that they

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approve of they will behave differently

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to if they see the baby doing things

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that they don't approve of or are

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indifferent to or and if if they see a

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thing that is really great or really

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dangerous or you know really uh

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something which is an inborn Behavior

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they will behave differently

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accordingly and this will create a new

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problem situation for the baby I was

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once having this very argument with

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Michael Lockwood and uh he was saying

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well if the baby has more hardware for

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pattern matching than another you know

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we have hardware for facial recognition

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so maybe we have hardware for pattern

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matching I don't know maybe we do and so

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maybe a baby that has better hardware

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for pattern matching will behave

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differently when they get colored blocks

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to put one on top of the other and so

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maybe such a baby would be more likely

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to become a mathematician than a baby

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that hasn't got such good pattern

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matching Hardware so I said yeah I can't

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say that won't happen it's got nothing

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to do with what we're arguing about but

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it could happen but let me just point

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out that what could also happen is that

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the baby was better patent matching

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Hardware who is more likely to play with

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the wooden blocks is more likely to make

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his parents worried that he's not

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playing outside in the garden and

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frolicking in the grass and so they if

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they think he's autistic or something

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and is too much attached to his blocks

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they will try to make him go out and

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play outside and so it's the one who's

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Le has less pattern matching ability who

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will as a result of his treatment end up

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being a mathematician I was always not

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forced but I was always harassed when I

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was a kid to go out and play more and

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stop reading because I was buried in

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random useless magazines and books and

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whatever happened to be lying around

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said go outside go outside play with

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your friends get some sun go out go out

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um and I had the most horrible diet I

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was basically just living indoors in the

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dark and reading and eating the most

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horrible things in the fridge when

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nobody was

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looking ah well I I can empathize with

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all of that except the last thing you

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know each to his own is is motto you're

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a very rigorous thinker and I think

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you're very careful in the claims that

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you make but I wonder if you have

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conjectures about things that don't

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really have much basis and evidence at

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the moment but it's just sort of like if

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there were infinite David deutsches or

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infinite time you would end up pursuing

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these conjectures so I just love to you

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know understand if you have any such

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conjectures I know you're pursuing

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Constructor Theory so maybe you're

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already doing the one you really care

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about but are there others so for

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example Schrodinger had his is what is

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life paper you know people have always

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been wrestling with Consciousness that's

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another one we talked about creativity

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another one could be what direction

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would you go in if you were trying to

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build minds and silicon and AGI I'm

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wondering if you have any fanciful

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conjectures which we will disclaim as

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saying no no there's no basis for this

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or very little basis for this it is just

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simply a creative spark that you would

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pursue if you had more time and more

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resources yeah there are many such

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things as you know I think that AG when

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it is attained will not be attained by

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throwing masses of computer power at it

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I think it will be able to use a to help

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it just as humans do but my guess is if

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I knew how I could write the program on

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my computer today that would be an AGI

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but I just don't know how but I do have

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some wild ideas that you know probably

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won't be true that if I had infinite

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time I would be switching to Mathematica

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and I'd be writing some of those PR

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programs and see what happens and and S

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of throw creativity at it rather than

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throw computer power at it by the way

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that that makes me rather wary of these

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proposals to regulate AGI because if AGI

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doesn't need actually all this huge

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computer power then those regulations

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would prevent me using my own computer

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for the thing I want to work on and

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that's one thing so with creativity I

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think that the another of my wild ideas

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is that that you could do much better at

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automating music at making say new

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Mozart things if you didn't insist that

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they were like the old ones like you

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know if if Mozart was alive his next

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great work would not be within the space

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that an AI can synthesize from all his

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existing works it would be new in a

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creative way so I would want to say make

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a computer program the conjectures what

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the problem situation is what is it that

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Mozart was trying to do why is it that

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he has this amazing ability to make a

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tune that sort of meshes with all sorts

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of other considerations and that ends up

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working like if I try and say whistle a

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tune with random notes or play random

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notes on the piano I'm very quickly

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going to get into a situation where I

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can't go on because the next thing is

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going to sound bad I mean there isn't in

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order to make it sound good I'd have to

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go back and change something earlier so

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an AI trying to do this would be able to

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do like chat GPT and go back earlier and

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correct its theory of what it is about

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the existing works that's good but I

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don't want to write something that's

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like that's good in the same sense as

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the existing works I want to create a

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new idea which probably you know if we

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go back to the real case if Mozart wrote

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something that people said wow you know

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he's really excelled himself this time I

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think the thing he produced would be

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recognizably mozar but also recognizably

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different and I think that's creativity

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you know uh when Newton submitted his

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solution of the bistone problem

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anonymously one of those people just oh

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well it's Newton you know we recognize

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the lion by his claw well yeah you're

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recognizing him by his claw but he's

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produced a new proof that nobody had

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ever seen before so another thing is I

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think the pattern oh well before I say

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the pattern as I say in my book I think

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there's a tremendous amount of knowledge

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of of History to be obtained by

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historians if they focus on the history

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of optimism I think you know historians

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haven't had this concept so they haven't

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like directed their attention I guess

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that Florence and ancient Athens were

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sort of powered by optimism but I you

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know I I don't know much about history

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and I also conjecture that there are

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many other cases that are not as

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spectacular that were also like that so

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there's one final topic I been want to

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discuss with you but I don't even have

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it well formed but I'll throw out a few