Pioneers: May-Li Khoe

Notion Pioneers
20 May 202153:13

Summary

TLDRこのエピソードは、デザインと技術の融合を探求するシリーズ「パイオニアーズ」の第6回。ゲストはMaylie Kuで、彼女はプロトタイピング、ダンス、DJ、グリッター、工学を愛し、世界との新しい相互作用方法を作り出すデザイナー。Appleでの経験からKhan AcademyのデザインVPまで、そして最近はVirtual World「Makespace」の共同創設者。会話の核心は、身体性とデザインの関係、感情とデザインの相互作用、そしてデジタル空間でのコミュニケーションの未来についての洞察です。

Takeaways

  • 🎶 メイリー・クーはプロトタイピング、ダンス、DJ、キラキラ、そしてエンジニアリングを愛し、新しい対話の方法を作り出すデザイナーです。
  • 📱 メイリーはAppleで初代iPhoneやForce Touchを開発するチームの一員でした。
  • 🏫 メイリーはKhan AcademyのデザインVPを務め、教育の未来可能性を探る長期研究グループを共同設立しました。
  • 🌐 メイリーは最近、多数のコラボレーターと共に、Zoomのようなビデオチャットツールの矩形を革新的に変えるvirtual world「Makespace」を立ち上げました。
  • 💃 メイリーのダンスの情熱は、彼女のデザイン思考に大きな影響を与え、インタラクションとアニメーションのデザインに身体的な要素を取り入れています。
  • 🎭 メイリーは、スペーシャルインタフェースの会話において、空間性がどのように展開するかについて議論し、ダンスやパフォーマンスにおける舞台上の動きや遷移をデザインに取り入れています。
  • 🚀 メイリーは、インタラクションデザインにおいて物体がどのように動くかについて多くの考えをし、重くても軽くても、それが页面上の動きやそれらがどのように関連するかを考慮に入れる重要性を述べました。
  • 🌟 メイリーは、デザインにおける感情の重要性を強調し、ユーザーが製品を使い始める前に感情的なつながりがあると感じられるデザインを目指しています。
  • 📚 メイリーは、教育において視覚的なデザインと創造的指向を重要視し、学生が楽しい学習体験をすることが教育の目的の一部であると感じています。
  • 🌍 メイリーは、デジタルメディアにおいて文化的な反応や臨場感をどのように取り入れ、それらを反映する方法について考えています。
  • 🔍 メイリーは、デザインプロセスにおいて注意深く、そして意図的なアプローチを重要視し、成功するデザインに導くために小さな選択肢から大きなループまでをカバーする構造を提案しています。

Q & A

  • Maylie Kuがデザインとエンジニアリングを統合し、新しいインタラクションの方法を考案する上で、ダンスやDJなど彼女の趣味はどのように影響を与えていますか?

    -Maylie Kuは、ダンスやDJなど彼女の趣味を通じて、物体の動きや空間性について深い理解を持っています。例えば、Appleで働いていた時に制作した最初のiPhoneのエディットアプリの画面アニメーションは、太多にヒップシェイクを伴うタヒチアンダンスに似ていたと語っています。彼女は、趣味を通じて得た这种感觉をデザインに取り入れ、インタラクションのアニメーションや移動を考案する際に、より自然で魅力的な動きを提供しています。

  • Maylie KuがKhan AcademyでデザインVPを務めている時、教育の未来についてどのように探求しましたか?

    -Maylie KuはKhan AcademyでデザインVPを務めている時、教育の未来について探求するために、長期研究グループを共同設立しました。彼女は、教育の可能性を最大限に引き出し、学習体験をより魅力的かつ効果的にするための潜在的な将来の方向性を探求していました。彼女の取り組みは、学習体験をより学生に合わせたものにし、学生が単なる知識の受信側ではなく、学習プロセスに積極的に関与するように工夫することで、教育の将来をより明るく、希望に満ちたものに変えることを目指していました。

  • Maylie KuがMaylspaceという仮想世界を立ち上げた背景にはどのような意図がありましたか?

    -Maylie Kuが立ち上げたMaylspaceは、現在のビデオチャットツール如いZoomのような矩形の画面の中でのコミュニケーションを刷新することを目的としています。Maylspaceは、ユーザーに対して空間的な自由度を提供し、仮想空間でのコミュニケーションや協力を楽しむことができるようにすることで、オンラインでの交流をより富人化することを目指しています。Maylspaceの開発には、遠隔地での知識労働が主流となった現代の状況下で、オンライン空間をより人間味あく、創造的な文化を育むことが重要であるという考えが込められています。

  • Maylie Kuがデザイン思考において重要視する「物体の動き」において、どのようにして重いものと軽いものを見分けるか?

    -Maylie Kuは、物体の動きにおいて、その重さを感じるかどうかによって重いものと軽いものを見分けます。例えば、何かを削除する際には、その行為が「重い」ものであるため、実際にの操作も「重い」感じ shouldBe すると考えています。一方、問題が大してないようなシンプルなレイアウトの変更は、軽い感じ shouldBe すると考えています。Maylieは、UIがその操作の結果を反映し、何が起こるかについて明確に示すべきだと考えており、そのために物体の動きや遷移が重要だとemphasis しています。

  • Maylie KuがAppleで働いていた時、Force Touchを発明した際の考えとは何でしたか?

    -Maylie KuはAppleで働いていた時、Force Touchを発明しました。彼女は、直感的なタッチインターフェースを提供することで、ユーザーがより自然な方法でデバイスとインタラクションできるようにするという考えを持っていました。Force Touchは、ユーザーがスクリーンに触れる力强弱によって、デバイスからの反応を変える技術です。これにより、ユーザーは細かい操作や強調など、より高度な機能を使用できるようになり、より豊かな操作体験を提供するものです。

  • Maylie Kuがデザインに取り組む際に、どのようにして失敗や問題を解決するか?

    -Maylie Kuは、デザインに取り組む際に、問題や失敗に対処する際には、まず問題を明確に認識し、その問題を解決するための方法を探し求めることが重要だと考えています。彼女は、問題解決に向けて、継続的に注意力を集中し、解決策を模索することで、問題を改善していくことが可能です。Maylieはまた、失敗を恐れず、失敗を通じて学ぶことができると信じており、失敗を回避するのではなく、失敗から学び、改善することで、より良いデザインを生み出すことができます。

  • Maylie Kuがデザインにおいて重視する「感情」とは何ですか?

    -Maylie Kuがデザインにおいて重視する「感情」とは、ユーザーが製品やサービスを使用する際に感じるエモーションや心情です。彼女は、デザインが単に機能的であるだけでなく、ユーザーの感情にも影響を与えると信じています。例えば、ユーザーが喜びや興奮を感じることを促すデザインは、ユーザーの体験をより充実させ、ユーザーが製品やサービスをより好意的に感じることができるようにします。Maylieは、デザインがユーザーの感情を考慮に入れることで、ユーザーとの関係をより深め、ユーザーのニーズや欲求に応えることができると考えています。

  • Maylie Kuが言及した「第三の場所」とは何を指しますか?

    -Maylie Kuが言及した「第三の場所」とは、家や職場を除いた第三の場所を指します。これは、人々の交流や相互作用が生まれる場所であり、例えばカフェや公園、図書館などが該当します。Maylieは、現在のデジタル環境ではこの「第三の場所」が欠けていると感じており、Maylspaceの開発でもこのような空間を再現することを目指しています。彼女は、このような第三の場所が、人間関係を豊かにし、より自然な交流を促進する役割を持っていると強調しています。

  • Maylie Kuがデザインチームで働く際に重要視した要素は何ですか?

    -Maylie Kuはデザインチームで働く際に、最も重要視した要素はチームメンバーの創造性と表現の自由度だと述べています。彼女は、デザインチームのメンバーが自分の意見を自由に表現し、創造的なアイデアを提供できる環境を作り出すことが重要だと考えています。また、彼女は教育の分野においても、視覚的なデザインとイラストレーションの重要性を強調しており、教育の品質を向上させるために、美しいデザインを提供することが必要です。

  • Maylie KuがMaylspaceでの実験的なアプローチの成果はどのようなものですか?

    -Maylie KuがMaylspaceでの実験的なアプローチは、仮想空間でのコミュニケーションの新たな方法を模索する際の刺激を提供するという成果があります。Maylspaceは、ユーザーが空間を自在に操作し、雰囲気を作り出すことができるインタラクションを提供することで、ビデオチャットの標準的な形式を刷新しています。また、Maylieは、Maylspaceの実験を通じて、ユーザーが仮想空間をより自然で愉悦に利用する方法について学ぶことができました。

  • Maylie Kuがデザインに取り組む際のアプローチはどのように変化しましたか?

    -Maylie Kuのデザインアプローチは、職業経験を積むにつれて変化しています。Appleで働いていた時、彼女は技術的な面に重点を置いて、革新的な製品を作り出すことを目指していました。一方、Khan AcademyやMaylspaceでの取り組みでは、ユーザーの感情や体験を重視し、デザインがユーザーの生活にどのように影響を与えるかを考慮するようになりました。彼女の現在のアプローチは、デザインがユーザーのニーズを満たし、感情を豊かにするものであることを重視しています。

Outlines

00:00

🎙️イントロダクションとメイリー・クーの紹介

このエピソードは、コンピュータ技術の発展に貢献したデザイナー、エンジニア、発明家との対話シリーズ「パイオニアーズ」の第6回目です。メイリー・クーは、プロトタイピング、ダンス、DJ、きらめくデザイン、工学に情熱を注ぎ、新しいメディアを手中に持つことで開かれる可能性を捉える眼を持つデザイナーです。メイリーはAppleで初代iPhoneやForce Touchを開発し、Khan AcademyのデザインVPを務め、教育の未来について探求する研究グループを共同設立しました。最近、コラボレーターたちと共に、ビデオチャットツールのZoomなどの矩形を革新的に変えるvirtual world「Makespace」を立ち上げました。

05:01

💃メイリーの身体性とデザインへの影響

メイリーの身体性は、彼女のデザインの考え方と大きな影響を与えています。彼女はダンスを通じて、スクリーン上のアプリの動きやエディットアプリのアニメーションをデザインしています。メイリーは、ダンスやパフォーマンスにおける動きや舞台の入り口、退場、最終幕の流れが、彼女のデザイン仕事にも影響を与えていると語っています。

10:02

🎭メイリーのデザイン哲学とMakespace

メイリーは、物体がページ上でどのように移動し、互いにどのように関係するかについて考える際、重いものや軽いもの、移動しやすくないものなど、重要な次元を考えています。Makespaceは、オンラインでのコミュニケーションを革新的なものにし、通常のビデオチャットツールとは異なる新しい方法で時間を共有できる場所を提供しています。Makespaceの価値観は、人間味を強め、オンラインでの時間を過ごす際に、より親しみやすく、ケアと創造文化を促進することにあります。

15:03

🤖VRとUI/UXデザインの課題

メイリーは、VRが理論上は直感的であるべきであるにもかかわらず、実際の経験では期待外れであることが多かったと述べています。VRの技術的な問題や、ハードウェアの分裂、経済的なインセンティブの不足など、多くの要素がUI/UXデザインの進歩を阻害していると見なされています。

20:05

🌟パイオニアーズのProvocationと将来の展望

メイリーは、パイオニアーズが多くの人々に刺激を与えたと感じており、新しい発展が期待されています。しかし、Makespaceはまだ公開されていないと述べ、現在のプロトタイプ段階に留まっています。メイリーは、Makespaceが5年後に何地处するのか、どのように使われるかを明確には言えていないが、その空間が人々に共有され、最も必要な人々によって使用されることを望んでいます。

25:06

🎨感情とデザインの結びつき

メイリーは、デザイン時に感情を考慮することが重要であると強調しています。デザインは、人々が学ぶことや話すこと、製品について感じることに影響を与えるため、デザインが単にデータのアップロード先ではなく、感情を引き出すものであることが重要です。メイリーは、自分のデザインで取り組んだいくつかの感情的な要素を举例しています。

30:07

🌈学びと教育のデザイン

メイリーは、学ぶプロセス全体において、注意を集中させることの重要性を述べています。学ぶことで、失敗やコミュニケーションの困難さといった感情的な側面があるため、デザインは単に知識を提供するだけではなく、学習プロセス全体に関与しています。メイリーは、教育のデザインにおいて、学生が感じることを重要視し、デザインが学びのプロセス全体にどのように影響するかを考慮するべきだと述べています。

35:07

💡デザインの注意と細部へのこだわり

メイリーは、デザインにおける細部へのこだわりが、ユーザーが製品を使用する際の体験に影響を与えると語っています。デザインの細部に注力することで、ユーザーが製品にどのように反応するかを理解し、改善することができると考えています。メイリーは、Appleのデザインや自己のデザインプロジェクトで行った細部へのこだわりの例を挙げ、それがどのようにユーザー体験に影響を与えたかを説明しています。

Mindmap

Keywords

💡インタラクションデザイン

インタラクションデザインとは、ユーザーと製品やサービスとの接点を考慮してデザインを行う方法です。この動画では、Maylie KuがダンスやDJなど自分の興味を融合させ、インタラクションデザインに独特のアプローチを与えることを見せました。例えば、Appleのエディットアプリの画面アニメーションがタヒチアンダンスに似ていることや、空間的なUI要素の動きがダンスの動きと関連していることが挙げられています。

💡プロトタイピング

プロトタイピングは、製品やサービスの初期段階で実験的なモデルを作成し、その機能性やデザインを検証するプロセスです。Maylie Kuはプロトタイピングを通じて、新しいメディアが持つ可能性を探求し、インタラクティブな世界との新しい方法を創造しています。例えば、AppleでのForce Touchの発明や、Khan Academyの教育の未来を探る研究グループの設立などが彼女のプロトタイピングの成果として挙げられます。

💡メタファー

メタファーとは、複雑な概念やアイデアを理解するための簡潔で視覚的にわかりやすい表現です。この動画で言及された「メタファー」は、Maylie Kuがデザイン概念を説明するために使用した言葉です。例えば、「舞台でのパフォーマンス」を通じてUI要素の動きや空間的な関係性を説明する際に使用されました。

💡デジタルメディア

デジタルメディアとは、デジタル技術を用いて作られた媒体のことで、コンピュータやスマートフォン、デジタルTVなどを通じて消費されるコンテンツを指します。この動画では、Maylie Kuがデジタルメディアを通じて教育やコミュニケーションの新しい形を模索していることが示されています。例えば、Khan AcademyのデザインVP時代の活動や、最近発足したバーチャルワールド「Makespace」などがその例です。

💡教育

教育とは、知識やスキルを習得させるプロセスです。この動画では、Maylie Kuが教育に対する她的と新しいアプローチを探求していることが示されています。特に、彼女が共同設立したKhan Academyの研究グループでは、教育の未来について調査し、従来の教育モデルを超えた創造的な方法を模索していました。

💡VR

VRは、仮想現実(Virtual Reality)の略で、コンピュータ技術を用いて作られる人工的な体験を提供する技術です。この動画では、Maylie KuがVR技術の可能性に興味を持っており、その不整合性や課題について言及しています。例えば、VRが理論的には直感的であるべきであるが、実際の導入においては技術的な問題や経済的なインセンティブの欠如などで困難が生じることがあるという点が挙げられています。

💡ユーザーエクスペリエンス

ユーザーエクスペリエンスとは、ユーザーが製品やサービスを利用する際の体験の質を指します。この動画では、Maylie Kuがデザインプロセスにおいてユーザーの感情や感覚を重視し、それらがユーザーエクスペリエンスにどのように影響するかについて議論しています。例えば、删除操作が実際に重い感じ shouldBe heavy に反映され、それによってユーザーが操作の重要性を理解するといった例が挙げられています。

💡コラボレーション

コラボレーションとは、複数の人々が力を合わせてプロジェクトを進めるプロセスです。この動画では、Maylie Kuがコラボレーションを通じて新しいアイデアやインノベーションを生み出すことを好んでいることが示されています。例えば、Makespaceというバーチャルワールドを共同で創設したことが該当します。また、彼女の活動には、他者との協働が欠かせない部分があり、そのような活動がどのようにコラボレーションに寄与するかが説明されています。

💡デジタルインタフェース

デジタルインタフェースとは、コンピュータやデジタルデバイスとの間で情報をやり取りするためのメカニズムや方法を指します。この動画では、Maylie Kuがデジタルインタフェースに関連するデザインの重要性を強調しています。特に、彼女が取り組んだプロジェクトでは、ユーザーがデジタルインタフェースを通じて世界とインタラクトする方法を革新的に行ったことが述べられています。

💡創造性

創造性とは、新しいアイデアを生み出す能力や、既存のアイデアを新しい方法で使用する能力を指します。この動画では、Maylie Kuが自分の創造性を最大限に活かしてデザインに取り組むことが強調されています。例えば、彼女のデザインプロセスでは、ダンスやDJなどのパフォーマンスアートがインタラクションデザインに影響を与える独特のアプローチを提供しています。

💡フィードバック

フィードバックとは、ある行動や結果に対する意見や评论を指します。この動画では、Maylie Kuがフィードバックを重視し、デザインプロセスにおいてユーザーの意見を反映させることが重要であると述べられています。しかし、彼女の経験から、フィードバックは常に受け入れるわけではなく、時には自分の直感や洞察に基づくデザインも重要であると強調しています。

Highlights

Maylie Ku's multifaceted background in design, prototyping, dancing, DJing, and engineering has led to innovative approaches in interaction design.

Her work on the first iPhone and inventing Force Touch at Apple showcases her ability to integrate physicality and emotion into technology.

Maylie's experience as VP of Design at Khan Academy and co-founding their long-term research group highlights her commitment to exploring potential futures of education.

Makespace, a virtual world she launched, aims to transform the dry, rectangular format of video chat tools into a spatial and enjoyable experience.

The concept of embodied thinking in design is exemplified by Maylie's approach to interactions and animations, drawing from her love for dancing.

The importance of spatial interfaces and the flow of performance work, such as entrances and exits on stage, influence Maylie's设计理念.

Maylie emphasizes the need for UI elements to make sense in terms of movement, placement, and transitions, reflecting a deep understanding of user interaction.

The balance between heavy and light elements in UI design should reflect the significance and ease of user actions, such as deleting content.

Maylie's heuristic for design involves considering the physicality and emotional impact of interactions, aiming for a UI that reflects the outcomes of user actions.

The challenge of creating a 'vibe' in digital spaces, as opposed to physical ones, is a central focus in Maylie's work on Makespace.

Maylie discusses the importance of design in creating mental models for users, helping them understand how different elements of a product fit together.

Her experience with Japanese stationery and Apple design highlights the emotional connection and care that can be instilled in products through meticulous design.

Maylie's work at Khan Academy reflects her emphasis on visual design, creativity, and the need for educational tools to feel inviting and fun.

The conversation touches on the importance of attention and intention in learning and design, and how focusing on these aspects can lead to significant improvements.

Maylie shares her approach to life and work, which involves setting overarching goals, creating structures to track progress, and allowing for flexibility and creativity.

The discussion highlights the need for a balance between intuition and user testing in design, drawing from Maylie's experiences at different organizations.

Maylie's method of prototyping involves gathering related materials, starting with small steps, and gradually building up to a more complex prototype.

The conversation concludes with Maylie's thoughts on the importance of valuing both the creative process and the structure needed to ensure that actions align with long-term goals.

Transcripts

play00:03

hello

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i'm devin and you're listening to the

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sixth episode of pioneers

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an ongoing series of conversations with

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the designers engineers and inventors

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who shaped computing as we know it a

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quick housekeeping note

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you're probably familiar with the show

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by its original name tools and craft

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that name has now expanded to refer to

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notion's entire blog

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which is coincidentally where you can

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find all past and future episodes of

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this series

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pioneers so today i'm floored to be

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talking to maylie ku

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maylie is a designer and she has tightly

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integrated her loves of prototyping

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dancing djing glitter and engineering

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into making

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all sorts of novel ways of interacting

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with the world

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she has an especially sharp eye for

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recognizing the opportunities that open

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up when you have new mediums in your

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hands

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melee has worked on too many cool things

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for me to list them all

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so here's just a tiny sampler while

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melee

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was at apple she worked on the first

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iphone and she was also part of the team

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that invented force touch among

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many other things later she was the vp

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of design at khan academy and co-founded

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their long-term research group

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where she explored what potential

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futures of education might be

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and just in this last year she launched

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a virtual world called makespace with a

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number of collaborators

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which takes the dry boring rectangle

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that zoom and other video chat tools

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take for granted

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and instead turns it on its head and

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makes hanging out with friends or

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collaborating with people in virtual

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space

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spatial and fun so melee thank you so

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much for taking the time to have this

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conversation

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hello thank you thank you so much for

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having me

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i've been really really looking forward

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to this uh because this hits a bunch of

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my

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favorite topics and also i just wanted

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to hang out with you more for a long

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time so

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this is going to be a blast yeah awesome

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yeah totally so so one of the themes

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that

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has really jumped out at me from

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studying your work

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and from talking to you is just how

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embodied your thinking is

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you have a lifelong love for dancing and

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that seems to have had a huge

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impact on the way you design

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interactions and animations for example

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you've talked about how the apple edit

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app screen animation is a lot like a

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tahitian dance

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with that has a lot of hip shaking in it

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if anyone has no idea what i'm talking

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about

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if you have an iphone or an ipad and you

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like go to try to edit your your home

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screen of apps

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you'll see that your app's like chic and

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you can kind of imagine hips way so

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i'm really curious like how have you

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involved the physicality of our bodies

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into interaction design like the first

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thing that jumps into my mind is just

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having conversations with people about

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how things should move

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i don't know if this happens to other

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people but just having these actual

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movements like dancing out with my hands

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or my arms how

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things should move or be arranged in the

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screen you know it's something that you

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wind up losing

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when you've got a bunch of static mocks

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and you're not having face-to-face

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conversations with each other but i

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would say it's definitely permeated in

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that way and just just the way that i

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talk or think about things

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and sort of similarly to that i think

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the entire conversation about spatial

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interfaces and how spatiality

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plays out for both ui elements winds up

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coming into play because as a dancer

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or as a performer you think about how

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you get on stage what you do when you

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get on stage what happens when you're

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going off the stage how you go off stage

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you know what does a finale look like

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what does the introduction look like

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there's

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there's a flow to doing um performance

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work

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uh as a dancer as well as the movement

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itself and i think all of that plays

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into the work right

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like how does an element appear to you

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on the screen what do those transitions

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look like

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do they make sense you know where does

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the thing go when you're not looking at

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it

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i think a lot of that that's probably

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played out in my work

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almost in a way that it's like i

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i don't even know that i'm thinking

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about it

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um but it's definitely jumped out a lot

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when i wind up miming stuff in

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conversations with other people

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that's probably when i notice it the

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most i'm like oh yeah

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i guess i'm kind of dancing through this

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i love that concept of performance i

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think

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my background is engineering and i've

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gotten more into the product design

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space in the last few years and

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when i had my like pure engineering hat

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on i was very much focused on like

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what just like what are we trying to

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achieve on the page okay does the page

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show that okay cool we're done

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whereas like that idea of you know

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what's what does the entrance look like

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what does how does someone get

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introduced to this thing

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how does information leave the page when

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you're going to the next piece and

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that's incredibly important for them to

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understand how the pieces fit together

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as opposed to this like big abstract

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concept which can

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it can be hard to build like a mental

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model of what's going on with a product

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if you if you don't have all of those

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things tied together

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yeah i think i think related to that is

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also uh there's the mental model

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and then there's there's the like does

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the motion make sense

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aspect of it like do you want this to be

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a heavy thing or a light thing

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should it be easily movable should it

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not be easily movable like where is it

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coming from

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and also like is this pleasant

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anyway those are all questions that wind

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up coming up for me when i think about

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like how things move on a page and how

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they relate to each other

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those are really interesting dimensions

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to think about what's your heuristic for

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deciding whether or not something should

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be heavy versus light or easy to move

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versus

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hard to move i mean ideally and we

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haven't gotten here

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yet when it comes to interaction and

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design but like ideally

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a thing that's going to have

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ramifications that are heavy for you

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like deleting something should actually

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feel heavy

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while it's something that's just like

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not that big of a deal like just maybe

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rearranging things for example like

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that shouldn't feel heavy so i feel like

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it should

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uh ideally ui like reflects the way that

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you interact with it reflects something

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about

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what's going to happen as a result you

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know it's kind of the equivalent of like

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are you sure you want to delete

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everything like

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it's kind of funny how like is just it's

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so easy to type but

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it should actually feel like lead you

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know

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yeah wow

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that's a great point you you were

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talking about how um

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now that everyone's basically remote

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almost all all the time when doing

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knowledge work

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with some exceptions of course it's sort

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of changed the way that we can

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communicate with people when we work

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with them um

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as you've been working on makespace

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which also like leans into that paradigm

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of you know being being on the screen um

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well actually before i ask this question

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can you describe what makes spaces to to

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our audience well so makespace is a

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couple of things from an interaction

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standpoint it's an entirely new way of

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spending time together online

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where you know you break out of the

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little tiny

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static rectangles that we're mostly

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locked into

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and you can actually have control over

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creating a whole vibe and

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move around while you communicate

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and spend time with other people and

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then sort of at the at the next level of

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meta

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the sort of the values behind it were

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are all

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about how to further humanize and create

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care

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and create spaces that are amenable to

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care and caring culture um and creative

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creative culture while spending time

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together online

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so i guess like another way of putting

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it would be a lot of the time when we

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spend together

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uh spend time together online it feels

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about

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as cozy as a corporate conference room

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how about

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instead we create spaces where

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uh we actually want to be in them with

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people we care about and

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are excited to go back uh and make them

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feel like ours

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so yeah i really like that i mean why is

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it so hard to make a vibe

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in in zoom um

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there's a couple things it's like you

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don't actually

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the space doesn't exist it's almost as

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if

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you were walking in an infinite white

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plain right and then you came across a

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bunch of people for a second

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and every time one of you talked to

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everybody clustered and all looked at

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you

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including one person holding a mirror so

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that you're looking at yourself

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and and then that's all there is and as

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soon as the conversation is over

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you all disappear into that infinite you

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know plane of white space

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well as if you think about the way that

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we gather in real life

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you know there's the choice of where you

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spend time

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and all of the choices that go into how

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that place is arranged and how you

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interact

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into it those are all design choices

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that you're not making any sort of close

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parallel to when you're in a place like

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zoom

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i'll say this as as having been a dj one

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of the things that really irritates me

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is when people set up a dance floor and

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they push

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all the chairs to the outside of the

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room facing in right

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it makes it so hard to start a dance

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party because everybody's

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looking at the dance floor and so you

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know

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what the la and what's the lighting

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right if you keep the lights all the way

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up a lot of times people are more

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self-conscious you know where's the door

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where the speakers where's the dj like

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all of those types of things are things

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that you think about as a person who

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throws events

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and then as a person who attends things

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or like if you and i were gonna go hang

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out i would

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i would think about okay like well what

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is appropriate for like you and i to go

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um spend time in is it gonna be like a

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park is it going to be

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i don't know the children's museum is it

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going to be

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a zoo or a cafe and if it is a cafe

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which cafe

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depending on what we're going to be

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doing you know there's just like a

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million tiny choices of

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atmosphere and arrangement inside that

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atmosphere

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that go into our actual human

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interactions when you know it's not in

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the middle of a pandemic

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so when we spend time online suddenly

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all that stuff is stripped away

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and we're left with yeah the equivalent

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of

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a corporate conference conference room

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and it's sad

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i really feel that i think a lot of

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people i know

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say that it's just really awkward to

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talk to people on zoom even a lot of

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people that you really care about like i

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found it find it almost like awkward to

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talk to my mom on zoom and

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i've known my mom my whole life and i i

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think

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you're on something here where like it

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strips away all of the affordances that

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a space gives you

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like if i if i invite you to um

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afternoon tea versus to like

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drinks at 11 pm you know both situations

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are pretty similar in a lot of ways

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but just by inviting you to one versus

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the other it's like sending a different

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signal of

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you know the kind of experience that i'm

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looking to have with you

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and with zoom you can do a little bit of

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that by saying like

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bring your red wine or bring your bring

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your tea

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um but it's not like the whole place

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doesn't sort of

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bend itself to trying to

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create that vibe you get a completely

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different vibe

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depending on where you're inviting

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someone

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one like if you're inviting them to a

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wine bar at 11 p.m

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versus at tea time at like 2 p.m you're

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going to get a completely different

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experience and

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you know even the the waiter is going to

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serve you really differently

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and the the music in the space is going

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to encourage you like

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in the wine bar it might be really loud

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and so you have to lean in and you get

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like physically closer

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versus like a quiet t it has like

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peaceful piano in the background or

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something like that and

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you have a very different kind of like

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wholesome whimsical experience maybe

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and zoom like you you could do that i

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think it's not impossible to create it

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but zoom does not help you at all right

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yeah yep yep and and kind of getting

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back to

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something that we were talking about

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earlier um you know as a dancer thinking

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about how i get on stage how you get off

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stage i remember at a really early age

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the teacher being like

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a certain people in the audience can

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still see you like out in the wings

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so um you know make sure that you keep

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dancing until you're like

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all the way off all the way through the

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wings you know that type of thing

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and that also applies with social

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interactions right what are the wings

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for uh web design like what's sort of

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the

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the analogy analogy there

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oh um i guess like a really easy version

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of the wings

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um the wings are useful in in

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interface design because if you

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deliberately have a little bit of

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whatever

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things in the quote unquote wings

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peeking out that's how people that are

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going to use the thing know that there's

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more stuff there

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so that's when you sort of like in a

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list view for example

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you deliberately um design the line

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height for

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the majority of people being able to see

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some cut off last element so that they

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know there's more

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for example or if you've got i don't

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know if your page is

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500 units tall and there's gonna be five

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there's gonna be more than five elements

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in it then maybe you

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want to make sure that each of the

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elements is less than 100 elements

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units tall so that there's something

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peaking at the bottom so that people

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know that there's more that that's what

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i would think of as kind of the

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waiting in the digital wings that makes

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sense yeah like a lot of menu bars have

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that too of

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like being just just out of sight but

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you can kind of like turn your head

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metaphorically to see it yeah yeah yeah

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we've played with other stuff too with

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like face detection and parallax and

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operating systems none of that stuff has

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ever stuck

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but you know you could imagine doing

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that where you sort of move your head to

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the right side of the screen and some

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stuff peeks in or you move your head to

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the left and you see some stuff peeking

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on the right hand side but

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you know there's been a bunch of

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experiments with things like that over

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the years from different places but i

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don't know we'll see if it ever happens

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there's a lot of cool stuff uh that's

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possible with

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ui design operating design operating

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system design that just like

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a lot of it doesn't wind up happening

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because it's like splintering of

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hardware or there's like lack of

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economic incentives to actually do that

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cool thing

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the mapping too kind of can be really

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tricky i think like

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from a theoretical level i would expect

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vr to be extremely intuitive

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but when i put on a vr headset and i

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like turn to the right

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something is off like it's not turning

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like quite

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correctly and so it like doesn't quite

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miss

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there's a mismatch between what i would

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see in the quote unquote real world

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versus the virtual world

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and so that might just be a technical

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problem i'm not sure i haven't

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looked into it too much but i imagine

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there's some of those disconnects where

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like

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conceptually it's sound but practically

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the implementations that

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currently exist are make it kind of not

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that useful

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i am optimistic that vr can actually fix

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that for the record but

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it's it just hasn't done that yet in my

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opinion mm-hmm

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yeah this stuff it can be tricky to get

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stuff right um

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yeah and and tricky to make it worth it

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as far as like how much

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work it needs to be put into

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implementing and testing and

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making accessible and all of the things

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that happen when you actually ship a

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real product

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totally yeah which i should mention that

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um

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all of the stuff that you know make

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space it exists

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right now not as like a shipped public

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version it's something that you know we

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had spent a bunch of time in

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playing in like a first-stage prototype

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and a second stage prototype but

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i think more than anything that initial

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thing that we put out in the world last

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year was like a provocation

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and it seems like it succeeded in doing

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that like a lot of i think a lot of

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people have drawn inspiration from it

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i'm excited about

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having provoked new things to have

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happened

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but i want to be clear in case anybody's

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listening is like why am i not using it

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right now

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that's why because it's not like a

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launch thing

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where would you like it to be in in five

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years how would you like people to use

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it

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i would love for it to feel sort of

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co-owned by the people that need it and

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use it most

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but we'll see what happens it's it's own

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little beast and um

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it's been pretty organic so far so we'll

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see what happens

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i also really like what you said about

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um having the space be sort of

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persistent

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sort of beyond the people themselves

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where like

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you create this thing that you can come

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back to and it's like a place you go to

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as opposed to something like a zoom

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video chat which is

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like you know i have my personal meeting

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room or whatever

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and you should kind of only go to my

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personal meeting room if i'm there

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it's not like a place you would want to

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go to if i wasn't there

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whereas you could have another more of a

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public space like a library where you

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might want to go

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hang out with people or you might go and

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read by yourself you might meet

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strangers

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and there's a little bit more

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serendipity that happens

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in those situations i think because the

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thing that connects you is the space

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as opposed to a person who had to like

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make a plan and and

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you know bring people in i think that's

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part of the reason that house party

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was so popular to the point where

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it stopped being reliable at the

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beginning of lockdown

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about a year ago yeah so what was

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interesting about that

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thing is that like once you were sort of

play16:49

present

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people hopped in and out there was like

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a lot more spontaneous kind of like

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getting together

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and not sort of being present and

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available or not being present

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like other people that you knew being

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able to hang out as opposed to this like

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very formal like okay i'm going to send

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you a link and we're going to hop in now

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i think that's like another dimension of

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this stuff that doesn't get talked about

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as much as like the sort of spontaneous

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third place like you were saying like

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i'm just i'm here because it's

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place versus i'm going to your face

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when it's there

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i guess there's that term right the

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third place which is not home

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and it's not work it's this other place

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where people spend time

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and and we're lacking that right now and

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we don't really have that in

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in the digital realm so it would be cool

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if it was that

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and and it'd be even cooler if it was a

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place like you know what we'd propose

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with makespace that

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um you could rearrange the furniture or

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like

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break off into different little clusters

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very organically

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or like walk around very organically

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instead of

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being locked essentially strapped to

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your conference room chair

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what have you been using for your third

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space in the last year like what's been

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sort of filling that that gap oh man i

play18:07

don't feel like i have one

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for a little while at the beginning of

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the pandemic like we were trying to do

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that with house party

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where there was like sort of an ambient

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presence and people could kind of like

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hop in and hop out

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ish and that was a spot but

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i haven't really felt like i've had that

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at all

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like nothing close to it when you say we

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uh is it like a group of friends

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is it your family uh who are colleagues

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both friends and family and that was

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like yeah that was a year ago it was a

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short experiment

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yeah i guess since then probably like

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using our makespace prototype

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i should mention that uh waywaysu is

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really spearheading it

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right now so as far as like where it

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goes in the future i think

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we will see where it winds up going but

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um but makespace is a place where i've

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spent time with other people and we've

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you can drag in an animated gif of a

play18:58

bonfire which we did

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and then we all brought in a bunch of

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little transparent

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marshmallows on sticks and held them

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over them

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that's so cute gathered little seats

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around it and

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yeah it was it was it's been it's been

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cool to see how people wind up using it

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even though it's not open or anything i

play19:16

should say but yeah

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yeah at the beginning of the pandemic it

play19:20

did feel like

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there was a lot of energy where people

play19:22

realized like oh man i'm it's gonna be

play19:24

really hard to

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be around the people i care about for a

play19:27

long time so i'm gonna experiment with a

play19:28

lot of things

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um i certainly felt that way but then a

play19:32

few months in

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i just lost steam like it kind of

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stopped being exciting so much and more

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just being like sad

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for me yeah um yeah but at the same time

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i think like i had a lot of really good

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adventures with friends like we went to

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um

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minecraft disneyland which was a blast

play19:51

i actually went with a group of friends

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who like a month before the pandemic

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started we had actually gone to

play19:56

disneyland together and so then we went

play19:58

back to minecraft disneyland and like

play20:00

went on all the same rides

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um that was amazing um

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and we also tried a bunch of a bunch of

play20:08

like virtual spaces

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that each were awkward in their own

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special way

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and you know it was actually pretty fun

play20:15

to be able to

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to explore all of these um but yeah

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after after some time

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it's like you're kind of i i'm staring

play20:22

at my computer all day long already so

play20:24

and i actually love my computer a lot

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but

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at the end of the day i was like you

play20:28

know what i'd rather just go for a walk

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by myself

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um because i need to use my body somehow

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yeah i wonder how it's all going to go

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when people are able to

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go out back outside much more often and

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be around each other

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whether or not actually everybody's

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going to be like i really don't want to

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be in front of my screen like a second

play20:47

longer than i need to

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i wonder how long that'll last yeah my

play20:51

prediction is that we're gonna get the

play20:52

roaring 20s again

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everyone's going to go wild with like

play20:56

costumes and

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like crazy parties i think like not

play21:00

everybody

play21:01

but uh i think that's going to be it's

play21:04

going to be wild

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yep i believe it i'm feeling that too i

play21:08

feel like people are already egging it

play21:09

on

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they're like oh like buy your sequin

play21:12

stuff now because

play21:13

it's going to happen another theme

play21:16

that's really jumped out at me from your

play21:17

work

play21:18

uh is the idea that when we design

play21:20

things for people we really have to pay

play21:21

attention to

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how it makes them feel they're not just

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like empty vessels where you can like up

play21:26

upload data into them because that's

play21:28

just not that's not how it works we we

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have

play21:31

feelings about what we're what we're

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learning about who we're talking about

play21:35

what you ate for lunch it can like

play21:37

probably affect the way you feel about a

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product

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um so what are decisions that you've

play21:42

made that were sort of

play21:44

what you would probably consider

play21:45

atypical that other designers might not

play21:47

have made

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because you are taking emotional valence

play21:50

into account

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i don't know what are the other things

play21:53

that other people might not have come

play21:54

out with but

play21:55

i guess one of the ones that stands out

play21:57

from really early on is just

play22:00

uh is making hearts fly out of my head

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for those first face filters um aka face

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effects for photo booth

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um when real time face tracking first

play22:10

was released and we put it into photo

play22:12

booth

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on the mac there was something about

play22:17

emoting love

play22:20

and how it sort of emanated from your

play22:22

face or your head

play22:24

that i guess there was like an

play22:26

expressiveness to it and

play22:28

an effervescence to it that i wanted um

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as opposed to just like i don't know

play22:32

sticking a heart

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over eyes or over a head so maybe that's

play22:37

one example

play22:38

another one that's kind of more recent

play22:40

is i you know i've been experimenting

play22:41

with the visual design for make space

play22:43

and again like i said we'll see where

play22:44

that project goes but

play22:46

i think when a couple of like wayway ao

play22:48

shang

play22:49

julius and max um had chatted about

play22:52

potentially going the direction of

play22:53

japanese stationery and so

play22:56

i put together a whole bunch of stuff

play22:57

and thought about how japanese

play22:58

stationary feels

play22:59

and you know we've been experimenting

play23:01

with what that winds up looking like and

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i don't know there's something about the

play23:04

way japanese stationary

play23:06

feels that it's so

play23:09

i don't know i don't know how you feel

play23:10

about it i i love it it's so

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hard if i'm in like a mido store or

play23:15

something to not

play23:17

like want everything and so

play23:20

i have an entire stack of unused

play23:22

notebooks it's my greatest weakness

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oh my goodness i'm right there with you

play23:26

um so it's like well how do we get that

play23:28

like how do we make a digital interface

play23:30

feel

play23:31

like that like that level of inviting

play23:33

and

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you know warm that's something else i'm

play23:36

playing with i i would say another thing

play23:38

is probably just like

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the care i put into the artistic

play23:42

direction and

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and frankly like who i hired and

play23:45

empowered the people

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um to have a voice as much as possible i

play23:50

frankly i wish it was more at khan

play23:52

academy because

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so much of the educational space like

play23:56

when you look at

play23:57

enterprise or stuff that gets sold to

play23:59

district or like things in education

play24:02

you've got the stuff for early learning

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which a lot of it is sort of borderline

play24:06

patronizing in its visual style

play24:08

i'm sure they like study it and like it

play24:10

whatever it works well for their kpis or

play24:12

whatever but like

play24:14

but then so does like miffy which is

play24:16

this beautifully designed

play24:18

like mid-century traditional

play24:21

at this point in time classic dutch

play24:23

character right it's just

play24:24

tight as graphic design and illustration

play24:27

just incredibly well executed

play24:29

and then there's so much sloppy stuff in

play24:31

the early learning space that just makes

play24:32

me sad from an aesthetic standpoint like

play24:35

like i said maybe they test it and it's

play24:36

fine but and then and then there's all

play24:39

the super dry stuff that uses like stock

play24:42

imagery

play24:43

and it's like so sad looking and people

play24:45

are supposed to use it in their

play24:46

classroom

play24:48

and it just kind of broke my heart in

play24:50

some kind of way

play24:51

so just the emphasis on the illustration

play24:53

the visual design and the creative

play24:54

direction

play24:55

from for how we went with things in the

play24:58

khan academy design team and you know um

play25:02

the contributions of work of tabitha

play25:03

young natalie fitzgerald and

play25:06

uh jacob greif and and warren schulhaus

play25:09

i think are like

play25:09

uh and elizabeth lynn of course um when

play25:12

i think about all these

play25:13

all of the people on the team that

play25:14

really contributed a lot to that we all

play25:16

really wanted that joy and the fun and

play25:19

colors and

play25:21

and also like a visual direction that

play25:23

embodied

play25:24

a constructivist pedagogy

play25:28

in that it conveyed visually

play25:31

the coming together of lots of different

play25:33

disparate pieces

play25:35

in the way that like knowledge is

play25:36

constructed in someone's mind versus

play25:38

just being like handed down

play25:39

by like one uniform for example if we've

play25:42

gone with like one very uniform clean

play25:45

line drawn style versus like a more

play25:47

collage aesthetic

play25:48

you know we would be conveying something

play25:50

different so that's another spot where i

play25:52

feel like i put in a bunch of effort to

play25:54

to make sure that you know we actually

play25:56

cared about that and cared about how

play25:58

students would feel and people would

play26:00

feel arriving

play26:01

arriving at the site and using our stuff

play26:03

and like i said i wish we'd been able to

play26:05

take it even further and do even more in

play26:07

my time there but

play26:08

um i hope that that software and

play26:10

education is able to push a little bit

play26:12

more on the visual realm

play26:13

i think a lot of the times it's just not

play26:15

i don't know why it just doesn't wind up

play26:17

being so

play26:17

valued or maybe it's like budget or

play26:19

maybe it's incentives

play26:21

i have some guesses of i mean some of

play26:23

the reasons that might

play26:24

happen which i think one is there's

play26:28

a strong mindset that i grew up with of

play26:30

like

play26:32

you know you should care more about

play26:33

utility than how it looks like

play26:35

the way it looks is is you know not

play26:38

important or it's it's sort of silly

play26:40

and just like what you were saying about

play26:42

how uh

play26:43

things that you know when you want to

play26:45

make something that is going to be

play26:47

deleted you want it to feel heavy

play26:48

it's it's not just about the looks it's

play26:50

not about being pretty though

play26:52

that's certainly nice like makes it feel

play26:53

more inviting it's about like

play26:56

does the the way it looks and does the

play26:58

way it feels make

play26:59

actually match what it does and what

play27:01

it's supposed to be doing

play27:02

for you because if it does then you're

play27:04

gonna understand it better just like how

play27:06

when i wear um you know a fancy dress

play27:09

i'm probably not going to start painting

play27:11

probably whereas i might if i'm going to

play27:13

go paint maybe i'll wear an apron

play27:15

or you know a crappy t-shirt that i got

play27:18

for free somewhere

play27:19

because i don't want it to get dirty and

play27:21

like the fact that i'm wearing a crappy

play27:23

t-shirt tells me it tells you like if

play27:25

you spill a drink on me right now it's

play27:26

gonna be fine i'm like not gonna get

play27:28

upset

play27:28

whereas you know if i'm wearing my

play27:29

wedding dress or something maybe i'll be

play27:31

a little

play27:32

less happy with you and i i feel like i

play27:34

feel like

play27:35

a an app or a tool or any product that

play27:39

you're using

play27:39

can tell those stories too of like how

play27:42

it how it should be used

play27:43

and i think in the case of the khan

play27:44

academy design stuff

play27:47

a lot of it for me was i wanted the

play27:50

learning and the fun to be associated

play27:52

and i wanted it to feel welcoming to

play27:55

students

play27:55

and students rough thought rather than

play27:58

feeling like an interrogation

play27:59

where they were either going to be right

play28:01

or wrong and that they were empty

play28:02

vessels

play28:03

and that we were all going to follow the

play28:04

banking model of education that fairy

play28:06

coined you know where they were

play28:08

going to just have a bunch of knowledge

play28:10

poured into their head like how do we

play28:11

break that down

play28:12

visually to convey like no you are part

play28:15

of this we're in this together

play28:16

like your thinking matters etc it's like

play28:19

how do we do that

play28:20

and i think that that really at the core

play28:22

of it a lot of the times

play28:23

um especially in education interfaces

play28:27

wind up speaking their pedagogy

play28:29

and if they if all they care about is

play28:32

the fact that some internet thing or

play28:34

some expert holds the knowledge and a

play28:36

student as

play28:37

seen as an empty vessel that has no

play28:39

thought that's of value

play28:40

then usually the interface and the

play28:42

functionality conveys that and that

play28:44

isn't my philosophy of education for

play28:45

what it's worth so

play28:47

[Laughter]

play28:48

you were saying before how um japanese

play28:51

stationery is super welcoming and just

play28:53

like you

play28:54

you just want to touch it and i feel

play28:55

like a lot of apple design does that for

play28:58

me too where

play28:59

you just like see the iphone and you

play29:01

want one because you want to hold it in

play29:03

your hand

play29:04

you want to like feel how it feels and

play29:06

the software feels that way too

play29:07

what do japanese stationery makers

play29:10

and apple designers do that's sort of a

play29:13

shared practice either

play29:14

intentionally or unintentionally i think

play29:16

something that i feel

play29:17

is in common with both japanese

play29:20

stationery and apple

play29:22

stuff is that people care and they put

play29:25

that care

play29:26

in and that the care that's put in

play29:29

by a designer is also

play29:33

able to be carried through in the

play29:34

execution of the thing because it's

play29:36

being valued by

play29:38

whoever it is that's in charge it's

play29:40

considered

play29:41

part of the value proposition of what

play29:43

you're getting right like

play29:44

part of the reason that you like that

play29:46

thing part of the reason that you're a

play29:47

customer of that thing part of what

play29:49

makes it succeed

play29:50

is the design and so it's not something

play29:54

that isn't part of the core value

play29:56

proposition unlike

play29:57

say for example many years ago banking

play30:00

software

play30:01

was something that was not the core

play30:03

proposition was like okay well you can

play30:05

just

play30:06

the core proposition was the bank it's

play30:08

like a place to put your money

play30:10

and like a side effect of it was like

play30:12

okay cool like maybe you want to see

play30:13

some stuff about it

play30:14

it wasn't considered like a competitive

play30:16

edge in what was being sold

play30:19

and i think as a result of that the

play30:21

people who actually designed and

play30:22

actually cared and knew how to put

play30:25

all of that care and craft into the

play30:28

details

play30:29

could have the time and the autonomy to

play30:32

do that without somebody who doesn't

play30:34

have any taste

play30:35

telling them like oh that doesn't matter

play30:38

like we don't have time for that we just

play30:39

need to like do

play30:40

xyz right now you know i think a lot of

play30:43

a lot of

play30:43

craft type of work isn't highly valued

play30:49

by businesses who don't have that at

play30:51

their core and that isn't part of their

play30:53

main value proposition

play30:54

i feel like also once you if you're in

play30:57

in an environment that encourages it and

play30:59

if you yourself are paying attention i

play31:01

have a lot of faith that people

play31:03

figure out ways to to get better at the

play31:05

thing yeah um

play31:06

maybe maybe not immediately but like

play31:09

just

play31:10

attention is such a magical thing like

play31:12

if you pay enough attention to a problem

play31:14

it'll tend to get better and when i say

play31:16

pay attention i don't just mean like

play31:18

worry about it

play31:19

i mean like really seek out solutions to

play31:22

the problem

play31:23

yeah and you can just like keep

play31:24

chiseling away and and ultimately

play31:26

it will it will usually get better it's

play31:29

one of the most amazing things that i've

play31:30

seen in organizations where like

play31:32

the company doesn't seem to care at all

play31:34

about x

play31:35

but then there's a really strong like

play31:37

cultural push to

play31:39

to carry out x and then suddenly just

play31:42

it's like a lens that has been like

play31:43

refocused

play31:44

and after if if the cultural change was

play31:47

really intentional

play31:48

and consistently pushed after the course

play31:51

of

play31:52

a few weeks or months or depending on

play31:53

what it was it feels like an entire ship

play31:56

can actually turn and really refocus on

play31:57

that

play31:58

now it's it's hard to do right but like

play32:01

once

play32:01

you do it then suddenly things start

play32:03

getting done that were like not getting

play32:04

done before

play32:06

and um it's kind of kind of incredible

play32:09

it's true i think it's like i think it's

play32:11

very tied into learning and just the

play32:13

entire process of learning right i think

play32:15

it's like

play32:16

if you really put attention on something

play32:20

attention and intention like you know uh

play32:23

it's kind of amazing where you can get

play32:25

after putting all those hours into

play32:26

something that maybe you

play32:28

didn't even see that way before another

play32:31

place that i've

play32:32

noticed personally just having my

play32:34

attention focused on it has

play32:36

has made me a lot better is around

play32:38

language

play32:39

one of the things i've been excited to

play32:40

talk about is our shared

play32:42

experience of learning spanish um with

play32:45

you lived in colombia last year with

play32:48

your partner

play32:49

and i spent a lot of time in argentina

play32:51

where my boyfriend is from

play32:53

and i'm probably projecting here a

play32:55

little bit but

play32:56

i know for for me personally the

play32:58

experience of being like

play33:00

only okay at spanish and then spending a

play33:02

month in

play33:03

a spanish-speaking household has had a

play33:05

lot of really interesting

play33:07

emotional effects on the way that i

play33:09

learn and it's made me really realize

play33:10

how important emotion is in a way that i

play33:13

i didn't before

play33:14

and like one of the ways is just that

play33:16

i'm so much more motivated

play33:18

to learn spanish than i ever was before

play33:21

because

play33:21

i want to be able to talk to my

play33:23

boyfriend's mom

play33:24

i want to be able to have a conversation

play33:26

and whereas when i was studying it in

play33:27

school

play33:29

i i always enjoyed language but there

play33:31

there wasn't that like

play33:33

deep emotional connection that i had and

play33:36

so i just learned a lot slower

play33:37

but it also means that failures or maybe

play33:40

failure isn't the right word but

play33:42

moments of not being able to communicate

play33:44

are also that much

play33:45

more emotional and challenging because

play33:48

you want it so badly and it's not

play33:50

it's not really working so can you talk

play33:52

a little bit about your experience of

play33:53

living in colombia

play33:54

and what that has taught you about

play33:56

education and learning

play33:58

yeah sure one thing i think i learned

play34:01

living in colombia

play34:02

is just how physical the language you

play34:05

know we spend so much time typing words

play34:08

on a page

play34:09

and thinking that that that we're

play34:11

expressing ourselves

play34:12

but i feel like after spending that time

play34:14

in colombia i feel like

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the actual words and what you get from a

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written word

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as far as what you would get from

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talking to a person is is really

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kind of a small percentage because it's

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so

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physical uh in colombian spanish

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the inflection the breath the eyebrows

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micro movements there's so much stuff

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happening

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that over time i'm realizing goes so

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so so so much deeper than the actual

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words again coming back to the dance

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like the different ways that people are

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even set up

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around each other like circular layouts

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versus

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um you know grid layouts of people in

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the room

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who's taking up air time how people are

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moving around each other on all of those

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things in general

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i enjoy more sort of participatory crowd

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noises

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which i know are just much more the norm

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in some cultures than others

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and same thing with like shows right

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like the culture of a classical music

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show

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tends to be very like it needs to

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everybody needs to be super super quiet

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well as like so many other shows where

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you

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yell like yell back and there's colin

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response and there's all that stuff

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like in thinking especially about like

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black american culture there's just so

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much more

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responsiveness generally during the

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shows and how does that show up

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in digital media is another thing that i

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always think about like

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how do we how do we get to yell back

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like had or like yeah the movie theater

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experience is another one the tennis

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match like

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what does it look like when you can

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actually like hear much more

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responsiveness all the time

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and i think that's one of the things

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that's like with digital video

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conferencing there's so much assumption

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built into like one person speaking at a

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time and nobody else reacting which is

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so weird to me

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like there's so many of the like video

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conference software where it's like

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whoever's speaking

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uh i think it was google me that did

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this they'd like make their face big and

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then if someone else spoke they'd make

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their face big and that's just like

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built on the assumption that nobody else

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is going to make any noises or like say

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anything

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and that assumption is probably really

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good for certain

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things and like you know personally i'm

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actually glad that

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people don't react in classical

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classical performances like i like being

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able to

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listen because like classical music has

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such a wide range from like

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really really quiet all the way to the

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loudest grandest thing and

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if you had people reacting during the

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quiet parts you couldn't hear it

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right um but at the same time yeah if

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you're listening if you're like at a

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rock concert and people aren't screaming

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their heads off like

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it's probably not a good concert right

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so yeah so like

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i think the the range is something

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that's exciting to me being able to pick

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your toolbox based off of the kind of

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vibe and situation and

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relationship that you want to have with

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the audience and with

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the medium and that sort of thing and i

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guess one of the things that happens now

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is that so much of the stuff that we

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create is like really catered to like

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super corporate conversations and so

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that's what you get

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right like zoom is really solid and

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stable

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because a lot of companies spend

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millions of dollars to pay for it

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whereas i think these other these other

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more experimental ones are really fun

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but like i wouldn't invite my

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grandparents to that because they're not

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comfortable

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with with trying super new like zoom is

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already a stretch for them

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and to do like a really experimental

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space like like make space for example

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um they would be scared like they

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wouldn't feel comfortable so i think

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that's part of it is that the the um

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sort of work

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conference style which is so refined and

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is quite good for a very particular

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purpose um that's what we end up getting

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stuck with

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because it's the thing that quote

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unquote actually works right now

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totally totally although it's

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interesting how like a facetime call

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feels very different from a zoom one

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anyway

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true yeah actually what do you think it

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is about it that feels so different

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um i actually think

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that it's a lot of little things that

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add up

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so part of it's the chrome the chrome

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holds a vibe

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i think we can't as much as chrome in

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software tries to get out of the way

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it still it causes a vibe so i think

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that's one of it

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one of the things a lot of the times

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when you're on the zoom call you're like

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in a browser

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there's there's still a bunch of buttons

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there's still some stuff across the top

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etc so there's that

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i think i i think facetime tries to be a

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lot more neutral

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so a lot of times when you're in the

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call you're really only just looking at

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the other person's face there's like not

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a whole lot of other stuff on the screen

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so i think that's one of the things and

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and that's i mean i i think that's just

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talking about the one-on-one

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conversations that's

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probably the main part but then of

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course there's all those algorithmic

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choices about like who you show

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are you in a great show are you in a

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great view or are you in the like

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focus on person and you are a smaller

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person

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and what am i lighting up and am i

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ducking the audio or not ducking the

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audio i think all those things make a

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difference too

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they all add up you know like they it's

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just like each of them feels like a

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small decision but i think that all of

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them wind up adding up to the experience

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but the one that jumps out to me is the

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chrome i think

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yeah yeah and that's i think where the

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attention of the designer really makes a

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difference like if if the attention of

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the designer is focused on building

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something for

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a corporate client then just all the

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little decisions they're going to make

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are maybe not even intentional they just

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kind of intuitively

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pull towards a particular direction that

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sends some signal

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versus versus the other one of the

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things for facetime for me too is that

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you usually connect um via your phone

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number

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so you can only facetime people who you

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like have their apple id or their phone

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number