Pioneers: May-Li Khoe

Summary

このエピソードは、デザインと技術の融合を探求するシリーズ「パイオニアーズ」の第6回。ゲストはMaylie Kuで、彼女はプロトタイピング、ダンス、DJ、グリッター、工学を愛し、世界との新しい相互作用方法を作り出すデザイナー。Appleでの経験からKhan AcademyのデザインVPまで、そして最近はVirtual World「Makespace」の共同創設者。会話の核心は、身体性とデザインの関係、感情とデザインの相互作用、そしてデジタル空間でのコミュニケーションの未来についての洞察です。

Takeaways

• 🎶 メイリー・クーはプロトタイピング、ダンス、DJ、キラキラ、そしてエンジニアリングを愛し、新しい対話の方法を作り出すデザイナーです。
• 📱 メイリーはAppleで初代iPhoneやForce Touchを開発するチームの一員でした。
• 🏫 メイリーはKhan AcademyのデザインVPを務め、教育の未来可能性を探る長期研究グループを共同設立しました。
• 🌐 メイリーは最近、多数のコラボレーターと共に、Zoomのようなビデオチャットツールの矩形を革新的に変えるvirtual world「Makespace」を立ち上げました。
• 💃 メイリーのダンスの情熱は、彼女のデザイン思考に大きな影響を与え、インタラクションとアニメーションのデザインに身体的な要素を取り入れています。
• 🎭 メイリーは、スペーシャルインタフェースの会話において、空間性がどのように展開するかについて議論し、ダンスやパフォーマンスにおける舞台上の動きや遷移をデザインに取り入れています。
• 🚀 メイリーは、インタラクションデザインにおいて物体がどのように動くかについて多くの考えをし、重くても軽くても、それが页面上の動きやそれらがどのように関連するかを考慮に入れる重要性を述べました。
• 🌟 メイリーは、デザインにおける感情の重要性を強調し、ユーザーが製品を使い始める前に感情的なつながりがあると感じられるデザインを目指しています。
• 📚 メイリーは、教育において視覚的なデザインと創造的指向を重要視し、学生が楽しい学習体験をすることが教育の目的の一部であると感じています。
• 🌍 メイリーは、デジタルメディアにおいて文化的な反応や臨場感をどのように取り入れ、それらを反映する方法について考えています。
• 🔍 メイリーは、デザインプロセスにおいて注意深く、そして意図的なアプローチを重要視し、成功するデザインに導くために小さな選択肢から大きなループまでをカバーする構造を提案しています。

Q & A

Maylie Kuがデザインとエンジニアリングを統合し、新しいインタラクションの方法を考案する上で、ダンスやDJなど彼女の趣味はどのように影響を与えていますか？

Maylie Kuは、ダンスやDJなど彼女の趣味を通じて、物体の動きや空間性について深い理解を持っています。例えば、Appleで働いていた時に制作した最初のiPhoneのエディットアプリの画面アニメーションは、太多にヒップシェイクを伴うタヒチアンダンスに似ていたと語っています。彼女は、趣味を通じて得た这种感觉をデザインに取り入れ、インタラクションのアニメーションや移動を考案する際に、より自然で魅力的な動きを提供しています。

Maylie KuがKhan AcademyでデザインVPを務めている時、教育の未来についてどのように探求しましたか？

Maylie KuはKhan AcademyでデザインVPを務めている時、教育の未来について探求するために、長期研究グループを共同設立しました。彼女は、教育の可能性を最大限に引き出し、学習体験をより魅力的かつ効果的にするための潜在的な将来の方向性を探求していました。彼女の取り組みは、学習体験をより学生に合わせたものにし、学生が単なる知識の受信側ではなく、学習プロセスに積極的に関与するように工夫することで、教育の将来をより明るく、希望に満ちたものに変えることを目指していました。

Maylie KuがMaylspaceという仮想世界を立ち上げた背景にはどのような意図がありましたか？

Maylie Kuが立ち上げたMaylspaceは、現在のビデオチャットツール如いZoomのような矩形の画面の中でのコミュニケーションを刷新することを目的としています。Maylspaceは、ユーザーに対して空間的な自由度を提供し、仮想空間でのコミュニケーションや協力を楽しむことができるようにすることで、オンラインでの交流をより富人化することを目指しています。Maylspaceの開発には、遠隔地での知識労働が主流となった現代の状況下で、オンライン空間をより人間味あく、創造的な文化を育むことが重要であるという考えが込められています。

Maylie Kuがデザイン思考において重要視する「物体の動き」において、どのようにして重いものと軽いものを見分けるか？

Maylie Kuは、物体の動きにおいて、その重さを感じるかどうかによって重いものと軽いものを見分けます。例えば、何かを削除する際には、その行為が「重い」ものであるため、実際にの操作も「重い」感じ shouldBe すると考えています。一方、問題が大してないようなシンプルなレイアウトの変更は、軽い感じ shouldBe すると考えています。Maylieは、UIがその操作の結果を反映し、何が起こるかについて明確に示すべきだと考えており、そのために物体の動きや遷移が重要だとemphasis しています。

Maylie KuがAppleで働いていた時、Force Touchを発明した際の考えとは何でしたか？

Maylie KuはAppleで働いていた時、Force Touchを発明しました。彼女は、直感的なタッチインターフェースを提供することで、ユーザーがより自然な方法でデバイスとインタラクションできるようにするという考えを持っていました。Force Touchは、ユーザーがスクリーンに触れる力强弱によって、デバイスからの反応を変える技術です。これにより、ユーザーは細かい操作や強調など、より高度な機能を使用できるようになり、より豊かな操作体験を提供するものです。

Maylie Kuがデザインに取り組む際に、どのようにして失敗や問題を解決するか？

Maylie Kuは、デザインに取り組む際に、問題や失敗に対処する際には、まず問題を明確に認識し、その問題を解決するための方法を探し求めることが重要だと考えています。彼女は、問題解決に向けて、継続的に注意力を集中し、解決策を模索することで、問題を改善していくことが可能です。Maylieはまた、失敗を恐れず、失敗を通じて学ぶことができると信じており、失敗を回避するのではなく、失敗から学び、改善することで、より良いデザインを生み出すことができます。

Maylie Kuがデザインにおいて重視する「感情」とは何ですか？

Maylie Kuがデザインにおいて重視する「感情」とは、ユーザーが製品やサービスを使用する際に感じるエモーションや心情です。彼女は、デザインが単に機能的であるだけでなく、ユーザーの感情にも影響を与えると信じています。例えば、ユーザーが喜びや興奮を感じることを促すデザインは、ユーザーの体験をより充実させ、ユーザーが製品やサービスをより好意的に感じることができるようにします。Maylieは、デザインがユーザーの感情を考慮に入れることで、ユーザーとの関係をより深め、ユーザーのニーズや欲求に応えることができると考えています。

Maylie Kuが言及した「第三の場所」とは何を指しますか？

Maylie Kuが言及した「第三の場所」とは、家や職場を除いた第三の場所を指します。これは、人々の交流や相互作用が生まれる場所であり、例えばカフェや公園、図書館などが該当します。Maylieは、現在のデジタル環境ではこの「第三の場所」が欠けていると感じており、Maylspaceの開発でもこのような空間を再現することを目指しています。彼女は、このような第三の場所が、人間関係を豊かにし、より自然な交流を促進する役割を持っていると強調しています。

Maylie Kuがデザインチームで働く際に重要視した要素は何ですか？

Maylie Kuはデザインチームで働く際に、最も重要視した要素はチームメンバーの創造性と表現の自由度だと述べています。彼女は、デザインチームのメンバーが自分の意見を自由に表現し、創造的なアイデアを提供できる環境を作り出すことが重要だと考えています。また、彼女は教育の分野においても、視覚的なデザインとイラストレーションの重要性を強調しており、教育の品質を向上させるために、美しいデザインを提供することが必要です。

Maylie KuがMaylspaceでの実験的なアプローチの成果はどのようなものですか？

Maylie KuがMaylspaceでの実験的なアプローチは、仮想空間でのコミュニケーションの新たな方法を模索する際の刺激を提供するという成果があります。Maylspaceは、ユーザーが空間を自在に操作し、雰囲気を作り出すことができるインタラクションを提供することで、ビデオチャットの標準的な形式を刷新しています。また、Maylieは、Maylspaceの実験を通じて、ユーザーが仮想空間をより自然で愉悦に利用する方法について学ぶことができました。

Maylie Kuがデザインに取り組む際のアプローチはどのように変化しましたか？

Maylie Kuのデザインアプローチは、職業経験を積むにつれて変化しています。Appleで働いていた時、彼女は技術的な面に重点を置いて、革新的な製品を作り出すことを目指していました。一方、Khan AcademyやMaylspaceでの取り組みでは、ユーザーの感情や体験を重視し、デザインがユーザーの生活にどのように影響を与えるかを考慮するようになりました。彼女の現在のアプローチは、デザインがユーザーのニーズを満たし、感情を豊かにするものであることを重視しています。

Outlines

00:00

🎙️イントロダクションとメイリー・クーの紹介

このエピソードは、コンピュータ技術の発展に貢献したデザイナー、エンジニア、発明家との対話シリーズ「パイオニアーズ」の第6回目です。メイリー・クーは、プロトタイピング、ダンス、DJ、きらめくデザイン、工学に情熱を注ぎ、新しいメディアを手中に持つことで開かれる可能性を捉える眼を持つデザイナーです。メイリーはAppleで初代iPhoneやForce Touchを開発し、Khan AcademyのデザインVPを務め、教育の未来について探求する研究グループを共同設立しました。最近、コラボレーターたちと共に、ビデオチャットツールのZoomなどの矩形を革新的に変えるvirtual world「Makespace」を立ち上げました。

05:01

💃メイリーの身体性とデザインへの影響

メイリーの身体性は、彼女のデザインの考え方と大きな影響を与えています。彼女はダンスを通じて、スクリーン上のアプリの動きやエディットアプリのアニメーションをデザインしています。メイリーは、ダンスやパフォーマンスにおける動きや舞台の入り口、退場、最終幕の流れが、彼女のデザイン仕事にも影響を与えていると語っています。

10:02

🎭メイリーのデザイン哲学とMakespace

メイリーは、物体がページ上でどのように移動し、互いにどのように関係するかについて考える際、重いものや軽いもの、移動しやすくないものなど、重要な次元を考えています。Makespaceは、オンラインでのコミュニケーションを革新的なものにし、通常のビデオチャットツールとは異なる新しい方法で時間を共有できる場所を提供しています。Makespaceの価値観は、人間味を強め、オンラインでの時間を過ごす際に、より親しみやすく、ケアと創造文化を促進することにあります。

15:03

🤖VRとUI/UXデザインの課題

メイリーは、VRが理論上は直感的であるべきであるにもかかわらず、実際の経験では期待外れであることが多かったと述べています。VRの技術的な問題や、ハードウェアの分裂、経済的なインセンティブの不足など、多くの要素がUI/UXデザインの進歩を阻害していると見なされています。

20:05

🌟パイオニアーズのProvocationと将来の展望

メイリーは、パイオニアーズが多くの人々に刺激を与えたと感じており、新しい発展が期待されています。しかし、Makespaceはまだ公開されていないと述べ、現在のプロトタイプ段階に留まっています。メイリーは、Makespaceが5年後に何地处するのか、どのように使われるかを明確には言えていないが、その空間が人々に共有され、最も必要な人々によって使用されることを望んでいます。

25:06

🎨感情とデザインの結びつき

メイリーは、デザイン時に感情を考慮することが重要であると強調しています。デザインは、人々が学ぶことや話すこと、製品について感じることに影響を与えるため、デザインが単にデータのアップロード先ではなく、感情を引き出すものであることが重要です。メイリーは、自分のデザインで取り組んだいくつかの感情的な要素を举例しています。

30:07

🌈学びと教育のデザイン

メイリーは、学ぶプロセス全体において、注意を集中させることの重要性を述べています。学ぶことで、失敗やコミュニケーションの困難さといった感情的な側面があるため、デザインは単に知識を提供するだけではなく、学習プロセス全体に関与しています。メイリーは、教育のデザインにおいて、学生が感じることを重要視し、デザインが学びのプロセス全体にどのように影響するかを考慮するべきだと述べています。

35:07

💡デザインの注意と細部へのこだわり

メイリーは、デザインにおける細部へのこだわりが、ユーザーが製品を使用する際の体験に影響を与えると語っています。デザインの細部に注力することで、ユーザーが製品にどのように反応するかを理解し、改善することができると考えています。メイリーは、Appleのデザインや自己のデザインプロジェクトで行った細部へのこだわりの例を挙げ、それがどのようにユーザー体験に影響を与えたかを説明しています。

Keywords

💡インタラクションデザイン

インタラクションデザインとは、ユーザーと製品やサービスとの接点を考慮してデザインを行う方法です。この動画では、Maylie KuがダンスやDJなど自分の興味を融合させ、インタラクションデザインに独特のアプローチを与えることを見せました。例えば、Appleのエディットアプリの画面アニメーションがタヒチアンダンスに似ていることや、空間的なUI要素の動きがダンスの動きと関連していることが挙げられています。

💡プロトタイピング

プロトタイピングは、製品やサービスの初期段階で実験的なモデルを作成し、その機能性やデザインを検証するプロセスです。Maylie Kuはプロトタイピングを通じて、新しいメディアが持つ可能性を探求し、インタラクティブな世界との新しい方法を創造しています。例えば、AppleでのForce Touchの発明や、Khan Academyの教育の未来を探る研究グループの設立などが彼女のプロトタイピングの成果として挙げられます。

💡メタファー

メタファーとは、複雑な概念やアイデアを理解するための簡潔で視覚的にわかりやすい表現です。この動画で言及された「メタファー」は、Maylie Kuがデザイン概念を説明するために使用した言葉です。例えば、「舞台でのパフォーマンス」を通じてUI要素の動きや空間的な関係性を説明する際に使用されました。

💡デジタルメディア

デジタルメディアとは、デジタル技術を用いて作られた媒体のことで、コンピュータやスマートフォン、デジタルTVなどを通じて消費されるコンテンツを指します。この動画では、Maylie Kuがデジタルメディアを通じて教育やコミュニケーションの新しい形を模索していることが示されています。例えば、Khan AcademyのデザインVP時代の活動や、最近発足したバーチャルワールド「Makespace」などがその例です。

💡教育

教育とは、知識やスキルを習得させるプロセスです。この動画では、Maylie Kuが教育に対する她的と新しいアプローチを探求していることが示されています。特に、彼女が共同設立したKhan Academyの研究グループでは、教育の未来について調査し、従来の教育モデルを超えた創造的な方法を模索していました。

💡VR

VRは、仮想現実(Virtual Reality)の略で、コンピュータ技術を用いて作られる人工的な体験を提供する技術です。この動画では、Maylie KuがVR技術の可能性に興味を持っており、その不整合性や課題について言及しています。例えば、VRが理論的には直感的であるべきであるが、実際の導入においては技術的な問題や経済的なインセンティブの欠如などで困難が生じることがあるという点が挙げられています。

💡ユーザーエクスペリエンス

ユーザーエクスペリエンスとは、ユーザーが製品やサービスを利用する際の体験の質を指します。この動画では、Maylie Kuがデザインプロセスにおいてユーザーの感情や感覚を重視し、それらがユーザーエクスペリエンスにどのように影響するかについて議論しています。例えば、删除操作が実際に重い感じ shouldBe heavy に反映され、それによってユーザーが操作の重要性を理解するといった例が挙げられています。

💡コラボレーション

コラボレーションとは、複数の人々が力を合わせてプロジェクトを進めるプロセスです。この動画では、Maylie Kuがコラボレーションを通じて新しいアイデアやインノベーションを生み出すことを好んでいることが示されています。例えば、Makespaceというバーチャルワールドを共同で創設したことが該当します。また、彼女の活動には、他者との協働が欠かせない部分があり、そのような活動がどのようにコラボレーションに寄与するかが説明されています。

💡デジタルインタフェース

デジタルインタフェースとは、コンピュータやデジタルデバイスとの間で情報をやり取りするためのメカニズムや方法を指します。この動画では、Maylie Kuがデジタルインタフェースに関連するデザインの重要性を強調しています。特に、彼女が取り組んだプロジェクトでは、ユーザーがデジタルインタフェースを通じて世界とインタラクトする方法を革新的に行ったことが述べられています。

💡創造性

創造性とは、新しいアイデアを生み出す能力や、既存のアイデアを新しい方法で使用する能力を指します。この動画では、Maylie Kuが自分の創造性を最大限に活かしてデザインに取り組むことが強調されています。例えば、彼女のデザインプロセスでは、ダンスやDJなどのパフォーマンスアートがインタラクションデザインに影響を与える独特のアプローチを提供しています。

💡フィードバック

フィードバックとは、ある行動や結果に対する意見や评论を指します。この動画では、Maylie Kuがフィードバックを重視し、デザインプロセスにおいてユーザーの意見を反映させることが重要であると述べられています。しかし、彼女の経験から、フィードバックは常に受け入れるわけではなく、時には自分の直感や洞察に基づくデザインも重要であると強調しています。

Highlights

Maylie Ku's multifaceted background in design, prototyping, dancing, DJing, and engineering has led to innovative approaches in interaction design.

Her work on the first iPhone and inventing Force Touch at Apple showcases her ability to integrate physicality and emotion into technology.

Maylie's experience as VP of Design at Khan Academy and co-founding their long-term research group highlights her commitment to exploring potential futures of education.

Makespace, a virtual world she launched, aims to transform the dry, rectangular format of video chat tools into a spatial and enjoyable experience.

The concept of embodied thinking in design is exemplified by Maylie's approach to interactions and animations, drawing from her love for dancing.

The importance of spatial interfaces and the flow of performance work, such as entrances and exits on stage, influence Maylie's设计理念.

Maylie emphasizes the need for UI elements to make sense in terms of movement, placement, and transitions, reflecting a deep understanding of user interaction.

The balance between heavy and light elements in UI design should reflect the significance and ease of user actions, such as deleting content.

Maylie's heuristic for design involves considering the physicality and emotional impact of interactions, aiming for a UI that reflects the outcomes of user actions.

The challenge of creating a 'vibe' in digital spaces, as opposed to physical ones, is a central focus in Maylie's work on Makespace.

Maylie discusses the importance of design in creating mental models for users, helping them understand how different elements of a product fit together.

Her experience with Japanese stationery and Apple design highlights the emotional connection and care that can be instilled in products through meticulous design.

Maylie's work at Khan Academy reflects her emphasis on visual design, creativity, and the need for educational tools to feel inviting and fun.

The conversation touches on the importance of attention and intention in learning and design, and how focusing on these aspects can lead to significant improvements.

Maylie shares her approach to life and work, which involves setting overarching goals, creating structures to track progress, and allowing for flexibility and creativity.

The discussion highlights the need for a balance between intuition and user testing in design, drawing from Maylie's experiences at different organizations.

Maylie's method of prototyping involves gathering related materials, starting with small steps, and gradually building up to a more complex prototype.

The conversation concludes with Maylie's thoughts on the importance of valuing both the creative process and the structure needed to ensure that actions align with long-term goals.

Transcripts

hello

i'm devin and you're listening to the

sixth episode of pioneers

an ongoing series of conversations with

the designers engineers and inventors

who shaped computing as we know it a

quick housekeeping note

you're probably familiar with the show

by its original name tools and craft

that name has now expanded to refer to

notion's entire blog

which is coincidentally where you can

find all past and future episodes of

this series

pioneers so today i'm floored to be

talking to maylie ku

maylie is a designer and she has tightly

integrated her loves of prototyping

dancing djing glitter and engineering

into making

all sorts of novel ways of interacting

with the world

she has an especially sharp eye for

recognizing the opportunities that open

up when you have new mediums in your

hands

melee has worked on too many cool things

for me to list them all

so here's just a tiny sampler while

melee

was at apple she worked on the first

iphone and she was also part of the team

that invented force touch among

many other things later she was the vp

of design at khan academy and co-founded

their long-term research group

where she explored what potential

futures of education might be

and just in this last year she launched

a virtual world called makespace with a

number of collaborators

which takes the dry boring rectangle

that zoom and other video chat tools

take for granted

and instead turns it on its head and

makes hanging out with friends or

collaborating with people in virtual

space

spatial and fun so melee thank you so

much for taking the time to have this

conversation

hello thank you thank you so much for

having me

i've been really really looking forward

to this uh because this hits a bunch of

my

favorite topics and also i just wanted

to hang out with you more for a long

time so

this is going to be a blast yeah awesome

yeah totally so so one of the themes

that

has really jumped out at me from

studying your work

and from talking to you is just how

embodied your thinking is

you have a lifelong love for dancing and

that seems to have had a huge

impact on the way you design

interactions and animations for example

you've talked about how the apple edit

app screen animation is a lot like a

tahitian dance

with that has a lot of hip shaking in it

if anyone has no idea what i'm talking

about

if you have an iphone or an ipad and you

like go to try to edit your your home

screen of apps

you'll see that your app's like chic and

you can kind of imagine hips way so

i'm really curious like how have you

involved the physicality of our bodies

into interaction design like the first

thing that jumps into my mind is just

having conversations with people about

how things should move

i don't know if this happens to other

people but just having these actual

movements like dancing out with my hands

or my arms how

things should move or be arranged in the

screen you know it's something that you

wind up losing

when you've got a bunch of static mocks

and you're not having face-to-face

conversations with each other but i

would say it's definitely permeated in

that way and just just the way that i

talk or think about things

and sort of similarly to that i think

the entire conversation about spatial

interfaces and how spatiality

plays out for both ui elements winds up

coming into play because as a dancer

or as a performer you think about how

you get on stage what you do when you

get on stage what happens when you're

going off the stage how you go off stage

you know what does a finale look like

what does the introduction look like

there's

there's a flow to doing um performance

work

uh as a dancer as well as the movement

itself and i think all of that plays

into the work right

like how does an element appear to you

on the screen what do those transitions

look like

do they make sense you know where does

the thing go when you're not looking at

it

i think a lot of that that's probably

played out in my work

almost in a way that it's like i

i don't even know that i'm thinking

about it

um but it's definitely jumped out a lot

when i wind up miming stuff in

conversations with other people

that's probably when i notice it the

most i'm like oh yeah

i guess i'm kind of dancing through this

i love that concept of performance i

think

my background is engineering and i've

gotten more into the product design

space in the last few years and

when i had my like pure engineering hat

on i was very much focused on like

what just like what are we trying to

achieve on the page okay does the page

show that okay cool we're done

whereas like that idea of you know

what's what does the entrance look like

what does how does someone get

introduced to this thing

how does information leave the page when

you're going to the next piece and

that's incredibly important for them to

understand how the pieces fit together

as opposed to this like big abstract

concept which can

it can be hard to build like a mental

model of what's going on with a product

if you if you don't have all of those

things tied together

yeah i think i think related to that is

also uh there's the mental model

and then there's there's the like does

the motion make sense

aspect of it like do you want this to be

a heavy thing or a light thing

should it be easily movable should it

not be easily movable like where is it

coming from

and also like is this pleasant

anyway those are all questions that wind

up coming up for me when i think about

like how things move on a page and how

they relate to each other

those are really interesting dimensions

to think about what's your heuristic for

deciding whether or not something should

be heavy versus light or easy to move

versus

hard to move i mean ideally and we

haven't gotten here

yet when it comes to interaction and

design but like ideally

a thing that's going to have

ramifications that are heavy for you

like deleting something should actually

feel heavy

while it's something that's just like

not that big of a deal like just maybe

rearranging things for example like

that shouldn't feel heavy so i feel like

it should

uh ideally ui like reflects the way that

you interact with it reflects something

about

what's going to happen as a result you

know it's kind of the equivalent of like

are you sure you want to delete

everything like

it's kind of funny how like is just it's

so easy to type but

it should actually feel like lead you

know

yeah wow

that's a great point you you were

talking about how um

now that everyone's basically remote

almost all all the time when doing

knowledge work

with some exceptions of course it's sort

of changed the way that we can

communicate with people when we work

with them um

as you've been working on makespace

which also like leans into that paradigm

of you know being being on the screen um

well actually before i ask this question

can you describe what makes spaces to to

our audience well so makespace is a

couple of things from an interaction

standpoint it's an entirely new way of

spending time together online

where you know you break out of the

little tiny

static rectangles that we're mostly

locked into

and you can actually have control over

creating a whole vibe and

move around while you communicate

and spend time with other people and

then sort of at the at the next level of

meta

the sort of the values behind it were

are all

about how to further humanize and create

care

and create spaces that are amenable to

care and caring culture um and creative

creative culture while spending time

together online

so i guess like another way of putting

it would be a lot of the time when we

spend together

uh spend time together online it feels

about

as cozy as a corporate conference room

how about

instead we create spaces where

uh we actually want to be in them with

people we care about and

are excited to go back uh and make them

feel like ours

so yeah i really like that i mean why is

it so hard to make a vibe

in in zoom um

there's a couple things it's like you

don't actually

the space doesn't exist it's almost as

if

you were walking in an infinite white

plain right and then you came across a

bunch of people for a second

and every time one of you talked to

everybody clustered and all looked at

you

including one person holding a mirror so

that you're looking at yourself

and and then that's all there is and as

soon as the conversation is over

you all disappear into that infinite you

know plane of white space

well as if you think about the way that

we gather in real life

you know there's the choice of where you

spend time

and all of the choices that go into how

that place is arranged and how you

interact

into it those are all design choices

that you're not making any sort of close

parallel to when you're in a place like

zoom

i'll say this as as having been a dj one

of the things that really irritates me

is when people set up a dance floor and

they push

all the chairs to the outside of the

room facing in right

it makes it so hard to start a dance

party because everybody's

looking at the dance floor and so you

know

what the la and what's the lighting

right if you keep the lights all the way

up a lot of times people are more

self-conscious you know where's the door

where the speakers where's the dj like

all of those types of things are things

that you think about as a person who

throws events

and then as a person who attends things

or like if you and i were gonna go hang

out i would

i would think about okay like well what

is appropriate for like you and i to go

um spend time in is it gonna be like a

park is it going to be

i don't know the children's museum is it

going to be

a zoo or a cafe and if it is a cafe

which cafe

depending on what we're going to be

doing you know there's just like a

million tiny choices of

atmosphere and arrangement inside that

atmosphere

that go into our actual human

interactions when you know it's not in

the middle of a pandemic

so when we spend time online suddenly

all that stuff is stripped away

and we're left with yeah the equivalent

of

a corporate conference conference room

and it's sad

i really feel that i think a lot of

people i know

say that it's just really awkward to

talk to people on zoom even a lot of

people that you really care about like i

found it find it almost like awkward to

talk to my mom on zoom and

i've known my mom my whole life and i i

think

you're on something here where like it

strips away all of the affordances that

a space gives you

like if i if i invite you to um

afternoon tea versus to like

drinks at 11 pm you know both situations

are pretty similar in a lot of ways

but just by inviting you to one versus

the other it's like sending a different

signal of

you know the kind of experience that i'm

looking to have with you

and with zoom you can do a little bit of

that by saying like

bring your red wine or bring your bring

your tea

um but it's not like the whole place

doesn't sort of

bend itself to trying to

create that vibe you get a completely

different vibe

depending on where you're inviting

someone

one like if you're inviting them to a

wine bar at 11 p.m

versus at tea time at like 2 p.m you're

going to get a completely different

experience and

you know even the the waiter is going to

serve you really differently

and the the music in the space is going

to encourage you like

in the wine bar it might be really loud

and so you have to lean in and you get

like physically closer

versus like a quiet t it has like

peaceful piano in the background or

something like that and

you have a very different kind of like

wholesome whimsical experience maybe

and zoom like you you could do that i

think it's not impossible to create it

but zoom does not help you at all right

yeah yep yep and and kind of getting

back to

something that we were talking about

earlier um you know as a dancer thinking

about how i get on stage how you get off

stage i remember at a really early age

the teacher being like

a certain people in the audience can

still see you like out in the wings

so um you know make sure that you keep

dancing until you're like

all the way off all the way through the

wings you know that type of thing

and that also applies with social

interactions right what are the wings

for uh web design like what's sort of

the

the analogy analogy there

oh um i guess like a really easy version

of the wings

um the wings are useful in in

interface design because if you

deliberately have a little bit of

whatever

things in the quote unquote wings

peeking out that's how people that are

going to use the thing know that there's

more stuff there

so that's when you sort of like in a

list view for example

you deliberately um design the line

height for

the majority of people being able to see

some cut off last element so that they

know there's more

for example or if you've got i don't

know if your page is

500 units tall and there's gonna be five

there's gonna be more than five elements

in it then maybe you

want to make sure that each of the

elements is less than 100 elements

units tall so that there's something

peaking at the bottom so that people

know that there's more that that's what

i would think of as kind of the

waiting in the digital wings that makes

sense yeah like a lot of menu bars have

that too of

like being just just out of sight but

you can kind of like turn your head

metaphorically to see it yeah yeah yeah

we've played with other stuff too with

like face detection and parallax and

operating systems none of that stuff has

ever stuck

but you know you could imagine doing

that where you sort of move your head to

the right side of the screen and some

stuff peeks in or you move your head to

the left and you see some stuff peeking

on the right hand side but

you know there's been a bunch of

experiments with things like that over

the years from different places but i

don't know we'll see if it ever happens

there's a lot of cool stuff uh that's

possible with

ui design operating design operating

system design that just like

a lot of it doesn't wind up happening

because it's like splintering of

hardware or there's like lack of

economic incentives to actually do that

cool thing

the mapping too kind of can be really

tricky i think like

from a theoretical level i would expect

vr to be extremely intuitive

but when i put on a vr headset and i

like turn to the right

something is off like it's not turning

like quite

correctly and so it like doesn't quite

miss

there's a mismatch between what i would

see in the quote unquote real world

versus the virtual world

and so that might just be a technical

problem i'm not sure i haven't

looked into it too much but i imagine

there's some of those disconnects where

like

conceptually it's sound but practically

the implementations that

currently exist are make it kind of not

that useful

i am optimistic that vr can actually fix

that for the record but

it's it just hasn't done that yet in my

opinion mm-hmm

yeah this stuff it can be tricky to get

stuff right um

yeah and and tricky to make it worth it

as far as like how much

work it needs to be put into

implementing and testing and

making accessible and all of the things

that happen when you actually ship a

real product

totally yeah which i should mention that

um

all of the stuff that you know make

space it exists

right now not as like a shipped public

version it's something that you know we

had spent a bunch of time in

playing in like a first-stage prototype

and a second stage prototype but

i think more than anything that initial

thing that we put out in the world last

year was like a provocation

and it seems like it succeeded in doing

that like a lot of i think a lot of

people have drawn inspiration from it

i'm excited about

having provoked new things to have

happened

but i want to be clear in case anybody's

listening is like why am i not using it

right now

that's why because it's not like a

launch thing

where would you like it to be in in five

years how would you like people to use

it

i would love for it to feel sort of

co-owned by the people that need it and

use it most

but we'll see what happens it's it's own

little beast and um

it's been pretty organic so far so we'll

see what happens

i also really like what you said about

um having the space be sort of

persistent

sort of beyond the people themselves

where like

you create this thing that you can come

back to and it's like a place you go to

as opposed to something like a zoom

video chat which is

like you know i have my personal meeting

room or whatever

and you should kind of only go to my

personal meeting room if i'm there

it's not like a place you would want to

go to if i wasn't there

whereas you could have another more of a

public space like a library where you

might want to go

hang out with people or you might go and

read by yourself you might meet

strangers

and there's a little bit more

serendipity that happens

in those situations i think because the

thing that connects you is the space

as opposed to a person who had to like

make a plan and and

you know bring people in i think that's

part of the reason that house party

was so popular to the point where

it stopped being reliable at the

beginning of lockdown

about a year ago yeah so what was

interesting about that

thing is that like once you were sort of

present

people hopped in and out there was like

a lot more spontaneous kind of like

getting together

and not sort of being present and

available or not being present

like other people that you knew being

able to hang out as opposed to this like

very formal like okay i'm going to send

you a link and we're going to hop in now

i think that's like another dimension of

this stuff that doesn't get talked about

as much as like the sort of spontaneous

third place like you were saying like

i'm just i'm here because it's

place versus i'm going to your face

when it's there

i guess there's that term right the

third place which is not home

and it's not work it's this other place

where people spend time

and and we're lacking that right now and

we don't really have that in

in the digital realm so it would be cool

if it was that

and and it'd be even cooler if it was a

place like you know what we'd propose

with makespace that

um you could rearrange the furniture or

like

break off into different little clusters

very organically

or like walk around very organically

instead of

being locked essentially strapped to

your conference room chair

what have you been using for your third

space in the last year like what's been

sort of filling that that gap oh man i

don't feel like i have one

for a little while at the beginning of

the pandemic like we were trying to do

that with house party

where there was like sort of an ambient

presence and people could kind of like

hop in and hop out

ish and that was a spot but

i haven't really felt like i've had that

at all

like nothing close to it when you say we

uh is it like a group of friends

is it your family uh who are colleagues

both friends and family and that was

like yeah that was a year ago it was a

short experiment

yeah i guess since then probably like

using our makespace prototype

i should mention that uh waywaysu is

really spearheading it

right now so as far as like where it

goes in the future i think

we will see where it winds up going but

um but makespace is a place where i've

spent time with other people and we've

you can drag in an animated gif of a

bonfire which we did

and then we all brought in a bunch of

little transparent

marshmallows on sticks and held them

over them

that's so cute gathered little seats

around it and

yeah it was it was it's been it's been

cool to see how people wind up using it

even though it's not open or anything i

should say but yeah

yeah at the beginning of the pandemic it

did feel like

there was a lot of energy where people

realized like oh man i'm it's gonna be

really hard to

be around the people i care about for a

long time so i'm gonna experiment with a

lot of things

um i certainly felt that way but then a

few months in

i just lost steam like it kind of

stopped being exciting so much and more

just being like sad

for me yeah um yeah but at the same time

i think like i had a lot of really good

adventures with friends like we went to

um

minecraft disneyland which was a blast

i actually went with a group of friends

who like a month before the pandemic

started we had actually gone to

disneyland together and so then we went

back to minecraft disneyland and like

went on all the same rides

um that was amazing um

and we also tried a bunch of a bunch of

like virtual spaces

that each were awkward in their own

special way

and you know it was actually pretty fun

to be able to

to explore all of these um but yeah

after after some time

it's like you're kind of i i'm staring

at my computer all day long already so

and i actually love my computer a lot

but

at the end of the day i was like you

know what i'd rather just go for a walk

by myself

um because i need to use my body somehow

yeah i wonder how it's all going to go

when people are able to

go out back outside much more often and

be around each other

whether or not actually everybody's

going to be like i really don't want to

be in front of my screen like a second

longer than i need to

i wonder how long that'll last yeah my

prediction is that we're gonna get the

roaring 20s again

everyone's going to go wild with like

costumes and

like crazy parties i think like not

everybody

but uh i think that's going to be it's

going to be wild

yep i believe it i'm feeling that too i

feel like people are already egging it

on

they're like oh like buy your sequin

stuff now because

it's going to happen another theme

that's really jumped out at me from your

work

uh is the idea that when we design

things for people we really have to pay

attention to

how it makes them feel they're not just

like empty vessels where you can like up

upload data into them because that's

just not that's not how it works we we

have

feelings about what we're what we're

learning about who we're talking about

what you ate for lunch it can like

probably affect the way you feel about a

product

um so what are decisions that you've

made that were sort of

what you would probably consider

atypical that other designers might not

have made

because you are taking emotional valence

into account

i don't know what are the other things

that other people might not have come

out with but

i guess one of the ones that stands out

from really early on is just

uh is making hearts fly out of my head

for those first face filters um aka face

effects for photo booth

um when real time face tracking first

was released and we put it into photo

booth

on the mac there was something about

emoting love

and how it sort of emanated from your

face or your head

that i guess there was like an

expressiveness to it and

an effervescence to it that i wanted um

as opposed to just like i don't know

sticking a heart

over eyes or over a head so maybe that's

one example

another one that's kind of more recent

is i you know i've been experimenting

with the visual design for make space

and again like i said we'll see where

that project goes but

i think when a couple of like wayway ao

shang

julius and max um had chatted about

potentially going the direction of

japanese stationery and so

i put together a whole bunch of stuff

and thought about how japanese

stationary feels

and you know we've been experimenting

with what that winds up looking like and

i don't know there's something about the

way japanese stationary

feels that it's so

i don't know i don't know how you feel

about it i i love it it's so

hard if i'm in like a mido store or

something to not

like want everything and so

i have an entire stack of unused

notebooks it's my greatest weakness

oh my goodness i'm right there with you

um so it's like well how do we get that

like how do we make a digital interface

feel

like that like that level of inviting

and

you know warm that's something else i'm

playing with i i would say another thing

is probably just like

the care i put into the artistic

direction and

and frankly like who i hired and

empowered the people

um to have a voice as much as possible i

frankly i wish it was more at khan

academy because

so much of the educational space like

when you look at

enterprise or stuff that gets sold to

district or like things in education

you've got the stuff for early learning

which a lot of it is sort of borderline

patronizing in its visual style

i'm sure they like study it and like it

whatever it works well for their kpis or

whatever but like

but then so does like miffy which is

this beautifully designed

like mid-century traditional

at this point in time classic dutch

character right it's just

tight as graphic design and illustration

just incredibly well executed

and then there's so much sloppy stuff in

the early learning space that just makes

me sad from an aesthetic standpoint like

like i said maybe they test it and it's

fine but and then and then there's all

the super dry stuff that uses like stock

imagery

and it's like so sad looking and people

are supposed to use it in their

classroom

and it just kind of broke my heart in

some kind of way

so just the emphasis on the illustration

the visual design and the creative

direction

from for how we went with things in the

khan academy design team and you know um

the contributions of work of tabitha

young natalie fitzgerald and

uh jacob greif and and warren schulhaus

i think are like

uh and elizabeth lynn of course um when

i think about all these

all of the people on the team that

really contributed a lot to that we all

really wanted that joy and the fun and

colors and

and also like a visual direction that

embodied

a constructivist pedagogy

in that it conveyed visually

the coming together of lots of different

disparate pieces

in the way that like knowledge is

constructed in someone's mind versus

just being like handed down

by like one uniform for example if we've

gone with like one very uniform clean

line drawn style versus like a more

collage aesthetic

you know we would be conveying something

different so that's another spot where i

feel like i put in a bunch of effort to

to make sure that you know we actually

cared about that and cared about how

students would feel and people would

feel arriving

arriving at the site and using our stuff

and like i said i wish we'd been able to

take it even further and do even more in

my time there but

um i hope that that software and

education is able to push a little bit

more on the visual realm

i think a lot of the times it's just not

i don't know why it just doesn't wind up

being so

valued or maybe it's like budget or

maybe it's incentives

i have some guesses of i mean some of

the reasons that might

happen which i think one is there's

a strong mindset that i grew up with of

like

you know you should care more about

utility than how it looks like

the way it looks is is you know not

important or it's it's sort of silly

and just like what you were saying about

how uh

things that you know when you want to

make something that is going to be

deleted you want it to feel heavy

it's it's not just about the looks it's

not about being pretty though

that's certainly nice like makes it feel

more inviting it's about like

does the the way it looks and does the

way it feels make

actually match what it does and what

it's supposed to be doing

for you because if it does then you're

gonna understand it better just like how

when i wear um you know a fancy dress

i'm probably not going to start painting

probably whereas i might if i'm going to

go paint maybe i'll wear an apron

or you know a crappy t-shirt that i got

for free somewhere

because i don't want it to get dirty and

like the fact that i'm wearing a crappy

t-shirt tells me it tells you like if

you spill a drink on me right now it's

gonna be fine i'm like not gonna get

upset

whereas you know if i'm wearing my

wedding dress or something maybe i'll be

a little

less happy with you and i i feel like i

feel like

a an app or a tool or any product that

you're using

can tell those stories too of like how

it how it should be used

and i think in the case of the khan

academy design stuff

a lot of it for me was i wanted the

learning and the fun to be associated

and i wanted it to feel welcoming to

students

and students rough thought rather than

feeling like an interrogation

where they were either going to be right

or wrong and that they were empty

vessels

and that we were all going to follow the

banking model of education that fairy

coined you know where they were

going to just have a bunch of knowledge

poured into their head like how do we

break that down

visually to convey like no you are part

of this we're in this together

like your thinking matters etc it's like

how do we do that

and i think that that really at the core

of it a lot of the times

um especially in education interfaces

wind up speaking their pedagogy

and if they if all they care about is

the fact that some internet thing or

some expert holds the knowledge and a

student as

seen as an empty vessel that has no

thought that's of value

then usually the interface and the

functionality conveys that and that

isn't my philosophy of education for

what it's worth so

[Laughter]

you were saying before how um japanese

stationery is super welcoming and just

like you

you just want to touch it and i feel

like a lot of apple design does that for

me too where

you just like see the iphone and you

want one because you want to hold it in

your hand

you want to like feel how it feels and

the software feels that way too

what do japanese stationery makers

and apple designers do that's sort of a

shared practice either

intentionally or unintentionally i think

something that i feel

is in common with both japanese

stationery and apple

stuff is that people care and they put

that care

in and that the care that's put in

by a designer is also

able to be carried through in the

execution of the thing because it's

being valued by

whoever it is that's in charge it's

considered

part of the value proposition of what

you're getting right like

part of the reason that you like that

thing part of the reason that you're a

customer of that thing part of what

makes it succeed

is the design and so it's not something

that isn't part of the core value

proposition unlike

say for example many years ago banking

software

was something that was not the core

proposition was like okay well you can

just

the core proposition was the bank it's

like a place to put your money

and like a side effect of it was like

okay cool like maybe you want to see

some stuff about it

it wasn't considered like a competitive

edge in what was being sold

and i think as a result of that the

people who actually designed and

actually cared and knew how to put

all of that care and craft into the

details

could have the time and the autonomy to

do that without somebody who doesn't

have any taste

telling them like oh that doesn't matter

like we don't have time for that we just

need to like do

xyz right now you know i think a lot of

a lot of

craft type of work isn't highly valued

by businesses who don't have that at

their core and that isn't part of their

main value proposition

i feel like also once you if you're in

in an environment that encourages it and

if you yourself are paying attention i

have a lot of faith that people

figure out ways to to get better at the

thing yeah um

maybe maybe not immediately but like

just

attention is such a magical thing like

if you pay enough attention to a problem

it'll tend to get better and when i say

pay attention i don't just mean like

worry about it

i mean like really seek out solutions to

the problem

yeah and you can just like keep

chiseling away and and ultimately

it will it will usually get better it's

one of the most amazing things that i've

seen in organizations where like

the company doesn't seem to care at all

about x

but then there's a really strong like

cultural push to

to carry out x and then suddenly just

it's like a lens that has been like

refocused

and after if if the cultural change was

really intentional

and consistently pushed after the course

of

a few weeks or months or depending on

what it was it feels like an entire ship

can actually turn and really refocus on

that

now it's it's hard to do right but like

once

you do it then suddenly things start

getting done that were like not getting

done before

and um it's kind of kind of incredible

it's true i think it's like i think it's

very tied into learning and just the

entire process of learning right i think

it's like

if you really put attention on something

attention and intention like you know uh

it's kind of amazing where you can get

after putting all those hours into

something that maybe you

didn't even see that way before another

place that i've

noticed personally just having my

attention focused on it has

has made me a lot better is around

language

one of the things i've been excited to

talk about is our shared

experience of learning spanish um with

you lived in colombia last year with

your partner

and i spent a lot of time in argentina

where my boyfriend is from

and i'm probably projecting here a

little bit but

i know for for me personally the

experience of being like

only okay at spanish and then spending a

month in

a spanish-speaking household has had a

lot of really interesting

emotional effects on the way that i

learn and it's made me really realize

how important emotion is in a way that i

i didn't before

and like one of the ways is just that

i'm so much more motivated

to learn spanish than i ever was before

because

i want to be able to talk to my

boyfriend's mom

i want to be able to have a conversation

and whereas when i was studying it in

school

i i always enjoyed language but there

there wasn't that like

deep emotional connection that i had and

so i just learned a lot slower

but it also means that failures or maybe

failure isn't the right word but

moments of not being able to communicate

are also that much

more emotional and challenging because

you want it so badly and it's not

it's not really working so can you talk

a little bit about your experience of

living in colombia

and what that has taught you about

education and learning

yeah sure one thing i think i learned

living in colombia

is just how physical the language you

know we spend so much time typing words

on a page

and thinking that that that we're

expressing ourselves

but i feel like after spending that time

in colombia i feel like

the actual words and what you get from a

written word

as far as what you would get from

talking to a person is is really

kind of a small percentage because it's

so

physical uh in colombian spanish

the inflection the breath the eyebrows

micro movements there's so much stuff

happening

that over time i'm realizing goes so

so so so much deeper than the actual

words again coming back to the dance

like the different ways that people are

even set up

around each other like circular layouts

versus

um you know grid layouts of people in

the room

who's taking up air time how people are

moving around each other on all of those

things in general

i enjoy more sort of participatory crowd

noises

which i know are just much more the norm

in some cultures than others

and same thing with like shows right

like the culture of a classical music

show

tends to be very like it needs to

everybody needs to be super super quiet

well as like so many other shows where

you

yell like yell back and there's colin

response and there's all that stuff

like in thinking especially about like

black american culture there's just so

much more

responsiveness generally during the

shows and how does that show up

in digital media is another thing that i

always think about like

how do we how do we get to yell back

like had or like yeah the movie theater

experience is another one the tennis

match like

what does it look like when you can

actually like hear much more

responsiveness all the time

and i think that's one of the things

that's like with digital video

conferencing there's so much assumption

built into like one person speaking at a

time and nobody else reacting which is

so weird to me

like there's so many of the like video

conference software where it's like

whoever's speaking

uh i think it was google me that did

this they'd like make their face big and

then if someone else spoke they'd make

their face big and that's just like

built on the assumption that nobody else

is going to make any noises or like say

anything

and that assumption is probably really

good for certain

things and like you know personally i'm

actually glad that

people don't react in classical

classical performances like i like being

able to

listen because like classical music has

such a wide range from like

really really quiet all the way to the

loudest grandest thing and

if you had people reacting during the

quiet parts you couldn't hear it

right um but at the same time yeah if

you're listening if you're like at a

rock concert and people aren't screaming

their heads off like

it's probably not a good concert right

so yeah so like

i think the the range is something

that's exciting to me being able to pick

your toolbox based off of the kind of

vibe and situation and

relationship that you want to have with

the audience and with

the medium and that sort of thing and i

guess one of the things that happens now

is that so much of the stuff that we

create is like really catered to like

super corporate conversations and so

that's what you get

right like zoom is really solid and

stable

because a lot of companies spend

millions of dollars to pay for it

whereas i think these other these other

more experimental ones are really fun

but like i wouldn't invite my

grandparents to that because they're not

comfortable

with with trying super new like zoom is

already a stretch for them

and to do like a really experimental

space like like make space for example

um they would be scared like they

wouldn't feel comfortable so i think

that's part of it is that the the um

sort of work

conference style which is so refined and

is quite good for a very particular

purpose um that's what we end up getting

stuck with

because it's the thing that quote

unquote actually works right now

totally totally although it's

interesting how like a facetime call

feels very different from a zoom one

anyway

true yeah actually what do you think it

is about it that feels so different

um i actually think

that it's a lot of little things that

add up

so part of it's the chrome the chrome

holds a vibe

i think we can't as much as chrome in

software tries to get out of the way

it still it causes a vibe so i think

that's one of it

one of the things a lot of the times

when you're on the zoom call you're like

in a browser

there's there's still a bunch of buttons

there's still some stuff across the top

etc so there's that

i think i i think facetime tries to be a

lot more neutral

so a lot of times when you're in the

call you're really only just looking at

the other person's face there's like not

a whole lot of other stuff on the screen

so i think that's one of the things and

and that's i mean i i think that's just

talking about the one-on-one

conversations that's

probably the main part but then of

course there's all those algorithmic

choices about like who you show

are you in a great show are you in a

great view or are you in the like

focus on person and you are a smaller

person

and what am i lighting up and am i

ducking the audio or not ducking the

audio i think all those things make a

difference too

they all add up you know like they it's

just like each of them feels like a

small decision but i think that all of

them wind up adding up to the experience

but the one that jumps out to me is the

chrome i think

yeah yeah and that's i think where the

attention of the designer really makes a

difference like if if the attention of

the designer is focused on building

something for

a corporate client then just all the

little decisions they're going to make

are maybe not even intentional they just

kind of intuitively

pull towards a particular direction that

sends some signal

versus versus the other one of the

things for facetime for me too is that

you usually connect um via your phone

number

so you can only facetime people who you

like have their apple id or their phone

number

and for me uh giving someone my phone

number is like a pretty intimate thing

to do i don't give my phone number to

that many people

and so like facetime feels like the

place where i

only talk to people that i know pretty

well or i trust or

a friend of a friend at least so it's

kind of like tied back to that entrance

piece where it's like how do how do you

come into this medium and the answer for

this one is like

a very a specific number

yeah like why are you even here how did

you hear about this

spot totally and so this is actually a

really good segue into the last

thing that i wanted to to dive into with

you which is that

i think i'm a really big believer that

the moment by moment decisions that you

make

in your life are really what determine

how you spend your time at a macro level

um so if you you can have like a really

grand theory

but if the small choices you make day to

day don't actually align with those

theories

you're not going to actually get those

results

so you know let's say zoom really wanted

to commit to

making zoom feel fun and uh whimsical

but they keep making the same choices

that they've been making i just don't

think they're gonna really

make that much progress um or like

concretely they've added

the backgrounds which and and the

filters which are a great first step and

i

enjoy using them but roughly everything

else

in the app actively contradicts those

things in my opinion

and so it doesn't really they kind of

feel weird to like paste on a background

and zoom it feels a little inappropriate

for for the space it's like if you

showed up to

a work conference wearing a halloween

costume it just feels weird

so so i'm curious like what like does

my minute methods and practices that

have guided your work

when you're either working individually

or when you're working in a team

um to to make sure that the things that

you're building actually align with

with what you have in your head so you

know how like in game design um

there are sort of small medium long and

potentially longer loops

of uh of of things that you're keeping

track of right so like i don't know

let's just use a simple example like

pokemon go

you know you're catching a little

pokemon everywhere you're going but then

like every once in a while

like you like get enough for

some level up right so that's like the

medium loop there's like a small thing

there's the medium thing and then

there's like the bigger thing

it's like i totally agree with you that

like the little tiny choices add up and

then but also the medium-sized ones and

the long ones and so i try

to create structures so that the long

ones

are explicit and they're spoken about

and we're checking against them

right that's like the ideal way

especially if you've got like a team

because otherwise people don't

necessarily prioritize things the same

way

to um to come up with those outcomes for

my personal life

i think it's like can be a lot less like

explicit and

maybe that's good or not but i i think a

lot of the times like the things that i

gravitate towards

wind up being sort of like implicitly

understood by me and so and just

just by that by a side effect of of that

being something that's deeply important

to me i'll gravitate towards it right so

it's kind of like if you hold a thought

in your mind that you're like okay like

i want things to feel this certain way

and then you're faced with a decision

and you're like does this feel a certain

way is it going to add to this thing or

not

um then it's easier to make that

decision because you know what you're

trying to

head towards in the long term and then

making sure that you're checking against

it in the small medium and long term i

think

really helps kind of like designing a

little game for yourself out of how you

live your life so

to be super super super nerdy about it

for a second like

one thing i try and do is like every

year

i have a couple of overarching things

that i know are going to be important to

me that

year and i break those down in a

spreadsheet because i'm

dork and

and think about like what are actual

concrete things that i'm

working on that go towards that thing

and then i like literally

write down what things would happen as

evidence of those things

and then create a structure for myself

so that week over week i'm looking to

see

how i'm doing on that thing and that way

if something is at least like failing

silently i know about it

it's not so silent because you know once

a quarter

i'm going through and looking how i did

for the entire last quarter

on my like weekly way of looking at

things and seeing whether or not you

know there's like gigantic pockets of

what i want to be working towards that

like aren't happening

i've made this structure not because i'm

i'm like a weird combination of person

and that i'm like naturally on the one

hand like extremely chaotic i think that

like

the lateral connecting and thinking um

is happening a lot and i

i can be extremely generative and have

more ideas that i could possibly execute

on

like in one lifetime all of those things

are no problem but on the flip side like

i need structure

otherwise i'll just go off in a

gazillion directions so these structures

that i'm creating are like an attempt

to find something that i can relax into

and allow me to feel reassured that i'm

like checking in on things and the

things are overall on a day-to-day basis

like you said going towards the things

that i want they're hard for me to

maintain it's almost like a challenge

for myself

but it's also reassuring because then i

i feel less

ungrounded i guess i feel just like i

have something to come back to like

this past me created this thing that's

going to help current me

uh check in and make sure that that all

of my actions are adding up to the

things i want them to add add up

that resonates really hard with me where

a lot of my friends tell me that i'm the

most organized person they know and i'm

like

that's only because i'm also extremely

chaotic and so

if i if i didn't do that i would get

truly nothing done it's always hard to

tell what's going on in other people's

minds you know

it's only it's just your subjective

experience but to me it feels chaotic as

heck what what are some of the things

that

concretely that have gone into that

spreadsheet one of the ones that's maybe

really fun

to mention is um if i have

a creative urge to immediately follow up

on it even if

even if it's like at a stupid time in a

stupid place that doesn't make any sense

just do it just go with

it because i think that also as a person

who is like a little bit chaotic and

generative

you and especially as somebody who's

like been you know employed for a long

time in various jobs like i had

developed strong muscle of suppressing

that suppressing those creative urges

when i was like i just want to do this

random thing right now and then this

other voice would be like you can't do

that right now you need to focus on this

thing that needs to get done by tomorrow

right so last year i was like what if

i just do it

and so like week over week i was like

did i do it did i just go with some

random creative urge

i guess one of the ones that's more

recent that maybe could be exciting for

you to hear because we haven't talked

about this yet has to do with like

writing i have so many goals about

writing this year i think that one of

the things that's been a challenge for

me has always been

i just work on stuff and i'm just doing

that and i'm never

documenting it or publicizing it or like

publishing

my thinking behind it and so i feel like

um

there's a lot of the thinking that i put

into things that i haven't taken the

time to like write down

uh in a way that is much more digestible

and articulate for other people to

internalize

with that with that first one you said

by the way the um

the the goal of like letting yourself do

whatever creative thing you you feel

like doing in the moment and making sure

that was like a lot more um meta than i

was expecting from the list but

i really like it yeah i called it flex

creative muscle when i want to

and um and it was just it was funny to

see some of the things i did

like it was not not expected

last year for example at some point in

time i was like

sometimes i hear something and i love it

and there's an emoji that has hearts

over the eyes and i really want an emoji

that has a heart

and an ear so i just drew one and like

put it out there that was it

that that was that was that was the

project for the week

so i want to leave with one one last

question before we wrap things up

which is when you have these creative

ideas that you sort of let yourself fall

into

or when you're faced with a bigger

design problem

what does an afternoon of prototyping

actually look like like

you have a blank page or a blank

whatever in front of you like what

what do you do one of the things that

i've noticed that i do

over time is i build up a lot of

little it's almost like the equivalent

of having like a

a little tool box that you might carry

around if you are somebody who works on

physical things

i feel like i have a digital version of

that that i try and build up over time

and i have a lot of aids to try and

context switch especially now because

i'm working on a bunch of different

projects like i'm not working on

you know just one thing all of the time

and so

you know sitting down involves opening

up whatever the aid is

that i've created for myself whether

that's like notes on a piece of paper

or a bunch of drawings or some

conversation i've had with someone

wherever that is

i need to load that in first to like

recreate the context of what i was

trying to do

and then usually you know i don't

tend to actually start with something

blank if i do

it's only after i've gathered a bunch of

things that i like that are related to

it

you know so for example i guess it isn't

necessarily like prototyping

in the motion sense or an interaction

sense but in a visual sense

if i'm working on doing a visual

language that looks like japanese

stationery

i'll collect a whole bunch of shots of

what i like of japanese stationery and

start from that and then similarly

you know if it is a prototyping thing um

that's interactive

if it's digitally interactive or if it's

like a in real life

thing i'll still be thinking about a

whole bunch of

other sources that will feed into that

to remix

and then you know i think everything

from there goes into it depends a lot on

the medium

with prototyping i'm thinking a lot

about like what am i trying to learn

here

if what i'm trying to do is land on an

interaction that feels really great then

i'm going to just like

tunnel in and focus just on that one

interaction if what i'm trying to

prototype is like a flow

then i'm going to try and do the minimum

amount of

fidelity necessary to see whether or not

a flow is going to make sense

and by minimum amount of fidelity i

don't mean like

just make it look like i mean like

what is the closest

approximation that i can create using

the least amount of

effort time tools etc to learn whether

or not this is actually going to be

a good idea or learn whatever it is that

i need to learn about whether or not

something's going to work or not

you know i think that there's always

been this debate of like you know how

much to involve

everybody that's going to be using the

thing how much you're just drawing from

your own inspiration

your gut and your intuition um how much

you're iterating and testing along the

way with people

and you know it's interesting having

worked in different organizations with

very wildly different schools of thought

at apple we did not do user testing

the way that you know it's like almost

the opposite of google and doing the a b

testing with

i don't know how many shades of blue it

was and i kind of

wish that that debate wasn't so much

like an either or

you know i think that on the one hand

i've seen people not work enough

from intuition like not be not develop

or be hard enough on their own designs

from an intuitive standpoint not have

any sort of vision or opinion at all

which i think is not great and on the

other hand i've seen people

lean too much into that and not do any

kind of testing and not talk to anybody

and just kind of be too

too much in the ivory tower and then

just like fall flat

so i think it has to be a little bit of

both and there isn't like any sort of

magic formula and it's almost like kind

of a waste of time to debate like either

or

like so many things are very debating

either or which

you know almost nothing works that way

so

yeah yeah um so it's a little bit of a

bunch of stuff i

i think um and then the other thing is

that oftentimes

in my past a lot of the prototyping

involved you know like a build up of the

little pieces that were gonna go into it

um over time and then sort of like you

know you'd have

a lot of drawings maybe to begin with

and then you'd slowly start bringing

those into some other format and then

and this is just specific to digital

prototyping

and then you know have like a little

test

prototype on one side that just checked

for that like one little

key piece of code using something

simpler

then building it into something a little

bit more complex i'd say

almost always at the end of the day when

i look at something that i've done

i have trouble believing that i did it

because the whole time

it was a series of smaller steps to get

there and if i look back for example

like code that i've written it's hard to

believe that i wrote all that code and i

can't remember having written it or i

look at things that i've drawn and i

can't remember having drawn all that

because i really try and break it down

into those you know the smaller steps

along the way otherwise it's too

overwhelming

i really want to keep asking you

questions um but this has been a really

fun

conversation melee and i'm really glad

that we we took the time to do this so

thank you so much

and i really hope to see you in person

sometime too soon yeah

likewise thank you so much for having me

on it's been it's been super fun and

like

looking forward to it next time we have

a chance to chat