No, l'INPS non è uno schema Ponzi

Mr. RIP
22 Mar 202409:06

Summary

TLDRThe speaker discusses the nature of the pension system, refuting the claim that it is a Ponzi scheme. They explain that pensions are funded by workers' contributions and are designed to provide a modest return in retirement, based on life expectancy and social contributions. The speaker argues for a more transparent system, like the Swiss second pillar, where individuals can see their balance and receive a pension directly related to their contributions.

Takeaways

  • 🤔 The speaker expresses skepticism about the characterization of the pension system as a Ponzi scheme, arguing that it is not inherently bad and is based on the concept of contribution and benefit.
  • 💡 The pension system is described as a mechanism where contributions are made by workers, and benefits are drawn from the system by those no longer in active employment, aiming for a balance between equity and sustainability.
  • 📉 The speaker acknowledges that the traditional pension model was based on assumptions that are no longer valid, such as a stable ratio of workers to retirees and a fixed life expectancy.
  • 👴 The aging population and increased life expectancy are highlighted as significant challenges to the sustainability of the pension system, which were not accounted for when the system was established.
  • 💰 The transition from a retributive to a contributive system is discussed, where the focus shifts from a direct correlation between contributions and benefits to a more complex system influenced by life expectancy and social factors.
  • 🌐 The speaker mentions that the pension system is not just about retirees but also serves to provide for those who have never worked, suggesting a broader social safety net function.
  • 📊 The concept of a 'second pillar' in the pension system is introduced, hinting at the existence of alternative models such as the Swiss pension system, which might offer a more individualized and transparent approach.
  • 💼 The idea of a pension system being managed by the state is challenged, with the speaker expressing a preference for a system where individuals have direct control over their contributions and future benefits.
  • 📈 The speaker discusses the potential benefits of deferred taxation in the pension system, where contributions are made tax-free and taxed later at withdrawal, possibly at lower rates.
  • 🚫 The speaker criticizes the inefficiency and high administrative costs of the pension system, suggesting that a simpler, more direct system might be more effective and less costly.
  • 🌿 The notion of self-sufficiency in old age is briefly considered, with the speaker expressing a personal preference for a system where individuals are responsible for their own financial security in retirement.

Q & A

  • What is a pension system?

    -A pension system is a structure where individuals contribute in some way and later withdraw benefits, typically from those who are working. The contributions are made by active workers who allocate a portion of their compensation into a fund from which retired individuals, who are no longer able to work, draw money.

  • Why was the old pension system considered unsustainable?

    -The old pension system was considered unsustainable because it was based on a society with a high ratio of workers to retirees, around 1 to 3. It did not account for increased life expectancy and the aging population. The system was flawed from its inception as it assumed constant parameters, such as people retiring at 60 and dying at 70, with many young workers and few elderly people, which is not the case today.

  • How did the pension system transition from a retributive to a contributive model?

    -The pension system transitioned from a retributive model, where the elderly received an amount close to their last salary, to a contributive model. In the contributive model,理论上, individuals have a 'drawer' where they put money and later receive a monthly pension or annuity, the expected value of which corresponds to what they have contributed, minus a social quota.

  • What is deferred taxation in the context of the pension system?

    -Deferred taxation in the context of the pension system refers to the fact that the money individuals contribute to the pension system is not taxed at the time of contribution. Instead, the state graciously does not tax these contributions, but they are taxed later when the individual starts receiving their pension benefits.

  • How does the speaker feel about the need for a pension system?

    -The speaker expresses a personal opinion that a pension system is not strictly necessary and that they would gladly do without it. However, they acknowledge the social aspect of pensions, which also serve to provide for those who have never worked, and recognize that a system is needed to avoid individuals becoming a social burden.

  • What is the speaker's view on the Swiss second pillar pension system?

    -The speaker views the Swiss second pillar pension system as the only one that makes sense. They prefer a system where they can see their balance and, in old age, receive benefits based on clear formulas, similar to the Swiss pension fund system.

  • What is the speaker's stance on the idea that the pension system is a Ponzi scheme?

    -The speaker refutes the idea that the pension system is a Ponzi scheme. They explain that a Ponzi scheme promises exceptional returns not generated through investments but solely from new entrants' money. In contrast, the pension system does not promise absurd returns; instead, it provides benefits that are generally less than the contributions made.

  • How does the speaker describe the accounting aspect of the pension system?

    -The speaker describes the accounting aspect of the pension system as a fungible process where the money contributed today is used to pay the pensions of others. It is not a direct return of the same money but rather an accounting entry where the contributions are matched with the benefits payable to retirees.

  • What are the speaker's thoughts on the role of general taxation in funding pensions?

    -The speaker suggests that pensions could be funded through general taxation instead of specific contributions to the pension system. They question why the INPS (Italian National Institute of Social Security) needs to pay pensions and considers that the system could be funded with general taxes.

  • How does the speaker view the social aspect of pensions for those who have never worked?

    -The speaker acknowledges that pensions also serve a social purpose by providing a pension to those who have never worked. However, they question whether this should be specifically funded through the pension system or could be covered by general taxation.

  • What is the speaker's opinion on the management of the pension system?

    -The speaker criticizes the management of the pension system, mentioning the high number of employees and the associated costs. They suggest that these costs could be reduced and that the system could be more efficiently managed.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Understanding the Pension System

This paragraph discusses the nature of the pension system, contrasting it with a Ponzi scheme. It explains that a pension system is a social contract where contributions are made by the working population and benefits are drawn by those no longer active. The speaker clarifies that the pension system is not a Ponzi scheme because it is not based on constant high returns promised without investment. Instead, it is a sustainable model designed to provide for retirees based on the contributions made and the demographic ratios of the working population. The paragraph also touches on the historical evolution of the pension system, highlighting the challenges posed by an aging population and the shift from a pay-as-you-go to a funded system.

05:03

💡 The Role of the State in Pension Systems

The second paragraph delves into the role of the state in managing pension systems. It explores the idea that states intervene to ensure that individuals are not left without support in their old age. The speaker discusses the concept of deferred taxation, where contributions to the pension system are tax-free until retirement, at which point they are taxed at a different rate. The paragraph also addresses the notion that while some may prefer a system where they can see their individual savings balance, the current system is more complex, involving collective management of funds. The speaker expresses a preference for a clearer, more individualized system but acknowledges the necessity of a collective pension system for social stability.

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Ponzi Scheme

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investing scam promising high rates of return with little risk to investors. The scheme generates returns for early investors by acquiring new investors, rather than from legitimate business activities or investment. In the video, the speaker clarifies that the pension system is not a Ponzi scheme because it does not promise unrealistic returns and operates on the principle of contributions and benefits based on societal needs and actuarial calculations.

💡Pension System

A pension system is a social insurance program designed to provide financial support to individuals no longer capable of working, typically due to age. The video discusses the evolution of pension systems from pay-as-you-go to funded systems, highlighting the importance of balancing contributions and benefits to ensure sustainability.

💡Equity

In the context of the video, equity refers to the principle of fairness in the distribution of pension benefits, ensuring that retirees receive support proportional to their contributions and societal needs. The speaker discusses how the initial pension systems were managed on the basis of social equity, providing a safety net for the elderly who could no longer work.

💡Contributive System

A contributive system refers to a type of pension plan where individuals contribute a portion of their earnings during their working years to finance their retirement benefits. The video explains that in such a system,理论上, the money put in by workers is saved and later used to provide them with a pension based on life expectancy and contribution amounts.

💡Actuarial

Actuarial refers to the mathematical analysis and interpretation of uncertain future events, particularly in the context of insurance and pension systems. In the video, the speaker mentions actuarial calculations as a means to estimate the expected value of pensions based on life expectancy and contribution amounts.

💡Deferred Taxation

Deferred taxation is a tax policy that allows individuals to postpone paying taxes on certain types of income until a later date. In the context of the video, the speaker discusses how contributions to the pension system are not taxed immediately, but the benefits received during retirement are taxed at a later stage, potentially at different rates.

💡Social Solidarity

Social solidarity refers to the mutual support and responsibility among individuals in a society, particularly in providing for those who are unable to work, such as the elderly or disabled. The video mentions the role of the pension system in not only supporting retirees but also those who have never worked, illustrating the concept of social solidarity.

💡Fiscal Policy

Fiscal policy refers to the government's use of taxation and spending to influence the economy. In the video, the speaker contemplates the idea that pension benefits for those who have not contributed could be funded through general taxation rather than specific pension contributions, reflecting on different fiscal policy choices.

💡Sustainability

Sustainability in the context of the video refers to the ability of the pension system to maintain its financial stability and continue providing benefits over the long term. The speaker points out the challenges of an aging population and the need for the system to adapt to ensure its sustainability.

💡Investment

Investment in the video refers to the allocation of resources with the expectation of generating a profit or return. While the speaker clarifies that the pension system is not based on investments in the traditional sense, they discuss the theoretical aspect of contributions as a form of investment in one's future retirement.

💡Accounting

Accounting in the video pertains to the systematic recording, reporting, and interpretation of financial transactions, especially in the context of managing pension funds. The speaker uses the term to describe the process of tracking contributions and calculating the corresponding pension benefits.

Highlights

The concept of a pension system is explained as a way to contribute and withdraw funds in different manners, generally with contributions made by working individuals.

The traditional pension system was managed on the principle of social equity, where the elderly who are no longer able to work receive funds from society.

The idea was for individuals to be able to spend roughly the same amount in retirement as they earned in their last paychecks.

The sustainability of the pension system was based on a society with a specific ratio of workers to retirees, which is no longer feasible due to increased life expectancy and a growing retiree population.

The shift to a contributory system is mentioned, where funds are put into a 'box' and later withdrawn as a monthly pension based on life expectancy and a social quota.

The speaker questions the necessity of a pension system, expressing a preference for a system where they could see their balance and withdraw a calculated amount in retirement.

The role of the state in managing the pension system is discussed, with a libertarian perspective suggesting that individuals should be able to manage their own funds.

Deferred taxation is mentioned as an advantage of the pension system, where contributions are not taxed immediately but rather at the time of withdrawal.

The speaker expresses a personal preference for a system without pensions, suggesting that resources should be distributed based on individual needs and circumstances.

The concept of a pension system as a social safety net is discussed, with pensions also serving to support those who have never worked.

The idea of a second pillar pension system, similar to the Swiss model, is mentioned as a sensible approach.

The speaker clarifies that a Ponzi scheme involves promising exceptional returns not generated through investments but solely from new entrants' funds, which is not how the pension system operates.

The pension system is defended against being labeled as a Ponzi scheme, with the explanation that the funds today serve to pay other people's pensions and are not generating absurd returns.

The accounting nature of the pension system is described, where the money put in is fungible and used to pay for various social needs, similar to tax collection and distribution.

The speaker emphasizes the theoretical aspect of the pension system, focusing on the expected value of individual contributions and the system's management costs.

The concept of a pension system is challenged, with the speaker questioning its necessity and suggesting that it could be replaced with general taxation.

The speaker discusses the potential for a more transparent and individualized pension system, where contributions and future payouts are clearly visible and calculated.

The transcript includes a critical examination of the pension system, exploring its evolution, challenges, and potential alternatives.

Transcripts

play00:00

ho detto forse più volte che non reputo

play00:02

l'ins uno schema ponzi non reputo uno

play00:05

schema ponzi Perché Perché non è uno

play00:07

schema ponzi è un sistema brutto mal

play00:10

bilanciato il concetto stesso di sistema

play00:12

pensionistico è un concetto da da capire

play00:14

andiamo però alle basi intanto cos'è un

play00:16

sistema pensionistico è un sistema in

play00:19

cui

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il si contribuisce in qualche modo e si

play00:24

preleva in qualche altro modo in genere

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la contribuzione è fatta da chi lavora

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Chi è in attività lavativa cede parte

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della propria compensazione e la mette

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in un in un luogo dal quale Chi è in in

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fase

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di in fase di non più attività non più

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capacità produttiva prende da quel fondo

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ora per un tantissimo tempo il

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meccanismo è stato gestito da un

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criterio di diciamo equità

play00:54

sociale in cui l'anziano non è più in

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grado di lavorare e quindi prende soldi

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che la società mette là dentro un

play01:01

sistema che chiamavamo retributivo Cioè

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tu metti quello che riesci e poi prendi

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quello di cui hai bisogno tra virgolette

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un po' legato alle ultime all'ultima

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retribuzione Il concetto era vogliamo

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che in vecchiaia tu possa spendere più o

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meno quello che quello che guadagnavi

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nelle ultime buste paga Questo

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ovviamente era insostenibile si basava

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su una società che restava in un

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rapporto lavoratori anziani tipo 1 a tre

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non teneva conto di tantissimi problemi

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come

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la invecchiamento aumento della durata

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della vita non teneva conto del fatto

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che ci sarebbero stati molti più

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pensionati in rapporto ai lavoratori

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rispetto a quelli che erano quando il

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sistema è nato quindi era buggato alla

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nascita era ipotizzava che dei parametri

play01:50

importantissimi di questo sistema

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sarebbero continuar a essere costanti

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per resto delle dell'eternità cioè che

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si moriva a 70 anni e si andava in

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pensione a 60 e era un sacco di giovani

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che lavoravano e pochi vecchi che non

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lavoravano questo non è non è andata

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così ovviamente e si è switcha a un

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sistema contributivo in cui tecnicamente

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da un punto di vista puramente teorico

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tu hai un cassetto in cui metti questi

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soldi e poi li riprendi in

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vecchiaia Non riprendi quei soldi ma

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riprendi una mensilità un' annuit il cui

play02:28

valore atteso in base all'aspettativa di

play02:29

di vita più o meno corrisponde a quello

play02:31

che tu hai messo meno una quota sociale

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Perché da quello stesso calderone si

play02:35

prendono anche le pensioni di vecchiaia

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di chi non ha mai contribuito forse di

play02:39

invalidità Questo non lo so dipende dal

play02:41

sistema pensionistico non parlo di

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quello italiano specifico Tutto nasce

play02:44

perché lo gli stati non puramente

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libertarian cioè

play02:50

tutti suppongono che tu non Sii in grado

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di gestirti e quindi lo Stato deve dirti

play02:55

aspetta aspetta aspetta se tu prendi 100

play02:57

ogni mese na na na na na Prendine 80

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campa con 80 e poi te li rido in

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vecchiaia teoricamente non è una cosa

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obbligatoria teoricamente fino a Boh 150

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anni fa 100 anni fa fino a 100 anni fa

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la

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gente lavorava quello che guadagnava un

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po' lo usava un po' lo metteva da parte

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quando era vecchio non poteva più

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lavorare usava quella quei soldi lì Uno

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in teoria non è detto che l'umanità

play03:24

debba funzionare con sistemi

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previdenziali è uno step di civiltà Non

play03:29

lo so Alla fine son sempre soldi tuoi eh

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non è che sono soldi che che Piovono

play03:33

dall'alto è giusto è sbagliato non ho

play03:35

opinioni forti ma sono opinioni diciamo

play03:38

politiche filosofiche morali dal punto

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di vista puramente matematico tu metti i

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soldi in un luogo e li riprendi nel

play03:46

futuro Questo è il concetto ancora molto

play03:49

qualitativo

play03:51

e non ideologico Detto questo io la

play03:54

domanda me la faccio ancora prima a

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Monte Cioè abbiamo bisogno di un sistema

play03:57

pensionistico Cioè ci serve un sistema

play03:58

pensionistico a me il lavoratore non mi

play04:00

serve io ne farei volentieri a meno

play04:03

oggettivamente c'è un sistema sociale

play04:05

Nel senso che le pensioni servono anche

play04:07

a pagare una un' annuit una una pensione

play04:10

di vecchiaia a chi non ha mai lavorato

play04:12

Vabbè quello potrebbe essere fatto con

play04:13

la fiscalità generale non è che serve un

play04:15

sistema pensionistico perché deve essere

play04:17

quello pagato con contributi extra paghi

play04:20

amolo con con con l'IRPEF paghiamo con

play04:22

le tasse Quindi in teoria vediamo solo

play04:25

l'aspetto diciamo di valore atteso

play04:27

individuale metto in un sistema e mi

play04:31

aspetto di prenderne più o meno quanti

play04:32

ne ho messi meno il ter dell'ins che

play04:35

sono i costi di gestione dell'INPS l'ins

play04:37

avrà miliardo di dipendenti costerà

play04:39

l'ins ha un ter ok Questo è in teoria è

play04:44

la teoria ci Sà un altro aspetto

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vantaggioso che è il fatto che c'è un

play04:47

tax c'è una deferred taxation Cioè tu in

play04:50

teoria i soldi che metti in questo

play04:52

calderone lo stato ti fa la gentilezza

play04:54

di non tassart Eli e poi te li tasser

play04:57

più in là con aliquote diverse Quindi se

play04:59

tu tu guadagnasse 100 100 100 100 poi 00

play05:02

pagheresti più tasse che se guadagni 80

play05:05

perché 20 le messi nel calderone 80 80

play05:07

80 80 60 60 60 60 pagheresti forse meno

play05:12

tasse ma quello è ancora una scelta

play05:14

politica scelta fiscale non lo so Io

play05:16

personalmente sarei proprio per leviamo

play05:19

le pensioni ciascuno Pensa ai cazzi suoi

play05:20

il problema qual è che siamo umani siamo

play05:22

stupidi se noi potessimo avere tutte le

play05:24

risorse adesso di qualcosa Ce le

play05:28

sputtanerò tempo no tutto il tempo

play05:31

subito si sarebbe già sputtanato in Leva

play05:33

il futuro dovrebbe stare il resto della

play05:34

vita chiuso in casa aspettare la morte

play05:36

perché si è già giocato il tempo per

play05:37

fortuna alcune risorse ci arrivano un

play05:39

po' alla volta quindi in teoria la

play05:41

scelta di avere sistemi pensionistici è

play05:44

per è per evitare che qualcuno poi

play05:48

diventi un peso sociale l'ins Cer

play05:50

gravidanza e altri casi che a mio avviso

play05:52

non c'entrano un cazzo però non voglio

play05:53

non voglio cioè saranno discorsi che ne

play05:55

ne parla gente più brava di me Io poi mi

play05:57

dicono Ah parli di cose che non conosci

play05:59

a mio avviso mi piacerebbe che ci fosse

play06:01

un solo un sistema in cui io metto i

play06:03

soldi vedo il mio saldo e poi in

play06:06

vecchiaia mi verranno ridati con delle

play06:08

formule Com'è il secondo Pilastro

play06:10

svizzero Come sono i fondi pensione di i

play06:13

fondi pensione italiani non limps Ok

play06:15

quello è l'unico sistema che ha senso il

play06:17

resto dovrebbe essere fiscalità generale

play06:18

Se l'INPS decide di pagare le casse

play06:21

integrazione se pagassero da un'altra

play06:23

parte Perché de pagare l'ins Però al di

play06:26

là di questo qui perché non è un ponzi

play06:28

un Ponzi è un poni è un sistema in cui

play06:31

io metto dei soldi mi vengono promessi

play06:33

dei ritorni eccezionali che non vengono

play06:36

generati tramite investimenti ma solo

play06:38

coi nuovi soldi di gente che entra

play06:40

quindi un ponzi Come funziona Forse ho

play06:43

proprio già fatto un video a riguardo

play06:45

Adesso non ricordo un ponsi funziona che

play06:48

io metto 100 e mi viene detto ogni

play06:50

giorno ti ridiamo cinque che è

play06:52

insostenibile nessun investimento genera

play06:54

così ma non mi viene ridato cinque Io

play06:56

metto 100 e dico agli altri Oh guarda

play06:59

questo di dà cinque al giorno e altre 20

play07:01

persone mettono 100 e prendiamo cinque

play07:03

al giorno con i 100 che hanno messo le

play07:05

20 persone che andranno a dire ai loro

play07:07

amici ragazzi è incredibile ho messo 100

play07:09

e ogni giorno prendo cinque quindi gente

play07:11

entra mette soldi quei soldi vengono

play07:13

usati per ridare cinque a ciascuno Ma se

play07:16

nessuno più entra il sistema collassa

play07:18

scappano E quelli che sono entrati per

play07:20

ultimi hanno preso meno di quello che

play07:21

hanno dato questo è un ponzi necessita

play07:24

di un numero di persone che aumenta

play07:25

sempre e se Si fermassero gli ingressi

play07:30

collasse in teoria l'ins non funziona

play07:35

così non funziona

play07:37

così semplicemente non è così non c'è un

play07:40

rendimento assurdo promesso Anzi le

play07:42

promesse sono che prendi molto meno di

play07:44

quello che metti perché riprenderai a 70

play07:46

anni e prenderai un terzo di quanto

play07:47

dagni di stipendio quindi non c'è questa

play07:49

promessa se l'ins fosse composto solo da

play07:52

te sarebbe sostenibile se

play07:55

l'INPS fosse azzerato il buco e ciascuno

play08:00

mette soldi su un proprio cassetto che

play08:02

li può vedere li può contare ho messo

play08:04

100 c'è scritto 100 lì perfetto eh

play08:07

Quando vado in pensione moltiplicherò il

play08:09

mio montante per un fattore di

play08:10

conversione non sarebbe un ponzi non è

play08:13

un ponzi che i miei soldi oggi veng

play08:15

servono a pagare le pensioni di un altro

play08:17

in teoria è solo accounting Cioè tu hai

play08:20

un montante Se vai sul sito dell'imp e

play08:22

ti loghi vedi i contributi chei Messi e

play08:23

vedi quanto ti spetta di pensione È

play08:25

ovvio che son fungibili i soldi È come

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se io dico Ah non ho comprato il il pane

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con quei soldi perché il fornaio li ha

play08:31

presi e poi li ha usati per pagare le

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tasse capito quei soldi non è il pane e

play08:34

son fungibili cioè pretendi che quando

play08:37

tu metti dei soldi nell'inps

play08:39

l'INPS faccia un altro database in cui

play08:42

prende altri soldi che sono sempre

play08:44

numeri n

play08:58

database

play09:04

n

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PensionSystemsSocialSecurityEconomicAnalysisRetirementFundsPonziSchemesFinancialSustainabilitySocialEquityContributionsVsBenefitsActuarialCalculationsPolicyDebate