Valeria Kovtun - UnpackingTechniques Russia used to Implant its Lies and Narratives into your Head

Summary

The Silicone Curtain podcast discusses the escalating threat of disinformation targeting Ukrainian sovereignty and Western democracies, aiming to weaken support for Ukraine and destabilize societies. Valeria Kovtun, from the Zinc Network, highlights Russia's information warfare tactics, including intensified disinformation campaigns and leveraging social media platforms like TikTok. She emphasizes the importance of cognitive resilience and psychological defense against such tactics, advocating for a shift from media literacy to a more holistic approach that includes understanding cultural values and promoting democratic principles. Kovtun also underscores the role of communication and strategic messaging in maintaining societal resilience during times of conflict.

Takeaways

• 🌍 Disinformation is a strategic threat targeting Western democracies and Ukraine's allies, with the aim of discouraging support for Ukraine and undermining democracy.
• 🛡️ Information warfare is a significant threat to security, information security, and social stability, particularly in states that Russia seeks to destabilize.
• 🗳️ The podcast discusses the impact of disinformation on elections, referencing the 2016 US election and the ongoing concern as another election year approaches.
• 🏰 Valeria Kovtun, the guest, has a background in media literacy projects, journalism, and is involved with the cognitive resilience program in Ukraine.
• ⚔️ Russia's warfare doctrine includes a strong informational component, with disinformation campaigns intensifying during election years.
• 🎓 There's a noted change in Russia's tactics, with a more significant presence on platforms like TikTok and the use of vertical video formats to target audiences in their most vulnerable states.
• 📊 Russia's propaganda efforts are adaptive, using local context and building trust with communities before introducing disinformation.
• 🧐 The concept of cognitive resilience is introduced as a broader approach to counter disinformation, emphasizing psychological stability and the ability to act rationally in the face of threats.
• 🌐 The importance of maintaining and promoting democratic values and cultural identity is highlighted as a means to bolster resilience against propaganda.
• 🎥 The script mentions the role of media, such as the film '20 Days in Mariupol', in presenting an accurate and visceral depiction of the reality in Ukraine to counteract propaganda.
• 👨‍👧‍👦 The potential long-term implications of Russia's war economy and education system retooling are discussed, with concerns about the indoctrination of Russian children and the future of information warfare.

Q & A

What is the primary threat discussed in the Silicone Curtain podcast?

The primary threat discussed is disinformation and information warfare targeting Western democracies and Ukraine's allies, with the aim of discouraging support for Ukraine and undermining democracy.

How does Russia's warfare doctrine incorporate information warfare?

Russia's warfare doctrine incorporates information warfare by investing heavily in the informational space, using disinformation campaigns globally, and exploiting human psychology and media literacy.

What platforms is Russia reportedly more active on according to the podcast?

Russia is reportedly more active on platforms like TikTok, YouTube Shorts, and Instagram Reels, which are entertainment-focused and can serve as escape spaces for audiences tired of news.

How does Russia's propaganda use AI to create disinformation?

Russia's propaganda uses AI to create deepfake videos, fake voices of famous Ukrainian TV presenters, and distorted contexts to grab users' attention and sow disinformation.

What is the concept of cognitive resilience as discussed in the podcast?

Cognitive resilience is a concept that goes beyond media literacy, focusing on psychological stability, mental health, and the ability to act rationally, especially in times of physical threat and emotional vulnerability.

How does the podcast suggest countering the weaponization of information?

The podcast suggests countering weaponized information by focusing on values, promoting a clear understanding of what society stands for, and investing in personal agency to bring change.

What role does cultural values and belief in democracy play in the resilience process?

Cultural values and belief in democracy are crucial in the resilience process as they provide a foundation for individuals to hold onto their values and fight against those who seek to undermine their cultural identity or value-based systems.

How does the 'We Are Here' project aim to build resilience among Ukrainians?

The 'We Are Here' project aims to build resilience by explaining Ukrainian history and culture in a digestible format, helping to counteract Russian propaganda and reinforce Ukrainian identity and values.

What is the potential threat of AI in the context of disinformation as discussed in the podcast?

The potential threat of AI in disinformation is that it can be used to create highly convincing deepfakes and manipulate information on a large scale, making it difficult for individuals to discern truth from lies.

How does the podcast address the issue of trust in the context of information warfare?

The podcast addresses trust by emphasizing the importance of clear communication from authorities, the need for strategic comms to build and maintain trust, and the role of fact-checking and AI literacy in fostering an informed society.

What is the implication for information warfare as Russia moves to a war economy footing?

As Russia moves to a war economy footing, it implies that they will likely scale up and intensify their informational warfare efforts, making it even more aggressive and potentially more effective in spreading disinformation.

Outlines

00:00

😨 Disinformation Threats and Western Democracy

The script discusses the ongoing threat of disinformation targeting Ukrainian sovereignty and Western democracies, with a dual purpose: to dissuade support for Ukraine and to destabilize democratic processes. It highlights the importance of addressing information warfare, which has significant implications for security, social stability, and the integrity of democracies. The conversation underscores the urgency of the situation, especially in an election year, and the potential impact on Ukraine and Europe. The podcast 'Silicone Curtain' is introduced, along with Valeria Kovtun, an expert in cognitive resilience and media literacy, who has a background in journalism and has contributed to the podcast before.

05:04

📚 Media Literacy and the Challenge of Information Warfare

This paragraph delves into the changing landscape of Russia's disinformation campaigns, which have intensified globally, particularly during election years. It discusses the tactics used by Russia to exploit overconfidence in media literacy, especially among men in Ukraine. The paragraph also examines the shift towards more engaging platforms like TikTok, YouTube Shorts, and Instagram Reels, where propaganda can target vulnerable audiences seeking entertainment. The discussion includes the use of AI in creating deepfake videos and the spread of propaganda through various platforms, emphasizing the need for vigilance against these tactics.

10:06

🛡️ Cognitive Resilience in the Face of Disinformation

The concept of cognitive resilience is introduced as a critical tool to combat weaponized information and entertainment content. It expands beyond traditional media literacy to encompass psychological stability and the ability to act rationally, especially in times of physical threat and emotional vulnerability. The importance of understanding and promoting cultural values and democratic principles is emphasized as a means to build resilience against disinformation and propaganda that seek to undermine societal values and cultural identity.

15:08

🏛️ The Role of History and Cultural Identity in Resilience

The script emphasizes the importance of history and cultural identity in building a nation's resilience against disinformation. It discusses the consistent efforts by Russia to undermine Ukrainian identity and cultural heritage throughout history. The project 'We Are Here' is introduced, which aims to educate about Ukrainian history and culture in an accessible manner. The paragraph highlights the significance of remembering past struggles and the sacrifices made by ancestors to maintain the nation's sovereignty and cultural identity, which can inspire resilience in the face of contemporary challenges.

20:10

🗣️ Communication and Trust in the Age of Disinformation

This paragraph focuses on the importance of communication and building trust during times of conflict and disinformation. It discusses the role of strategic communication in maintaining societal resilience and the dangers of confusion, which can be exploited by propaganda. The paragraph also touches on the importance of having a unified policy for communication and the role of government in identifying and warning the public about potential disinformation campaigns. The decline in trust and the rise of disinformation are highlighted as interconnected issues that need to be addressed.

25:11

🌟 Amplifying Ukrainian Voices and Countering Disinformation

The script discusses the project 'We Are Here' and its efforts to scale up and reach a wider audience with the importance of history and cultural context. It emphasizes the need to work with regional content creators and to foster dialogue between different regions of Ukraine. The paragraph also addresses the challenges of countering disinformation with the help of AI and the potential of AI to identify and expose manipulations. The importance of AI literacy and responsible communication about AI's potential and risks is highlighted.

30:13

🎥 The Power of Documentary in Shaping Perception

The paragraph discusses the role of documentaries, such as '20 Days in Mariupol,' in presenting a realistic and immediate view of the ongoing conflict. It emphasizes the importance of such content in reminding the international community of the reality of war and the need for persistent and repetitive storytelling to maintain awareness and counteract the narratives created by propaganda. The script also touches on the challenges of promoting Ukrainian narratives to Western audiences and the importance of using the right tools and approaches to build support.

35:17

🛡️ Preparing for an Intensified Information War

The script addresses the implications of Russia's shift to a war economy and its potential impact on information warfare. It expresses concern over the indoctrination of Russian children with a distorted view of the world and the long-term dangers this poses to Europe. The paragraph suggests that Ukraine may have a future role in re-educating Russia to understand and acknowledge its actions, as part of a broader process of recovery and reconciliation. However, it emphasizes that the primary focus must be on winning the war and maintaining a clear understanding of the values and history at stake.

40:22

🌍 The Global Implications of Ukraine's Struggle

The final paragraph underscores the importance of Ukraine's struggle as not just a local conflict but a fight for values that are vital to the broader global community. It warns Western audiences that complacency could jeopardize the status quo they have long taken for granted. The conversation concludes by highlighting the need for active engagement and support from the international community, emphasizing that Ukraine's war is a defense of democratic values that extend beyond its borders.

Keywords

💡Disinformation

Disinformation refers to deliberately false or misleading information that is spread with the intent to deceive and manipulate public opinion. In the context of the video, disinformation is highlighted as a significant threat to Ukrainian sovereignty and Western democracies, aiming to dissuade support for Ukraine and destabilize democratic processes. The script mentions Russia's use of disinformation campaigns, particularly during election years, to influence outcomes and perceptions in favor of their strategic objectives.

💡Information Warfare

Information warfare encompasses the tools and tactics used to attack or defend information and information systems while influencing adversaries and preserving one's own ability to function. The video discusses information warfare as a core issue, emphasizing its role in threatening security, information security, and social stability, especially in states that Russia perceives as enemies or targets for destabilization.

💡Cognitive Resilience

Cognitive resilience is the ability to maintain psychological stability and rational thinking, particularly in the face of threats or challenges. The script introduces cognitive resilience as a concept that goes beyond traditional media literacy, focusing on the mental fortitude needed to resist manipulation and disinformation, especially in the context of ongoing conflict and societal stress.

💡TikTok

TikTok is a social media platform known for its short-form videos. The script points out that Russia has intensified its disinformation campaigns on TikTok, leveraging the platform's popularity and algorithm to spread propaganda. This highlights the use of modern, engaging media formats by adversaries to inject disinformation into the information ecosystem.

💡Deepfakes

Deepfakes are AI-generated synthetic media in which a person's likeness is superimposed onto another's with the intent to deceive. The video script describes the use of deepfakes by Russia to create propaganda videos, faking the voices of famous Ukrainian TV presenters and distorting news content to mislead audiences and sow discord.

💡Media Literacy

Media literacy is the ability to critically evaluate and create media content in a digital landscape. While the script mentions media literacy as an important skill, it also notes a shift towards cognitive resilience due to the evolving nature of disinformation and the need for a more comprehensive approach to psychological defense.

💡Strategic Communications

Strategic communications involve the purposeful planning and execution of message delivery to achieve specific objectives. The video discusses the importance of strategic communications in maintaining public trust and countering disinformation. It emphasizes the need for clear, consistent messaging from authorities to guide society during times of crisis.

💡Psychological Defense

Psychological defense refers to the mental and emotional resilience needed to withstand and counteract psychological warfare or manipulation. The script suggests that psychological defense is a crucial aspect of cognitive resilience, helping individuals maintain mental health and rationality amidst threats and disinformation campaigns.

💡Fact-Checking

Fact-checking is the process of verifying the accuracy of claims or information. While the script acknowledges fact-checking as a fundamental practice in combating disinformation, it also points out its limitations, as fact checks often lag behind the initial spread of false information, and their impact on reshaping narratives is minimal.

💡We Are Here

We Are Here is a project mentioned in the script that aims to explain Ukrainian history and culture in a digestible format. This project is part of a broader effort to strengthen national identity and provide a factual basis for understanding Ukraine's stance against aggression, serving as a tool for resilience and education.

💡Mariupol

Mariupol is a city in Ukraine that has been under intense siege during the conflict. The script refers to the film '20 Days in Mariupol,' highlighting its role in presenting a raw and immediate depiction of the war's realities. This documentary serves as a powerful counter-narrative to the disinformation and propaganda, offering an authentic view of the conflict's human impact.

Highlights

Disinformation is a threat targeting Western democracies and Ukraine's allies to discourage support and undermine democracy.

Information warfare threatens security, information security, and social stability, especially in states Russia seeks to destabilize.

The US being in an election year makes the outcome of disinformation campaigns particularly significant for global security.

Russia's warfare doctrine includes a heavy focus on the informational space, not just military force.

Russia has intensified disinformation campaigns globally, particularly during election years.

Russian propaganda exploits human psychology and media literacy vulnerabilities, especially through social media platforms.

TikTok and other short-form video platforms are new battlegrounds for information warfare, used to target audiences in their most vulnerable state.

Russia intervenes in political discussions in other countries by creating networks of semi-media outlets to spread propaganda.

Commercial propaganda and disinformation can exploit the algorithms of platforms like TikTok, which prioritize engagement.

Russia's use of AI in disinformation includes deepfakes and fake accounts to spread divisive content on social media.

Cognitive resilience is a concept that goes beyond media literacy to include psychological defense against manipulation.

Cultural values and belief in democracy are crucial in building resilience against disinformation and propaganda.

The project 'We Are Here' aims to educate about Ukrainian history and culture as a means to build national resilience.

Strategic communication is key in wartime, with a unified policy helping to maintain trust and counter confusion.

The use of AI in information warfare is a double-edged sword, with potential for both harm and assistance in identifying disinformation.

The film '20 Days in Mariupol' serves as a powerful reminder of the ongoing war and the reality faced by Ukrainians.

Russia's shift to a war economy includes retooling its education system to align with its strategic objectives.

The potential future responsibility of Ukraine to re-educate Russia to foster a democratic and peaceful neighbor.

Transcripts

Disinformation continues to be a threat to Ukrainian sovereignty, but now more than ever

is being targeted at Western democracies and the allies of Ukraine.

And that is for a twin purpose.

One is to try and encourage us not to support Ukraine to victory, not to supply the

weaponry that is required for Ukraine not just to survive, but to be victorious.

The other part, of course, is to undermine electoral processes and even the concept of

democracy in the Western societies.

Information warfare threatens security, information security, social stability, and

especially in states which Russia seeks to destabilize and which sees it as its natural

enemies. And of course, we are in an election year.

We have previously talked about the influence of disinformation on the 2016 US

election, but now it feels like deja vu, and we are coming up to that point again.

And now the outcome is more significant than ever.

An isolationist US will have huge implications, not just for Ukraine, but also

for the whole of Europe.

So disinformation and information warfare is absolutely at the core of the discussions we

should be having. Welcome to the Silicone Curtain podcast.

Please like and subscribe and definitely comment against the videos, because it does

help people discover the amazing, amazing guests that we feature on the channel.

Please do also check out the validated Ukrainian charities in the description.

It's never been more important than it is now to help Ukraine remain resilient and

ensure they have the resources that they need to fight against Russian aggression.

Valeria Kovtun is deputy project director at the Zinc Network, a cognitive resilience

program rolling out in Ukraine.

Valeria was formerly head at filter, the national media literacy project founded in

Ukraine. She has also worked as a journalist at BBC rail, and has been a senior

correspondent at major Ukrainian news organizations.

And I'm delighted to say as well that she's also been on Silicon Curtain twice.

She was one of the first guests on the channel and I'm really pleased to welcome her

back again.

Thank you. There is always something to discuss.

This information is evolving, so we'll always have topics for your podcast.

And I think the news media very much focuses on the physical warfare, if it focuses at

all. Because we also know that Ukraine is is a dropped out of the headlines some extent.

Unfortunately, despite the scale of the war, despite the significance of what's going on,

and of course, despite the significance of, um, Ukraine's commitment to democracy, which

is something that really is massively important in world affairs and history.

But we also know that Russia's warfare doctrine, uh, is is only one part military.

And actually the areas that supposedly are invested in more heavily, even is the

informational space.

So do you think that has changed at all?

And how much attention should we be paying to Russia's, uh, you know, capabilities and

resources around information warfare?

It has changed in a way that Russia definitely intensified its disinformation

campaigns, not only in Ukraine but all around the world.

It's a it's a big election year.

So Russia's meddling with that a lot.

And they have they're very hidden tactics, which very often play well with people's

overconfidence as to how they view their media literacy.

Uh, there is a tendency, let's say specifically men.

It's a Ukrainian case. They tend to claim that they listen to various experts and they

want a diversity of opinions, and they know that, that it doesn't impact them.

But the human psychology is built in a way that even if you declare that something

doesn't impact you, it doesn't necessarily mean sell.

So I think it's, uh, how Russian propaganda plays very well with this kind of mindset.

And of course, Russia's, uh, in its present on various platforms and, uh, current

developments I'm seeing is that it's a way more active on TikTok and, uh, in the

vertical format, videos such as YouTube shorts, Instagram Reels, which are meant to

entertain and to serve as an escape space for Ukrainians, and to general audiences who

are tired of news and rather avoid news.

And that's the place where propaganda and disinformation can target them in their most

vulnerable state. I'd say, uh, there are many other ways Russia is intervening into

other countries, uh, political discussions in Germany, as we know, uh, AfD, uh, in, in,

in the Latin America, they tap into local context by creating a network of semi media

outlets, uh, or like fake media outlets and who tend to report on the situation on the

ground about the life of local communities.

But in the end, in between, they share bits of Russian propaganda with regards to

Ukraine. Um, and it works super well because whenever when you build trust with the

community, it's much harder to feed in bites of disinformation and propaganda, as you

probably already know.

And. Well, I was about.

To say, I mean, this feeds into because you'll know my, uh, my day job is commercial

propaganda and trying to pick apart the algorithms for commercial reasons.

But we've been paying, you know, increasing, um, attention to things like TikTok.

And that's because, you know, commercial entities want to manipulate that and get

their messages into these platforms.

And quality is an extraordinarily important criteria.

Google, as a traditional search engine, puts a huge onus on the veracity of information,

um, and the quality of information, the authority that underpins it.

And we cannot find any equivalent in, um, in most social media platforms.

But TikTok is is like that, but on steroids.

Rather they're it's trying to feed people what they want.

And that can give rise to bubbles or ecosystems of information that are extremely

distorted. I wonder, in your view, whether that happens by accident or whether actually

this is also by design.

So clearly some platforms invest more money into moderation and making sure there's, um,

there's some filters in place and whereas others are probably don't, don't see it as a

priority. And if we look at X, it's definitely a platform where Russian bots and

trolls would be more active or like any, any agents that would want to undermine

democracy, they would probably be most active there because they have less filters

to spread their propaganda there.

But when it comes to TikTok, I think, uh, it's both.

I think one fact is that indeed, Russia intensified its campaigns on TikTok and it it

I see myself it's a massive, um, tons of, uh, fake accounts, uh, moderated from Africa.

You could even see on TikTok it's publicly available.

This information, uh, which, uh, use the same type of content that are interconnected,

that they post, uh, information like videos under same hashtags, like corruption,

Ukrainian MPs, everything that's meant to divide Ukrainian society and sow disbelief.

Uh, and uh, they clearly in increase their presence there.

And because they use something that's already emotional by default and emotional

content that says about some conspiracy theories or like secretive information,

something you would never hear from a authorities in Ukraine, it sparks interest in

the audience by default.

And of course it creates more views.

It leads to more comments.

Sometimes I see them creating profiles and trying hard to like post similar videos on

daily basis, and then at some point it works as you could clearly see the increase from

500 views to like 2 million views.

Um, because they keep trying and trying and sometimes it depends on the time and the user

activity. So I, I tracked and there was an interesting research by Ukrainian

organization Texty and also Ukrainian Institute of Mass Information, who clearly

say there are ways how Russia produces um propaganda videos with AI.

They fake voice of famous Ukrainian TV presenters, they capitalize on famous media

outlets, brands, and they post their fragments of their news bulletins, but in a

completely distorted context with a deepfake, uh, with with a generated voice and

with specific very bright headlines and subtitles to grab users attention.

And we see the increase of this type of content on TikTok, not just TikTok.

Tiktok is, uh, might be a platform where it, uh, appears, but then it slowly moves to

Instagram Reels and YouTube shorts and you could see the same type of content, um, being

spread on various platforms.

So I'd say this is indeed a change of the last couple of months.

That's absolutely fascinating.

And, uh, and of course, you know, mixing prejudice and disinformation with

entertainment actually comes from a long tradition.

Even if you go back to, to, uh, you know, mainstream media and entertainment formats

that would have been produced in the 90s and 2000, that came out of Russia and hugely

influential in Ukraine as well.

But what you're building, I think is quite fascinating.

And, you know, previously we talked about media literacy, which was the program you

were involved in before.

Now you're talking about a concept called cognitive resilience.

And very much in relation to this sort of, uh, I would call it almost a heart hard core

addictive platforms like TikTok.

Um, what is this concept of cognitive resilience and how can it help to really, you

know, fight against this weaponized, um, uh, information, but actually entertainment

content.

Yeah, I think it's rather my personal observation.

I see people talking more about psychological defense and, uh, different ways

of to protect their societies from.

It's not just disinformation anymore.

It's a it's much more than just, uh, a fake story.

I think, uh, as I said, um, it's Russia uses, uh, a number of methods.

It's, uh, it can be this fake media outlets that build trust.

It can be quite renowned Western experts who promote Russian propaganda narratives.

Sometimes they do it, uh, knowingly.

Sometimes they do it not knowingly.

But Russia uses the fragments, the contexts in which they say it and multiplies this

content, making sure that Russian audiences see it.

They kind of believe that West is supportive of Russia through this fake experts or

through the experts who indeed said something, but without understanding the

consequences of them saying it.

So it's it's a number of various methods, and Russia is good at using the local context

very well. And I think we we do not just focus on media literacy in this time, because

media literacy is a lot about understanding how media works, engaging with media

responsibly, sharing content, but especially when it comes to the Ukrainian context, it's

a lot about psychological stability, about mental health and the ability to act

rationally. At times when you're physically threatened and you you are vulnerable

emotionally. So I think that is, uh, the discussion now and lots of countries have

moved away from just media literacy to more overarching concepts of either cognitive

resilience, which sounds a bit, to be honest, complicated.

And we even when I tested with different audiences, um, seems like there is a bit of a

struggle, uh, in terms of understanding cognitive part of this Tum but when when you

say psychological defense or defense from manipulations and the ability to detect

manipulations, people are like, okay, actually it's really very useful and it's

really very much needed.

Whereas media literacy, as I mentioned previously, it evokes a bit of a it creates a

bit of a, I don't know, boredom.

People are just like, oh, media literacy sounds very academic.

I don't really feel how I can apply it in real life, but psychological defense is very,

very relevant for the work context and especially if you are threatened on daily

basis. Today we we had a massive rocket attacks again on Ukraine.

In this state, when you are unsure whether you'll be able to survive, whether your

family will be safe, you need psychological resilience.

And I think what I prefer myself is the word resilience.

And it encompasses many different facets.

Uh, where I think resilience to disinformation plays a huge role to.

And this is this is a fascinating area because, you know, fact checking, um, or

media literacy emerges from some of the early experiments in counter disinformation,

like fact checking.

But as we go through, I mean, it plays an important role, but its ability to reshape

the narrative and as you say, to provide resilience to people is is negligible.

And in fact, it's far too easy to ignore it because the fact checking usually moves at a

slower pace than the initial lie.

And people have sort of moved on.

Um. So that that that says that that's a technique that plays a role, but it doesn't

counter the holistic nature of, of, uh, of disinformation propaganda.

When it comes to what you're doing.

How important are things like cultural values and belief in things like democracy

and, you know, genuine values people may hold that are coming under attack or being

undermined. Is this resilient process also a part of people being able to hold on to their

values? That gives them some kind of certainty and fight against those that would

seek to undermine and destroy a much more sort of cultural identity or values based

system.

Uh, for sure.

Fact checking is is it needs to continue.

We can't leave without fact checking.

It's a fundamental, uh, thing for any for any country.

Uh, and the more fact checking organizations we have, the better.

I think it they prove themselves, uh, in the first few months of the war, I think they

they had all the necessary expertise in place to to debunk and all the Russian

disinformation 24 over seven.

Um, but it's not it's not the only way of tackling, uh, disinformation.

And I believe in this concept that you mentioned that we need to invest in values

and, uh, clear understanding of, uh, what are we standing for?

And that every person in the society can have the personal agency to bring a change.

And I think that's a bit of a struggle or not a struggle, but rather a vulnerability

that many European old democracies in Europe have is that after many years of, uh, having,

uh, democratic freedoms for, for granted, uh, they, they just got so used to it that

now they don't see the necessity to stand for it.

And I think it's important for the governments to remind from time to time that

it's it's not something that needs to be taken for granted.

And it's, uh, there's a war happening in the middle of Europe, which is basically the war

for this values.

And I, I like quite like Estonian model of psychological defense, where they put values

in the core and then everything else is just around this main kind of idea of democratic

values. Same with Ukraine.

Um, I it's not I think I'm, I like to reread Ukrainian history quite often myself.

Um, part of the, um, result of that is the project that we launched with the former team

of filter is the, the project called We Are Here, which aims to explain Ukrainian history

and culture in, uh, kind of, um, bite content in a more like simple manner, but

based on facts and on expertise from historians.

Uh, and whenever you read it or whoever would read the Ukrainian history, they notice

a very consistent effort from Russia to undermine Ukrainian identity, to destroy any

cultural heritage, to create their own reality, to physically destroy, um, and kill

Ukrainian artists, poets, whoever who, who would advocate for existence of Ukrainian

statehood, nationhood, Ukrainian language and culture.

And we very often tend to overlook culture and history.

And we we think it's something more for entertainment and fun.

But in fact, it's a, it's a very, very strong, uh, base for many nations because

without knowing what we are standing for, without remembering how many, how many times

the Ukrainian society was exposed to massive murders, um, from Russia, from the Soviet

Union, back then, from Russian Empire, without remembering it, it's very easy to

give up and say, well, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter where our borders are and who's in charge.

But in fact, it does.

And very often when we dive deeper into history and we find stories worth sharing and

worth, uh, emphasizing, such as the massive famine in Ukraine artificially organized by

Stalin, or massive relocation of Ukrainians to blend them with Russians or any other

massive murders that were happening throughout centuries on the Ukrainian land,

with the main goal to completely destroy Ukrainian identity.

Then people have this aha moment and they say, okay, it seems like my ancestors have

been fighting for so many decades.

They died because they were not happy to put up with this regime.

And they wanted their freedom and they wanted their liberties.

Why should I be the the kind of weakling and the the, the kind of the least resilient

person in this whole chain of events so that I would undermine the whole history that was

happening before me.

And I think it creates a very strong understanding as to why we need to stand as a

nation. And this is actually a very weak spot right now that Russia uses a lot in

their propaganda campaigns.

And I keep hearing this phrase, what are we fighting for?

If there is corruption, if there is not enough support from the Western Allies?

And it's very easy to use this vulnerability for Russian propaganda, because that's

something that's already there.

So our a part of our efforts is to keep reminding Ukrainians that it's not new, that

nothing will change if you if.

Negotiations have never worked, so there should be a different way for you to stay

resilient. And here are some of the role models.

Some of the very bright examples of Ukrainian artists, political figures who who

stayed resilient and who can inspire you.

So we do that.

And to be honest, sometimes when I read history, you don't really need to invent

anything. Just read history that's written in a very clear manner, which like without

too many complications because very often it's the case.

But if you read a history that's written by a professional historian, uh, you will feel

it yourself. You don't really need to to, to read, uh, complicated academic papers proving

you something. It's it's there.

So we just need to find the right stories to share.

And I think at this stage, Ukrainians also need more stories of how they are not

forgotten and how the Western world still keeps helping them and how they're still

empathetic. Because feeling the feeling of abandonment, the feeling that you're left

out, is not contributing to the general desire to win.

So I think this is the resilience to me.

It's no longer just fact checking, because disinformation is much more complex than

just, uh, you know, uh, taking something out of the context and presenting it in a

different light. No, it's about this whole sense of disbelief, this all kind of

question, what are we fighting for?

And I think, uh, we really need to look at, uh, Russian propaganda through this lens.

Not just through fact checking.

But not just interesting. That makes a connection there with with, uh, something I

discussed in an interview I did yesterday.

And that is, um.

A certain tendency.

Certain people who are looking at the appointment or the tentative appointment of

General Valerii Zaluzhnyi to the point of ambassador in the UK.

Some people looking at it through a, I would say, an internal political lens, almost a

peace time lens.

If you speak to many Ukrainians and they send like, I don't understand why they've

done this, you know, he's being isolated.

But actually, you could argue the reverse is true, that you're taking one of the most

visible and eloquent and strong figures that represents Ukrainian resilience, and he's

going to have a big role on the European stage.

And with one of the largest allies keeping Ukraine top of mind and projecting that sort

of resilience and that idea, you've just said there that we're not forgotten it.

It will help to to to emphasize that.

Yeah, there are many ways to look at it.

I, I'm not inside of the Ukrainian government, so I can't say what was the

motivation for it.

But part of the resilience and part of this whole all framework of psychological defense

or cognitive resilience is also communication and the media environment and

strategic comms environment.

And it's probably also led by not probably it's 100% led by the Ukrainian government in

general. So we clearly need to learn to communicate things better because

communication, which is again, often overlooked or not considered to be a priority

in the war time. But as the first few months of the full scale invasion proved,

communication is key.

When Zelensky appeared in front of a multi-million audience saying that I'm here

and I've never left and I'm going to stay here till, uh, and do whatever it takes.

Um, it was a very, very clear sign, and it was very much welcomed by the Ukrainian

society. And then the regular updates from the president, um, uh, one voice policy from

the Ukrainian government.

It all is important for the Ukrainian society to stay resilient, because if there

is diversity of voices and opinions and they're not in line with each other, I'm not

talking about, um, preventing someone from sharing something because it's wartime.

I think Ukraine balances quite well there.

It's democratic efforts with the necessity to sometimes, um, restrict certain things in

the work context.

But if there is no kind of understanding as to where we are moving as, as a nation, like

as a, as a state authority, what is our one policy for communicating things?

What's our direction?

If people are lost in this comms environment and they can't communicate things clearly to

the general public, it creates confusion.

And confusion. Is a is a, is a is a ground for the propaganda?

Uh, whenever there is confusion and dissatisfaction as to how the Ukrainian

authorities communicate in certain critical moments, Russian Russia is there to, uh, come

up with new ideas and promote the messages they want to promote.

So I think it's a values is important, but values is in the core.

But then there's everything else around.

Fact checking is part.

But then strategic comms is another part.

And strategic comms should incorporate pre banking uh pre banking techniques where the

local authorities, uh governmental institutions should be able to warn the

Ukrainian society as to which campaigns can be happening in the past.

They should be able and they must know how to build this trust.

And trust is a is something that is not coming in one day.

It's something that a nations require and states require years and hundreds of years to

build. And I think when the full scale invasion started, the level of trust to the

governmental authorities increased massively, specifically trust to the

president. And it is proven by numerous surveys.

And the research shows now the trust is declining and with a declining trust, there

is a growing disinformation.

Um, so I probably lost the question that you asked me.

No. It's perfect. I mean, that that that's a really comprehensive answer, uh, which puts

it in a wider context.

And your project, we're here.

Um, how is that going to scale up?

How does that get this very important concept across of the importance of history

and being grounded in context?

How does that scale up to actual individuals in the population, different demographics,

age groups and people of perhaps different political persuasions?

Uh, so for now, it's a project that runs with, uh, people who are volunteers.

So they pitch their ideas and they send us their articles.

We work with historians as well, where they, you know, again, pitch their ideas and we

make sure that the text that they write are digestible for mass audiences.

Um, the idea is that we we actually I'm very happy that, um, it's becoming a part of many

media outlets agenda.

I think I noticed myself that many of the news outlets, in one way or another, start

talking about debunking myths.

Uh, diving deeper into history, there is a huge project called More in Ukraine that, uh,

reconsiders the Ukrainian history through very artsy perspective by creating songs and

musicals. And I think that's the way to teach young generations our history.

And it works very well.

Um, our project, which is literally translated as we are here, uh, echoing the

phrase that Zelensky said at the beginning of the full scale invasion, we are here.

We've never left. So for us, it's kind of very symbolic.

Uh, we for now work with mainly younger audience, Gen Z and Gen Z and millennials,

uh, because they seem to be most active.

And from my previous experience working with younger people, it's something that you

receive. Um, it's like you invest and you can quickly receive the, the feedback and the

results of your work because they do not just consume the information you provide,

they act that you can not only change their attitudes with the content, but you can also

change their behavior much faster than with older people.

From my experience. So very often when we communicate with younger people, we see them

sharing this materials, participating in various activities, sharing these activities

with their peers.

So I think it's, um, it's the audience that's most rewarding.

But of course, it's hard to invest in everyone at the same level, but for us, it's

probably the priority.

For now, we would like to scale up.

We would like to work more with, uh, regional content creation creators.

As you know, Ukraine is a huge country.

Um, and, uh, I'm coming from the north of Ukraine.

Uh, my some of my colleagues come from the western Ukraine, and we often are so unaware

as to the history of our regions or the culture of our regions.

So creating this exchange, uh, of between different regions where people can hear, can

feel that they are hurt, that their voices are hurt is important.

And then creating some sort of dialogues is also part of, uh, building resilience in

Ukraine.

And uh, previous interview we did with the editor of Ukraina, that's another publication

which helps to bring to life the visual aspects, at least of different regions of

Ukraine. Well, let's turn to the opposite here, which is the ongoing weaponization of

information, because on the one hand, you're trying to create, um, in a world of complex,

truthful and nuanced information that can ground people and give them immunity or

resilience against disinformation.

At the same time, the tools on the other side to scale up lies and manipulations are

accelerating with the advent of AI and some of the things you talked about earlier, sort

of deep fakes and sort of conglomeration together various sources to try and create

something that sort of almost looks like an official media publication, but which is shot

through with, uh, with, with lies.

And then the technique, of course, will then amplify that around.

So you may not consume it firsthand, but you hear it through second and third hand and,

you know, the megaphone of social media.

With the advent of AI and the era in which is iterative AI, which is getting more and

more intelligent at reacting to, you know, how people consume this information.

What what's the real threat here?

Because my impression is that AI is going to be as bad as the malign influence or the

malign intent behind those that wield it.

Therefore it's it's it's nearly infinite.

If you if you look at the malign intent that comes out of the Kremlin, there's almost no

limits to what that is.

And finally, they'll have a tool that can express the full extent of that malignancy.

I don't think I can add much to the discussion, to be honest.

There's been so much has been said already and so much has been done.

But I think, um, it's very often that we address AI as a, like a self-standing body or

like some, some evil that, uh, that works in isolation, which is not the case.

It's an instrument, and it depends who uses it and which are the regulations.

What are the, uh, who's playing with this instrument?

Some. Some people even said in the past that, you know, increasing media literacy

means also that you're increasing media literacy of potential baddies like, you know,

bad agents who's gonna be there and post content on X and be the propaganda reports of

propaganda. So, you know, you can look at everything from that perspective.

I, I'm a bit I'm a bit more positive and more more optimistic myself.

I think that AI can be extremely helpful in identifying disinformation.

And we see numerous Ukrainian startups already using AI to help the Ukrainian, uh,

fact checking organizations and NGOs to detect manipulations and spread the word

about it. Uh, I helps Ukrainian startups and other organizations to collect information

about the vulnerabilities of the Ukrainian audiences faster and identify these

vulnerabilities and work with them, or help the government identify these

vulnerabilities.

So I think there is also a lot of potential.

Um, and one important aspect of all that is that communication and warnings from the

government, I see that the UK government is already doing it, warning of potential

manipulations regarding the elections that can be coming from AI, which is great.

I think it, uh, this is the work that needs to be done, and probably governments need to

develop their own set of policy recommendations as to how they communicate

this potential threats, how often they do it, in which manner this is important.

Um, um, but in general, I think AI literacy is joining media literacy efforts these days,

and it should be part of curriculum.

I think Finland is already doing it, as always, one of the most advanced nations when

it comes to media literacy.

Um, and they incorporate AI in their, in their academic, in their academy, in the, in,

in, in the school curriculum.

And it seems like it's working.

I, I clearly know that there is a danger as to how distrustful we might become, but if we

always look at AI in the negative light and we we sow this fear and we kind of warn

people that AI is going to be everywhere, and you should be careful and do not trust

whatever you see on the internet.

This creates the distrust, which is again, a very good ground for Russian propaganda to

work with. Distrustful people are very easy, uh, to a very prone to conspiracy theories.

And it's much easier to manipulate those who do not trust anything.

And looking back at history of Russia, they specifically targeted intellectual Russians

like those who had, uh, um, few degrees and those who knew a couple of languages.

They targeted them with the message that, you know, you can watch any media abroad, you

can watch BBC. How do you know that BBC is not lying to you?

Okay, maybe Russia today is lying.

We don't deny it. But anyone else is also, you know, can be a liar.

So this is a very dangerous tactic.

And I think we shouldn't communicate AI as the evil itself, but we should rather empower

people and say, look, you should just be aware what you shouldn't do with AI because

this is unethical. But also there are so many possibilities for you to improve your

skill sets, to improve your critical thinking with the help of AI.

And this is how to do it.

And another aspect we would touch on this in a future sort of conversation.

As we've been doing these interviews, it's become clearer and clearer.

And actually the whole point of this channel is to create a continuous output is to match

propaganda in terms of its cadence of content output, and also have repetition,

because propaganda repeats things over and over and over again, almost in a kind of

mantra or brainwashing approach.

So, you know, I think it's important to do episodes on the same topic and endlessly find

different angles, but come back to them again and again and again, because otherwise

it slips from people's consciousness.

Um, so that's a conscious effort.

And what we're doing is essentially creating alternative reality, an alternative reality,

which at least has the intention to be more fact led and reality led, um, rather than to

consciously manipulate and deceive.

So if we turn to sort of the idea of creating products, not just techniques and

narratives, but actual product, to create a reality that counters, you know, the reality

that, uh, that, uh, manipulations and propaganda are creating.

How important are things like 20 days in Mariupol?

The film that's come out recently because this presents a visceral, complex and, you

know, highly sort of, you know, uh, realistic view of what's going on.

It's obviously documentary format, but it's it's incredibly kind of powerful and

immediate. Are these essential kind of things to do and to create and to put out

into the information sphere as a way of countering, uh, manipulated propaganda

narratives and propaganda product?

I think it's a bit of a slippery path to say that we create reality, uh, because there is

one reality. Mariupol happened.

This is not us creating the reality.

The film is a representative reflection of that reality.

It's just putting the reality into digestible format for different audiences.

Russia creates not reality.

It creates it's illusionary world.

It creates a world which it wants to believe in.

But it's not this world.

It's just how it wants it to be.

But it's not the reality.

It just creates something.

So I think it's a it's some discussions I often have with my friends and colleagues as

to whether there is concept of truth or not.

Um, same same here, I believe.

So there is actual reality based on facts and there is created world which is non

existent. It's just purely artificially made up.

Um, so I think that the movie, uh, is a great way to remind the world that the war is

happening. Um, as it was rightly noted, everyone wishes in Ukraine we wouldn't have

had this Oscar.

We just don't want it this way.

Um, but I think this is what exactly what international audiences need.

This is a very cruel, brutal reality that Ukrainians survives and they live in it.

And unfortunately, there is not enough of this representation of this reality in the

news media, news news outlets, in the media these days.

So this movie is like a punch in the face as a reminder that it's not over yet.

Um, sadly, it's, uh, it's very often, you know, covered in this, um, you know, it's

something that Ukrainians might find a bit, uh, surreal in many ways because many of them

still shelter in it, still spend their nights in bomb shelters.

And then there's the whole new world with, uh, Hollywood stars, celebrities celebrating

their words and celebrating the movie, which is actually about suffering.

It's just hard on a mental level.

It's hard to digest how these two worlds can coexist.

But my stance is that we do not need to question things.

This is the world we live in.

We just I mean, we just need to be persistent and we need to find ways and tools

that work for different audiences.

I very often traveling in between between Ukraine, UK and Europe, I see that there is a

very understandably, there's a sense of disillusionment, a sense of unfairness, not,

uh, from from the Ukrainian side, but it creates a bubble where Ukrainians with their

own traumas tend to validate their traumas.

But when you go outside of the bubble and you talk to Western audiences, who's missing

the context, who might understand certain pains, but not all the pains, who might be

empathetic but not understand the depth of the pain and where it comes from.

It can be frustrating for Ukrainians to deal with this, and it creates tension and

aggression between international audiences and Ukrainians.

Is this the right way to to promote, um, to promote Ukrainian narratives?

No, it's not, because if anything is if something is built on aggression, it's not

going to go anywhere.

So I'm taking the stance that you need.

One needs to use the tools that work.

And if it doesn't make you feel right at this point, because your pain is so strong

and you and you feel like no one else understands it, leave it for later.

I think it's going to be a time when Ukraine will need to recover and deal with all the

mental traumas that we are going through now, but at this stage, the goal is to win.

The goal is to come out as a democratic society and creating fights with people who

can potentially be your supporters and who can advocate for this victory is

counterproductive. So I think the movie is a great way to do it.

It's a great way to remind it.

But as you said, and you rightly noted, uh, it needs to be repetitive.

It's not enough. Movie is on the news agenda a couple of days or maybe weeks or maximum

months. But we need to produce more.

And I think Ukraine is very capable of producing very strong and powerful content.

It's just very often that we miss.

We lack this lens, we lack the context that with which international audiences work.

And I think it's sometimes, uh, where we need help from international experts and

comms experts from abroad.

And of course, one area which Russian propaganda excels at is to create artificial

disputes is to create people who may appear to be organic actors or political players and

then get them to say, you know, radical things attack allies, attack each other.

And, uh, I won't mention any names, but I think we probably all know who we're talking

about here.

Uh, a sort of. Marginal figure in Ukrainian politics, which very much fits that mold of

really, you know, creating divisive conversations.

It's a very effective Russian strategy now, that kind of thing.

Plus the other manipulations we've talked about.

This is the last question here, but we see Russia moving to a war economy footing.

We see it retooling its education system, its administration, its industry, what's left

of its industry, um, to entirely bend it towards Putin's perverted, mythical

historical objectives and strategic objectives, um, which is which is aggression

and domination.

Now, what is the implication for information warfare?

Because if they're scaling up and tooling up militarily, this implies that they will be

doing an equivalent process to build up and make their informational warfare more

aggressive even than it was previously.

I'm very worried myself, and I'm particularly worried about the children in Russia now,

because when it potentially when the war is over, we will still have to deal with

millions of children who are exposed to Russian view of the world, which has nothing

to do with reality, unfortunately.

And I think, uh, now Russia intensified its propaganda in the schools.

It's, uh, it's operating all the schools operate on, on the sense of fear, and it's

absolutely catastrophic what is happening there now and this little access from the

outside world, it's, uh, I think it's a it's a very dangerous, not just for Ukraine, but

for the whole Europe to have a neighbor like this.

Look at Sweden. They a couple of months ago, they announced they started talking about the

potential of war, something that never happened before.

I feel like the nations start feeling, um, um, a need to have some sort of wake up call

for, for like the governments.

They want to emphasize that.

Come on, guys, just don't be chill.

It's it's no longer you're no longer safe.

No one is safe.

The war has been happening for many years with no end.

And I think it's, uh, it's it's really very, very dangerous that there is no

transformation happening in Russia there.

The, the people who could potentially be the drivers of change.

They are either abroad, in Russia, but even abroad, they are still paralyzed by fear,

which creates some, you know, lack of voices in there.

Um, I, I'm actually thinking and I've discussed that a lot with historians as well,

that it might be later on in the future.

It might be part of Ukraine's responsibility to re-educate Russia whether we want it or

not. We have this neighbor, and we will have this huge country with imperialistic

ambitions for the rest of our lives.

So it might be a part of our recovery processes to also re-educate Russians and

make sure that they understand what they've done, and they feel the guilt that they need

to feel, because it's not just important for us, for the democratic societies all around

the world, but also for Ukrainians who suffered enormous loss.

I think without the understanding that Russia regrets what they what it did, and

that millions of Russians understand that they were responsible for massive killings.

It's not just this one soldier who kidnapped a child and abducted a kid.

It's it's the whole society that failed at building civic society that failed at

organizing, uh, fair elections, that failed at many democratic processes.

And they want we Ukrainians just for their own sake, for their own mental well-being and

for the ability to move on.

They need to understand that this society recognizes its mistakes.

And I think only once it's done, then Ukrainians can look into how they can

contribute to potentially building this society in Russia who they want to be

neighbors with. But before this happens, I think all the efforts need to be put into

winning the war.

And and winning the war is only possible when we have a clear understanding in mind

why we are doing it, what we are standing for.

What's our cultural background, uh, what's our history and why we don't want this

history to repeat.

And we do not. I mean, Ukrainians more or less understand it, but they clearly need to

be reminded. But the Western audiences also need to be reminded that it's not just

Ukraine's war. It's a it's a war which protects some values that they might already

be taken for granted for for many, many years.

But it's not going to be a status quo if they just keep being passive.

That's an incredibly important thought to end on.

Uh, Valeria, thank you so much.

Again. It's a huge privilege to be able to gain access to your incredible insight and

experience. And I love the fact that, you know, you're not just talking about this

theoretically. You're running experiments.

You're running projects that constantly test these hypotheses with real people.

Uh, and, and the impacts that this has on them, uh, and creating this resilience.

Thank you so much for the work you do.

Thank you so much for your time today.

Thanks for having me.

It's lovely.

Hello, I am Slava.