Lessons from the Top Film Editors

Summary

In this insightful discussion, Steve and Sven delve into the art of film editing through interviews with renowned editors. They explore the importance of confidence and a strong point of view, while maintaining humility and focusing on the final product. Editors emphasize the collaborative nature of their work, the iterative process of editing, and the significance of storytelling. The conversation highlights the transformative journey from bad ideas to good ones, the need for organization, and the skill of storytelling as a muscle that can be developed. The dialogue also touches on the value of practical experience and learning from the masters, providing a rich resource for aspiring editors.

Takeaways

• 🏆 Confidence and a strong point of view are crucial for editors, but ego should be kept in check.
• 🤝 Collaboration is key; it's about the final product, not individual contributions.
• 🙂 Humble and service-oriented attitudes are common among top editors, prioritizing the director's vision.
• 🎬 Editors with outsized personalities, like Joel Cox, bring unique approaches to their work.
• ✂️ Editors should make their own creative decisions first, allowing directors to see their vision before adjustments.
• 🤔 Trusting the editing process is vital, as it often takes time and multiple revisions to finalize.
• 💡 Bad ideas can lead to good ones, as seen in the creation of a dream sequence in 'Arrival'.
• 🧠 Being open-minded and willing to re-examine ideas is essential for growth as an editor.
• ♻️ Editing is a continuous process of revision, influenced by context and scene placement.
• 📈 Storytelling skills in editing can be developed and improved with practice and experience.

Q & A

What is the significance of Lupita Nyong'o's Oscar win in the context of the interview?

Lupita Nyong'o's Oscar win for Best Supporting Actress in '12 Years a Slave' is significant as it led to the interview with Joe Walker, her editor, who was thanked during her acceptance speech. This initiated a series of interviews with top editors, providing insights into the editing process.

What is the first lesson mentioned in the interview about editing?

The first lesson is the importance of being confident and having a point of view as an editor, while also keeping one's ego in check to ensure the focus remains on the final product rather than personal editorial choices.

How do editors approach collaboration with directors according to the interview?

Editors approach collaboration by prioritizing the final product over personal preferences, understanding that it's not about their individual contributions but about what serves the story and the project best.

What does the interview suggest about the personality traits of successful editors?

The interview suggests that successful editors are humble, skilled, and focused on serving the director's vision. They are open to ideas and willing to put their director's needs above their own.

Can you describe the approach of Joel Cox, Clint Eastwood's editor, as mentioned in the interview?

Joel Cox is described as having a no-nonsense approach, dismissing the need for select reels and advocating for a more direct method of editing by using the best takes in the order they need to go.

What is the importance of trust in the editing process as discussed in the interview?

Trust is crucial in the editing process as it allows for the exploration of ideas, even those that initially seem unworkable. It enables editors to experiment and find creative solutions that can enhance the final product.

How does the interview highlight the iterative nature of editing?

The interview emphasizes that editing is not a one-time task but an ongoing process that involves revision and refinement over weeks, months, or even years, requiring patience and a willingness to re-examine choices.

What role does the relationship between an editor and a director play in the editing process?

The relationship between an editor and a director is pivotal, as it builds trust and understanding over time. This allows for more effective collaboration and the ability to challenge and refine each other's ideas.

Why is being organized important for editors, as discussed in the interview?

Being organized is crucial for editors as it allows them to understand and compartmentalize the material effectively. This organization helps in making informed decisions about what to include or exclude from the final cut.

What does the interview suggest about the role of reaction shots in storytelling?

The interview suggests that reaction shots can be powerful tools in storytelling, as they can bring the audience into the scene and reveal character insights without dialogue, making the storytelling more emotionally engaging.

How does the interview address the importance of practice in developing storytelling skills for editors?

The interview stresses that storytelling is a skill that can be improved through practice. By cutting scenes and understanding how editorial decisions affect the story, editors can hone their ability to tell compelling narratives.

Outlines

00:00

🏆 The Art of Editing: Insights from Oscar-Winning Editors

This segment of the video script delves into the world of film editing, highlighting the importance of the editor's role in shaping a film's narrative. It begins with a personal anecdote about Lupita Nyong'o's acknowledgment of her editor, Joe Walker, during her Oscar acceptance speech for '12 Years a Slave.' This leads to a series of interviews with top editors, revealing their approaches and philosophies. Key themes include the need for editors to be confident yet humble, to prioritize the story over personal ego, and to collaborate effectively with directors. The discussion also touches on the iterative nature of editing, the significance of trust in the editing process, and the value of patience and relationship-building with directors. A standout personality mentioned is Joel Cox, known for his work with Clint Eastwood and his straightforward editing style, emphasizing intuition over excessive technical tools.

05:02

🤔 The Power of Openness and Adaptability in Editing

The second paragraph focuses on the importance of being open to new ideas and willing to adapt during the editing process. It emphasizes the need for editors to address concerns raised by directors or collaborators without becoming defensive. The conversation highlights the value of being a team player and the significance of having an open mind, as illustrated by Kelly Dixon's advice to 'lay aside preconceived notions.' The discussion also underscores the iterative nature of editing, suggesting that even 'bad' ideas can lead to 'good' ones, as exemplified by the creative problem-solving on the film 'Arrival.' The paragraph concludes with a recommendation for an online learning resource, Skillshare, which offers courses on various aspects of filmmaking, including editing.

10:05

💪 Building Storytelling Muscle Through Editing

In this part of the script, the conversation shifts to the concept of storytelling as a skill that can be developed and improved with practice. Editors like Stephen Mirione, who worked on 'The Revenant,' stress the importance of understanding how to tell a compelling story through editing choices. The discussion explores the use of different editing techniques, such as jump cuts, to convey narrative shifts and heighten emotional impact. The segment also touches on the importance of being careful with reaction shots, as they can significantly influence how the audience perceives a scene. The insights from editors like Glenn Ficarra and Lee Smith highlight the strategic use of reaction shots to guide the audience's emotional journey through a film.

15:06

🎬 Practical Advice for Aspiring Film Editors

The final paragraph offers practical advice for those looking to break into the field of film editing. It emphasizes the importance of hands-on experience and the value of learning from practical editing exercises, even if they start with simple equipment like an iPhone. The conversation also touches on the significance of watching and analyzing films to understand the storytelling techniques used by successful editors. The segment concludes with a discussion about the benefits of learning from online resources, such as YouTube videos, and the importance of applying that knowledge through active editing practice. The conversation wraps up with a mention of additional resources available for those interested in deepening their editing skills, including a bonus video and worksheet for Patreon members.

Keywords

💡Editing

Editing in the context of the video refers to the process of selecting and arranging shots, scenes, and sound recordings to create a coherent film or video. It is central to the video's theme as it discusses the craft and philosophy of film editing. For instance, the video mentions how editors like Joe Walker and Tom Cross approach editing, emphasizing the importance of organization and understanding the material.

💡Ego

Ego, in the video, refers to the personal pride and self-importance that an editor might bring into their work. It is highlighted as something that should be kept in check, as the focus should be on the final product and collaboration with the director. The video stresses that while confidence is important, an editor must be willing to set their ego aside for the sake of the story.

💡Collaboration

Collaboration is a key concept in the video, emphasizing the importance of working together with the director and other team members to achieve the best outcome for the film. It is illustrated through the advice of editors like Dan Handley, who stresses that the focus should not be on personal glory but on the collective effort towards the final product.

💡Storytelling

Storytelling in the video pertains to the art of conveying a narrative through the arrangement of scenes and shots. It is a skill that editors must hone to effectively engage audiences. The video discusses how editors like Stephen Mirione view storytelling as a muscle that can be built up through practice, and how Glenn Ficarra uses editing to convey a story's midpoint without dialogue.

💡Reaction Shots

Reaction shots are a specific type of shot in film editing that focuses on a character's reaction to an event or dialogue. The video discusses the strategic use of these shots to convey information and emotion to the audience. It mentions how editors like Eddy Hamilton and Lee Smith advise caution with their use, as playing a line off a reaction shot can diminish its impact.

💡Organization

Organization in the video refers to the systematic arrangement of film material, which is crucial for effective editing. It is highlighted as a skill that editors must develop to understand and navigate the vast amount of footage. Tom Cross's advice on organizing material and figuring out what can be ignored exemplifies the importance of this concept.

💡Confidence

Confidence is mentioned as an important trait for an editor to have, as it allows them to make strong decisions and have a clear point of view. However, the video also cautions that this confidence must be balanced with humility and a willingness to collaborate, as seen in the discussion about keeping one's ego in check.

💡ADR (Automated Dialogue Replacement)

ADR, or Automated Dialogue Replacement, is a process used in film production to re-record dialogue in a controlled environment. The video references ADR in the context of Joe Walker's work on 'Arrival,' where it was used to enhance a scene that was not originally shot, showcasing the flexibility and creativity of editing.

💡Vision

Vision in the video refers to the director's or editor's creative perspective and the intended outcome for the film. It is discussed in relation to how editors must align their work with the director's vision while also bringing their own insights to the table. The video emphasizes the importance of trust and communication in realizing this vision.

💡Process

Process in the video refers to the iterative nature of editing, where scenes are continually revised and refined. It is a concept that underscores the video's message that editing is not a one-time task but an ongoing effort to perfect the film. The video uses examples of editors like John Refoua to illustrate how scenes are selected and refined like a gourmet meal.

💡Intuition

Intuition is discussed in the video as a seemingly instinctive understanding that editors develop through experience. It is contrasted with analytical decision-making, where editors can explain their choices logically. The video suggests that while many editors may rely on their intuition, they have also internalized the principles of storytelling and editing.

Highlights

Lupita Nyong'o's Oscar win for '12 Years a Slave' and her acknowledgment of her editor, sparking interest in interviewing editors.

The importance of an editor having confidence and a point of view while keeping ego in check.

Editors should prioritize the final product over personal editorial choices.

The humility of top editors and their dedication to serving the director's vision.

Joel Cox's bold approach to editing, rejecting the use of select reels.

The necessity of editors to trust their instincts and make decisions before director input.

The process of editing involves understanding that scenes may change over time and collaboration.

The impact of editors' decisions on director-collaborator relationships.

Lessons from Joe Walker on how bad ideas can lead to good ideas, as seen in 'Arrival'.

The importance of being a team player and addressing concerns raised during editing.

Editors should be open-minded and willing to re-examine their preconceived notions.

The continuous process of revision in editing and its dependence on context.

The significance of organization in editing and how it aids in understanding the material.

Advice for young editors to practice and build their storytelling skills through experience.

Storytelling as a skill that can be improved with practice, as highlighted by Stephen Mirione.

The power of editing to convey story without dialogue, demonstrated through Glenn Ficarra's work.

The caution required when using reaction shots to ensure they serve the story effectively.

The value of watching and learning from YouTube videos on filmmaking and editing.

Transcripts

"Sin? There's no sin."

And the Oscar goes to Lupita Nyong'o.

Joe Walker, the invisible performer in the editing room. Thank you!

The way this all started was, I actually saw the Oscars and Lupita Nyong'o won Best Supporting Actress for "12 years a Slave" and she

and she thanked her editor. I'm like, oh my gosh, I got to interview whoever it is that gets thanked

by the actress. So I actually found Joe Walker's Twitter feed and

sent him a message and said "I'd love to interview you." And he agreed and I just kept setting up these interviews, one after another

after another and

really learning a huge amount of editing. Some of which were a complete revelation to me.

Sven: Steve we're going to talk about some of the

biggest lessons that

we can get from some of the biggest editors. And let's get started with just the first one that stuck out to me...

which is: It's important that you're confident as an editor, have a point of view, but you got to keep your ego in check.

"Houston, we have a problem."

Dan Handley, Ron Howard's longtime editor, he said: "When collaborating, remember it's not about you. It's about the final product."

So many times, people make it about "oh, I made this great editorial choice.

I made this clever editing trick and it's got to stay." And they're not thinking about

what it means for the project and for the story. "I need a map."

So many of these editors, they're very humble people.

I think they're all brilliant, you know, almost everybody...

I've talked to almost every Oscar winner for the last 30 years and they're obviously clearly skilled.

But they all just want to do the best they can for their director.

Did any editor stand out to you as having an outsized bigger-than-life personality?

"I can feel your anger."

I did kind of get that sense from one specific actor...

That's Joel Cox who edits all of the Clint Eastwood movies.

He's the one that basically said: "Select reels are for sissies." He's like: "You don't need any of that crap.

You you watch the dailies, you know what the right takes are and you cut them in the order that they need to go.

You're done."

Sven: Yes, sometimes I love that when editors just say: "Well, ...

You know what when I do my editors cut, I'm just gonna do it my way."

"We don't need that. He said it three times." Sven: If I feel like a line needs to go

I don't wait. I like the idea of just giving it a good shot before the director comes in.

Steve: I certainly believe in that. Many people stated. "You can't edit thinking of what the director is going to want.

You've got to edit thinking of what you want." That's what the director wants of you.

But then when the director will see your editors cut. At that point it becomes another film.

Early in my dramatic editing career, I was doing the same thing you were doing. Where I would just cut out lines, you know.

Oh, we don't need these.

"I'm gonna take Kennedy's line out. And I think we'll double our suspense."

That I didn't think we're necessary and when I played it for the director. "We've got to have that information."

Immediately, you know as soon as I hit "play", the guy said: "Something's wrong with that. What you do exactly?" "There's the guy.

Now we just have a reaction shot. We eliminated his line."

What happened to my scene, where's those lines? "I love that line!" He was mad about it

and I explained that I didn't think that those lines were necessary that they were extraneous and... "I think it works better."

Maybe you're right. But let's do it the other way."

He asked me to put them back in and I put him back in. And over the course of several months

that he had a chance to live with them himself,

he realized as well, that those were extraneous and that by the end of the movie those lines were cut out.

But two things about that. One, I pissed off the director and I made him feel, at least temporarily, to lose faith in my judgment.

And number two, even if I'd convinced him that we didn't need those lines

he might have always wondered what it would have looked like if they'd stayed. The way I cut it

I didn't give him a choice,

I didn't give him a chance to see, this is the way he intended it.

So he never really would have bought into my idea. You have to understand that editing

It's not a one-and-done kind of thing. It takes place over weeks or months or even years. So just trust the process.

Sven: I guess it also has to do with the relationship you already have with your director and if you've gone through that process before.

Steve: But you built that relationship over years. "I'm curious.

Are you dreaming in their language?" Sven: So that sort of leads to the third lesson here: Bad ideas lead to good ideas.

Steve: One of the best examples of that, Joe Walker in my interview with him about

cutting the movie "Arrival". Denis Villeneuve, who came to him and said: "Hey Joe, I know we didn't shoot the scene,

but I feel like we need a scene where Amy Adams' character is dreaming in the alien language." If you speak multiple

languages

you might know that one of the ways that you really know that you're starting to get into that language is because you start dreaming

in it. Sven: "Yeah, I do."

Sven: There you go, and they wanted to show that amy adams was becoming immersed, kind of maybe dangerously, in the alien language.

But they hadn't, it wasn't in the script and it wasn't shot.

And

so Danny said: "What if we took this scene from here and this shot from here and this from... we dropped this one thing.

Can we put that in here?" And Joe is thinking: "There's no way this is gonna work.

This is the stupidest idea I've ever heard."

And yet...

He, you know, trusted Denis and even though it didn't work at the beginning, it made Joe think: "You know,

maybe if we got some ADR and we got them to do a

special visual effect shot to show an alien creature, then we could get it to work."

"I don't think that that makes me unfit to do this job."

And so what seemed like a bad idea...

became a great idea.

Sven: That's something that sets an editor immediately apart, when he or she will always address whatever

concern is being raised. And not try to talk their way out of it.

Steve: Yeah. Absolutely.

And just think about that from your own career perspective.

If you refuse to do a note, you've just become the guy that's not willing to be a team player.

Kelly Dixon from "Breaking Bad" and "The Walking Dead" says: "Be willing to lay aside preconceived notions and re-examine them in a new context."

I just think it's really critical to have an open mind at all times. And to remember, your collaborator and other people have ideas, too.

Sven: That leads us to the next lesson. I have here: Editing is editing. Steve (laughs):

I kind of wrote it that way because it seems like a stupid thing. But really it's one of the most critical things.

How often do you just cut a scene and it's done? Out of three thousand movies, there's maybe 20 examples.

Editing is just a process of revision and there's a ton of reasons why.

One is that it's contextual, right?

it depends on the scene in front of it and

after it. When you're originally cutting that scene you're cutting out of order and you're not

seeing your choices in the context of the scenes around it, right? Sven: I remember in your book,

I think it was John Refoua who said that it's like "every scene is a delicious

course and then when you put them all together, you can't eat them all so you have to pick the ones you really like."

Steve: That's a great quote.

Sven: Before we move on to the next lesson. I want to take a brief moment and thank Skillshare for their support.

It's an online learning community with thousands of classes in filmmaking, editing, writing, design, business, tech, and more.

I want to recommend a course by Marc Cersosimo who's a filmmaker and also works on Vimeo. And he did a great course on how

to shoot your own video resume by using a simple point-and-shoot camera or smartphone.

"The video resume is a video designed to show off you, to show off what it is that you do in a nutshell."

It's a 52 minute course that takes you through the concept, shoot, and edit.

So, the first 500 people that sign up through the link in the video description get a two months free trial.

Now back to Steve...

"Downbeat on 18."

Sven: Why is it critical for editors to be organized. Steve: When you're watching the dailies and

you're maybe building a selects reel, your brain is starting to organize and start the editorial process at that point.

"Not quite my tempo." Tom Cross, he said "The goal is to organize the material and understand it. A lot of times,

that's about figuring out what can be ignored." Andy Greeve is a great documentary editor.

He said: "The biggest trick is to compartmentalize, break it down into smaller chunks."

And that's definitely the way I feel about editing.

I need to be able to get to a point where my brain

understands the material. And then I can start to build the story from that. Sven: You mentioned Tom Cross.

I looked at his IMDB page and I realized: Well...

That's an editor who did a short, same short. Did the movie and then just his career exploded!

Is that how it works?

Like how can editors, young editors

get to that level where they ultimately want to be at, which is playing in the big league. "We'll never get it out now."

Steve: My biggest advice is the same every time anybody asked me that question: You have to just do it.

You have to say: "Okay my goal is to be a big time editor. What can I cut?

Maybe I can shoot some stupid little scene with my iPhone and then I'll try cutting that together." Great do it.

It may not look like what you want it to look like but your brain starts to understand how story works and how scenes are

constructed and what you need as an editor.

Sven: The next lesson, I'm really excited about it. Is that storytelling is actually a muscle that can be built up

Steve: Yeah.

Stephen Mirione who cut "The Revenant" said: "Storytelling is a skill that you can become better at through lots and lots of practice."

Joke-telling is

the shortest form of telling a story as a joke is always just a short story. What do you need?

so that the audience understands the punchline? The audience is kind of

misdirected and then the punchline snaps them back into a different direction. "The other day,

I was thinking, it's weird, I was thinking, you know, I tend to overthink things...

Then I thought, do I though? I mean..."

"Are we having the Afghan version of this conversation where in New York we would have gotten to the point five minutes ago?"

You need to edit things and then realize how your editorial decisions affect the story. Glenn Ficarra

talked about a character named Fahim. There's a scene where Fahim is basically telling Tina Fey's character:

"I do not want to work with you anymore." "No. Ok. Wait. Fahim?

I know I fucked up." "I do not think you do." "Hear me out."

And after he leaves there's a series of three jump cut close-ups of Tina's face: cut, cut, cut.

And it seems kind of jarring. But that's the whole point. Ficarra mentions that that's the midpoint of the story.

That's where the stakes change.

It's this very visceral way of showing the audience:

Oh, you know yet it almost shakes you as an audience when you see these three jump cuts. That's the whole point.

That's the storytelling in editing. That's completely told in editing. Not with a word of dialogue and it tells the story.

Sven: Okay, next one: Be careful with reaction shots. That was really interesting for me because I was like, "hmm,

I'm never careful with reaction shot. Steve (laughs): A couple of things.

Multiple people said that you shouldn't be on a reaction at certain times. Eddy

Hamilton said: "If you want a specific piece of information to go into the head of an audience

the character should say the line on camera." "And his team would be dead." "Yes.

They would...

That's the job." And Lee Smith said basically the same thing: "If you play a line off you're

diminishing that line. "You create the world of the dream. We bring the subject into that dream and they fill it with their subconscious."

"You have to be really strict in the way you edit whether you play a line over or off." Because I think that's just

emotionally much more interesting to be on the person who's listening than the person speaking. Sven: I agree. "That's what she had on that day."

There's a scene in "Mindhunter".

These two guys are

Interviewing who they think might be a serial killer. And there's just a local detective there.

And even though the scene is really between the suspect and the two

Interrogators and that local detective doesn't say anything. "She looks pretty tasty in that outfit.

Doesn't she?"

Tyler Nelson describes why the reaction shots are done the way they're done. "Come on, you guys don't think so?"

There's these great close-ups as he's like, where are these guys going with these questions?

"I mean by the time a woman has hair on her pussy.

You think, she'd be able to decide who gets a piece of it?"

"I mean, yeah, man. I've never thought about it like that before but yeah." "She didn't mind the you were older.

She probably kind of liked it." and then you start to see in his brain: "Oh my gosh, I see what they're doing.

They're gonna get it out of him. Holy crap!"

"When you picked her up from the bus, was she wearing this jacket?" He's acting as the audience going:

"Oh my gosh, this is brilliant!" "When Lisa's skull was crushed, that blood goes everywhere."

"In crimes involving blunt force trauma, it's almost impossible for the attacker to avoid getting his victim's blood on him."

So that detective's reaction shots bring the audience into the scene. "You want to take a sample?" "Well, can we do that?" "I

can arrange that." Sven: That's awesome. I have a side question here.

What do you think about watching these lessons of how to edit, how to film things, watching a lot of YouTube

videos? How helpful, is that really?

Steve: Oh... I think it's tremendously helpful. To be able to watch someone and see what the process is.

And the why of the editing. That's the real thing. And so many people will say like, "oh, it's all intuitive.

I'm like this intuitive editor and I just feel it in my gut." You don't really. It's not really intuition

But they have soaked up these lessons of how to tell a great story

and when is the right moment of editing. And if they really thought about it and there's plenty of editors that can

actually explain the reason why they cut in an exact moment. Some people go: "Oh, well, you're so analytical."

No, I think those people made those choices intuitively, but they can explain them analytically.

Sven: You gotta take action. You gotta find that balance of just...

accumulating information that is making you think. But then also use it in a way.

Steve: Yeah, when I'm doing real nuts and bolts training sessions, which I do for various companies, they need to put it into action immediately.

Sven: Well, Steve, thank you so much. I got a real kick out of this one,

I really enjoyed the way that you structured these conversations that you had with them.

I can tell you an editor. In those great conversations and those insights, they are

divided up into - sort of - the process of editing. How do you get organized? How do you watch dailies?

How do you attack a scene? On top of that, you really have the takeaway highlighted in the book?

So if you are facing a specific problem or a certain situation where you just want to know

"How do other people deal with it?" That book is a great reference. Steve: Thank you. Editing

that book was what made it good, in my opinion. Sven: Did you cut it in avid. Steve (laughs): I did not cut it in avid. No, I did not.

Sven: There you have it. So how do you feel about watching YouTube videos on filmmaking and are you putting it into action?

Let me know in the comments. I want to thank Steve for giving me so much time. There were many more tips

he shared and I'll have a worksheet by Steve plus a bonus video available to patreon members.

Steven: "There's also a whole section on the sizes of shots. And the reason specific sizes were chosen."

Sven: "Do you think that's a trade of being a successful filmmaker?"

Steve: "it's something that I definitely have picked up on on numerous interviews..." If you like this type of

content and want to take your editing to the next level consider joining me on patreon.

Thank you for watching