Catholic Church sex abuse scandal | Robert Barron and Lex Fridman
Summary
TLDRIn this challenging discussion, a priest addresses the dark history of child sexual abuse within the Catholic Church, acknowledging its longstanding presence and recent exposure. He highlights the Church's efforts to combat the issue, such as the Dallas Accords of 2002, which implemented protocols to reduce abuse. The conversation delves into the concept of celibacy within Catholicism, viewing it as a path of love and service, not directly linked to the abuse scandal. The priest emphasizes the importance of transparency and honesty in addressing the Church's past and present issues.
Takeaways
- π The discussion addresses the serious issue of sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests, acknowledging its historical and ongoing nature.
- π―οΈ The problem has been recognized by the Church for centuries, with Peter Damien speaking out against it in the 11th century.
- π There has been a significant effort by the Church to address the issue, particularly after the 2002 Dallas Accords, which implemented protocols to reduce abuse.
- π The speaker emphasizes the importance of transparency and honesty from institutions in dealing with such issues, rather than secrecy to protect the institution's image.
- π Celibacy within the Catholic Church is presented as a path of love and service, allowing priests to dedicate themselves fully to their religious duties.
- π‘ The concept of celibacy is compared to fasting, suggesting that it can lead to a deeper spiritual connection and a more intense love for all of creation.
- π Celibacy is seen as a choice that allows for a different kind of love, one that is not tied to a specific individual but is directed towards everyone.
- π€ The speaker distinguishes between celibacy and the sexual abuse scandal, arguing that there is no direct correlation between the two.
- π The discussion highlights the role of societal institutions in providing opportunities and cover for individuals with tendencies towards abuse.
- π The speaker appreciates the diversity within the Church, recognizing the value of both celibate and married lives as expressions of divine love.
Q & A
What is the historical context of sexual abuse within the Catholic Church?
-The issue of sexual abuse by Catholic priests has a long history, with discussions dating back to the 11th century when Peter Damien spoke about it. It has been a recurring problem within the Church.
How did the Catholic Church respond to the sexual abuse crisis in recent times?
-In response to the crisis, the Catholic Church, particularly in America, implemented the Dallas Accords in 2002. These protocols have been effective in reducing the instances of abuse, as numbers spiked in the 1970s and 1980s but fell dramatically afterward.
What is the role of institutions in the secrecy around abuse cases?
-Institutions, including the Church, have sometimes been driven by a sinful instinct to protect themselves, leading to secrecy around abuse cases. However, the role of institutions should be to be transparent and honest about the sins of its members.
What is the rationale behind the practice of celibacy in Catholicism?
-Celibacy in Catholicism is seen as a path of love, allowing individuals to be freer for the work of God. It is not a law but a choice that some make, similar to how Jesus and Paul chose celibacy, anticipating a higher form of love that is not tied to a particular individual but to everyone.
How does celibacy relate to the concept of love within the Church?
-Celibacy is viewed as a form of love that is more radical and not tied to a specific individual. It is a way of living that mystically anticipates the love in heaven, where there is a higher way of loving that is not bound by earthly relationships.
What is the comparison made between celibacy and fasting in the script?
-Celibacy is compared to fasting in that both practices involve a redirection of energies. Fasting can bring a greater intensity of love for everything, and celibacy is seen as a similar path that can enhance life and make one healthier and happier.
Is there a correlation between celibacy and sexual abuse as suggested by some?
-Research, including that by priest and sociologist Andrew Greeley, has shown that there is no correlation between celibacy and the sexual abuse of children. Abusers are more likely drawn to situations where they have access to children and institutional cover, regardless of celibacy.
How does the Church view the balance between celibacy and married life?
-The Church appreciates both celibacy and married life as valid paths. Celibacy is not seen as a burden but as a choice that allows for a different kind of service and ministry. At the same time, married love is recognized as a wonderful expression of divine love.
What is the significance of celibacy in the context of the Church's teachings on love and relationships?
-Celibacy is significant as it represents a higher form of love that is not limited to one person but is directed towards everyone. It is a way of living that is seen as a sign of how love will exist in heaven, where all are bound by a universal love.
How does the Church address the issue of transparency in dealing with abuse within its institutions?
-The Church has made strides towards transparency by implementing protocols like the Dallas Accords. The aim is to be more open and honest about the issues, ensuring that the well-being of individuals is not compromised by the desire to protect the institution.
Outlines
π Addressing the Dark Side of the Church's History
The speaker begins by addressing the difficult issue of sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests, acknowledging its historical roots and the recent surge in reports. They note the importance of discussing this dark aspect of human nature and the church's response. The conversation touches on the efforts made by the church, such as the Dallas Accords in 2002, to implement protocols that have effectively reduced such incidents. The speaker also discusses the broader context of human sinfulness and the need for institutions to be transparent and honest about their failings.
π The Significance of Celibacy in the Catholic Church
The discussion shifts to the concept of celibacy within the Catholic Church, explaining it as a path of love that allows priests to dedicate themselves more fully to their spiritual duties. The speaker draws parallels between celibacy and fasting, suggesting that both practices involve a redirection of energy towards prayer, mysticism, and ministry. They also address the misconception that celibacy is directly linked to sexual abuse, citing research that shows no correlation. The speaker emphasizes that celibacy is a personal choice that, like pacifism, serves as a witness to a higher form of love and commitment within the church.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘Sexual Abuse
π‘Catholic Church
π‘Dallas Accords
π‘Celibacy
π‘Sin
π‘Institution
π‘Secrecy
π‘Saint Paul
π‘Mysticism
π‘Fasting
π‘Just War Theory
Highlights
The issue of sexual abuse by Catholic priests has a long history, dating back to the 11th century.
The problem of sexual abuse by priests has been particularly acute in the last 30 years.
The Catholic Church has made strides in addressing the issue, with the implementation of the Dallas Accords in 2002.
The Dallas Accords introduced protocols that have been effective in reducing instances of abuse.
The number of abuse cases spiked in the 1970s and 1980s but fell dramatically after the implementation of new protocols.
The impulse to secrecy in the Church was often to protect the institution, even at the cost of people's well-being.
Celibacy in the Catholic Church is viewed as a path of love, similar to marriage.
Saint Paul's pragmatic justification for celibacy is that it frees individuals to focus on the work of God.
Celibacy allows some priests to minister in ways that would not be possible if they were married.
The mystical side of celibacy is rooted in the idea of a higher, more radical form of love.
Jesus's teachings suggest a form of love in heaven that is not tied to marriage.
Celibacy is seen as a sign of how love will be expressed in heaven, where all are connected through God.
The celibate lifestyle is compared to pacifism, as a way of living that anticipates a future state of peace.
Celibacy is not seen as a burden but rather a path that enhances life, similar to fasting.
Celibacy involves a redirection of energies into prayer, mysticism, and ministry.
The sexual abuse scandal is not directly linked to celibacy, as research has shown no correlation between the two.
Abusers are drawn to situations where they have access to children and institutional cover, regardless of celibacy.
Transcripts
let me ask you a difficult question
about the darker side of human nature of
human power
of institutions
what's your view on the long history and
widespread reports of sexual abuse of
children
by a catholic priest so this is a a
difficult topic but maybe an important
one to shine a light on yeah it's awful
you know and it's it's been a problem go
back to peter damien back in the 11th
century was talking about it so it's
been a problem and whenever really
sinful human beings have been in close
proximity to children we've we find this
issue has it been around the church yes
um
has it surfaced in a kind of sickening
way in the last 30 years absolutely
um
i'm glad the church has made important
strides and it has
back in 2002 there was a thing called
the dallas accords where the bishops of
america put a lot of these protocols in
place that really have been effective
at ameliorating this problem
the numbers spiked in the 70s and 80s
and that's been demonstrated over and
over again and then they fell
dramatically after that so
that's not to excuse anything but to say
i think progress has been made with it
what's the impulse to secrecy
yeah well to protect institutions you
know that's always that's a sinful uh
instinct uh i'm not all together i mean
sure an institution is worth protecting
but if it reaches the point where you're
indifferent to people's uh
well-being then you're in trouble
so institutions role
should be transparent and honest with
the sins of its members and itself
sure yeah
so maybe you can speak to the fact
uh as a priest the bishop
as part of catholicism
you're not allowed to marry
you're not allowed to have sex
uh you're you're sworn to celibacy
what is what is behind that idea
what is the sort of we talked about some
broad stroke yeah
ideas of love you know what's behind the
idea of celibacy and that's a good way
to get at it it's a path of love so it
the church is always in favor of
inculcating love marriage is a path of
love but so is celibacy
um saint paul talks about someone who is
preoccupied with the things of of this
world and family and those who are free
from that are freer for doing the the
work of god so that's kind of a
pragmatic justification for celibacy and
we still i think take that seriously
look at my own life i mean celibacy has
enabled me to do all kinds of things and
go places and and
and
minister in a way that i could not if i
had been married so i get it i get the
pragmatic side but i i'm more interested
in the sort of mystical side of it um
remember jesus was challenged about the
person who had a whole series of of uh
husbands and and then they all died and
so in heaven which one will uh you know
which which husband will the wife have
and his answer is in heaven people don't
marry and they're not given in marriage
there's a there's a higher way of love
it's a more radical way of love it's not
tied to a particular but i think through
god is tied to everybody
the celibate and this has been to the
beginning of the church
not as a law but there were there were
celibates from the very beginning of the
church including jesus of course and
paul
um
they sensed something that that way of
living
mystically anticipates the way we'll
love in heaven
it's a sign even now
within this world of how we will all
love in heaven
so
in that way it's a bit like pacifists um
i'm glad there are pacifists in the
church and i i've known some you know
some very powerful witnesses to pacifism
i'm glad they're pacifists because they
witness even now to how we will be in
heaven when every tear is wiped away and
we beat our swords into plowshares and
you know
heaven's a place of radical peace
that some people even now live it
at the same time i'm glad not everyone's
a pacifist because i i would hold with
the church to just war theory that
there's sometimes all we can do in this
finite world is to is to fight you know
uh manifest wickedness
so and just in the same way there's just
sex
well no right i'm glad there are
celibates but i'm glad not everyone's a
celebrity i wouldn't want that i mean
because because uh married love is a
marvelous expression of the divine love
so that's why it's good there are some
and it's always been a small number the
actual experience of it would you
uh the spiritual nature of it is it
similar to fasting so i've been enjoying
fasting uh recently so not eating yeah
uh for several days that kind of stuff
and that somehow brings you
even deeper i'm in general in love with
everything in nate with nature and
everything i see the beauty in the world
but there's a greater intensity to that
when you're fasting for example
yeah i i might use the language of you
know sublimation or redirection of
energy and all that um
i i think that's true there's a certain
sublimation of energies into
um
prayer into
mysticism into ministry
um a redirection of energies
so it's meant to be life enhancing the
same way fasting is is meant ultimately
to be life enhancing and make you
healthier and happier
so celibacy is a is a path of love and i
think it does involve you a certain
redirection of energies i'd say that
don't you think
do you think
it's a heavy burden
for some humans to bear
some priest to bear is that sure is that
the thing given this the
the the sexual abuse scandal
um
is that the thing that breaks
no i i wouldn't tie that to celibacy and
that's been uh demonstrated over and
over again there's a priest named andrew
greeley who was a priest from my home
diocese of chicago and
andy did a lot of research he was
sociologist of religion did a lot of
research into that very question and
there really is not a correlation
between celibacy per se
and the sexual abuse of children or
anybody so i wouldn't make that
correlation so bad people sinful people
are going to do what they're going to do
i think people
who have a tendency toward
abusing children sexually are drawn to
situations where they get ready access
to kids and they get institutional cover
so that's something that you go through
the list of you know from sports and and
boy scouts etc um and that's been proven
again and again so i would tie it more
to that i wouldn't tie it to celibacy
you
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