How Luxury Beliefs are Ruining Society, with Rob Henderson

Summary

在这段对话中，Rob Henderson分享了他的新书《Troubled》的核心观点，探讨了精英阶层与社会大众之间的脱节，以及这种脱节如何影响社会政策和教育制度。他通过个人经历，包括在洛杉矶的贫困生活、寄养系统的经历，以及在耶鲁大学的学习，揭示了社会不平等和精英统治的问题。Henderson强调了社会对所有人的责任，以及为了实现更好的社会结果，需要对抗错误决策和意识形态的挑战。

Takeaways

• 📚 罗布·亨德森的书《麻煩》探讨了精英阶层与社会其他阶层之间的脱节，以及这种脱节如何影响社会政策和普通人的生活。
• 🧐 亨德森通过自己的经历，包括在洛杉矶的贫困生活、寄养系统的经历，以及在耶鲁大学的学习，揭示了社会不平等的不同面貌。
• 🏆 尽管《麻煩》一书符合《纽约时报》畅销书榜的标准，但并未上榜，作者和出版社正在调查原因，这可能与书中挑战主流观点有关。
• 🤔 亨德森讨论了奢侈品信仰的概念，即精英阶层持有与现实脱节的信念，这些信念可能导致对边缘化和弱势群体不利的政策。
• 👨‍👩‍👧 家庭背景和成长经历对个人价值观和信仰的形成有重大影响，亨德森的亚洲母亲和墨西哥父亲的混合血统背景为他提供了独特的视角。
• 🎓 教育系统的变化，如在旧金山公立学校推迟教授代数，可能会对低收入学生产生不利影响，限制了他们未来的学术和职业发展。
• 🚔 警察资金削减运动和对执法态度的变化导致了犯罪率的上升，亨德森通过数据和个人观察强调了这一点。
• 🏫 标准化考试和择优录取对于低收入和少数族裔学生来说是重要的社会流动工具，但这些概念近年来受到了质疑和攻击。
• 🤝 社会对每个人都有责任，亨德森认为政府应该为所有公民服务，提供有效的政府、学校和其他机构。
• 💡 亨德森强调了言论自由和学术自由的重要性，并认为这些自由不是自然而然就会存在的，需要社会成员不断地维护和争取。
• 🌐 社会需要更多有影响力的人勇敢地发表意见，诚实地讨论问题，而不是屈服于当前的政治正确或舆论压力。

Q & A

Rob Henderson的书《Troubled》主要探讨了哪些问题？

Rob Henderson的书《Troubled》主要探讨了精英阶层与社会其他阶层之间的鸿沟，以及这种鸿沟如何影响社会政策和普通人的生活。书中还讨论了奢侈品信仰的概念，以及这些信仰如何导致社会基本层面的破裂，比如公共安全和刑事司法改革。

Rob Henderson的个人背景对他的观点有何影响？

Rob Henderson的个人背景对他的世界观和观点有着深远的影响。他的成长经历，包括在洛杉矶的贫民窟生活、在寄养系统中的经历、以及后来被一个工薪家庭收养，都让他对社会的不平等和结构性问题有了深刻的理解和同情。这些经历使他对精英阶层的观点和决策持有批判态度，并在书中进行了深入探讨。

Rob Henderson如何看待标准化测试和择优录取？

Rob Henderson支持标准化测试和择优录取。他认为这些制度能够帮助来自非传统背景的人获得提升的机会。他通过个人经历和研究数据来支持他的观点，认为标准化测试特别是对低收入和代表性不足的群体有利。他还批评了当前教育系统中取消这些制度的趋势，认为这会加剧社会的不平等。

Rob Henderson在书中提到了哪些社会问题？

Rob Henderson在书中提到了多种社会问题，包括精英阶层的奢侈品信仰、社会基本层面的破裂、公共安全和刑事司法改革、教育系统中的不平等、以及社会对贫困和犯罪的态度等。他批评了精英阶层制定的政策往往与普通民众的需求和经验脱节，导致了社会的混乱和不公。

Rob Henderson对于精英阶层的看法是什么？

Rob Henderson认为精英阶层在塑造社会话语和决策方面拥有巨大的影响力，但他们的观点和决策往往与社会的大多数人脱节。他指出精英阶层倾向于制定出一些听起来很好，但实际上对弱势群体有害的政策。他还提到精英阶层对于自己的地位和孩子的未来感到焦虑，这种焦虑可能导致他们在教育和职业机会上采取有利于自己孩子的措施。

Rob Henderson的书《Troubled》为何没有出现在《纽约时报》畅销书榜上？

尽管Rob Henderson的书《Troubled》销售情况良好，达到了《纽约时报》畅销书榜的标准，但它并未出现在榜单上。Rob和他的出版商正在调查这一情况，这可能与书中挑战精英阶层观点的内容有关，这些观点可能不受某些有影响力的人群欢迎。

Rob Henderson如何看待警察和刑事司法改革？

Rob Henderson认为警察和刑事司法改革是必要的，但他反对完全废除警察和刑事司法系统。他指出，暴力犯罪的增加与警察资金的削减有关，而且这种增加的犯罪对贫困社区的影响尤其严重。他主张应该有更多的对话和辩论，以找到既能保护人民安全，又能纠正行为的平衡点。

Rob Henderson对于教育系统的看法是什么？

Rob Henderson对教育系统持有批判态度，特别是对于公立学校系统。他认为，教育系统未能为所有学生提供平等的机会，特别是在旧金山这样的城市，精英阶层更倾向于将孩子送入私立学校。他还批评了教育系统中取消标准化测试和择优录取的趋势，认为这些措施对低收入和代表性不足的学生不利。

Rob Henderson在书中提到的“奢侈品信仰”是什么？

Rob Henderson在书中提到的“奢侈品信仰”是指那些听起来很高尚但实际上对普通人有害的信念。这些信仰往往由精英阶层提出，并在社会上广泛传播，但它们往往与普通人的实际经验脱节，导致了社会政策的失误和不公。

Rob Henderson对于社会不平等的看法是什么？

Rob Henderson认为社会不平等是一个严重的问题，它不仅体现在经济上，还体现在教育、司法和安全等多个方面。他指出，精英阶层的政策往往加剧了这种不平等，而不是缓解它。他主张社会应该提供更多的机会和资源，以帮助弱势群体提升自己的地位。

Rob Henderson对于精英大学的看法是什么？

Rob Henderson认为精英大学在提供教育和社会流动性方面发挥了重要作用，但他也指出了这些大学存在的问题，包括对精英阶层的子女过度倾斜的招生政策，以及学生和教职工中普遍存在的地位焦虑。他提倡应该有更多的对话和辩论，以确保这些机构能够更好地服务于社会的所有成员。

Outlines

00:00

🌟 与作家Rob Henderson的对话

主持人与作家Rob Henderson就其著作《Troubled》进行深入对话。Rob讨论了政治、社会问题，特别是加州和旧金山的政治现象，以及精英阶层如何因日常经验与普罗大众脱节而做出看似有道德信号却可能适得其反的决策。Rob的成长背景和经历也在对话中被提及，他的书籍因为挑战了精英阶层的观点而可能未被列入《纽约时报》畅销书榜，尽管销量极佳。

05:04

📚 Rob Henderson的个人历程

Rob Henderson分享了他的个人成长经历，包括他的韩裔母亲和墨西哥裔父亲的背景，以及他在洛杉矶的贫困和无家可归的生活。他提到了自己在寄养系统中的经历，以及后来被一个工人阶级家庭收养，并在加州北部的Red Bluff长大。Rob讨论了他与父母的关系，以及他如何在学术和个人生活中克服困难。

10:06

🛫 从贫困到精英教育的跨越

Rob讲述了他如何从贫困和不稳定的家庭环境进入Yale大学，并在空军服役期间的经历。他讨论了结构和权威对他个人成长的影响，以及如何在权威和自我放逐之间找到平衡。Rob还分享了他对于教育的看法，包括他对标准化测试的支持，以及他认为这些测试对于低收入和少数族裔学生的重要性。

15:07

🚨 社会问题与精英阶层的脱节

对话中，Rob和主持人探讨了社会问题，特别是犯罪、警察资金削减和教育改革等议题。他们讨论了精英阶层如何与普通民众的生活经验脱节，以及这种脱节如何导致政策制定的失误和社会问题的加剧。Rob强调了对于犯罪受害者的关注，以及社会对于不同社会阶层犯罪行为的不同反应。

20:09

📈 书籍成功与媒体的关注

Rob讨论了他的书籍《Troubled》的成功，尽管销量表明应该进入《纽约时报》畅销书榜，但却未被列入。他和出版商正在调查原因，怀疑可能与书中挑战精英阶层观点有关。Rob还讨论了公立学校教育的重要性，以及他对当前教育改革的一些看法，特别是关于标准化测试和择优录取的观点。

25:09

🎓 教育与社会流动性

Rob分享了他个人的教育经历，包括他在高中的表现和后来如何通过SAT考试和社区学院的课程提高自己的大学申请资料。他强调了标准化测试对于低收入和少数族裔学生的重要性，并举例说明了标准化测试如何帮助这些学生获得更好的教育机会。Rob批评了当前教育政策的一些趋势，如取消标准化测试和择优录取，他认为这些政策忽视了帮助弱势群体提升社会地位的重要性。

30:11

🌐 当前社会与意识形态的挑战

Rob和主持人讨论了当前社会中意识形态如何影响政策和决策，特别是关于种族和经济不平等的讨论。Rob提出了对于当前教育和社会政策的批评，认为这些政策往往忽视了实际效果，而更多地受到意识形态的驱动。他还讨论了精英阶层的地位焦虑，以及这种焦虑如何影响他们对子女教育的态度和对社会政策的看法。

35:12

🗣️ 知识分子的责任与挑战

在对话的最后，Rob强调了知识分子和有影响力的人应该承担起社会责任，勇于发表自己的观点，即使这些观点可能与主流意识形态相悖。他讨论了言论自由和学术自由的重要性，以及这些自由在历史上的罕见性和脆弱性。Rob呼吁人们珍惜并捍卫这些自由，对抗任何可能限制言论和思想的势力。

Keywords

💡精英阶层

精英阶层指的是社会中处于顶端的一小部分人，他们通常拥有较高的社会地位、教育水平和财富。在视频中，提到精英阶层有时会因为与大众脱节而做出一些看似有益实则有害社会的决策。例如，他们可能支持减少警察资金，但这样的政策实际上可能会导致犯罪率上升，影响社会秩序。

💡奢侈品信念

奢侈品信念是指那些被社会精英阶层所持有，但与普通人生活实际脱节的信念或价值观。这些信念往往在社会上被广泛传播，但可能并不符合大多数人的实际利益。在视频中，作者通过自己的书籍《Troubled》探讨了这种现象，并指出这种信念可能导致社会问题。

💡社会断裂

社会断裂指的是社会中不同群体之间出现的隔阂和分裂，这通常是由于经济、教育、文化等方面的不平等造成的。在视频中，作者通过自己的经历和观察，指出社会断裂的存在，并认为这是当前社会面临的一个重要问题。

💡教育公平

教育公平是指在教育机会和教育资源分配上，所有人都能够获得平等的待遇，不受社会经济地位、种族、性别等因素的影响。视频中讨论了教育公平的问题，特别是在精英阶层如何影响教育政策，以及这些政策对不同社会群体的实际影响。

💡标准化测试

标准化测试是一种统一的考试方式，用于评估学生在特定学科或能力上的水平。这种测试通常具有固定的形式和评分标准，旨在提供一个公平的评估平台。视频中讨论了标准化测试的重要性，尤其是在为低收入和少数族裔学生提供教育机会方面。

💡意识形态

意识形态是指一系列关于政治、社会、经济等方面的观念和信仰，它影响着个人或群体的价值观和行为。在视频中，提到了精英阶层可能利用意识形态来推动符合自己利益的政策，而忽视了这些政策对大多数人的实际影响。

💡社会正义

社会正义是指在社会中追求公平、平等和人权的理念，旨在消除不公正现象，如歧视、贫困和不平等现象。视频中讨论了社会正义的概念，以及它如何被一些精英阶层用来推动特定的政策或议程，有时这可能导致与实际社会需求脱节。

💡个人奋斗

个人奋斗指的是个人通过自己的努力和坚持，克服困难和挑战，以实现个人目标和梦想的过程。在视频中，作者分享了自己的个人奋斗故事，从一个贫困和不稳定的家庭背景中奋斗出来，最终获得了教育和成功。

💡社会责任感

社会责任感是指个人或集体对社会福祉的关注和承担的义务感。在视频中，作者强调了精英阶层应该具有的社会责任感，即不仅要关注自己的利益，还要考虑他们的决策如何影响整个社会，特别是那些处于不利地位的群体。

💡意识形态偏差

意识形态偏差是指个人或集体在处理信息和做决策时，受到其信仰和价值观的影响，从而偏离客观事实和理性判断的现象。在视频中，作者讨论了意识形态偏差如何导致精英阶层在政策制定和社会问题上做出与大众利益不符的决策。

Highlights

Rob Henderson讨论了他的新书《Troubled》以及书中探讨的精英阶层的虚伪和双重标准。

讨论了加州和旧金山政治中的问题，特别是精英们做出的脱离民众的决策。

Rob的个人背景，包括他的亚洲裔美国人身份和成长过程中的挑战。

Rob的三重名字背后的故事，以及它们如何反映了他复杂的家庭历史。

讨论了美国社会对于童年创伤的处理不足，以及这种创伤如何在成年后表现出来。

Rob在洛杉矶和红崖（Red Bluff）的不同生活经历，以及这些经历如何塑造了他对美国社会不同阶层的理解。

Rob在空军的经历，以及这种结构化环境如何对他产生了积极影响。

讨论了权威与权威主义在教育和育儿中的区别，以及找到平衡的重要性。

探讨了精英阶层如何通过媒体和政策制定影响社会叙事，但往往与普通民众的现实脱节。

讨论了精英阶层对警察改革和公共安全的态度，以及这些态度如何与他们自身的经验不符。

Transcripts

hey everyone today I'm sitting down with

the author Rob Henderson I got to know

him on X because he started writing

about a lot of the things that I was

seeing and worried about in politics in

California and San Francisco ultimately

you have a group of people who are

making virtue signaling decisions about

the most important things in our society

and they're operating off of a

day-to-day lived experience that is

basically disconnected from the people

that they aim to try to help they say

they're helping but the outcomes seem

like they're the opposite Rob

Henderson's book troubled is a really

important one because it talks exactly

about why that happens and how that

happens how do people acquire luxury

beliefs I had a great conversation with

him and he's got a book that is selling

so well well it should be on the New

York Times bestseller list but someone

is holding the finger down on the scale

why because this idea of luxury beliefs

is so important it endangers the very

being of a lot of people who are the

Elite who actually decide who goes on

that list who gets that headline and

sometimes who gets that funding from the

government so let's get

started

[Applause]

[Music]

Rob thanks a lot for coming on the

channel uh really big fan of you from

the internet and then it's always uh a

treat to be able to spend time with you

know a kindred spirit your book really

really spoke to me and thanks for being

here yeah thanks Gary yeah it's it's

great to be here yeah I'm honored uh

that you're taking the time to to speak

with me today I guess there's a lot in

your story that really resonates for me

I remember you know it's a little

different in that I did have both my

parents on the other hand you know my

father struggled with alcoholism and you

know it really subjected me and my

brother to a lot and frankly my mom to a

ton of trauma that as asian-americans

often we just sort of go into American

society assuming you know what like I'm

normal I'm fine and then it came out in

lots of really strange ways your book

sort of talks about that at length I

wonder where to start you sort of even

start the preface right off the bat with

you know sort of your three names I

wonder if you could talk about that yeah

I opened the book this way just to give

the reader a sense of you know what the

story is and who the author of This Book

Is So my full name is Robert Kim

Henderson and each of my three names was

taken from a different adult my first

name Robert is the supposed name of my

biological father so I was born into

poverty my mother and I we were homeless

for a short while we lived in a car we

eventually settled in a slum apartment

in LA and you know later when I was put

in the foster care system some social

workers and forensic psychologists asked

my mom and where's this boy's father

because you're not in a position to care

for him and she said she really didn't

know she had some vague sense that his

name was Robert but she didn't have any

memory of him or where he was or what he

did my mother she came to the US from

Soul South Korea as a young woman to

study and then she started partying and

doing a lot of drugs and that's you know

kind of where her life went and why I

was put into care and my father I

actually had no information about him

other than his name supposedly but I

took a 23 in me test last year and

learned that I'm half Hispanic on my

father's side so I'm half Mexican half

Korean and my middle name Kim that's my

birth mother's name you know Common

Korean surname and my last name

Henderson comes from My adoptive father

so when I was taken from my birth mother

I was placed into the Los Angeles County

foster care system spent the next just

shy of five years in seven different

homes around

La then I was adopted by this

workingclass family and we settled in

this kind of Dusty bluecollar town in

northern California called called Red

Bluff way up North about 2 hours north

of Sacramento it's a part of California

most people aren't familiar with but

it's a very kind of rundown poor kind of

kind of rural area and My adoptive

parents you know they experienced kind

of what a lot of families are

experiencing across the country sort of

working class and lower middle class

families the

deterioration and the instability and

the separation I mean they so they

divorced about 18 months after adopting

me My adoptive father was upset with My

adoptive mother for leaving him and he

retaliated by cutting off contact with

me because he figured this

would you know this would inflict some

pain on my mother which it did and so

from there I was raised by a single mom

for a time and and there were other sort

of family transitions after the fact

there but those were the names that were

given to me and each of those three

names were taken from adults that

I no longer speak with and have you know

essentially either neglected or

abandoned me during my

childhood one of the crazy things about

American society is I think really

doesn't give people who experience

things like that Trauma from childhood

like we just they just it doesn't get

very much space it's like not something

that people talk about if anything when

we go off into polite Society we spend a

lot of time pretending we you know fit

in and none of that stuff happened my

freshman year at Stanford I had a uh

academic residential adviser who you

know explicitly the the goal of that

person is to be a resource or someone to

like help you get used to you know

University life and then I remember

sending them emails about you know sort

of the stuff I was dealing with around

like verbal abuse from my parents and

like sort of really really intense

familial obligations and there's just no

engagement there's like a long stretch

of the book where you sort of talk about

like your high school years but you did

end up also at Yale so you know that's

sort of like the two ends of the

spectrum right both of us experiencing

quite a bit of trauma early and then you

know joining polite Society in some way

and like realizing oh you know we really

don't quite fit in there is actually a

lot of difference between our experience

and like the normal Elite experience at

top schools yeah it's uh it's

interesting right like I when I started

writing this book this lingering concern

I had was like would anyone relate any

of this because I had such an unusual

upbringing at one point I took this uh

this childhood instability scale that I

came across in a developmental

psychology paper and AC score then right

it's it's so this is separate from the

AC it's very similar it's very similar

to the ace scores the adverse childhood

experiences score and you know I did the

you know the basic statistics and found

that I scored in the top 1% of most

unstable childhoods in the US and I'm

like man this is like you know people

are going to read this and be like this

is such an alien experience to me but

what I've been surprised by is just how

many people have connected with this

story and not even people who grew up

you know working class are poor the way

that I did for long stretches of my

upbringing but even people who had kind

of more middle class upbringings but you

know they had they experienced family

instability or someone in their family

suffered from addiction or a lot of

people's parents have had their own

issues that they were dealing with and

took it out on their kids or their

spouse and you're right it's it's

something that's that's under discussed

and people either don't speak about it

at all or if they do they use they speak

about it indirectly in the language of

like poverty or

inequality but you know there are people

who don't necessarily lack in terms of

material resources but they're acting

out the

emotional difficulties and experiences

they had early in their lives the

instability and the self-defeating

choices and all those things and then

when they have fam as you see they take

it out on their kids and or they don't

they just uh you know take it out of

their kids by not speaking to the kids

right that by abandoning them or

neglecting them and that's sort of how

they're acting out I saw kind of every

angle of that not just from my own

experience growing up in LA and then in

Red Bluff but also my my friends you

know I talk about my experiences in the

foster homes and divorces and

separations and being raised by a single

mom and all that stuff but I had five

close friends growing up in Red Bluff

and they also had very difficult

experiences you know raised by single

moms or abusive stepparents or or I had

one friend who was raised by his

grandmother because his mom was on drugs

his dad was in prison actually I had two

friends whose dads were kind of in and

out of prison all throughout our

childhood so I write about those

experiences too about how this is

actually more common than a lot of

people think especially people in that

sort of tippy top you know at or near

the elite segments of society and I kind

of came to realize this vast sort of

Chasm between Elites and everyone else

when I got to Yale and to came too to

sort of see I sort of Step by Step the

foster homes this workingclass community

then I was in the Air Force then I went

off to Yale and I kind of saw like

different strata of American society all

along the way and so yeah the book

covers a lot of a lot of what I saw and

what I learned yeah your time in the Air

Force sounds really interesting in that

it's structure and then I guess in my

own experience I found that I really

like situations that are sort of like

high Love Low structure that that was

sort of what I craved but it was a

surprise to me uh entering into like the

workforce and becoming a manager and

trying to run companies and realizing

that actually that's not normal like

basically what people seem to love is

high love High structure people actually

really want structure whereas a deep

part of me is like sort of angst against

uh Authority because of my own

upbringing so I just didn't want anyone

to tell me what to do or control me and

how much that made me who I am in a lot

of ways yeah I had this kind of LoveHate

relationship with authority I had this

kind of instinctive mistrust of adults

just from being in the system so long

from you know each time I moved to a

different foster home it did feel like

this sense of betrayal especially once I

grew old enough to understand what was

happening to me and just the sort of

fleeting connections that I had where

I'd go to one home one family then the

next family and then yeah later when I

was adopted was in contact with my

adopted father and so you know by the

time I you know was in Middle School or

high school and teachers would ask me to

do homework or do these things I was

just very skeptical of this whole

Enterprise anytime an adult said this

was important I would think I have this

line in the book about how for a lot of

kids if adults repeatedly let you down

you eventually learn to let yourself

down and that's what happened with me

it's what happened with a lot of my

friends that if you're a young child and

you know your parents are the adult

people in your life those they're your

whole world and they don't put your

priorities first then as you kind of

come online and enter the world you stop

really prioritizing your own needs um at

least long-term needs maybe short-term

hedonistic gratification just the

pursuit of short-term pleasure to forget

about your circumstances and to forget

about all the things going on around you

and so yeah this was uh yeah something

something that we we dealt with and you

know took took a while to to overcome

some of it I mean it was interesting

like the Air Force when I initially

joined I hated it actually um I wasn't

actually expecting it to be quite that

rigid and quite that intense I joined at

a unique time too I mean I left I was 17

years old uh when I enlisted I had to

have my adoptive mom sign a permission

slip because I was underage and this was

2007 so this was like the height of the

war on terror Iraq and Afghanistan and

so like the Air Force had revamped their

training regimen and it was like it was

more intense than I expected and I

didn't like it but I have this story the

book where I talked to my friend Tyler

who he served 12 months in San Quinton

state in prison in California and he he

had just got out of prison I'm telling

the story and I I you know I visit him I

was you know one or two years into my

enlistment and we both were describing

our respective experiences he was

talking about prison I was talking about

the military and we both kind of

realized like oh like we had very

similar experiences where like every

aspect of your life is tightly

controlled from what time the lights

come on to like you know like where

you're supposed to be and who you report

to and every every little thing and we

both came to this agreement that we both

really hated it at first but gradually

we came to actually appreciate the

structure and the stability that we had

lacked when we were growing up and he

liked it so much he actually went back

to

prison and I liked it so much I actually

reenlisted so I served eight years in

total I did four two four year

enlistments thanks for your service no

thank you yeah thanks man yeah and so it

it's like you know when you grow up in

like with a complete lack of norms like

no parents really I mean we had Parents

around but they were kind of halfway

checked out that on some level we were I

think craving that stability that

structure in our lives and even if we

kind of rebelled against it and pushed

against it at first we gradually grew to

appreciate that there was something

comforting about it too uh so yeah it's

it's h it's not straightforward right it

was like oh structure how how fun and

how great and everything it was more

like I really hate this but then as you

sort of live through it it's like oh has

actually been good for me on some level

at least in our experience you know not

it doesn't work for everyone I

definitely don't recommend like everyone

join the military or go to prison or

anything like that but for certain kinds

of people I think limits can be useful

yeah it's interesting I mean for folks

who have like sort of super stable

households Andor I mean being a parent

now I realize to what degree I actually

have to learn how to be a parent totally

from first principles in a lot of ways

and that's been really hard I think the

the thing I struggled the most with

now is sort is is sort of knowing how to

actually be authoritative instead of

authoritarian or self abandoning right

and then in parenting that's like one of

the primary issues some people have

parents who are way too permissive some

people or not present right or you have

parents who are way extremely

overbearing and have their own issues

and then really good parenting is sort

of someplace in the middle and then

being a really good manager is like

someplace in the the middle as well yeah

that's that's yeah I remember taking a

developmental psychology course and like

probably every parent knows this or

everyone who sort of flipped through a

parenting book they have that like the

three kind of basic categories of

parenting like there yeah there was the

authoritarian parenting which is just as

yeah very overbearing abusive or

borderline abusive and then yeah

authoritative which is you know having

boundaries and limits but not going

overboard and then yeah that sort of Laz

Fair complete hands-off style and I

think like when I when I speak to a lot

of especially kind of like more upper

upper middle class parents they are

concerned about that boundary between

authoritarian and authoritative where if

you behave in an authoritative way I

think a lot of parents worry that

they're being authoritarian when they're

not and so trying to find that that lie

I'm not a parent so I don't know but I I

I think I have like some understanding

just from speaking that that can be a

very kind of difficult tight rope what's

funny is it's fractal right we spent a

lot of time with AI and in artificial

intelligence you spend a lot of time

thinking about training and training run

like parenting is basically training a

human intelligence and it takes its own

like you know more than 20,000 hours of

really intense back-to-back attention

and you know of course the outcomes are

going to be radically different based on

what training you subject the human

intelligence to actually it's uh very

very strong non-stop reinforcement

learning you know and then it's fractal

because you know I I think one of the my

favorite things from your substack and

some of the ideas that you've been

putting out on the internet I that

really resonate with me are really about

this idea of luxury beliefs and there's

sort of this link between people's

attitudes towards parenting to actually

discipline of children to actually all

the way over to Public Safety and you

know Criminal Justice Reform what is the

role of the state in protecting people

or correcting Behavior or diverting them

from path a versus path B I think that

that debate actually really needs to

happen because right now they seem very

disconnected and I feel like that's

where the luxury beliefs sort of come

from if you have an elite that defines

the narrative that sets the rules sets

the boundaries for society and then has

no connection to your experience or my

experience or you know the experience of

actually a large percentage of the

population then the policies do not

serve the people and then people are

confused and surprised

Andor invoke a lot of the sort of

invective that they do around calling

someone carceral or and It's tricky

because obviously we want a police that

is you know they do their jobs right we

don't want an abusive police structure

but we also want one that like keeps

people safe and then you know even at

the level of school like in San

Francisco we have this crazy problem of

middle schools that are very violent

actually and then even if you wanted to

achieve in those environments the

environments are so disruptive and so

not conducive to learning that you know

guess what like the test scores are bad

and you know it's not possible and we

sort of allow it right and so there's a

deep connection between luxury beliefs

and like a breakdown in society at these

sort of fundamental levels for our

children and for our elders and for

ourselves in blue cities having some

limits some boundaries some consequences

for misbehavior I mean this is like sort

of basic Behavioral Science that people

respond to incentives and if you sort of

remove all penalties for every possible

form of misconduct like some small

percentage of the population will start

to essentially abuse or manipulate

people around them and you know we can I

think we can kind of see that yeah in in

the wake of the sort of defund the

police movement and I mean it's so funny

like I I talk about this in the book I I

report the statistics around defund the

police there was this really large scale

survey representative survey from yugov

in 2020 which found that and when they

broke down the responses by income

category the highest income Americans

were the most in support of defunding

the police there were kind of smaller

surveys done in specific cities during

that period uh New York City Detroit I

think Minneapolis too and they found

that the group that was the most in

support of defunding the police were

white Democrats and that Black and

Hispanic residents of these cities were

the least in favor of it and yet you

know the people the activists and you

know people who uh take on the manole of

being representatives for these

marginalized and disadvantaged groups

they hold the opposite view where

actually what's happening is you need to

reduce resources to the police and

cultivate an attitude toward suspicion

toward law enforcement and you know then

we saw what happened in the wake of that

that violent crime spiked homicides

rates increased between 2020 and 2022

and it was like you know I remember

reading like I'd open the pages of the

Wall Street Journal in like 2022 and it

would say you know year-over-year

homicides increased x% over the last two

years and you know these would be folded

into these aggregate snapshot statistics

but then over the last I don't know year

or so there were these high-profile

murders of like there was one I think

there was there was a tech executive in

San Francisco I don't recall the

specifics of that case but he got

stabbed in in San Francisco that one

turned out to be a uh Crime of Passion

apparently oh interesting okay and um

but there are very horrible examples of

actually totally random violence Sheria

mcoa was a upen grad moved to San

Francisco to follow his dreams had a new

newborn uh and he got run over and

killed on the west side of the city by a

repeat offender who was just totally out

of his mind on drugs and if you don't

have yeah if you literally just don't

have consequences for people who have a

wrap sheet that is a mile long then in

exchange for The Virtue signal of

politicians you have random deaths

dozens to hundreds of random deaths and

Mings and you know these are sort of

things that actually break down Society

in that way because a child being raised

by a single father or mother who gets

killed well that's an orphan right

that's another person who enters the

Foster system like there's you know a

real breakdown here that you know

Society needs to look out for each other

and it's not happening and it's you know

not happening largely because the elites

who sort of set the narrative and write

the headlines you know all of the things

that you're talking about are more or

less foreign to them yeah and they don't

seem to recognize sort of their own

class biases you know so so you

mentioned this person this upen graduate

there were those two high-profile cases

of journalists being killed in the last

few months and those people get

identified by name in the media you know

they have articles WR about them we

learned their names and you know I was

reading these reports and I'm thinking

okay if you're you know if you're just a

poor person in a low-income neighborhood

and you get shot or stabbed or attacked

you know you just get folded into this

the statistics but if you're a member of

the modern aristocracy and you're a

college graduate and you're a journalist

or you graduate from an elite school

even if you know even if and when these

policies do catch up and occasionally

involve or you know victimize one of

these people you know they get Tre

treated very differently they get these

you know entire articles written about

them and it's like they get honored as

like you know what a member of the

nobility was killed and they get like an

entire piece written about them and

meanwhile like dozens of ordinary people

are being victimized too and they're not

sort of described in the same way or or

sort of venerated in the media in the

same terms and you know it's funny like

that I'm curious about like just you

know because I study psychology and I'm

interested in how these things work from

a sort of psychological perspective of

my impression is that at least for a

large segment of cultural Elites that

when a police officer kills someone like

that's seen as somehow more egregious

than if sort of one low-income person

with like a rap sheet a mile long kills

some other poor person in both cases a

life is still lost but if an officer

does it in the line of duty this is seen

as extremely egregious but if one poor

person kills another it's just kind of

like oh you know like that's you know

that's just a consequence of freedom I

guess or I'm not sure like what the

mindset is there but it's just like in

the aggregate if there's 1% of the

population that is disproportionately

unlawful and a disproportionate

percentage of that 1% happens to be

people from marginalized or dispossessed

groups the thinking seems to be well we

just won't enforce laws anymore but

they're victimizing people around them

and the people they're victimizing also

tend to be disproportionately poor from

marginalized backgrounds as well you

know other I cite these stats in the

book too about how compared to Americans

who earn more than $75,000 a year the

lowest income Americans are seven times

more likely to be victims of aggravated

assault seven times more likely to be

victims of robbery 20 times more likely

to be victims of sexual assault and

homicide and essentially like every

crime you can think of the poor are the

most likely to be victimized by it and

people are much more likely to be

victimized by crime than perpetrators

but we focus so much on the perpetrators

of crime and how they come from is you

know marginalized and deprived

backgrounds but we don't think that much

about their victims and what happens

with them they don't get the same amount

of attention I think which is a shame I

mean if there's a criminal who commits

an act I think we should spend more time

on the victim and their circumstances

rather than the perpetrator yeah I agree

100% I mean a lot of this is ultimately

sort of a breakdown in both state

capacity and media capacity I think

there's sort of epistemic capture at the

med level where you know things that do

not match the dominant current thing

narrative are squelched and one of the

reasons why I'm excited to sort of

showcase you on my YouTube channel is

hearing recently that troubled actually

hit all of the metrics necessary to be

on the New York Times bestseller list

probably by a wide margin and and yet

you know what's going on

there yeah that's a good question we are

you know we're investigating that so

last year you know my agent and you know

the team from my my publisher we all sat

down and thought about doing a kind of a

mini book tour kind of go to some

bookstores do some signings maybe do uh

talks and none of the bookstores we

reached out to and reached out to a lot

uh were willing to host me and then um

more recently the book's been out now

for a little over a week and it sold

extremely well it hit the USA Today

bestseller list and it was number one on

a bunch of categories on Amazon it was

number one this week on Bookshop uh this

sort of aggregate sort of independent

book seller list so it's doing very well

you know my my publisher contacted me

saying yeah we should have hit the New

York Times bestseller list but somehow

we didn't and they're inquiring and

we're trying to get to the bottom of why

this oversight if it is an oversight

occurred but you know it's it's possible

just like with the bookstores being

unwilling to host me for my tour this

issue with the bestseller list may just

be another example I think of the m of

my book maybe unwelcome you know this

idea of luxury beliefs of you know I

describe kind of the hypocrisy and the

duplicity of people who are at or near

the top of society who wield the most

cultural and political influence who

kind of do the most in terms of shaping

the discourse and raising the issues

that we as a society should be caring

about and what goals we should be

aspiring to and I challenge some of

their perspectives like you and I have

been talking about defund the police but

I talk about other issues around family

and about other kinds of issues that are

plaguing marginalized and dispossessed

communities across the US and I think

they're just the people who get wind of

my book and the message and you know

they're not you know 100% supportive of

the things I'm I'm I'm communicating

which I think is you know it's a shame

it's a shame that this is the book I

think should be uncontroversial but

somehow it is uh seen by some as

provocative the people who need to hear

it the most are the ones who might be

most resistant to the message and then

one of the reasons why it really

resonated with me is that I've seen it

firsthand as a resident of San Francisco

you know one of the more shocking things

for me growing up in the Bay Area was

hearing that if you live in San

Francisco and you have children who are

in junior high school and you can't

afford very very expensive private

schools s you know San Francisco is has

some of the highest rates of the elites

sending their children to private school

basically like if you can you do in San

Francisco if that were expanded over all

of America like that wouldn't be a good

thing like I deeply believe that my

public school education helped me a lot

part of the reason why I was able to get

into Stanford and study computer science

was being able to take algebra in

seventh and eth grade and here in San

Francisco you cannot take it until n9th

grade and the argument was that it would

help black and brown kids with equity

and you know the result was exactly the

opposite of that that that it hurt

everyone at every level it watered down

the schools it reduced State capacity it

was an abdication of Duty to the people

which you could argue is the same thing

that we saw around a breakdown in the

criminal justice system one thing that

you talk a lot about is you know

standardized tests actually really help

testing and good education merit-based

schools these are things that clearly

allow people from non-traditional

backgrounds get a leg up and yet why are

these things being sort of torn down

it's yeah it's it's ridiculous I've

written multiple pieces in defense of

standardized testing most recently I

wrote an opit in the Boston Globe you

know both drawing on the data uh which

are crystal clear that standardized

testing is beneficial especially for

low-income kids and kids from

underrepresented groups you know and

then I also draw my own personal

experience with with testing I mean I

was kind of a my own academic record was

very kind of unstable I graduated high

school kind of barely crossed the Finish

Line with a 2.2 GPA and I never really

had this conception of myself as like a

good student or smart or anything like

that but I took the ASVAB the armed

services vocational aptitude battery

which is a military standardized test

and there there been a lot of

interesting research on that test and

it's highly correlated with SAT scores

with cognitive ability all these kinds

of things and I took this test and did

really well on it and that was the first

time that I realized you know my my

recruiter minor Force recruiter showed

me how to convert those scores into sat

results and he was like yeah this is

really good score and then later when I

was applying to college you know people

ask me like how did you get into a with

a 2.2 GPA in high school and one reason

was because I took the SAT uh later and

I got a really good score and I I had

taken some night classes at a community

college and kind of did some other

things too to kind of you know bolster

my my application but uh the SAT score

was really a thing that helped my

application shine through and and let

some of these colleges that I applied to

uh yeah they were willing to take a risk

on me despite my shoddy high school

performance one of my favorite studies

around this there was a study from 2016

led by The Economist David

card and he and his co-authors they ran

this study some School District in

Chicago where apparently the gifted

program at this District initially the

only way you could get into a gifted

program as a kid is if you either had a

a teacher recommendation it had to be

parent and teacher recommendation so it

was based on this kind of subjective

decision uh by these adults and what

David card and his co-authors did was

essentially uh administer tests to all

of these kids standardized tests to

every kid in the school district and

this actually increased the number of

Black and Hispanic and low-income

kidsing uh to qualify for this gifted

program essentially these kids were

being overlooked and they deserve this

gifted status but because of you know

whatever personal bias or misconceptions

about what a gifted child is supposed to

to look like these kids were being

overlooked by teachers by parents by

everyone else I mean part of it is that

if you're a parent and you're you know

you're you're you're not aware of like

how the system works or maybe you're not

even familiar with gifted programs even

if you have a smart kid it may not even

occur to you to tell the teacher hey I

think my kid is smart should we get them

into a gifted program but if every kid

is required to take a test and

automatically if you score above a

certain cuto you're just automatically

enrolled you can get a lot more kids who

ordinarily wouldn't go to these programs

and I just think yeah this is like the

test revealed something about these kids

that you you know that that uh personal

subjective evaluations alone can't uh

can't necessarily do yeah I mean I think

it's very interesting to watch people

talk about Merit as a racist idea it's

very upsetting actually to see that sort

of invective being used against these

Concepts that actually really really

help people get ahead in society and

it's sort of like

believing that you can ban and destroy

all thermometers and no children will

ever have a fever ever again it's like

that's not how it works like the

underlying construct still exists right

like the thing that you care about and

that predicts success academically and

professionally and everywhere else even

if you don't test it it's still going to

shine through and actually if you don't

teach kids to read and you don't teach

kids basic numeracy and all of the kind

of skills that you should equip them

with then they're they're going to fall

even further behind I mean we've seen

this over the last few years with

whatever woke kindergarten and shutting

down the schools and you know I I

remember there was the story of back in

LA county uh where I grew up at least

for part of my childhood where you know

the school district just decided to give

10,000 iPads to the kids and didn't

really monitor how closely these kids

were using these tablets to do well in

school they were supposed to improve

learning outcomes but instead these kids

were just playing games and it kind of

allowed the teachers to take this

hands-off approach of oh go on the iPad

and do XYZ and instead the kids would

just play games and you know that

probably made someone feel good about

themselves that they were doing

something but in the end it just ended

up backfiring and you know like a lot of

these policies are backfiring that we

you know I think a lot of these people

have good intentions and they want to

help these kids but unfortunately like

what makes you feel good and what

actually leads to improved outcomes for

disadvantaged kids those aren't always

the same thing and sometimes you have to

feel you know this is something that i'

I've started to learn through speaking

with teachers at charter schools and

parents and people who like a little bit

of tough love can be okay sometimes that

even if a kid in the moment doesn't like

you if you're telling them to do their

homework or you're telling them they

need to study or hit the books or

whatever it happens to be that even if

in the moment they're mad at you and you

feel bad and all those things like in

the end in the long term this is good

for them right like it's good to learn

to read it's good to learn to do math

and learn basic science and all those

things even if in the moment the kid is

upset with you and you'd much rather

just hand them an iPad and mentally

clock out but that doesn't help them

yeah I've often thought about that

phenomenon as um everyone could use a

little bit of an Asian parent maybe not

all the way maybe not the extreme that I

got but just a little bit just a little

encouragement a little bit of negative

motivation around you know oh you didn't

make it there like a little bit of Shame

not a lot of Shame not like traumatic

level of shame but a little bit like

just enough and a little bit goes a long

way on a lot of that stuff which is kind

of funny yeah I think yeah just like a

little bit of tiger parenting a little

bit of standards and expectations and

discipline and yeah you don't have to go

overboard with it but it's you know

having a little bit of that is much

better than just you know doing what

feels good and neglecting your

responsibilities to the kids for how are

they going to succeed in the world I

mean I had a lot of that kind of neglect

when I was a kid of I had to teach

myself how to read like once I learned

how important reading was I started to

do it but you know I there was this

story I tell in the book about how you

know I was in second grade I didn't know

how to read and the teacher asked me

what I wanted to be when I grew up and I

said I wanted to be a scientist and

she's like if you want to be a scientist

you have to learn to read and but I I

also thought like what else could I do

that doesn't require reading and then I

learned actually every job requires

reading essentially and more and more

now right like you have to have some

basic level of competence to do

basically any job in the modern economy

but at that time I I was just a kid kind

of lost and uh and gradually taught

myself but that was just you know a

bunch of adults abdicating their

responsibilities and that's not a great

thing to do we need we need to be

focusing more on how to how to help more

kids and you know even if not every kid

does go off to attend some expensive

Elite University that having basic

skills that's uh that's critical you

know it's important I think that that is

one of the scarier things that you know

I've come to realize over the course of

years even going to Stanford I didn't

really realize to what degree how much

of an advantage that was and then now of

course I'm like oh I got to work at a

Peter heel startup very early it was a

lot easier to raise money there's all

these biases about the elite sort of

helps its own and being able to join the

elite was a big deal and then of course

that feeds into the staus anxiety that

the elite feels for its own children and

then somewhere along the way that status

anxiety became toxic you know we somehow

disconnected the things that result in

good outcomes and we sort of like

covered it in ideology when did that

happen like I just don't I I feel like

that wasn't a thing when we were young

and when we were children and when we

were teenagers and then at some point in

the last 20 to 30 years there was sort

of a merging of specifically race-based

ideology and what really should be is a

system that serves the people and has

good outcomes and not only that the

recurring thing here is that if you

point out that there's a disconnect from

the outcomes you are attacked for

lacking the correct

ideology yeah I mean it's interesting

that timeline you mentioned the 20 to 30

years I mean

the like some version of meritocracy it

hasn't been perfect but it was kind of

it started in the 1960s with the SAT

where prior to the SAT and and sort of

widescale adoption of standardized

testing the elite schools it was

essentially you know this gentleman's

agreement that as long as you came from

the right wasp family or the right you

know whatever like you were a man of

character that you were able to go to

places like Harvard and Stanford and

Yale and uh and then yeah starting the

1960s it was more about sort of

merit-based uh admissions but I I do

wonder if once those people started to

have children I think meritocracy in

general and I know we don't have a

perfect meritocracy but we have as close

as any society has to like achieving it

and because it's uncomfortable and

because you know if you've made it in

that kind of system but you have kids

and you're worried about their future it

can be useful I think to adopt fuzzier

standards for admission and to expunge

the SAT and instead rely more on

recommendations and grades and

extracurriculars and if you have the

resources to send your kid to some

foreign country and have an adventure

that they can write about in their

personal statement so it does seem like

there's this kind of alliance between

you know very wealthy families and then

they're using the kind of they they're

they're sort of disguising their

self-interest in the language and the

ideology of our time around social

justice and identity politics and they

get to feel good about themselves while

simultaneously kind of giving their own

kids a leg up I mean I just saw this

article in New York Magazine that kids

from the top 1% of the income scale

applicants College applicants from the

top 1% of the income scale are 3 4% more

likely to be admitted to an elite

University than an average applicant

with the same test score that Advantage

is built in and it's only going to

magnify if the test is eliminated I mean

the test is imperfect and so on but

without it the disparities grow even

larger so yeah I think that the status

anxiety is interesting too I mean I I

saw that you know I had this perspective

you know I set foot on campus at Yale

after the foster homes and the military

and all you know this kind of unusual

background

and I remember thinking like wow I have

it made I can't believe I'm at Yale like

I can't believe I'm at college first of

all just like the fact that you know I'm

actually studying at a university but

then it's Yale no one goes to a place

like this and then ends up you know

unable to pay their bills or living on

the streets like I know that my future

by this point is as secure as it had

ever been And yet when I would speak

with the other students or with you know

recent graduates or you know the law

school student like you know basically

anyone with an affiliation professors

too honestly there was this underlying

feeling of like this constant you know

whatever Rat Race like running in that

hamster wheel of I'm not doing enough

you know there's that next Milestone

that next accomplishment that next thing

I need to do without any moment of just

sort of stepping back and saying wow I'm

like I'm here and I'm okay and I've you

know sort of entered these uh IV walls

and this special place but it wasn't

like that it was more so it was the most

status anxiety i' ever seen before and I

saw this study I've seen two studies

sense that on the same issue that people

who are at or near the top in terms of

socioeconomic status and wealth they

report the highest levels of Need for

status and wealth in other words these

studies and these researchers collected

objective measures of wealth and status

on the participants levels of income

education occupational Prestige and

found that people who are at or near the

top on those metrics were the most

likely to agree with statements like uh

it would please me to be in a position

of power over others I enjoy having

influence over those around me uh you

know I enjoy being recognized when I

walk into a room like those kinds of

things that it's actually people who are

doing very well objectively speaking who

also have this longing this this desire

for distinction and once I read those

studies I'm like yeah that that makes

sense there's something there that sort

of clicked into place for me what's the

path out of this are we getting better

is the discourse sort of turning you

know what's your feeling as of right now

I'm sure you're familiar and a lot of

your listeners you people have been

talking about a Vibe shift or we've

reached Peak woke or you know various

there variations of those ideas I think

that's probably right that where things

seem to slowly you know we always

overcorrect we can never just have a

nuanced and moderate response to

anything it seem seems like we always

have to swing back and forth and I'm

hoping we are sort of gradually coming

to our senses I hope we don't

overcorrect too far the other direction

but the very least kind of Step Back

From Where we've been over the last few

years but uh I think it takes it takes

conversations like this I think it takes

more you know and and I hope I

communicate this message at least in an

implicit way in my book that part of the

way we kind of overcome this

self-censorship this you know new wave

of political correctness or whatever you

want to call it that it just takes more

people with influence kind of speaking

out and being open and being honest and

conversations like this right of people

who have some kind of platform to just

kind of call out nonsense that actually

you know it's good for kids to learn

it's you know it's not it's not a great

idea to dismantle law enforcement or

what have you just very kind of Common

Sense ideas but there was a period in

2020 and 2021 where a lot of people

abdicated their responsibility to tell

the truth despite their wide platform

and large audience that they just kind

of went along and were afraid for

reputational reasons and on some level I

understood that I saw people lose their

jobs you know in Academia especially I

mean I was in the middle of my PhD

program and I was seeing a lot of the

behind the scenes people getting

pressured to resign or outright fired I

just think yeah could have this kind of

Return of I to say this term no bless

obl of just if you've been endowed with

certain advantages and privileges in

your life uh which I have undoubtedly

that uh yeah there's some duty to to

speak out a bit and to call out

misguided decision-making when you see

it that sounds like you know maybe one

of the themes of the book in some ways

that it's not just that the elites don't

see this side of society it's actually

that the

elites should see it and sort of

actually have a duty to steer Society to

create State capacity that creates good

outcomes the interesting thing is like

you know I'm still a moderate classic

liberal in that I actually really deeply

believe that Society does have a duty to

all its citizens like I mean it's I

don't think that that's that

revolutionary you know we want to a

government that actually works we want

schools that work we want life liberty

in the pursuit of Happy

and then that doesn't come for free and

we've got to fight for it yeah it's

funny like every this is something I've

only just now realized or you know sort

of adopted this view that you know I

used to think it was ridiculous like you

know again I've been in kind of higher

ed in these Elite universities the last

few years and I used to think it was

ridiculous all the debates about

academic freedom freedom of expression

you know the pursuit of Truth all of

this and like why is this a debate of

course we should have the these things

like how is this an argument in the

first place that we need to have but

gradually I'm realizing that it's not I

don't think it comes naturally you know

if you look at history freedom of speech

is like a very novel and strange

peculiar idea that it's only recently

taken hold in kind of the post

Enlightenment era and only in a select

few societies and it doesn't come

naturally I think and so it's like a tax

you have to pay to live in a free

society that you constantly have to

battle for it because there will always

be reasons to curtail people's freedoms

right and so you constantly have to take

some time aside and actually speak your

mind or whatever it is sign petition or

show support and solidarity for someone

who may be undergoing the slings and

arrows of some cancel culture mob or

whatever it is like I think of it as

like a social tax or something that uh

you just have to undergo it and and

realize yeah that um as absurd as some

of the arguments are they're actually

not atypical historically speaking that

that kind of We're the weird one for

believing in in all the you know the

life liberty and pursuit of happiness

and all that stuff like we're the kind

of atypical ones for supporting it in in

the scheme of things so that's kind of

how I've been thinking about it at least

in the last year or so and it's been

helping me to understand what's been

happening well we're going to keep

fighting Rob thank you so much for this

book everyone who's watching right now

go to Amazon your links in the

description to uh Rob's website I think

it's even a little bit better if you buy

it from buy it direct is that right or I

think yeah if you go to like the Simon

and chuster website or buy it from um

Bookshop or something or or you know

even better like a brick and morar

bookstore but uh you know however you

get your books as long as you get it

that sounds right so Rob thanks a lot

for coming on and sharing your wisdom

with us and uh we'll catch you on

Twitter thanks Gary this has been

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great

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