Foresight Conversations- Dr. Asad Zaman

Summary

In this interview, a distinguished academic shares his journey from the pinnacle of Western education and economics to embracing an Islamic lifestyle in Turkey. Initially groomed in the American school system and holding degrees from MIT and Stanford, he chose to leave the U.S. due to concerns about raising his children in a non-Islamic environment. His move to Turkey was serendipitous, as he received a job offer shortly after praying for guidance. He then transitioned from mainstream economics to Islamic economics, critiquing the former for its lack of engagement with real-world problems and its underlying ontological assumptions. He advocates for a genuine Islamic economic model that aligns with the spirit of Sharia, emphasizing spiritual progress and service to humanity over wealth accumulation. He also challenges the positivist foundation of statistics and econometrics, proposing an alternative methodology. His advice to the younger generation is to have confidence in their Islamic heritage and to seek guidance from the Quran in all fields of knowledge.

Takeaways

• 🌟 The interviewee was raised with an appreciation for the U.S. education system but was sent to Karachi American schools, eventually attending MIT and Stanford for higher education.
• 🌍 The decision to leave the U.S. was driven by the desire to raise children in an environment that was not hostile to Islam, leading to a move to an Islamic country.
• 🎓 The interviewee held academic positions at top-ranked universities such as Pennsylvania, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, and Caltech before making the shift.
• 👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 Personal experiences with colleagues' struggles in balancing successful careers with fulfilling personal lives influenced the decision to leave the academic environment in the U.S.
• 🕌 A move to an Islamic country was seen as a way to share the burden of Islamic training with the community, rather than solely relying on the family unit.
• 📜 The interviewee's academic background is in mathematics, statistics, and econometrics, with a PhD in economics.
• 💡 The realization that conventional economic theories did not apply to real-world problems led to an exploration of Islamic economics as an alternative framework.
• 🌿 Islamic economics offers a different paradigm for solving economic problems, which is more aligned with the interviewee's values and beliefs.
• 📈 The interviewee critiques conventional economics for its hidden ontological assumptions and its focus on maximizing pleasure in this world, which is not in line with Islamic teachings.
• 🔄 The current state of Islamic economics is seen as unsatisfactory, with a tendency to follow Western models rather than creating genuine Islamic alternatives.
• 🌐 The interviewee advocates for a deeper level of guidance from the Quran in all fields, including economics and statistics, and encourages the younger generation to trust in their heritage and seek guidance from the Quran.

Q & A

Why did the interviewee choose to leave the USA and move to Turkey and Pakistan?

The interviewee decided to leave the USA because they found it challenging to raise their children in an environment hostile to Islam. They wanted to move to an Islamic country where their children could be brought up in an Islamic environment without the burden of Islamic training falling solely on them and their spouse.

What was the interviewee's educational background before moving to an Islamic country?

The interviewee completed their bachelor's degree in Math from MIT and went on to do their Master's and PhD in Economics from Stanford. They also had appointments at top-ranked universities such as the University of Pennsylvania, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, and Caltech.

How did the interviewee's perspective on their career change after moving?

After moving, the interviewee shifted their focus from trying to get published in large papers to looking at problems facing the world and finding solutions to them. They realized that the conventional economic theories they had learned did not apply to the real-world problems they encountered.

What led the interviewee to develop an interest in Islamic economics and finance?

The interviewee became interested in Islamic economics and finance after realizing that the theories they had learned at Stanford were irrelevant to the real-world problems they were facing. They found that Islam provided a complete set of solutions for economic problems, which was very different from their Western training.

How does the interviewee view the philosophy behind conventional economics?

The interviewee believes that conventional economics is based on a flawed philosophy that posits rational behavior as maximizing pleasure from the consumption of goods and services. This does not align with Islamic teachings, which emphasize spiritual progress and service to humanity over the maximization of pleasure.

What is the interviewee's opinion on the current state of Islamic economics?

The interviewee is not satisfied with the current state of Islamic economics, as they believe it largely follows Western models and tries to islamize them, rather than creating genuine alternative models that align with the spirit of Sharia.

How does the interviewee suggest we should approach the teaching of statistics and econometrics?

The interviewee suggests that the teaching of statistics and econometrics should be reformed to align with a deeper understanding of reality that goes beyond surface appearances. They argue for an alternative methodology that does not rely on the positivist view, which they believe is flawed and leads to deceptive practices.

What advice does the interviewee have for the younger generation?

The interviewee advises the younger generation to have confidence in their heritage and to trust in the Quran for guidance. They believe that the Quran provides complete and perfect guidance, even in fields like economics and mathematics, and that this trust will lead to progress in all areas of knowledge.

How did the interviewee's experience with top-ranked economists influence their decision to leave the USA?

The interviewee was close to several Nobel prize-winning economists and observed that their personal lives were not fulfilling. This, coupled with the realization that their lives did not align with the interviewee's values, contributed to their decision to leave the USA and seek a more fulfilling path aligned with their Islamic beliefs.

What was the unexpected event that led the interviewee to accept a job in Turkey?

While the interviewee was praying for guidance, they received an unexpected job offer from Bilkent University in Turkey. They took this as a sign from Allah and decided to accept the position, which marked a significant shift in their career and approach to economics.

What is the interviewee's view on the role of philosophy in the development of a discipline?

The interviewee believes that philosophy, or worldview, plays a crucial role in the development of any discipline. They argue that conventional economics is based on a specific philosophy that may not align with Islamic principles, and that Islamic economics requires a different philosophy or worldview to construct and govern its approach.

Outlines

00:00

🌟 Personal Journey and Decision to Move

The speaker clarifies that they were not raised in the USA but attended American schools in Karachi. They pursued higher education in the US, completing a bachelor's degree in math at MIT and a Master's and PhD at Stanford. Despite having a successful academic career and being associated with Nobel laureates, the speaker felt that their personal life would be unfulfilling if they continued in that path. They decided to move to an Islamic country to raise their children in an environment that supports their Islamic faith. A job offer from Bilkent University in Turkey was seen as a sign from Allah, leading to a significant shift in their approach to economics.

05:01

📚 Rejection of Conventional Economic Theories

The speaker found that the economic theories learned at Stanford were irrelevant to the real-world problems they encountered. They consulted with professors but received no satisfactory answers. This realization led them to explore alternative solutions within the framework of Islam, which provided a different and more satisfying approach to economic problems. The speaker argues that conventional economics, which posits rational behavior as maximizing pleasure, is based on unspoken ontological assumptions that reject the existence of God and an afterlife, which contradicts Islamic beliefs.

10:02

🕌 The Spirit of Sharia in Islamic Economics

The speaker distinguishes between Sharia compliance and aligning with the spirit of Sharia in Islamic economics. They critique the current state of Islamic economics and finance for following Western models and merely trying to make them Sharia-compliant, rather than creating genuine Islamic alternatives. The speaker emphasizes that Islam encourages the use of wealth for spiritual progress and service to humanity, which is not reflected in current Islamic banking practices. They argue for a deeper engagement with Islamic principles in economic thought and practice.

15:05

🧠 Challenging Positivism in Statistics and Econometrics

The speaker challenges the positivist foundation of statistics and econometrics, which focuses on quantifiable surface appearances and neglects hidden realities. They argue that this approach is flawed and has led to incorrect developments in these disciplines. The speaker has developed an alternative methodology for 'real statistics' and is working on a book about it. They advise the younger generation to have confidence in their heritage and Islamic guidance, which they believe can revolutionize various fields, including economics and mathematics.

Keywords

💡Education

Education in the context of the video refers to the formal learning process that the interviewee underwent in the United States, starting from attending the Karachi American schools to completing degrees from prestigious institutions like MIT and Stanford. It highlights the journey of academic and professional development that led to the individual's eventual shift in focus towards Islamic economics and finance.

💡Career Shift

Career Shift refers to the interviewee's decision to leave a successful academic career in the United States to move to Turkey and Pakistan. This change was motivated by a desire to raise children in an environment that was more supportive of their Islamic faith, rather than the perceived hostility towards Islam in the U.S.

💡Islamic Economics

Islamic Economics is an economic system that integrates Islamic principles and values into economic activities. It contrasts with conventional economics by emphasizing ethical and moral considerations, such as fairness, justice, and the prohibition of usury (riba). The interviewee's interest in this field grew from a realization that conventional economic theories did not align with their Islamic beliefs and values.

💡Philosophy

In the context of the video, Philosophy refers to the underlying beliefs, values, and worldviews that guide economic theories and practices. The interviewee critiques conventional economics for its unspoken assumptions and argues for a philosophy that aligns with Islamic teachings, which prioritize spiritual progress and service to humanity over the maximization of pleasure and consumption.

💡Sharia Compliance

Sharia Compliance refers to the adherence to the Islamic law (Sharia) in financial and economic activities. It involves following principles such as justice, transparency, and ethical conduct. The interviewee discusses the difference between merely being Sharia compliant and truly engaging with the spirit of Sharia, which involves a deeper alignment with Islamic values.

💡Economics

Economics, as discussed in the video, is the social science that studies the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services. The interviewee challenges the conventional economic theories, which they view as being based on flawed assumptions and a lack of engagement with real-world problems. They advocate for an economic system that is more aligned with Islamic principles.

💡Econometrics

Econometrics is the application of statistical methods to economic data to give empirical content to economic relations. The interviewee, having a PhD in econometrics, critiques the positivist approach of econometrics, which focuses on measurable quantities and neglects the qualitative aspects of human behavior and decision-making.

💡Positivism

Positivism is a philosophical approach that emphasizes empirical evidence and scientific methods as the basis for knowledge. In the video, the interviewee criticizes positivism for its focus on observable phenomena and neglect of underlying realities, which they believe leads to a misunderstanding and misuse of statistics and econometrics.

💡Rationality

Rationality, as discussed in the video, refers to the idea of making decisions based on logical reasoning and self-interest. The interviewee challenges the conventional economic definition of rationality, which is centered on the maximization of pleasure and consumption, and instead proposes an Islamic perspective that values spiritual progress and ethical behavior.

💡Heritage

Heritage in the context of the video refers to the cultural, religious, and historical legacy of Islam, which the interviewee believes provides a comprehensive and revolutionary guidance for all aspects of life, including economics and academia. The interviewee encourages the younger generation to have confidence in their Islamic heritage as a source of wisdom and knowledge.

💡Value Neutrality

Value Neutrality is the concept that certain disciplines, such as statistics and econometrics, are objective and unbiased in their approach to knowledge. The interviewee challenges this notion by arguing that these disciplines are based on underlying ontological and epistemological assumptions that are not neutral but rather reflective of a particular worldview.

Highlights

The interviewee was sent to Karachi American schools by his father due to his admiration for the U.S. educational system.

At the age of 16, the interviewee went to MIT for his math degree.

The interviewee completed his bachelor's degree in three years.

He pursued his Master's and PhD at Stanford.

The interviewee had appointments at top-ranked universities such as Pennsylvania, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, and Caltech.

He faced a difficult choice between his career and the Islamic upbringing of his children.

The interviewee decided to move to an Islamic country to raise his children in a more supportive environment for their Islamic faith.

He received a job offer from Bilkent University in Turkey, which he took as a sign from Allah.

The interviewee shifted his focus from publishing in large papers to solving real-world problems.

He found that conventional economic theories did not apply to the problems he encountered in the real world.

The interviewee's PhD was in economics with an econometrics topic.

He became interested in Islamic economics and finance after realizing the irrelevance of conventional economic theories to real-world issues.

The interviewee believes that conventional economics is based on a flawed ontology and epistemology.

He argues that the rationality defined by conventional economics is different from the rationality in Islamic tradition.

The interviewee is not satisfied with the current state of Islamic economics, as it largely follows Western models.

He advocates for creating genuine Islamic alternatives rather than trying to islamize Western economic models.

The interviewee criticizes the positivist view underlying statistics and econometrics, calling it a mistake.

He has developed an alternative methodology for real statistics and is preparing a book on the subject.

The interviewee advises the young generation to have confidence in their heritage and to seek guidance from the Quran in all fields of knowledge.

Transcripts

foreign

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and thank you for giving the opportunity

to have a short interview thank you very

much for inviting me and I'm happy to be

here

that's why we were raised in USA

you completed your education in USA U.S

started teaching over there

and you could continue your career in

USA

but you opted to leave USA and came to

Turkey and in Pakistan

what motivated you to have this shift

from that's a good question and first of

all I was not raised in the USA I was

my father was very impressed by U.S

educational system so he had we had we

were

sent to Karachi American schools to

prepare us and at the age of 16 I went

to MIT for my math degree

and I completed my bachelor's in three

years and then I went to Stanford and

did my Master's in PhD

and after that I got appointments at top

ranked University Pennsylvania Columbia

Johns Hopkins

Caltech

uh

so actually during this process

I got married and I had some children

and at some point

I realized that

bringing up children in this environment

which is hostile to Islam is very

difficult

I knew that some people had done it

successfully

but I saw that it would require a lot of

time and effort which I did not

I was not prepared to put in so I had

faced with a very difficult choice

either I had to

abandon my career or I had to put the

risk put the future of my children in

terms of Islam at risk and I decided

after looking at it carefully I was in

the company of people who had

Nobel prizes in economics and I was on

close terms with many and I saw that

their lives were not the ones that I

wanted so even though it has its charms

to be a top-ranked economic uh to

academic

it was not really very fulfilling one of

my Nobel prize winning professors got

divorced and many other had not very

good personal lives

so I said that okay I'll abandon this

and I will move to an Islamic country

where I can bring up my children in an

Islamic environment so that all of the

burden of the Islamic training is not

upon me and my wife which is

what happens when you're living in alien

community so that was the main reason

and while I was making

Dua to Allah to guide me in this manner

and this matter

a letter from

came from Turkey

completely unexpectedly

offering me a job at Bill Kent

University so I took it as a sign from

Allah if something

I named it from Allah appears without

your

trying for it then I thought that this

was meant as an answer to my prayers and

so I accepted this job at Bill Kent

which was

a big move for me and

it had a lot of effects in terms of

changing my approach to my field

of economics and

instead of trying to get published in

large papers I started looking at

problems facing the world that we were

living in trying to find solutions to

them and I found that the solutions that

had been given to me in the books and

the theories simply didn't apply

so anyway that was the motivation for my

living the USA and yeah

we know that your basic education and

your master's degree

that's in statistics and Mathematics

PD in econometrics

and what made you interested in Islamic

economics and finance

well my PhD was actually in economics

although the thesis was an econometrics

topic and as I said when I moved to

Billikens I started looking at problems

with the real world

and also problems with the using data to

analyze and I realized

that none of the theories that I had

learned at Stanford

uh applied to any of the problems that I

were seeing they were simply irrelevant

that was a big surprise to me and I

actually consulted my professors that

these are the problems we are having the

books that we studied make no mention of

this

so they had no answers for me so I

realized that economic theory as it's

conventionally taught

doesn't have doesn't actually engage

with real world problems

and this was then I started looking for

answers

and I found Solutions

gradually

um

and eventually I realized that our

religion offers a complete set of

solutions which are simply very

dramatically different from

the training that I had been

taught to believe in and those ideas

were all wrong and led to bad results

but Islam provided me with the framework

and a paradigm to solve economic

problems which was

very different from anything that I had

been taught in the west and was a very

satisfactory and intuitively appealing

and

also based on the experience of the

Islamic civilization it's really

interesting

you would export in Islamic economics

and

for the development of any discipline

philosophical or the worldview

that is

dead plate in very crucial role

for example traditional economics

has a specific philosophy a specific

would be

do you think that we can use the same

word or Philosophy for the construction

and the government of Islamic economics

are we need a different philosophy a

different word of view so what do you

opinion and their thoughts yeah

you see the the

conventional economics

poses as a science and

claims to be of universal application

so it says that rational Behavior

for human beings is to maximize the

pleasure that they receive from

consumption of goods and services now

this doesn't match anything that we see

nobody ever tells us to maximize the

pleasure that we get from consumption

so this is a big puzzle I mean the

on the one hand

economics itself claims to be the truth

and many Muslim economists have been

deceived by this claim and have said

okay since this is true then the Quran

and the Hadith and what they talk about

in terms of

having

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limiting our needs this cannot be

correct so they

um modify their interpretation of the

Quran to match economic theory because

they take it to be the truth as it

claims to be

but the other option is also there that

we reject

economic theory

and so this is what

I did

when I came to realize that

economic theory is wrong

and many of the basic claims that they

make are based on hidden

ontological assumptions

so for example

what is ontology well basically if you

look at the history of Europe you see

that they rejected Christianity for a

number of complicated reasons

uh main among them is actually that they

were a century of Wars between

Protestants and Catholics which were

very violent and

destroyed

huge proportions of European population

and these were fights between families

because somebody was Protestant somebody

was Catholic

so this had a very dramatic effect on

the

European thought process they said

religion cannot be used to build Society

because it leads to Wars so we need to

rebuild economics after rejecting

Christianity so the you see you see the

effects of this rejection in economic

theory if you reject God and you reject

Judgment Day and reject

afterlife

then you only have the life of this

world

then it makes sense to say that it is

rational to maximize pleasure

because there's nothing else

but if there is an afterlife and

judgment and it makes no sense to

maximize pleasure in this Dunya because

real success is Success on the day of

judgment so this basic epistemology this

basic ontological Choice does God exist

or not this is never mentioned but this

is essential to the theory now if they

were honest and open they would say okay

we have rejected God and therefore we

say that you should maximize pleasure in

this world

and if you accept God then this is not

rational but

the way they have defined rationality

believing in God is also irrational so

this question doesn't come in

so

basically the philosophy the metaphysics

the ontology all of this is built into a

package but the problem is that it is

concealed

and so they present as security for

example as a objective phenomena whereas

it is actually normative as I have shown

in my papers so a lot of hidden Norms

are built into economics and they are

hidden within this concept of

rationality

and these have deceived Muslims because

Muslims say yes rationality of course we

all accept rationality rationality is

part of our religion too not realizing

that uh what Europeans are calling

rationality is very different from what

our intellectual tradition calls

rationality

are you satisfied with the current state

of Islamic economics

or how we can make it more Sharia

compliant yeah you see there's a

great difference between Sharia

compliance and uh engaging with the

spirit of the Sharia

so a lot of effort I think that Islamic

economics may be Sharia compliant but it

is not aligned with the spirit of the

Sharia one very simple way to understand

the difference

and basically the the problem is again

this that Muslim economists and

financiers have been deceived by the

claims the false claims that are made

by Western economists that this is a

science

and that capitalism has made a lot of

progress and that following our

institutionals

institutional structures is the best way

to make progress so once we believe this

then all that can be done is that we

should islamize these things because we

believe that these are the best but if

you think that these things are bad then

there is no need to islamize them you

can just

just remove them from the picture and

create an alternative a genuine Islamic

alternative

so I think that the on the whole

the current state of affairs in Islamic

economics and finances highly

unsatisfactory

we are basically following Western

models and trying to islamize them

instead of producing genuine alternative

models

so

to give an example the in the banking

industry

the Western banking system says that we

should accumulate wealth and I will show

you how to do it

regardless of Haram or Halal they are

not cared so the Islamic Finance says

that okay we we will go ahead and

maximize wealth but I will show you how

to do it in a Halal way

but Allah in the Quran says that what

should you do with excess wealth you

should spend it on others and so when

one person went to the prophet

sallallahu saying that I have a lot of

Mal what should I do with it he said

create a wax the question is what should

be done with excess wealth and the

answer in capitalism is use it to make

even more excess wealth which is a very

silly answer because if you have once

you have enough your your needs you

don't need more wealth and you should

spend it on others who have the need of

it and that is the answer which Islam

gives so

on the other hand is Islamic banking but

in Islam Islamic civilization throughout

the main use of excess money was to

build buff to earn the akhara

because our religion teaches us to Value

the success on the in their day of

judgment and so people use their wealth

to purchase the akhara the Raza of Allah

has recommended in the Quran

so uh

using money to create more money in

halal ways may be permissible but it's

not really aligned with the purpose of

this of Islamic

economy the purpose of this is to use

wealth for Spiritual progress for task

for service to humanity

for service to the creation of God for

the sake of the love of God so this is

nowhere within the Islamic financer

banking but this is the main purpose of

using of wealth Islamic economic is not

a value neutral

but you know that statistics mathematics

are econometrics

these subjects are

value neutral

so do you think that we should teach

these these subjects is are taught in

other universities or you have a

different opinion related to that yes

it's not value neutrality that matters

actually it's the

ontology and epistemology which is

underlying these disciplines and it is

very wrong

basically statistics and econometrics

which are happen to be my specialties

are based on a positivist view which

says that surface appearances are all

that matter and the hidden reality does

not matter

and this means that we put all emphasis

on numbers because if we can see

something then we can usually quantify

it and measure it but what is hidden

through the the love in the heart or the

researchers quality this is a hidden

unknown variable

but the number of Publications number of

words

Journal influence index Etc these things

can be measured but one thing is a very

imperfect reflection of the other so

what positivism does is that it takes

the number

as a measure of

the reality and this is a big mistake

and it leads to problems all over the

world the entire discipline of

Statistics is based on this mistake and

for a century they have been working on

these lines and

all these developments are wrong and I

have

developed an alternative methodology and

approach which I have a draft of my book

on

how to do real statistics

is now available I'm working on

preparing for publication

so again just like economics is a

deception it seems to be something which

it is not so statistics and econometrics

are deception you can use them to prove

anything you like once you understand

how it works then you can take any data

and use it to prove any thesis

so it's not it seems like we are

learning from the data but actually we

are imposing our preconceptions and the

data and using the techniques that are

available to get the data to support

whatever it is that we are saying

so any advice for our Young Generation

yes I think that the fundamental problem

that we face is lack of confidence in

our heritage

I believe that the message of the Quran

today is just as revolutionary as it was

14 centuries ago and really all of my

work is based on this fundamental Axiom

that the Quran provides complete and

perfect guidance for us today and it

does so even in these fields where

currently we are not looking to Quran

for guidance like economics and

statistics and Mathematics in all of

these areas

the Quran provides us Guidance with how

to do those things even though it

doesn't tell us how to solve the

quadratic equation but it provides a

deeper level of guidance it provides us

with the foundation

the

ory of knowledge which tells us what is

useful knowledge and what is useless

knowledge and how we can

assess what kind of statistics and

Mathematics will be useful for the

service of mankind and when you start

looking at things in this Islamic

framework that how can I use mathematics

to succeed on the day of judgment

then the whole subject becomes different

this is what this idea is what has been

guided me in my research for the last

several decades and it is the most

powerful message for the Muslim youth

that trust in your Heritage Trust in

your Quran trust in your God and he will

guide you to

uh

make progress in ulum just like the

early Muslims they came out of nowhere

and they became world leaders in the

development of all the ulum

so I think that's

a tissue

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