Foresight Conversations- Dr. Asad Zaman
Summary
TLDRIn this interview, a distinguished academic shares his journey from the pinnacle of Western education and economics to embracing an Islamic lifestyle in Turkey. Initially groomed in the American school system and holding degrees from MIT and Stanford, he chose to leave the U.S. due to concerns about raising his children in a non-Islamic environment. His move to Turkey was serendipitous, as he received a job offer shortly after praying for guidance. He then transitioned from mainstream economics to Islamic economics, critiquing the former for its lack of engagement with real-world problems and its underlying ontological assumptions. He advocates for a genuine Islamic economic model that aligns with the spirit of Sharia, emphasizing spiritual progress and service to humanity over wealth accumulation. He also challenges the positivist foundation of statistics and econometrics, proposing an alternative methodology. His advice to the younger generation is to have confidence in their Islamic heritage and to seek guidance from the Quran in all fields of knowledge.
Takeaways
- π The interviewee was raised with an appreciation for the U.S. education system but was sent to Karachi American schools, eventually attending MIT and Stanford for higher education.
- π The decision to leave the U.S. was driven by the desire to raise children in an environment that was not hostile to Islam, leading to a move to an Islamic country.
- π The interviewee held academic positions at top-ranked universities such as Pennsylvania, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, and Caltech before making the shift.
- π¨βπ©βπ§βπ¦ Personal experiences with colleagues' struggles in balancing successful careers with fulfilling personal lives influenced the decision to leave the academic environment in the U.S.
- π A move to an Islamic country was seen as a way to share the burden of Islamic training with the community, rather than solely relying on the family unit.
- π The interviewee's academic background is in mathematics, statistics, and econometrics, with a PhD in economics.
- π‘ The realization that conventional economic theories did not apply to real-world problems led to an exploration of Islamic economics as an alternative framework.
- πΏ Islamic economics offers a different paradigm for solving economic problems, which is more aligned with the interviewee's values and beliefs.
- π The interviewee critiques conventional economics for its hidden ontological assumptions and its focus on maximizing pleasure in this world, which is not in line with Islamic teachings.
- π The current state of Islamic economics is seen as unsatisfactory, with a tendency to follow Western models rather than creating genuine Islamic alternatives.
- π The interviewee advocates for a deeper level of guidance from the Quran in all fields, including economics and statistics, and encourages the younger generation to trust in their heritage and seek guidance from the Quran.
Q & A
Why did the interviewee choose to leave the USA and move to Turkey and Pakistan?
-The interviewee decided to leave the USA because they found it challenging to raise their children in an environment hostile to Islam. They wanted to move to an Islamic country where their children could be brought up in an Islamic environment without the burden of Islamic training falling solely on them and their spouse.
What was the interviewee's educational background before moving to an Islamic country?
-The interviewee completed their bachelor's degree in Math from MIT and went on to do their Master's and PhD in Economics from Stanford. They also had appointments at top-ranked universities such as the University of Pennsylvania, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, and Caltech.
How did the interviewee's perspective on their career change after moving?
-After moving, the interviewee shifted their focus from trying to get published in large papers to looking at problems facing the world and finding solutions to them. They realized that the conventional economic theories they had learned did not apply to the real-world problems they encountered.
What led the interviewee to develop an interest in Islamic economics and finance?
-The interviewee became interested in Islamic economics and finance after realizing that the theories they had learned at Stanford were irrelevant to the real-world problems they were facing. They found that Islam provided a complete set of solutions for economic problems, which was very different from their Western training.
How does the interviewee view the philosophy behind conventional economics?
-The interviewee believes that conventional economics is based on a flawed philosophy that posits rational behavior as maximizing pleasure from the consumption of goods and services. This does not align with Islamic teachings, which emphasize spiritual progress and service to humanity over the maximization of pleasure.
What is the interviewee's opinion on the current state of Islamic economics?
-The interviewee is not satisfied with the current state of Islamic economics, as they believe it largely follows Western models and tries to islamize them, rather than creating genuine alternative models that align with the spirit of Sharia.
How does the interviewee suggest we should approach the teaching of statistics and econometrics?
-The interviewee suggests that the teaching of statistics and econometrics should be reformed to align with a deeper understanding of reality that goes beyond surface appearances. They argue for an alternative methodology that does not rely on the positivist view, which they believe is flawed and leads to deceptive practices.
What advice does the interviewee have for the younger generation?
-The interviewee advises the younger generation to have confidence in their heritage and to trust in the Quran for guidance. They believe that the Quran provides complete and perfect guidance, even in fields like economics and mathematics, and that this trust will lead to progress in all areas of knowledge.
How did the interviewee's experience with top-ranked economists influence their decision to leave the USA?
-The interviewee was close to several Nobel prize-winning economists and observed that their personal lives were not fulfilling. This, coupled with the realization that their lives did not align with the interviewee's values, contributed to their decision to leave the USA and seek a more fulfilling path aligned with their Islamic beliefs.
What was the unexpected event that led the interviewee to accept a job in Turkey?
-While the interviewee was praying for guidance, they received an unexpected job offer from Bilkent University in Turkey. They took this as a sign from Allah and decided to accept the position, which marked a significant shift in their career and approach to economics.
What is the interviewee's view on the role of philosophy in the development of a discipline?
-The interviewee believes that philosophy, or worldview, plays a crucial role in the development of any discipline. They argue that conventional economics is based on a specific philosophy that may not align with Islamic principles, and that Islamic economics requires a different philosophy or worldview to construct and govern its approach.
Outlines
π Personal Journey and Decision to Move
The speaker clarifies that they were not raised in the USA but attended American schools in Karachi. They pursued higher education in the US, completing a bachelor's degree in math at MIT and a Master's and PhD at Stanford. Despite having a successful academic career and being associated with Nobel laureates, the speaker felt that their personal life would be unfulfilling if they continued in that path. They decided to move to an Islamic country to raise their children in an environment that supports their Islamic faith. A job offer from Bilkent University in Turkey was seen as a sign from Allah, leading to a significant shift in their approach to economics.
π Rejection of Conventional Economic Theories
The speaker found that the economic theories learned at Stanford were irrelevant to the real-world problems they encountered. They consulted with professors but received no satisfactory answers. This realization led them to explore alternative solutions within the framework of Islam, which provided a different and more satisfying approach to economic problems. The speaker argues that conventional economics, which posits rational behavior as maximizing pleasure, is based on unspoken ontological assumptions that reject the existence of God and an afterlife, which contradicts Islamic beliefs.
π The Spirit of Sharia in Islamic Economics
The speaker distinguishes between Sharia compliance and aligning with the spirit of Sharia in Islamic economics. They critique the current state of Islamic economics and finance for following Western models and merely trying to make them Sharia-compliant, rather than creating genuine Islamic alternatives. The speaker emphasizes that Islam encourages the use of wealth for spiritual progress and service to humanity, which is not reflected in current Islamic banking practices. They argue for a deeper engagement with Islamic principles in economic thought and practice.
π§ Challenging Positivism in Statistics and Econometrics
The speaker challenges the positivist foundation of statistics and econometrics, which focuses on quantifiable surface appearances and neglects hidden realities. They argue that this approach is flawed and has led to incorrect developments in these disciplines. The speaker has developed an alternative methodology for 'real statistics' and is working on a book about it. They advise the younger generation to have confidence in their heritage and Islamic guidance, which they believe can revolutionize various fields, including economics and mathematics.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘Education
π‘Career Shift
π‘Islamic Economics
π‘Philosophy
π‘Sharia Compliance
π‘Economics
π‘Econometrics
π‘Positivism
π‘Rationality
π‘Heritage
π‘Value Neutrality
Highlights
The interviewee was sent to Karachi American schools by his father due to his admiration for the U.S. educational system.
At the age of 16, the interviewee went to MIT for his math degree.
The interviewee completed his bachelor's degree in three years.
He pursued his Master's and PhD at Stanford.
The interviewee had appointments at top-ranked universities such as Pennsylvania, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, and Caltech.
He faced a difficult choice between his career and the Islamic upbringing of his children.
The interviewee decided to move to an Islamic country to raise his children in a more supportive environment for their Islamic faith.
He received a job offer from Bilkent University in Turkey, which he took as a sign from Allah.
The interviewee shifted his focus from publishing in large papers to solving real-world problems.
He found that conventional economic theories did not apply to the problems he encountered in the real world.
The interviewee's PhD was in economics with an econometrics topic.
He became interested in Islamic economics and finance after realizing the irrelevance of conventional economic theories to real-world issues.
The interviewee believes that conventional economics is based on a flawed ontology and epistemology.
He argues that the rationality defined by conventional economics is different from the rationality in Islamic tradition.
The interviewee is not satisfied with the current state of Islamic economics, as it largely follows Western models.
He advocates for creating genuine Islamic alternatives rather than trying to islamize Western economic models.
The interviewee criticizes the positivist view underlying statistics and econometrics, calling it a mistake.
He has developed an alternative methodology for real statistics and is preparing a book on the subject.
The interviewee advises the young generation to have confidence in their heritage and to seek guidance from the Quran in all fields of knowledge.
Transcripts
foreign
[Music]
and thank you for giving the opportunity
to have a short interview thank you very
much for inviting me and I'm happy to be
here
that's why we were raised in USA
you completed your education in USA U.S
started teaching over there
and you could continue your career in
USA
but you opted to leave USA and came to
Turkey and in Pakistan
what motivated you to have this shift
from that's a good question and first of
all I was not raised in the USA I was
my father was very impressed by U.S
educational system so he had we had we
were
sent to Karachi American schools to
prepare us and at the age of 16 I went
to MIT for my math degree
and I completed my bachelor's in three
years and then I went to Stanford and
did my Master's in PhD
and after that I got appointments at top
ranked University Pennsylvania Columbia
Johns Hopkins
Caltech
uh
so actually during this process
I got married and I had some children
and at some point
I realized that
bringing up children in this environment
which is hostile to Islam is very
difficult
I knew that some people had done it
successfully
but I saw that it would require a lot of
time and effort which I did not
I was not prepared to put in so I had
faced with a very difficult choice
either I had to
abandon my career or I had to put the
risk put the future of my children in
terms of Islam at risk and I decided
after looking at it carefully I was in
the company of people who had
Nobel prizes in economics and I was on
close terms with many and I saw that
their lives were not the ones that I
wanted so even though it has its charms
to be a top-ranked economic uh to
academic
it was not really very fulfilling one of
my Nobel prize winning professors got
divorced and many other had not very
good personal lives
so I said that okay I'll abandon this
and I will move to an Islamic country
where I can bring up my children in an
Islamic environment so that all of the
burden of the Islamic training is not
upon me and my wife which is
what happens when you're living in alien
community so that was the main reason
and while I was making
Dua to Allah to guide me in this manner
and this matter
a letter from
came from Turkey
completely unexpectedly
offering me a job at Bill Kent
University so I took it as a sign from
Allah if something
I named it from Allah appears without
your
trying for it then I thought that this
was meant as an answer to my prayers and
so I accepted this job at Bill Kent
which was
a big move for me and
it had a lot of effects in terms of
changing my approach to my field
of economics and
instead of trying to get published in
large papers I started looking at
problems facing the world that we were
living in trying to find solutions to
them and I found that the solutions that
had been given to me in the books and
the theories simply didn't apply
so anyway that was the motivation for my
living the USA and yeah
we know that your basic education and
your master's degree
that's in statistics and Mathematics
PD in econometrics
and what made you interested in Islamic
economics and finance
well my PhD was actually in economics
although the thesis was an econometrics
topic and as I said when I moved to
Billikens I started looking at problems
with the real world
and also problems with the using data to
analyze and I realized
that none of the theories that I had
learned at Stanford
uh applied to any of the problems that I
were seeing they were simply irrelevant
that was a big surprise to me and I
actually consulted my professors that
these are the problems we are having the
books that we studied make no mention of
this
so they had no answers for me so I
realized that economic theory as it's
conventionally taught
doesn't have doesn't actually engage
with real world problems
and this was then I started looking for
answers
and I found Solutions
gradually
um
and eventually I realized that our
religion offers a complete set of
solutions which are simply very
dramatically different from
the training that I had been
taught to believe in and those ideas
were all wrong and led to bad results
but Islam provided me with the framework
and a paradigm to solve economic
problems which was
very different from anything that I had
been taught in the west and was a very
satisfactory and intuitively appealing
and
also based on the experience of the
Islamic civilization it's really
interesting
you would export in Islamic economics
and
for the development of any discipline
philosophical or the worldview
that is
dead plate in very crucial role
for example traditional economics
has a specific philosophy a specific
would be
do you think that we can use the same
word or Philosophy for the construction
and the government of Islamic economics
are we need a different philosophy a
different word of view so what do you
opinion and their thoughts yeah
you see the the
conventional economics
poses as a science and
claims to be of universal application
so it says that rational Behavior
for human beings is to maximize the
pleasure that they receive from
consumption of goods and services now
this doesn't match anything that we see
nobody ever tells us to maximize the
pleasure that we get from consumption
so this is a big puzzle I mean the
on the one hand
economics itself claims to be the truth
and many Muslim economists have been
deceived by this claim and have said
okay since this is true then the Quran
and the Hadith and what they talk about
in terms of
having
[Music]
limiting our needs this cannot be
correct so they
um modify their interpretation of the
Quran to match economic theory because
they take it to be the truth as it
claims to be
but the other option is also there that
we reject
economic theory
and so this is what
I did
when I came to realize that
economic theory is wrong
and many of the basic claims that they
make are based on hidden
ontological assumptions
so for example
what is ontology well basically if you
look at the history of Europe you see
that they rejected Christianity for a
number of complicated reasons
uh main among them is actually that they
were a century of Wars between
Protestants and Catholics which were
very violent and
destroyed
huge proportions of European population
and these were fights between families
because somebody was Protestant somebody
was Catholic
so this had a very dramatic effect on
the
European thought process they said
religion cannot be used to build Society
because it leads to Wars so we need to
rebuild economics after rejecting
Christianity so the you see you see the
effects of this rejection in economic
theory if you reject God and you reject
Judgment Day and reject
afterlife
then you only have the life of this
world
then it makes sense to say that it is
rational to maximize pleasure
because there's nothing else
but if there is an afterlife and
judgment and it makes no sense to
maximize pleasure in this Dunya because
real success is Success on the day of
judgment so this basic epistemology this
basic ontological Choice does God exist
or not this is never mentioned but this
is essential to the theory now if they
were honest and open they would say okay
we have rejected God and therefore we
say that you should maximize pleasure in
this world
and if you accept God then this is not
rational but
the way they have defined rationality
believing in God is also irrational so
this question doesn't come in
so
basically the philosophy the metaphysics
the ontology all of this is built into a
package but the problem is that it is
concealed
and so they present as security for
example as a objective phenomena whereas
it is actually normative as I have shown
in my papers so a lot of hidden Norms
are built into economics and they are
hidden within this concept of
rationality
and these have deceived Muslims because
Muslims say yes rationality of course we
all accept rationality rationality is
part of our religion too not realizing
that uh what Europeans are calling
rationality is very different from what
our intellectual tradition calls
rationality
are you satisfied with the current state
of Islamic economics
or how we can make it more Sharia
compliant yeah you see there's a
great difference between Sharia
compliance and uh engaging with the
spirit of the Sharia
so a lot of effort I think that Islamic
economics may be Sharia compliant but it
is not aligned with the spirit of the
Sharia one very simple way to understand
the difference
and basically the the problem is again
this that Muslim economists and
financiers have been deceived by the
claims the false claims that are made
by Western economists that this is a
science
and that capitalism has made a lot of
progress and that following our
institutionals
institutional structures is the best way
to make progress so once we believe this
then all that can be done is that we
should islamize these things because we
believe that these are the best but if
you think that these things are bad then
there is no need to islamize them you
can just
just remove them from the picture and
create an alternative a genuine Islamic
alternative
so I think that the on the whole
the current state of affairs in Islamic
economics and finances highly
unsatisfactory
we are basically following Western
models and trying to islamize them
instead of producing genuine alternative
models
so
to give an example the in the banking
industry
the Western banking system says that we
should accumulate wealth and I will show
you how to do it
regardless of Haram or Halal they are
not cared so the Islamic Finance says
that okay we we will go ahead and
maximize wealth but I will show you how
to do it in a Halal way
but Allah in the Quran says that what
should you do with excess wealth you
should spend it on others and so when
one person went to the prophet
sallallahu saying that I have a lot of
Mal what should I do with it he said
create a wax the question is what should
be done with excess wealth and the
answer in capitalism is use it to make
even more excess wealth which is a very
silly answer because if you have once
you have enough your your needs you
don't need more wealth and you should
spend it on others who have the need of
it and that is the answer which Islam
gives so
on the other hand is Islamic banking but
in Islam Islamic civilization throughout
the main use of excess money was to
build buff to earn the akhara
because our religion teaches us to Value
the success on the in their day of
judgment and so people use their wealth
to purchase the akhara the Raza of Allah
has recommended in the Quran
so uh
using money to create more money in
halal ways may be permissible but it's
not really aligned with the purpose of
this of Islamic
economy the purpose of this is to use
wealth for Spiritual progress for task
for service to humanity
for service to the creation of God for
the sake of the love of God so this is
nowhere within the Islamic financer
banking but this is the main purpose of
using of wealth Islamic economic is not
a value neutral
but you know that statistics mathematics
are econometrics
these subjects are
value neutral
so do you think that we should teach
these these subjects is are taught in
other universities or you have a
different opinion related to that yes
it's not value neutrality that matters
actually it's the
ontology and epistemology which is
underlying these disciplines and it is
very wrong
basically statistics and econometrics
which are happen to be my specialties
are based on a positivist view which
says that surface appearances are all
that matter and the hidden reality does
not matter
and this means that we put all emphasis
on numbers because if we can see
something then we can usually quantify
it and measure it but what is hidden
through the the love in the heart or the
researchers quality this is a hidden
unknown variable
but the number of Publications number of
words
Journal influence index Etc these things
can be measured but one thing is a very
imperfect reflection of the other so
what positivism does is that it takes
the number
as a measure of
the reality and this is a big mistake
and it leads to problems all over the
world the entire discipline of
Statistics is based on this mistake and
for a century they have been working on
these lines and
all these developments are wrong and I
have
developed an alternative methodology and
approach which I have a draft of my book
on
how to do real statistics
is now available I'm working on
preparing for publication
so again just like economics is a
deception it seems to be something which
it is not so statistics and econometrics
are deception you can use them to prove
anything you like once you understand
how it works then you can take any data
and use it to prove any thesis
so it's not it seems like we are
learning from the data but actually we
are imposing our preconceptions and the
data and using the techniques that are
available to get the data to support
whatever it is that we are saying
so any advice for our Young Generation
yes I think that the fundamental problem
that we face is lack of confidence in
our heritage
I believe that the message of the Quran
today is just as revolutionary as it was
14 centuries ago and really all of my
work is based on this fundamental Axiom
that the Quran provides complete and
perfect guidance for us today and it
does so even in these fields where
currently we are not looking to Quran
for guidance like economics and
statistics and Mathematics in all of
these areas
the Quran provides us Guidance with how
to do those things even though it
doesn't tell us how to solve the
quadratic equation but it provides a
deeper level of guidance it provides us
with the foundation
the
ory of knowledge which tells us what is
useful knowledge and what is useless
knowledge and how we can
assess what kind of statistics and
Mathematics will be useful for the
service of mankind and when you start
looking at things in this Islamic
framework that how can I use mathematics
to succeed on the day of judgment
then the whole subject becomes different
this is what this idea is what has been
guided me in my research for the last
several decades and it is the most
powerful message for the Muslim youth
that trust in your Heritage Trust in
your Quran trust in your God and he will
guide you to
uh
make progress in ulum just like the
early Muslims they came out of nowhere
and they became world leaders in the
development of all the ulum
so I think that's
a tissue
[Music]
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