Design Thinking Q&A with Clark Kellogg and Stephane Matsushita
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful discussion, design thinking experts Clark Kellogg and Stefan Matsushita join to explore the mindset and process of design thinking, emphasizing the importance of a 'yes and' approach, optimism, and curiosity. They differentiate design thinking from traditional problem-solving methods by its iterative, user-centered process and the focus on finding the problem rather than simply solving it. The conversation also touches on the challenges and strategies of prototyping and testing across cultures, highlighting the need for humility and a continuous learning mindset in innovation.
Takeaways
- ๐ The most important element of design thinking mindset is the 'yes and' approach and optimism, which encourages looking for the good in solutions and improving them.
- ๐ Design thinking begins with acknowledging that we don't know the answer, unlike other problem-solving methods that often start with a preconceived notion or hypothesis.
- ๐ก Curiosity is emphasized as a vital component of design thinking, driving learning and exploration without judgment.
- ๐ Design thinking involves a quest for knowledge through research, interviews, and understanding user needs, rather than relying on past solutions.
- ๐ค The process of design thinking is about living in the gray area, focusing on finding the problem rather than just solving it.
- ๐ When diverging, it's important not to settle for the most obvious answer but to push beyond common sense and explore unconventional ideas.
- ๐ Prototyping and testing are about learning and iterating, not just proving a hypothesis right, but understanding its true value and potential for improvement.
- ๐ฉโ๐ฆ The 'ask your mother' approach to testing is about understanding if the user can relate to and comprehend the solution, but it should be expanded to include a broader range of perspectives.
- ๐ Cross-cultural design thinking requires humility and the recognition that language and cultural differences can be overcome by focusing on shared human experiences and values.
- ๐ฑ Innovation is a fundamental part of human evolution and progress, and it will continue as we seek to improve and find new values, even when comfort and stability are achieved.
Q & A
What is the most important element of the design thinking mindset?
-The most important element of the design thinking mindset is the 'yes and' attitude combined with optimism. This mindset encourages looking for the good in solutions and thinking of ways to improve them, even if they may initially seem inadequate.
How does Clark Kellogg define the value of curiosity in design thinking?
-Clark Kellogg emphasizes that curiosity is more important than judgment in design thinking. Curiosity drives all work in the field, fueling the learning process. Without curiosity, there is nothing to learn, but with it, there is everything to discover.
How does design thinking differ from other problem-solving methods?
-Design thinking begins by acknowledging that we do not know the answer. It involves a quest for knowledge through research, interviews, and understanding the problems faced by users. Unlike other methods that may rely on pre-existing solutions, design thinking focuses on learning and adapting to the specific context at hand.
What is the key difference between design thinking and traditional problem-solving approaches?
-The key difference is that design thinking focuses on finding the problem rather than just solving it. It involves living in a gray area, exploring beyond the obvious, and embracing the unknown to uncover deeper insights and innovative solutions.
How should one approach diverging when generating ideas in design thinking?
-When diverging, one should start from common points but then push beyond them to explore strange or curious ideas. The goal is to expand beyond common sense and consider possibilities that may not immediately seem like the 'right' answer.
Why can't one just converge on a solution if they already know the answer?
-Even if you think you know the answer from past experience, it's important to explore other potential solutions. The future may require new approaches, and converging too quickly can eliminate a world of possibilities that could lead to better outcomes.
What is the purpose of prototyping and testing in the design thinking process?
-Prototyping and testing help validate hypotheses and potential solutions by learning from the process. It's about understanding whether an idea works and identifying areas for improvement, rather than just proving the solution to be perfect.
How can the 'ask your mother' approach be useful in testing hypotheses?
-The 'ask your mother' approach is a way to quickly gauge the understandability and appeal of a solution with someone who may represent the target user. However, it's important to diversify testing to include actual potential users for more accurate feedback.
What are some challenges of conducting design thinking across cultures?
-Cross-cultural design thinking requires overcoming language barriers and understanding cultural differences in thought processes and feelings. It involves humility, a willingness to learn, and the ability to observe and adapt to the nuances of different cultures.
How can one approach prototyping and testing across cultures?
-Approaching prototyping across cultures involves using methods that transcend language barriers, such as visual or video communication. The goal is to build prototypes that can be tested without relying heavily on verbal explanations.
Will there ever be a point when innovation is no longer needed because humans have reached the maximum level of comfort?
-The panelists do not believe that such a point will come. Innovation is a fundamental part of human evolution and progress. Even when a certain level of comfort is achieved, humans will continue to seek new values and challenges, driving further innovation.
Outlines
๐ค Introduction and the Design Thinking Mindset
The video begins with a greeting and an introduction to the topic of design thinking. The speaker introduces colleagues Clark Kellogg and Stefan Matsushita, both experts in design thinking. They discuss the most important element of the design thinking mindset, emphasizing the 'yes and' mentality and optimism. The speakers agree that curiosity is more important than judgment and that even seemingly inadequate solutions should be explored for potential value. They also differentiate design thinking from other problem-solving methods by highlighting the importance of starting without preconceived answers and engaging in research and user interaction to inform the process.
๐ Divergence and the Importance of Expanding Ideas
The conversation shifts to the process of design thinking, with a focus on divergence. The speakers discuss the common misconception that the most frequently mentioned ideas are the best to pursue. They emphasize the need to push beyond comfort zones and explore new, unheard ideas. The speakers address the concern of whether one can skip the process if they already know the answer, arguing that design thinking encourages exploring multiple solutions and directions, not just the familiar or comfortable ones.
๐ Prototyping and Testing Hypotheses
The speakers delve into the aspects of prototyping and testing within design thinking. They clarify the difference between testing and proving a hypothesis, stressing that the goal is to learn through testing rather than to conclusively prove an idea. The importance of prototyping in education is highlighted, with examples from Clark's experience at Hokkaido University. The speakers discuss the value of learning by doing and the iterative nature of prototyping. They also touch on the 'ask your mother' approach to testing and the need for diverse testing methods to cater to different user perspectives.
๐ Cross-Cultural Design and Humility in Innovation
The panel discusses the challenges and strategies of applying design thinking across cultures. They share insights on conducting 'mother tests' and the importance of understanding and respecting cultural differences. The speakers emphasize the need for humility when working in unfamiliar cultural contexts, advocating for non-verbal communication methods and observation to bridge language barriers. They also reflect on the universal human desire for improvement and the endless potential for innovation, regardless of cultural boundaries.
๐ The Future of Innovation
In the final segment, the speakers address the question of whether there will ever be a point when innovation is no longer necessary because humans have reached the maximum level of comfort. They unanimously agree that innovation is an inherent part of human progress and will continue indefinitely. They argue that even when a certain level of comfort is achieved, humans will seek new values and challenges, ensuring that the pursuit of innovation never ends. The video concludes on an inspirational note about the human capacity for continuous improvement and the power of optimism in driving innovation.
Mindmap
Keywords
๐กDesign Thinking
๐กMindset
๐กCuriosity
๐กOptimization
๐กPrototyping
๐กTesting
๐กInnovation
๐กCross-Cultural
๐กHypothesis
๐กUser-Centered
๐กIterative
Highlights
Introduction of design thinking experts Clark Kellogg and Stefan Matsushita, who join the discussion to address questions on design thinking.
The importance of a 'yes and' mindset in design thinking, emphasizing optimism and looking for the good in solutions.
The value of curiosity over judgment in the design thinking process, as curiosity drives learning and exploration.
Design thinking's distinction from other problem-solving methods, starting with not knowing the answer and seeking knowledge through research and user interaction.
The scientific method's similarity to design thinking, with the approach of forming a hypothesis and learning from it rather than simply proving or disproving it.
The critical aspect of design thinking is finding the problem rather than just solving it, using hypotheses to guide the discovery process.
The divergence process in design thinking involves moving beyond common sense and exploring strange or curious ideas.
The discussion on whether the most common response from users is necessarily the right solution to pursue.
The concept of living in the gray area and not just proving or disproving a hypothesis, but understanding its true value.
The importance of prototyping and testing in the design thinking process, allowing for learning and improvement through hands-on experience.
The 'ask your mother' approach to testing hypotheses, and the need for diverse testing methods to cater to different user perspectives.
The challenges and strategies of conducting mother tests across cultures, emphasizing the need for humility and learning from the user's perspective.
The role of innovation in human evolution and the belief that the need for innovation will never cease, as humans continually strive for improvement.
The idea that even in a future where everything is digitalized and comfortable, people will seek new values and experiences, ensuring continuous innovation.
The conclusion that innovation is a fundamental part of the human experience and will persist as we seek new plateaus of comfort, justice, and love.
Transcripts
good morning
everyone uh I'm we are responding to
some of the questions that you posted in
the chat um and I decided to bring some
friends along for the journey um I'd
like to first introduce my colleague
Clark Kellogg who also teaches here at
UC Berkeley's High School of Business um
and Stefan Matsushita who's teaches at
to University in Japan and both design
thinking experts and I figure we would
bring this to your class um and answer
some of your questions so um I will let
the three of us will answer but um
I we want to talk about the mindset of
design thinking and so what is the most
important element of design thinking
mindset okay uh I would like to say that
it would be the yes and mindset with the
optimism because uh I think the most
important thing in the design thinking
is to think a better way to any kind of
result or Sol uh solution or something
so we should think that even it is seem
to be a not so good uh solution idea we
need to find what would be a good thing
in this solution of idea and how we can
prove it much better I think that is the
most important mindset is I thinking yes
and you Clark most important mindset
well I agree with Stefan's idea and I
would add to it yes and the value of
curiosity as being much more important
than judgment so curiosity drives all of
our work without it we learn nothing and
with it we have everything to learn
curiosity is the fuel and with that
Clark what would you say um how does
design thinking differ from other
problem solving methods yes the
principal difference Jeff I would say is
that with design thinking We Begin by
saying we don't know the answer we don't
know anything about this but we're going
to find out and so begins our quest for
knowledge we do research we do
interviews we call it desk research
where we learn all about the problems
faed and then we talk to the users the
people who will benefit from the work we
do and once that is done we inform all
of the succeeding steps with u with what
we learned now other processes are
hypothesis do them where we think let's
see I see what that problem is I know
another time it was solved that way so
we'll just take the old solution and
implement it with this new problem even
if we don't know exactly all of the
components yeah good point and I think
that it's different because in design
thinking um it's like the scientific
method in that you come with a
hypothesis but um instead of just trying
to prove or disprove that hypothesis we
take a different approach so how do you
approach it Stefan not just prove or
disprove but live in this gray area okay
I think the most deep point is that not
to think how to solve the problem but to
how to find the problem so therefore we
put some Hypes to help us to find the
problem and how to act to find the
problem so that I think that would be
the most important difference and the
key point for the design thinking
compared to the traditional way
nice that's our thoughts on the mindset
now shifting to the process of design
thinking um one uh thing Stephen that
comes up very often is um when we are
diverging isn't it easier to
just think what has the most responses
or what did we hear the most in our
interview just because something is the
largest quantity of responses does that
mean that that is what we should do is
that the right answer I would say no I
think you can start from that point
right but you should go out to that
point so me that first you can begin
from that point that by doing yes and or
reflame a little bit you you should try
to go out of this common sense and go a
little bit go to the maybe strange ideas
or impressive ideas curious ideas I
think that is a the way that the
direction that you should go in the
diverse Point yeah good point I I agree
that it's um just
because it's the most com it's the most
obvious answer to your users today does
not mean that it is pushing the limits
of desirability feasibility viability
and have potential for future success
and one of the important elements of
that comment and that concept is the
notion of living in our comfort zone
versus pushing ourselves outside of it
to try those new things those unheard
neverbe heard ideas and often times we
reject the things we've never thought
about or heard about because we say well
if it was a good idea someone else would
have done it by now and the fact is that
that is a fallacy it's not necessarily
true it's that no one else has actually
had the courage to investigate those
NE so Stephan that lead leads me to the
next question of if I already know the
answer why can't I just
converge you meant that if you know the
answer I already know the answer yeah I
already know I I've been in this job for
10 years I know how this happens why
can't I just converge if I already know
the answer so I think it is just you
know one answer mhm but you don't know
the
other so it mean that you just know one
thing that maybe work before but uh to
go in the future you should know much
more answers and for that you should con
you should do a conver in maybe in
different direction you should push your
convers direction maybe to the another
way maybe in the opposite
dire maybe the opposite direction but
that's scary right Clark to say well the
design thinking process is taking me in
an opposite direction yes how do we
address that
well we address it through curiosity and
not judgment the fact that it's quote
opposite does that make it bad no it
makes it Opposite well opposite is a
judgment that we're making so that if we
apply those kinds of uh Frameworks
opposite or uh it's never been done
before or we've done it this way in the
past and it worked those are all ways of
not really investigating the problem and
as Stefan said the question is the most
important piece of it so when we
shortcut the way that Jeff described it
we eliminate a whole world of
possibilities is is it is it more work
sure is it less profitable if you're
Consulting yes is it a better solution
no no
no let's move on to prototyping and
testing so we talked about the mindset
the process and now we want to ask about
prototyping and testing so some of the
questions that came in um is again Clark
this is a broad question but you might
have an opinion is how do we test or
prove a hypothesis it's interesting the
student use the word test and prove and
I think they're
different what's your opinion well
testing a hypothesis or a potential
solution is a process of
learning we try something we see what
happens we're not in design thinking
invested in a yes answer we're invested
in what is true about that solution or
the testing of a hypothesis so that a
test and prove is a little different
testing is learning proving is coming to
conclusion that the answer is right and
both are legitimate we can prove things
but we only prove it by testing and
improving and uh and using and that's
how we learn if something is a good
answer good solution for yeah you do a
lot of prototyping in your class at to
Hoku University um how do you feel that
that helps the students as they're
testing hypothesis well the I think for
the student they can understand by
testing hypothesis making prototype and
test with the user then
they they can at first can uh know
whether their idea work or not so and
they can find what should be improve as
PL in so and uh it is also important to
iterate the prototypes and uh by doing
that they can understand that testing
hypothesis doesn't mean that make a
perfect one just some just make it some
make something can be test M and it
it helps student to do something and
learn from them learn from doing
learning learn by doing is so important
to learn by doing and we can talk all
day about an idea but if we don't build
it we will never truly know Clark one
form of prototyping or hypothesis
testing if you will um is the ask your
mother type of approach um and and if
you're you know would your mother like
it or could your mother understand this
Etc um is that an a good approach are
there other approaches how do you go
about that it's a good approach and
there are other
approaches totally right yeah I mean my
mom knows some things but right well our
our moms know some things uh our fathers
know some things our children know some
things and we all know some things um
and the potential user knows some things
yes they do and that's the voice to
trust the most now sometimes one's mom
is the user father right but it is in
the not so much the voice of what has
what you've heard of and trusted in the
past but the voice of the user that
you're working with in the present and
the difference between imagining
something and experiencing something is
a world of difference imagining is I can
describe a solution to you and how
beautifully it might
work um experiencing it is you testing
it giving a response to it and feedback
therefore teaching me what I didn't know
before and the more the design thinker
can understand about the potential
solution from the users it's I think
plainly obvious that the product or
service or outcome will improve
yeah what I mean one this group of
students that will be viewing this are
are mainly in the Ukraine and so here
we've brought together Japan and the US
different similar but different and
again with the folks in Ukraine there's
similarities and differences um I know
you've worked in Estonia which is you
know in in the same part of the world
tell us how do you do a mother test if
you will across cult cultures or are
there other tools you would use to
design across
cultures across
culture that interesting I'm glad Jeff
asked you that question yeah yeah I mean
while you're thinking about that the one
thing we've talked about is uh we shared
with the students today was this idea
that in America an idea fails or a
business fails but that doesn't mean
that the person is a failure um whereas
in other cultures that that feeling of
of loss is personal rather than on the
idea so um how do you approach um across
cultures for example I know your
students here on this trip Japanese
students intercepted American students
and had
conversations was it different or at the
end of the day was it very similar to
what they know I see yeah of course
there is a lot of difference and the for
me uh I think if I will Design uh
crosscultural
interview or a test M I will try to
think how we can do that without
language o wow because language is the
of course I think often is the most
higher barrier mhm and also the thing
that student or people think that differ
but uh the point the most the Deep point
the difference is culture and how the
feel how they think and to observe it I
think we don't sometime language help it
but it it doesn't mean that we should
have some language communication right
maybe we can do just a photograph
communication we can do video
communication I think yeah to do such
kind of thing I will try to build such
kind of prototype and test with it cross
culture
that's an incredible thought to yes
and when we I think when anyone works
cross-culturally we have to approach
that with a high degree of humility
there are so let's say I was working
with you in Ukraine there's so much I
don't know about Ukraine about you about
your language your culture I read the
headlines about the war but I'm a very
uninformed person when it comes
understanding your country and your
custom and your needs and so by thinking
I know something that I don't know by
being somewhat hristic about it I'm
losing the capacity to work deeply into
your kind of problem not my impression
of your kind of problem so bringing
humility to this to be um curious uh to
exert the knowled I don't know much I
certainly don't know enough to impose a
solution
cross-culturally I think it's it's
essential that we bring a deep level of
humility and and thirst for learning to
any kind of work I
agree and just to wrap up this short
video we wanted to address the biggest
question you gave us and I think we're
all a little Terri if to answer this but
we'll do our best the question was do
you believe that at some point in time
there will be no need for Innovation as
the life of humans will have achieved
the maximum level of
comfort well there will be no need for
Innovation because humans will have
reached the maximum level of comfort
well the quick answer is no I don't
believe that time will ever come why do
I say
that and I'm looking forward to having
more voices in this but we've evolved as
a species through Innovation Innovation
is not
new um humans have been innovating since
humans gathered together in tribes so
that it has always been our capacity to
think new thoughts to innovate that has
created the different the great advances
of human life uh on Earth it has also
been uh that capacity to innovate or
that drive toward efficiency and profits
that is fueled from Bad Innovations
around greed and power but The
Human Experience is an experience of
making things better of having an
optimistic view of the world that things
can always be improved and if that ever
stops I don't think it will be because
humans have achieved a maximum level of
comfort when humans reach that level uh
it's just another Plateau from which to
start innovating maximum level of
justice of peace
of of Love around the
world it's powerful thought right when
we reach that level of comfort hopefully
we begin to innovate on other human
centered AES Justice
love Professor Ste all right so my
answer also is
no and for that I yeah I have one
experience in the when I go to the
Estonia so I had one student who write a
very beautiful learning report he said
that if
in the 50 years later in the future we
have all things digitalized and
everything is we can do in one button
and it is very comfortable places then
the value will be
uncomfortable the people will try to be
uncomfortable maybe without the
digital so mean that if in the future
you will be in a society in the world
which is comfortable then people will
try will start to seek in a different
value and that value maybe will be
uncomfortable or another Plateau so mean
that and the Innovation will never end
because in each point the human will try
to find some
needs wonderful that's incredibly
inspirational yeah well with that note
uh I agree that we are not done
innovating but I do agree that the video
is
over yeah so on behalf of Clark and
Stephan thank you so much we send our
best and we'll see you
next
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