Design Thinking Q&A with Clark Kellogg and Stephane Matsushita

Summary

In this insightful discussion, design thinking experts Clark Kellogg and Stefan Matsushita join to explore the mindset and process of design thinking, emphasizing the importance of a 'yes and' approach, optimism, and curiosity. They differentiate design thinking from traditional problem-solving methods by its iterative, user-centered process and the focus on finding the problem rather than simply solving it. The conversation also touches on the challenges and strategies of prototyping and testing across cultures, highlighting the need for humility and a continuous learning mindset in innovation.

Takeaways

• 🌟 The most important element of design thinking mindset is the 'yes and' approach and optimism, which encourages looking for the good in solutions and improving them.
• 🔍 Design thinking begins with acknowledging that we don't know the answer, unlike other problem-solving methods that often start with a preconceived notion or hypothesis.
• 💡 Curiosity is emphasized as a vital component of design thinking, driving learning and exploration without judgment.
• 🚀 Design thinking involves a quest for knowledge through research, interviews, and understanding user needs, rather than relying on past solutions.
• 🤔 The process of design thinking is about living in the gray area, focusing on finding the problem rather than just solving it.
• 🌐 When diverging, it's important not to settle for the most obvious answer but to push beyond common sense and explore unconventional ideas.
• 🔄 Prototyping and testing are about learning and iterating, not just proving a hypothesis right, but understanding its true value and potential for improvement.
• 👩‍👦 The 'ask your mother' approach to testing is about understanding if the user can relate to and comprehend the solution, but it should be expanded to include a broader range of perspectives.
• 🌍 Cross-cultural design thinking requires humility and the recognition that language and cultural differences can be overcome by focusing on shared human experiences and values.
• 🌱 Innovation is a fundamental part of human evolution and progress, and it will continue as we seek to improve and find new values, even when comfort and stability are achieved.

Q & A

What is the most important element of the design thinking mindset?

The most important element of the design thinking mindset is the 'yes and' attitude combined with optimism. This mindset encourages looking for the good in solutions and thinking of ways to improve them, even if they may initially seem inadequate.

How does Clark Kellogg define the value of curiosity in design thinking?

Clark Kellogg emphasizes that curiosity is more important than judgment in design thinking. Curiosity drives all work in the field, fueling the learning process. Without curiosity, there is nothing to learn, but with it, there is everything to discover.

How does design thinking differ from other problem-solving methods?

Design thinking begins by acknowledging that we do not know the answer. It involves a quest for knowledge through research, interviews, and understanding the problems faced by users. Unlike other methods that may rely on pre-existing solutions, design thinking focuses on learning and adapting to the specific context at hand.

What is the key difference between design thinking and traditional problem-solving approaches?

The key difference is that design thinking focuses on finding the problem rather than just solving it. It involves living in a gray area, exploring beyond the obvious, and embracing the unknown to uncover deeper insights and innovative solutions.

How should one approach diverging when generating ideas in design thinking?

When diverging, one should start from common points but then push beyond them to explore strange or curious ideas. The goal is to expand beyond common sense and consider possibilities that may not immediately seem like the 'right' answer.

Why can't one just converge on a solution if they already know the answer?

Even if you think you know the answer from past experience, it's important to explore other potential solutions. The future may require new approaches, and converging too quickly can eliminate a world of possibilities that could lead to better outcomes.

What is the purpose of prototyping and testing in the design thinking process?

Prototyping and testing help validate hypotheses and potential solutions by learning from the process. It's about understanding whether an idea works and identifying areas for improvement, rather than just proving the solution to be perfect.

How can the 'ask your mother' approach be useful in testing hypotheses?

The 'ask your mother' approach is a way to quickly gauge the understandability and appeal of a solution with someone who may represent the target user. However, it's important to diversify testing to include actual potential users for more accurate feedback.

What are some challenges of conducting design thinking across cultures?

Cross-cultural design thinking requires overcoming language barriers and understanding cultural differences in thought processes and feelings. It involves humility, a willingness to learn, and the ability to observe and adapt to the nuances of different cultures.

How can one approach prototyping and testing across cultures?

Approaching prototyping across cultures involves using methods that transcend language barriers, such as visual or video communication. The goal is to build prototypes that can be tested without relying heavily on verbal explanations.

Will there ever be a point when innovation is no longer needed because humans have reached the maximum level of comfort?

The panelists do not believe that such a point will come. Innovation is a fundamental part of human evolution and progress. Even when a certain level of comfort is achieved, humans will continue to seek new values and challenges, driving further innovation.

Outlines

00:00

🤝 Introduction and the Design Thinking Mindset

The video begins with a greeting and an introduction to the topic of design thinking. The speaker introduces colleagues Clark Kellogg and Stefan Matsushita, both experts in design thinking. They discuss the most important element of the design thinking mindset, emphasizing the 'yes and' mentality and optimism. The speakers agree that curiosity is more important than judgment and that even seemingly inadequate solutions should be explored for potential value. They also differentiate design thinking from other problem-solving methods by highlighting the importance of starting without preconceived answers and engaging in research and user interaction to inform the process.

05:00

🌟 Divergence and the Importance of Expanding Ideas

The conversation shifts to the process of design thinking, with a focus on divergence. The speakers discuss the common misconception that the most frequently mentioned ideas are the best to pursue. They emphasize the need to push beyond comfort zones and explore new, unheard ideas. The speakers address the concern of whether one can skip the process if they already know the answer, arguing that design thinking encourages exploring multiple solutions and directions, not just the familiar or comfortable ones.

10:04

📝 Prototyping and Testing Hypotheses

The speakers delve into the aspects of prototyping and testing within design thinking. They clarify the difference between testing and proving a hypothesis, stressing that the goal is to learn through testing rather than to conclusively prove an idea. The importance of prototyping in education is highlighted, with examples from Clark's experience at Hokkaido University. The speakers discuss the value of learning by doing and the iterative nature of prototyping. They also touch on the 'ask your mother' approach to testing and the need for diverse testing methods to cater to different user perspectives.

15:08

🌍 Cross-Cultural Design and Humility in Innovation

The panel discusses the challenges and strategies of applying design thinking across cultures. They share insights on conducting 'mother tests' and the importance of understanding and respecting cultural differences. The speakers emphasize the need for humility when working in unfamiliar cultural contexts, advocating for non-verbal communication methods and observation to bridge language barriers. They also reflect on the universal human desire for improvement and the endless potential for innovation, regardless of cultural boundaries.

20:09

🚀 The Future of Innovation

In the final segment, the speakers address the question of whether there will ever be a point when innovation is no longer necessary because humans have reached the maximum level of comfort. They unanimously agree that innovation is an inherent part of human progress and will continue indefinitely. They argue that even when a certain level of comfort is achieved, humans will seek new values and challenges, ensuring that the pursuit of innovation never ends. The video concludes on an inspirational note about the human capacity for continuous improvement and the power of optimism in driving innovation.

Keywords

💡Design Thinking

Design Thinking is a problem-solving approach that encourages empathy, experimentation, and iterative learning. It is a process that focuses on understanding the needs of the users and involves five stages: empathize, define, ideate, prototype, and test. In the video, the speakers discuss the importance of adopting a design thinking mindset, which involves optimism and curiosity, to innovate and improve solutions. They emphasize that design thinking is distinct from traditional problem-solving methods because it begins without preconceived answers and involves a deep understanding of the problem through research and user interaction.

💡Mindset

In the context of the video, mindset refers to the mental attitude or inclination towards certain ways of thinking, especially in relation to problem-solving and innovation. The speakers emphasize the importance of having a 'yes and' mindset, which involves optimism and the willingness to build upon ideas, rather than a negative or judgmental approach. This mindset is crucial for design thinking as it fosters an environment where ideas can be freely explored and improved upon.

💡Curiosity

Curiosity, as discussed in the video, is the desire to learn or know more about something. It is a key element of the design thinking mindset because it drives the exploration of possibilities and the pursuit of understanding. Curiosity encourages individuals to ask questions, seek answers, and learn from the process, which is essential for innovation and problem-solving.

💡Optimization

Optimization refers to the process of making something as fully perfect, effective, or functional as possible. In the context of the video, it is related to the iterative process of design thinking where prototypes are tested and improved upon. The goal is to enhance the value, efficiency, and effectiveness of a solution or product by continuously refining it based on feedback and learning.

💡Prototyping

Prototyping in the video refers to the creation of a preliminary model or version of a product or idea. It is a crucial step in the design thinking process that allows for testing and evaluation before finalizing the solution. Prototyping enables individuals to gain insights from users, identify potential issues, and make necessary improvements.

💡Testing

Testing in the context of the video is the act of evaluating a hypothesis or prototype to see how it performs in real-world conditions. It is a critical part of the design thinking process that involves gathering data and feedback to learn from and improve the proposed solution. Testing is not about proving the solution is right but about understanding its true value and potential for improvement.

💡Innovation

Innovation is the process of introducing new ideas, methods, or products to improve or make changes. It is central to the video's theme, as the speakers discuss the importance of continuous innovation driven by a mindset of optimism and curiosity. Innovation is seen as a fundamental human trait that has led to progress and is expected to continue indefinitely, as humans strive for betterment in various aspects of life.

💡Cross-Cultural

Cross-cultural refers to the interaction or understanding between different cultures. In the video, this concept is important when discussing design thinking and innovation, as it involves adapting and applying these principles across diverse cultural contexts. The speakers mention the need for humility and a thirst for learning when working cross-culturally, emphasizing the importance of understanding and respecting cultural differences.

💡Hypothesis

A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon, made as a starting point for further investigation. In the context of the video, it relates to the initial ideas or potential solutions in the design thinking process. Hypotheses are tested and refined through prototyping and user feedback, allowing for the development of more effective and user-centered solutions.

💡User-Centered

User-centered design is an approach to product or service development that focuses on the needs, preferences, and experiences of the end-users. It is a core principle in design thinking, emphasizing empathy and understanding of the users to create solutions that truly meet their requirements. The video highlights the importance of engaging with users throughout the design process to ensure that the final product or solution is relevant and valuable to them.

💡Iterative

Iterative refers to a process of repetition or cycling through stages, often with the goal of refinement and improvement. In the context of the video, it is used to describe the design thinking process, where ideas and prototypes are continually revised based on feedback and learning. The iterative nature of design thinking allows for the exploration of multiple possibilities and the enhancement of solutions over time.

Highlights

Introduction of design thinking experts Clark Kellogg and Stefan Matsushita, who join the discussion to address questions on design thinking.

The importance of a 'yes and' mindset in design thinking, emphasizing optimism and looking for the good in solutions.

The value of curiosity over judgment in the design thinking process, as curiosity drives learning and exploration.

Design thinking's distinction from other problem-solving methods, starting with not knowing the answer and seeking knowledge through research and user interaction.

The scientific method's similarity to design thinking, with the approach of forming a hypothesis and learning from it rather than simply proving or disproving it.

The critical aspect of design thinking is finding the problem rather than just solving it, using hypotheses to guide the discovery process.

The divergence process in design thinking involves moving beyond common sense and exploring strange or curious ideas.

The discussion on whether the most common response from users is necessarily the right solution to pursue.

The concept of living in the gray area and not just proving or disproving a hypothesis, but understanding its true value.

The importance of prototyping and testing in the design thinking process, allowing for learning and improvement through hands-on experience.

The 'ask your mother' approach to testing hypotheses, and the need for diverse testing methods to cater to different user perspectives.

The challenges and strategies of conducting mother tests across cultures, emphasizing the need for humility and learning from the user's perspective.

The role of innovation in human evolution and the belief that the need for innovation will never cease, as humans continually strive for improvement.

The idea that even in a future where everything is digitalized and comfortable, people will seek new values and experiences, ensuring continuous innovation.

The conclusion that innovation is a fundamental part of the human experience and will persist as we seek new plateaus of comfort, justice, and love.

Transcripts

good morning

everyone uh I'm we are responding to

some of the questions that you posted in

the chat um and I decided to bring some

friends along for the journey um I'd

like to first introduce my colleague

Clark Kellogg who also teaches here at

UC Berkeley's High School of Business um

and Stefan Matsushita who's teaches at

to University in Japan and both design

thinking experts and I figure we would

bring this to your class um and answer

some of your questions so um I will let

the three of us will answer but um

I we want to talk about the mindset of

design thinking and so what is the most

important element of design thinking

mindset okay uh I would like to say that

it would be the yes and mindset with the

optimism because uh I think the most

important thing in the design thinking

is to think a better way to any kind of

result or Sol uh solution or something

so we should think that even it is seem

to be a not so good uh solution idea we

need to find what would be a good thing

in this solution of idea and how we can

prove it much better I think that is the

most important mindset is I thinking yes

and you Clark most important mindset

well I agree with Stefan's idea and I

would add to it yes and the value of

curiosity as being much more important

than judgment so curiosity drives all of

our work without it we learn nothing and

with it we have everything to learn

curiosity is the fuel and with that

Clark what would you say um how does

design thinking differ from other

problem solving methods yes the

principal difference Jeff I would say is

that with design thinking We Begin by

saying we don't know the answer we don't

know anything about this but we're going

to find out and so begins our quest for

knowledge we do research we do

interviews we call it desk research

where we learn all about the problems

faed and then we talk to the users the

people who will benefit from the work we

do and once that is done we inform all

of the succeeding steps with u with what

we learned now other processes are

hypothesis do them where we think let's

see I see what that problem is I know

another time it was solved that way so

we'll just take the old solution and

implement it with this new problem even

if we don't know exactly all of the

components yeah good point and I think

that it's different because in design

thinking um it's like the scientific

method in that you come with a

hypothesis but um instead of just trying

to prove or disprove that hypothesis we

take a different approach so how do you

approach it Stefan not just prove or

disprove but live in this gray area okay

I think the most deep point is that not

to think how to solve the problem but to

how to find the problem so therefore we

put some Hypes to help us to find the

problem and how to act to find the

problem so that I think that would be

the most important difference and the

key point for the design thinking

compared to the traditional way

nice that's our thoughts on the mindset

now shifting to the process of design

thinking um one uh thing Stephen that

comes up very often is um when we are

diverging isn't it easier to

just think what has the most responses

or what did we hear the most in our

interview just because something is the

largest quantity of responses does that

mean that that is what we should do is

that the right answer I would say no I

think you can start from that point

right but you should go out to that

point so me that first you can begin

from that point that by doing yes and or

reflame a little bit you you should try

to go out of this common sense and go a

little bit go to the maybe strange ideas

or impressive ideas curious ideas I

think that is a the way that the

direction that you should go in the

diverse Point yeah good point I I agree

that it's um just

because it's the most com it's the most

obvious answer to your users today does

not mean that it is pushing the limits

of desirability feasibility viability

and have potential for future success

and one of the important elements of

that comment and that concept is the

notion of living in our comfort zone

versus pushing ourselves outside of it

to try those new things those unheard

neverbe heard ideas and often times we

reject the things we've never thought

about or heard about because we say well

if it was a good idea someone else would

have done it by now and the fact is that

that is a fallacy it's not necessarily

true it's that no one else has actually

had the courage to investigate those

NE so Stephan that lead leads me to the

next question of if I already know the

answer why can't I just

converge you meant that if you know the

answer I already know the answer yeah I

already know I I've been in this job for

10 years I know how this happens why

can't I just converge if I already know

the answer so I think it is just you

know one answer mhm but you don't know

the

other so it mean that you just know one

thing that maybe work before but uh to

go in the future you should know much

more answers and for that you should con

you should do a conver in maybe in

different direction you should push your

convers direction maybe to the another

way maybe in the opposite

dire maybe the opposite direction but

that's scary right Clark to say well the

design thinking process is taking me in

an opposite direction yes how do we

address that

well we address it through curiosity and

not judgment the fact that it's quote

opposite does that make it bad no it

makes it Opposite well opposite is a

judgment that we're making so that if we

apply those kinds of uh Frameworks

opposite or uh it's never been done

before or we've done it this way in the

past and it worked those are all ways of

not really investigating the problem and

as Stefan said the question is the most

important piece of it so when we

shortcut the way that Jeff described it

we eliminate a whole world of

possibilities is is it is it more work

sure is it less profitable if you're

Consulting yes is it a better solution

no no

no let's move on to prototyping and

testing so we talked about the mindset

the process and now we want to ask about

prototyping and testing so some of the

questions that came in um is again Clark

this is a broad question but you might

have an opinion is how do we test or

prove a hypothesis it's interesting the

student use the word test and prove and

I think they're

different what's your opinion well

testing a hypothesis or a potential

solution is a process of

learning we try something we see what

happens we're not in design thinking

invested in a yes answer we're invested

in what is true about that solution or

the testing of a hypothesis so that a

test and prove is a little different

testing is learning proving is coming to

conclusion that the answer is right and

both are legitimate we can prove things

but we only prove it by testing and

improving and uh and using and that's

how we learn if something is a good

answer good solution for yeah you do a

lot of prototyping in your class at to

Hoku University um how do you feel that

that helps the students as they're

testing hypothesis well the I think for

the student they can understand by

testing hypothesis making prototype and

test with the user then

they they can at first can uh know

whether their idea work or not so and

they can find what should be improve as

PL in so and uh it is also important to

iterate the prototypes and uh by doing

that they can understand that testing

hypothesis doesn't mean that make a

perfect one just some just make it some

make something can be test M and it

it helps student to do something and

learn from them learn from doing

learning learn by doing is so important

to learn by doing and we can talk all

day about an idea but if we don't build

it we will never truly know Clark one

form of prototyping or hypothesis

testing if you will um is the ask your

mother type of approach um and and if

you're you know would your mother like

it or could your mother understand this

Etc um is that an a good approach are

there other approaches how do you go

about that it's a good approach and

there are other

approaches totally right yeah I mean my

mom knows some things but right well our

our moms know some things uh our fathers

know some things our children know some

things and we all know some things um

and the potential user knows some things

yes they do and that's the voice to

trust the most now sometimes one's mom

is the user father right but it is in

the not so much the voice of what has

what you've heard of and trusted in the

past but the voice of the user that

you're working with in the present and

the difference between imagining

something and experiencing something is

a world of difference imagining is I can

describe a solution to you and how

beautifully it might

work um experiencing it is you testing

it giving a response to it and feedback

therefore teaching me what I didn't know

before and the more the design thinker

can understand about the potential

solution from the users it's I think

plainly obvious that the product or

service or outcome will improve

yeah what I mean one this group of

students that will be viewing this are

are mainly in the Ukraine and so here

we've brought together Japan and the US

different similar but different and

again with the folks in Ukraine there's

similarities and differences um I know

you've worked in Estonia which is you

know in in the same part of the world

tell us how do you do a mother test if

you will across cult cultures or are

there other tools you would use to

design across

cultures across

culture that interesting I'm glad Jeff

asked you that question yeah yeah I mean

while you're thinking about that the one

thing we've talked about is uh we shared

with the students today was this idea

that in America an idea fails or a

business fails but that doesn't mean

that the person is a failure um whereas

in other cultures that that feeling of

of loss is personal rather than on the

idea so um how do you approach um across

cultures for example I know your

students here on this trip Japanese

students intercepted American students

and had

conversations was it different or at the

end of the day was it very similar to

what they know I see yeah of course

there is a lot of difference and the for

me uh I think if I will Design uh

crosscultural

interview or a test M I will try to

think how we can do that without

language o wow because language is the

of course I think often is the most

higher barrier mhm and also the thing

that student or people think that differ

but uh the point the most the Deep point

the difference is culture and how the

feel how they think and to observe it I

think we don't sometime language help it

but it it doesn't mean that we should

have some language communication right

maybe we can do just a photograph

communication we can do video

communication I think yeah to do such

kind of thing I will try to build such

kind of prototype and test with it cross

culture

that's an incredible thought to yes

and when we I think when anyone works

cross-culturally we have to approach

that with a high degree of humility

there are so let's say I was working

with you in Ukraine there's so much I

don't know about Ukraine about you about

your language your culture I read the

headlines about the war but I'm a very

uninformed person when it comes

understanding your country and your

custom and your needs and so by thinking

I know something that I don't know by

being somewhat hristic about it I'm

losing the capacity to work deeply into

your kind of problem not my impression

of your kind of problem so bringing

humility to this to be um curious uh to

exert the knowled I don't know much I

certainly don't know enough to impose a

solution

cross-culturally I think it's it's

essential that we bring a deep level of

humility and and thirst for learning to

any kind of work I

agree and just to wrap up this short

video we wanted to address the biggest

question you gave us and I think we're

all a little Terri if to answer this but

we'll do our best the question was do

you believe that at some point in time

there will be no need for Innovation as

the life of humans will have achieved

the maximum level of

comfort well there will be no need for

Innovation because humans will have

reached the maximum level of comfort

well the quick answer is no I don't

believe that time will ever come why do

I say

that and I'm looking forward to having

more voices in this but we've evolved as

a species through Innovation Innovation

is not

new um humans have been innovating since

humans gathered together in tribes so

that it has always been our capacity to

think new thoughts to innovate that has

created the different the great advances

of human life uh on Earth it has also

been uh that capacity to innovate or

that drive toward efficiency and profits

that is fueled from Bad Innovations

around greed and power but The

Human Experience is an experience of

making things better of having an

optimistic view of the world that things

can always be improved and if that ever

stops I don't think it will be because

humans have achieved a maximum level of

comfort when humans reach that level uh

it's just another Plateau from which to

start innovating maximum level of

justice of peace

of of Love around the

world it's powerful thought right when

we reach that level of comfort hopefully

we begin to innovate on other human

centered AES Justice

love Professor Ste all right so my

answer also is

no and for that I yeah I have one

experience in the when I go to the

Estonia so I had one student who write a

very beautiful learning report he said

that if

in the 50 years later in the future we

have all things digitalized and

everything is we can do in one button

and it is very comfortable places then

the value will be

uncomfortable the people will try to be

uncomfortable maybe without the

digital so mean that if in the future

you will be in a society in the world

which is comfortable then people will

try will start to seek in a different

value and that value maybe will be

uncomfortable or another Plateau so mean

that and the Innovation will never end

because in each point the human will try

to find some

needs wonderful that's incredibly

inspirational yeah well with that note

uh I agree that we are not done

innovating but I do agree that the video

is

over yeah so on behalf of Clark and

Stephan thank you so much we send our

best and we'll see you

next