Design Thinking Q&A with Clark Kellogg and Stephane Matsushita

The Berkeley Innovation Group
11 Mar 202420:15

Summary

TLDRIn this insightful discussion, design thinking experts Clark Kellogg and Stefan Matsushita join to explore the mindset and process of design thinking, emphasizing the importance of a 'yes and' approach, optimism, and curiosity. They differentiate design thinking from traditional problem-solving methods by its iterative, user-centered process and the focus on finding the problem rather than simply solving it. The conversation also touches on the challenges and strategies of prototyping and testing across cultures, highlighting the need for humility and a continuous learning mindset in innovation.

Takeaways

  • ๐ŸŒŸ The most important element of design thinking mindset is the 'yes and' approach and optimism, which encourages looking for the good in solutions and improving them.
  • ๐Ÿ” Design thinking begins with acknowledging that we don't know the answer, unlike other problem-solving methods that often start with a preconceived notion or hypothesis.
  • ๐Ÿ’ก Curiosity is emphasized as a vital component of design thinking, driving learning and exploration without judgment.
  • ๐Ÿš€ Design thinking involves a quest for knowledge through research, interviews, and understanding user needs, rather than relying on past solutions.
  • ๐Ÿค” The process of design thinking is about living in the gray area, focusing on finding the problem rather than just solving it.
  • ๐ŸŒ When diverging, it's important not to settle for the most obvious answer but to push beyond common sense and explore unconventional ideas.
  • ๐Ÿ”„ Prototyping and testing are about learning and iterating, not just proving a hypothesis right, but understanding its true value and potential for improvement.
  • ๐Ÿ‘ฉโ€๐Ÿ‘ฆ The 'ask your mother' approach to testing is about understanding if the user can relate to and comprehend the solution, but it should be expanded to include a broader range of perspectives.
  • ๐ŸŒ Cross-cultural design thinking requires humility and the recognition that language and cultural differences can be overcome by focusing on shared human experiences and values.
  • ๐ŸŒฑ Innovation is a fundamental part of human evolution and progress, and it will continue as we seek to improve and find new values, even when comfort and stability are achieved.

Q & A

  • What is the most important element of the design thinking mindset?

    -The most important element of the design thinking mindset is the 'yes and' attitude combined with optimism. This mindset encourages looking for the good in solutions and thinking of ways to improve them, even if they may initially seem inadequate.

  • How does Clark Kellogg define the value of curiosity in design thinking?

    -Clark Kellogg emphasizes that curiosity is more important than judgment in design thinking. Curiosity drives all work in the field, fueling the learning process. Without curiosity, there is nothing to learn, but with it, there is everything to discover.

  • How does design thinking differ from other problem-solving methods?

    -Design thinking begins by acknowledging that we do not know the answer. It involves a quest for knowledge through research, interviews, and understanding the problems faced by users. Unlike other methods that may rely on pre-existing solutions, design thinking focuses on learning and adapting to the specific context at hand.

  • What is the key difference between design thinking and traditional problem-solving approaches?

    -The key difference is that design thinking focuses on finding the problem rather than just solving it. It involves living in a gray area, exploring beyond the obvious, and embracing the unknown to uncover deeper insights and innovative solutions.

  • How should one approach diverging when generating ideas in design thinking?

    -When diverging, one should start from common points but then push beyond them to explore strange or curious ideas. The goal is to expand beyond common sense and consider possibilities that may not immediately seem like the 'right' answer.

  • Why can't one just converge on a solution if they already know the answer?

    -Even if you think you know the answer from past experience, it's important to explore other potential solutions. The future may require new approaches, and converging too quickly can eliminate a world of possibilities that could lead to better outcomes.

  • What is the purpose of prototyping and testing in the design thinking process?

    -Prototyping and testing help validate hypotheses and potential solutions by learning from the process. It's about understanding whether an idea works and identifying areas for improvement, rather than just proving the solution to be perfect.

  • How can the 'ask your mother' approach be useful in testing hypotheses?

    -The 'ask your mother' approach is a way to quickly gauge the understandability and appeal of a solution with someone who may represent the target user. However, it's important to diversify testing to include actual potential users for more accurate feedback.

  • What are some challenges of conducting design thinking across cultures?

    -Cross-cultural design thinking requires overcoming language barriers and understanding cultural differences in thought processes and feelings. It involves humility, a willingness to learn, and the ability to observe and adapt to the nuances of different cultures.

  • How can one approach prototyping and testing across cultures?

    -Approaching prototyping across cultures involves using methods that transcend language barriers, such as visual or video communication. The goal is to build prototypes that can be tested without relying heavily on verbal explanations.

  • Will there ever be a point when innovation is no longer needed because humans have reached the maximum level of comfort?

    -The panelists do not believe that such a point will come. Innovation is a fundamental part of human evolution and progress. Even when a certain level of comfort is achieved, humans will continue to seek new values and challenges, driving further innovation.

Outlines

00:00

๐Ÿค Introduction and the Design Thinking Mindset

The video begins with a greeting and an introduction to the topic of design thinking. The speaker introduces colleagues Clark Kellogg and Stefan Matsushita, both experts in design thinking. They discuss the most important element of the design thinking mindset, emphasizing the 'yes and' mentality and optimism. The speakers agree that curiosity is more important than judgment and that even seemingly inadequate solutions should be explored for potential value. They also differentiate design thinking from other problem-solving methods by highlighting the importance of starting without preconceived answers and engaging in research and user interaction to inform the process.

05:00

๐ŸŒŸ Divergence and the Importance of Expanding Ideas

The conversation shifts to the process of design thinking, with a focus on divergence. The speakers discuss the common misconception that the most frequently mentioned ideas are the best to pursue. They emphasize the need to push beyond comfort zones and explore new, unheard ideas. The speakers address the concern of whether one can skip the process if they already know the answer, arguing that design thinking encourages exploring multiple solutions and directions, not just the familiar or comfortable ones.

10:04

๐Ÿ“ Prototyping and Testing Hypotheses

The speakers delve into the aspects of prototyping and testing within design thinking. They clarify the difference between testing and proving a hypothesis, stressing that the goal is to learn through testing rather than to conclusively prove an idea. The importance of prototyping in education is highlighted, with examples from Clark's experience at Hokkaido University. The speakers discuss the value of learning by doing and the iterative nature of prototyping. They also touch on the 'ask your mother' approach to testing and the need for diverse testing methods to cater to different user perspectives.

15:08

๐ŸŒ Cross-Cultural Design and Humility in Innovation

The panel discusses the challenges and strategies of applying design thinking across cultures. They share insights on conducting 'mother tests' and the importance of understanding and respecting cultural differences. The speakers emphasize the need for humility when working in unfamiliar cultural contexts, advocating for non-verbal communication methods and observation to bridge language barriers. They also reflect on the universal human desire for improvement and the endless potential for innovation, regardless of cultural boundaries.

20:09

๐Ÿš€ The Future of Innovation

In the final segment, the speakers address the question of whether there will ever be a point when innovation is no longer necessary because humans have reached the maximum level of comfort. They unanimously agree that innovation is an inherent part of human progress and will continue indefinitely. They argue that even when a certain level of comfort is achieved, humans will seek new values and challenges, ensuring that the pursuit of innovation never ends. The video concludes on an inspirational note about the human capacity for continuous improvement and the power of optimism in driving innovation.

Mindmap

Keywords

๐Ÿ’กDesign Thinking

Design Thinking is a problem-solving approach that encourages empathy, experimentation, and iterative learning. It is a process that focuses on understanding the needs of the users and involves five stages: empathize, define, ideate, prototype, and test. In the video, the speakers discuss the importance of adopting a design thinking mindset, which involves optimism and curiosity, to innovate and improve solutions. They emphasize that design thinking is distinct from traditional problem-solving methods because it begins without preconceived answers and involves a deep understanding of the problem through research and user interaction.

๐Ÿ’กMindset

In the context of the video, mindset refers to the mental attitude or inclination towards certain ways of thinking, especially in relation to problem-solving and innovation. The speakers emphasize the importance of having a 'yes and' mindset, which involves optimism and the willingness to build upon ideas, rather than a negative or judgmental approach. This mindset is crucial for design thinking as it fosters an environment where ideas can be freely explored and improved upon.

๐Ÿ’กCuriosity

Curiosity, as discussed in the video, is the desire to learn or know more about something. It is a key element of the design thinking mindset because it drives the exploration of possibilities and the pursuit of understanding. Curiosity encourages individuals to ask questions, seek answers, and learn from the process, which is essential for innovation and problem-solving.

๐Ÿ’กOptimization

Optimization refers to the process of making something as fully perfect, effective, or functional as possible. In the context of the video, it is related to the iterative process of design thinking where prototypes are tested and improved upon. The goal is to enhance the value, efficiency, and effectiveness of a solution or product by continuously refining it based on feedback and learning.

๐Ÿ’กPrototyping

Prototyping in the video refers to the creation of a preliminary model or version of a product or idea. It is a crucial step in the design thinking process that allows for testing and evaluation before finalizing the solution. Prototyping enables individuals to gain insights from users, identify potential issues, and make necessary improvements.

๐Ÿ’กTesting

Testing in the context of the video is the act of evaluating a hypothesis or prototype to see how it performs in real-world conditions. It is a critical part of the design thinking process that involves gathering data and feedback to learn from and improve the proposed solution. Testing is not about proving the solution is right but about understanding its true value and potential for improvement.

๐Ÿ’กInnovation

Innovation is the process of introducing new ideas, methods, or products to improve or make changes. It is central to the video's theme, as the speakers discuss the importance of continuous innovation driven by a mindset of optimism and curiosity. Innovation is seen as a fundamental human trait that has led to progress and is expected to continue indefinitely, as humans strive for betterment in various aspects of life.

๐Ÿ’กCross-Cultural

Cross-cultural refers to the interaction or understanding between different cultures. In the video, this concept is important when discussing design thinking and innovation, as it involves adapting and applying these principles across diverse cultural contexts. The speakers mention the need for humility and a thirst for learning when working cross-culturally, emphasizing the importance of understanding and respecting cultural differences.

๐Ÿ’กHypothesis

A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon, made as a starting point for further investigation. In the context of the video, it relates to the initial ideas or potential solutions in the design thinking process. Hypotheses are tested and refined through prototyping and user feedback, allowing for the development of more effective and user-centered solutions.

๐Ÿ’กUser-Centered

User-centered design is an approach to product or service development that focuses on the needs, preferences, and experiences of the end-users. It is a core principle in design thinking, emphasizing empathy and understanding of the users to create solutions that truly meet their requirements. The video highlights the importance of engaging with users throughout the design process to ensure that the final product or solution is relevant and valuable to them.

๐Ÿ’กIterative

Iterative refers to a process of repetition or cycling through stages, often with the goal of refinement and improvement. In the context of the video, it is used to describe the design thinking process, where ideas and prototypes are continually revised based on feedback and learning. The iterative nature of design thinking allows for the exploration of multiple possibilities and the enhancement of solutions over time.

Highlights

Introduction of design thinking experts Clark Kellogg and Stefan Matsushita, who join the discussion to address questions on design thinking.

The importance of a 'yes and' mindset in design thinking, emphasizing optimism and looking for the good in solutions.

The value of curiosity over judgment in the design thinking process, as curiosity drives learning and exploration.

Design thinking's distinction from other problem-solving methods, starting with not knowing the answer and seeking knowledge through research and user interaction.

The scientific method's similarity to design thinking, with the approach of forming a hypothesis and learning from it rather than simply proving or disproving it.

The critical aspect of design thinking is finding the problem rather than just solving it, using hypotheses to guide the discovery process.

The divergence process in design thinking involves moving beyond common sense and exploring strange or curious ideas.

The discussion on whether the most common response from users is necessarily the right solution to pursue.

The concept of living in the gray area and not just proving or disproving a hypothesis, but understanding its true value.

The importance of prototyping and testing in the design thinking process, allowing for learning and improvement through hands-on experience.

The 'ask your mother' approach to testing hypotheses, and the need for diverse testing methods to cater to different user perspectives.

The challenges and strategies of conducting mother tests across cultures, emphasizing the need for humility and learning from the user's perspective.

The role of innovation in human evolution and the belief that the need for innovation will never cease, as humans continually strive for improvement.

The idea that even in a future where everything is digitalized and comfortable, people will seek new values and experiences, ensuring continuous innovation.

The conclusion that innovation is a fundamental part of the human experience and will persist as we seek new plateaus of comfort, justice, and love.

Transcripts

play00:06

good morning

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everyone uh I'm we are responding to

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some of the questions that you posted in

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the chat um and I decided to bring some

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friends along for the journey um I'd

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like to first introduce my colleague

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Clark Kellogg who also teaches here at

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UC Berkeley's High School of Business um

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and Stefan Matsushita who's teaches at

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to University in Japan and both design

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thinking experts and I figure we would

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bring this to your class um and answer

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some of your questions so um I will let

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the three of us will answer but um

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I we want to talk about the mindset of

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design thinking and so what is the most

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important element of design thinking

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mindset okay uh I would like to say that

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it would be the yes and mindset with the

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optimism because uh I think the most

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important thing in the design thinking

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is to think a better way to any kind of

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result or Sol uh solution or something

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so we should think that even it is seem

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to be a not so good uh solution idea we

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need to find what would be a good thing

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in this solution of idea and how we can

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prove it much better I think that is the

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most important mindset is I thinking yes

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and you Clark most important mindset

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well I agree with Stefan's idea and I

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would add to it yes and the value of

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curiosity as being much more important

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than judgment so curiosity drives all of

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our work without it we learn nothing and

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with it we have everything to learn

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curiosity is the fuel and with that

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Clark what would you say um how does

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design thinking differ from other

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problem solving methods yes the

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principal difference Jeff I would say is

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that with design thinking We Begin by

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saying we don't know the answer we don't

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know anything about this but we're going

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to find out and so begins our quest for

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knowledge we do research we do

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interviews we call it desk research

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where we learn all about the problems

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faed and then we talk to the users the

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people who will benefit from the work we

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do and once that is done we inform all

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of the succeeding steps with u with what

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we learned now other processes are

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hypothesis do them where we think let's

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see I see what that problem is I know

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another time it was solved that way so

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we'll just take the old solution and

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implement it with this new problem even

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if we don't know exactly all of the

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components yeah good point and I think

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that it's different because in design

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thinking um it's like the scientific

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method in that you come with a

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hypothesis but um instead of just trying

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to prove or disprove that hypothesis we

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take a different approach so how do you

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approach it Stefan not just prove or

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disprove but live in this gray area okay

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I think the most deep point is that not

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to think how to solve the problem but to

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how to find the problem so therefore we

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put some Hypes to help us to find the

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problem and how to act to find the

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problem so that I think that would be

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the most important difference and the

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key point for the design thinking

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compared to the traditional way

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nice that's our thoughts on the mindset

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now shifting to the process of design

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thinking um one uh thing Stephen that

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comes up very often is um when we are

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diverging isn't it easier to

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just think what has the most responses

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or what did we hear the most in our

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interview just because something is the

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largest quantity of responses does that

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mean that that is what we should do is

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that the right answer I would say no I

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think you can start from that point

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right but you should go out to that

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point so me that first you can begin

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from that point that by doing yes and or

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reflame a little bit you you should try

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to go out of this common sense and go a

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little bit go to the maybe strange ideas

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or impressive ideas curious ideas I

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think that is a the way that the

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direction that you should go in the

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diverse Point yeah good point I I agree

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that it's um just

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because it's the most com it's the most

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obvious answer to your users today does

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not mean that it is pushing the limits

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of desirability feasibility viability

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and have potential for future success

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and one of the important elements of

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that comment and that concept is the

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notion of living in our comfort zone

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versus pushing ourselves outside of it

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to try those new things those unheard

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neverbe heard ideas and often times we

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reject the things we've never thought

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about or heard about because we say well

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if it was a good idea someone else would

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have done it by now and the fact is that

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that is a fallacy it's not necessarily

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true it's that no one else has actually

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had the courage to investigate those

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NE so Stephan that lead leads me to the

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next question of if I already know the

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answer why can't I just

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converge you meant that if you know the

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answer I already know the answer yeah I

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already know I I've been in this job for

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10 years I know how this happens why

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can't I just converge if I already know

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the answer so I think it is just you

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know one answer mhm but you don't know

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the

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other so it mean that you just know one

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thing that maybe work before but uh to

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go in the future you should know much

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more answers and for that you should con

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you should do a conver in maybe in

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different direction you should push your

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convers direction maybe to the another

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way maybe in the opposite

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dire maybe the opposite direction but

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that's scary right Clark to say well the

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design thinking process is taking me in

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an opposite direction yes how do we

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address that

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well we address it through curiosity and

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not judgment the fact that it's quote

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opposite does that make it bad no it

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makes it Opposite well opposite is a

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judgment that we're making so that if we

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apply those kinds of uh Frameworks

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opposite or uh it's never been done

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before or we've done it this way in the

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past and it worked those are all ways of

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not really investigating the problem and

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as Stefan said the question is the most

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important piece of it so when we

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shortcut the way that Jeff described it

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we eliminate a whole world of

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possibilities is is it is it more work

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sure is it less profitable if you're

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Consulting yes is it a better solution

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no no

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no let's move on to prototyping and

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testing so we talked about the mindset

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the process and now we want to ask about

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prototyping and testing so some of the

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questions that came in um is again Clark

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this is a broad question but you might

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have an opinion is how do we test or

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prove a hypothesis it's interesting the

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student use the word test and prove and

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I think they're

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different what's your opinion well

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testing a hypothesis or a potential

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solution is a process of

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learning we try something we see what

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happens we're not in design thinking

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invested in a yes answer we're invested

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in what is true about that solution or

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the testing of a hypothesis so that a

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test and prove is a little different

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testing is learning proving is coming to

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conclusion that the answer is right and

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both are legitimate we can prove things

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but we only prove it by testing and

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improving and uh and using and that's

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how we learn if something is a good

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answer good solution for yeah you do a

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lot of prototyping in your class at to

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Hoku University um how do you feel that

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that helps the students as they're

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testing hypothesis well the I think for

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the student they can understand by

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testing hypothesis making prototype and

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test with the user then

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they they can at first can uh know

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whether their idea work or not so and

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they can find what should be improve as

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PL in so and uh it is also important to

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iterate the prototypes and uh by doing

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that they can understand that testing

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hypothesis doesn't mean that make a

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perfect one just some just make it some

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make something can be test M and it

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it helps student to do something and

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learn from them learn from doing

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learning learn by doing is so important

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to learn by doing and we can talk all

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day about an idea but if we don't build

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it we will never truly know Clark one

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form of prototyping or hypothesis

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testing if you will um is the ask your

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mother type of approach um and and if

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you're you know would your mother like

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it or could your mother understand this

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Etc um is that an a good approach are

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there other approaches how do you go

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about that it's a good approach and

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there are other

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approaches totally right yeah I mean my

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mom knows some things but right well our

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our moms know some things uh our fathers

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know some things our children know some

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things and we all know some things um

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and the potential user knows some things

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yes they do and that's the voice to

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trust the most now sometimes one's mom

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is the user father right but it is in

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the not so much the voice of what has

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what you've heard of and trusted in the

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past but the voice of the user that

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you're working with in the present and

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the difference between imagining

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something and experiencing something is

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a world of difference imagining is I can

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describe a solution to you and how

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beautifully it might

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work um experiencing it is you testing

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it giving a response to it and feedback

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therefore teaching me what I didn't know

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before and the more the design thinker

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can understand about the potential

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solution from the users it's I think

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plainly obvious that the product or

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service or outcome will improve

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yeah what I mean one this group of

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students that will be viewing this are

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are mainly in the Ukraine and so here

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we've brought together Japan and the US

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different similar but different and

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again with the folks in Ukraine there's

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similarities and differences um I know

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you've worked in Estonia which is you

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know in in the same part of the world

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tell us how do you do a mother test if

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you will across cult cultures or are

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there other tools you would use to

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design across

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cultures across

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culture that interesting I'm glad Jeff

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asked you that question yeah yeah I mean

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while you're thinking about that the one

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thing we've talked about is uh we shared

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with the students today was this idea

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that in America an idea fails or a

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business fails but that doesn't mean

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that the person is a failure um whereas

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in other cultures that that feeling of

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of loss is personal rather than on the

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idea so um how do you approach um across

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cultures for example I know your

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students here on this trip Japanese

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students intercepted American students

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and had

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conversations was it different or at the

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end of the day was it very similar to

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what they know I see yeah of course

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there is a lot of difference and the for

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me uh I think if I will Design uh

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crosscultural

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interview or a test M I will try to

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think how we can do that without

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language o wow because language is the

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of course I think often is the most

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higher barrier mhm and also the thing

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that student or people think that differ

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but uh the point the most the Deep point

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the difference is culture and how the

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feel how they think and to observe it I

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think we don't sometime language help it

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but it it doesn't mean that we should

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have some language communication right

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maybe we can do just a photograph

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communication we can do video

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communication I think yeah to do such

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kind of thing I will try to build such

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kind of prototype and test with it cross

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culture

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that's an incredible thought to yes

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and when we I think when anyone works

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cross-culturally we have to approach

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that with a high degree of humility

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there are so let's say I was working

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with you in Ukraine there's so much I

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don't know about Ukraine about you about

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your language your culture I read the

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headlines about the war but I'm a very

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uninformed person when it comes

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understanding your country and your

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custom and your needs and so by thinking

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I know something that I don't know by

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being somewhat hristic about it I'm

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losing the capacity to work deeply into

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your kind of problem not my impression

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of your kind of problem so bringing

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humility to this to be um curious uh to

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exert the knowled I don't know much I

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certainly don't know enough to impose a

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solution

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cross-culturally I think it's it's

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essential that we bring a deep level of

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humility and and thirst for learning to

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any kind of work I

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agree and just to wrap up this short

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video we wanted to address the biggest

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question you gave us and I think we're

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all a little Terri if to answer this but

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we'll do our best the question was do

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you believe that at some point in time

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there will be no need for Innovation as

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the life of humans will have achieved

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the maximum level of

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comfort well there will be no need for

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Innovation because humans will have

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reached the maximum level of comfort

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well the quick answer is no I don't

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believe that time will ever come why do

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I say

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that and I'm looking forward to having

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more voices in this but we've evolved as

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a species through Innovation Innovation

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is not

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new um humans have been innovating since

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humans gathered together in tribes so

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that it has always been our capacity to

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think new thoughts to innovate that has

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created the different the great advances

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of human life uh on Earth it has also

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been uh that capacity to innovate or

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that drive toward efficiency and profits

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that is fueled from Bad Innovations

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around greed and power but The

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Human Experience is an experience of

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making things better of having an

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optimistic view of the world that things

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can always be improved and if that ever

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stops I don't think it will be because

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humans have achieved a maximum level of

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comfort when humans reach that level uh

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it's just another Plateau from which to

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start innovating maximum level of

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justice of peace

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of of Love around the

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world it's powerful thought right when

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we reach that level of comfort hopefully

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we begin to innovate on other human

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centered AES Justice

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love Professor Ste all right so my

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answer also is

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no and for that I yeah I have one

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experience in the when I go to the

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Estonia so I had one student who write a

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very beautiful learning report he said

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that if

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in the 50 years later in the future we

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have all things digitalized and

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everything is we can do in one button

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and it is very comfortable places then

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the value will be

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uncomfortable the people will try to be

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uncomfortable maybe without the

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digital so mean that if in the future

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you will be in a society in the world

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which is comfortable then people will

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try will start to seek in a different

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value and that value maybe will be

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uncomfortable or another Plateau so mean

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that and the Innovation will never end

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because in each point the human will try

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to find some

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needs wonderful that's incredibly

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inspirational yeah well with that note

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uh I agree that we are not done

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innovating but I do agree that the video

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is

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over yeah so on behalf of Clark and

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Stephan thank you so much we send our

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best and we'll see you

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next

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Related Tags
DesignThinkingMindsetInnovationCuriosityProblemSolvingCrossCulturalEducationUCBerkeleyJapanInterviewsPrototypingTestingHypothesesFutureOfInnovation