Dr Gabor Mate and Daniel Mate on genocide in Gaza | The Stream

Summary

In this episode of The Stream, Anelise Boures discusses the psychological toll of witnessing ongoing violence, focusing on the conflict in Gaza. Joined by Holocaust survivor Dr. Gabor Maté and his son, composer Daniel Maté, they reflect on the horrors of the war, the trauma inflicted on Palestinians, and how Jewish values can inform opposition to oppression. The conversation also touches on the conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, the weaponization of trauma, and what it would take to achieve peace and justice for Palestine.

Takeaways

• 🧠 The human brain, despite its immense capability, struggles to fully comprehend the scale and constant nature of modern violence, particularly that seen in conflicts like Gaza.
• 🇵🇸 Dr. Gabor Mate emphasizes the importance of supporting Palestinian rights as part of a broader commitment to human rights and justice for all, not as a matter of taking sides.
• 😢 Daniel Mate reflects on the horror and emotional toll of witnessing the ongoing violence in Gaza, discussing the profound sadness, anger, and grief caused by the situation.
• ⚖️ Dr. Gabor Mate argues that trauma from events like the Holocaust should not be used to justify further violence or the trauma inflicted on other groups, such as Palestinians.
• 🧬 Daniel Mate discusses the complex legacy of trauma and moral principles passed down through his family, and how these shaped his anti-Zionist views and skepticism toward mainstream Jewish narratives about Israel.
• 🛑 Both Dr. Mate and Daniel highlight the dangerous conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, stating that criticism of Israel should not be equated with an attack on all Jews.
• 👶 Dr. Mate expresses deep concern over the long-term psychological and physical trauma faced by Palestinian children due to the ongoing violence, drawing on past studies that already showed alarming levels of trauma.
• 🕊️ Daniel discusses how his Jewish values, including compassion (Rahim), irony, and justice (Tzedek), inform his activism against oppression and the Israeli occupation.
• 🏚️ Dr. Mate describes his emotional experience visiting Gaza and the West Bank, witnessing firsthand the suffering of Palestinians, and how this shaped his views on the Zionist project and its impact.
• ✊ Both guests stress the need for systemic changes, including ending the occupation and apartheid policies, for peace to be possible and for collective healing to begin, not only for Palestinians but for Israelis as well.

Q & A

What is the main focus of the discussion in the episode of *The Stream*?

The main focus of the episode is addressing the violence in Gaza and the occupied territories, particularly the impact on humanity, the role of solidarity, and the importance of supporting Palestinian rights.

Why does Dr. Gabor Maté believe it is important to support Palestinian rights?

Dr. Gabor Maté believes it is important to support Palestinian rights because it is not about taking sides, but about caring for justice, truth, and the well-being of all people, including Jews. He argues that the situation in Palestine represents a focal point for what is troubling humanity.

How does Daniel Maté explain his decision to speak out on the issue?

Daniel Maté explains that speaking out is essential for his sanity, as witnessing the horrors in Gaza is deeply troubling. He mentions that unless someone is captured by an ideology that blinds them to Palestinian suffering, it is hard not to feel horror, anger, grief, and frustration.

How does Dr. Gabor Maté reconcile his Jewish heritage and trauma with his stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

Dr. Gabor Maté acknowledges his traumatic history as a Holocaust survivor but rejects using past Jewish trauma to justify the suffering of others, including Palestinians. He believes trauma does not justify further harm and argues that healing does not come from causing pain to others.

Did Daniel Maté inherit trauma from his father’s experiences, and how did it influence his views?

Daniel Maté acknowledges inheriting trauma and a strong moral principle from his family’s history. He also credits growing up with a father who opposed occupation, helping him develop a nuanced view that goes beyond the Zionist narrative and led him to support Palestinian rights.

What is Daniel Maté’s view on the conflation of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism?

Daniel Maté rejects the conflation of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, explaining that it stems from equating Zionism with Judaism. He argues that criticizing Israel’s policies does not equate to attacking Jews and emphasizes that this conflation is an anti-Semitic premise in itself.

What impact does Dr. Gabor Maté believe the current violence will have on Palestinian children?

Dr. Gabor Maté predicts that Palestinian children will face devastating long-term effects from the trauma, including mental health issues, physical harm, and behavioral problems. He notes that even before the current violence, Palestinian children were among the most traumatized in the world.

What Jewish values have influenced Daniel Maté’s critique of Zionism?

Daniel Maté cites values such as compassion (Rahim), a tradition of irony and skepticism, and a commitment to justice (tzedek) as key Jewish principles that have informed his ability to critique Zionism and align himself with broader social justice causes.

What does Daniel Maté envision as a solution for a free Palestine?

Daniel Maté envisions a society from the river to the sea where Jews and Palestinians live with equal rights, free from racism and supremacy. He believes that Israel’s apartheid policies must end, and reconciliation similar to South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation process is necessary.

What does Dr. Gabor Maté believe is necessary for healing to begin after the violence ends?

Dr. Gabor Maté believes that for healing to begin, the occupation, apartheid policies, and systemic racism must end. Only when people no longer feel threatened can collective and individual healing take place. He emphasizes that peace and justice are prerequisites for healing.

Outlines

00:00

🧠 Understanding Our Struggle with Modern Violence

Anelise Boures opens the episode by highlighting the complexity of the human brain, which possesses 86 billion cells capable of rapid information transmission. Despite this, humanity struggles to comprehend the ongoing violence, much of it broadcasted live over the past 10 months. The episode seeks to explore the emotional toll of witnessing such horrors and how individuals can stand in solidarity in a deeply divided world. The show features guests Dr. Gabor Maté, a Holocaust survivor, and his son Daniel Maté, a musical theater composer, who will address these issues and share their perspectives on justice, trauma, and human rights, with a particular focus on Palestine.

05:01

⚖️ The Importance of Supporting Palestinian Rights

Dr. Gabor Maté explains why supporting Palestine is not about choosing sides but about upholding justice and human rights for all people, including Jews. He emphasizes that Palestine is a focal point for global suffering and calls for concern for humanity as a whole. Daniel Maté shares that speaking out on this issue is a matter of maintaining his sanity, as he grapples with the horror and grief from the violence in Gaza, largely perpetrated by Israel. Both agree that ignoring these atrocities while focusing solely on Jewish suffering reflects a failure to recognize the full scope of the tragedy.

10:02

💔 Trauma and the Misuse of Historical Pain

Gabor Maté reflects on how his experience as a Holocaust survivor shaped his views. He emphasizes that one trauma cannot be used to justify the infliction of another, stating that his survival does not validate the suffering of Palestinians. Daniel Maté discusses inheriting trauma from his father and how a combination of that trauma and moral principles led him to question Zionist narratives. Raised with a balance of Zionist and anti-occupation influences, Daniel eventually rejected the mainstream Jewish narrative that Zionism is the culmination of Jewish suffering and redemption.

15:07

💭 Conflating Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism

Daniel Maté addresses the conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, pointing out that Zionist propaganda equates criticism of Israel with hatred of Jews. He explains that this premise wrongly assumes Jews' identity is solely tied to the state of Israel, a belief rooted in anti-Semitic notions. Daniel rejects the idea that opposing Israel's apartheid system is anti-Semitic, noting that Zionism misrepresents Jewishness and endangers Jews worldwide. He insists that supporting Palestinian rights is not an attack on Jews but a stand for universal justice.

20:10

🚶‍♂️ The Trauma of Displacement and War

Gabor Maté reflects on the ongoing displacement of Palestinians, which he sees as a continuation of the Zionist project that has lasted over a century. He draws parallels between the forced evacuations of Palestinians and the historical experiences of Jews fleeing persecution. Maté recalls his visits to Gaza and the West Bank, where he witnessed immense suffering and was moved to tears. He urges people to visit these areas to understand the reality on the ground, as he believes many still do not fully grasp the extent of Palestinian suffering.

🏞️ Envisioning a Free Palestine

Daniel Maté discusses his vision for a free Palestine, though he admits he does not have a concrete political solution. He imagines a future where Palestinians and Jews live as equals in an egalitarian society, with one person, one vote. This vision requires dismantling Israel's apartheid system, ending the occupation and siege, and promoting truth and reconciliation similar to South Africa. He hopes for a peaceful resolution, though he fears that the current trajectory may lead to further violence before freedom can be achieved.

🛠️ Healing After War

Gabor Maté emphasizes that healing for both Palestinians and Israelis cannot begin without peace. The current siege mentality in Israel, where people feel perpetually under threat, prevents any possibility of healing. He asserts that ending the occupation, apartheid, and racism is necessary to create conditions where healing can happen. Once these oppressive systems are dismantled, both individual and collective healing can take place, but not before the sense of threat is removed.

Keywords

💡Trauma

Trauma refers to deeply distressing or disturbing experiences, often leading to long-lasting psychological impact. In the video, trauma is a central theme, discussed in the context of both the Holocaust and the current violence in Gaza. Gabor Maté speaks about how trauma cannot justify the infliction of harm on others, particularly highlighting how the trauma experienced by Jews in the Holocaust does not excuse the suffering of Palestinians.

💡Gaza

Gaza is a Palestinian territory that has been the focal point of conflict and violence, especially in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In the video, both Gabor and Daniel Maté reflect on the ongoing violence in Gaza, emphasizing the trauma inflicted on its population, particularly children, and condemning the military actions that have worsened the humanitarian situation.

💡Zionism

Zionism is a nationalist movement that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel. Daniel Maté critiques Zionism in the video, distinguishing between Zionism and Judaism, and condemning the conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. He argues that Zionist ideology has contributed to the oppression of Palestinians.

💡Anti-Semitism

Anti-Semitism refers to hostility or prejudice against Jews. In the video, the Matés address the conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, arguing that criticizing the actions of the Israeli state does not equate to hatred of Jews. Daniel Maté contends that this conflation is often used to silence critics of Israeli policies towards Palestinians.

💡Palestinian Rights

Palestinian rights refer to the political, human, and civil rights of Palestinians, particularly in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Gabor Maté emphasizes that supporting Palestinian rights is an issue of human rights, and argues that the oppression of Palestinians must be addressed in order to achieve justice and peace.

💡Holocaust

The Holocaust was the genocide of six million Jews by Nazi Germany during World War II. Gabor Maté, a Holocaust survivor, reflects on his personal experiences and stresses that the trauma of the Holocaust should not be used to justify the suffering of others, such as the Palestinian people.

💡Justice

Justice refers to fairness and moral rightness. In the video, both Gabor and Daniel Maté emphasize the importance of justice in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Gabor argues that supporting Palestinian rights is a matter of justice for all people, while Daniel stresses the need for equal rights and an end to oppression.

💡Occupation

Occupation refers to the control of one nation by another. In the video, Daniel Maté speaks about the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, condemning the military and political control that has deprived Palestinians of their rights and subjected them to violence and displacement.

💡Apartheid

Apartheid originally referred to the system of institutionalized racial segregation in South Africa. In the video, Daniel Maté describes Israel's policies toward Palestinians as an apartheid system, where Palestinians are subjected to discriminatory laws and practices. He calls for the dismantling of this system in order to achieve equality and peace.

💡Human Rights

Human rights are the basic rights and freedoms to which all individuals are entitled. In the video, the Matés focus on the violation of Palestinian human rights, condemning the violence and displacement occurring in Gaza. Gabor Maté argues that advocating for Palestinian rights is a stand for human rights globally, emphasizing that the suffering of any people diminishes humanity as a whole.

Highlights

The introduction highlights the paradox of human cognitive capacity versus the inability to fully comprehend ongoing violence and suffering.

Dr. Gabor Mate emphasizes that supporting Palestinian rights is not about taking sides but advocating for human rights universally.

Daniel Mate mentions how the violence in Gaza has escalated exponentially over the past 10 months, calling into question the sanity of those who witness it without responding.

Dr. Gabor Mate rejects the idea of using past Jewish trauma, including the Holocaust, to justify the harm inflicted on Palestinian children, stressing that trauma does not justify more trauma.

Daniel Mate discusses the inheritance of both trauma and strong moral activism from his family, which shaped his views on Zionism and oppression.

Daniel criticizes the conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, calling it a deliberate tactic to silence criticism of Israeli policies.

Gabor Mate highlights the severe trauma Palestinian children are experiencing, which will have lifelong consequences for their mental and physical health.

Daniel Mate points out how irony and humor, derived from Jewish culture, have helped him critique Israeli propaganda and Zionist ideologies.

Dr. Gabor Mate recalls his visits to Gaza and the West Bank, describing his emotional response to the suffering he witnessed, likening it to historical Jewish displacement.

Both Mate and his son argue that Israel’s apartheid regime needs to be dismantled in order for Palestinians to achieve freedom and equality.

Dr. Gabor Mate discusses how the ongoing trauma within Israeli society, combined with the occupation, prevents peace and healing from being achieved on both sides.

Daniel Mate emphasizes that the current system in Israel is apartheid-like, granting privileges to Jews while denying basic rights to Palestinians, which perpetuates conflict.

The discussion explores how Jewish values of compassion and justice can inform a more critical understanding of Zionism and its impact on Palestinians.

Dr. Gabor Mate stresses that healing from the trauma inflicted by the conflict is impossible without first establishing peace and equality.

Daniel highlights that in the future, Palestine should be free from racism, oppression, and apartheid, envisioning a society where Jews and Palestinians live with equal rights.

Transcripts

each one of us has roughly 86 billion

brain cells capable of transmitting

information in fractions of a

millisecond and yet we're all struggling

to comprehend the violence perpetrated

nonstop and on live stream for the past

10 months I'm anelise boures and on this

episode of The Stream we ask what it is

that we feel in the face of such horror

and how to stand in solidarity in a

world more divided than never

and to help us answer those questions

and more we have two very special guests

joining us today physician and Holocaust

Survivor Dr Gabor mate and musical

theater composer Lyricist and Dr Gabor

mate's son Daniel mate thank you both so

much for joining us here on the stream

today I would like to first ask you um

you have been very vocal about your

support for Palestine throughout the

years why is it important to do that

right now despite the backlash from the

Jewish Community especially and

obviously in view of what's been

happening in Gaza and in occupied

territories Gabor can I get you to go

first it's important if you care about

Justice it's important if you care about

truth if it's important if you care

about the emotional spiritual physical

well being of all people around the

world including the Jewish people so

it's not a question of taking sides it's

a question of being concerned with the

fate of humanity and Palestine right now

is a focal point it's

a it's a it's a

focus for all that is troubling and

threatening Humanity so in supporting

Palestinian rights one is supporting

human rights for everybody around the

world

Daniel what is your take why is it

important for you to speak

up I'm not sure I can do better or even

improve on um my dad's answer there I

can speak for myself why it's important

to speak up it's a matter of my own

sanity um

the horrors that have been unfolding in

Gaza and or I should say sort of

exploding in Gaza because uh since

October 7th and I say that because those

Horrors have existed there um and been

perpetrated there uh primarily by Israel

for a long time uh they've just uh

accelerated and Amplified um

exponentially in the last uh 10 months

and I can't believe I'm using the number

10 to describe the number of months this

has been going on but to see them is to

um unless you're captured I think think

by an ideology that numbs you to the

pain of the Palestinian people and that

compels you to see only Jewish suffering

and only a particular version of Jewish

suffering then to look what's happening

in the face is to feel a deep

revulsion um

horror perhaps anger deep grief and

sadness but also I think in the face of

the propaganda that has been Unleashed

by Israel and its um enabler the United

States and the Western media in general

there's a reaction that I've had and

that many people I know have had which

is a kind of am I going crazy feeling

and in speaking out about it in naming

what we're seeing I think we're keeping

ourselves um as well as we can and I

think that's

important I um would like to ask Gabor

about Jewish suffering I mean you are a

holocaust Survivor you went through that

horrific chapter in our history um you

lost loved ones and yet you don't use it

to justify what's currently happening

like many other people actually do I

would like to ask you why you think that

is did you do a lot of work in terms of

identifying that pain and trying to heal

that

trauma as a physician and a Healer I

worked with trauma a

lot and many people individually and

collect L have been traumatized in this

world but you don't use one trauma to

justify another

trauma you don't use one trauma to make

it okay that other people should be

traumatized so yes as an infant I almost

lost my life uh during the Holocaust and

my grandparents died in aitz but that in

no way justifies the death of a single

Palestinian child in Gaza or anywhere

else so you simply do not

use somebody's

trauma to

um make it acceptable that somebody sh

else should be hurt and

furthermore the the Jewish trauma that

is occurred historically and

specifically during the Holocaust is not

answered is not solved is not salved is

not healed by traumatizing another

people Daniel in fact it makes worse in

fact it makes it worse um Daniel would

you say you I don't know inherited some

of that trauma and would you say that at

least in part of your life that shaped

your views shaped your opinions about

the world and how and when did that

shift happened how did you come to see

things the way you see them

now well I inherited a lot and I

inherited a complicated uh cocktail I

would say of uh perspectives

um some informed by trauma some informed

by Deep moral principle and a very

strong activist tradition in my family

that we all take a lot of pride in um

both my father and his brothers and it's

just an ethic in the mate family that uh

we're here to do our

small but to the maximum of our ability

uh our part to to make the world less

conducive to the sorts of Horrors that

nearly wiped out our bloodline um and

nearly resulted in me not

existing um but in terms of how I see

the situation um although I went to a

Zionist summer camp as a kid I also had

an anti I won't say anti-zionist but I

will say um

anti-occupation anti-oppression of the

Palestinians father to counterbalance

that so I never fully bought in to the

narrative that the mainstream Jewish

Community was trying to to me which was

that the history of the Jewish people is

one of suffering and anti-Semitism

culminating in the Redemption of the

creation of the Zionist state of Israel

it never felt right to me and so it

didn't take too much it took reading

Scholars like Noom Chomsky Brave Israeli

journalists like gon Levy and amas and

of course Palestinian voices like Rashid

khidi and and many many others to show

me that there's just a a whole set of

facts that if you grow up in the Zionist

circles you will not know them because

you won't want to know them but if you

know them you can't unknow them and it

it changes

everything um we have reached out to our

community and asked if they wanted to

ask you about the state of the world

these days and we received a bunch of

questions for you guys this is what eang

shared with us take a

look a question that I have for both Dr

mate and Daniel is the conflation of

anti-zionism with anti-Semitism and the

weaponization of anti-Semitism in the

context of the ongoing genocide who

doesa would you be able to share your

Reflections on the realities of this

weaponization of

anti-Semitism as well as the conflation

of this feeling of uh quote unquote

unsafe with that of uh being

uncomfortable confronting one's

privilege of bearing witness to an

ongoing genocide and apartheid

conditions in Palestine Daniel can I get

you to share your thoughts on

that yeah certainly well first of all

the conflation of anti-zionism and

anti-Semitism stems from it stems

inexorably in in fact in electively from

the conflation of Zionism and Judaism um

so the you know if you believe as

Zionist propaganda would have it and

tries to drill into the heads of young

Jewish North Americans like I was uh

that to be Jewish is to be identified

with this modern highly militarized

nationalistic and racist apartheid state

then of course any criticism of that

state by the transitive principle will

mean that you're attacking all Jews but

if you don't accept that frankly

anti-semitic premise because it supposes

that Jews have no identity other than a

national one and that the anti-semites

all throughout history we're correct

that we don't belong anywhere that we

should be segregated into uh ghettos and

other contained spaces of just us which

is essentially what Israel is it's a

ghetto with nuclear weapons uh then if

you don't accept that premise then

you're going to forcefully reject the

notion that to criticize it is to malign

the Jewish people Israel doesn't speak

for me it doesn't act for me and the

notion that if someone objects

to starving an entire population

murdering tens to hundreds of thousands

of people dispossessing close to a

million people and then reinforcing that

and and uh what can I say reimposing

that trauma every day of the last 75

years uh if anyone objects to that hates

me well that's actually an anti-semitic

uh principle and I uh I reject it Israel

is a distortion at Best of what

jewishness and Judaism are supposed to

be it's a complete misdirection and I

see it as the number one threat to the

safety and physical and mental and

emotional and spiritual well-being of

Jews

everywhere um Gabor uh you have a

question now from Kobe actually take a

look I was hoping you could discuss and

shed light onto the trauma that these

infants in Gaza and these young children

are going through and

will have for the rest of their life and

what can be done about it um it's going

to be horrible uh there were studies of

Palestinian kids done over 20 years ago

now that showed them amongst the most

traumatized people in the world uh with

mental health issues and behavior

problems and physical problems and

post-traumatic symptoms large percentage

of them what can we imagine is going to

the impact when so many of them are are

traumatized now orphaned right now

physically hurt right now emotionally

devastated right

now the

Palestinian Health Care system which

they're rightly very proud of was

struggling at the best of times to deal

with the trauma to their

children the future is almost

unimaginable they're struggling to deal

with every single wound right now now um

Daniel here is Katie with a very

interesting question and it touches on

some of the things that you've already

mentioned take a look I'd really love

for you both to speak to the ways that

your Jewish values have actually allowed

you to interrogate Zionism and unpack

Zionism for yourselves what wisdom have

you taken from Judaism what messages

have you taken from Jewish culture that

you think have benefited you and your

sort of capacity for social justice

capacity for unlearning propaganda um

and ability to interrogate this

brutality and the violence of the state

of Israel um there's just a deep uh well

of compassion that the Jewish tradition

has I believe the Hebrew word is Rahim

and it's said over and over again in

Hebrew uh liturgy in Hebrew scripture

and prayer relates very much to an

Arabic word that is spoken all the time

in um Muslim prayers as well um there

are other Jewish values that inform me

in particular one is um if I could say

it's the superpower of irony and what I

mean by that is by being Outsiders by

virtue of being Outsiders throughout

history Jews have been able to look a

scance at prevailing wisdom uh and

mainstream assumptions because we're

looking at it slightly skewed slightly

from the outside and of course we're

also we've been at the receiving end of

what power does to people and how it

corrupts moral values and so ay sense of

humor and ability to see through BS um I

think has served our people very well

and I myself now I'm the co-host of a

satirical podcast called bad hasbara

where all we do me and another Jewish

comedian Matt leeb uh is

every week the Israeli propaganda

machine serves us up more and more bad

hasbara bad propaganda to Piller and

make fun of and I think that's an

important skill being able to see

contradictions in hypocrisy and see

where not just the emperor but the

Empire has no clothes and then lastly

just a sense of justice uh righteousness

sedic um a sense of being called to

repair the world and bring it more into

alignment with what it was created

for um I would like to invite you now to

watch two recent news events related to

Israel's war on Gaza and then get your

reaction first here's Israel's prime

minister Netanyahu speaking to the US

Congress America and Israel must stand

together

um Daniel this was just a a little

fraction of what was uh Speech

punctuated by standing ovations I would

like to know if you were watching and

what were your thoughts when watching

that

speech you know I couldn't subject

myself to the entire thing I don't watch

cringe television and the whole thing is

so completely cringey it looks like

we're looking at a shot of the

Washington aquarium with all those

trained clapping seals uh clapping for

that genocidal warmonger who has nothing

but contempt for them and us here

um what can I say uh it is it's

abominable that this person is welcomed

into the highest Halls of power and that

he's subjected to uh that kind of

fawning agulation and I have to give my

utmost respect to the one me Democratic

member of Congress who dared both show

up and oppose which is Rashid Talib who

held up a sign saying war criminal that

is uh the the least he deserves in terms

of uh rebuke and uh a cold cold welcome

now uh Gabor we have a short sequence of

the mass displacement of Palestinians

inside the Gaza Strip take a

look here are family is being told to

evacuate hunis and you have been to Gaza

and to the West Bank you know these

places when you see scenes like this one

what goes through your

mind well on the pictorial level it's

impossible for me not to see

this as reminiscent of so many other

situations um in history

including situations when Jews had to

flee their places because of threat

but on the other hand it's what's been

going on for so long now so the transfer

and the displacement of the indigenous

population has been discussed as part of

the Zionist project going back for well

over 100 years so in a sense this is the

culmination and the apotheosis you might

say of the essence of the Zionist uh

intent which is to keep displacing these

people to make life impossible for them

so that all the land could be available

for Jewish occupation and settlement so

in that sense it's just the most

concrete and the most recent and the

most brutal but certainly not the first

manifestations of the essence of Zionist

ideology and uh anybody who doesn't see

that just hasn't studied history can I

ask you briefly to describe what we what

your trips to Gaza to the West Bank were

like I remember reading somewhere that

you said you cried for days at

witnessing the level of violence the

level of suffering of the

people the first time I went to the West

Bank and Gaza was in uh during the first

in when the situation was a lot better

than it is right

now and even then I cried every day for

two weeks because I just couldn't

believe that somehow I used to believe

that this was Justice that this was

history that this was the salvation of

the Jewish people to this to see the

suffering imposed on the Palestinians

most recently I was back there two years

ago in the West Bank I was working with

Palestinian women who' been tortured in

Israeli jails and were suffering

post-traumatic stress

disorder and again um it's almost

difficult to put it into words and all I

can say to anybody is if you don't know

what's going

on if you want to know what's going on

visit see for yourself of course you

can't visit Gaza right now but anybody

who go to the West Bank listens to the

Palestinians I remember when I was in

Gaza back in the 1990s and people were

living on these cement

HS and they said to me just tell them

tell them what it's like for us tell

them what happened to us

tell our

stories and those stories still have not

been told and now we're seeing it played

out every day on our screens and people

are still not listening it's

um infuriating to say the least we are

approaching the end of the show but

before we go we have a few more

questions from our community here's Nick

from let's give a damn take a

look we demand a free p Palestine I

demand this every single day in a

variety of ways and I know you do too

but what does it mean for you

practically as anti-zionist Jews what

does it mean for Palestine to be free

especially now that we know more clearly

than ever that Israel does not want to

live in peace with Palestinians and

wants to remove them from their land and

annihilate them if they don't leave I

know it's all Theory at this point but

lots of theories have been shared so in

your opinion what will it take very

practically for Palestine to be free

Daniel what is your take what will it

take for Palestine to be

free I try not to venture into having um

a political program or political

platform because if I wanted that I

would go into politics and learn to lie

about it for a living I truly don't know

what Freedom will take um I know that

certain things would have to end in

order order for that to be the case what

would replace them is an open question I

have my own vision of an

egalitarian uh Society from The River To

The Sea where Jews at least those who

can uh divest themselves uh of and

disabuse themselves of Zionist racist

ideology are free to live in peace and

equality one person one vote and equal

rights for all with the Palestinians of

that land uh and of course there would

have to be a lot of Truth and a lot of

reconciliation uh such as happened in

South Africa and other places um but the

occupation has to end the siege has to

end um Israel's apartheid mentality and

infrastructure and policies is going to

have to crumble um I shudder to think of

what it's going to take and I sometimes

don't know what to hope for um societies

like Israel who have gone completely mad

um often take a catastrophic defeat on

the order of a bloodbath in order to

wake up and give up the ghost um I pray

that it's that's not what it takes and

at the same time the status quo can't

continue so if I think of I think maybe

the qu the way I would reframe the

question is um not exactly what uh

framework do I see but what would

Palestine be free from a free Palestine

it would be free from racism be free

from supremacy of anyone over anyone and

then what would it be free to do uh it

would be free to actually become a land

that lives up to

its reputation and its name and its

tradition as a Holy One um and and an

embodiment of of the best that Humanity

has to offer and for that to happen um

the apartheid regime of Israel uh has to

be dismantled in some form or another

and reconstitute itself as as something

closer to what humanity is actually

capable of very well put um Gabor here's

one final question for you here's

Gabriel take a

listen I know that healing is an

individual thing right but healing is

also a collective thing something that

happens

collectively how do we after the war is

over hopefully sooner than

later meet the needs of the kids the

adults who have

been suffering from this war and how do

we both meet individually and how do we

heal as a

society you know it's all a matter of

conditions and under the present

conditions of The Siege mentality inside

Israel where people see themselves as

constantly under threat and they don't

understand what they Society is creating

the threat to Itself by how it treats

the Palestinian population and the rest

of the Middle East um until we have

conditions of Peace we can't even

conceive of what healing might look like

but if people are no longer under threat

and no longer perceive themselves under

threat and that

means ending the occupation ending the

apartheid ending the racism ending a

situation where Daniel and I could fly

to Israel tomorrow and become cens the

day after whereas Palestinians who were

born there can't even visit until we end

that situation we can't even talk about

healing if there was peace if there was

the sense of threat removed then healing

is possible both on the collective on an

individual

level but for that healing to even begin

peace needs to actually Prevail thank

you both so much Gabor and Daniel for

being part of the Stream

today and thank you all for watching

don't forget to stay in touch with us

online you can send us your questions

and suggestions with a hashtag or the

handle AJ's stream and we'll look into

them take care and I'll see you soon

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